The Vow

[kathe5133]

Although this documentary still holds my interest, I realize that I don't like any of these people.  I would never be friends with Sarah, Mark, or Bonnie.  All that "I'm ok, you're ok, touchy-feely new age crap" bores the shit out of me!  I'm sure I would convey that within seconds if I were to meet any of them.  And that being said, I'm sure they would never want to be friends with me either!

 

[blixie]

They said a cauterizing “pen” was used, which yes makes it sound like they freehand drew each brand rather than make one used over and over. Guess it isn’t the kind if thing you contract out/explain to your fellow New Romans.

[mamadrama]

19 hours ago, fountain said:

. With how much time people spent on this Nxivm stuff they probably weren’t seeing their kids a lot and a daycare with “educational” programs designed by Keith could have been a fee grab and a way to groom kids.

 

They did have a daycare, they talked about it in the first episode. It was Something Something Garden. They supposedly taught several languages there. If you do a search on Kristin Keefe there's information out there on how she felt about what was going on with the kids. Also, some former members who were kids in the cult have done some AMAs. If the cult hadn't imploded then I have no doubt the kids would've been a big part of Phase 2. 

3 hours ago, kathe5133 said:

Although this documentary still holds my interest, I realize that I don't like any of these people.  I would never be friends with Sarah, Mark, or Bonnie.  All that "I'm ok, you're ok, touchy-feely new age crap" bores the shit out of me!  I'm sure I would convey that within seconds if I were to meet any of them.  And that being said, I'm sure they would never want to be friends with me either!

 

Since I am lazy, broke, and have no interest in improving myself I feel pretty confident that I'd not get sucked into this one. 

[mamadrama]

Am I the only one who thinks it's funny that this cult's big celebrities are: a Canadian actress who did some beer commercials in the 90s and was the voice of "Rocksie" in Dinotrux Supercharged; the daughter of a woman who was on a nighttime soap 35 years ago and is related to the princess of a country that no longer exists; a C-list actress who played the friend to a main character whose show went off the air in 2011; the director of a pseudoscience documentary that was hugely popular...in 2004; and a woman who played in a show on the Syfy channel from 2004-2008? 

Seriously, though, as wealthy as the Seagram sisters are I'm surprised they didn't have more than they did. 

[Cheezwiz]

3 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

Am I the only one who thinks it's funny that this cult's big celebrities are: a Canadian actress who did some beer commercials in the 90s and was the voice of "Rocksie" in Dinotrux Supercharged; the daughter of a woman who was on a nighttime soap 35 years ago and is related to the princess of a country that no longer exists; a C-list actress who played the friend to a main character whose show went off the air in 2011; the director of a pseudoscience documentary that was hugely popular...in 2004; and a woman who played in a show on the Syfy channel from 2004-2008? 

It's basically the bargain-basement off-brand version of Scientology! Although I doubt the course fees were any more of a bargain.

I can't help thinking about the phenomenal white whale the Seagram sisters must have been when they got lured in. Can you imagine how much Raniere & Salzman's eyes must've been lighting up when they realized they'd hooked those two?

[mamadrama]

14 minutes ago, Cheezwiz said:

It's basically the bargain-basement off-brand version of Scientology! Although I doubt the course fees were any more of a bargain.

I can't help thinking about the phenomenal white whale the Seagram sisters must have been when they got lured in. Can you imagine how much Raniere & Salzman's eyes must've been lighting up when they realized they'd hooked those two?

Like a bottomless money pit! 

I REALLY wish they'd delve more into Keith's patent crap. They've mentioned his "inventions" a few times, and used it as a way to back up his so-called genius, but what they've NOT said is that the default process ALWAYS says "patent pending" and you can keep that crap going forever. 

[Bitsy]

I'm not that keen on any of these people, and that includes Bonnie.  She got involved in this because she liked Mark's asinine movie.  She currently makes her living reading tarot.  I could do without she and Mark's self-congratulatory assertions that they were targeted by the cult because they are successful, beautiful and superior "critical thinkers".   They aren't.  All of them are dumbass suckers with very little personality who threw themselves into the cult because it gave them something to form their identities around.  Bonnie only has a modicum more personality and common sense than the others. 

I'm pretty sure that the guy in the Dalai Lama video who was labeled an "advisor" is Robert Thurman (Uma Thurman's father) who is a long-time mover and shaker among New York celebrities.   He's big into fundraising for various Tibetan organizations.  I think the presence and backing of the Bronfman $ister$ had everything to do with Raniere getting that meeting, and with his lame answers being accepted with no proof whatsoever.  An article linked upthread said there was a rumor that the Dalai Lama was ultimately paid $1 million for his appearance with Raniere.  The Dalai Lama denied receiving an honorarium, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Bronfmans made a hefty donation to one of his charities.

