The Vow

[CherryMalotte]

2 hours ago, sadie said:

Ill finish The Vow tonight but only because I want to see if they can at least stick the landing (I’m guessing not). What a wasted opportunity this one was. 

Same here.  This series for  me dithered.  It could have been condensed into four or five episodes.  The feeling for me about this series is that the filmmakers wanted to show us that Mark and  Sarah were seeking something but got suckered instead.  So maybe that's true - but it shouldn't take this many episodes to show that.     

Edited October 18, 2020 by CherryMalotte

[mamadrama]

Here's the board for India's series.

As I said over there, after hearing Catherine's mom calling Nancy Salzman an idiot I might just start actually calling her "Princess Elizabeth."

 

[Door County Cherry]

1 hour ago, mamadrama said:

I had it added to Hulu for $1.99 a month. Amazon Prime had the same deal going. It's good for 3 months. If you search around you might be able to find it.

I saw they had a Prime special but since I thought I had it, I didn't get it.  I had it just a few months ago for another show so I don't know what happened. 

I'm curious about how they'll wrap up tonight.

[Armchair Critic]

“I pith on your whole family!” 😂

[DanaK]

The first 3/4 of this episode had a mostly unrelenting sadness to it as the gang try to work out their feelings to what they went through and Catherine’s meeting with her daughter ended in failing to change India’s mind. Plus, Bonnie’s audio and memories of her walks with Keith were really something. Then the last 10 or so minutes were joyous with Keith’s arrest and hopeful as we saw the leaders getting arrested and going to court

I'm not sure I understand what Keith’s angle was with the Mexican members and the peace initiative. Was it, as I think Mark suggested, to make them feel bad about their rich families and then come to depend on him to change Mexico?

The trailer for Part 2 looked interesting

Also, Mark and the others keep saying there was a lot of good in the group, but it seems like they are missing that the whole thing was created to trick people to join and then strip away their individuality. You can’t just wave away DOS and keep everything else. If Keith was involved, it was all bad ultimately

Edited October 19, 2020 by DanaK

[dbklmt]

10 hours ago, Maysie said:

Since the filmmakers had personal relationships with the featured people, I believe everyone would have been better served to focus on these people and how they are moving on in life and "in recovery" from having belonged to a cult. Instead we've had this hodge podge of information thrown at us with no cohesive narrative and new people introduced at odd times (Jane, Barbara, Susan) to show us what a bastard Keith could be and how NXIVM almost ruined them. If we relied on this series alone, we'd have no real idea of what the actual crimes are or why Keith is in jail. We still know nothing about the financial crimes, what specifically occurred to be considered sex trafficking and forget about the underage girls - there is not a peep about that. The filmmakers want us to know it's about much more than a sex cult, but they haven't really done anything to dispel that notion.

I will monitor the message boards to see if the second season does a better job, but I can't blindingly give over any more time to these filmmakers. They aren't particularly good storytellers, even with a compelling story. I need to know I'm not going to be strung along on some serpentine mission to make some people feel better about themselves for unwittingly joining a cult.

You're right about these filmmakers not being "particularly good storytelling, even with a compelling story".  It was as you said a "hodge podge of information thrown at us with no cohesive narrative".  They'd better get a good scriptwriter to help them with The Vow, Part 2. 

6 hours ago, sadie said:

Ill finish The Vow tonight but only because I want to see if they can at least stick the landing (I’m guessing not). What a wasted opportunity this one was. 

They didn't.  It was a just a pity party for poor Mark, Bonnie and Catherine.  Won't be back to watch Part 2 in 2021.

[mamadrama]

One of my biggest problems with this is that it seemed to want to say that DOS was terrible, but the rest of NXIVM was okay, and that's just not so. Everything, and everyone, Keith had his fingers in suffered. As we're seeing in the other program, JNESS was terrible, too. SOP was awful. The entire setup was awful. This is NOT a glass half full kind of situation. 

[Guest]

Was thoroughly confused by the timeline here. So, Mark and Bonnie are inside some decaying Nexvium house (complete with dying flies ... how very Amityville Horror-ish) when they get a call that Keith has been arrested and act like it's some sort of super surprise when, in fact, it's all over the news -- like, mere moments after the call, they're reading it on their phones. I presume it was some sort of re-enactment because no way between those two did they not have some Google alert set up for Keith. Had a snort laugh when Bonnie called the group of them, "rebels." Tracks with someone who was a "star" in a Star Wars movie. 

Mark, and his for-the-cameras-tears, creeps me out. I still can't get over his gross, sycophantic relationship he had with Keith. And I still can't get over him not taking even an iota of blame for getting involved with that cult as deep as he was. I hope he gets himself into therapy - and this time with a licensed medical professional and not some other charlatan offering "joy" lessons.

[mamadrama]

57 minutes ago, Giant Misfit said:

Was thoroughly confused by the timeline here. So, Mark and Bonnie are inside some decaying Nexvium house (complete with dying flies ... how very Amityville Horror-ish) when they get a call that Keith has been arrested and act like it's some sort of super surprise when, in fact, it's all over the news -- like, mere moments after the call, they're reading it on their phones. I presume it was some sort of re-enactment because no way between those two did they not have some Google alert set up for Keith. Had a snort laugh when Bonnie called the group of them, "rebels." Tracks with someone who was a "star" in a Star Wars movie. 

Mark, and his for-the-cameras-tears, creeps me out. I still can't get over his gross, sycophantic relationship he had with Keith. And I still can't get over him not taking even an iota of blame for getting involved with that cult as deep as he was. I hope he gets himself into therapy - and this time with a licensed medical professional and not some other charlatan offering "joy" lessons.

