The Vow

[TVbitch]

Totally revolting how that whole group of men (and women!) seemed to just go along with KR's "women are the cause of every injustice in the world and must be punished" class. Surely some walked out or challenged it?  

Nippy really seems to own that he bought into a bunch of really fucked up shit and that's on him. He has the shock and rage of someone who has woken up from a self-inflicted nightmare. But I would like to hear how he was able to make that sick misogynistic shit okay in his mind, and why Sarah's "branding" was his breaking point. 

[Grammaeryn]

A couple things. I have been Catherine Oxenberg - joking about something uncomfortable and traumatic too soon. She looked pretty apologetic and ashamed. The NXVM survivors might react like family members. If you were part of the family, yeah you can make fun of dad. The neighbors mom - shut your face.

Keith has these views on women, takes millions of dollars from the successful ones as an extra fucked up punishment. Yeesh. I guess women in the military does not exist in Keith’s world.

I also want to thank my lucky stars for the kind, emotionally whole men in my life. I was raised by a Keith-lite and NEVER AGAIN.

[ninjago]

Why did the filmmakers include Catherine/India in this documentary so prominently when they are making their own documentary, focused exclusively on themselves?  They could have been cut out of this series easily-they were almost a distraction, running parallel to the real story.

[Grumpbump]

There was a lot of yelling at the tv tonight when I watched the latest episode.  It's been hard for me to get a grip on what NXIVM is really about, but the 10-11 episode really laid it all out there.  All along, I have felt that some of this nonsense was familiar to me in an I-can't-quite-put-my-finger-on-it way.  But now I know why.  Hope this is isn't TMI but in my early 30s (15 odd years ago), I was in a relationship with a very KR-like man.  That video of Allison Mack meeting KR, that's probably exactly what I looked like in the beginning.  And I was there for it all - the double speak , the discussions where everything is a question which takes you into more questions that he controls, the word salad nonsense - all crafted to keep me off balance and spinning.  I was so naive and so easily taken in by the energy,  the passion, the quest for so much knowledge.  But the whole time the only one of us becoming wise was him figuring out my inadequacies  for his benefit (he did not work - I was the sole breadwinner, housekeeper, cook - and how I held down a full time job with everything I had do I have no fucking clue).  Years go by and my gut starts to overtake my heart and gain control of my brain and I got out.  But it was not pretty nor easy.  I don't have video of me during that time.  What I have is boxes of journals.  Re-reading them now is exactly like watching this show and yelling at my younger self for falling for this clearly calculating and misogynistic pseudo-philosophy.   It's the fucking TRUTH....I never ever ever intended to join a cult (cut me some slack, one guy but still very cult-like).

 

[mamadrama]

8 hours ago, Bitsy said:

Everything that went on in that JNESS class (men giving out "faults" to the women, the women being publicly humiliated and being punished) was straightforward BDSM.   I got the impression that Bonnie sleeping on a dog bed as penance was not something directly ordered by Keith, but resulted from something that went on between her and Mark privately.  She mentioned it was because she'd "said something against Mark". And I think Mark's guilt was because he issued her faults and perhaps even issued the penance (with the original idea coming from Keith, of course).

I don't buy that Mark was so upset and filled with shame because he "let" his wife sleep on a dog bed; I think he had a direct hand in it.  Keith tricked them into living out his BDSM fantasies, but Keith was the only one getting off. 

And I think Mark's freakout was also because he's probably aware of how lucky he is that Bonnie hasn't left him yet (even though I think she will eventually). 

The main difference between what they were doing and BDSM is that true BDSM is a mutual fetish (not really the right word, but it's late) and willingly carried out by both parties in a safe and comfortable environment. There are rules involved. Both parties derive something pleasurable from it. What Keith was doing was sadistic-the women weren't getting any pleasure or satisfaction from what was happening.

I think Mark was also embarrassed. By Catherine "outing" him with that story it belied his *good guy* persona. Throughout this whole thing he's tried to come across as a good guy caught up in a bad situation. A good guy who was blissfully unaware of what was happening. That story made him an active participant. 

My 9yo watched with me and she was PISSED over the little example of Keith yelling at the woman and not reacting when she yelled back. "That's not fair," she said. "He jump scared her. He didn't act scared because he knew it was coming when she yelled at him!" She didn't understand the rest of it, but she got that.

So they spend most of the training berating women for wanting to be "protected", yet STILL call the men's group the "society of protectors"? Huh. 🙄

[FozzyBear]

7 hours ago, mamadrama said:

The main difference between what they were doing and BDSM is that true BDSM is a mutual fetish (not really the right word, but it's late) and willingly carried out by both parties in a safe and comfortable environment. There are rules involved. Both parties derive something pleasurable from it. What Keith was doing was sadistic-the women weren't getting any pleasure or satisfaction from what was happening.