[mamadrama]

53 minutes ago, Bitsy said:

I'm not that keen on any of these people, and that includes Bonnie.  She got involved in this because she liked Mark's asinine movie.  She currently makes her living reading tarot.  I could do without she and Mark's self-congratulatory assertions that they were targeted by the cult because they are successful, beautiful and superior "critical thinkers".   They aren't.  All of them are dumbass suckers with very little personality who threw themselves into the cult because it gave them something to form their identities around.  Bonnie only has a modicum more personality and common sense than the others. 

I'm pretty sure that the guy in the Dalai Lama video who was labeled an "advisor" is Robert Thurman (Uma Thurman's father) who is a long-time mover and shaker among New York celebrities.   He's big into fundraising for various Tibetan organizations.  I think the presence and backing of the Bronfman $ister$ had everything to do with Raniere getting that meeting, and with his lame answers being accepted with no proof whatsoever.  An article linked upthread said there was a rumor that the Dalai Lama was ultimately paid $1 million for his appearance with Raniere.  The Dalai Lama denied receiving an honorarium, but I wouldn't be surprised if the Bronfmans made a hefty donation to one of his charities.

Also the rumor that Clair B. was sleeping with him. So there's that.

I don't think any of these people have been completely deprogrammed. Maybe Nippy. Not only do they believe that they were pulled in because of their beauty, success, and minds but Sarah and Mark (and probably Allison) also believe that they were targeted because they were big-time Hollywood people. I'm sure these are ALL things that they were repeatedly told over the years. 

Nothing wrong with Mark's movie-I liked it at the time. It was fun and entertaining. I think the difference is that most of us enjoyed it BECAUSE it was fun and entertaining; Mark, Sarah, Bonnie, Keith, and Company liked it because they actually bought into the pseudoscience it was hawking. And that would be fine, too, except in this case it left a bunch of these people ripe and open to a cult disguised as a self-help workshop. 

It's funny that despite them all sitting around slapping themselves on the backs and reassuring each other about what great "ethical" humanitarians they were, they didn't actually seem to DO anything.

Much like Keith with the Dalai Lama, my former attorney thought HE had all the answers to world peace. However, when he showed up at the vice president's hotel, waving letter in hand, claiming that he had the skills to change the world, he was arrested for terroristic threatening. (Later released because he was drunk.)

[luckyroll3]

2 hours ago, mamadrama said:

I REALLY wish they'd delve more into Keith's patent crap. They've mentioned his "inventions" a few times, and used it as a way to back up his so-called genius, but what they've NOT said is that the default process ALWAYS says "patent pending" and you can keep that crap going forever. 

Found a list of his patents here, not that I understand what any of them are for: https://patents.google.com/?inventor=Keith+A.+Raniere

And also this Vanity Fair article, How NXIVM Used the Strange Power of Patents to Build Its “Sex Cult”. 

[mamadrama]

8 hours ago, luckyroll3 said:

Found a list of his patents here, not that I understand what any of them are for: https://patents.google.com/?inventor=Keith+A.+Raniere

And also this Vanity Fair article, How NXIVM Used the Strange Power of Patents to Build Its “Sex Cult”. 

One of his "inventions" was for finding lost cellphones. So what system did the 3rd most intelligent man in the world come up with, pray tell? It literally consisted of a GPS system of sorts inside the phone (basically "Find My Phone") and having the ability to remotely turn it off/on. 

Another one for coming up with a system to determine whether a "Luciferian" can be rehabilitated. So what's a Luciferian? A person who has "enmity toward others but has learned that, for him, pleasure can be had from achieving his selfish desires such as destroy ing material objects or relationships, and causing others pain, distress, or unhappiness. A Luciferian realizes his desires by any means—without consideration for others and without remorse. A Luciferian is a person lacking in conscience and loyalty to others. He commonly employs manipulation and deceit to achieve his desired end and is therefore capable of acts that could be highly destructive to those that interact with him. A Luciferian, therefore, typically experiences pleasure or gratification in situations where “normal” people would be repulsed or disturbed."

So basically Keith. 

Edited September 24, 2020 by mamadrama

[MicheleinPhilly]

I feel like this episode brought the momentum of the series to a screeching halt. And like others I wish they would make the timeline more clear as they seem to be jumping backwards and forwards quite a lot with no indication when a given event is taking place. 

And because most (all?) of the people featured most prominently are wanna be Hollywood types, I'm having a hard time reading their emotions as genuine. Mark comes across as a bit robotic but I still get the sense that he is performing. Bonnie and Nippy are the only 2 that strike me as somewhat "normal" people who just can't believe they got sucked into this shit - both the cult and the documentary. 

The Dalai Lama visit was beyond cringeworthy. I felt like the Bronfmans must have received a good talking to from His Holiness's aides after the fact for subjecting him to that. 

[TVbitch]

Of course Keith can't just be a run-of-the-mill psycopath, he has to be a "Luciferian." 

