The Vow

[Maysie]

21 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

How convenient to be able to call “Chaaaarles” for help. 

I struggle with Catherine because I think the situation with India had to suck, but damn, she's pretentious. That whole scene just smacked of a set up so she could name drop him.

This series continually buries the lede. They start with Sarah, Mark, Bonnie, etc on the beach (again) burning their shame. I understand why they did that because it jibed nicely with Nancy's shame lecture. But what did that whole thing add? We've been hearing for a month's worth of programming now how bad Mark and Sarah feel about bringing others into this and how they want to make amends, etc. The beach scene was nothing new. Then all that time with Catherine - it bored me and I didn't feel like it added anything. I understand that it's probably her old c-list name and connections that jump started the investigation from the state again, but ffs, I don't want to watch and listen to her drive around in her car, talking to whomever on the phone and then watch everyone kiss her ass at Frank's house. Cut to the chase!!!! I was happy to see Sarah come up with the idea to actually use their multi level marketing as a means to try to get people to come out of the woodwork - that was a scene that was worth seeing and it made a lot of sense.

Keith.1, when he was doing Consumer Buyline or whatever it was, was really enlightening. He also looked like a baby.

Toni was a very interesting twist - they could have done a deeper dive on that. And the fact that after the time with Susan last week, we just got a hint that she actually succeeded to some extent in fighting off the many many lawsuits - is that true? If so, my respect for her has increased even more. The audio was interesting from her trial and wish they would do more stuff along those lines. If they had shown some of the barriers she and Toni and Barbara faced over the years, as well as gone into more depth about how Keith turned them into pariahs, it might help pave the way for where we are with Mark and Sarah and their concerns, etc. It feels backwards to me.

My one question about Toni is did Keith really get the FBI to investigate her? My husband and I gave that one a huge side eye because it just seems like that's a really big order. And if that's true, then I want to learn more about that kind of stuff because it implies he has a pretty significant reach.

1 hour ago, BucFan said:

Of course we couldn’t get through this episode without see a picture of Sarah’s brand. 

I think the series should have been named "The Brand."

 

[MicheleinPhilly]

SO. MUCH. FILLER. This was the first episode where I found myself thinking, "Ugh. How many more episodes are there? I'm bored with all of this." 

Again, with the screwed up chronology. Toni's story and all of the stuff about Consumer Buyline and the founding of ESP should have been introduced WAY earlier in the series, like episode 1. Nancy Salzman is a fascinating character because as someone upthread mentioned, I think she is the true mastermind behind the entire enterprise. She knew about Keith's shadiness from the Consumer Buyline fiasco and didn't immediately kick him to the curb? Uh-uh. There is something tremendously shady about that woman and I feel horribly for anyone who may have been a patient of hers. 

The entire "going to Frank's house to compile evidence" thing was so awkward. There was a moment about 2 minutes after Catherine arrived when she was fiddling with her phone and I thought, "She's on Expedia looking for a hotel room." The whole thing was just weird. Also, do Mark and Bonnie essentially live with Catherine at this point? How many clips of them sitting around her living room making phone calls do we have to endure??? Same with the gatherings at Sarah and Nippy's. This shit just isn't compelling. 

Now Susan's questioning of the Bronfmans and everyone else associated with this shit show? THAT I could watch 9 episodes of. EASILY. 

 

[DanaK]

Nancy Salzman going on and on in that video that someone being fearful and disgusted is their fault and they need to work on themselves is all kinds of chilling. It’s clear, now that we know what their tricks were, that it’s a process to tamp down someone’s fear response and defang their ability to sniff out BS and wrongness going on so NXIVM can use them to their own purposes. If your alarm bells aren’t going off with that kind of BS talk (which we’ve been hearing throughout the series), something is seriously wrong

[Twopper]

16 hours ago, Maysie said:

I struggle with Catherine because I think the situation with India had to suck, but damn, she's pretentious. That whole scene just smacked of a set up so she could name drop him.

And we knew she meant Prince Charles even before the producer person asked.   Doesn't NY have a law against talking on a cell phone while driving unless it is hands-free?  That was a total waste unless we find out later that Prince Charles did something to help get India out.  Prince Charles has enough problems with his brother and Epstein. 

And then she mentioned the Dalai Lama again as well if I recall.  I am actually shocked that he met with Raniere.  What was the sash he put around Raniere's neck? 

I think they need a group meeting with Mike Rinder.

By the way Frank's house didn't make me think of the Addams family; it reminded me more of the house Jon Benet Ramsey lived in.

 

[MicheleinPhilly]

2 minutes ago, Twopper said:

And we knew she meant Prince Charles even before the producer person asked.   Doesn't NY have a law against talking on a cell phone while driving unless it is hands-free?  That was a total waste unless we find out later that Prince Charles did something to help get India out.  Prince Charles has enough problems with his brother and Epstein. 

