S04.E10: War

[iMonrey]

I for one thought there was too much Thatcher this season. This show is called The Crown, not The Parliament. I realize the two are intertwined, but there were too many Thatcher-centric episodes where the royal family played supporting characters. It's not that I wanted the season to be all about Charles and Diana - far from it. I would have liked to see more episodes devoted to the Queen herself, and perhaps her other children. What we got of Andrew and Edward were little more than cameos. 

I also thought Gillian Anderson's portrayal of Thatcher bordered on parody. It may not be a fair comparison, but I much preferred Meryl Streep's interpretation of Thatcher, essentially capturing her essence without doing a full-blown, campy impression of her.

I enjoyed Josh O'Connor as Charles in Season 3, but he looked far too young in Season 4. He still looks like he's in his 20s and he should have been closer to 40 by the time this season ended. 

Both Charles and Diana came off very poorly, as compared to the canonization most stories give Diana. I still think Charles is far worse, however. What 19 year old girl wouldn't have been swept off her feet at the idea of marrying the Prince of Wales and becoming the future Queen of England? It's literally a fairy tale come true. She at least seemed to want to make a go of it. He never did. Perhaps for one split second, during their Australian trip, if this show is to be believed, but that quickly dissolved once he began to see she was stealing his thunder. 

I got used to Olivia Coleman and Tobias Menzies but they had comparatively little to do than Claire Foy and Matt Smith. I guess Elizabeth and Phillips' lives just weren't very interesting post 1980?

[ahpny]

21 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

given that there can be only 24 holders at a time, it is a big deal.

The Queen (and many others) undoubtedly thought it was big deal and she clearly tried to do something special and nice. But for those less enamored with the ceremonial trappings of royalty (presumably including Thatcher based on her early departure from Balmoral and various comments), its "big deal-ness" is less apparent. Indeed, based on more than decade of personal interactions between the Queen and Thatcher, a more astute and adroit Queen might have intuited that Thatcher would have little use such an honor. As with Charles' and Dianna's gift exchange in a prior episode, it may be another example of giving a gift with good intentions, but nevertheless missing the mark by choosing a gift that reflects the interests of the gift giver more than those of the gift receiver.

[dubbel zout]

There's not much else the queen can do, though, to show her appreciation/respect. She can't make a public statement about Thatcher's tenure as PM, she probably couldn't have thrown a dinner or anything along those lines. If Thatcher couldn't understand that, it's on her, not the queen.

[TaurusRose]

On 11/17/2020 at 2:08 AM, Umbelina said:

One of the most disgusting things Charles does starts this episode.  Running to mommy to tattle on his wife cheating, after never answering her calls, and blatantly carrying on with his married mistress is one of the most disgusting displays of lack of manhood, lack of  honor, and abundant hypocrisy I've ever seen.

Truth bomb if ever there was one.  I thought "you are such a weeny man, I can't imagine sex with you is fireworks and blood rushing through your body."  I was so glad, the Queen shot his shit down and kept it moving.

[Neurochick]

31 minutes ago, ahpny said:

The Queen (and many others) undoubtedly thought it was big deal and she clearly tried to do something special and nice. But for those less enamored with the ceremonial trappings of royalty (presumably including Thatcher based on her early departure from Balmoral and various comments), its "big deal-ness" is less apparent. Indeed, based on more than decade of personal interactions between the Queen and Thatcher, a more astute and adroit Queen might have intuited that Thatcher would have little use such an honor. As with Charles' and Dianna's gift exchange in a prior episode, it may be another example of giving a gift with good intentions, but nevertheless missing the mark by choosing a gift that reflects the interests of the gift giver more than those of the gift receiver.

I think that is true, and that might have been why Thatcher did not take the box; she was not happy with the gift.  But because she's from a generation where you didn't say how you felt, where feelings were considered a sign of weakness, the only thing she could do was curtsy, leave the room and not take the box.  I don't know if the Queen missed the mark since Thatcher never voiced her feelings to the Queen, leaving Balmoral early, aside.

Part of me felt that Thatcher was a bitch for not being appreciative (wouldn't they do THAT in her generation?), talk about lack of gratitude.  The Queen was her employer, not her husband.

[TaurusRose]

On 11/17/2020 at 5:51 PM, Roseanna said:

I have noticed that when a handsome man has nothing interesting to say, he doesn't look handsome any more whereas when I grow to like an interesting man, I begin like his looks. Of course I don't know how it is with men.

It's told that Camilla was sexy, warm, great fun and sporty. She had no sudden mood changes (unlike Diana), had common hobbies with Charles and, most of all, gave him admiration he had longed for all his life and cheered him up, in a way "mothered" him. Obviously she was perfect to him and has made him happy. 

We really need a barf emoticon.  The face that weeny boy depended on to cheer him up just underscores what a pathetic person he is despite being born a royal.  Egads!

Edited November 24, 2020 by taurusrose

[Neurochick]

14 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

Truth bomb if ever there was one.  I thought "you are such a weeny man, I can't imagine sex with you is fireworks and blood rushing through your body."  I was so glad, the Queen shot his shit down and kept it moving.

Very true.  I think she was pissed at Charles, after all SHE, the Queen was living a life that she really didn't want.  She was all about horses, riding and racing horses; that's what she would have done had her father not been thrust onto the throne.  The Queen was telling Charles, "I didn't get what I wanted in life either, so stop your fucking whining and grow up!"

[dubbel zout]

25 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

The Queen was [Thatcher's] employer, not her husband.

No, the British people (indirectly) were her employer. 

[Neurochick]

4 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

No, the British people (indirectly) were her employer. 

True, but Thatcher could have at least appeared grateful for the gift.

At least she could have taken the damn box.

[Umbelina]

34 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

True, but Thatcher could have at least appeared grateful for the gift.

At least she could have taken the damn box.

I thought she was moved beyond words for the gift, and so stunned she didn't even think about taking the box.

