S07.E11: Brand New Day

[Llywela]

25 minutes ago, Jack Shaftoe said:

But why wasn't it Plan A? It's obviously much more likely to succeed than the idiotic schemes we have been seeing all season from the Chronicoms. Especially with the whole "Can't change the past, you can just create an alternate universe" thing.

Look, I don't pretend to understand the logic of the Chronicoms! As far as I'm concerned, Plan A should have been 'save Chronica 2 now that we have unlocked the secret of time travel'! But at least they are consistent in their determination to stick to a stupid plan, once made. Can't fault their commitment, at least, however brainless.

[Raja]

As part of the "small but loyal fan base" the only part I really don't want to re watch is the end of season 6. Didn't the Chronicoms have a coup and assassinate the previous light skinned black leader who wanted to try to get back their own planet with monolith based time travel? So now we have the Predictor and new leadership emotionally all in with their war against S.H.I.E.L.D.

[Orbert]

It is almost impossible to express how boring Nathaniel and Kora are.  I think they're trying for the quiet yet menacing type, but the actors just aren't good enough to pull it off.  Nathaniel is a smarmy, spoiled brat.  When he had his little frustration tantrum and broke something, shouting about how he's used to getting his way, I just thought Yeah, because you're a spoiled brat.  Then he went back to being boring some more.

Kora was almost interesting for while, but it was hard to tell if she was trying to fool Daisy and May about her goals, or if she was sincere, because she's not a very good actress either, so it could've gone either way.  Blasting a hole in her redshirted former associate I guess was her one non-boring moment.  Then Kora and Nathaniel were happily, boringly reunited at the end, and we have no idea whether Kora's little scheme worked or what, because we never understood what it was in the first place.  Unless the whole thing was just to cut the power, which cut the firewall (yet somehow not the computers themselves) so the Sibyl could come in and tease Coulson.  Or something.

[Raja]

Sibyl teasing Coulson was an homage to Jarvis fighting Ultron in cyberspace.

[BaggythePanther]

1 hour ago, Orbert said:

Then Kora and Nathaniel were happily, boringly reunited at the end, and we have no idea whether Kora's little scheme worked or what, because we never understood what it was in the first place. 

I saw someone compare Kora’s reunion with Nathaniel to the time Skye went along with Ward right after she found out he was Hydra. If that’s what they were trying to go for it wasn’t really clear. There was a moment when I thought Kora might kill Nathaniel right after their kiss but her motivations have been all over the place so I don’t know when she’s lying and when she’s being sincere. 
 

ETA: Does Deke know the chip in Simmons’ head is named Diana? Though even if that was his mother’s name he might not say anything to keep that aspect of the timeline intact.

Edited August 7, 2020 by BaggythePanther

[Enigma X]

I don't know when Kora is lying or being sincere because her expression and tone is always the same for every emotion.

[blackwing]

I have no idea how everything is going to be righted, but now every SHIELD base is destroyed.  How come the Lighthouse didn't get targeted?  Is it because it is supposedly inactive?  I just want to see a proper ending, with everything tied up and no loose ends.

I agree with everyone who said that Nathaniel and Kora are boring.  I guess Nathaniel is supposed to be more powerful than Daisy since he said he's had years of practice with his/her powers while she's only had 5 i guess?  I'm curious that Nathaniel has never mentioned Gideon again and I can't even remember, did Gideon die in the timeline we are in right now?

12 minutes ago, Enigma X said:

I don't know when Kora is lying or being sincere because her expression and tone is always the same for every emotion.

Yes.  Unfortunately, the actress is pretty awful.  She was the exact same way in "Warrior" on Cinemax.  Flat monotonous little girl voice.  I'm not sure if this is what she thinks like a "strong powerful woman" should sound like, but she's pretty one note.

I thought she believed May when May said that Nathaniel killed Jiaying, but it's so hard to tell.

