The Vow

[izabella]

34 minutes ago, EtheltoTillie said:

Now I’m going down a new rabbit hole.  Neurolinguistic programming.  This is the therapy Salzman claims to be expert in. Wikipedia says it’s a pseudoscience. I’m disturbed that HBO didn’t delve into it more and accepted her description at face value. 

Isn't this a Mark and Sarah production?  It's clear they are still believers and are still pushing the idea this was a legitimate self-help program through this documentary.  The fact they are showing so damned much of Keith's egotistical pontificating and Nancy's classes, uncritically, shows they still do not get they were part of an abusive cult and predatory pyramid scheme.

Edited October 26, 2022 by izabella

[DanaK]

On 10/26/2022 at 6:01 PM, izabella said:

Isn't this a Mark and Sarah production?  It's clear they are still believers and are still pushing the idea this was a legitimate self-help program through this documentary.  The fact they are showing so damned much of Keith's egotistical pontificating and Nancy's classes, uncritically, shows they still do not get they were part of an abusive cult and predatory pyramid scheme.

The director indicated in an interview that she is trying to show as much as she can from both sides so that viewers have a better understanding of how the cult worked and people got sucked into it. Normally, I don’t think we need to listen to the other side if they are toxic to you, but something like this, I think I understand her reasoning 

Edited November 1, 2022 by DanaK

[izabella]

1 hour ago, DanaK said:

The director indicated in an interview that she is trying to show as much as she can from both sides so that viewers have a better understanding of how the cult worked and people got sucked into it. Normally, I don’t think we need to listen to the other side if they are toxic to you, but something like this, I think understand her reasoning 

I would be more inclined to believe her if we were seeing that on screen.  I don't think they're explaining the toxic part enough, and definitely they are not being thorough about the financial crimes.  By giving so much time to Keith and Nancy and their thoughts, we aren't hearing about the long list of crimes committed, like Nancy's daughter keeping an undocumented immigrant locked up in a room for over a year. 

Or is it two years?  I should know the answer because they should have spent that time on that crime and all the other crimes.  Tell us about the money laundering, and the trafficking.  Stop defending the program.  Tell us how the pyramid scheme worked, and how much money Keith amassed from his followers.  They mentioned how Nancy's assets were taken, but she seemed to be living in a nice place.  Tell us about how much she benefited financially from the scheme if you're going to put her on to say she knew nothing about the sex cult and she just wanted to help people.

The message I'm getting is:  Sex cult, sex cult, everyone is obsessed with the sex cult, but this was a great self help program!  If you just listen to Nancy and Keith long enough, you'll see how it's not just a pyramid scheme based on manipulation!  Anyway, WE weren't involved in the really bad things!

[peachmangosteen]

13 hours ago, izabella said:

By giving so much time to Keith and Nancy and their thoughts, we aren't hearing about the long list of crimes committed, like Nancy's daughter keeping an undocumented immigrant locked up in a room for over a year. 

There's still 4 more episodes. Maybe they'll get into that.

[Proclone]

On 10/24/2022 at 9:07 PM, Armchair Critic said:

Starting episode 2... I think from now on I will skip the intro music, that loud aaaaah during it made my cat look. 😅

Do you think Keith kept his sexual hijinks away from Nancy so she was oblivious? Or did she know what he was doing but overlooked it because she believed in their cause? 

I can see how she is convincing, I want to believe she really meant well but then I remember that she is a master at manipulating people's minds.

Wasn't it actually Nippy's wife Sarah who was part of the secret group and was blackmailing them with their "collateral"? I think Mark and Sarah were sweating it because they were worried about how much they were complicit was going to come out.

Maybe Nancy should be blaming her daughter Lauren too because she was the leader of the women's secret cult. Also she was sleeping with Keith.

I think Nancy liked the money.  I think she overlooked what he was doing because she was making a lot of it.  You notice she still pissed at Sarah for refunding people's money.  Which as a side note, I don't remember them mentioning that before and it makes me like Sarah way more.  I don't think for one second Nancy actually thinks she was truly helping people.  She knew she was involved in a pyramid scheme.  I also don't think she was unaware of Keith's sexual proclivities.  I think it's possible she wasn't aware of DOS, in that it was organized thing, but I don't for one second believe that she didn't know that Keith was manipulating vulnerable women into sleeping with him.  I imagine she turned a blind eye to it, or just chalked it up to price for making obscene amounts of money.

The fact is that she's upset that Keith's "thing" DOS effected her company (or more accurately her money) and doesn't seem at all horrified that she was even tangentially connected to something that involved the systematic abuse and branding of women, speaks volumes.  She wonders why the 17,000 people she's "helped" aren't standing up for her...It's because normal people don't stand up for organizations that are connected to sex crimes.  Even if someone did gain something from one of the classes they took, it doesn't outweigh the harm Keith has done.  And normal people realize that.  She's just as bad as Keith.  If not in some ways worse. 

