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S07.E11: Brand New Day

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Sibyl and Nathaniel continue their fight to shape a dark new future for S.H.I.E.L.D., managing to stay one step ahead of the agents along the way. If the team is going to turn this one around, they'll have to get creative, and maybe even a little out of this world.

Airdate: August 5, 2020

 

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If Fitz is somehow not dead, this show is REALLY trying to make us believe that he is.

It seems to me at this point out guys have lost the war. I have no idea how this can be resolved happilly...

Edited by StarBrand
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Obviously, Sousa never read comic books as a kid, if he thinks 'Quake' is funny.

So, I do wonder how long Fitz and Simmons had before they jumped back to the temple, because "Blood work" could mean several things.

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It was nice to finally see some new Fitz footage. Jemma freaking out about forgetting and then her completely forgetting him was heartbreaking. If she’s forgotten Fitz, does she still remember Deke is her grandson? She was definitely giving off protective Nana vibes, but idk. I’m going to need Fitz alive in the finale. Give these two some peace for once. And a baby Fitzsimmons on the way.

Sousa and Mack bonding over Daisy’s superhero name is adorable. As is Mack’s “what are your intentions?” Nice enforcement of the team as family between that and Daisy’s comments. I’m not crying over her calling Jemma her sister. Nope.

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someone is going to have help me out here, our local broadcast broke in with an Amber Alert right when Daisy and Mac were having their little conversation that ended with him taking the pilot's seat.  Can anyone help a girl out?

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Oh, Sousa!  If you think Quake is a weird superhero name, wait till you hear about the guy who willingly calls himself Ant-Man!  Still, that was an enjoyable moment between him and Mack, and helps me enjoy the Daisy/Sousa pair even more, since it isn't just romantic drama and angst for them, and they can playfully poke fun at some of their sillier aspects.  Especially since the other big couple on this show can't catch a break.

Glad that we finally (finally!) got some new Fitz scenes, even if they were flashbacks.  Also happy they fit in at least one (final?) exchange between him and Enoch (oh, Enoch!  You inability to read the room never fails to amuse!)  They are certainly making it look like some bad shit goes down with Fitz, but I have to imagine it's either a twist or things will work themselves out.  Even this show can't be cruel enough to give them a sad ending, right?  And there is the whole "Simmons might not even know who Fitz is anymore" thing...

Did like that the two thugs never had a chance against Yo-Yo.  There really should be more of that, considering how powerful she should be naturally.

Chuckled over everyone questioning Coulson's abilities with computers.

While I'm definitely curious to see how this all plays out and how the team can fix everything (especially all of S.H.I.E.L.D.'s headquarters getting blown up), I'm finding both Nathanial and Kora to be underwhelming final baddies.  I kind of wish; after a few adjustments, obviously; that they worked it so that Jiaying actually aligned with Nathanial instead, because there would at least be some interesting history there.  But Kora's connection to Daisy is flimsy at best, and neither Dianne Doan or Thomas E. Sullivan/Nathanial give off big energy to be the ultimate and final threats.  It's not enough to ruin the season or hopeful ending for me, but they're pretty much the least interesting parts here.

One more week till the end!  Can't wait!

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Oh Fitzsimmons. I swear it’s like the writers are checking off a list. What trauma haven’t they experienced yet? Amnesia. What’s interesting is that it seems that Simmons has only forgotten about Fitz, she seemed to know who Deke was.

 I really thought Deke would get a cool Die Hard moment but in hindsight I’m not surprised he just ended up being the punching bag.

 I loved the Daisy/Mack/Sousa trio. I did a rewatch recently and it reminded me of how much I liked the Daisy/Mack partnership and I was glad to see them team up one more time. Of course Mack is ok with the fact that this might be the final mission. He’s always had one foot out the door. And their discussion about Daisy’s feelings for Sousa felt like a real conversation between friends when he was teasing her about kissing Sousa during the time loop.

How did no one realize they’re in a different timeline? If they were in the same timeline Daisy would have disappeared when Jiaying died.

I’m confused about Kora’s real intentions. Did she just want to get captured to give Sybil access to the base? Or does she actually want to follow through with the “kill baby Hitler” plan? Kora and Nathaniel are boring villains but I don’t mind since during this final season I care more about spending time and saying goodbye to the main characters. The character interactions are what made this episode for me and in the penultimate episode of the series I’m glad they’re taking time for that.

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Activating LMD!Coulson has to be the branch point of the alternate timeline...he needs to die in a 12 Monkeys style double time loop that resets the O.G. timeline...Enoch implemented Dr. Strange non-disclosure to prevent the team from saving Coulson at the critical moment. 

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I just want an ending. This isn't a "Just end this shit already!" thing like with, say, Smallville. I just don't feel invested in the series finale, even though I've seen the entire run. And once again, if it's revealed that Steve Rogers had to spend three decades fixing the chronological screw-ups of the past few seasons, I wouldn't be too shocked.

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Jemma totally has a daughter already. One she left behind and feels guilty that she had to.

This episode felt a little bit like the "okay, we now mention everything we couldn't incorporate into the story" episode. And it was pretty much the epilogue to the larger one. Which AoS better nails. On the finale hinges the question if the two additional seasons were truly worth it.