Now all these comments about it meaning nothing to her (not just yours!) make me wonder if I misinterpreted that scene.

I don't think I did.  I think Thatcher was already stunned by her ousting, then stunned again with, for a British person, an incredible honor from the Queen herself, while at her lowest point.

???

[AZChristian]

1 hour ago, Umbelina said:

I don't think I did.  I think Thatcher was already stunned by her ousting, then stunned again with, for a British person, an incredible honor from the Queen herself, while at her lowest point.

Or, after an entire season of trying to "one-up" the Queen she was pissed because she knew the Queen had won game, set and match of one-upmanship with that gift.  LOL.

[secnarf]

8 hours ago, taurusrose said:

We really need a barf emoticon.  The face that weeny boy depended on to cheer him up just underscores what a pathetic person he is despite being born a royal.  Egads!

🤢🤮

[Neurochick]

On 11/24/2020 at 5:26 PM, taurusrose said:

Here YMMV.  I never thought Diana was pretty.  She hardly pushed the cute button in my eyes.  But she had charisma and style.  She was genuinely interested in people she met (as shown when she hugged the little boy with AIDS), and she emanated a warmth and authenticity that people just didn't get from the rest of the royal family.  I also think her relationship with William and Harry, her apparent joy in being a mother, touched a lot of people.   Also, people were very aware of the age difference between Charles and Diana.  His stuffiness didn't work well with her free spirit and most people (outside of the royal family and their circle) didn't hold that against her.

I never thought she was pretty either, but she looked a lot better than the rest of the Royals, IMO.

Diana was in a lose/lose situation.  It didn't help that no woman had married into that family since the Queen Mum and that was decades ago, she had no one to talk to, no one could relate to her.

We are not all wired the same.  Some people are more anxious/sensitive/fearful/not thinking they had the 'rule book' of life/feeling like a square peg in a round hole, just because that's the way they're wired.  So for Diana, going into that family was hell; they didn't understand her, they thought something was wrong with her, that she was a problem. 

The scene from an earlier episode when Charles and Camilla are telling the joke about the hunter and the bear, to a group of their friends, was an interesting scene because it was obvious, at least to me, that they were completely in sync with each other.  I was like, now THOSE two should be married.  Camilla fit with Charles and Diana didn't.  That's the tragedy.

[Clanstarling]

On 11/16/2020 at 2:05 PM, Roseanna said:

I have read that Charles hugged his sons in private, but not in public for to him it would be an "act". So it seems that he interprets Diana's motives to be the same as his would have been if he had behaved like she (which is a quite usual way).

I seem to remember a scene with Phillip when Charles was a little boy - Phillip was going somewhere on a plane, and didn't hug Charles goodbye until they were inside the plan. He told Charles something like hugs were for private moments, out of the eyes of the press.

 

 

On 11/19/2020 at 5:44 AM, Ohiopirate02 said:

I feel like I saw Camilla's speech differently than others here.  I didn't see a hissy fit.  I saw Camilla finally telling Charles why his scheme will not work.  She knows it is not the right time for Charles to attempt to divorce Diana.  She's known for a while that it won't work, but this is the first time she spelled it out.  Her speech is also some major foreshadowing for the events we will see in season 5.  Charles took it completely the wrong way and lashed out at Diana.  

I saw it pretty much this way as well. Though I don't think he took it the wrong way, I saw it as him seeing he wasn't going to get his way and Diana's popularity was the reason.

On 11/20/2020 at 7:05 AM, Straycat80 said:

I wish they would have shown more on Fergie and Andrew as there was quite a lot of attention and controversy with their relationship.

I wish they would have shown Diana and Fergie. As I recall, for a short while they were kind of pals, with Fergie kind of egging her on to do less than royal things.

On 11/20/2020 at 8:20 AM, tennisgurl said:

I feel like Camilla has a much more realistic idea of what all of this is than Charles does. Camilla knows that if Charles leaves Diana and marries Camilla, she will be instantly vilified by the media and seen as the homewrecker who broke up the fairytale marriage of Charles and Diana, and being the Other Woman is bad enough, let alone that Diana is beloved world wide as the perfect princess, she knows that this will blow up all of their lives and make her the worlds most famous mistress, and that isn't something she wants. Charles seems to have built up this narrative in his head about how he and Camilla are this romantic star crossed love that is being kept apart by mean stupid Diana and that everyone will totally love Charles and Camilla when they hear their story, but Camilla can see how this will actually play out. They wont see a happy ending for the true love of Charles and Camilla, they will see a guy who cheated on his sweet and beautiful young wife and broke up his family for his mistress, who ALSO would leave her husband and children, a situation that will upset his family, society, and the world at large. She knows that she's the girlfriend and not the wife, and making the girlfriend the wife just...isn't what is done. I don't even think that Camilla was angry at Diana, she just knows that this isn't the right time for a divorce and that she doesn't want to be at the center of a huge scandal, the woman who stole Diana's husband and ruined her fairytale. Charles, however, is still clingily onto his fantasy that everything will be perfect if he just gets rid of Diana and can finally marry Camilla and that love will conquer all and the public will love them and forget all about Diana, so in his head, he takes Camilla's speech as Diana "making Camilla sad" so he lashes out at Diana. In general, "lash out at Diana" seems to be his go to solution for most of his problems. He cant stand Diana at this point, so he cannot contemplate why other people do, and he loved Camilla, so he assumes everyone else will love her, ignoring how bad this all looks to everyone who isn't him.

Yes, this.

On 11/21/2020 at 1:33 PM, Roseanna said:

Yes, but she had challenged, and won, the previous party boss, so she should have known that her turn to fall would become sooner or later. And if she humiliated her ministers as in Iron lady shows, it's a wonder that it didn't happen sooner.   

Ah, but just like a person who "broke up" a marriage, they rarely imagine the same will be done to them.