[mamadrama]

I feel like they're going over the same things again and again. There are lots of interesting things that they're not touching. For instance, the main reason Bonnie got fed up is because Keith opened up SOP (the male group) to women, but it wound up being emotionally abusive and misogynistic. The idea was to literally "break" women down. They would actually make the women wear udders as "penance", among other things.  And some DOS initiations actually included sexual assault (tying a naked woman down and performing oral sex on her). And Keith convincing women that his sperm gave them special powers. And the underage girls...Why aren't we hearing about these things? Mark and Sarah have fairly uninteresting stories in comparison, yet they're really stretching them out.

[ninjago]

These people are so extra.  Why is there footage of them putting on some sort of singing and dancing stage show?  It's so corny.  

I think this cult appealed to people who are arrogant, who think they are extra-special and have so much to offer, if only they could put even more focus and resources into themselves to remove blah blah blah roadblocks.  It's so self-centered, like all wellness BS.  Just total self-absorption and preciousness.

[Maysie]

19 hours ago, Bitsy said:

I'm not that keen on any of these people, and that includes Bonnie.  She got involved in this because she liked Mark's asinine movie.  She currently makes her living reading tarot.  I could do without she and Mark's self-congratulatory assertions that they were targeted by the cult because they are successful, beautiful and superior "critical thinkers".   They aren't.  All of them are dumbass suckers with very little personality who threw themselves into the cult because it gave them something to form their identities around.  Bonnie only has a modicum more personality and common sense than the others. 

The episode that had Bonnie telling Catherine "of course they went for India because she's so awesome!" was illuminating for me because it laid bare the way these people see themselves vs. what I'm seeing on the screen. I see people who are insecure, and subsequently, looking for validation, whether it's personally or professionally. As well, there seems to be something about them that will bring some sort of financial element to the table that makes it worthwhile for Keith and the Salzmans to elevate them to something "special" (Mark's prior film making success; Sarah's ability to sell; India and the Bronfman's familial success/ties).

18 hours ago, mamadrama said:

I don't think any of these people have been completely deprogrammed. Maybe Nippy. Not only do they believe that they were pulled in because of their beauty, success, and minds but Sarah and Mark (and probably Allison) also believe that they were targeted because they were big-time Hollywood people. I'm sure these are ALL things that they were repeatedly told over the years. 

I think there's at least a little of that going on. I also think there's some self-talk that they kind of have to believe that they were brought in because they have those desirable qualities, instead of lacking them. Maybe I'm projecting, but it seems like it's a little less bad they were so sucked in if they were brought in and duped because they were so successful, instead of brought in and duped because they were easy marks.

 

1 hour ago, mamadrama said:

There are lots of interesting things that they're not touching. For instance, the main reason Bonnie got fed up is because Keith opened up SOP (the male group) to women, but it wound up being emotionally abusive and misogynistic. The idea was to literally "break" women down. They would actually make the women wear udders as "penance", among other things.  And some DOS initiations actually included sexual assault (tying a naked woman down and performing oral sex on her). And Keith convincing women that his sperm gave them special powers. And the underage girls...Why aren't we hearing about these things?

That's becoming my issue with the series. I understand that some people wouldn't want to be public about what happened to them, but  some women, aside from Sarah, came forward so there was a trial and conviction, so I wonder if we'll ever hear from them. If I remember correctly, based on the stuff Sarah had for the police, there wasn't anything to investigate because she was a consenting adult for engaging in a master/slave relationship and getting branded. From what's been presented so far, we know that Keith is bad simply because we, the viewers, are able to listen to him and know that he's full of shit and at the very least a manipulative prick. So far, everything we've seen is legal - it may be unethical or fucked up, but there's nothing illegal in what he's done from what's been shown to date. So how do we get from here to there? And when are we going to see that? They haven't even mentioned anything of the above and I think it's past time to do so. Instead, we get Mark on the phone. Sarah on the phone. Catherine at her computer. Catherine in her car. Bonnie staring at the ocean. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

[mamadrama]

1 hour ago, ninjago said:

These people are so extra.  Why is there footage of them putting on some sort of singing and dancing stage show?  It's so corny.  

I think this cult appealed to people who are arrogant, who think they are extra-special and have so much to offer, if only they could put even more focus and resources into themselves to remove blah blah blah roadblocks.  It's so self-centered, like all wellness BS.  Just total self-absorption and preciousness.

Not only did they do stage shows, but NXIVM hosted an a capella festival in the hopes of bringing in college kids (read: young women). Turns out the college kids were too savvy. There's an a capella forum that has a bunch of posts from people who were there. It's entertaining.

[mamadrama]

40 minutes ago, Maysie said:

. So far, everything we've seen is legal - it may be unethical or fucked up, but there's nothing illegal in what he's done from what's been shown to date. So how do we get from here to there? And when are we going to see that? They haven't even mentioned anything of the above and I think it's past time to do so. Instead, we get Mark on the phone. Sarah on the phone. Catherine at her computer. Catherine in her car. Bonnie staring at the ocean. Blah blah blah blah blah blah blah.