[VCRTracking]

In Endgame the Avengers could only return to their present timeline through the Quantum Realm and technology derived from Pym Particles Tony Stark figured out. Without that they're stuck in the altered timeline. Like old Spock Prime in the Kelvan timeline on Star Trek. 

[Raja]

27 minutes ago, blackwing said:

I have no idea how everything is going to be righted, but now every SHIELD base is destroyed.  How come the Lighthouse didn't get targeted?  Is it because it is supposedly inactive?  I just want to see a proper ending, with everything tied up and no loose ends.

I agree with everyone who said that Nathaniel and Kora are boring.  I guess Nathaniel is supposed to be more powerful than Daisy since he said he's had years of practice with his/her powers while she's only had 5 i guess?  I'm curious that Nathaniel has never mentioned Gideon again and I can't even remember, did Gideon die in the timeline we are in right now?

 

I guess because it had one S.H.I.E.L.D cadet. The rest were out of their time period and less likely to be a S.H.I.E.L.D asset to stop the Chronicoms plans. The arrogance of the victors ignoring potential rebels.

At this point Gideon could be a casualty at a S.H.I.E.L.D main base

[LJones41]

46 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

In Endgame the Avengers could only return to their present timeline through the Quantum Realm and technology derived from Pym Particles Tony Stark figured out. Without that they're stuck in the altered timeline. Like old Spock Prime in the Kelvan timeline on Star Trek. 

You actually bought this crap?  This was basically contrived writing from Stephen McFeeley and Christopher Markus, because they didn't want to deal with any consequences of time travel and they wanted an excuse for some nostalgic franchise road trip for "Endgame".  And how did Tony Stark suddenly become the team's only expert in time travel?

"Agents of SHIELD" finally jumped the shark.  Daisy should have ceased to exist at the end of the last episode.  Her mother was just killed five years before her death.  This was just fucking stupid.  And now, the SHIELD team still exists, despite the destruction of the agency at the end of this episode.  And spare me the "alternate timeline' theory from "The Avengers: Endgame".  One, it's just a theory.   And theory or not, it was badly utilized in not only "Endgame", but recently in "Agents of SHIELD".  The series practically dismissed the alternate timeline theory earlier in the season and utilized the butterfly effect writing trope.  And then it suddenly switched to this alternate timeline theory in order to justify Daisy's continuing existence after her mother was killed five years before her birth?  SLOPPY WRITING.  I'm so disgusted that I can't believe I had stuck with this show for seven years, let alone this damn franchise for 12 years.  

Edited August 7, 2020 by LJones41

[VCRTracking]

44 minutes ago, LJones41 said:

You actually bought this crap?  This was basically contrived writing from Stephen McFeeley and Christopher Markus, because they didn't want to deal with any consequences of time travel and they wanted an excuse for some nostalgic franchise road trip for "Endgame".  And how did Tony Stark suddenly become the team's only expert in time travel?

"Agents of SHIELD" finally jumped the shark.  Daisy should have ceased to exist at the end of the last episode.  Her mother was just killed five years before her death.  This was just fucking stupid.  And now, the SHIELD team still exists, despite the destruction of the agency at the end of this episode.  And spare me the "alternate timeline' theory from "The Avengers: Endgame".  One, it's just a theory.   And theory or not, it was badly utilized in not only "Endgame", but recently in "Agents of SHIELD".  The series practically dismissed the alternate timeline theory earlier in the season and utilized the butterfly effect writing trope.  And then it suddenly switched to this alternate timeline theory in order to justify Daisy's continuing existence after her mother was killed five years before her birth?  SLOPPY WRITING.  I'm so disgusted that I can't believe I had stuck with this show for seven years, let alone this damn franchise for 12 years.  