I think she's a little bit right in saying Keith is the way he is.  Keith is obviously a psychopath and a predator.  I also think he believes most crap he says.  Nancy I'm not so sure has actually drank the Kool-Aid.  I think she's smart enough and to realize it's bullshit, she just likes the money.  The fact that's she doesn't seem horrified her daughter was in a sex cult that left her branded with Keith's initials says a lot to me.

I'll also fully admit that I have a pretty visceral reaction to Nancy because I'm a nurse and the idea that she took actual therapeutic techniques she learned as a nurse and was using them to manipulate people into spending thousands of dollars on BS seriously rubs me the wrong way.

[violet and green]

I found it really hard to concentrate on that episode, because I kept getting drawn into Nancy's eyebrows and how I would fix them. Four decades of bad eyebrow shaping! I also found her rather endearing, surprisingly.

I believe she thought she was doing good with her courses and her EMs, was proud of the "business" she had built, and that she was in love with little Keith. I believe her when she says she knew nothing about DOS, as that was a young woman's game.

I also understand she was involved in launching law suits against "suppressives", and moving/hiding massive amounts of money, so hardly blameless. She's a nurse who studied NLP and hypnosis, and made a stack of cash out of charging exhorbitant fees for their hokey programs. She seemed surprisingly arrogant around her skills in this. "Keith wanted me..."

It is just so odd, this dweeby little man and this woman with bad eyebrows, a cheesy smile and, as I read somewhere, terrible breath, having so much confidence in themselves they conned all these people into handing over tens and hundreds of thousands, and in some cases control of their lives. I guess that's the confidence in con game.

[izabella]

On 10/27/2022 at 5:08 PM, violet and green said:

It is just so odd, this dweeby little man and this woman with bad eyebrows, a cheesy smile and, as I read somewhere, terrible breath, having so much confidence in themselves they conned all these people into handing over tens and hundreds of thousands, and in some cases control of their lives. I guess that's the confidence in con game.

I think this is the mystery that keeps me watching.  My gut reaction upon seeing Keith in the first series was to be repulsed.  Listening to him talk showed him to be a self-centered creep.  So I find it incredible that he could have conned so many people, and inspired such devotion among the women he was taking advantage of and abusing.

Nancy watched and learned, and became polished over time in delivering Keith's classes and lectures, but she's like every self-help guru out there.  "What would you say if I told you that you could change your life?  Think about all the things you could do if you were in control, if you could direct what's next for you.  What would you do if I told you I could teach you how? (Just take out your checkbook...)"  But I don't have a sense for who she is underneath that mask.  Keith and this program have been her life for years, but I can't tell if she became a greedy manipulator after she met Keith, or she was always that way. 

Edited October 29, 2022 by izabella

[patty1h]

Just watched episode 3... so many crying women, so much giving up control and then being upset that they did. That Nancy woman is teaching the amazing course for empowerment and in this episode she's weeping how she was always seeking approval, which was based on her mother berating her when she was diagnosed with dyslexia as a child. Also Tourette's girl being all broken up because Tourette's boy is sticking up for Keith Raniere. I felt kind of bad for the girl with Tourette's - you could see that her family life was full of stress. That scene in the kitchen with her parents was hella tense.   Another example that Keith's teachings are pretty shitty - all those rules and principles and training to know yourself are not hitting the mark.

What a waste -- all those women wanting someone to tell them what to think and finding out the "master" is a creep.   Every episode it hits me again that every so-called lesson from Nancy/Keith turns into incomprehensible babble - I lose the point in 15 seconds.

[Andyourlittledog2]

“I don’t know what he was trying to say. But we laminated it.”

The group in a nutshell.  I had to laugh.

Having been in a cult for sixteen years, starting at age fifteen, I can completely relate to the sense of loss and PTSD that upends you when you leave. It's no small thing, compounded by the fact that no one around you has any idea what you feel or why or can help you. It's so isolating. 

The thing about this group (I can never spell it correctly) is that it was marketed so heavily as female empowerment (to women) but Keith's teachings were so misogynistic amd demeaning. When I would hear or read about his teachings about how men and women were different and how women need to change and stop feeling and acting like women it would just enrage me. I don't know how these women couldn't see it. But then no one outside ever understood me either so...