Throughout this whole thing they've talked about being "brave" and how they were the first. Only, they weren't the first. That would be the NXIVM 9-the poor women who left in 2009 and we're harassed by members (aka Mark) for the next several years. And Toni Natalie. And Barbara Bouchey...

[ninjago]

Either I’m just heartless or many of these women need to read some “The Gift of Fear”, because I would punch Mark in the face if he started on the “I’m on your team”, “We are taking them down”, “Poor me, I didn’t know bad things were happening!” Like, Toni (Catherine, Bonnie, Sara, Barbara, etc.) you don’t need to forgive Mark!  You certainly don’t need to have him in your home and share a meal with him.  
 

Mark was the right hand man through all of this shit-he was the one leading these groups and shaming his wife and attracting people with his propaganda.  And he still sees himself as, primarily, a victim.

[pigs-in-space]

I have zero interest in what Keith has to say from his jail cell but I’ll probably watch anyways. I might be interested if they’re able to interview people like Nicki Clyne who are still totally up Keith’s ass.

[Cheezwiz]

18 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

Throughout this whole thing they've talked about being "brave" and how they were the first. Only, they weren't the first. That would be the NXIVM 9-the poor women who left in 2009 and we're harassed by members (aka Mark) for the next several years. And Toni Natalie. And Barbara Bouchey...

Yes exactly. I'm done with these people. They are not heroes. I may look at the message boards when it premieres but I have no interest in watching part deux. This series was such a dull, formless, self-indulgent mess, that I'm not eager for another go-round. 

The only compelling part of this episode was the audio of Bonnie's late night walks with Keith, which was pretty chilling. That and his obsession with "luciferian" sociopaths who only want to harm others. If ever there was a clear case of projection it was that!

I did love the photo of Keith in that Mexican squad car. Because you know he thought he was way too smart for that to ever happen.

Edited October 19, 2020 by Cheezwiz

[Jextella]

Voice of 1, but Mark, Sarah, and Bonnie are vicitims in the same sense as all the rest. They bought into a philosophy they thought was designed to help people. No more, no less. To their credit, they left when the light bulb went on that it was no good.  

I also think it was very brave for all those involved in the show to come forward and make the docuseries. - and for a variety of reasons.  For example, they exposed themselves to the world as essentially cult followers. As Nippy, or Tippi, or whatever the hell his name is said, it's embarrassing. And, they also risked opening themselves up to lawsuits - endless lawsuits - like those who left earlier went through and in some cases continue to go through. 

Those participating in this show will have a challenging time rebuilding their lives, and they knew that going in to film this thing. 

Edited October 22, 2020 by Jextella

[Door County Cherry]

2 hours ago, mamadrama said:

One of my biggest problems with this is that it seemed to want to say that DOS was terrible, but the rest of NXIVM was okay, and that's just not so. Everything, and everyone, Keith had his fingers in suffered. As we're seeing in the other program, JNESS was terrible, too. SOP was awful. The entire setup was awful. This is NOT a glass half full kind of situation. 

I don't agree with this.  I think what happened in DOS ultimately led to the Keith and the cult's demise but they did focus on how other things were bad--how Jness led to DOS.  And last week they had the Mark, Bonnie, Catherine, Sarah and Nippy looking back on the fucked-up-ness of SOP.  

I got a kick out of the judge's pronunciation of Keith's last name after we discussed it earlier in this thread. 

34 minutes ago, Jextella said:

Voice of 1, but Mark, Sarah, and Bonnie are victims - just like all the rest. They bought into a philosophy they thought was designed to help people and the further they got into it, they realized it was causing harm. When they came to that realization, they left. 

It's an interesting question.  They did go after some people who left but at that point, they also 100% bought into what Keith said.  And Keith was accusing these people of financial malfeasance.  And so was Clare.  And wouldn't they know?  So if Mark and Sarah bought into those accusations being real, then anything else the defectors were saying could be seen as trying to justify what they did.  

We are all vulnerable to who we trust. 

 

[mamadrama]

1 minute ago, Door County Cherry said:

I don't agree with this.  I think what happened in DOS ultimately led to the Keith and the cult's demise but they did focus on how other things were bad--how Jness led to DOS.  And last week they had the Mark, Bonnie, Catherine, Sarah and Nippy looking back on the fucked-up-ness of SOP.  

 

That's not really what I meant...

My problem is that I can't compartmentalize what we've seen on this series with what else is out there. Having listened to the various podcasts, interviews, etc and listening to Mark and Sarah speak over the course of the past year it DOES feel like they're still defending a good portion of NXIVM and what happened. Mark often tries to come across as a good guy doing good things who just happened to get caught up in "evil" (especially in this last episode). This series has put a lot of emphasis on DOS, especially the branding, while glossing over a lot of the other stuff: money laundering, underage sex trafficking, identity theft, Keith's crazy views on pedophilia.... Yes, they spent a little time on SOP, but even that came later in the series. After watching SEDUCED I have a better understanding of JNESS in one episode than I did in 9 episodes of this. And Sarah, Mark, and Bonnie have spoken positively in hindsight at times. The biggest portion of this series HAS focused on the evils of DOS. Meanwhile, there were a dozen other programs under the NXIVM umbrella that were screwy in their own way (like the school/daycare center). 

It's not surprising. Since this series focused on just a handful of people it's natural they'd only discuss the things that they were a part of. The 3 of them are only 3 years out. This series probably started filming 9 months ago. IMO they're still too raw to have full perspectives on what went on. As Nippy said, their psyches are probably still enmeshed. India has been out for even less time and I think the same thing about her. The difference is that her series isn't being completely run by filmmakers who were an actual part of NXIVM.