I really don't see how they intend to fix this timeline while also explaining how the whole show now ties into the MCU at large in one episode, even if it is a two hour one.

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This is a terrible episode.  I had no idea that Mutant Enemy would end this series with BAD WRITING.  Daisy should not even exist, considering that her mother was killed FIVE YEARS before her birth.  With S.H.I.E.L.D. now destroyed, the Coulson LMD should no longer exist.  Mack, May, Elena, and Simmons shouldn't even be currently S.H.I.E.L.D. agents, let alone together.  I think Jed Whedon, Maurissa Tancharoen, and Jeffrey Bell's brains were on hold when they created this last season.  It's bad enough they had the Chronicoms going after Wilfrid Malick back in 1931, when they should have been going after Johann Schmidt, but this?  This is just BAD AND SLOPPY WRITING. 

 

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And once again, if it's revealed that Steve Rogers had to spend three decades fixing the chronological screw-ups of the past few seasons, I wouldn't be too shocked.

Steve Rogers?  Steve Rogers?  The MCU had already screwed everything up in "Endgame" by permanently sending Steve back in time to be with Peggy Carter.  I don't even want to think of the bad writing in that film.

Edited by LJones41
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I thought the team was going to have a different reaction when Kora suggested killing Grant Ward. I was sure they were going to respond in the affirmative with enthusiasm.

Kora's leather jacket is too modern if we're supposed to be in 1983 still. 80's leather jackets look like 80's leather jackets (and like nothing else on this planet). Do a Google image search if you want to be shocked by what people actually wore in public back then. Kora's is a little retro with the metal hoop details but it's too sleek to be from the 80's.

Although Sousa and Daisy are cute together, I'd rather see more of Sousa as the temporal fish out of water as we've already seen him pine over a gal before and we're not going to get much if anything of him and Daisy together.

I thought Deke was dead. Nathaniel knocked him over and that was sufficient revenge for Deke executing his father? That's some weaksauce right there although I'm glad Deke survived.

I guess they couldn't talk Dichen Lachman into sticking around for another five seconds to play a corpse. It was weird how we never saw her face even though the whole scene was set right there.

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38 minutes ago, dwmarch said:

I thought the team was going to have a different reaction when Kora suggested killing Grant Ward. I was sure they were going to respond in the affirmative with enthusiasm.

I thought the reaction was perfect.  They're heroes. So they are not going to be gung ho about murdering a kid.  But I appreciate that they all paused for a second like, "Okay, for an evil plan, I don't hate it." I mean, they still shot it down.  But that reaction moment was good.

I immediately assumed that the "bloodwork" was about Simmons being pregnant.  And she had obviously already resigned herself to not knowing where Fitz was.  But him saying that they needed to remove memories of her daughter (I assume) for her to do what she needed to do would be a lot for a parent to accept.

I'm loved seeing Mack and Daisy together. They were a great team and I didn't realize how much I missed it. And a big YES to Mack calling out how F'd up it is that Daisy having kissed Sousa and him not knowing. That said, I'm 100% enjoying the development of Dousy (apparently their official ship name per promo videos).

 And Mack and Sousa giggling about "Quake" was good as was Sousa ribbing Daisy about it. 

I'm gonna give Sousa a pass on not knowing Quake was only mid-level dumb for a supe name. Early comic book hero names were dumb, but not that bad.  He missed the 60s and 70s nonsense.  

NAKATOMI PLAZA REFERENCE!  I am an unabashed Die Hard fan. I loved it.  Oh Deke. You poor bastard.  You inherited Bobo's luck with physical abuse.

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9 minutes ago, LJones41 said:

Can someone explain how Daisy managed to continue to exist, when her mother died five years before her birth?

In exactly the same way that Deke has continued to exist even though both the circumstances of his birth and the future he remembers as his past cannot now happen - and in exactly the same way that Mack still has memories of growing up with his parents even though they now both died when he was a small child. They are all now living in a different timeline than the one they originally came from. Think of it like switching tracks on a railway line - the track you were on originally is still there, behind you, but the track you are now on is heading in a completely different direction. Terry Pratchett described it as going down the wrong trouser leg of time.

There are many different theories of time travel. The show opted for string theory way back at the end of S5 when Deke failed to pop out of existence after the gang changed the future they'd already seen. It is a valid interpretation.

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1 hour ago, LJones41 said:

Can someone explain how Daisy managed to continue to exist, when her mother died five years before her birth?

I think they are going with the multiple timeline/time stream theory in which any change creates an offshoot time stream that is independent from the reality of the original stream. Under that theory, the team's histories never alter. They lived what they lived.  But it also means that moving forward within that stream will never return them to their own timeline. They would have to find a way to jump laterally in the multiverse.*

It gets you around the paradox issue.  However, it makes the Chronicoms sort of less threatening if you think of their plan as having no ability to alter the prime stream of time the team came from and rather just creating a new timeline.

 

*This theory would sort of run counter to Endgame, however, since Cap reappeared in the existing timeline despite having created an new past and thus new verse.  I don't know.  Maybe it works if he took on a totally different personality and was the person Peggy referred to when he found her in Winter Soldier and she just knew to side step the truth.... But he was alive.... argh, whateves. 