 

That was just an opportunity for her to name drop. Like in the beginning of the series when they kept going on about her royal lineage only to reveal that her mother was the Princess of a country that no longer exists. 🙄

[mamadrama]

When I first started writing novels in my late teens/early 20s, my biggest problem was that I wanted to show EVERYTHING. I couldn't just let the character end chapter 3 by having a revelation and then start chapter 4 with that character kicking ass with their newfound knowledge. Nope. I had to have them getting the revelation, eating dinner, changing into pajamas, going to bed, waking up, having breakfast...I couldn't wrap my head around having my character going from Point A to Point B without all the unnecessary filler.

This reminds me of that.

[meep.meep]

You get the feeling that this is being made by the people who failed outlining in elementary school.  We're apparently taking the scenic route!

[Proclone]

20 hours ago, Maysie said:

I struggle with Catherine because I think the situation with India had to suck, but damn, she's pretentious. That whole scene just smacked of a set up so she could name drop him.

 

I don't necessarily blame Catherine for the way that exchange came across.  She was talking to her mother, I imagine she does refer to her second cousin once removed by his first name when talking to family, I would find it weirder if she didn't.  That being said, there was no reason to show that phone call, it was just more padding.  They could have simply had Catherine say to the camera that she was asking family to contact the Dalai Lama and ask him to renounce Keith since he had met with him.  

She might be pretentious, but honestly Catherine is the only person I really like in this documentary (at least of the people that have been featured repeatedly).  Mark and Sarah seem to pay a lot of lip service to getting people out, but Catherine is the only person who really seems like she's taking any action.  Granted I know it's because her daughter was still in it at the time, but she seems to be the only person with any sense of urgency to shutting down an organization that abuses women.  Even Frank came across as a bit wishy washy when Catherine tried to pin him down to a time they could meet.

 

2 hours ago, mamadrama said:

When I first started writing novels in my late teens/early 20s, my biggest problem was that I wanted to show EVERYTHING. I couldn't just let the character end chapter 3 by having a revelation and then start chapter 4 with that character kicking ass with their newfound knowledge. Nope. I had to have them getting the revelation, eating dinner, changing into pajamas, going to bed, waking up, having breakfast...I couldn't wrap my head around having my character going from Point A to Point B without all the unnecessary filler.

This reminds me of that.

 

All this.  The producers seem to think we are super interested in the details of what it took to take ESP down, and it's not remotely as interesting as they think it is.  I think the broad strokes of it would be interesting, but they are getting into the minutiae and it's boring.  And what's worse is they don't even seem to be paying off the filler with interesting revelations.  If anything they cut away from the interesting stuff, back to the filler.

[Armchair Critic]

The Lost Women of NXIVM, just started watching, it features Frank Parlato and gives more info about Pam.

https://www.investigationdiscovery.com/tv-shows/lost-women-of-nxivm/full-episodes/the-lost-women-of-nxivm

[HC87]

Of course Sarah had avacado toast.....😅

[kitmerlot1213]

I know this is beyond petty but how the HELL does this schlubby little troll pull such attractive women?  Toni Natalia, Barbara Bouchey and Kristin Keefe just to name a few were much cuter then Rainere and they just seemed like they were completely under his spell-I just don't get it.

And it is rather frightening that Nancy used her knowledge of hypnotism to help Rainere control people and get them to do what he wants--that is some dark crap.

 

Edited October 7, 2020 by kitmerlot1213

[truebluesmoky]

Mark is on Leah Remini and Mike Rinder’s Scientology: Fair Game podcast this week. I just started listening.

[mamadrama]

2 hours ago, kitmerlot1213 said:

I know this is beyond petty but how the HELL does this schlubby little troll pull such attractive women?  Toni Natalia, Barbara Bouchey and Kristin Keefe just to name a few were much cuter then Rainere and they just seemed like they were completely under his spell-I just don't get it.

And it is rather frightening that Nancy used her knowledge of hypnotism to help Rainere control people and get them to do what he wants--that is some dark crap.

 

Nancy oughta get a hell of a sentence for her part. Alas...

And he apparently wasn't even good in bed. This wasn't a case of Al Pacino as the devil, she doesn't know what hit her, shit. Of course HE had to orgasm, because his semen had special powers, but her satisfaction was rare and she wasn't allowed to complain.

Edited October 7, 2020 by mamadrama

[Tachi Rocinante]

13 hours ago, truebluesmoky said:

Mark is on Leah Remini and Mike Rinder’s Scientology: Fair Game podcast this week. I just started listening.

Thanks for this.  Definitely worth a listen.