I think Mark was also embarrassed. By Catherine "outing" him with that story it belied his *good guy* persona. Throughout this whole thing he's tried to come across as a good guy caught up in a bad situation. A good guy who was blissfully unaware of what was happening. That story made him an active participant. 

My 9yo watched with me and she was PISSED over the little example of Keith yelling at the woman and not reacting when she yelled back. "That's not fair," she said. "He jump scared her. He didn't act scared because he knew it was coming when she yelled at him!" She didn't understand the rest of it, but she got that.

So they spend most of the training berating women for wanting to be "protected", yet STILL call the men's group the "society of protectors"? Huh. 🙄

You got a smart kid there! 
That bugged me too. And even with all of his manipulations his point still pretty much didn’t work. He even had to admit she didn’t react much. 
that entire section was just nauseating. Keith spouting all this hateful crap and then saying “that’s not what I think. It’s what other people think.” with this ain’t-I-a-cute-little-stinker face. I just want to throw something at him.

On another note, I totally remember Consumer Buyline! I was a kid, but I remember the commercials. It was pretty popular at the time. I think I thought it was some sort of wholesale club like Costco (again I was around 13 or so), turns out it was a pyramid scheme. That totally makes sense! From what I gathered from the brief description we were given they were just using new member fees to act like they were getting discounts? Something like that. It’s interesting that he transitioned straight into cult. I guess the basic skill sets you need to sell a pyramid scheme and sell a cult are pretty similar. I’d like a little more on Nancy. She’s creepy as hell. What happened to her?

[HC87]

3 hours ago, FozzyBear said:

You got a smart kid there! 
That bugged me too. And even with all of his manipulations his point still pretty much didn’t work. He even had to admit she didn’t react much. 
that entire section was just nauseating. Keith spouting all this hateful crap and then saying “that’s not what I think. It’s what other people think.” with this ain’t-I-a-cute-little-stinker face. I just want to throw something at him.

On another note, I totally remember Consumer Buyline! I was a kid, but I remember the commercials. It was pretty popular at the time. I think I thought it was some sort of wholesale club like Costco (again I was around 13 or so), turns out it was a pyramid scheme. That totally makes sense! From what I gathered from the brief description we were given they were just using new member fees to act like they were getting discounts? Something like that. It’s interesting that he transitioned straight into cult. I guess the basic skill sets you need to sell a pyramid scheme and sell a cult are pretty similar. I’d like a little more on Nancy. She’s creepy as hell. What happened to her?

Agreed, while KR is clearly the main villain in this, I think Nancy is getting somewhat of a free-ride in this...she was a big part of restoring him after the Consumer Buyline bs, no?

[mamadrama]

4 hours ago, FozzyBear said:

You got a smart kid there! 
That bugged me too. And even with all of his manipulations his point still pretty much didn’t work. He even had to admit she didn’t react much. 
that entire section was just nauseating. Keith spouting all this hateful crap and then saying “that’s not what I think. It’s what other people think.” with this ain’t-I-a-cute-little-stinker face. I just want to throw something at him.

On another note, I totally remember Consumer Buyline! I was a kid, but I remember the commercials. It was pretty popular at the time. I think I thought it was some sort of wholesale club like Costco (again I was around 13 or so), turns out it was a pyramid scheme. That totally makes sense! From what I gathered from the brief description we were given they were just using new member fees to act like they were getting discounts? Something like that. It’s interesting that he transitioned straight into cult. I guess the basic skill sets you need to sell a pyramid scheme and sell a cult are pretty similar. I’d like a little more on Nancy. She’s creepy as hell. What happened to her?

And when he did jump scare her, he exaggerated her response when he mimicked it. 

I seriously want to kick that smug little grin off his face. When he was handing out shit about women's tight jeans, someone should've given HIM the "biggest dick" award-abd made it clear that they weren't talking about penis size. 

[Maysie]

12 hours ago, mamadrama said:

I think Mark was also embarrassed. By Catherine "outing" him with that story it belied his *good guy* persona. Throughout this whole thing he's tried to come across as a good guy caught up in a bad situation. A good guy who was blissfully unaware of what was happening. That story made him an active participant. 

That's true. We've had at least two episodes (I think one of the early ones) of Mark talking about how he was never a real guy's guy or macho, and that he was always much more sensitive than other guys. And so his need to keep that strong male bond with Keith must have been overridden whatever part of him (I'd say instinct, but we know what NXIVM says about that!) should have been repelled at what was happening at those workshops and going on in his own relationship with his wife. So that's a whole different kind of master/slave relationship with Keith. In fact, now that I think about it, the "readiness drills," where Keith would text his SOP guys and expect an immediate "Ready!" in response is kind of like the drills the masters put their slaves through.