Right. And this is why Nancy Salzman, Lauren, and Allison were able to wriggle out of some of the legal stuff-without THOSE women there wasn't much of a case. When you look at the unethical stuff (mind control, emotional abuse, blackmail, etc) and what people were actually arrested for (racketeering, sex trafficking of underage girls, sex trafficking conspiracy, money laundering, & wire fraud) it says a lot about the series. They're showing us the "interesting" stuff, not necessarily the illegal stuff. 

With the Rational Inquiry, EMs, and Disintegrations there was quite a bit of low-key hypnotism and brain washing involved. MAYBE even some drugs (in the 20/20 episode "Jane" describes a sexual encounter with Keith that sounds a lot like she was getting more than His Greatness' Magic Wand slipped to her). I wish they'd also talk more about these things. It would make them seem a tiny but more sympathetic. 

[ninjago]

17 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

Not only did they do stage shows, but NXIVM hosted an a capella festival in the hopes of bringing in college kids (read: young women). Turns out the college kids were too savvy. There's an a capella forum that has a bunch of posts from people who were there. It's entertaining.

Oh my gosh I found the forum and crazy Lauren Salzman was on there posting long-winded garbage about how unjust it is to call it a cult and how she enjoys producing musical theater (cut to clip of Mark on stage doing jazz hands).

Also, someone says the college groups who complained about having "random", "unqualified" Alison Mack on the judging panel were being "xenophobic".  Haha, wait, though, I thought other people's opinions of you were really your responsibility!  You're at cause!

[mamadrama]

17 minutes ago, ninjago said:

Oh my gosh I found the forum and crazy Lauren Salzman was on there posting long-winded garbage about how unjust it is to call it a cult and how she enjoys producing musical theater (cut to clip of Mark on stage doing jazz hands).

Also, someone says the college groups who complained about having "random", "unqualified" Alison Mack on the judging panel were being "xenophobic".  Haha, wait, though, I thought other people's opinions of you were really your responsibility!  You're at cause!

See, THIS is the stuff I want to see on the show! 

[MicheleinPhilly]

1 hour ago, mamadrama said:

Not only did they do stage shows, but NXIVM hosted an a capella festival in the hopes of bringing in college kids (read: young women). Turns out the college kids were too savvy. There's an a capella forum that has a bunch of posts from people who were there. It's entertaining.

Thanks for sending me down THAT rabbit hole. I find it helps ease the stress of a long work day to have some good belly laughs. 

[mamadrama]

40 minutes ago, MicheleinPhilly said:

Thanks for sending me down THAT rabbit hole. I find it helps ease the stress of a long work day to have some good belly laughs. 

Yeah, there's some good stuff out there. The Frank Parlatto rabbit hole is a crazy one, too. 

[pigs-in-space]

There is a twitter thread that talks about how someone was invited to a NXIVM event and the hummus was so good that they still thinking about it. I'm reading the thread you referenced regarding the acapella workshop (here for those of you who don't want to google...and you can use the wayback machine to see the deleted/removed posts) and sure enough...they served hummus wraps for lunch!

What is it with these people and hummus? 

ETA: So many NXIVM people commented on that post. My favorite has to be from Clare Bronfman:

Quote

In case some of you did not know, I was ranked 12th in the US and 80th in the world for equestrian show jumping. I came to Keith for help in riding. Keith does not ride nor does he know anything about riding proper. His method of analysis rapidly uncovered things that the best riding coaches of the world could not see. My results were unprecedented.

Keith has done similar things for world class soccer players, musicians, business people, actors, dancers, scientists, weight-lifters and singers. Just because he is approachable and non-assuming do not assume he is not extraordinary.

Is NXIVM a cult? Is Keith a “cult” leader? I think not. Of course some people who have already “dug-in” their heals will not want to really consider this information. Nxivm is an ethics and critical thinking education program of international distinction and repute. It is not a “cult” by any definition. The prominent people of the world know this. 

Unprecedented, huh? Why didn't she get first then?

Edited September 25, 2020 by pigs-in-space

[Cheezwiz]

2 hours ago, pigs-in-space said:

here is a twitter thread that talks about how someone was invited to a NXIVM event and the hummus was so good that they still thinking about it. I'm reading the thread you referenced regarding the acapella workshop (here for those of you who don't want to google...and you can use the wayback machine to see the deleted/removed posts) and sure enough...they served hummus wraps for lunch!

OMG @pigs-in-space, thank you for uncovering this ancient thread! I am crying laughing at this particular rabbit-hole! Independent of NXIVM, who knew the dorky world of a capella was filled with so much drama! (I want to know who the Crosbys were and why they trashed their hotel room!).