[3girlsforus]

So I’ve made it through episode 5 and I keep trying to figure out why I don’t find this compelling or all that sad. I loved Leah Remini’s show on Scientology so I thought for sure this would be engaging. NXiVM is really a Scientology want-to be type program. Reniere just isn’t as good at it as the Scientology leaders. But I couldn’t figure out why I haven’t been drawn into the story the same way. Sure Leah Remini and Mike Rinder are more personable but still. I finally figured it out. Leah and Mike did their show in a fully upfront and honest way. They clearly were taking all kinds of crap and they didn’t care. They acknowledged their actions and clearly felt awful about it. But they did the show anyway - not for their own glory - but to help people trying to get out and to draw attention to try to stop Scientology from continuing to be so awful. 

I feel like Sarah and Mark want to  ride the ‘anti-NXIVM’ wave to fame and fortune. They went into NXIVM to make money and ‘better their career’ and when that all fell apart they are using NXIVM in a different way to get those same results. I don’t doubt for a minute that they are upset in finding out that it was a crock of crap. I suspect they do feel a little badly about it too. But I think they mostly are upset about what happened to them, not so much about others. Mark even seemed upset at the idea that anyone other than them would have any credit for exposing NXIVM. He really dislikes the Frank Report. If that website is truly suspect and unreliable as he said then they should tell people why. He just came across as sour grapes that it wasn’t him. 

Sarah’s husband and Bonnie seemed to have more real reactions to the whole thing. Bonnie knew it was crap and was willing to do what it takes to get out. I’m not sure she really wanted a public fight about it but that’s ok. She also doesn’t seem to be sitting there waiting for the thank you parade. Sarah’s husband also seemed to go from ‘NXiVM is wonderful’ to ‘WTF i’m out of here’ immediately when he found out they branded his wife. To me that is also a very real reaction and he seems genuinely upset that he wasted so much of his life on this stuff but doesn’t seem nearly as caught up in getting accolades for exposing it. 

Edited to add.... I have adult children so I do understand that your child is always your child no matter how old they get, but Catherine’s constant ‘This cult stole my child’ thing got really old fast. She isn’t a child. She’s an adult. She didn’t get kidnapped. She joined a group with her mother and stayed even though her mother left. So yes - Catherine should be horrified that her daughter’s been branded. She should want her out of the cult. But don’t wail like they kidnapped and brainwashed an 8 year old. I would be ok if she said she wanted her daughter out but something about wailing that they have her CHILD just grates. 

Edited October 7, 2020 by 3girlsforus

[LeGrandElephant]

On 10/4/2020 at 9:26 PM, ninjago said:

She enabled Keith's raping of her 12 year old dog walker.

They haven’t mentioned this in the show, have they? I’m starting to think they’ll never mention the worst stuff - the 12 year old, or the Mexican teenager kept locked up for years. 

[LeGrandElephant]

India’s text seemed to be asking Catherine to visit - why wouldn’t Catherine jump at the opportunity to visit and talk to her in person? 

[DanaK]

1 hour ago, LeGrandElephant said:

India’s text seemed to be asking Catherine to visit - why wouldn’t Catherine jump at the opportunity to visit and talk to her in person? 

As I think Cat and Frank surmised, it sounded more like something Keith would say. If he’s the one really saying it, then it smells like a trap of some sort. I’d be suspicious too

[3girlsforus]

On 9/29/2020 at 3:07 PM, Maysie said:

A dumb question: what is "chargeable" in instances like NXIVM? Catherine went to "30 Rock" (as she pointed out) and got to air her concerns (and subsequently got the attorney general's attention, so props to her) but what was illegal about what was happening to India? What was illegal about Sarah's situation? Bonnie's? Unethical? Yes! Immoral? Yes! But as long as people willingly submit to master and slave relationships and agree to be branded, submit to food monitoring, etc., where can the law help?

I'm watching the last three episodes because I want to see how they tie it up, but I'm not optimistic that I'll get many questions answered.

I don’t think this is a dumb question at all. I was wondering the same thing. There seems to be very little question that these things were not done against their will so while it’s horrible I don’t think it’s illegal. Most of the charges that I’m aware of are related to money, but both Mack and Raniere were charged with sex crimes. I don’t think they were related to the branding/collateral stuff though. If so, frankly Sarah should be under arrest too. She admits she had slaves, got collateral from them, and turned it over to Lauren. If the branding and collateral stuff (which they call blackmail) is illegal then Sarah is guilty as well.

[sistermagpie]

2 hours ago, LeGrandElephant said:

India’s text seemed to be asking Catherine to visit - why wouldn’t Catherine jump at the opportunity to visit and talk to her in person? 

 

1 hour ago, DanaK said:

As I think Cat and Frank surmised, it sounded more like something Keith would say. If he’s the one really saying it, then it smells like a trap of some sort. I’d be suspicious too

Yeah, I think rule #1 is India would have to come to her. There's no point in Catherine O going to the cult. All that's there is a stage managed display with India surrounded by her handlers at every moment. 