There was so much wrong in those workshops that I'd forgotten about Keith getting in that woman's face and screaming at her. The thing about that is, generally, a woman just doesn't have the deep voice that's going to be as intimidating as a man's voice, so most men are going to have a bit of a head start on any woman with that intimidation method. It would have been fascinating if a woman who had some basic knowledge about body language had chosen to push back a little - you know, stand super close to him, cross her arms, widen her stance and basically never break eye contact. I wonder how he would have felt about little princesses then.

Also, in the men's session, when Keith was discussing anger and the subsequent need to fuck in response to that anger, I got a real rapey vibe from him. Mark referred to it as "porn," but I could only think "rape" because it came across rather violent to me.

[Twopper]

On 10/6/2020 at 6:55 PM, Armchair Critic said:

The Lost Women of NXIVM, just started watching, it features Frank Parlato and gives more info about Pam.

https://www.investigationdiscovery.com/tv-shows/lost-women-of-nxivm/full-episodes/the-lost-women-of-nxivm

thanks for mentioning this.  I watched it almost immediately after the last episode of this series.   It really helped pull things together better.  The first part was about the "suicide" of two women and the death by cancer of two others;  the second part focuses more on Raniere and DOS.  I need to watch that second part  again.   Every time I see DOS, I think of computer programming, but this DOS is women being programmed. 

About the dog bed, in the last episode.   I thought the dog belonged to Bonnie and Mark, because it seemed so connected to the story about the dog bed.  Or maybe they just borrowed the dog, for the imagery of them needing a large dog bed, and then it turned out the dog bed was for Bonnie.  Everything about that was cringe-making.

Someone suggested that the directors kept asking Sarah to show the brand, and she had no idea that it would be shown so often since so much of what they filmed probably didn't make it to the show.  I did like the little " commercial " she did.  That was perfect for exposing the branding.  Too bad we had only seen it eleventy million times before. 

[Cheezwiz]

1 hour ago, Maysie said:

Also, in the men's session, when Keith was discussing anger and the subsequent need to fuck in response to that anger, I got a real rapey vibe from him. Mark referred to it as "porn," but I could only think "rape" because it came across rather violent to me.

That was really disturbing to watch. And did anyone else notice that he kept saying that "when men are angry and aggressive, they want to grab something and fuck it". Not fuck SOMEONE, but some THING. He repeated this over and over. Women are not even human to him. They are things to be used.

[Maysie]

11 minutes ago, Cheezwiz said:

And did anyone else notice that he kept saying that "when men are angry and aggressive, they want to grab something and fuck it". Not fuck SOMEONE, but some THING. He repeated this over and over. Women are not even human to him. They are things to be used.

Yes! I did get that! I think that's part of the rapey vibe. And you're right - women are things, not people.

[Bitsy]

2 hours ago, Maysie said:

There was so much wrong in those workshops that I'd forgotten about Keith getting in that woman's face and screaming at her. The thing about that is, generally, a woman just doesn't have the deep voice that's going to be as intimidating as a man's voice, so most men are going to have a bit of a head start on any woman with that intimidation method. It would have been fascinating if a woman who had some basic knowledge about body language had chosen to push back a little - you know, stand super close to him, cross her arms, widen her stance and basically never break eye contact. I wonder how he would have felt about little princesses then.

I think that woman was intentionally giving him weak little prissy screams because she knew that's what he wanted her to do so he could prove his point.   Those people all learned what to do and not do when it came to Keith.  Showing him up in front of a group of people?  That's a no no.  You play along.

15 hours ago, mamadrama said:

The main difference between what they were doing and BDSM is that true BDSM is a mutual fetish (not really the right word, but it's late) and willingly carried out by both parties in a safe and comfortable environment. There are rules involved. Both parties derive something pleasurable from it. What Keith was doing was sadistic-the women weren't getting any pleasure or satisfaction from what was happening.

The women were getting satisfaction out of it - the satisfaction of self improvement and better intimacy with their partners (according to them). Bonnie said she was proud of what she was doing.  That's what a lot of people get out of the "discipline" part of BDSM.  It's not necessarily about directly getting off from it.

I disagree with your definition of BDSM.  Mutual respect, rules, safety, trust, mutual pleasure - that's all just ideal practice.  Lack of those things does not necessarily make the activities something other than BDSM.  Keith was a sadist?  Yes, and that's what the S stands for.  And I would say many of the women in this cult were willingly engaged in a lot of different forms of masochism.  Keith committed crimes that were non-consensual and that's a totally different thing, but what Bonnie and Sarah were doing in that JNESS program was consensual. 