There were clearly people who attended this festival way back when who immediately spotted this group for the insidious cult that they were. Others ... were a bit blind.  For those who don't want to read - Keith Raniere apparently thought sponsoring an a capalla  fest would be the hip way to lure younger members. It sounds like what NXIVM put on was the Fyre festival of a capella competitions. 

I'm positively howling reading this stuff! Posts vary from "Hey man, quit complaining, you weren't forced to eat the free vegan food!" to "who cares if it's wacko cult! The performers were great!" to impassioned defence posts by Clare Bronfman. Knowing what we know now, it's very funny. In a sad way.

[ninjago]

2 minutes ago, Cheezwiz said:

(I want to know who the Crosbys were and why they trashed their hotel room!).

The best part of that thread could possibly be that the acapella group the Crosbys are from Binghamton College...as in, the Bing Crosbys.

When Allison Mack met Keith she gave off a very strong DTF vibe.  She's the one who dropped the sexual references, not him.  I wonder if he was having sex with other members before her or if she was the beginning of him seeing that it was possible.

 

[pigs-in-space]

3 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

OMG @pigs-in-space, thank you for uncovering this ancient thread! I am crying laughing at this particular rabbit-hole! Independent of NXIVM, who knew the dorky world of a capella was filled with so much drama! (I want to know who the Crosbys were and why they trashed their hotel room!).

There were clearly people who attended this festival way back when who immediately spotted this group for the insidious cult that they were. Others ... were a bit blind.  For those who don't want to read - Keith Raniere apparently thought sponsoring an a capalla  fest would be the hip way to lure younger members. It sounds like what NXIVM put on was the Fyre festival of a capella competitions. 

I'm positively howling reading this stuff! Posts vary from "Hey man, quit complaining, you weren't forced to eat the free vegan food!" to "who cares if it's wacko cult! The performers were great!" to impassioned defence posts by Clare Bronfman. Knowing what we know now, it's very funny. In a sad way.

If you were howling reading it, just wait until you are graced with Simply Human’s performances.

[Cheezwiz]

20 minutes ago, pigs-in-space said:

If you were howling reading it, just wait until you are graced with Simply Human’s performances.

Wow. Just wow. 

Even when the vocalists are gifted, I consider a cappella performers truly annoying & terrible - they're like the musical equivalent of mimes or interpretive dancers. These people are most assuredly NOT gifted. Their rendition of "Roxanne" is what sent me off the deep end.

All of this unearthed material is a hell of a lot more entertaining than the previous episode.

Still trying to wrap my head around how Keith & Co. thought this would be an avenue to lots of new kool-aid imbibers and big $$$. Yeah, he's a genius alright! 

Also still wanna know what those Crosbys were up to in their hotel room.

[Armchair Critic]

The NXIVM/A Capella thing reminds me of a Christopher Guest film like ‘Waiting for Guffman’.

Edited September 25, 2020 by Armchair Critic

[Maysie]

11 hours ago, pigs-in-space said:

If you were howling reading it, just wait until you are graced with Simply Human’s performances.

Boy, that rendition of Roxanne was . . . interesting. The vocalist was awful. Some songs don't lend themselves to a cappella and now I know that Roxanne is one of them.

10 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

Also still wanna know what those Crosbys were up to in their hotel room.

I find it hilarious that a group known as the Bing Crosbys trashed a hotel room.

[bilgistic]

What's with the bad, growly Italian accent while "singing"? "Yoo don' havta sell yuh bodeh to dah niite!"

[Proclone]

1 hour ago, bilgistic said:

What's with the bad, growly Italian accent while "singing"? "Yoo don' havta sell yuh bodeh to dah niite!"

I don't think they're covering The Police's version of Roxanne so much as the version that was in Moulin Rouge, which was sung by the Argentinian in the movie. So, I think that's what they were going for...and failing miserably.  At least the guy sounded reasonably on key, the woman singing obviously couldn't hit some of the notes.

Edited to Add

Their version of a Crazy Little Thing Called Love, may be the most obnoxious thing I've heard...and that is a song that does kind of lend itself to A Capella.

Edited September 25, 2020 by Proclone

[mamadrama]

Toni Natalie interviewed with 20/20 in 2003, 2005, and 2015. None of those stories ever ran.

I thought you all would get a kick out of the a Capella forum...

How about watching Allison Mack as she declares her love for Keith, in song, and breaks into tears? 

 

I've seen most of the specials, documentaries, etc. One of the most interesting was this 1.5 hour talk by the reporter who first broke the story (NOT Frank Report or NYT). He also wrote a book. 

 

 

Edited September 26, 2020 by mamadrama

[PotterOtherP]

At this point I have to agree with the general consensus that the series is way too much about Sarah and Mark et al, when there's so many other people out there with so much to add who haven't been included. Even if you sympathize with Sarah and Mark, their stories just aren't that interesting. They were good at introducing us to the world of the cult, but now it's time to step away from their point of view. That's why it was so refreshing to hear the NYT reporter's ideas about self-help. The filmmakers are making us listen to hours of Keith's bullshit without providing any expert perspective on what he's really doing. This documentary is not really illuminating the audience about what this all is, how it came to be, or what it means.