[LeGrandElephant]

1 hour ago, 3girlsforus said:

There seems to be very little question that these things were not done against their will so while it’s horrible I don’t think it’s illegal.

I think the "collateral" makes that not so clear cut. I'm sure there must be BDSM clubs where everyone really is consenting, but this case is different. If someone says they were branded and became a sex slave of their own free will but the person who did it to them is holding blackmail material over their head, can you really say it was done of their own free will? Also I'm pretty sure there are laws against slavery even if the person in question "agrees" to be a slave. You can't legally sign away certain rights even if you choose to sign a contract saying so. 

But, in the end, it seems like a lot of what they were convicted of were financial and procedural crimes (financial fraud, immigration fraud, identity theft, etc) - charges that aren't directly based on the creepy sexual "not against their will" stuff. 

1 hour ago, 3girlsforus said:

If so, frankly Sarah should be under arrest too. She admits she had slaves, got collateral from them, and turned it over to Lauren. If the branding and collateral stuff (which they call blackmail) is illegal then Sarah is guilty as well.

Yeah, I think she is guilty of illegal things for that, though to a lesser extent (e.g. it sounded like she quit before any of her slaves actually got branded, and maybe she can claim that she never intended to actually use the blackmail material and stupidly didn't believe anyone above her would either - when she asked for her collateral back it sure seemed like she didn't get what the point of it was).

But, it's not uncommon for prosecutors to go after the "big fish" and not prosecute the ones who did lower level crimes and are willing to cooperate as witnesses. This reminds me a lot of prosecuting a mob boss (who carefully avoided getting his hands dirty where anyone could see) and the few top kingpins - the DA is going to be perfectly happy not to charge some low level flunky who came to them with evidence, even if they are also technically guilty of crimes. We saw Sarah asking everyone to submit evidence of illegal activity that they witnessed *or took part in*, and none of them seemed to be very worried they'd be prosecuted. They know they're needed as witnesses against the big fish. 

Edited October 8, 2020 by LeGrandElephant

[3girlsforus]

47 minutes ago, LeGrandElephant said:

But, it's not uncommon for prosecutors to go after the "big fish" and not prosecute the ones who did lower level crimes and are willing to cooperate as witnesses. This reminds me a lot of prosecuting a mob boss (who carefully avoided getting his hands dirty where anyone could see) and the few top kingpins - the DA is going to be perfectly happy not to charge some low level flunky who came to them with evidence, even if they are also technically guilty of crimes. We saw Sarah asking everyone to submit evidence of illegal activity that they witnessed *or took part in*, and none of them seemed to be very worried they'd be prosecuted. They know they're needed as witnesses against the big fish. 

True and from a legal perspective I can deal with that - but she’s awfully self-congratulatory for someone who didn’t just recruit people for the touchy-feely scam crap but also in the DOS stuff after she was branded. Just far too much glossing over their participation to suit me. Personally I think the setup of the show that makes the timeline confusing is intentional so we don’t really see how much they continued in the group after the branding and how much they still did even once they knew about that kind of thing. It seems the only person who said ‘WTF - I’m out’ the second it happened was Nippy (What the hell kind of name is that). 

[LeGrandElephant]

I agree, Sarah casually mentions that she didn’t realize the brand had those initials until she had showed it to “one of her slaves” but they don’t say how many “slaves” she had, how she pressured/recruited/treated them, how bad their collateral was and how much of it she passed up the chain and what she thought that was being used for, etc.

I can totally see why a DA wouldn’t charge her with anything. Morally, judging her is more complicated because it sounds like she DID do some pretty bad stuff, but then she changed her mind and she did a lot of work and took a big personal reputation hit and some big personal risks in trying to fix it. 

Edited October 8, 2020 by LeGrandElephant

[bilgistic]

On 10/4/2020 at 11:04 PM, Proclone said:

Ok, I am currently about fifteen minutes into the newest episode and I feel like I've cut this series a lot of slack because programs about cults generally interest me.  I was okay with the first couple episodes focusing on Mark and Sarah and by extension Bonnie, because I do think seeing ESP through their eyes is illuminating about how people get involved in things like this.  But I have now watched a women drive in a car (and name drop her royal family members for good measure), and then make juice and then listened to another woman gush about Catherine Oxenburg for several minutes, without one substantive thing being discussed...and I'm so glad we cleared up which guy was Brad🙄 This is after the countless Facebook updates last episodes...Either the producers did not remotely have enough material for nine episodes and are padding this thing to the nth degree or they are seriously inept and think this is what we want to see rather than discussing the real issues surrounding ESP.