[DanaK]

Episode 3: I was beginning to think they were spending too much time on the Tourette study and its supposed success and wasn’t sure how it would tie in with the rest of the series, and then it took a dark turn and showed how it tied in. Isabelle talking about how she felt controlled and shamed while trying to be cured was heartbreaking and of course showed exactly the devious practices NXIVM were doing. Her parents were something else and their acceptance of at least part of NXIVM because it supposedly helped her definitely wasn’t helping her heal

It was also interesting to hear from Nancy saying she felt afraid of Keith and felt she couldn’t speak up around him. I’m glad she started getting therapy, but that seems to go against everything she and NXIVM taught, so I’m not sure how Nancy is reconciling that with her lament in a previous episode that a lot of people were helped

Edited November 1, 2022 by DanaK

[For Cereals]

1 hour ago, patty1h said:

Every episode it hits me again that every so-called lesson from Nancy/Keith turns into incomprehensible babble - I lose the point in 15 seconds.

It’s all word salad.  I would be a bad student because they would put me to sleep.

I think Nancy would still Nancy if Keith hadn’t been caught.

Poor Isabella.  Her dad, just wow.  I wanted her mom to display some sort of emotion or physical support towards her daughter instead of just sitting there calmly saying she couldn’t compartmentalize like the dad.  I’m sure all those early years were hard on her parents but it was sad to see how alone Isabella felt.

[lyric]

Man, I’d forgotten how much I cannot stand the theme song. Like nails on a chalkboard. 

Glad they’re back for round 2. It’s interesting to see the aftermath. The dude who had Tourette’s (Michael? Mark?) is interesting. I can imagine overcoming something so debilitating has got to make seeing anything beyond the good more difficult, but damn, that was some aggressive manipulation he was pulling with Isabella…gross. 
 

Nancy is sort of a tragic figure - she always seemed insecure and cheesy to me. That said, she references the “sex stuff” and implying if not for that… but didn’t she have, like, boxes full of cash stashed away and other shady stuff?

[izabella]

Is Isabella getting therapy?  Like, a lot of it?  I hope so.  Her dad...wow.  He dismissed and invalidated the damage and pain his daughter experienced, because of the good - as he sees it - that came from it.  Maybe a good therapist would find that her tics started in connection with some other belittling or invalidating episode with her dad, or a lifetime of it.

It was interesting that Isabella said that once she calmed and controlled her tics, all these other things started coming up.  Another reason a good therapist would be a good idea.  I'm sure there are a lot of things in her life she needs to sort through.

[Door County Cherry]

1 hour ago, izabella said:

Is Isabella getting therapy?  Like, a lot of it?  I hope so.  Her dad...wow.  He dismissed and invalidated the damage and pain his daughter experienced, because of the good - as he sees it - that came from it.  Maybe a good therapist would find that her tics started in connection with some other belittling or invalidating episode with her dad, or a lifetime of it.

It's pretty incredible how two of the men surrounding Isabella's story both took the view that the "cure" is either worth all the other ish or all the other stuff couldn't be possible because "he helped us."  

Attitudes like these are why sexual predators get away with so much.  And the Marc on the phone call goes way beyond someone grateful for what he perceived ESP to do.  And I don't think it's a coincidence that he makes his money as a motivational speaker on the topic even before it seems he joined ESP. I feel like he could be a cult leader as well.

1 hour ago, lyric said:

Nancy is sort of a tragic figure - she always seemed insecure and cheesy to me. That said, she references the “sex stuff” and implying if not for that… but didn’t she have, like, boxes full of cash stashed away and other shady stuff?

I don't know.  I look at Keith and I am flabbergasted that he could fool anyone.  I look at Nancy and I believe she could.  The videos that were shown did show the subtle ways he manipulated her.  And it sounds like she did all the work in developing the program. 

But she's also the figure who probably made people feel safe.  And she did spend years practicing her persona and schtick.  Is she a tragic figure?  Or was she more of a leader?  It's really hard to know and it's why Nancy was Keith's wisest move. 

All I know is her hairless kitty made me think of Dr. Evil. 

[EtheltoTillie]

Keith was such a narcissistic ass that they had to preserve all of his word salad oaktag posters!  She made 2,000 modules. More money to be made. Just before she showed the posters she said that maybe therapy would help her figure out her mess of a life. Then she just shrugs. 
The stuff about Tourette’s was flat out disturbing. I just don’t know what to say. It seems like it was a sideline that Keith was not directly involved in?  

Edited November 1, 2022 by EtheltoTillie

[DanaK]

4 hours ago, izabella said:

Is Isabella getting therapy?  Like, a lot of it?  I hope so.  Her dad...wow.  He dismissed and invalidated the damage and pain his daughter experienced, because of the good - as he sees it - that came from it.  Maybe a good therapist would find that her tics started in connection with some other belittling or invalidating episode with her dad, or a lifetime of it.

It was interesting that Isabella said that once she calmed and controlled her tics, all these other things started coming up.  Another reason a good therapist would be a good idea.  I'm sure there are a lot of things in her life she needs to sort through.