Edited by RachelKM
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9 minutes ago, RachelKM said:

*This theory would sort of run counter to End Game, however, since Cap reappeared in existing timeline despite having created an new past and thus new verse.  I don't know.  Maybe it works if he took on a totally different personality and was the person Peggy referred to when he found her in Winter Soldier and she just knew to side step the truth.... But he was alive.... argh, whateves. 

Let's face it, though, the show has been in a different universe than the movies for a good few seasons now. I find it easier to think of them as completely different entities and enjoy the show for what it is without worrying about whether or not it ties in well with the movies!

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It gets you around the paradox issue.  However, it makes the Chromicroms sort of less threatening if you think of their plan as having no ability to alter the prime stream of time the team came from and rather just creating a new timeline.

That's what I've been saying for a few weeks now - under the multiple timeline theory, if they'd only stayed where they were instead of chasing the Chronicoms through time, they would surely have never felt any impact of the Chronicoms actions, because they would have ended up in different timelines! (Which is why it mattered at the end of S5 that we got to see Flint and Tess beginning the mammoth task of reconstruction, because they were still living in a timeline in which the world was destroyed, even though the team went back and created a new timeline in which it wasn't).

Oh, time travel stories are always so confusing!

Edited by Llywela
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6 hours ago, RachelKM said:

... the multiple timeline/time stream theory in which any change creates an offshoot time stream that is independent from the reality of the original stream. Under that theory, the team's histories never alter. They lived what they lived.  But it also means that moving forward within that stream will never return them to their own timeline.

I am hoping that this becomes the more accepted theory with regards to the possibility of time travel. I have grown weary of time travel stories (and there only seems to be more of them lately. Though I did enjoy Dark on Netflix, for the most part. )
I feel that most adults no longer buy into the 'Back To The Future' concept of jumping to the past, giving your grandparents stock market info, then  you return to your current time where you were born into a rich family and your girlfriend/boyfriend is a celebrity model.  
So, basically, any attempt to change the past is pointless - - that timeline continues as normal - - while you have only jumped into another timeline or alternate future. You have not saved anyone who died. You have not stopped the apocalypse. You only disappeared from your original timeline and created an alternate one. 

Edited by shrewd.buddha
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5 hours ago, swanpride said:

If they don't connect the show back to the main time-line, I'll riot!!!

I still think they get the show on the main timeline by proclaiming the entire thing was off the main timeline but its on loop like season 5 was.  All the talk of Sousa in the Battle of New York reminded me that Tony Stark was talking about LMDs before Dr Radcliffe and Aida. But that story pod happened after Feige won and big brother Whedon left and the show no longer had insiders knowledge of what was going on in the movies.

5 hours ago, Llywela said:

Let's face it, though, the show has been in a different universe than the movies for a good few seasons now. I find it easier to think of them as completely different entities and enjoy the show for what it is without worrying about whether or not it ties in well with the movies!

That's what I've been saying for a few weeks now - under the multiple timeline theory, if they'd only stayed where they were instead of chasing the Chronicoms through time, they would surely have never felt any impact of the Chronicoms actions, because they would have ended up in different timelines! (Which is why it mattered at the end of S5 that we got to see Flint and Tess beginning the mammoth task of reconstruction, because they were still living in a timeline in which the world was destroyed, even though the team went back and created a new timeline in which it wasn't).

Oh, time travel stories are always so confusing!

As Teal'c of Stargate said with their multiverse only my present realty counts. They are there, so they are fighting there not worrying about the theory that other universes are okay. It took Kora to finally get them to truly accept the multiple timelines even with Deke with them without Daisy and Graviton cracking the earth

7 hours ago, dwmarch said:

I thought the team was going to have a different reaction when Kora suggested killing Grant Ward. I was sure they were going to respond in the affirmative with enthusiasm.

 

Although Sousa and Daisy are cute together, I'd rather see more of Sousa as the temporal fish out of water as we've already seen him pine over a gal before and we're not going to get much if anything of him and Daisy together.

I thought Deke was dead. Nathaniel knocked him over and that was sufficient revenge for Deke executing his father? That's some weaksauce right there although I'm glad Deke survived.

 

When Kora mentioned Grant Ward  the team were thinking about the simulation in Aida's framework and were thinking that Ward could have been good if Hydra hadn't got to him. To which Kora suggested he was a worse, probably sociopathic son of a senator, without that focus that S.H.I.E.L.D./Hydra provided in the many futures she saw via Sibyl and the timestream.

 

Mack giving Chief Sousa the daddy talk got to me more than Sousa teasing Daisy about Quake.

 

I too thought Deke was done. That I just finished a rewatch of the Sarah Connor Chronicles and Major Crimes runs every weekend had major deaths going into their finales had me primed

Edited by Raja
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There are basically three time travel theories…

Number one is the Back to the future one, where changes in your past influence your presence. That one was always pretty iffy though, because in such a scenario the time traveller still remembers the original timeline, not the one which was changed for him. That's why Harry Potter takes it to the next level by pointing out the danger of destroying your own existence by meddling in the past. It is easily my least favourite, because it is just piling paradox upon paradox.