On 11/24/2020 at 2:26 PM, taurusrose said:

Here YMMV.  I never thought Diana was pretty.  She hardly pushed the cute button in my eyes.  But she had charisma and style.  She was genuinely interested in people she met (as shown when she hugged the little boy with AIDS), and she emanated a warmth and authenticity that people just didn't get from the rest of the royal family.  I also think her relationship with William and Harry, her apparent joy in being a mother, touched a lot of people.   Also, people were very aware of the age difference between Charles and Diana.  His stuffiness didn't work well with her free spirit and most people (outside of the royal family and their circle) didn't hold that against her.

Me neither. In still shots I thought she was rather plain, not prettier than Camilla at the same age, though gorgeously dressed. But in live footage, her charisma was undeniable.

[Trillian]

I actually thought the scene with HMQ and Thatcher was rather touching. Two women who had been, if not adversaries as such, in power-struggle one-upmanship relationship for years.  After one is defeated and publicly humiliated, the other reaches out with a gesture that says “We may have fought, and I may not have liked you, but I respect you”.   I didn’t see it as condescending, especially as the Queen pinned the medal (which conveniently perfectly matched Thatcher’s suit) on her herself.  I thought Gillian Anderson was at least trying to play it as Thatcher’s being overwhelmed by the gesture, but didn’t know what to say or do except to retreat (sans box) before she broke down, something which both women would’ve seen as sentimental nonsense.  Just my take, of course, but that’s what I saw. 

[Alexander Pope]

On 11/20/2020 at 7:05 AM, Straycat80 said:

I just finished this season. I loved it. I know a lot of this was fiction but I hope IRL Diana and Charles had some happy moments together and it wasn’t misery 24/7. 
I thought the acting was great by everyone and most of the actors looked like the real people. 
I wish they would have shown more on Fergie and Andrew as there was quite a lot of attention and controversy with their relationship.

This last episode was my favorite because it showed the some compassion with Diana hugging the little boy in the hospital. And I felt sorry for Margaret Thatcher, she really was treated badly by the Royals and the men around her, my heart broke for her breaking down after they voted her out of office. I loved the scene where Elizabeth finally acknowledged that she did a good job by giving her that medal. 
The next season can’t come fast enough for me. I love this series. 

I don't feel the least bit sorry for Thatcher, but I did enjoy watching her become human and suffer!

[swanpride]

What is there to feel sorry about? She was PM for a long time. Even if she had been a good PM, it's not good for the same PM staying around for forever. I mean, In Germany we don't have term limits, but there is some sort of unspoken agreement that four terms (16 years) is the upper limit even for a great chancellor, because everything else isn't good for democracy. Thatcher was longer in power than most PMs, and she would have never left if people hadn't forced her out of office, one way or another.

[Blakeston]

On 11/22/2020 at 8:37 PM, BradandJanet said:

I somewhere read speculation that Diana suffered from Borderline Personality Disorder, although she never got a diagnosis nor went through any serious therapy. BPDs can be extremely charming, but they are an empty pit of neediness and manipulation and cannot sustain relationships. Diana also cut people out of her life with no warning--her stepmother, Elton John, for two--and then welcomed them back later when she saw them as useful or her mood changed. Diana's upending Charles by throwing herself on her sword during the meeting with Elizabeth and Phillip was classic BPD manipulation. I've always felt a bit sorry for Charles, although he had plenty of his own issues. I wonder how Diana's life would have gone had she lived. 

I agree with this completely. When I met my husband he was in grad school for psychology, and there was a photo of Diana in one his textbooks as a good example of Borderline Personality Disorder. Everything I've read about her makes me strongly suspect that she had it.

It makes me feel sympathy for her, because it means she very likely had some major childhood trauma, and because I know it's a very difficult condition to live with. But it's also very difficult to be married to someone who has it. I think Diana was a drama queen who could never be satisfied in any marriage, and she was a brilliant manipulator who used every tool at her disposal (especially the press).

Charles obviously cheated on her a whole lot, and messed up badly by not telling her from the get-go that he was in love with Camilla. And with Diana being so young and inexperienced, I think he bears most of the blame for the marriage being a disaster. But I also think he's a pretty decent guy overall, and I strongly disagree with the very common idea that Charles was an ogre and Diana was his saintly victim.

The somewhat sympathetic portrayal of Charles in season three got my hopes up that this series might help dispel the whole ogre/saint thing. But instead they literally depicted him as an ogre, hunchback and all! (And no, he doesn't have that posture in real life, at all.)

If I watched this show without knowing anything about their real-life situation, I would think that Diana's only contribution to the failure of the marriage was giving poorly thought-out gifts, and that her affairs were entirely Charles's fault, and that Charles never made any effort to make the marriage work beyond a few days in Australia, and that Charles was an absentee father with no regard for his sons at all.

I don't buy any of that, especially not the absentee father part. His relationship with his sons has always been one of his saving graces. To depict him being so cold to the boys is a completely unfair smear. 

And it was the Queen who was unhappy about Diana supporting AIDS patients, not Charles! I rolled my eyes at the depiction of him screaming at her for "hugging the wretched."

I've seen a lot of people speculate that Peter Morgan is afraid of angering the royal family, but I don't agree with that. He mentioned Prince Philip's (alleged) affairs over and over and over again. And now he's depicted Charles as Satan himself. If there's anyone he's afraid to take on, it's the people who idolize Diana.

[buttersister]

Camilla is the mother Charles never had + Oedipal shit I don't even want to think about.

Thatcher's visit to the Queen was to play her "one last card." She was delusional enough to believe that HRM would dissolve Parliament. After the refusal, I think everything was a blur until she could be alone and sob.

[chaifan]

I really want to believe that the scene with the Queen giving the royal smack down to Charles was true.  Those words could have been delivered in the exact same way to countless powerful/political/royal men over the ages, including Phillip at a certain time.