[DanaK]

Was the audio at the end suggesting that the filmmakers had gotten an interview with Keith? If so, that would be quite a catch, but Keith will likely try to snow them

Mark and friends could be trying to just remember the friendships they made during their time in the group and meeting and marrying their spouses, but any attempt to say at least some of the classes and subgroups were noble and doing good is having blinders on

[mamadrama]

3 hours ago, Jextella said:

Voice of 1, but Mark, Sarah, and Bonnie are victims - just like all the rest. They bought into a philosophy they thought was designed to help people and the further they got into it, they realized it was causing harm. When they came to that realization, they left. 

I also think it was very brave for all those involved in this show to come forward to make this docuseries. - and for a variety of reasons.  For example, they exposed themselves to the world as essentially cult followers. As Nippy, or Tippi, or whatever the hell his name is said, it's embarrassing. And, they also risked opening themselves up for lawsuits - endless lawsuits - like those who left earlier went through and in some cases continue to go through. 

I think this situation is complicated. IMO Sarah, Mark, Nippy, and Bonnie (to an extent) are definitely victims. They were also at fault and part of the problem. I don't really find it to be an either/or thing here. 

3 minutes ago, DanaK said:

Was the audio at the end suggesting that the filmmakers had gotten an interview with Keith? If so, that would be quite a catch, but Keith will likely try to snow them

Mark and friends could be trying to just remember the friendships they made during their time in the group and meeting and marrying their spouses, but any attempt to say at least some of the classes and subgroups were noble and doing good is having blinders on

That's what it sounded like to me-they scored a convo with Keith AND apparently with Nancy. 

[DanaK]

I do wonder if Nancy was a full and willing partner with Keith or if he suckered her and sucked her in as much as he did everyone else? That comment from her that if he was going to be her mentor, he said they would have to work together the rest of her life should have been a huge red flag

[ElectricBoogaloo]

This entire conversation had me cringing:

Keith: Do you think you're a hard worker?
Bonnie: Sometimes. In some ways. In some areas.
K: If you put your mind to it, can you be a hard worker in whatever you do?
B: Yeah, if I'm connected to it and I am on a mission.
K: A lot of ifs.
B: Yeah. I mean, I just start to think about the plans that I have now. It seems like what you're proposing is just to kind of drop them and be here.
K: Well, if you truly don't want the answer, have the respect for both of us not to ask the question. For you to say that I'm proposing that is either an excuse or a misconstruance. Do you really think I proposed that?
B: I think anything that I say right now is coming out as excuses.
K: Okay. Maybe it is. Maybe you just want to change now. Maybe this is like a big turning point.
B: I guess I need to work on the fears because there's a lot of them right now.
K: Just cut through them. Don't honor them. Can you get over this please? It's not that hard. Loosen up. Stop trying to hold it all. Stop trying to control so much. You're controlling right now. You're controlling your cry. Just wail out. You look terrible when you control. You look beautiful when you don't.

Then it just got worse when she said he gave her little tests like telling her to lick a puddle because she was too uptight about dirt and that she was "so protective of her body" because when he told her to run into a tree, she ran but stopped before smashing into it.

Keith obviously thought that he was super smart and everyone else was a bunch of stupid plebes. That was really highlighted when he told Mark not to use a clip with the word "philosophy" because a typical person watching his documentary about the ESP movement in Mexico wouldn't know what philosophy was.

[Pop Tart]

7 hours ago, Jextella said:

Voice of 1, but Mark, Sarah, and Bonnie are victims - just like all the rest. They bought into a philosophy they thought was designed to help people and the further they got into it, they realized it was causing harm. When they came to that realization, they left. 

I also think it was very brave for all those involved in this show to come forward to make this docuseries. - and for a variety of reasons.  For example, they exposed themselves to the world as essentially cult followers. As Nippy, or Tippi, or whatever the hell his name is said, it's embarrassing. And, they also risked opening themselves up for lawsuits - endless lawsuits - like those who left earlier went through and in some cases continue to go through. 

I'm with you Jextella. Do I like Mark and Sarah and Bonnie? Not all the time. But I get how they could still be so conflicted especially as the filming began on this like two years ago. It ends with Keith being arrested and that happened in 2018. Even if they reenacted those scenes of them finding out at the YWCA lodge, I think much of this was filmed before they knew whether Keith would face any consequences. Many of the early recorded scenes are actually things that Mark, Sarah and Bonnie were filming/recording while they were still partially in the group and beginning to be paranoid. So at the time much of this was being filmed they felt they were still in danger and certainly thought their friends still were (those still with Keith).

Additionally, they spent years thinking they were part of a good organization. So of course they're going to be super conflicted about the time they spent and want to grasp at anything that seems to be something good in that time. They know intellectually now - at least they're attempting to - that the whole thing was rotten. But emotionally they're still in the thick of it in terms of dealing with the constant mindfuckery that Keith did to them.  

I think this series could have been edited and shortened, but I get now that it really was about the emotional arc that the 5 (including Catherine and Nippy) went through as they got out and began to recover. I thought these concluding episodes were pretty good, as were the first few - some of those middle ones could have been cut out or combined. 

I watched the first episode of Seduced and appreciated that it got right into things, but emotionally it felt more clinical than The Vow has been. And that's okay. With The Vow we got a deep dive into how someone can be brought into an organization (not a cult, no one joins a cult, hat tip Mark), slowly and gradually get sucked into an evil morass and then after getting out have to deal with all the choices you made that got you in. Seduced is a good followup because now that India is out we're going to get a true view into the depths of the group. 