There's been many versions of time travel in fiction and alternate timelines so I don't know why only one needs to be correct. Since it's all theorerical I don't think of it as sloppy writing. Honestly the alternate timelines theory is much cleaner than the other types. I love Back to the Future but having his parents fall in love even a slightly  different way than originally would have still threatened Marty McFly's existence!  Doctor Who in the Steve Moffat era loves the "Bootstrap paradox" but they've had all kinds of different types of time travel used on that show that anything goes."Wibbly Wobbly Timey Wimey" as they say.  Sure they discussed the "butterfly effect" earlier but the person who theorized that was Deke, who not only is NOT a physicist, is simeone who shouldn't even exist anymore if they were following that logic. The fact that Fitz is still alive(at least we know during season 6) also proves the alternate timeline thing. The rules of the MCU has been established as alternate timelines. Legends of Tomorrow style time travel is it's all one timeline which can bealtered, back and forth like a dry erase board and that's fine for the stories they're telling. The time travel story in season 5 is really about one version of the team escaping a time cycle and getting to live in a world that wasn't destroyed by Graviton. There was still the other previous version where most survived and lived out there lives in the Lighthouse in space. 

Edited August 7, 2020 by VCRTracking

[swanpride]

It actually wasn't Deke who brought up the Butterfly effect, that was either Mack or Daisy. Deke was the one who explained that nope, that isn't quite correct, and explained the ripple vs wave theory. And Deke actually IS the resident expert in this subject, he introduced the notion of a multiverse back in season 5 and is living proof that he was right.

[Llywela]

43 minutes ago, LJones41 said:

You actually bought this crap?  This was basically contrived writing from Stephen McFeeley and Christopher Markus, because they didn't want to deal with any consequences of time travel and they wanted an excuse for some nostalgic franchise road trip for "Endgame".  And how did Tony Stark suddenly become the team's only expert in time travel?

"Agents of SHIELD" finally jumped the shark.  Daisy should have ceased to exist at the end of the last episode.  Her mother was just killed five years before her death.  This was just fucking stupid.  And now, the SHIELD team still exists, despite the destruction of the agency at the end of this episode.  And spare me the "alternate timeline' theory from "The Avengers: Endgame".  One, it's just a theory.   And theory or not, it was badly utilized in not only "Endgame", but recently in "Agents of SHIELD".  The series practically dismissed the alternate timeline theory earlier in the season and utilized the butterfly effect writing trope.  And then it suddenly switched to this alternate timeline theory in order to justify Daisy's continuing existence after her mother was killed five years before her birth?  SLOPPY WRITING.  I'm so disgusted that I can't believe I had stuck with this show for seven years, let alone this damn franchise for 12 years.  

The various different theories of time travel have been explained to you in detail already. Your refusal to accept or comprehend how those theories work is your problem, not the show's. The show is using a very standard and popular version of time travel and is doing a good job of it, on the whole. None of things you call 'stupid' actually are, they all make sense within the rules established by the show several seasons ago now - the multiverse theory was well and truly established on the show back in S5, it isn't new this season. There is nothing sloppy or implausible about Daisy's continued existence, it makes perfect sense within the multiverse theory, which, as previously stated, is a real world scientific model that has been used by a great many science fiction narratives, it isn't something that was made up for this show.

The characters have discussed different possibilities for how their time travel adventures will pan out, yes, because they are trying to figure out how best to operate. But the show itself has remained consistent in how its internal rules work, which is pretty much all anyone can ask of science fiction.

Seriously. This is a show that had magic dust activate superpowers in people with special blood, and yet multiverse theory is what broke you! 😄

Edited August 7, 2020 by Llywela

[VCRTracking]

8 minutes ago, swanpride said:

It actually wasn't Deke who brought up the Butterfly effect, that was either Mack or Daisy. Deke was the one who explained that nope, that isn't quite correct, and explained the ripple vs wave theory. And Deke actually IS the resident expert in this subject, he introduced the notion of a multiverse back in season 5 and is living proof that he was right.

Right. What they should have said is "Don't change the past or the present they return to will be vastly different." As someone posted the team should have just stayed in the present and let the Chromicons change the past because it wouldn't change their timeline. 

Edited August 7, 2020 by VCRTracking

[swanpride]

Should they have allowed the Chronicoms to f... up some time-line?