I sort of want to believe Charles' unhinged rant at Diana was true, but for a totally different reason.  I really wonder if Charles, in real life, has that level of emotion in him.  Not just the ability to be an absolute dick, but the ability to emote, about something, anything.  That's what really struck me about the scene - not the words (which were 100% dickish) but the actual display of emotion. 

I know Charles/Diana was a big part of the royal life in the 80's, but I would have liked less of them this season.  It was almost becoming the Chuck & Di show.  What I would have liked to have seen was the decision making process behind Diana's solo tour to NYC.  Whose idea was it initially, I assume the Queen had to approve but what was that conversation like, was Charles on board, etc. 

In real life, was Thatcher awarded the Order of Merit in a private ceremony like that?  I would think for an honor that high it would be in a public ceremony, or at least having the chance to have family present.

Edited November 29, 2020 by chaifan

[swanpride]

Let's say I would have liked less Margaret more Anne, a little bit less Diana and Charles a little bit more politics.

Or, to be precise, I didn't need Margaret self-pity episode and would have rather seen more of Anne's Olympic career (and I am still miffled about the lack of her kidnapping last season), and I think that the last episode, which was ALL about Diana and Charles relationship, could have use a little bit less of it and way more about the end of the cold war.

[Cheezwiz]

19 hours ago, swanpride said:

Or, to be precise, I didn't need Margaret self-pity episode

I feel like ALL of the episodes with Margaret were self-pity episodes. It got incredibly tiresome. As much as I like Helena Bonham Carter, and as good as her performance was, she just didn't work for me as Margaret - the only thing she had in common with Margaret was was height.

Very curious to see what Leslie Manville (who is amazing) will do with the part in upcoming seasons.

[chocolatine]

On 11/24/2020 at 11:20 AM, taurusrose said:

I was so glad, the Queen shot his shit down and kept it moving.

"Might I request we do it like privy councillors? On our feet, to keep it brief." - I'm totally going to use that next time someone wants to have a conversation and I don't.

[TV Diva Queen]

Put me in the "Thatcher was moved beyond words" column.  and I too was fussing about the forgotten box.  I imagine Lillibet called Charteis and telling him to have the box sent over immediately to Downing Street.  

I was hoping to get a little bit of Diana dancing with Travolta in NYC.  

this is for me OK.  I want to see The Crown, too much Thatcher for me.  

Camilla pushed Charles to Diana because she knew Diana was weak and would "allow" their affair to continue.  

 

[kwnyc]

On 11/21/2020 at 4:33 PM, Roseanna said:

Yes, but she had challenged, and won, the previous party boss, so she should have known that her turn to fall would become sooner or later.

...something that many particularly power-hungry leaders forget; and they are terribly disappointed when they are dismissed by their party and/or country. 

[Umbelina]

56 minutes ago, TV Diva Queen said:

Put me in the "Thatcher was moved beyond words" column.  and I too was fussing about the forgotten box.  I imagine Lillibet called Charteis and telling him to have the box sent over immediately to Downing Street.  

I was hoping to get a little bit of Diana dancing with Travolta in NYC.  

this is for me OK.  I want to see The Crown, too much Thatcher for me.  

Camilla pushed Charles to Diana because she knew Diana was weak and would "allow" their affair to continue.  

 

I agree, I think Thatcher was moved, and possibly also shocked that her one last chance, an extreme long shot at best, wasn't going to work.

We always see a lot of the PM's but I agree, I was tiring of Thatcher.  The others were more interesting to me, but that may be because I so strongly disagreed with Thatcher's ideas.

Camilla knew Charles had to have an heir and a spare.  I agree, they both thought that Diana fit the bill, and wouldn't be a hindrance in their continuing "true love" affair.  (although I still doubt Camilla EVER loved Charles as much as she loved Andrew.)

[colormeblue]

On 11/28/2020 at 8:21 AM, Blakeston said:

I agree with this completely. When I met my husband he was in grad school for psychology, and there was a photo of Diana in one his textbooks as a good example of Borderline Personality Disorder. Everything I've read about her makes me strongly suspect that she had it.

If his textbook truly had Diana as a good example of BPD, that's TERRIBLE! As a psychologist, I can tell you that (at least in the US), we have rules against diagnosing someone without having examined them. It literally makes me sick to think a textbook would do that, especially since her sons are still around to be hurt by such a thing. 

I personally don't believe she had BPD. Did she have emotional problems? Yes, definitely, and for cause. But coming into the royal family at 19 as the wife of a cold, egocentric man-baby certainly didn't help. At first I thought the show was being a tad unfair to Charles because there's always blame to go around. However, after listening to a podcast about their relationship (their sources being Andrew Morton and Tina Brown's books about Diana and a semi-official authorized biography about Charles), I wondered if they weren't too easy on him.

The royal family sounds pretty horrible, not because they're awful people but because they're clueless. They're so used to incredible privilege and entitlement that they're blind as to how they come across or how normal people act. Was Diana perfect? Absolutely not. But she was uneducated, naive, lonely, insecure, and given minimal help to figure things out. She also was young, so very, very young. She was only 36 when she died.

The ending shot of the season was heartbreaking. Although I appreciated Philip (of all people!) offering her words of semi-support, it seemed like she realized for the first time that she was trapped in a loveless marriage within an emotionally-stunted family without even an ally to help her cope. I'm way older than she was at the time and even I cannot imagine the emotional desolation of such a situation. 

[AZChristian]

8 hours ago, colormeblue said:

The royal family sounds pretty horrible, not because they're awful people but because they're clueless. They're so used to incredible privilege and entitlement that they're blind as to how they come across or how normal people act.

They sure brought this out on the show.  Philip commenting that they were cutting expenses and "had" to sell their "small" yacht, and possible might have to move into "one of" their smaller palaces.  Poor them.  And the whole time, he's sitting 2 feet from a TV at the breakfast table and has a footman walk over to adjust the volume.  That footman was probably earning less per year than the 10,000 pounds that Edward was getting as his royal allotment.