Number two is the one Fitz used to subscribe to, in which past and future has already happened. Meaning if you travel back in time whatever you change has already happened, and your time travel was part of the timeline all along. That's the most restrictive one, but it was used pretty successfully in the first Terminator movie (and then blown up in the second one).

And Number three is the Marvel version, with the multiple timeline. Which has two subcategories - the version in which EVERY change no matter how small creates a new timeline, and the version where only big changes do so (while small changes might lead to the time-line joining back together). That's my favourite one simply because it neither changes the past of the characters, nor ist it necessarily too paradox.

At this point though I guess the only way to solve the timeline is going back to 1955 and hindering the chronicom from approaching Malick.

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I really don't care about Kora or Nathanial. They are boring characters that I have no investment in. Like when Kora was giving her "join the darkside" speech, it didn't pay much wait as Daisy doesn't know her and has no connection to her. I did love that she called Jemma her sister :). 

So now Jemma doesn't even know who Fitz is? But clearly knows who Deke is. It clearly was a protective measure in case she got captured. But I do hope this is quickly fixed as next week in the finale? I was glad to get some new Fitz scenes but of course they were flashbacks. It does really seem that he died :(. However I do hope they get a happy ending mainly the timeline will rest to last season.

If Slbal could call the current Comicons then why did she take so long to do so? She kept saying that Coulson destroyed them and that's why she needed Nathanial. But if she could get her own people that she wouldn't need him. The whole thing doesn't make sense. 

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45 minutes ago, swanpride said:

Number two is the one Fitz used to subscribe to, in which past and future has already happened. Meaning if you travel back in time whatever you change has already happened, and your time travel was part of the timeline all along. That's the most restrictive one, but it was used pretty successfully in the first Terminator movie (and then blown up in the second one).

Harry Potter falls into this group.  Everything that Hermione and Harry do already happened they (and the viewer/reader) just didn't see it from the other side.  They always save buckbeak and Sirius. This is clearly shown in the movie when scenes are seen from the other side such as the jar shattering or the warewolf call. 

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Harry Potter also says that you CAN change the past, but then you might erase yourself from existence. Hence while the movie more or less falls into the second group, in the book it is suggested that time travel is dangerous unless you make sure that you DON'T try to encounter yourself.

Regarding the show, another way to solve the problem is that they encounter eventually versions of themselves in the changed timeline, and then jump back into their own.

Edited by swanpride

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3 hours ago, shrewd.buddha said:

I feel that most adults no longer buy into the 'Back To The Future' concept of jumping to the past, giving your grandparents stock market info, then  you return to your current time where you were born into a rich family and your girlfriend/boyfriend is a celebrity model.  

Given that people in this thread seem to think that Daisy should fade out of existence after her mother was killed before her death, I'd say there are people who buy into a Back to the Future view of temporal mechanics.

I personally subscribe to the idea that all time travel theories are valid some of the time.  Which theory is operating depends on the method of time travel that was used.  If the machine in Agents of SHIELD uses a different operating principle than the way used in Avengers Endgame, it would affect the timestream differently.

Think of it this way.  I can cook a chicken by several methods.  I grill it.  I can fry it.  I can saute it.  I can sous vide it.  I can braise it.  It tastes different depending on the method I choose.  Time travel also changes "flavor" based on the way it is used.

Avengers Endgame chose to travel in time by navigating the Quantum Realm, leading to a multiversal form of time travel.  However, Thanos using the Time Stone to rewind time at the end of Infinity War was also a form of going back in time.  Did that create another branch in the multiverse or did it work within the same timeline?

If Fitz made a machine that didn't operate by using the Quantum Realm, then maybe he "cooks" time differently and time travelers interact with the time stream differently in a way that doesn't invoke the Many Worlds interpretation.

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Between time travel, alternate timelines, virtual alternate realities, multiverses, etc., at some point you just have to give up and go along for the ride without trying to make logic of it.  I was just watching something (maybe 12 Monkeys) where characters have to reconcile their remembered timeline with a new timeline that they created - they have both memories, but eventually the old one fades away after much mental trauma. 
 

I don’t much care for Nathaniel and Kora and hope they become secondary quickly in the finale. I do believe Fitz is alive somewhere and somewhen, and that he put in the failsafe for good reason - it wasn’t enough for Jemma to know she couldn’t remember where Fitz is. So whatever he is doing is so vital that she had to forget him entirely to protect him.  Sybil did say all timelines where they fail is due to his existence.  Ergo, he still exists.

i loved it when Coulsen realizes, hey, I speak Computer!  Because he lived in Computerland.

 

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39 minutes ago, CatWarmer said:

i loved it when Coulsen realizes, hey, I speak Computer!  Because he lived in Computerland.

 

I forgot to mention this.  It was great as was Yo-yo's reaction to seeing him.  I cannot wait for Daisy to see it. 

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11 hours ago, dwmarch said:

I thought the team was going to have a different reaction when Kora suggested killing Grant Ward. I was sure they were going to respond in the affirmative with enthusiasm.