Edited October 19, 2020 by Pop Tart

[EdnasEdibles]

10 hours ago, mamadrama said:

One of my biggest problems with this is that it seemed to want to say that DOS was terrible, but the rest of NXIVM was okay, and that's just not so. Everything, and everyone, Keith had his fingers in suffered. As we're seeing in the other program, JNESS was terrible, too. SOP was awful. The entire setup was awful. This is NOT a glass half full kind of situation. 

Yes! Mark does this a lot "We joined a good thing and it turned out to be a cult" but no Mark, you never joined a good thing. Never. Using the kindest description of Nxivm, you joined an MLM focused on shady psycho babble. That's not a good thing. It never was a good thing. Your wealth depended upon recruiting others for this. Even very early on your "mentor" was making your wife lick puddles and chastised her for not running headfirst into a tree. Mark keeps focusing on this idea that he was a very good person who fell into a good program that eventually became bad. Mark needs to own his choices and his issues. He has some internal needs (belonging, spirituality, being important, being respected) that he is meeting in unhealthy ways - the unhealthiest and most recent was joining this cult. That doesn't mean he's a bad person but until he accepts that it is more multi-layered than "I am a good person who joined a good group that turned into a bad group"

I also loved when he and Bonnie were in the cafe and that lady was like "Oh I met them and i knew right away something was off" - Bonnie & Mark seem very focused on how this could have happened to anyone. Literally anyone. And that's sort of true but also sort of not true. I think we are all susceptible to being hoodwinked more than we'd like to imagine we could be. Just the other week I sat on a stupid Juice Plus webinar because a woman I used to know convinced me to join her fun "Mom's night out" zoom and as soon as I realized what was going on, I felt like it would be too rude to log out. That's small scale of course. But I see people in this thread and in other places talk about how they were invited into a weird church or they were invited into a weird group and they realized something was off and noped the hell out of there as soon as possible. So I think we all can be approached and I think on lesser scales we all go along with something uncomfortable for some reason or another. But a great number of people in society say "This isn't right" and get out of there. Mark and Bonnie did not. Especially Mark. I feel like Mark keeps clinging to this whole idea that he did nothing wrong, he's a good person, this could have happened to anyone. No, Mark. You need to figure out exactly what hole you were trying to fill by joining this group and then try to fill that in some healthier ways through therapy or anti-anxiety medication or something. 

[EdnasEdibles]

Posted twice. Ignore. 

Edited October 19, 2020 by EdnasEdibles
Posted twice

[sadie]

41 minutes ago, EdnasEdibles said:

Yes! Mark does this a lot "We joined a good thing and it turned out to be a cult" but no Mark, you never joined a good thing. Never.

Especially Mark. I feel like Mark keeps clinging to this whole idea that he did nothing wrong, he's a good person, this could have happened to anyone. No, Mark. You need to figure out exactly what hole you were trying to fill by joining this group and then try to fill that in some healthier ways through therapy or anti-anxiety medication or something. 

Yes yes yes! Does anyone else get the feeling that they didn't focus a lot on how bad the organization was overall because Mark & company didn’t want the ugly side of their involvement on full display. That’s why the time frames were presented in a very fuzzy manner. I think watching the Seduced episode may provide us all that other side, as when watching that and they had video and such you often see Mark front and center, clapping, smiling, directing others and at the point we all know Nxium was rotten to the core (a “rapable baby” wtf) I mean c’mon Mark, if that kind of crap didn’t send you running then I’m having a hard time buying your victimhood. 

[pigs-in-space]

1 hour ago, sadie said:

Yes yes yes! Does anyone else get the feeling that they didn't focus a lot on how bad the organization was overall because Mark & company didn’t want the ugly side of their involvement on full display. That’s why the time frames were presented in a very fuzzy manner. I think watching the Seduced episode may provide us all that other side, as when watching that and they had video and such you often see Mark front and center, clapping, smiling, directing others and at the point we all know Nxium was rotten to the core (a “rapable baby” wtf) I mean c’mon Mark, if that kind of crap didn’t send you running then I’m having a hard time buying your victimhood. 

But you guys, Mark could now drive on the freeway without having a panic attack! Who wouldn't be all in after that miracle of miracles? /sarcasm

And honestly even though I do side-eye Mark, I also feel bad for him. But he doesn't always make it easy for me to feel bad for him.

[mamadrama]

1 hour ago, sadie said:

Yes yes yes! Does anyone else get the feeling that they didn't focus a lot on how bad the organization was overall because Mark & company didn’t want the ugly side of their involvement on full display. That’s why the time frames were presented in a very fuzzy manner. I think watching the Seduced episode may provide us all that other side, as when watching that and they had video and such you often see Mark front and center, clapping, smiling, directing others and at the point we all know Nxium was rotten to the core (a “rapable baby” wtf) I mean c’mon Mark, if that kind of crap didn’t send you running then I’m having a hard time buying your victimhood. 

Yes! They have occasionally referenced some of the things that Mark had problems with, but Keith was doing/saying bad and weird shit from the very beginning and Mark was right there. Filming it. I think that is also what happens when, as a documentarian, you're so close to your subject (or give them a lot of control).

Mark supported a man who gaslit his wife into licking a puddle and called her "ugly" because she refused to faceplant a tree. 

[mamadrama]

5 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

 

Keith obviously thought that he was super smart and everyone else was a bunch of stupid plebes. That was really highlighted when he told Mark not to use a clip with the word "philosophy" because a typical person watching his documentary about the ESP movement in Mexico wouldn't know what philosophy was.