I realize this isn't an airport and I don't need to announce my departure, but this is why I decided I was done after 6.5 arduous episodes. I had this episode on while I was working this morning, and I realized (not that it hasn't struck me before now) that I don't give one single shit about any of these people. There was zero focus on anyone who was truly victimized, and there were a lot of women who were. This feels like nothing more than a vanity project for a bunch of Z-list actors and you can't convince me otherwise.

HBO usually shows stellar documentaries, but this was a boring piece of garbage, and I'm mad at myself for wasting the time I did on it.

[Cheezwiz]

2 hours ago, bilgistic said:

I don't give one single shit about any of these people. There was zero focus on anyone who was truly victimized, and there were a lot of women who were. This feels like nothing more than a vanity project for a bunch of Z-list actors and you can't convince me otherwise.

I was disappointed by this series as well. It's such a fascinating topic to delve into, and it would up being a long noodley unfocused exercise in self-congratulation for the main subjects. I watched because I was curious as to how Keith pulled so many of these people in, and I think I have my answer - it seems many of them had narcissistic tendencies themselves. Perhaps at a much lower end of the spectrum, but it's plainly visible from watching how they behave on the show.

I'll probably stick it out to the end simply because I haven't watched any other programming on the cult, and I've already invested so much time into it.

 

[JD5166]

5 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

I was disappointed by this series as well. It's such a fascinating topic to delve into, and it would up being a long noodley unfocused exercise in self-congratulation for the main subjects. I watched because I was curious as to how Keith pulled so many of these people in, and I think I have my answer - it seems many of them had narcissistic tendencies themselves. Perhaps at a much lower end of the spectrum, but it's plainly visible from watching how they behave on the show.

I'll probably stick it out to the end simply because I haven't watched any other programming on the cult, and I've already invested so much time into it.

 

RIght, Boo? 

Seriously a bunch of assholes. I will watch the last one, this IS then last one, isn’t it? 

[DanaK]

5 minutes ago, JD5166 said:

Seriously a bunch of assholes. I will watch the last one, this IS then last one, isn’t it? 

There are 2 episodes left

[FozzyBear]

Sarah and Mark rub me the wrong way. I’m glad they are willing to speak up to stop abuse but they seemed to almost be enjoying a it. Bonnie and Nippy (did I get that right?) both seemed truly shell shocked from the experience. Sarah and Mark seemed to be enjoying the attention and constantly “acting” thier role as hero of the story. I really shouldn’t judge what someone’s reaction looks like. People do weird things and react in weird ways. They just felt very self centered in how they were bothered about things. Bonnie and Nippy seemed very focused that terrible things were happing to others. Mark and Sarah seemed very focused on how it affected them. They just bugged me.

so I’m about to get a lot of hate. I’ll apologize in advance. Am I the only one puzzled by the way wealthy Westerners view the Dalai Lama as some sort of proof of spiritualism? I mean he’s a guy. People decided he was a guru as a boy and that’s it. I’m not even trying to question the religious claim or the religion itself. It seems just as plausible as any other religion. And he seems like he has tried to do well with the life he has. But I don’t actually believe he’s divine any more than I believe any other self proclaimed prophet is divine. It just seems like a particular brand of rich white person with vague beliefs has latched into him as the final authority on all things spiritual. The fact that these nutcases were so excited to get his approval as if it would prove something  was weird. 

Edited October 10, 2020 by FozzyBear

[Cheezwiz]

2 hours ago, FozzyBear said:

Am I the only one puzzled by the way wealthy Westerners view the Dalai Lama as some sort of proof of spiritualism? I mean he’s a guy. People decided he was a guru as a boy and that’s it. I’m not even trying to question the religious claim or the religion itself. It seems just as plausible as any other religion. And he seems like he has tried to do well with the life he has. But I don’t actually believe he’s divine any more than I believe any other self proclaimed prophet is divine.

I think a lot of people are drawn to him not so much because they believe he's actually a divine being, but for many he seems to simply represent goodness, and an advocate for peaceful resistance for his people in the face of decades of brutal oppression from the Chinese government. I don't know much about Tibetan Buddhism, but it seems like a more gentle non-judgmental faith that appeals to people who have been turned off by more dogmatic religions. Since he's the current spiritual leader of Tibet, I'm sure people project all kinds of things onto him, and that includes lots of unfocused wackadoos in search of meaning in their lives.

[3girlsforus]

14 hours ago, FozzyBear said:

so I’m about to get a lot of hate. I’ll apologize in advance. Am I the only one puzzled by the way wealthy Westerners view the Dalai Lama as some sort of proof of spiritualism? I mean he’s a guy. People decided he was a guru as a boy and that’s it. I’m not even trying to question the religious claim or the religion itself. It seems just as plausible as any other religion. And he seems like he has tried to do well with the life he has. But I don’t actually believe he’s divine any more than I believe any other self proclaimed prophet is divine. It just seems like a particular brand of rich white person with vague beliefs has latched into him as the final authority on all things spiritual. The fact that these nutcases were so excited to get his approval as if it would prove something  was weird. 