[Roseanna]

9 hours ago, colormeblue said:

Did she have emotional problems? Yes, definitely, and for cause.

People aren't machines that just react to the cause. Different people react differently in the same circumstances.

Let's imagine a girl of the same age than Diana but with a happy childhood, good self-esteem and good education. Well, she would probably had been other plans in life than she.    

[Roseanna]

9 hours ago, colormeblue said:

after listening to a podcast about their relationship (their sources being Andrew Morton and Tina Brown's books about Diana

I have a little confidence not only memoirs of Diana but memoirs in general.

The brain doesn't store all happenings intact, we forget most and others memories change in time. We look happenings from our own POV and explain them in the way where we are a hero/heroine of the narrative and others are, if not villains or opponents, at least side persons. 

[Sweet-tea]

I thought the scene of the QE giving MT the medal was so affecting. MT looked so vulnerable and broken, and QE’s gesture was kind. It was a rare moment of affection from her made especially powerful given how cruelly she dismissed Diana. 

It seems the RF never realized Diana was an asset to them because the people loved her. She embodied warmth, compassion and someone who was relatable. They saw it as vulgar and grandiose behavior. Perhaps it was to an extent, because Diana did seem to crave approval. It’s understandable though given what she was dealing with living in the ice castle. 

Overall, I liked S4 but S1 is still my favorite. Next is S2, then S4. S3 was my least favorite. 

I wonder how long it will be before S5. It seems like there wasn’t as long of a gap between S3 and S4 but maybe I’m wrong about that. It seems like it took forever for S3. 

 

Edited December 6, 2020 by Sweet-tea

[AZChristian]

12 minutes ago, Sweet-tea said:

Overall, I liked S4 but S1 is still my favorite. Next is S2, then S4. S3 was my least favorite. 

I wonder how long it will be before S5. It seems like there wasn’t as long of a gap between S3 and S4 but maybe I’m wrong about that. It seems like it took forever for S3. 

 

I have the same rating for my favorite seasons.

The only thing I've found online is that the next series won't be aired until 2022.

[formerlyfreedom]

Just a gentle reminder - if you would like to talk about the British Royal family beyond this episode, please take it to one of the other available topics - posts in here that reference future events/individuals are removed. There is a Season 4: History Beyond topic, as well as the History Talk and Tabloid topics for outside the episode/season discussion. Thanks!

[PeterPirate]

One thing about the Camilla character, in this episode and all previous ones--she doesn't come across as all that unlikeable.  I chalk that up to the actress playing her.  

[CeeBeeGee]

 

On 11/17/2020 at 11:11 PM, Nire said:

What year did this episode end?  I was thinking 1990 or 1991 but I felt like all the children looked fairly old and wouldn't Eugenie have been a baby or a toddler?

I liked the season overall.  I feel like they managed to cover a lot in a very short period of time.

Yes, Eugenie was born in March of 1990. They probably didn't want to have to deal with babies with so many characters crammed into the set.

On 11/19/2020 at 8:44 AM, Ohiopirate02 said:

I feel like I saw Camilla's speech differently than others here.  I didn't see a hissy fit.  I saw Camilla finally telling Charles why his scheme will not work.  She knows it is not the right time for Charles to attempt to divorce Diana.  She's known for a while that it won't work, but this is the first time she spelled it out.  Her speech is also some major foreshadowing for the events we will see in season 5.  Charles took it completely the wrong way and lashed out at Diana.  

I agree, Camilla was just being pragmatic.

On 11/21/2020 at 1:27 PM, Spartan Girl said:

You know you have to admire how Diana just stood there holding on her dignity for dear life while Charles screamed at her. And how she stopped herself from throwing up after it was all over, as if she realized (finally) that wasn’t going to help matters.

Fantastic moment.

My thoughts as I watched this episode:

"She has resumed her affair with brazen disregard" Charles, you ignored her fucking phone calls!!!! You blew her off time and time again, whilst you cavorted with your mistress. You shit all over the gift she gave you, even as she explained how (as she thought) she learned you didn't like public gifts so this was private. She was making an effort--a sustained one--but ultimately FFS everyone needs some kind of comfort, some kind of validation. Jesus CHRIST. No wonder the BRF is worried about the show (Jezebel had an article with the headline "The Crown is undoing the decades-long rehabilitation for Charles and Camilla"). I'm seriously HATING show-Charles.

Absolutely LOVED Philip's shushing of Charles as he turned on the TV.

Charles looked so uncomfortable at the rugby game whereas Diana was just another mom there.

"What an ugly, avaricious piece of self-advancement that is..." Seriously, what the FUCK??? What the hell is WRONG with you, Charles?

His hypocrisy and self-obliviousness are utterly staggering.

Charles staring at Diana while their respective "teams" were planning the NYC trip was pissing me off. He's acting like such a bully toward her. You'd think someone who'd been properly bullied at boarding school would've learned some kindness--you know, that quality about which he's always whinging to his sister or his mother.

Thatcher's recitation of various world leaders commiserating with her seems suspiciously self-serving. I admit, I have little familiarity with the English system of self-government but didn't she challenge her predecessor as the Tory leader in exactly the same way, leading to her becoming PM a few years later? This is just business as usual, yes?

The scene where Diana was remembering crying out "I'm in hell--they treat me as if I were mad..."--is that Hewitt? I didn't get a good look at him in Avalanche.

What I noticed when she hugged the boy, was that she seemed to need to hug as much as the boy did. She was a very tactile, directly emotional person and that spoke to people.

God, Charles, fucking LISTEN to Camilla. She's a thousand times more aware because she's not blinded by privilege and raging jealousy that SHE'S not the center of attention.