Well, I mean, we can't ALL be judo champions at 11... 🙄

[FozzyBear]

1 hour ago, sadie said:

Yes yes yes! Does anyone else get the feeling that they didn't focus a lot on how bad the organization was overall because Mark & company didn’t want the ugly side of their involvement on full display. That’s why the time frames were presented in a very fuzzy manner. I think watching the Seduced episode may provide us all that other side, as when watching that and they had video and such you often see Mark front and center, clapping, smiling, directing others and at the point we all know Nxium was rotten to the core (a “rapable baby” wtf) I mean c’mon Mark, if that kind of crap didn’t send you running then I’m having a hard time buying your victimhood. 

Completely. My feeling is also tinged with Mark and Sara (especially)and Nippy and Bonnie (more subconsciously) being aware that they do not want to admit to committing crimes on camera and if they tell the whole story they may open themselves up to legal action. That along with the filmmakers general piss poor sense of place or time makes the entire narrative come across as very contrived and falsely self-congratulatory. I have the worst time keeping track of what is going on in this documentary. Not the actual NXIVM, story that’s pretty easy to follow, but where Mark, Bonnie, Sarah, and Nippy are and what they’re doing from scene to scene. The coffee shop scene with the woman who met someone from NXIVM and thought they were crazy was a perfect example. I mean it was funny watching Mark and Bonnie get out of their self-help bubble and sort of realize that they did in fact fall for a cult that other people could clock from the get go. But who was that woman? Why were they in that coffee shop? Where were they? The tendency of NXIVM to film everything they did adds to the confusion. What’s film from years ago? What’s film from now? What’s a staged reenactment? It’s just very muddled storytelling. 

[DanaK]

From Variety, where are the various NXIVM players now? https://variety.com/2020/tv/news/the-vow-where-are-keith-raniere-allison-mack-1234808846/

[EdnasEdibles]

1 hour ago, pigs-in-space said:

But you guys, Mark could now drive on the freeway without having a panic attack! Who wouldn't be all in after that miracle of miracles? /sarcasm

And honestly even though I do side-eye Mark, I also feel bad for him. But he doesn't always make it easy for me to feel bad for him.

I feel bad for him in the sense that he clearly has some issues he's working through in life and has had these issues for most of his adult life. His overwhelming need to be a part of something and believe in this woo-woo nonsense shows that he's missing something and feeling empty in some way and I feel for him for that. (Someone said earlier that this was the second cult he joined?) But I can only forgive you your issues for so many years into your adulthood before I'm going to just side eye you for not getting real help. 

[DearEvette]

13 hours ago, mamadrama said:

One of my biggest problems with this is that it seemed to want to say that DOS was terrible, but the rest of NXIVM was okay, and that's just not so. Everything, and everyone, Keith had his fingers in suffered. As we're seeing in the other program, JNESS was terrible, too. SOP was awful. The entire setup was awful. This is NOT a glass half full kind of situation. 

Yeah, this is where I am. And this is why I don't think that this show did a good job at all of showing why this group was so dangerous from every corner.  Yes we got some low points with DOS and the branding etc. etc.  But if you look at what Keith, The Salzmans and the Bronfmans are charged with, it is with racketeering, primarily.  Nancy Salzman was engaging in identity theft of members, hacking emails, and falsely altering business records. The sex stuff sells news copy and is of course terrible, but even with the DOS stuff they only scratched the surface here. We all heard about Sarah's branding over and over  and over again, but  Laura Salzman kept a sex slave locked in a damned closet for two years.  And last episode where we finally got to hear some of Keith's philosophy with SOP was probably some of the most damning stuff presented outside of the DOS stuff.

I also agree there is a certain level of self censorship here.  All those women Keith sued into oblivion weren't part of DOS they were part of NXIVM.  Mark was very high up in the structure. You can't tell me he wasn't aware of the shady shit going on in NXIVM and the business practice. 

I will admit the last ten minutes and getting see Keith perp walked was nice.  Also the scene in the coffee shop with the woman going on about she accidentally went to a meeting and immediately knew it was a cult while Bonnie sat there with a deer in headlights look was kinda funny.

 

 

 

[Maysie]

9 hours ago, mamadrama said:

I think this situation is complicated. IMO Sarah, Mark, Nippy, and Bonnie (to an extent) are definitely victims. They were also at fault and part of the problem. I don't really find it to be an either/or thing here. 

 

4 hours ago, EdnasEdibles said:

Mark does this a lot "We joined a good thing and it turned out to be a cult" but no Mark, you never joined a good thing. Never. Using the kindest description of Nxivm, you joined an MLM focused on shady psycho babble. That's not a good thing. It never was a good thing. Your wealth depended upon recruiting others for this. Even very early on your "mentor" was making your wife lick puddles and chastised her for not running headfirst into a tree. Mark keeps focusing on this idea that he was a very good person who fell into a good program that eventually became bad. Mark needs to own his choices and his issues. He has some internal needs (belonging, spirituality, being important, being respected) that he is meeting in unhealthy ways - the unhealthiest and most recent was joining this cult. That doesn't mean he's a bad person but until he accepts that it is more multi-layered than "I am a good person who joined a good group that turned into a bad group"

I say a resounding YES! to both of the above. I think that pretty much everyone who walked into NXIVM and went beyond the first level of classes started out as victims. Whether it was Mark, Sarah, Toni, Barbara, Allison, India or just about anyone else, unless I learn otherwise, they didn't know going in that they were walking into a cult that happened to engage in sex crimes and fraudulent business practices. However, after some time, some of those people transformed from victims to enablers, willing participants and/or worse.

Mark was just fine with his wife sleeping on the floor because she was "bad." He led classes that basically taught the worthlessness and subservience of women, including the professed love of his life. I will grant that he probably didn't know about the sex trafficking or even the financial malfeasance, however, if you claim to be an enlightened person, working towards empowerment for people and peace on earth and all the other bullshit that was being spouted, you cannot believe that's a real thing when you are promoting the debasement of the other gender - and that's what those workshops did! So he started as a victim but he was a big enabler - he was on the executive board, ffs! Mark gets no pass from me.