I can’t really comment on why people in general are enthralled with the Dalai Lama. Whatever those reasons are, it’s not why Rainere/NXIVUM wanted him. For Rainere, it was all about credibility. Having someone with the visibility of the Dalai Lama come and visit them had the potential of “legitimizing” NXIVUM. For Rainere, himself, I’m sure it was about ego to view himself on par with someone like the Dalai Lama. I don’t think Rainere really cared who they got or what that person believed as long as they were respected and visible. They got the Dalai Lama because they had a connection to him through one of their members but it was presented like the Dalai Lama was so impressed with NXIVUM that he sought them out to connect with such brilliance. 

[DanaK]

Some interesting stuff in the following article from Catherine Oxenberg about her journey to free her daughter India from NXIVM and her feelings about the trials and Keith's conviction https://variety.com/2020/tv/features/the-vow-hbo-catherine-oxenberg-india-nxivm-dos-1234796494/#article-comments

Spoiler note:

Spoiler

The documentary series does not capture Oxenberg's reunion with her daughter India for reasons she explains in the article

 

[DanaK]

Man, tonight’s episode (#8) was really something. You think Keith is saying something that a lot of people say about men and women learning to understand each other, then it takes a really insidious turn into blaming women for the faults of society and the women seemingly learning to agree with that view. I did want to hear more of Keith talking about it to get more of how he turned it as a weapon, but man, that special class was something. Repeating the Stanford Prison Experiment in a class can never be good, plus I bet they didn’t switch roles so the men were the prisoners

No wonder Mark and the group are struggling to come to terms with things. Mark’s freakout about Bonnie’s story about sleeping on the floor as punishment (and Catherine and Bonnie laughing about it) was really telling

[rubyred]

What an insidious POS Raniere is. 

[nilyank]

I just want to punch Keith in the face repeatedly every single time he spoke his bullshit. And you could see all his misogyny and his hangups about women and himself. He actually believed all the crap he spouted about women. He is not that good of an actor. 

That story about a little boy being stopped from hitting back at girl from his father and the fucking emotional wound he had from that moment.  That sounded like that actually happened to him. Because he couldn't hit back at a girl and then spent the next few decades getting back at women for that moment. What a piece of garbage.

[SimonSeymour]

50 minutes ago, nilyank said:

I just want to punch Keith in the face repeatedly every single time he spoke his bullshit. And you could see all his misogyny and his hangups about women and himself. He actually believed all the crap he spouted about women. He is not that good of an actor. 

That story about a little boy being stopped from hitting back at girl from his father and the fucking emotional wound he had from that moment.  That sounded like that actually happened to him. Because he couldn't hit back at a girl and then spent the next few decades getting back at women for that moment. What a piece of garbage.

And, as if any decent parent wouldn’t have stopped him from hitting a boy?

[ninjago]

55 minutes ago, nilyank said:

That story about a little boy being stopped from hitting back at girl from his father and the fucking emotional wound he had from that moment.  That sounded like that actually happened to him. 

My reaction was Keith was abused by a woman as a child and that's why he hates women.

Any man who was in that disgusting "fucking" lecture/SOP group should be flagged and monitored.  What a bunch of creepy losers.  This is the kind of shit that ends up with a group of wackos trying to kidnap the governor of Michigan for being a "bitch".

Edited October 12, 2020 by ninjago

[mamadrama]

You know shit's gonna be extra crappy when they start bringing up the Standford prison experiment...

[Cheezwiz]

This episode didn't move things along very much, but my mouth was immediately hanging open at the misogynistic bullshit Keith was spewing, and I did not shut it for the rest of the episode. He was most certainly NOT role-playing during any of those sessions. And everyone was lapping it up. The only word that was in my head throughout the entire episode was "HORSESHIT!!!". Society of Protectors was essentially the cult version of a bunch of basement dwelling incels. An appropriate acronym for the group to be sure.

It was very interesting watching Mark's meltdown regarding the penance that Bonnie put herself through. Even before he started to speak you could tell from the look on his face once Catherine started joking about the dog bed that he was in full freak-out mode.

Yet again we are treated to more shots of Sarah's pelvis. Sigh.

Glad there's only one more episode, but frustrated that they're not exposing the other heinous stuff Keith did.

 

[ShellsandCheese]

This would have been better without Catherine Oxenberg. Now that I'm seven episodes in, I can actually see exactly why people fell for Keith Raniere's bullshit. Also, while I'm not shocked that Sarah and Nippy (that damn name) are still married because they have two young children - I am pretty surprised that Bonnie and Mark are still married.   