It seemed Isabelle had/has OCD and I don’t know what else so I’ll bet that had a lot to do with her tics or making them worse. So if she got control of her tics but not her OCD and other issues, I’m not surprised other stuff came up that she had to deal with, including stuff with her parents. Along with stuff that already existed, she has to deal with being abused by NXIVM. How is NXIVM doing a good thing with Tourette’s if they abuse the person along the way?

[blixie]

Quote

How is NXIVM doing a good thing with Tourette’s if they abuse the person along the way?

Yes I was like this is essentially spare the rod spoil the child stuff. WTF!!! Only via psychological manipulation. What really bothers is me is people thinking ESP is somehow a unique thing that was never thought of before, when it's just a fucked up version of information and techniques that already exist. I was so glad when the lawyer was like uh these techniques already existed and there are far healthier people to administer them than Keith and Nancy.  

That Marc said he could not separate the cure from the conman I was like and that is why it's a cult dum dum. Also is there a moonier moony than Nikki Cline in 20 years, it'll be her and that Manson lady. 

[DanaK]

I forgot to comment on the stuff at the end with Nancy’s other daughter Michelle, and Nancy talking about trying to convince Lauren to cop a plea. It appears Nancy and Michelle still have a good relationship but there seemed to be an underlying sadness at the end of the scene. And we didn’t hear from Lauren herself except through the reconstructed trial testimony, though we might hear directly from her next episode
 

And that defense attorney still trying to defend NXIVM and ignoring the abusive treatment. I’m glad the lead prosecutor weighed in on the Tourette study and how a good therapist can use cognitive behavior to alleviate the symptoms and that NXIVUM’s abusive practices were not good

[VioletMarx]

I think Nancy is a bad and selfish person, but it amazes me that Marc credits Keith with curing his Tourette's when it was actually Nancy and her work with him that did it. Did we ever actually see where the techniques originated? I feel like Nancy brought a lot of it with her and maybe Keith tweaked it a little so he could say it was his, but its really her experience and training that is working (as much as any of this "works").

But bros gonna bro and he had to credit and worship the dude. 

[izabella]

Both Keith and Nancy played their roles to keep the money flowing.  I think Keith loved to hear himself talk, and Nancy turned his word salads into classes.  Keith seems kinda lazy to me, so I think Nancy did whatever research and work was done to put their program together.  I wonder which one of them decided to bring elements of Scientology into it. 

Maybe it was Nancy.  She she was part of that group that was spying on former members and harassing them, which is something Scientology does to their "suppressives."  Police found a box of other people's banks statements in her house when they raided it.  Or was it Keith who brought in the Scientology tactics, and he just directed Nancy and the others to go after the former members, thus keeping his hands clean?

Keith put the pyramid scheme together, since that was the actual experience he brought to the table.  Nancy was his partner in that.  When Nancy's house was raided, they found $500,000 in cash in shoe boxes. 

So I think they are both neck deep in the money laundering, fraud, racketeering, identify theft, coercion, kidnapping, blackmail....I think Nancy wasn't part of DOS and maybe didn't know about it, but her daughter Lauren created it and Nancy doesn't seem to be troubled by that.

[sistermagpie]

4 hours ago, VioletMarx said:

I think Nancy is a bad and selfish person, but it amazes me that Marc credits Keith with curing his Tourette's when it was actually Nancy and her work with him that did it. Did we ever actually see where the techniques originated? I feel like Nancy brought a lot of it with her and maybe Keith tweaked it a little so he could say it was his, but its really her experience and training that is working (as much as any of this "works").

But bros gonna bro and he had to credit and worship the dude. 

Yeah, given how misogynist the whole place was, it doesn't surprise me that he would credit this brilliant "scientist/philosopher" Keith rather than giving credit to Nancy, who seems like the self-described girl who does all the work in the group project while Keith gets the credit. Bros definitely broing here.

[luckyroll3]

Love that Isabelle had Marc's number and directly called him on his "maybe you should consider the people you trust are lying to you" bullshit. Marc doesn't seem to care about anything happening in the company outside of treating Tourrette's. "Keith is branding women? Who cares, I'm healing Tourrette's!" "Oh they found bodies in the backyard? So what, we're curing Tourrette's." He sounds like an idiot. 

Did Isabelle ever say how she found out about DOS? I fully admit that I'm usually multitasking when this is one, so I may have missed it. 

Very interested in hearing Lauren's testimony and how it compares to Allison's.

[Door County Cherry]

2 minutes ago, luckyroll3 said:

Did Isabelle ever say how she found out about DOS? I fully admit that I'm usually multitasking when this is one, so I may have missed it. 

I don't know if she did or if her mom did. 

[blixie]

Quote

did Isabelle ever say how she found out about DOS?