Later when all of their cult thinking was shattered, they "realized" that what they were doing was kink.  But like a lot of things they did within the cult, I think the delayed realization was largely because they had been kidding themselves or didn't want to admit what they were really doing.   

[JD5166]

On 10/12/2020 at 5:27 PM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

ITA - when Mark was getting visibly upset, I thought wow, way to make YOUR WIFE'S TRAUMA all about you. Instead of trying to comfort her or make her feel better in any way when she was crying about sleeping on the floor in a dog bed, he was going on and on being defensive about how he wasn't stupid for joining a cult and how he thought he was doing something good.

Look, I get that they were all manipulated by Keith and they're all allowed to have feelings about that, but making himself the victim when his wife is crying about something that she's clearly still upset about was not a good look. And yes, you WERE stupid, Mark. You saw your wife sleeping on the floor as penance and you thought this was totally fine? If I told Mr. EB that I wanted to sleep on a dog bed on the floor instead of on our nice comfy mattress, he would think I was insane. And if I told him it was for penance, he would think I was even crazier.

On top of that Mark KNEW why she was doing it. She said it was penance for speaking against him. If Mr. EB told me that he was going to punish himself for arguing with me, I would tell him that was silly and unnecessary. Instead, Mark was totally fine with his wife sleeping on the floor as penance. Even if he told Keith that he was uncomfortable with some of the SOP BS, he knew Bonnie was sleeping on the ground as penance. He saw her doing it. He knew why. And still he stayed. The fact that he knew all of the shit the men put the women through at SOP and then still didn't fully believe Bonnie when she told him about DOS is mind boggling.

Part of me wonders if Bonnie stayed with Mark because they have this shared traumatic experience and it's easier to be with someone who lived through it so you don't have to explain the whole thing than it would be to find someone new and have to (1) disclose it (2) get a lot of follow up questions about it (3) possibly get dumped because they just don't get it.

Or that his calls were being taped with “his Marcos” and he knew that later he’d maybe not look so terrible if he TRIED to make it seem wrong.

They should’ve started with this episode, after three it just went downhill until now. 

Edited October 14, 2020 by JD5166

[mamadrama]

On 10/14/2020 at 7:09 PM, Bitsy said:

.  It's not necessarily about directly getting off from it.

I disagree with your definition of BDSM.  Mutual respect, rules, safety, trust, mutual pleasure - that's all just ideal practice.  Lack of those things does not necessarily make the activities something other than BDSM.  Keith was a sadist?  Yes, and that's what the S stands for.  

Thank you. After 20 years of practicing it I'm very well aware of what the "S" stands for...

And I never said nor implied that one must "get off". I said it had to be mutual and pleasurable, not orgasmic or even sexual. Those of us in the community practice for a multitude of reasons, sexual gratification is but one.

Lack of legitimate consent is a huge part of the reason this thing finally exploded. With the amount of gaslighting, hypnotism, pseudoscience therapy, and general whackery (not to mention the blackmail bullshit going down in DOS) I question any "benefits" these people claimed to have derived from the program. Bonnie left NXIVM shortly after that SOP thing. That was the tipping point for her. India literally had to be deprogrammed by a cult expert and now compares her experiences to rape. 

Edited October 16, 2020 by mamadrama

[mamadrama]

3 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

That was really disturbing to watch. And did anyone else notice that he kept saying that "when men are angry and aggressive, they want to grab something and fuck it". Not fuck SOMEONE, but some THING. He repeated this over and over. Women are not even human to him. They are things to be used.

Yep, someTHING. Fuck IT. (And it wasn't even necessary that the women like it, that was just an added bonus. Ugh.)

[JD5166]

23 hours ago, JD5166 said:

Or that his calls were being taped with “his Marcos” and he knew that later he’d maybe not look so terrible if he TRIED to make it seem wrong.

They should’ve started with this episode, after three it just went downhill until now. 

I am quoting myself because it bothered me all day I said ”his Marcos” when I meant “his Keithos” I might have been drinking. Lol The pet names these two have is so.....gross. Mark is a thirsty man, I wonder what his home life was Ike that he is so freakin needy.

[mamadrama]

1 hour ago, JD5166 said:

I am quoting myself because it bothered me all day I said ”his Marcos” when I meant “his Keithos” I might have been drinking. Lol The pet names these two have is so.....gross. Mark is a thirsty man, I wonder what his home life was Ike that he is so freakin needy.

I'm finding the Keithos/Markos bromance to be another one of the more interesting points that the series is almost completely ignoring. 