Ha! Can you imagine?

Yo-Yo: "So, who? Who's on this list?"

Kora: "Grant Ward." :: DUN DUN ... fizzle ::

Together: LMDPhil: "Cool." / FeelyMay: "Works for me." / Daisy: "Oh, f***, yeah! Best. Mission. Ever. " 

I'm actually more invested in this final season than I ever thought I could be, especially after the alternating  drudgery and horror of the "S.H.I.E.L.D. In Space" season -- a personal low point for me. But Nathaniel and Kora are both too whiny to be really chilling villains. Kora in particular seems to switch in and out of having emotional responses to anything. The actress's performance seems to hint that everything is manipulation with her, in ways that I'm not sure I find convincing. 

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Whilst this season hasn't been the best, I'm really going to miss this show after it ends next week.

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We finally get to see Fitz! Even if its just for a few minutes I am still so happy to see him! They seem to be implying that Fitz could be dead (like the blood test is for some illness) but I almost feel like if he was dead, they wouldn't be implying it so hard. Plus, killing him off at this point would just be so cruel after everything he and Simmons have been through. Come on, just let them have their happy ending already! 

I guess maybe Sibyl is technically the big bad finale villain, but Nathanial and Kora seem to be set up as the front line big bads, and they are not at all working for me as the last big bads for the whole show. They just arent that threatening compared to past bad guys, nor are they particularly fun or complex or scary, they are just kind of there to blow things up and cackle evilly. Their connections to HYDRA and Daisy and the Inhumans are tenuous at best, certainly not enough to be the big bads for the final season, they just seem pretty lackluster. 

Daisy and Sousa are going full steam ahead! I am shipping them super hard now, so I am glad to see that Mack is shipping it too. The light "dont hurt her" speech was cute, not too over the top, and the joking about Daisys superhero name was funny and sweet. Daisy and Sousa generally have a really nice easy chemistry, its not super angsty like so many of her romances have been, they can actually have fun and tease each other. 

I would be alright if the team went off to do their own things, they can still stay close. As Mack pointed out, they do have phones and stuff. It might not be the same, but it doesn't have to mean the end of them forever. Or ideally, everyone takes a few personal days. Or a few personal months. 

Yeah bad guys, no way were you taking down Yo-Yo at full super speed strength. Really, they should have just stayed in their cell, so then Kora wouldn't use them as target practice in her whole "save people by killing lots of other people" plan. The bit was she talked about killing Ward was decently interesting, I am curious about what a Ward who never met Garret would be like. We know that he had the capacity to be good, like the one in the Framework, but would he have still been good here? Its an interesting idea, the whole killing baby Hitler paradox, but there really isn't enough time to explore it. Cora would have been SUPER down for the "strange baby Thanos" plan. 

Everyone questioning Coulsons newfound hacker abilities was funny. Man, this must be one of Mays worst case scenarios, stuck being the teams very own Counselor Troi. 

So they have fully acknowledged that the timeline is totally fucked and they pretty much torn it all to pieces, and that this is basically a totally different timeline now. So I guess this is a new alternate universe now, unless they can fix things and go back to where they started? Or do they go back to a totally new timeline? That would actually explain why they weren't affected by the Snappening, they had already left this timeline by the time things went down and so were unaffected, while maybe other versions of them were affected? They seem to be doing the multiverse theory of time travel, hence Deke still being around even when his future was erased, so I guess its possible they can go back to the original timeline, or just be in a new one.

Edited by tennisgurl
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It’s a pity but for a show that I have liked far more then all of the Marvel movies combined I have hated this season.   The season had a lot of potential but it wasted it.   It could have dealt with all the characters greatest hits far more then it did even with Fitz being gone.   I mean come on Daisy runs into a child version of Ward.   Or even dealing more with Jiaying and having them fight together instead of each other.   It would have been far more interesting story then having Daisy spend two minutes with a sister that she never knew about.  
 

it really is disappointing.  I usually am a fan of time travel AND alternative timelines.  Both have the potential to bring back long dead characters and deal with trauma of the main cast.  And help them make hard choices.    Its just that this show hasn’t done that.  

At all.  

Edited by Chaos Theory
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There have been so many episodes this season that people came out of assuming Fitz must be dead, but honestly, to me not a single thing that has happened this season has supported that theory - to me, everything we've seen so far points to Fitz being alive and well and playing a critical role in the finale. Everything we've seen so far has been building toward a Big Damn Reunion. This was the penultimate episode, so of course it had to hit the 'all hope seems lost' note, that's how classical storytelling structure works, but there is no way in the universe this show would kill Fitz off-screen (or as a flashback). What we saw in this episode, for me, pointed more toward the secret child theory - the emphasis on taking time, on building a life, Jemma's devastation over having to forget, even the comment about bloodwork (to confirm a somewhat untimely pregnancy?)

I want everyone to get a happy ending, somehow. I'm fine with the team going their separate ways, building new lives for themselves, even if Daisy is finding it hard to accept the idea. But I want them all to live and move forward. I want Fitzsimmons (and Deke) to live out their lives as a happy family. I want Mack and Elena to have a chance to move their relationship forward and build a real life together. I want Daisy and Sousa to find their happy ending together, after all they've been through. And I want May and Coulson to find peace, preferably with each other, but I'm not sure Coulson's existential crisis is taking him in that direction.