No I think they just showed her fleeing, but given the timeline they showed Keith having the "emergency meeting" so I assume there was a brief period in 2017 before it hit mainstream media, that must of rippled through Albany. I mean in addition to any actual gossip with the women not in DOS confronting ones in it. Given her own experience wasn't that great if they could treat her like that it probably wasn't difficult to believe they would do something like DOS. I mean for some people like Nippy all it took was to see the brand I assume she was in the same group of NAWP.  Her only real conflict was that she still loved and appreciated Marc and she seemed to think he wasn't aware of that, but like how can you not know your leader is sleeping with like 95% of every woman in his inner circle?

[JeanJean]

On 10/31/2022 at 10:33 PM, patty1h said:

I felt kind of bad for the girl with Tourette's - you could see that her family life was full of stress. That scene in the kitchen with her parents was hella tense. 

I was appalled when her father said she would be "more efficient and productive." That's his daughter - it would have been nice if he had said "happier," too. She's not a machine FFS.

[DanaK]

Hopefully I’ve learned enough now from this series to be aware of when someone is trying to gaslight me and/or trying to take control of my thinking

[DanaK]

Ep 4: From Nancy: “This isn’t a sex case. It’s an abuse case”. Spot on Nancy. Keith really gaslit Lauren. How did he not commit an ethical breach by not telling Nancy he was with her daughter?

[blixie]

Jesus tapdancing Christ, I know cult leaders/brain washing, but like I feel like Michael on Arrested Development. HIM?!! This ridiculous pontificating little troll? I guess that makes Michelle some kind of ninth level impervious warrior, all, now I know I never agreed to fuck you...BREACH BREACH BREACH! I do feel bad for Lauren and at least Nancy is admitting culpability if only half way. She knew from the start he was seducing and lying to women right and left but knew nothing about her own daughter and DOS come the hell on lady.

I think I lost it when Lauren was all group sex? The only way I can grow is group sex?? Ugh, fine. That is why I can not truly sympathize with her,  when someone keeps asking you to do sick shit and to set up a pyramid scheme of abuse, stuff you clearly understood to be wrong, and you did it anyway, that ain't love honey, that ain't ethics. 

I think the grossest moment in an especially gross episode was the obvious pleasure he got of saying everyone will see the brand husbands, sisters, doctors...everyone will know. UGH, vomit forever.

[DanaK]

Man, the details of DOS and how Keith treated Lauren and other women are just gross. Keith was just a gross person and it will probably never make sense how so many fell under his spell and believed his BS for so long. But I guess so many cult leaders are like that. Michelle seemed to somewhat have his number though. I wish we had heard from Lauren directly

It feels like Nancy could see at least some things that were going on, but wanted to protect her business more than she wanted to deal with these things

It seemed to take Keith hiding in a closet and leaving Lauren to face the Mexican police for her to wake up and realize what a bad person he was. Kind of really late there Lauren. But at least she took the brave step of testifying against him

It looks like the next episode will focus on the Mexican girl confined to a room

So far, it feels like Season 2 is far more focused than Season 1 and doing a better job on drilling down and showing what bad stuff Keith, and NXIVM, did, morally and legally

Edited November 8, 2022 by DanaK

[Armchair Critic]

2 hours ago, DanaK said:

“This isn’t a sex case. It’s an abuse case”.

I think she said it wasn't about sex it was about power.

Still makes me laugh to think of Keith hiding in the closet.

He was trying to force her 18 year old daughter to have sex with him, I hope that was real regret Nancy showed and not just acting for the camera.

That woman's fried out hair with half of her black roots grown out was bugging me.

[DanaK]

23 minutes ago, Armchair Critic said:

I think she said it wasn't about sex it was about power.

I rewatched that part and she said it was “an abuse of power” and “they’re making sex the big thing because that’s what everybody wants to buy. It’s power.”, which makes more sense than just saying abuse

[Door County Cherry]

4 hours ago, blixie said:

I think the grossest moment in an especially gross episode was the obvious pleasure he got of saying everyone will see the brand husbands, sisters, doctors...everyone will know. UGH, vomit forever.

And then in an emergency meeting he had the audacity to say that they broke vows by telling the world about it even though he wanted people to know.  That's why you brand!

I want the documentarians to ask Nikki about the collateral.  I want to vomit at how she tried to bring the "reverse gender" BS into the situation.  It's that straw man's feminism that makes me want to scream.  They talk as if they went to a tattoo parlor to get a tattoo.  If a group of men went to get initials of some leader in the crude manner these women got their brands, the men would be judged too.  Especially if it came under the duress of being blackmailed.

4 hours ago, blixie said:

I do feel bad for Lauren and at least Nancy is admitting culpability if only half way. She knew from the start he was seducing and lying to women right and left but knew nothing about her own daughter and DOS come the hell on lady.