[DanaK]

Catherine and India were interviewed on the syndicated medical show The Doctors this morning and talked about their experience and India’s recovery and her Starz NXIVM series. I’ve watched half so far and it’s interesting

[Door County Cherry]

On 10/13/2020 at 1:48 PM, Tachi Rocinante said:

  Reveal spoiler

So The Vow won't show the reunion or talk to India because they were doing their own show for Starz.  A very tiny part of me is side-eyeing this.

 

I do think India gets to tell her story the way she wants to tell her story but I do agree they should have reduced how much they showed Catherine if she's going to be in the new documentary too.  To be fair to her, she may not have known at the time she was filming some of this that her daughter would want to do a documentary.  India was still with Keith.

Anyway, if anyone else is going to watch, I did create a thread for it in the Specials forum. 

 

[Armchair Critic]

Earlier in the series Bonnie said she had to hide in corners of their apartment to make phone calls because Mark had the place under surveillance. He was not a good guy, that’s why I was shocked they were still together. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

There's a new show called The Con on ABC. Each episode profiles a different con artist and their scam. I don't know how much they're going to delve into the psychology of the perpetrator vs the victims, but since Keith is really an abusive con man who ran a MLM, hopefully the show will offer some insight into how people like him manage to get so many to trust him (which I know a lot of people have discussed here).

The show just premiered a few days ago. I created a forum for it here if anyone else wants to watch!

[Fleegull]

Regarding how involved Allison Mack was and why she was arrested while other DOS members weren't (in spoiler tags because it might be mentioned in the finale).

Spoiler

There are tapes, played at trial, where she is colluding with Keith on the creation of DOS. They talk about collecting collateral and branding. Keith mentions that each of the strokes of brand should have a ritual behind it. Keith wants the women to be nude while the brand is placed on their bodies. She was right there from the conception of DOS and put all of his ideas into practice. You can hear some of the tapes here.

BDSM sans consent of all parties involved is not BDSM, it's just sadism.

Edited October 16, 2020 by Fleegull

[sadie]

1 hour ago, Fleegull said:

Regarding how involved Allison Mack was and why she was arrested while other DOS members weren't (in spoiler tags because it might be mentioned in the finale).

  Reveal spoiler

There are tapes, played at trial, where she is colluding with Keith on the creation of DOS. They talk about collecting collateral and branding. Keith mentions that each of the strokes of brand should have a ritual behind it. Keith wants the women to be nude while the brand is placed on their bodies. She was right there from the conception of DOS and put all of his ideas into practice. You can hear some of the tapes here.

BDSM sans consent of all parties involved is not BDSM, it's just sadism.

Ummm, no words. That is maybe one of the sickest things I’ve ever heard. How Mack avoided prison time is baffling. Sick sick people. I am not a vengeful person but I hope KR gets his ass kicked in prison repeatedly and Mack should be shunned in open society until someone can prove she’s not be the psycho she sounds like here. Once you peer behind the curtain and see what evil was really happening you can’t imagine that people could do these things. 

And whoever uppost said Mark was not a good guy was right on the money. I’m a bit upset that up until Ep 8 they wanted us to think he was just some golly shucks good guy that got out once he knew things weren’t what they seemed. His hands were just as dirty IMO on a lot of things. He is no “hero” or whatever bullshit they are trying to sell about him. Run Bonnie, run far, run fast.

[MicheleinPhilly]

9 hours ago, Door County Cherry said:

I do think India gets to tell her story the way she wants to tell her story but I do agree they should have reduced how much they showed Catherine if she's going to be in the new documentary too.  To be fair to her, she may not have known at the time she was filming some of this that her daughter would want to do a documentary.  India was still with Keith.

I don't really have a problem with how much Catherine featured in this (aside from the fact that a lot of it was boring) because she really was the catalyst for bringing this whole thing down. Would there even have been any criminal charges filed if not for her efforts? I also don't think the media would have paid any attention without the whole "former Dynasty star tries to rescue daughter from a cult" angle. 

Just now, sadie said:

Ummm, no words. That is maybe one of the sickest things I’ve ever heard. How Mack avoided prison time is baffling. Sick sick people. I am not a vengeful person but I hope KR gets his ass kicked in prison repeatedly and Mack should be shunned in open society until someone can prove she’s not be the psycho she sounds like here. Once you peer behind the curtain and see what evil was really happening you can’t imagine that people could do these things. 

And whoever uppost said Mark was not a good guy was right on the money. I’m a bit upset that up until Ep 8 they wanted us to think he was just some golly shucks good guy that got out once he knew things weren’t what they seemed. His hands were just as dirty IMO on a lot of things. He is no “hero” or whatever bullshit they are trying to sell about him. Run Bonnie, run far, run fast.