I guess we'll find out for sure next week!

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16 hours ago, AimingforYoko said:

Obviously, Sousa never read comic books as a kid, if he thinks 'Quake' is funny.

Not superhero comics anyway, as he would have been around 20 when Action Comics 1 came out.

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Thinking about it some more, far from suggesting that anything has happened to Fitz, for me this episode outright confirmed that not only was he alive when Simmons left but that they got to spend a considerable period of time building a life and a home together as a married couple, before duty and a world in danger intervened once more. And I'm really glad they were able to have that, if only for a little while, it's what they've wanted since way back in season three. Maybe Jemma's happy ending will be returning to that home and that life, when this is all over.

ETA I also believe that 'secret child' is the theory best supported by all available evidence. It explains Jemma's distress when the memory chip was removed. "What have I done?" she said, and that's the reaction of a mother who'd just found out she deliberately chose to wipe her own memory of her child's existence. It explains her distress in the moment of activating the memory chip in the flashback, telling Fitz she would still feel guilt even if she didn't remember why - those aren't the words of a wife leaving her husband to go on mission, those are the words of a mother leaving her child behind. And it explains why Enoch was programmed to protect Fitz's location at all costs, even if he had to kill the entire team and even Jemma herself. That was more than just protecting Fitz - but if giving up Fitz's location also means endangering a child, that would explain it. It all fits, and it fits much better than Fitz being dead - this episode was pretty clear about him being alive when Jemma activated the chip to go on this mission.

Of course, I will probably be proved wrong next week! But for now, that what I think this storyline is building to.

Edited by Llywela
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You know, if the Chronicoms can contact their home planet for a fleet which can erase all SHIELD bases in seconds, you have to wonder why they bothered trying anything else in the past. Or why they couldn't do it in the present, last time I checked SHIELD didn't have any defences against lasers from space or whatever they used. But I guess the answer is the same as it is to most questions about the Chronicoms - they are incredibly stupid.

Just me or the actor playing Nathaniel is terrible? Him and Kora are so boring. I want to ask why Kora didn't bother killing May, Coulson and company but I guess the answer would be the same as above. At least the writing has been consistent about that.

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Kora and Nathaniel are like two petulant, angsty teenage villains. I think that's why they seem so lame to me, especially considering all the other villains we've had. I do wonder if it's just poor acting and with different casting it could be different. I find their expressions very theatrical. Kind of weird that both are like that.

However all is forgiven because Daisy and Sousa are soooooooooooo super cute! I love their bright and breezy chemistry. LOVE the fact that Daisy is this independent badass and Sousa is all very upstanding and chivalrous. I think he throws her a little, makes her all smiley.  It just makes for such an adorable dynamic.

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1 hour ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

You know, if the Chronicoms can contact their home planet for a fleet which can erase all SHIELD bases in seconds, you have to wonder why they bothered trying anything else in the past. Or why they couldn't do it in the present, last time I checked SHIELD didn't have any defences against lasers from space or whatever they used. But I guess the answer is the same as it is to most questions about the Chronicoms - they are incredibly stupid.

Just me or the actor playing Nathaniel is terrible? Him and Kora are so boring. I want to ask why Kora didn't bother killing May, Coulson and company but I guess the answer would be the same as above. At least the writing has been consistent about that.

The way it was played is that the Chronicoms didn't want genocide just to take out S.H.I.E.L.D. Somehow, maybe Coulson the Lighthouse was on the active S.H.I.E.L.D network so with the firewall down Sibyl located all their major bases, including "that one" which I am speculating held the Kree remains 

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I agree with all the comments about the blandness of Nathaniel and Kora as the villains.  I was routing for Kora to toast him during their kiss.  I wouldn't mind if they killed each other off in the first 5 minutes of the finale so that we could spend time with the characters we know and care for.  On some level, I would have enjoyed different low tech, robot versions of Sibyl as the villain.

Seeing Enoch and Fitz again was bittersweet. 

All the bits on the jet between Daisy, Mack, and Sousa were great.  They were a warm reminder of the good things about this show.  

  • Mack's shotgun axe casually draped across his back
  • Yo-yo bet against Daisy and Daniel as a couple and now owes Mack a twenty
  • "Buckle-up Danny boy" "Whatever, he's a dork."
  • Sousa teasing Daisy about her nickname and getting a Q belt buckle

(Side note: Dansy pronounced Dance-y remains the only ship name option that doesn't sound awkward to me.)

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In exactly the same way that Deke has continued to exist even though both the circumstances of his birth and the future he remembers as his past cannot now happen - and in exactly the same way that Mack still has memories of growing up with his parents even though they now both died when he was a small child. They are all now living in a different timeline than the one they originally came from. Think of it like switching tracks on a railway line - the track you were on originally is still there, behind you, but the track you are now on is heading in a completely different direction. Terry Pratchett described it as going down the wrong trouser leg of time.