[paigow]

Sibyl is in the Lighthouse mainframe, so ordering her own destruction would not be in her programming.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, swanpride said:

Should they have allowed the Chronicoms to f... up some time-line?

Looking at it with the benefit of hindsight? Probably. There are probably a lot of screwed up timelines and they haven’t been able to stop the Chronicoms. Realistically, Stargate’s Teal’c has the best view of the multiverse. Of course that is easier said than done. 

[VCRTracking]

Also if Daisy is wiped from existence by Jiaying's death, where would Malick get his powers to kill Jiaying in the first place? This is why

Edited August 7, 2020 by VCRTracking

[Sandman]

On 8/6/2020 at 6:35 PM, Jack Shaftoe said:

Just me or the actor playing Nathaniel is terrible? Him and Kora are so boring.

Nope; not just you. Not at all.

This show had trouble casting villains. They're often either so boring I can't take them seriously, or so torrentially, over-the-top vicious (and stupid) that I'm left wondering how their own people haven't slapped them to death already.

[RachelKM]

11 hours ago, swanpride said:

Should they have allowed the Chronicoms to f... up some time-line?

Well, as I said up thread, it's nearly impossible to totally prevent this.  It requires preventing every possible change by the Chronicoms which itself relies on precognition.  Even Sybil's probability prediction isn't enough.  You have to stop them before they start. Even if you subscribe to the ripple vs. wave concept (as opposed to every choice creates a two alternate realities in which each result occurs) you still can't play much defense.  Once the Chronicoms go someplace and meddle, playing defense is not a sustainable strategy. (Again, it's basically multiverse whack-a-mole.)  

And even if they had someone who was capable of getting ahead of the Chronicoms, what are the ethical considerations of abandoning their own timeline/reality and whatever good they could do there to try to play Time Cops? It's a cosmic trolly problem.....

Edited August 8, 2020 by RachelKM

[MisterGlass]

11 minutes ago, Sandman said:

This show had trouble casting villains. They're often either so boring I can't take them seriously, or so torrentially, over-the-top vicious (and stupid) that I'm left wondering how their own people haven't slapped them to death already.

It's sad, because the ones that they had that were good were really, really good.

[VCRTracking]

Nathanial and Kora work for me because I hate them and can't wait to see them die painfully. They elicit the "This fucking guy" and "This bitch" reaction when we they appear. At this point I don't want enjoyable villains I wish we had more seasons of. I'm not looking for a Gul Dukat in the final season. 

Edited August 8, 2020 by VCRTracking

[Kel Varnsen]

Didn't really care for this episode and actually ended up taking a nap in the middle. I don't care at all about Mallick Junior, he is super lame. I can't even remember is he the alternate universe son or brother of Powers Booth? Plus like others have said if the Chroniccons have a fleet of ships and time travel why bother with all the little timeline meddling. Plus after a fun season of cool time travel adventures we are now back to an entire episode taking place in dark, non-descript windowless rooms.

On 8/6/2020 at 3:36 AM, RachelKM said:

I This theory would sort of run counter to Endgame, however, since Cap reappeared in the existing timeline despite having created an new past and thus new verse.  I don't know.  Maybe it works if he took on a totally different personality and was the person Peggy referred to when he found her in Winter Soldier and she just knew to side step the truth.... But he was alive.... argh, whateves. 

Tony invented some gadget so that you could travel back in time and then properly come back to your own timeline. Before that there was that scene with Hulk where Ant-man came back as a baby and an old man.

On 8/6/2020 at 10:13 AM, blueray said:

 

 

[Sandman]

17 hours ago, VCRTracking said:

Nathanial and Kora work for me because I hate them and can't wait to see them die painfully.

Oh, I can't wait either; I just wish it would happen faster. I hate them without finding them interesting enough to want them onscreen. (Also, Nathaniel: yelling at underlings because you want to play pretend that the organization you put together isn't viciously hierarchical is just short-sighted, dude.)