I can't even repeat his shitty, calculated insults to her in that last meeting. I absolutely detest Show Charles. He is figuratively (and literally, with that grotesque stoop) warped by his inability to see anything other than from his exquisitely privileged perspective. To reduce her loving gesture to that boy, that boy suffering from a deadly virus that has led his community to shun him--to mock that embrace, to call it a calculatedly vulgar antic? Jesus H. Christ. And oh my GOD, screaming--literally screaming--at Diana because she hurt poor Camilla's widdle feelings? That the fucking hell is wrong with you? Why should Diana GAF about that? Bellowing like a thug BECAUSE I CARE ABOUT THAT. So? What the hell is wrong with you? Why in HELL should Diana care if, because she hugged a little boy afflicted with AIDS, Camilla is somehow impacted by that? "If you hurt her [no, Diana succeeding at a difficult task has nothing to do with Camilla], you hurt me"--why should Diana care about that? You've made it very clear, you don't want her, you don't love her. Jesus H. Christ, what a useless, feckless POS.

"I suggest you take it up with the people who arranged it." YOU MADE IT HAPPEN. Jesus, will you EVER get off the endless goddam "I'm a viccctimmmm" wheel? YOU proposed. YOU pursued Diana. You were 13 years older than she was. You absolutely knew what you were getting into and what the stakes were. YOU. YOU have the primary blame for this situation.

God, I actively despise him at this point. SHOW Charles. I have more nuanced feelings re: IRL Charles.  

I was proud of her when she finally stopped herself from purging after the fight with Charles. Good for you, girl. He's not worth it.

"It's the marriage. I have done my best..." NO. YOU. HAVEN'T. Fuck you, Charles.

Elizabeth reading him for filth was...*chef's kiss*...unbelievably gratifying.

Philip was really very sweet with Diana--I like him the most this season.  I loved him saying "we all think he's nuts" but I wonder how Philip (or Elizabeth, for that matter) would react if he had heard the vile things Charles was saying to her. His optimism is sadly misinformed.

[retired watcher]

On 11/15/2020 at 2:56 PM, swanpride said:

So...all in all I think I liked this one slightly better than the last season, but honestly, I still could use a little more history and a little less circular whining. I think that four episodes about the woes of Charles and Diana were one too much (and honestly, the idea that "he is a mature man and she is a child" sounds kind of ridiculous considering that she acts way more like an adult than he does in the show).

But I think what bothered me the most is that they just skipped over what Thatcher actually did to the country (other than vague mentions about it being different than beforehand and even more vague mentions regarding Europe) and over this small insignificant event which is the end of the cold war. I mean, I know that they can't cover everything, nor should they, and I certainly didn't expect a whole episode about it, but I certainly expected more than an aside mention of Bush, Kohl and Gorbatschow. I admit, I was kind of looking forward to see the reaction of the royals to it (After all, it is one of the top ten events which happened between the 1950s and now for sure).

Plus, its a good thing that the next season is already announced, because this one feels unfinished. Which, frankly, it didn't have to be. They just could have ended with the notion of an end of an era between Thatcher leaving and British troops leaving Germany, thus basically concluding the aftermath of WWII. But due to the huge focus on Charles and Diana, this feels like half of a story, because everyone KNOWS that is half of a story.

But I guess most people would want exactly that from a show like this, as much Charles of Diana as possible. I might be one of the few who is actually more interested in events which haven't been part of every single royals special in the last 20 years.

I too thought there was too much Charles and Diana. I lived through all of this time period and would have liked more history and less soap opera.

[sistermagpie]

I'll never get over Charles' dismissing Diana's gesture at the hospital by saying, "You think we couldn't hug the wretched" given that not only was there a running theme about how his mother was uncomfortable with hugs but if he was telling the truth it would simply mean that yes, of course we could be showing affection to a group of suffering people--in this case a child--who are being treated like lepers, but we choose not to do it, thus making us superior! Ha!

But then, seems the ro

On 11/16/2020 at 8:16 PM, leighdear said:

On the contrary, many of us who were grown adults, working, and raising families at that time are more interested in what we did NOT read in PEOPLE magazine each week.  

Just as we didn't need to see the wedding of Diana & Charles, because we watched it when it happened.  

I think the depth of political & social commentary about the events of the time in these threads thus far should indicate that we're not all superficial twits just looking for more speculation about who Harry's daddy might be.  

But the show is about those closest to the crown--the monarch and their heirs. History doesn't actually matter any more than it matters to the characters on Mad Men, imo. For these people, Charles & Diana weren't People magazine, they were holding their fate in their hands.

1 hour ago, CeeBeeGee said:

  On 11/19/2020 at 8:44 AM, Ohiopirate02 said:

I feel like I saw Camilla's speech differently than others here.  I didn't see a hissy fit.  I saw Camilla finally telling Charles why his scheme will not work.  She knows it is not the right time for Charles to attempt to divorce Diana.  She's known for a while that it won't work, but this is the first time she spelled it out.  Her speech is also some major foreshadowing for the events we will see in season 5.  Charles took it completely the wrong way and lashed out at Diana.  

Yeah, I didn't think Camilla was upset by anything having to do with Diana and at all, just a bit horrified at the idea that Charles' might bring her into some public battle with her that Camilla knew she would lose. And not unfairly either, since Camilla is the person who's actually enjoyed the best position in this triangle for years. Charles then turned it into Camilla not only being hurt, but being hurt by Diana. Really she just didn't want Charles waving her like a red flag in front of the bull that was Diana's public.

On 11/28/2020 at 9:21 AM, Blakeston said:

I agree with this completely. When I met my husband he was in grad school for psychology, and there was a photo of Diana in one his textbooks as a good example of Borderline Personality Disorder. Everything I've read about her makes me strongly suspect that she had it.

It makes me feel sympathy for her, because it means she very likely had some major childhood trauma, and because I know it's a very difficult condition to live with. But it's also very difficult to be married to someone who has it. I think Diana was a drama queen who could never be satisfied in any marriage, and she was a brilliant manipulator who used every tool at her disposal (especially the press).