Oh, I see.  Through bad writing.  Living in a different timeline?  The timeline changed.  And one of those changes should have been Daisy's lack of existence.  And yes, not even Deke should be living right now.  At least the Deke from the Kree space station.  This is bad writing.  Mutant Enemy is merely clutching to that time travel theory from "Endgame", which produced convoluted writing for that movie.  At least to me.  Is it really so difficult not to consider what we have witnessed was bad writing?  Are we expected to deliberately blind ourselves to these flaws and pretend that the show is ending on a high note?

 

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Between time travel, alternate timelines, virtual alternate realities, multiverses, etc., at some point you just have to give up and go along for the ride without trying to make logic of it. I was just watching something (maybe 12 Monkeys) where characters have to reconcile their remembered timeline with a new timeline that they created - they have both memories, but eventually the old one fades away after much mental trauma.

 

Why?  Why do I have to give up and go along for the ride?  Why do I have to pretend there is nothing wrong with this writing?  Why do I have to accept it?  I realize that it's not going to change.  But I don't see why I have to accept this, let alone refrain from expressing my complaints.

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6 hours ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

You know, if the Chronicoms can contact their home planet for a fleet which can erase all SHIELD bases in seconds, you have to wonder why they bothered trying anything else in the past. Or why they couldn't do it in the present, last time I checked SHIELD didn't have any defences against lasers from space or whatever they used. But I guess the answer is the same as it is to most questions about the Chronicoms - they are incredibly stupid.

This episode made out that the Chronicoms needed to infiltrate the SHIELD computers to know the locations of all the SHIELD bases...but if Sibyl can see all the strands of history, including the minute details of individual lives, in all their permutations, you'd think it would be easy for her to identify those locations. Identify a few SHIELD agents, trace their movements - she's a computer, surely that would have been an easier option than relying on Malick!

And yeah, infiltrating the base and then wiping out all other bases is absolutely a plan she could have enacted in the present, but let us bear in mind that it wasn't Plan A, or even Plan B. This was her last ditch 'SHIELD have foiled all my other plans to prevent their existence before it began so fine, I'll just blow them to kingdom come instead' plan.

5 hours ago, Terrafamilia said:

If Sybil could call the Chronicoms why not tell them how to avoid the destruction of Chronyca 2?

You would think so, yes. Back in S6, the original Chronicom plan was to use time travel to save their world. But then they decided creating a new world would be a better option, for some reason and seem determined not to change their minds, for some reason.

16 minutes ago, LJones41 said:

Oh, I see.  Through bad writing.  Living in a different timeline?  The timeline changed.  And one of those changes should have been Daisy's lack of existence.  And yes, not even Deke should be living right now.  At least the Deke from the Kree space station.  This is bad writing.  Mutant Enemy is merely clutching to that time travel theory from "Endgame", which produced convoluted writing for that movie.  At least to me.  Is it really so difficult not to consider what we have witnessed was bad writing?  Are we expected to deliberately blind ourselves to these flaws and pretend that the show is ending on a high note?

Bad writing? Multiple timelines isn't something made up by this show, it is one of the standard time travel theories debated by actual real life scientists, as well as one used by countless other science fiction movies and shows. What we're seeing here in the show is a valid interpretation of that theory. You don't have to enjoy it, and the plotlines may not be to your taste, you are well within your rights to prefer the Back to the Future model if that's what makes sense to you, but using a real world (albeit strictly theoretical) scientific model as the basis for storytelling is neither bad writing nor bad science. Multiple timelines branching off from one another is a completely valid take on a time travel story, and the continued existence of time travellers after the timeline they came from has been changed is completely in keeping with the multiple universe model. Wibbly wobbly timey wimey, as the Doctor would say. 😉

Mutant Enemy isn't 'clutching the time travel theory from Endgame' - in fact, the time travel seen in the show is following a slightly different scientific model than that used in Endgame, so far, probably because the methods used for time travel are different. In Endgame, all the time travellers were able to return to the original unchanged timeline - at this stage, it doesn't look like that is going to be possible for the team in the show. But the final denouement remains to be seen.

Edited by Llywela
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I am a sticker for logic in time travel and so far, the show hasn't broken it. The multiverse theory is a thing, you know….

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23 hours ago, RachelKM said:

*This theory would sort of run counter to Endgame, however, since Cap reappeared in the existing timeline despite having created an new past and thus new verse.  I don't know.  Maybe it works if he took on a totally different personality and was the person Peggy referred to when he found her in Winter Soldier and she just knew to side step the truth.... But he was alive.... argh, whateves. 

According to Endgame’s producers time travel there worked very similar to what AOS is using.  They say Steve and Peggy’s life together happened in a alternate timeline and he jumped back into the MCU timeline for the end of the movie. The writers disagree. I’m sticking with the multiverse version because the other makes no sense. 