Catherine, who I had never heard of, reminds me of the rich king in Conan the Barbarian who hires Arnold's team to rescue his daughter from Thulsa Doom. Never mind everyone else, the beautiful princess is the one who matters.

Edited September 26, 2020 by PotterOtherP

[DanaK]

15 hours ago, mamadrama said:

I've seen most of the specials, documentaries, etc. One of the most interesting was this 1.5 hour talk by the reporter who first broke the story (NOT Frank Report or NYT). He also wrote a book. 

That was fascinating. As several questioners and the reporter commented, it's amazing yet not that these kinds of stories can take so long to break into the national mainstream. It also sounds like local Albany politicians and police were possibly on the take to look the other way early on if I understood the reporter correctly, thus making it hard to get local authorities to take action. But I suppose similar things happened with Weinstein and Epstein where people were bought off to look the other way and silence stories for a long while

[mamadrama]

7 hours ago, DanaK said:

That was fascinating. As several questioners and the reporter commented, it's amazing yet not that these kinds of stories can take so long to break into the national mainstream. It also sounds like local Albany politicians and police were possibly on the take to look the other way early on if I understood the reporter correctly, thus making it hard to get local authorities to take action. But I suppose similar things happened with Weinstein and Epstein where people were bought off to look the other way and silence stories for a long while

Yeah, I think that Bronfman money was spent on more than just private jets and lawsuits...

They didn't even TOUCH the popular speculation that Keith was behind Pam's death (not to mention other deaths and disappearances). 

[Armchair Critic]

Was Nancy Salzman also sleeping with Keith? Which would make her daughter Lauren doing it even more creepy.

Sarah isn’t coming off as the most attentive mother.

Still watching the latest episode but Barbara seems like she would have been okay with everything if she had Keith to herself.

Edited September 28, 2020 by Armchair Critic

[DanaK]

Poor Barbara Bouchey and the other lady sued into oblivion. Damn

I too wonder if Nancy was also in a relationship with Keith. She was on that initial board where they were all sleeping with Keith, but I think they would have explicitly said so if she was

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I have tried to stay open minded about people who were in ESP/NXIVM, but Sarah really rubbed me the wrong way in this episode. I think she really believed that when the article came out, she would become famous and everyone would praise her for her bravery. When she saw the negative comments, she immediately called Barbara and said that people didn't get it and then blame the NYT reporter for not including the nuances.

On a separate note, it has bothered me that she keeps referring to this brand being on her vagina, which is anatomically incorrect. It's really annoying when people refer to the entire bathing suit region as the vagina. Just because it's covered by your underwear doesn't make it your vagina.

I totally cracked up when Barbara said that when she met Keith, she didn't find him attractive. So it wasn't just us!

Edited September 28, 2020 by ElectricBoogaloo

[Cheezwiz]

2 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

Was Nancy Salzman also sleeping with Keith? Which would make her daughter Lauren doing it even more creepy.

Sarah isn’t coming off as the most attentive mother.

Still watching the latest episode but Barbara seems like she would have been okay with everything if she had Keith to herself.

I have been wondering that about Salzman the whole time. Extra icky knowing her daughter was also being strung along by Raniere, and hoping to have a kid with him.

Poor Boucher - even after having left all those years ago, she's still miserably hung up on Keith. Pitiful.

Apart from Barbara's story which was new material, another very tedious episode of phone call footage. Still not liking Sarah very much - she was clearly getting high off of all the attention from the breaking news revelations, and not in a "maybe now justice will finally be served" way.

I'm wondering how she and Nippy can afford the very luxe looking (but rather ugly) condo they're living in. Neither rent nor mortgage is cheap in Vancouver.

[mamadrama]

This is interesting but it's irritating knowing that it could've been even MORE interesting. They lost their story.

[Door County Cherry]

I think this episode had the first person I probably unabashedly liked.  That was Susan--the woman who had gotten pulled in but wasn't really close to Keith, realized something was off about this and decided to leave.  Her "mistake" was in not leaving quietly but it sounds like she had put in a lot of time (or money?) into this and wanted it back.  She realized she was in a cult.

I don't think Barbara truly knew she was in a cult until much much later.  

1 hour ago, Cheezwiz said:

Poor Boucher - even after having left all those years ago, she's still miserably hung up on Keith. Pitiful.

Yep.  I completely get why they were dismissed when they brought their complaints to local authorities.  She still seemed to value what the organization did for her and the "good" things it brought.  I can't really speak to those "good" things but I'll take her at her word that she it healed her in some ways.  

But really, the narrative essentially boils down to my boyfriend is a dog and did me wrong.  