I think Mack is still awaiting sentencing, no? Or did she plead in exchange for no jail time? 

I'm flabbergasted that they're still married. 

[Twopper]

2 hours ago, MicheleinPhilly said:

I think Mack is still awaiting sentencing, no? Or did she plead in exchange for no jail time? 

I'm flabbergasted that they're still married. 

I was surprised that they were still married, too.  The original sentencing date was in Sept 2019, but it was postponed so more info could be gathered and, then, I think everything seemed to stop because of COVID. 

[luckyroll3]

3 hours ago, Fleegull said:

Regarding how involved Allison Mack was and why she was arrested while other DOS members weren't (in spoiler tags because it might be mentioned in the finale).

  Hide contents

There are tapes, played at trial, where she is colluding with Keith on the creation of DOS. They talk about collecting collateral and branding. Keith mentions that each of the strokes of brand should have a ritual behind it. Keith wants the women to be nude while the brand is placed on their bodies. She was right there from the conception of DOS and put all of his ideas into practice. You can hear some of the tapes here.

 

2 hours ago, sadie said:

Ummm, no words. That is maybe one of the sickest things I’ve ever heard. How Mack avoided prison time is baffling. Sick sick people. I am not a vengeful person but I hope KR gets his ass kicked in prison repeatedly and Mack should be shunned in open society until someone can prove she’s not be the psycho she sounds like here. Once you peer behind the curtain and see what evil was really happening you can’t imagine that people could do these things. 

It makes it even more disturbing that she would sign up for a class about Gender, Sex, and Power.

[mamadrama]

25 minutes ago, luckyroll3 said:

It makes it even more disturbing that she would sign up for a class about Gender, Sex, and Power.

I can understand why her classmates were uncomfortable. 

[tljgator]

And we thought it already had too many episodes as it is -- good lord: The Vow Renewed for Second Season

 

[Door County Cherry]

5 minutes ago, tljgator said:

And we thought it already had too many episodes as it is -- good lord: The Vow Renewed for Second Season

 

This does not surprise me in the least.  With so much not covered, it made me wonder if they were hoping for another season even though it's not typical for documentaries. 

[DanaK]

6 minutes ago, tljgator said:

And we thought it already had too many episodes as it is -- good lord: The Vow Renewed for Second Season

 

If they can focus on the trial, the crimes, the inner circle, and other ex-members without a lot of endless phone calling and texting, it will likely be riveting

[tljgator]

12 minutes ago, DanaK said:

If they can focus on the trial, the crimes, the inner circle, and other ex-members without a lot of endless phone calling and texting, it will likely be riveting

Agreed, but I wish it didn't feel like such a big "if" ...given what we've gotten (or haven't gotten) so far.

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, tljgator said:

And we thought it already had too many episodes as it is -- good lord: The Vow Renewed for Second Season

 

Maybe next season we'll get to see this "brand" I've heard about!

[MicheleinPhilly]

1 hour ago, DanaK said:

If they can focus on the trial, the crimes, the inner circle, and other ex-members without a lot of endless phone calling and texting, it will likely be riveting

From the linked article: 

"Set against the backdrop of the federal trial of The United States against NXIVM co-founder Keith Raniere, The Vow: Part Two will offer an exclusive view into Raniere's innermost circle. It'll delve into the stories of NXIVM’s top leadership in the US and Mexico, and into powerful, intimate stories of DOS members."

I'm not terribly optimistic though given that it is the same filmmaking team. Hopefully the attention the series has received will allow them to bring new people into the mix - like an EDITOR or whoever the person is that transforms hours and hours of footage into a cohesive narrative. 

[Cheezwiz]

1 hour ago, tljgator said:

And we thought it already had too many episodes as it is -- good lord: The Vow Renewed for Second Season

Good grief. It had better be more compelling than Season 1, which honestly could have been edited by at least 1/2. I've never heard of a docuseries getting renewed, so maybe that was the endgame. Not sure I'll bother to watch, as Season 1 has been a chore.

[LeGrandElephant]

I am so annoyed that they haven’t mentioned any of Keith’s teenage victims - victims of rape (yes “statutory” but when the girl is 12 and the guy is in his 30s that’s not a grey area) and of long-term imprisonment (which Lauren Saltman was super involved with - what was Sarah’s reaction to that?). I get that those victims probably didn’t want to be featured on this documentary, and maybe refused to give even anonymous interviews (like the episode about “Jane” that never said who she was), but couldn’t they still do an episode showing Mark, Sarah, etc, reacting to the news of those victims? Even if they just showed them reading the NYT articles about it and talking about how appalled they were, that would be a way to bring it into this documentary. I guess they could still do that in the last episode, but even if they do, ignoring it for 8 episodes while they show endless footage of phone calls and unsafe driving (Catherine, stop holding your phone up to your face while you’re driving) still shows some pretty messed up priorities for this docuseries. And at this point, I’m not really expecting them to bring this stuff up in the last episode anyway, but even if they do I’m not so sure that’s good enough. 