I've asked more than once what Sarah, Mark and Catherine were digging up that was illegal because the information presented to us in the series was that everything was consensual. My husband and I debated whether the collateral was illegal - that could be extortion, I suppose, and if that is the case, Sarah should have been subject to prosecution too. So I guess that makes her "brave," for risking the legal liability there, but she didn't seem at all concerned about that in the series - she seemed more concerned about harassment, frivolous lawsuits (not unwarranted) and the nasty things NXIVM would say about her. I think Sarah started as a victim, but like Mark, she was a willing participant in all of it, progressing to the point where she had her own slaves. I've never really understood what the final straw was for her - what was that one thing that made her leave? It may have been stated in the series, and I missed it.

For all the talk among everyone about it being a "good thing" (even Barbara still spouts that shit!), I would like some sort of evidence about what the group did that actually was good. Something tangible. I understand that some people gained some confidence and became financially prosperous, but for all the bs they spouted about changing the world, what did they do towards that? There's no tangible evidence, such as community centers, libraries, programs to help underserved populations, etc that NXIVM did anything other than make people pay to listen to Keith, play volleyball and feel a little bit better about themselves.

If you want to do good things, try something like the Peace Corps or volunteer with something that is close to your heart.

 

[ninjago]

1 hour ago, EdnasEdibles said:

I feel bad for him in the sense that he clearly has some issues he's working through in life and has had these issues for most of his adult life. His overwhelming need to be a part of something and believe in this woo-woo nonsense shows that he's missing something and feeling empty in some way and I feel for him for that. (Someone said earlier that this was the second cult he joined?) But I can only forgive you your issues for so many years into your adulthood before I'm going to just side eye you for not getting real help. 

The shot of him on the plane to Albany and he was reading some sort of self-help book....Oh my God, Mark.  Go to a damn shrink for Pete's sake.  A real trained one who will actually help you sort your shit out instead of dressing it up as Unique Specialness.

[Fleegull]

Nippy was on a podcast last week and perhaps the distance from when the documentary was filmed (or he's read the comments anywhere) has allowed to him to realize that NXIVM was never a good organization. He admits that the techniques they utilized for all of these breakthroughs were cribbed from other sources and easily put in place over the intensives that were also keeping their participants tired and underfed which allowed them to be more susceptible to their nonsense.

All cult deprogrammers sell the idea that anyone can be pulled into a cult and I wonder if they have to say this as a means to allow the victims to start to heal from the wounds the cult inflicts. A big part of getting out of a cult is getting over the shame of being lured in and if you're told that this can happen to anyone then maybe you might have a better chance of recovering? I have no clue but I also know that as someone who has been fascinated by cults since I was a kid, nope, there is no way I would get sucked into one. This is not a boast, I'm not a joiner and I'm a born and bred New Yorker so I naturally don't trust any group of people who smile that much and are that friendly. No one should walk around kissing everyone they meet on the lips, that's nasty.

[Jextella]

6 hours ago, DanaK said:

From Variety, where are the various NXIVM players now? https://variety.com/2020/tv/news/the-vow-where-are-keith-raniere-allison-mack-1234808846/

Thank you for sharing this!

[Refresh]

12 hours ago, DearEvette said:

And this is why I don't think that this show did a good job at all of showing why this group was so dangerous from every corner.  Yes we got some low points with DOS and the branding etc. etc.  But if you look at what Keith, The Salzmans and the Bronfmans are charged with, it is with racketeering, primarily.  Nancy Salzman was engaging in identity theft of members, hacking emails, and falsely altering business records. The sex stuff sells news copy and is of course terrible, but even with the DOS stuff they only scratched the surface here. We all heard about Sarah's branding over and over  and over again, but  Laura Salzman kept a sex slave locked in a damned closet for two years.  And last episode where we finally got to hear some of Keith's philosophy with SOP was probably some of the most damning stuff presented outside of the DOS stuff.

There is another lawsuit filled in the beginning of this year with 80 plaintiffs that's more specific to the pyramid scheme/MLM. (NYT Article)

The early classes of NXIVM remind me a lot of the Landmark Forum, which is another personal growth group that says they're not a cult. I knew some people in the early 2000s who invited me to go to a free evening event and I was too nice at that point in my life to say no. However, 20 minutes in I had a visceral reaction to the environment where I basically started shaking and crying, had a panic attack and left.

About the evening (which I remember very well) Landmark started off with a big group of everyone (maybe 75 or so people) for about 10 minutes, where one of the first things they staged, was someone in the audience asking "Is Landmark a cult?" to which there was a resounding laughter, and of course denials. Then a few more BS questions. Then they separated us into smaller groups of less than 10. I was, of course, was not put in a small group with anyone I came with. Then there was some new age babble about how to remove blocks from the life you want to live etc. and they're trying to sell their $300 weekend seminar. Then after that the next seminar they suggested was a Money seminar where you were supposed to learn about your relationship with money and they had someone tell a personal story about how it helped them. Immediately I think to myself, uh -- they're trying to figure out who has money! And that's when I started freaking out. I left the little room, found the people I came with and they saw I was freaking out and I said I was leaving with or without them, they left with me. One of the people I went with was an actor, he was the main one interested in it, after watching this I'm like, heh, go figure.  

There are so many similarities between NXIVM and the history of groups like this. Landmark, EST, Scientology, Manson, Jim Jones, Bagwan Rajneesh, Branch Dividian etc. and yes, they're on a spectrum of awfulness but I'm sure in my lifetime there with be another one that does shady and illegal shit where people are hurt.  It blows my mind sometimes. 