I do think putting the focus on Nancy this season is a compelling choice and I'm glad she agreed to participate.  It's a choice that had devastating consequences for her and for her children, especially since it sounds like she basically made them join in order to get her support. 

I think her feelings are complicated.  She's likely devastated for her family.  But there's also the frustration of realizing the guy she aligned with "ruined" her dreams because he couldn't keep it in his pants. She's likely frustrated because she likely saw her position as more equal to Keith than he did.  He was willing to go behind her back and try to seduce both of her daughters.  He succeeded with one and she didn't know for years.  Nothing says how little you matter when he could seduce hundreds (thousands?) of women in this organization and he chooses your daughter. 

It's a combination of anger about what happened and what could have been.  

In tonight's episode, they showed a little clip of Nancy kissing him the lips before Lauren came over.  It makes me wonder if they ever had something.  Does she wish they had something? 

I do have to admit that I absolutely laughed when she was looking at the sex toys they were purchasing.  

As an aside, Netflix has a documentary called Orgasm Inc.  It's rather quick but it's about One Taste which is another sex cult, believe it or not, that actually was explicitly about sex. I do recommend it because in that cult, the leader was a woman and employed so much of the same language and emotional manipulation that Keith did.  Fair warning, it's a bit more explicit than documentaries usually are. 

[kathe5133]

These woman are not "victims" of Keith.  Keith is just one of the symptoms of their own low self esteem.  Bonnie said "WTF" and walked away.  Sarah, (like her or not) said "WTF" and walked away.  I'm sure that countless others said "WTF" and since they already knew how to have lives, walked away and never felt the need to publicize that they were ever even involved.  If Keith hadn't snapped these damaged women up, some other low life would have.  And, Keith is not in jail simply because he "done these woman wrong".  He's in jail for various financial crimes, sex trafficking, and child pornography.  Nancy.  What about the shoe boxes full of cash?  Were you not aware that you lived in a country that requires you to pay taxes?  Not abiding by the rules of the country where you live could be deemed "unethical".  No moral conundrum there?   It seems everyone is rewriting the narrative to show just how Keith manipulated them.  And he did manipulate them.  But had they not been so damaged when they arrived at his door, they would have also said "WTF" and walked away.  I feel sorry for all of them and hope that they can get the help they need to recover from the mess they let themselves get led into.  I've seen a lot of negative thrown at Mark and Sarah for participating in this documentary as well as starting a podcast, but I see nothing wrong in them monetarizing their involvement.  They learned a lesson and have found a way to help others to learn and if they can make a living providing an education to those who don't have the where with all to spot the "Keiths" of the world, more power to them.  Nancy and her like are "sorry" now.  Sorry they got caught is more accurate.

[VioletMarx]

8 hours ago, Door County Cherry said:

And then in an emergency meeting he had the audacity to say that they broke vows by telling the world about it even though he wanted people to know.  That's why you brand!

I want the documentarians to ask Nikki about the collateral.  I want to vomit at how she tried to bring the "reverse gender" BS into the situation.  It's that straw man's feminism that makes me want to scream.  They talk as if they went to a tattoo parlor to get a tattoo.  If a group of men went to get initials of some leader in the crude manner these women got their brands, the men would be judged too.  Especially if it came under the duress of being blackmailed.

I want the documentarians to ask Nikki WHY NO MEN WERE BRANDED. The audio tapes have Keith talking about how wide spread the branding would be, how many people would see it - so why is this complex plan only for the women? Nothing to do with sex or power, right, NikkI? Right.

[sistermagpie]

9 hours ago, Door County Cherry said:

And then in an emergency meeting he had the audacity to say that they broke vows by telling the world about it even though he wanted people to know.  That's why you brand!

Makes sense though--the main point is that the women don't get to have control over who sees their brand. 

[procrasstinator]

16 hours ago, DanaK said:

Ep 4: From Nancy: “This isn’t a sex case. It’s an abuse case”. Spot on Nancy. Keith really gaslit Lauren. How did he not commit an ethical breach by not telling Nancy he was with her daughter?

Yes it was very clear Raniere didn’t think his rules applied to him.  Like most narcissists he thought he was above the law.  I have no idea about the spelling of Raniere but I just can’t bear to use his first name.  Seems too friendly in some way.

[procrasstinator]

15 hours ago, DanaK said:

It feels like Nancy could see at least some things that were going on, but wanted to protect her business more than she wanted to deal with these things

Yes that scene where Nancy was telling Raniere he was being inappropriate with his relationships and he went off on her in full blown narcissistic rage was where Nancy made her choice.  She said she felt so responsible for those women but she was instrumental in their continued abuse.  Also that scene where Nancy was telling how Raniere was constantly finding fault with her and so she silenced herself around him.  And just like her dynamic with her mother the more Raniere devalued her the more she worked for his approval.  So maybe Nancy was in that abuse cycle where you really can’t think in a rational way.  