[foxfreakinmulder]

I was sooo happy to see Fitz on my screen :)

I was wondering how Nathaniel got the plane he's on out of the lighthouse when Mac told Daisy it needed a code entered by the Director to open the door (or something like that) or did I hear him wrong? 

Is there 1 or 2 more episodes left? I hope the last episode is 2 hours and free of Nathaniel and Kora. I'm so sick of them.

[Raja]

On 8/7/2020 at 7:57 PM, Kel Varnsen said:

Didn't really care for this episode and actually ended up taking a nap in the middle. I don't care at all about Mallick Junior, he is super lame. I can't even remember is he the alternate universe son or brother of Powers Booth? Plus like others have said if the Chroniccons have a fleet of ships and time travel why bother with all the little timeline meddling. Plus after a fun season of cool time travel adventures we are now back to an entire episode taking place in dark, non-descript windowless rooms.

Tony invented some gadget so that you could travel back in time and then properly come back to your own timeline. Before that there was that scene with Hulk where Ant-man came back as a baby and an old man.

 

Powers Booth played Nathaniel's big brother Gideon who cheated the Hydra lottery and saw his little brother sent through the space monolith to Maveth. By the time of the Battle of New York he was an undercover Hydra and on the World Security Council.

Tony Starks' quantum GPS worked for the quantum universe which the Avengers shrunk down to to time travel as time worked different in the quantum realm. I know I am just putting quantum in front of everything 😉

In any case I like the different methods of time travel, going quantum, via the time stone and the Agents time monolith are different so different rules apply to them head canon myself.

As for the Chronicoms suppose they know S.H.I.E.L.D. caused the monolith riff to open which brought us season 6 and Izel which  killed their planet. Then perhaps they want revenge more than just a place to live. They wouldn't be the first sentient race to do the illogical in order to serve their emotions.

[ProudMary]

20 minutes ago, foxfreakinmulder said:

Is there 1 or 2 more episodes left? I hope the last episode is 2 hours and free of Nathaniel and Kora. I'm so sick of them.

Yes. 😄

There are two episodes remaining, but they will be shown back-to-back on Wednesday. 

[Raja]

22 minutes ago, foxfreakinmulder said:

I was sooo happy to see Fitz on my screen 🙂

I was wondering how Nathaniel got the plane he's on out of the lighthouse when Mac told Daisy it needed a code entered by the Director to open the door (or something like that) or did I hear him wrong? 

Is there 1 or 2 more episodes left? I hope the last episode is 2 hours and free of Nathaniel and Kora. I'm so sick of them.

It is still set as a two hour finale with no plans to extend over two weeks it like Hawaii 5-0 did at the beginning of the global lockdowns

[Llywela]

34 minutes ago, foxfreakinmulder said:

I was wondering how Nathaniel got the plane he's on out of the lighthouse when Mac told Daisy it needed a code entered by the Director to open the door (or something like that) or did I hear him wrong? 

I suspect he achieved it the same way he learned how to fly the Zephyr in the first place - Sibyl showed him everything he needed to know in the timestream, the ultimate deus ex machina!

[swanpride]

I hope for something as legendary as SOS.

[bethy]

I needed to watch again to capture some thoughts about this episode.

1. I continue to love what they are doing with Souza. He's a man of his time, but willing to roll with what's going on around him and adapt. (I loved his humble brag of "We were kind of the bad boys of the Boy Scouts" almost immediately followed by, "You think I'm the kind of person that would do that?" in response to Daisy's question about sneaking off the base.) He interacts with Daisy on her level without neediness, but with humor - his teasing her about being Quake made me laugh out loud - and self-assurance. He's a man (not a guy - see Say Anything) in the best sense of the word. I dig it. 

2. Simmons and Deke were breaking my heart. They love each other so much in the weirdest, most wonderful you're-my-grandma/grandson-but-we're-the-same-age kind of way. Also Deke looked like Adrian Pasdar to me when he was all beat up. 