[Armchair Critic]

Warning this is nasty. The Frank Report talks about his young victim and Raniere badgering her about swallowing him. 

https://frankreport.com/2020/10/10/breaking-news-camila-turns-against-raniere-child-sex-abuse-victim-expected-to-come-from-mexico-to-condemn-raniere-at-sentencing/

[VagueDisclaimer]

3 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

was very interesting watching Mark's meltdown regarding the penance that Bonnie put herself through. Even before he started to speak you could tell from the look on his face once Catherine started joking about the dog bed that he was in full freak-out mode.

 

3 hours ago, ShellsandCheese said:

This would have been better without Catherine Oxenberg. Now that I'm seven episodes in, I can actually see exactly why people fell for Keith Raniere's bullshit. Also, while I'm not shocked that Sarah and Nippy (that damn name) are still married because they have two young children - I am pretty surprised that Bonnie and Mark are still married.   

This was the most genuine reaction I’ve seen from Mark during this series and  I didn’t mind Catherine’s presence only because she brought out the reaction. They’re all working as a team to bring NXIVM down, but Catherine is an outsider, traumatized indirectly, and able to say she was never seduced by these teachings or these people. And she showed that off in her talk with Bonnie, joking about her “dog bed”. And it was obviously not intended to be cruel, but Catherine didn’t recognize that this was painful and this wasn’t just a silly memory.

Mark and Sarah have both told these stories over and over and, imo, that’s why some of their emotions have come off as acting, rather than genuine.  There’s a distance as they recount, because there’d have to be. But Mark’s response to seeing Bonnie have to laugh off her trauma, at remembering this awful detail from their relationship that they have not fully dealt with, at remembering how “stupid” they had to be to believe this stuff, and to have it sparked by an outsider, all felt more genuine than other times Mark has tried  to be emotional. Not as rehearsed and both Catherine and Bonnie’s responses seemed more genuine to the moment as well. 

Edited October 12, 2020 by VagueDisclaimer

[ElectricBoogaloo]

5 hours ago, nilyank said:

I just want to punch Keith in the face repeatedly every single time he spoke his bullshit. And you could see all his misogyny and his hangups about women and himself. He actually believed all the crap he spouted about women. He is not that good of an actor. 

That story about a little boy being stopped from hitting back at girl from his father and the fucking emotional wound he had from that moment.  That sounded like that actually happened to him. Because he couldn't hit back at a girl and then spent the next few decades getting back at women for that moment. What a piece of garbage.

I had a similar reaction. The blatant misogyny and resentment dripping from him gave me the heebie jeebies. "Women are unreliable and can't be trusted. Men need to fuck and when women enjoy what we do in anger, that's acceptance." BARF.

Anyone who believes that he was WOUNDED because he was told not to hit a little girl needs to have their head examined. How terrible that there was a responsible adult nearby to tell you not to hit someone. Gee, it's so traumatizing to be told that you aren't allowed to physically attack someone!

The fact that he somehow thought this made HIM the victim is just mind boggling. But it's not surprising since narcissists often view themselves as the victims and will do whatever ridiculous mental gymnastics is necessary to make themselves into the victim in a situation where they were actually the perpetrator.

He really brought some much needed laughs when he said: "I consider myself more credentialed as a scientist, and I don't have a lot of high level credentials but I think I"m a good scientific thinker. I think that my credentials are I'm an interesting person, I'm a controversial person, but most importantly I'm an unconventional person."

 

Edited October 12, 2020 by ElectricBoogaloo

[DanaK]

Mark and Nippy’s conversation at the pier(?) was pretty interesting to watch too. There’s a whole lot of trauma and guilt for these folks to process

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I loved that Bonnie got a bad vibe from Allison right away and that it was so bad that Mark staged an intervention. She saw right away that Allison was using JNESS as a fan club.

On a shallow note, it drives me crazy how Keith pronounces his last name. I can't think of a language where it would be pronounced that way.

[Guest]

I wanted to throw the TV out the window when that poor woman in the SOP (JNess or whatever) group "admitted" that when she was bullied in high school in horrible ways by terrible boys that she felt BAD now that she didn't stop to consider that they must have had trauma, too -- thereby negating her experience. I'd like to hear more from that woman and how she feels now after the arrests and way less from Sarah and her scar.

I really would like to know the timeline on all this shit. I still have no idea how long Sarah hung around and engaged with all this shit after she was branded.

Also laughed out loud when they were meeting in the parking lot claiming it was some sort of clandestine meeting a la Deep Throat to "bring down" Keith. High horse much, people?