14 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

That woman's fried out hair with half of her black roots grown out was bugging me.

Vero?

[DanaK]

49 minutes ago, procrasstinator said:

Yes it was very clear Raniere didn’t think his rules applied to him.  Like most narcissists he thought he was above the law.  I have no idea about the spelling of Raniere but I just can’t bear to use his first name.  Seems too friendly in some way.

I only use his first name because I don't want to always be thinking about how to spell his last name lol

[DanaK]

36 minutes ago, procrasstinator said:

Yes that scene where Nancy was telling Raniere he was being inappropriate with his relationships and he went off on her in full blown narcissistic rage was where Nancy made her choice.  She said she felt so responsible for those women but she was instrumental in their continued abuse.  Also that scene where Nancy was telling how Raniere was constantly finding fault with her and so she silenced herself around him.  And just like her dynamic with her mother the more Raniere devalued her the more she worked for his approval.  So maybe Nancy was in that abuse cycle where you really can’t think in a rational way.  

Vero?

I think it's pretty clear Nancy was included in Keith's abusive behavior, though at the same time, she seemed to want to desperately keep her business protected and growing. You have to ask, as I don't think Keith owned or had his name on any part of the business, why she didn't just chuck him over the side at some point. Based on Nancy's memories of Keith playing the older women very early on, I wonder if he had developed those relationships before he met Nancy and she started the business. All throughout NXIVM's history, it certainly seemed like there was a the business and then there was Keith in simultaneous relationships with many women, particularly those involved in the business. I don't know how all this went on for 20 years, especially with Keith continually promising a baby with several women but never following through

[izabella]

Keith impregnated more than a few women and ordered them to have abortions.  Pam Caffritz was the one who organized all of the abortions for the women.   I think he only had two kids - one with a woman who ran away with her child, and the one with one of the three Mexican sisters he groomed and had sex with, one of whom was locked in that room for 2 years and also had to have an abortion.

This show is absolutely terrible with timelines, meaning it's impossible to tell when anything in particular that they are showing was happening.  It's like it was deliberate so we can't tell what's what.

[patty1h]

13 hours ago, kathe5133 said:

These woman are not "victims" of Keith.  Keith is just one of the symptoms of their own low self esteem. 

This is what boggles my mind during every episode.  The whole organization was based on teaching people how to find and use their own power, how to be better, how to understand themselves, but most of the people highlighted in these episodes are so not in charge of their lives.  Their blindness to their own flaws is disturbing.

I was so disgusted listening during Ep. 4 when there was talk about what Keith wanted them to weigh and him promising to impregnate a few different followers, then holding that over their heads for years.   So sad how none of these people could see that the brilliant training they were supposed to be getting was not giving them a spine.

[procrasstinator]

1 hour ago, patty1h said:

This is what boggles my mind during every episode.  The whole organization was based on teaching people how to find and use their own power, how to be better, how to understand themselves, but most of the people highlighted in these episodes are so not in charge of their lives.  Their blindness to their own flaws is disturbing.

I was so disgusted listening during Ep. 4 when there was talk about what Keith wanted them to weigh and him promising to impregnate a few different followers, then holding that over their heads for years.   So sad how none of these people could see that the brilliant training they were supposed to be getting was not giving them a spine.

There’s a disconnection there for sure.  I don’t think the disconnection is as far removed from ordinary life as I’d like to think.  We all conform to group norms to some degree.  I think it was Stanley Milgram who did the obedience experiments using (fake) electric shocks and found the majority of people administered these electric shocks if told to by someone they perceived to be in authority.  I think of all the different Buddhist groups in the west where the leader has abused sexually and/or physically/ emotionally followers and people tell themselves oh this is a teaching.  This is crazy wisdom or whatever.  These are extreme examples but I see conformist behaviour in my classroom all the time.  No one else is making a comment in class so they don’t either.  I’m sure there are many better examples out there but we are social animals.  

[For Cereals]

On 10/31/2022 at 10:10 PM, lyric said:

Man, I’d forgotten how much I cannot stand the theme song. Like nails on a chalkboard. 

Yes!  I hate it!

[sistermagpie]

Can anyone explain this...thing...on Nancy's wall?

Edited November 9, 2022 by sistermagpie

[ninjago]

Every episode I'm semi-distracted by trying to figure out how much they made money on this thing.  People came to their classes/lectures, right?  That was the source of income for the group?  But weren't most of the people in the classes people who worked for the group all ready, like Lauren and Nicki?  So they got paid by Nxvim and turned around and spent that money on classes at NXVIM?  How many outsiders actually came to these classes?  Did the classes pay for the big compound and the seemingly unending banquets and fancy dress parties they were always throwing?