3. Fitz! So happy to see him. And I'm with those who think/hope that Simmons's distress is about leaving behind a child, not just Fitz. I actually want it to be a baby other than Deke's mom. I want them to have more than just one kid!

4. Mack and his converstations with both Daisy and Souza were so great. I loved him calling Daisy out on liking Souza and threatening Souza if he hurt her. Mack is the best big brother. I also appreciated his take on Daisy's news about this mission being their last together. 

I've really enjoyed this season. I can't believe next week is the end. 😭

Edited August 10, 2020 by bethy

[Gothish520]

I'm with you @bethy. I loved this episode, this season, and this whole damn show and I'm getting verklempt thinking about next week! 

[Kel Varnsen]

16 hours ago, Raja said:

Powers Booth played Nathaniel's big brother Gideon who cheated the Hydra lottery and saw his little brother sent through the space monolith to Maveth. By the time of the Battle of New York he was an undercover Hydra and on the World Security Council.

As much as I am enjoying this season talk about a downgrade going from Powers freaking Booth as your villain named Mallick to the guy they got playing Nathaniel.

[Raja]

10 minutes ago, Kel Varnsen said:

As much as I am enjoying this season talk about a downgrade going from Powers freaking Booth as your villain named Mallick to the guy they got playing Nathaniel.

I bet they tried to get Powers Booth and Samuel L. Jackson back one more time. Realistically even Cobie Smulders was probably out of the question. In my dream casting Robert Downey Jr meets a LMD Coulson while pretending that Tony Stark is a LMD so he could be alone with Pepper Potts.

[Kel Varnsen]

30 minutes ago, Raja said:

I bet they tried to get Powers Booth and Samuel L. Jackson back one more time. Realistically even Cobie Smulders was probably out of the question. In my dream casting Robert Downey Jr meets a LMD Coulson while pretending that Tony Stark is a LMD so he could be alone with Pepper Potts.

Powers Booth died in 2017 so having him back for the final AoS season would have been super impressive.

As for RDJ I actually watched Iron Man 3 last night and it made me think how if they wanted it would have probably been relatively easy to have a drone Iron man suit show up at one point or just the suit and Downey doing voice over without the mask raising.

[Raja]

3 hours ago, Kel Varnsen said:

Powers Booth died in 2017 so having him back for the final AoS season would have been super impressive.

As for RDJ I actually watched Iron Man 3 last night and it made me think how if they wanted it would have probably been relatively easy to have a drone Iron man suit show up at one point or just the suit and Downey doing voice over without the mask raising.

Sorry to hear that

[Cranberry]

You wanna learn about time travel? Well, have I got the site for you! It's got a bunch of technical information, but jump to the "Type Summaries" section for explanations and examples of the different kinds of time travel plots. AoS appears to be using type four ("quantum forking"), although it seems they're claiming only big events create a new fork, so they're using the lax version. (At least as of this episode. I haven't watched the finale yet -- just about to!)

It seems like some viewers would prefer this season to be a type three ("overwriting") plot, which is definitely fun but incredibly high stakes as any changes to the one timeline are permanent -- Daisy really would have vanished when her mom died. I believe the show Timeless used this type; I remember an episode where the gang traveled back in time to help Ian Fleming, which resulted in him writing a Bond novel that included characters much like them. When they jumped back to their present, it (and a movie adaptation) existed -- and, to the team members who hadn't been on the time machine, had always existed. That was a fun show, and the earlier episodes of this season reminded me very much of it.

Here's a simpler, three-type time travel explanation graphic that I also like.

 

[AAEBoiler]

Gah, I'm finally getting around to watching this final season ... and it's been a slog. While I know that it's not interesting tv to have the "good guys" always win but this season has been absolutely exhausting with loss upon loss upon loss upon loss piled up on the team. I'm dreading watching the 2-hour finale and just want to skip to the end to see Fitz & Simmons happily together, Mack & Yo-Yo together, May with a smile on her face, and Deke happily ensconced in the nineties fronting the grunge band Nirvana in an alternate timeline.