Did anyone else find their volleyball flirtation "you want to take my balls and go home" eerily similar in its ickiness and adolescent nature to Alison's "pop my cherry" moment with him.  Jeepers, you two are GROWN WOMEN!  Pull yourselves together. 

I mean, I do get how it must be so hard to resist Keith's metaphors like "you know how you hit a volleyball---that's pain but a good pain" or whatever volleyball wisdom he was spouting.  

But seriously, pull yourselves together!

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I think she really believed that when the article came out, she would become famous and everyone would praise her for her bravery. When she saw the negative comments, she immediately called Barbara and said that people didn't get it and then blame the NYT reporter for not including the nuances.

Two things about this.  One, I do think that whatever drew Sara to the cult was drawing her to the drama of the exposure--both the good and the bad.  She knows it's good to get this out there.  I think she enjoyed both the good comments and the bad comments about her.  The one cult expert she saw being interviewed who said that there's both a fragility and narcissism that draws people to these cults felt so real---or at least so real about the people we're seeing in this one.  I definitely thought "nailed it!" after he said that.

But I do understand her frustration about what was left out.  We talk about grooming when we talk about pedophiles.  A lot of people aren't as aware that adults can be groomed as well.  In some ways, adults play a more active role since they're not as naive but I don't think it's something a lot of people understand when it comes to domestic violence or being part of a cult.  

I don't really know if this documentary has done a great job of explaining it either but they've touched on it. It's a hard thing for people to understand.  Even with children, it probably wasn't until Finding Neverland where I felt like I really understood what it was like to be groomed as opposed to just knowing the steps. 

1 hour ago, mamadrama said:

This is interesting but it's irritating knowing that it could've been even MORE interesting. They lost their story.

They have me.  I'm finding this whole thing fascinating.  I don't know why but I'm drawn into each episode.  But I will say that when they showed about how the old guard was being replaced by newer/younger women and they showed that montage of younger woman, that would have been a perfect time to talk about how they recruited more younger woman with song.  A missed opportunity. 

[Cheezwiz]

2 minutes ago, Door County Cherry said:

The one cult expert she saw being interviewed who said that there's both a fragility and narcissism that draws people to these cults felt so real---or at least so real about the people we're seeing in this one.  I definitely thought "nailed it!" after he said that.

Yep! That was my thought when watching this episode. That quote seems to apply to most of the subjects of this documentary. It was one bit of insight in what was otherwise to me, another miss of an episode. There are only three left, and I feel like the last three have been mostly filler.

[mamadrama]

2 minutes ago, Door County Cherry said:

. 

They have me.  I'm finding this whole thing fascinating.  I don't know why but I'm drawn into each episode.  But I will say that when they showed about how the old guard was being replaced by newer/younger women and they showed that montage of younger woman, that would have been a perfect time to talk about how they recruited more younger woman with song.  A missed opportunity. 

Did you come into this knowing a lot about it? Because that's my issue. I've been obsessed with this since 2017 and if there's a podcast, expose, YouTube video, book, or article about it then I've listened/watched/read it. I think it might be a better viewing experience if you weren't constantly thinking about the things they're leaving out.

[Door County Cherry]

13 minutes ago, mamadrama said:

Did you come into this knowing a lot about it? Because that's my issue. I've been obsessed with this since 2017 and if there's a podcast, expose, YouTube video, book, or article about it then I've listened/watched/read it. I think it might be a better viewing experience if you weren't constantly thinking about the things they're leaving out.

Nope. Only the bare bones.  Something something sex cult.  Actress I didn't really know bc I didn't watch her big show but did know her show was popular.   A few other actresses who clearly had attended events but who have distanced themselves from it.

That's it.

But hey, maybe season 2?

[Proclone]

Can I just say, while Keith is beyond scum, I find Nancy Salzman particularly odious.  There doesn't seem to be much information out there about her, even independent from this documentary I can't find much about her.  But, I can't really believe that she as the co-founder of ESP didn't know that it was largely just another pyramid scheme when it was created.  I doubt she envisioned it as a sex cult, and maybe she even thought some of the techniques were helpful.  But, we know that she was a psychiatric nurse and was apparently working as a therapist or some sort of counselor.  I find it very hard to believe that she didn't see Keith for exactly what he was, a conman spouting largely useless self help BS.  We also know she fed her daughter to this man.  And on top of that, we now know from Boucher, she was sending people she had counselor to ESP.  That's another level of ethical violations (the irony).  She manipulated a former client, who counted her as a friend, into joining this cult.  Perhaps it's because I'm a medical professional, but the idea of that misuse of your profession, just really pisses me off.

[Guest]

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Sarah really rubbed me the wrong way in this episode. I think she really believed that when the article came out, she would become famous and everyone would praise her for her bravery. When she saw the negative comments, she immediately called Barbara and said that people didn't get it and then blame the NYT reporter for not including the nuances.