Or was Bronfman underwriting all of it?

[DanaK]

2 minutes ago, ninjago said:

Every episode I'm semi-distracted by trying to figure out how much they made money on this thing.  People came to their classes/lectures, right?  That was the source of income for the group?  But weren't most of the people in the classes people who worked for the group all ready, like Lauren and Nicki?  So they got paid by Nxvim and turned around and spent that money on classes at NXVIM?  How many outsiders actually came to these classes?  Did the classes pay for the big compound and the seemingly unending banquets and fancy dress parties they were always throwing?

Or was Bronfman underwriting all of it?

It sounded like Bronfman had put in a lot of money, but I don't know if that paid for everything. Plus of course, people paying several thousand for classes, but I don't know if those who joined NXIVM had to pay for the classes, but they did teach classes and weren't paid a lot so the organization won out there with near slave labor

[Rlb8031]

6 minutes ago, ninjago said:

Every episode I'm semi-distracted by trying to figure out how much they made money on this thing.  People came to their classes/lectures, right?  That was the source of income for the group?  But weren't most of the people in the classes people who worked for the group all ready, like Lauren and Nicki?  So they got paid by Nxvim and turned around and spent that money on classes at NXVIM?  How many outsiders actually came to these classes?  Did the classes pay for the big compound and the seemingly unending banquets and fancy dress parties they were always throwing?

Or was Bronfman underwriting all of it?

You should go back and re-watch part 1. I think the Oxenbergs said they paid something like $5k per person for the first 5-7 day program which was after the first class which was several hundred dollars. If everyone only goes that far and there were actually 17k people that went   through the introductory program, the company would have produced $85M. Additional classes/programs were more expensive, so they were throwing off a fair amount of money. My sense was the Bronfman money went to subsidize those people that moved to the top levels, plus those folks were also pushed to give a LOT of their own wealth or whatever they could pry out of their families. There was a reason that a lot of the participants were wealthy trust fund kids who sourced others similarly situated.

[DanaK]

2 minutes ago, Rlb8031 said:

You should go back and re-watch part 1. I think the Oxenbergs said they paid something like $5k per person for the first 5-7 day program which was after the first class which was several hundred dollars. If everyone only goes that far and there were actually 17k people that went   through the introductory program, the company would have produced $85M. Additional classes/programs were more expensive, so they were throwing off a fair amount of money. My sense was the Bronfman money went to subsidize those people that moved to the top levels, plus those folks were also pushed to give a LOT of their own wealth or whatever they could pry out of their families. There was a reason that a lot of the participants were wealthy trust fund kids who sourced others similarly situated.

As well, I recall in Season 1 some of the ex-members talking about basically having to work for free because they put in a lot of hours and weren't compensated for the extra time

[izabella]

Bronfman underwrote a lot of it, including the nearly $70M Keith lost in commodities trading in a period of 2-3 years. 

As for the rest, it was a pyramid scheme.  People paid for the week long intensive intro class, and then kept paying and paying and paying for more modules.  As soon as they finished one class, they were told they needed another.  They also recruited people to take classes, and received commissions from the payments that the people they recruited pay for their modules.  The more people they recruited, the more money they made.  Mark recruited India, for example, so he was getting commissions on everything she paid for, and everything HER recruits paid for.    Same with Sarah.  Sarah even opened up a center, and she was getting commissions on all those people taking classes at her center, plus commissions from their recruits and their recruits.

Like all pyramid schemes, only people at the top made big bucks, like Keith, Nancy, Mark and Sarah.

[DanaK]

5 minutes ago, izabella said:

Bronfman underwrote a lot of it, including the nearly $70M Keith lost in commodities trading in a period of 2-3 years. 

As for the rest, it was a pyramid scheme.  People paid for the week long intensive intro class, and then kept paying and paying and paying for more modules.  As soon as they finished one class, they were told they needed another.  They also recruited people to take classes, and received commissions from the payments that the people they recruited pay for their modules.  The more people they recruited, the more money they made.  Mark recruited India, for example, so he was getting commissions on everything she paid for, and everything HER recruits paid for.    Same with Sarah.  Sarah even opened up a center, and she was getting commissions on all those people taking classes at her center, plus commissions from their recruits and their recruits.

Like all pyramid schemes, only people at the top made big bucks, like Keith, Nancy, Mark and Sarah.

I'm just a little flabbergasted that people would pay a few thousand for a course and then pay several thousand more for more courses. I'm not exactly rich but I'm not poor either and that sounds like too much money even to supposedly better yourself. I'm sure lots fell off and didn't go further but it sounds like too many of these people who did were well off but directionless and not very savvy