This show did not do a great job of telling that Cautionary Tale of how it's done which I think is a responsibility with this subject matter. 

 

Edited October 20, 2020 by Refresh

[pfk505]

Well now we know why the filmmakers went so easy on Nancy, Allison, the Bronfmans etc.. its because they'll all be showing up for Part 2, to tell the same "woe is me, I got duped" story the rest of the gang told in Part 1.

This thing held my attention to the end but it really went totally off the rails about half way through. They could have told the same story in about 4 hours.

Edited October 20, 2020 by pfk505

[MicheleinPhilly]

19 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Also the scene in the coffee shop with the woman going on about she accidentally went to a meeting and immediately knew it was a cult while Bonnie sat there with a deer in headlights look was kinda funny.

 

 

 

I finally watched this last night and even though I knew it was coming from reading here, I still LOLed. HARD. 

This entire production really was a hot mess but I'm sure I'll be back for season 2 if only to snark with you lot. 🙂

[kathe5133]

It's been said that when Keith began ESP/NXIVM, it was for the sole purpose of grooming these your women to be his slaves, the implication being that he started out knowing full well in the end he would be branding his own sex slaves.  I think that kind of long term planning is not something Keith is smart enough to pull off.  Yeah, I know IQ of 245.  But, he's still sort of an idiot.  I think he started this as a means to make money.  When faced with the adulation of these mental deficits, he began to see himself as the "god" they thought he was.  Since power corrupts, and it corrupts morons more quickly, wa la!  Sex slaves!

 

[EdnasEdibles]

I know that we shouldn't talk about the other documentary here (the Starz) one but damn, it's a lot more interesting. In the first episode alone we had Catherine Oxenberg's mom talking about how the whole thing was terrible and Nancy Salzman was an idiot. We heard the ridiculous Jness stuff they were spouting at one of Catherine & India's first meetings and we saw Keith talking in the huge auditorium about how having sex with kids is OK and how he knew of a situation where a girl was having sex with her father and actually enjoyed it and it wasn't until it got out and society judged it that she felt victimized. And he's like "So who actually victimized her?" Her father? Society?

This is the kind of stuff he was saying. This is the stuff that Mark filmed. That's why I have no patience at all for Mark's "We joined a good thing!" rants. 

 

[tljgator]

1 hour ago, EdnasEdibles said:

I know that we shouldn't talk about the other documentary here (the Starz) one but damn, it's a lot more interesting. In the first episode alone we had Catherine Oxenberg's mom talking about how the whole thing was terrible and Nancy Salzman was an idiot. We heard the ridiculous Jness stuff they were spouting at one of Catherine & India's first meetings and we saw Keith talking in the huge auditorium about how having sex with kids is OK and how he knew of a situation where a girl was having sex with her father and actually enjoyed it and it wasn't until it got out and society judged it that she felt victimized. And he's like "So who actually victimized her?" Her father? Society?

This is the kind of stuff he was saying. This is the stuff that Mark filmed. That's why I have no patience at all for Mark's "We joined a good thing!" rants. 

 

Exactly! I don't have Starz, but I found that other hour and half documentary (linked above) on my OnDemand, and watching that (with questionable "suicides" that might have been more, the child rape thing that many have noted here plus other cases of child rape from when he worked at a high school, an interview with the gal who ran away after having his kid, etc.) and then watching this finale left me a little baffled. The Vow never gets at what these other docs seem to cover. I have to think that finding out some of these things would at least impact Mark and the others in some way, despite the differing focus of this.

Just watching The Vow, I'd think -- eh, it's Scientology-lite. Horrible, to be sure, but does it warrant all of this? These others? Whole different ballgame. It's hard for me to reconcile.

22 hours ago, DearEvette said:

Also the scene in the coffee shop with the woman going on about she accidentally went to a meeting and immediately knew it was a cult while Bonnie sat there with a deer in headlights look was kinda funny.

Gotta admit, I did love this part, though. The other gal was all "what kind of idiot falls for that?!" and Bonnie was all "um. yeah."

[DearEvette]

2 hours ago, EdnasEdibles said:

I know that we shouldn't talk about the other documentary here (the Starz) one but damn, it's a lot more interesting. In the first episode alone we had Catherine Oxenberg's mom talking about how the whole thing was terrible and Nancy Salzman was an idiot. We heard the ridiculous Jness stuff they were spouting at one of Catherine & India's first meetings and we saw Keith talking in the huge auditorium about how having sex with kids is OK and how he knew of a situation where a girl was having sex with her father and actually enjoyed it and it wasn't until it got out and society judged it that she felt victimized. And he's like "So who actually victimized her?" Her father? Society?

This is the kind of stuff he was saying. This is the stuff that Mark filmed. That's why I have no patience at all for Mark's "We joined a good thing!" rants. 

 

See, the absence of stuff like this and the shady criminal financial stuff, is why I have come to the conclusion that this show isn't about NXIVM at all, but rather about Bonnie, Mark and Sarah's personal "journey" away from it and the reasons they gave themselves for leaving.

Also, I have to roll my eyes super hard whenever Mark referred to Keith as a "Philosopher and Scientist."  I mean the dude was smart, obviously, but he had no credentials.  I suppose anyone could call themselves anything but it is such a stretch and quite insulting to actual scientists.

[Tachi Rocinante]

On 10/19/2020 at 1:20 PM, DanaK said:

From Variety, where are the various NXIVM players now? https://variety.com/2020/tv/news/the-vow-where-are-keith-raniere-allison-mack-1234808846/

Frank Parlato is now awaiting trial for fraud.  Nice.