Edited October 12, 2020 by Guest

[reallymadcow]

Y’all. This episode. I can see why they saved this part of the story for almost last. They’ve taken seven episodes to ease into this fucked up part of the “curriculum” because if they had started with this I’d really just think Mark and Sarah (et. al.) were idiots. That they bought this bullshit shows me how much they had drunk the Kool-Aid at that point. Like how Scientology doesn’t start with Xenu and thetans, you have to get psychobabbled to death first.

What a LOAD of MISOGYNISTIC BULLSHIT. Jesus. 

[3girlsforus]

1 hour ago, reallymadcow said:

Y’all. This episode. I can see why they saved this part of the story for almost last. They’ve taken seven episodes to ease into this fucked up part of the “curriculum” because if they had started with this I’d really just think Mark and Sarah (et. al.) were idiots. That they bought this bullshit shows me how much they had drunk the Kool-Aid at that point. Like how Scientology doesn’t start with Xenu and thetans, you have to get psychobabbled to death first.

What a LOAD of MISOGYNISTIC BULLSHIT. Jesus. 

Maybe the first 7 episode build-up made me less charitable but I still don’t feel badly for Mark, Sarah, et.al.  I just feel like they were ok with everything going on until it didn’t work for them anymore and then they latched onto the fact that it’s a pile of bullshit to make themselves look like heroes. 

[luckyroll3]

It took me an hour and half to watch this episode because I had to keep rewinding because I was sure I misheard or misunderstood the nonsense Keith was spewing.  But nope, it was all a bunch of fucking crap about how he really felt about women that they all lapped up like it was brilliance.  If you're a man and you're angry and want to fuck, then you can just grab anyone and fuck them and if they submit, then that means you were justified. And if they happened to like it even better.

And let me not forget that if I have feelings, it's because I'm a whiny, self-centered bitch who uses my emotions to trap men into taking care of me. 

I get why many of the men were fine listening to that shit. Particularly the assholes who were fining women for daring to sit in front of them or for annoying them by just existing.  But the women?  You have to be on some real self-hating, low self-esteem shit to sit through that mess.  

Oh look, there's Sarah's fucking brand again.....

That scene between Catherine, Bonnie, and Mark. She was sleeping on a doggy bed....and he let her? I really hope they're in couples therapy.

This was a great episode.  They should have eliminated episodes 5 to 7, maybe condensing the important parts into one episode, and went straight to this one. I don't know about any of you, but I was staring at the TV the entire time with my mouth open.

[AttackTurtle]

What a bunch of fucking shit.  This latest episode was honestly the first time that I got angry.  I have met guys that likely think this way (and know to stay the fuck away from them), but that women literally bought this crap just embarrasses the hell out of me.  

Edited October 13, 2020 by AttackTurtle

[sistermagpie]

11 hours ago, SimonSeymour said:

And, as if any decent parent wouldn’t have stopped him from hitting a boy?

IKR? And notice how he's basically suggesting that girls are raised to take whatever they want from boys (or anyone). What a wound. Obviously you're the victim if you're not allowed to hit people. It's not like you can respect anyone with less upper body strength, after all. Women are just so weak physically. (Planking for 3 minutes? Try being in labor for 24 hours, boys!)

11 hours ago, ninjago said:

My reaction was Keith was abused by a woman as a child and that's why he hates women.

Any man who was in that disgusting "fucking" lecture/SOP group should be flagged and monitored.  What a bunch of creepy losers.  This is the kind of shit that ends up with a group of wackos trying to kidnap the governor of Michigan for being a "bitch".

Oh, I don't think he was abused by anyone. I think his "wound" was simply any woman not wanting to fuck him for any reason. Even Mark said he noticed right away the whole focus of the men's weekend was basically why we're entitled to rape and yeah, it was terrible listening to that woman first point out that actually, no, men are not socialized to be 100% protective of women and to always defer to them at all (have we ever even seen any of these guys running to pull out chairs or hold doors for the women more than the women probably do for...anyone else?) and then somehow still conclude that they're being victimized by it.

Also couldn't help but notice in that JNess group immediately how skinny so many of the women already were. All those super bony faces with papery skin. Did the guys ever have to go on diets like that?

I've gotten really into Leah Remini's show since starting this and these stupid misogyny sessions reminded me of some ep of hers, maybe the one where they just interviewed Jehovah's Witnesses, where somebody said something that might have also been very misogynistic and Leah corrected them about it not being true and they shouldn't say it. The person clarified that they were repeating what they believed/what was taught to them and Leah said she knew that, but "you're repeating it." 

Couldn't help but think of that when Keith made a whole program out of repeating misogynistic myths and teachings about women, pretending that repeating them over and over and even having women act them out with them was somehow dealing with them instead of just imprinting them and normalizing them further. 

Nippy was my favorite in this ep. Especially when Mark said Keith had nothing and he deadpanned that excuse me, he won a judo trophy when he was 11.