Charles obviously cheated on her a whole lot, and messed up badly by not telling her from the get-go that he was in love with Camilla. And with Diana being so young and inexperienced, I think he bears most of the blame for the marriage being a disaster. But I also think he's a pretty decent guy overall, and I strongly disagree with the very common idea that Charles was an ogre and Diana was his saintly victim.

The somewhat sympathetic portrayal of Charles in season three got my hopes up that this series might help dispel the whole ogre/saint thing. But instead they literally depicted him as an ogre, hunchback and all! (And no, he doesn't have that posture in real life, at all.)

If I watched this show without knowing anything about their real-life situation, I would think that Diana's only contribution to the failure of the marriage was giving poorly thought-out gifts, and that her affairs were entirely Charles's fault, and that Charles never made any effort to make the marriage work beyond a few days in Australia, and that Charles was an absentee father with no regard for his sons at all.

I don't buy any of that, especially not the absentee father part. His relationship with his sons has always been one of his saving graces. To depict him being so cold to the boys is a completely unfair smear. 

 

When the truth starting coming out in the press I thought the real Diana seemed like she would have been very difficult to live with, but the bare facts make it hard to not tilt the story away from Charles. He was the grown man who married a young, sheltered woman and threw her into a world she was unprepared to deal with and he really didn't seem to intend on taking full responsibility for that. It's just hard to think of this situation without imagining Charles thinking she'd be easy to control, and one of his consistent traits on the show has been his delusions of himself as the truly interesting, rebellious one in the family. So it seems hard to imagine the show doing the story without Charles being jealous and resentful and while Diana seems like she could be really difficult in other situations, she's always going to be the one who's outnumbered and loved in ways that can't be completely planned on her part.

Charles in the series (and irl, honestly) sort of reminds me of Mr. Rochester with his first wife in Jane Eyre. Oh, you married a woman just because she was beautiful and feel cheated because it turned out she had an actual personality? One that was destructive and could get out of control and now you're tied to her? Serves you right! 

[Wiendish Fitch]

8 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Charles in the series (and irl, honestly) sort of reminds me of Mr. Rochester with his first wife in Jane Eyre. Oh, you married a woman just because she was beautiful and feel cheated because it turned out she had an actual personality? One that was destructive and could get out of control and now you're tied to her? Serves you right! 

 

[WatchrTina]

17 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Charles in the series (and irl, honestly) sort of reminds me of Mr. Rochester with his first wife in Jane Eyre. Oh, you married a woman just because she was beautiful and feel cheated because it turned out she had an actual personality? One that was destructive and could get out of control and now you're tied to her? Serves you right! 

Erm, the first Mrs. Rochester's "actual personality" was that of being dangerously psychotic -- a condition that ran in her family and which was hidden from him during their courtship.  So . . . perhaps not a fair analogy to Diana's bulimia and craving for approval.  

And while I tend to sympathize more with Diana as the "outsider" to the royal family, I can also spare some sympathy for Charles.  A failed marriage must be awful.  (Similarly, I also have a fair amount of sympathy for Mr. Rochester.)

 

 

[sistermagpie]

40 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

Erm, the first Mrs. Rochester's "actual personality" was that of being dangerously psychotic -- a condition that ran in her family and which was hidden from him during their courtship.  So . . . perhaps not a fair analogy to Diana's bulimia and craving for approval.  

 

Oh, I wasn't comparing the two wives, but the victimization of the highborn men. (Though there's a reason The Madwoman in the Attic because a central figure in feminist literary criticism.)

Edited December 9, 2020 by sistermagpie

[blackwing]

Charles is truly a supreme ass.  He honestly thinks that Diana does all the charity work and whatnot simply to make Camilla look bad?  Truly delusional.  He thinks that Diana always makes everything about her because she wants the spotlight?  It's the other way around.  Everything is always about him.  He is weak and mercurial and insecure and he can't stand it when people are better people than him.

From what was depicted in this show, what I see at the time is that Charles and Camilla deserved each other.  They were both awful people.

On 11/17/2020 at 3:28 AM, DarkHorse said:

I saw it more as they would ostracize her and given their power she would find herself locked right out of things. Although given the benefit of hindsight it was ominous. 

I like what he said to her and to me it really summed up the situation. She joined a family business basically where the Queen is CEO and you do what you are told and make the family look good. Diana, whether it be out of boredom, by chance or some kind of ambition wanted to be the star and she kept upstaging the boss. You never do that. 

I enjoyed watching the Queen give it to Chuck as well, long overdue. No one was actually stopping him from spending time with Camilla or whoever they just wanted it all to appear like a happy family on the surface.

 

I was glad that Philip talked to Diana although I thought he should have had this conversation long ago.  When he met her at Balmoral and took her on a 5:30 am hunt, I thought they really clicked.  He married into the family, she was potentially doing the same.  But then when there were troubles he never gave her any advice or support.

I do agree with him that everyone’s role in the family takes a backseat to the Queen, but I disagree with him with his characterisation that she wanted to be the most important.  I think Diana had a good heart and truly loved people.   She didn’t hug the unwanted kid with AIDS for a photo op or to get more publicity.  She did it because she was a truly compassionate person.

I wish she had told Philip that all she wanted was to feel loved and wanted by the family.  She has never gotten that on the show.  Not one of the royal women took her under their wing to guide and give advice.  

On 11/17/2020 at 8:33 AM, Jeeves said:

I was also distracted by Maggie T leaving HM's presence without the box for her Order of Merit. I thought, well, HM does have many people working for her who can deliver the box to the Thatcher house later. But how interesting that my mind would go there at all. And now I know it wasn't just me who noticed the box.

I was more distracted by the fact that she didn’t even say thank you.  Or goodbye.  She just turned around and walked out.  

Edited December 10, 2020 by blackwing

[blackwing]

Oh and I noticed they included Fergie in the family photo scene, and she looked so incredibly happy to be there.  Poor woman.  Good thing she had the distinctive flaming red hair otherwise I would have thought she was an extra.  I’m sure the show only included her in the show because of her popularity at the time.