Edited October 16, 2020 by LeGrandElephant

[Door County Cherry]

50 minutes ago, MicheleinPhilly said:

I'm not terribly optimistic though given that it is the same filmmaking team. Hopefully the attention the series has received will allow them to bring new people into the mix

Or hopefully hear some of the things that were missing/people want to see and focus on those things for the next season.

 

[mamadrama]

I think I misunderstood the narrative of this series. I thought it was a 9 part series about NXIVM (more specifically, DOS). But it's really about a handful of ex members' experience in the cult. And that's fine, but I think I'm disappointed because I was expecting some indepth information about the formation of the cult, how the "tech" worked and was created, the money laundering, underage sex, etc. Instead, it's more or less the personal experiences of a small number of ex members. Kinda like if you'd sat down to watch FYRE FRAUD thinking it was going to be an overview of the failed festival, only to learn that the documentary was really about Influencers A, B,& C's experiences with the festival. 

1 hour ago, Cheezwiz said:

Good grief. It had better be more compelling than Season 1, which honestly could have been edited by at least 1/2. I've never heard of a docuseries getting renewed, so maybe that was the endgame. Not sure I'll bother to watch, as Season 1 has been a chore.

Season 2 had better be about how Bonnie gets her shit together and finally leaves Mark. Just kidding! It will probably be about Sarah's quest to have her brand removed. 

(Not trying to Oxenberg the situation. I know it's not really funny.)

[MicheleinPhilly]

6 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

I think I misunderstood the narrative of this series. I thought it was a 9 part series about NXIVM (more specifically, DOS). But it's really about a handful of ex members' experience in the cult. And that's fine, but I think I'm disappointed because I was expecting some indepth information about the formation of the cult, how the "tech" worked and was created, the money laundering, underage sex, etc. Instead, it's more or less the personal experiences of a small number of ex members. Kinda like if you'd sat down to watch FYRE FRAUD thinking it was going to be an overview of the failed festival, only to learn that the documentary was really about Influencers A, B,& C's experiences with the festival. 

I don't recall seeing this article before but I wish that I had as it gives me a WHOLE different perspective on the filmmakers. 

https://variety.com/2020/tv/features/the-vow-nxivm-documentary-filmmakers-religion-cult-allison-mack-1234766987/

[tljgator]

Quote

The Lost Women of NXIVM, just started watching, it features Frank Parlato and gives more info about Pam.

https://www.investigationdiscovery.com/tv-shows/lost-women-of-nxivm/full-episodes/the-lost-women-of-nxivm

Thanks for this link, Armchair Critic...now THIS is some interesting (and ridiculously shady) stuff. I mean, when the lowest of low -- Roger Stone -- shows up to tell us how horrible he thinks Keith is, that tells me most of what I need to know. *shudder*  The Vow doesn't even come close to this stuff.

[Guest]

6 hours ago, tljgator said:

And we thought it already had too many episodes as it is -- good lord: The Vow Renewed for Second Season

 

[Cheezwiz]

7 hours ago, mamadrama said:

Season 2 had better be about how Bonnie gets her shit together and finally leaves Mark

Seriously! I'm stunned she's stuck with him this long after what was revealed in the previous episode. RUN Bonnie, RUN!!! 

[mamadrama]

37 minutes ago, Cheezwiz said:

Seriously! I'm stunned she's stuck with him this long after what was revealed in the previous episode. RUN Bonnie, RUN!!! 

It MUST be because of the shared trauma. I would've left the minute I quit NXIVM and he ran to his boyfriend and blabbed about me. Or when he continued to stay on after I left. Or when he sat back and listened to people, his FRIENDS, sling mud at me. Or when I saw him enthusiastically contributing to the misogynistic bullshit in SOP. Or when I tried talking to him about my feelings and he said he needed more "data." Actually, I'd have left him for using the word "data" in that context alone.

[Fleegull]

10 hours ago, tljgator said:

Thanks for this link, Armchair Critic...now THIS is some interesting (and ridiculously shady) stuff. I mean, when the lowest of low -- Roger Stone -- shows up to tell us how horrible he thinks Keith is, that tells me most of what I need to know. *shudder*  The Vow doesn't even come close to this stuff.

Roger Stone and Frank Parlato are friends. Frank is also a sexist creep.