 

1 hour ago, Llywela said:

Bad writing? Multiple timelines isn't something made up by this show, it is one of the standard time travel theories debated by actual real life scientists, as well as one used by countless other science fiction movies and shows. What we're seeing here in the show is a valid interpretation of that theory. You don't have to enjoy it, and the plotlines may not be to your taste, you are well within your rights to prefer the Back to the Future model if that's what makes sense to you, but using a real world (albeit strictly theoretical) scientific model as the basis for storytelling is neither bad writing nor bad science. Multiple timelines branching off from one another is a completely valid take on a time travel story, and the continued existence of time travellers after the timeline they came from has been changed is completely in keeping with the multiple universe model. Wibbly wobbly timey wimey, as the Doctor would say. 😉

I was writing a reply but you said it better. Personally I’m tired of the Back to the Future version of time travel because it fails about if you think about it for more than five minutes. So far AOS as one of the most consistent versions I’ve seen with minimal paradoxes. I kind of love that they so completely altered the timeline because I get irritated when shows don’t follow their own rules (I’m looking at you Arrowverse). 

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I dislike the idea of the writers that Steve existed in the main timeline not because of the question if it makes sense or not (it kind of does for the record), but because that would be hell on earth for Steve. Just imagine him having to sit on his hands for decades while Bucky is tortured and people die.

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I suppose...the way I see it, this is a science fiction show based on a comic book, so 'fantastical' is kind of baked into the concept right from the start. All science fiction relies on the willingness of the audience to suspend their disbelief. It can be kind of funny, though, to see where people choose to draw the line. Like, you are prepared to accept that a man can be brought back to life by having alien blood injected into him. You are prepared to accept that a person's memories can be completely overwritten by surgical means. You are prepared to accept the existence of magic dust that gives people superpowers, but only if they have special blood. You are prepared to accept the creation of super-duper androids so realistic that no one can tell them apart from the person they are based on - so realistic that even the androids themselves believe they are the real deal. You are prepared to accept the existence of alternate dimensions (the Darkhold and Ghostrider stories were based on that concept). You are prepared to accept the construction of a virtual reality version of the entire world indistinguishable from the real thing. You are prepared to accept that an aeroplane can be converted into a spaceship and that a magic space rock can fling people across both time and space. But a time travel storyline based on string theory is a step too far?

The show's approach to time travel over the last few seasons has actually had a lot more internal logic and consistency than a lot of their other storylines, imo!

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1 hour ago, Llywela said:

The show's approach to time travel over the last few seasons has actually had a lot more internal logic and consistency than a lot of their other storylines, imo!

I agree.  Generally I only ask that a show/movie set its rules and not violate them. I prefer it when it's based on real (if theoretical) science.  But I'll play along with world building. It's one of the reasons I don't mind the nonsense of Back to the Future. The idea of the kids disappearing in birth order is dumb as shit (not to mention the fading of Marty's hand).  But they set rules and they abided by them.

This show has been pretty consistent. As I said above, the multiple time threads theory sort of lowers the stakes for the team since it would not have affected them if they stayed in their own thread.  Sybil is wreaking havoc on the multiverse at large by creating new chaos streams.  But nothing that has happened can be changed (somewhere the Season 5 dystopian blown up earth future still exists, just sans Deke). It just makes another thread.

I guess you could argue that the heroes were driven to prevent the creation of new dystopias.  But if you start down that road, you're playing multiverse whack-a-mole. 

As a side note, I admit that will draw some sort of abrupt lines sometimes. Watching Pacific Rim, I was 100% on board with giant robots fighting aliens.  But I was super annoyed by the four propeller helicopters carrying the robots.  The physics of that just didn't work. So, utter nonsense based on ludicrous BS?  Fine.  Violating the laws of real world physics? Instant cognitive dissonance. Just give me a bonkers explanation please. I will absolutely buy in.

Edited by RachelKM · Reason: So many typos
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Well, depends...like, this nonsense with the door in Titanic? Never had a problem with that, because in the movie you can see Jack trying to get on the door and failing. I don't give a flying f... if in real live he should have been able to somehow fit onto it in real live, in the movie it is established that he can't and that is enough for me.

 

My biggest problem I have with the current storyline of AoS is the ever-looming question of in which timeline they are in and what happened to the snap.

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12 minutes ago, swanpride said:

Well, depends...like, this nonsense with the door in Titanic? Never had a problem with that, because in the movie you can see Jack trying to get on the door and failing. I don't give a flying f... if in real live he should have been able to somehow fit onto it in real live, in the movie it is established that he can't and that is enough for me.

Yeah, that isn't the kind of thing that I would normally get fixated on either. I don't remember it being blatantly obvious.  Granted, I hated that movie so much that I had completely checked out by the time Jacksickle died.

I do remember laughing out loud when the one dude fell from the top of the raised ship end and struck the propeller and spun all the way down.  Excellent work on the digital animation. 

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If we are going to nitpick I gotta wonder how exactly turning off all the electricity leads to instant hacking. Coulson said something about Kora "lowering the firewalls" but I really don't think a momentary lack of electric power in the entire base would turn off just the firewalls and not, you know, all the computers.

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And yeah, infiltrating the base and then wiping out all other bases is absolutely a plan she could have enacted in the present, but let us bear in mind that it wasn't Plan A, or even Plan B.

But why wasn't it Plan A? It's obviously much more likely to succeed than the idiotic schemes we have been seeing all season from the Chronicoms. Especially with the whole "Can't change the past, you can just create an alternate universe" thing.

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