YUP. I almost turned off the episode at that point. It was all ME! ME! ME! "I'm going to have a New York Times party!" "It's going viral!"  (And her party apparently consisted of everyone sitting around her glamorous apartment checking Facebook and their text messages on their cell phones. Fun!)

3 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

it has bothered me that she keeps referring to this brand being on her vagina

SAME. It appeared to me that the brand was near her mons pubis area. But probably saying "vagina" is more dramatic for Sarah.  

I had to laugh at the producer asking Catherine Oxenburg who Rick Ross was. Ummm...you're on your way to film with him -- shouldn't you have done some homework, sir?

I'm thinking of peacing out after this episode. I don't like any of these awful, narcissistic, overprivileged people. And I'm sick to death of the endless cell-phone-conversation footage and confounding timeline. I've already read enough and listened to enough about this case that this series feels like pointless (and boring) filler to me. 

ETA: I DID like Susan (was that her name?) who seemed like the sanest, most down to earth person on this show. The second she realized what was going on, she got the hell out and demanded her money from Keith and Nancy.

Edited September 28, 2020 by Guest

[mamadrama]

10 minutes ago, Proclone said:

Can I just say, while Keith is beyond scum, I find Nancy Salzman particularly odious.  There doesn't seem to be much information out there about her, even independent from this documentary I can't find much about her.  But, I can't really believe that she as the co-founder of ESP didn't know that it was largely just another pyramid scheme when it was created.  I doubt she envisioned it as a sex cult, and maybe she even thought some of the techniques were helpful.  But, we know that she was a psychiatric nurse and was apparently working as a therapist or some sort of counselor.  I find it very hard to believe that she didn't see Keith for exactly what he was, a conman spouting largely useless self help BS.  We also know she fed her daughter to this man.  And on top of that, we now know from Boucher, she was sending people she had counselor to ESP.  That's another level of ethical violations (the irony).  She manipulated a former client, who counted her as a friend, into joining this cult.  Perhaps it's because I'm a medical professional, but the idea of that misuse of your profession, just really pisses me off.

Agree. Where Keith and his Philosophy 101 shit and word salad speeches he's almost laughably bad. Nancy feels way more insidious in a lot of ways. It was Nancy and her skill/interest in NLP that got Keith started down the road to the other crap he did. I know the state probably needed her to convict him, but in many ways I see her as just as culpable. Maybe not where DOS was concerned but she did her own fair share of illegal stuff. It sucks that she won't get into that much trouble. 

[DanaK]

Nancy’s birthday party was a bit much with the sexual appliances, unexpectedly so. And it does appear that she recruited former therapy clients for Nxivum. It also appears she too was in a relationship with Keith being she was on that first board of women sleeping with Keith and we had all that video of the various women, including Nancy, kissing him. But for some reason, the filmmakers don’t seem to want to say it explicitly out loud

Does the New York Times just release their big exposes without telling the people they interviewed after stringing them along for months? It really does feel though that the Weinstein case and the subsequent MeToo movement broke the logjam of getting the story out to the mainstream and having it resonate with the public

And yikes with Keith saying similar inappropriate things to Barbara (and she back at him) that he said later to Allison. Poor Barbara just wanted a normal boyfriend that loved only her (and only slept with her). And what is with all these women so willing to have sex with this scummy guy who is having sex with multiple women?

The ratings don’t seem to be catching fire, with viewers under 400k for premiere night, but I guess we’ll see what DVR ratings bring

[fountain]

It goes to show how tastes differ as I was thinking how nice Sarah’s condo is, I liked her furniture and decorative style, it was pretty modern, which is what I like.

I too am annoyed by the use of the word vagina for the groin/pubic area. It makes it sound like it more genital mutilation than it is. Initially I assumed it was on the labia area due to this. I am not saying it wasn’t/isn’t traumatic but the way they talk of it is misleading, just say pubic area or something.

I liked the Barbara part, she was obviously in it because she was/is in love with Keith or at least the idea of Keith.

[kathe5133]

On 9/25/2020 at 10:34 PM, mamadrama said:

Toni Natalie interviewed with 20/20 in 2003, 2005, and 2015. None of those stories ever ran.

I thought you all would get a kick out of the a Capella forum...

How about watching Allison Mack as she declares her love for Keith, in song, and breaks into tears? 

 

She looks emaciated and ill in this clip!  Weirdos!

 

 

 

[mamadrama]

31 minutes ago, fountain said:

It goes to show how tastes differ as I was thinking how nice Sarah’s condo is, I liked her furniture and decorative style, it was pretty modern, which is what I like.

I too am annoyed by the use of the word vagina for the groin/pubic area. It makes it sound like it more genital mutilation than it is. Initially I assumed it was on the labia area due to this. I am not saying it wasn’t/isn’t traumatic but the way they talk of it is misleading, just say pubic area or something.

I liked the Barbara part, she was obviously in it because she was/is in love with Keith or at least the idea of Keith.

It's barely even on her groin. If she can show it without taking her pants off...