Meanwhile, I have no idea which one on the show is supposed to be Anne’s husband.  I’ve seen “Mark Phillips” in the credits so I know he’s been in at least one episode but it’s like he’s a complete nonentity.  Pretty much sums up Anne on this show.9

[txhorns79]

17 minutes ago, blackwing said:

I was more distracted by the fact that she didn’t even say thank you.  Or goodbye.  She just turned around and walked out.  

I just took it all as her being overwhelmed by the gesture.  If I remember the scene right, she looked as though she was about to burst into tears, and this kind of recognition would have been a huge capstone on her career as she went into the sunset.

[Roseanna]

5 hours ago, blackwing said:

I disagree with him with his characterisation that she wanted to be the most important.  I think Diana had a good heart and truly loved people.   She didn’t hug the unwanted kid with AIDS for a photo op or to get more publicity.  She did it because she was a truly compassionate person.

Why can't she had more motives than just one? She feels compassion toward people who are sick and especially kids, she is already decided to shake hands with bare hands, it's natural to her to hug also people that are stranger to her, she knows that the pictures are taken and they can be used to dispel the stigma towards AID, she isn't shy to act naturally in front of cameras - and, whether consciously or not, she also wants and needs good publicity in her fight against Charles and the royal family. 

JFK once let himself photographed with his son in the pool order to make himself seen as a good dad and dispel rumors about his marriage created picture about Jackie's long holiday in Italy. Pictures about the John-John jumping without hesitation into his dad's arms were good publicity but they were also true: the toddler naturally couldn't fake. 

[Spartan Girl]

On 12/8/2020 at 9:08 PM, CeeBeeGee said:

Absolutely LOVED Philip's shushing of Charles as he turned on the TV.

Haha me too! For once Philip not giving a crap about Charles was appropriate. “Yeah yeah, you’re marriage sucks and you’re playing the victim. Big deal. Thatcher’s getting ousted!”

[AZChristian]

11 hours ago, blackwing said:

Meanwhile, I have no idea which one on the show is supposed to be Anne’s husband.  I’ve seen “Mark Phillips” in the credits so I know he’s been in at least one episode but it’s like he’s a complete nonentity.  Pretty much sums up Anne on this show.9

Mark Phillips apparently appears in 4 episodes.  I think he's in the picture below, walking behind Prince Philip.  This was from the Balmoral Test episode.  He is listed in the credits somewhere after "2nd Balmoral Guest" and "Maid."

[PeterPirate]

On 12/9/2020 at 8:41 PM, txhorns79 said:

I just took it all as her being overwhelmed by the gesture.  If I remember the scene right, she looked as though she was about to burst into tears, and this kind of recognition would have been a huge capstone on her career as she went into the sunset.

That's my interpretation too.  Thatcher also kneeled very gracefully before she left.  

I'm also in the camp of those who think leaving the box behind was not important.  Thatcher got the freakin' Order of Merit, for crying out loud.  

Also, I have been thinking that Philip's warning to Diana, and The Queen Mother's statement that Diana will be "broken", were rather chilling harbingers about how certain events will be portrayed next season.  

[endure]

On 11/16/2020 at 11:08 PM, Umbelina said:

One of the most disgusting things Charles does starts this episode.  Running to mommy to tattle on his wife cheating, after never answering her calls, and blatantly carrying on with his married mistress is one of the most disgusting displays of lack of manhood, lack of  honor, and abundant hypocrisy I've ever seen.

As for history?  I enjoyed the portrayal of Thatcher, and her downfall, after the near crisis with the Queen interfering earlier.   While I think a few other aspects of "history" would have been, or could have been, better?  There are plenty of shows out there for that, and youtubes of history, and we all know it anyway.

Focusing on those that directly had impact on THE CROWN is understandable to me, and the Thatcher/Queen conflicts and understandings both?  Did that well.

I loved that the Queen pinned that order on the defeated Thatcher, but I was distracted when she then left without the box.  It's not good that I was so taken out of the scene by that, the woman can't possibly always wear it, and wouldn't the box be almost as meaningful as the ribbon for her?  ha...yeah, I know, it's dumb.

I dislike Thatcher and her Ayn Rand views immensely, but there was something to admire in her as well.  I think the show walked that line fairly well, as it has with the other PM's.

I completely felt the same about the box especially considering Elizabeth made a point of saying something to the effect that it is usually presented in the box but she wanted to pin it on Margaret herself.  In my mind I am certain the queen would have had the box couriered over to her residence.

[andromeda331]

Wow, just when you think Charles can't get any worse he does. That scene of him yelling at Diana for "hurting" Camilla was so horrible. Everything he said was so nasty. That meeting between her and his people wasn't much better. Charles and his men were trying to use her mental issues to convince her not to go on the trip? Trying to psych her out to do a bad job? Or just stay home? It was messed up.  

I'm glad the trip was successful. I'm really glad they showed Diana hugging the boy. That was such a huge deal back then. People were so scared of AIDS to the point of scared to touch people with AIDS. Seeing her hugging a boy with AIDS did so much good. I still remember that moment. It was amazing. 

I loved Elizabeth's smack down on Charles. It was awesome and correct. I liked Philip's talk with Diana although I do agree it should have come sooner.

I still wish they would give us a little more insight into Camilla. I do agree with others that she doesn't seem to want to leave Andrew. She never once says she doesn't love her husband or their life together. She seems fine with their arrangement. 

I enjoyed seeing Thatcher's downfall. Its really hard to like someone who wouldn't put sanctions against the apartheid. She's really been terrible all season.

I wish they gave Anne more to do this season.

Edited December 20, 2020 by andromeda331

[Clanstarling]

4 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I enjoyed seeing Thatcher's downfall. Its really hard to like someone who wouldn't put sanctions against the apartheid. She's really been terrible all season.

Me too. I'm not interested in humanizing her in any way. I've hated her all along, and I'm not even British.