[mamadrama]

Welp, India's series is one episode in and already more interesting. Keith looks even more heinous in it (he actually said a baby could be "rapeable" and, no, context doesn't make it any better). Now I'm off to see if we have a board for it.

Edited October 18, 2020 by mamadrama
Added pic

[Maysie]

On 10/16/2020 at 3:37 PM, mamadrama said:

I think I misunderstood the narrative of this series. I thought it was a 9 part series about NXIVM (more specifically, DOS). But it's really about a handful of ex members' experience in the cult. And that's fine, but I think I'm disappointed because I was expecting some indepth information about the formation of the cult, how the "tech" worked and was created, the money laundering, underage sex, etc. Instead, it's more or less the personal experiences of a small number of ex members. Kinda like if you'd sat down to watch FYRE FRAUD thinking it was going to be an overview of the failed festival, only to learn that the documentary was really about Influencers A, B,& C's experiences with the festival. 

I'm with you - I did not expect so much focus on a few people. After reading the link posted by MicheleinPhilly, I have a better understanding of why Mark, Bonnie and Sarah figured so prominently in the series. Those relationships/friendships are a natural starting point for the filmmakers. However, again, I end up with more questions, specifically about timing. When did Bonnie leave? If I remember correctly, the Variety article mentions the filmmakers taking NXIVM classes as late as 2017, when Mark was still active in the group. Did the filmmakers "witness" all this falling apart? Were they still taking classes in NXIVM while Bonnie left? When Sarah and Mark left? Did Mark encourage the filmmakers to finish their classes even after he was gone? (and if so, why???) I think that should have been disclosed to the viewers because I'm left feeling like I'm viewing a bit of propaganda. I can't put my finger on why, but I feel a little manipulated.

Since the filmmakers had personal relationships with the featured people, I believe everyone would have been better served to focus on these people and how they are moving on in life and "in recovery" from having belonged to a cult. Instead we've had this hodge podge of information thrown at us with no cohesive narrative and new people introduced at odd times (Jane, Barbara, Susan) to show us what a bastard Keith could be and how NXIVM almost ruined them. If we relied on this series alone, we'd have no real idea of what the actual crimes are or why Keith is in jail. We still know nothing about the financial crimes, what specifically occurred to be considered sex trafficking and forget about the underage girls - there is not a peep about that. The filmmakers want us to know it's about much more than a sex cult, but they haven't really done anything to dispel that notion.

I will monitor the message boards to see if the second season does a better job, but I can't blindingly give over any more time to these filmmakers. They aren't particularly good storytellers, even with a compelling story. I need to know I'm not going to be strung along on some serpentine mission to make some people feel better about themselves for unwittingly joining a cult.

Based on what I've seen in the series, NXIVM has a penchant for attracting people who aren't bad at what they do, but as has been noted throughout the topic thread, they aren't superstars either (unlike Scientology, for example). I'm not saying they're talentless (I mean, their sales game seems pretty strong because they are able to recruit people and make plenty of money), but from what I've seen, these aren't people at the top of their field. So I'm not really surprised that the filmmakers are also NXIVM class attendees.

[sistermagpie]

32 minutes ago, Maysie said:

Based on what I've seen in the series, NXIVM has a penchant for attracting people who aren't bad at what they do, but as has been noted throughout the topic thread, they aren't superstars either (unlike Scientology, for example). I'm not saying they're talentless (I mean, their sales game seems pretty strong because they are able to recruit people and make plenty of money), but from what I've seen, these aren't people at the top of their field. So I'm not really surprised that the filmmakers are also NXIVM class attendees.

Seems like Scientology has plenty of mediocre people in it as well. They just lucked out with a few and were always pressuring them to bring in more people they knew.

[sadie]

7 hours ago, mamadrama said:

Welp, India's series is one episode in and already more interesting. Keith looks even more heinous in it (he actually said a baby could be "rapeable" and, no, context doesn't make it any better). Now I'm off to see if we have a board for it.

 

Agreed, Ep 1 of Seduced is already better than 8 episodes of The Vow because they’ve already shown me more of how they sucked people in and already shown Keith to be the evil creeper he is. I also really like the experts weighing in, gives us context.

Ill finish The Vow tonight but only because I want to see if they can at least stick the landing (I’m guessing not). What a wasted opportunity this one was. 

[Door County Cherry]

Drats.  I thought I had STARZ and it replaced Cinemax but it doesn't look like I do.  

[mamadrama]

49 minutes ago, Door County Cherry said:

Drats.  I thought I had STARZ and it replaced Cinemax but it doesn't look like I do.  

I had it added to Hulu for $1.99 a month. Amazon Prime had the same deal going. It's good for 3 months. If you search around you might be able to find it.