[Tachi Rocinante]

On 10/6/2020 at 7:55 PM, Armchair Critic said:

The Lost Women of NXIVM, just started watching, it features Frank Parlato and gives more info about Pam.

https://www.investigationdiscovery.com/tv-shows/lost-women-of-nxivm/full-episodes/the-lost-women-of-nxivm

Just started watching, and the thing I immediately noticed is that good ol' Mark has his face blurred out in pictures. (You can't miss the fivehead.)  Interesting.

[Door County Cherry]

16 minutes ago, Tachi Rocinante said:

Frank Parlato is now awaiting trial for fraud.  Nice.

There was a throw away comment that Sarah made that he was making up/lying about some of his reporting.  

[LeGrandElephant]

On 10/18/2020 at 8:25 PM, DanaK said:

The trailer for Part 2 looked interesting

I don’t recall seeing a trailer on Hulu - where did you see it?

[DanaK]

4 minutes ago, LeGrandElephant said:

I don’t recall seeing a trailer on Hulu - where did you see it?

On HBO linear. I believe this is it (or fairly similar) from this Variety article https://variety.com/2020/tv/news/the-vow-season-2-keith-raniere-nxivm-1234810845/

Edited October 20, 2020 by DanaK

[LeGrandElephant]

2 hours ago, DearEvette said:

See, the absence of stuff like this and the shady criminal financial stuff, is why I have come to the conclusion that this show isn't about NXIVM at all, but rather about Bonnie, Mark and Sarah's personal "journey" away from it and the reasons they gave themselves for leaving.

Even so, they should have shown Mark, Bonnie, Sarah, etc, finding out about all the other horrible stuff and reacting (Sarah’s “best friend” held a teenage girl prisoner for two years because she wanted to have sex with someone other than Keith!). 
 

They also should not have taken Mark, Sarah etc at their word for everything. They show Mark ranting that “no one joins a cult” but fail to mention he has joined two of them? They show them all talking about how they joined a good organization to help people but show no rebuttals about how it wasn’t helping anyone and was just making them rich? 
 

Its sort of impressive to take such a juicy story with so much info and detail out there and tell it in such a confusing and boring way. 

Edited October 20, 2020 by LeGrandElephant
Capitalization

[LeGrandElephant]

Forgot to say my original thought after watching the finale: was I supposed to be shocked and appalled that Keith wanted to reshoot some footage with a new haircut? THAT’S what they used their finale to focus on? What was the point of that? To show that Mark sucks as a filmmaker? What a boring and pointless finale. 

[Maysie]

The scene in the coffee shop was absolutely pathetic. When the young lady asked Mark what they were doing in Albany and he said "it's too long to get into," her response of "you can't tell me in 30 seconds?" sounded a bit like a set up. And then he launched into his we-unwittingly-joined-a-cult-that-did-very-bad-things-including-branding-women-and-making-them-slaves-and-now-we're-taking-them-down speech. It was this weird mix of sheepishly admitting their gullibility while still patting themselves on the back for being awesome! I think that Mark, Bonnie, Sarah, etc. have surrounded themselves with their fellow NXIVMers for so long that they weren't ready for anyone to actually challenge them with how obvious it was that NXIVM, at best, was a scam and at worse, a cult. Bonnie looked like someone threw a bucket of cold water on her when they weren't immediately sympathetic, but instead, were like "oh you fell for it!!!" So welcome to the real world, outside of the NXIVM cocoon. I sincerely hope they are all getting some counseling.

And another Catherine question came to me: why didn't she consult a professional to see how to deal with a child that has fallen prey to being brainwashed? I understand talking it out with your friends, but we were kind of baffled when they were all hanging out at her friend's house and she was quizzing him on what she should say to India when she saw her. It seems that someone with Catherine's resources would have been able to find someone other than a wealthy friend who could help her navigate her interactions with India to understand how to approach her daughter for the best possible outcome. And if her friend had that experience, let us know that!

At the end of it all, we decided this series could have been wrapped up in two or three episodes. We still don't have any inkling who Keith really is and how he came to be the leader of a cult. Is he a scientist? What is his education level? We know that he can play the piano, plays volleyball, takes a lot of walks and likes to lounge around on the couch while women tend to him. We also know that he's a master of double speak. My husband does executive coaching, and during the phone call with Bonnie, he said that there are two approaches you can take when coaching. The proper method is to ask questions and talk to someone and let them find their own conclusions and way forward-the coach has no preconceived notions, and if he/she does, they must be kept out of the conversation. The tempting, but not well-regarded way, is to already know where you want to end up and ask questions to lead the person there, seemingly on his/her own. Of course, Keith does it the second way and the conversation with Bonnie was a classic example of it.

This is such an interesting story, and I'm a bit bummed that the filmmakers took what should have been a goldmine of information and resources and turned it into a hot mess. After nine hours of viewing, we should have some basic understanding of who Keith is (including his childhood and education), how he started NXIVM with Nancy, what the organization's early days were like, how it was structured financially and who the players were. From there you can start picking off the individual charges - like the wire fraud, sex trafficking, etc. - and you can use the Marks, Sarahs, Barbaras, etc. to illustrate some points, provide background, etc. It's crazy that after nine hours, I'm left with many more questions than I started with - and some of those questions, such as what the charges were and how the Feds arrived at them are pretty basic. If I had to grade the series, it would probably be a C or a D. It had a baked in interesting story, but they missed on answering the most basic questions and lacked direction.

[HC87]

^^^^ 100% agreed....this was probably the most frustratingly bad documentary I've ever seen....and I've seen a LOT.

Wish I had Starz but I'm basically maxed out on cable, streaming choices.....life's too short.