S02.E10: The End of Something

[festivus]

I just watched the last episode again and they showed Harlan twirling the bird right after they passed the New Mexico sign. So it may be nothing more than showing that he has something alien in him now. But I won't be surprised if Harlan plays a part in the next season.

[MissL]

6 hours ago, hoopznyo said:

Roswell is in New Mexico, so I think that may be why.

Roswell was the first thing I thought of too! But I wasn’t sure if that’s what they were going for....

[Whimsy]

I don't understand how Ben aged as a ghost.  When they showed Ben first appearing to Klaus he was much younger (and a different actor) but now Ben looks about the same age as the rest to the UA.  I like the actor and character of Ben, so I'm ok with it, I just would like an explanation.  Unless I missed it.  Totally possible.

[AnimeMania]

5 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

They also got rid of the super cringy incest thing between Luther and Allison, and thank God for that! Its not great when you have to say things like "well its technically not incest..." when it comes to relationships. The awkward mouth to mouth and check kiss seemed to put the final nail in that coffin. 

I am not seeing this, when they hug, everybody in the world disappears. When they kiss, every thought in Allison's mind disappears. I thought that was the definition of "True Love".

"Team Zero" brought on their whole miserable childhoods by telling Hargreeves the exact date he should collect as many kids as he can because they will grow up to have super powers. Of course Hargreeves may not want all of the ones in front of him because he was not that impressed by how they turned out. 

Someone mentioned earlier a limit to the number of jumps that "No. 5" can perform, but when he was fighting himself, I am sure he jumped way more times than anyone would have expected. 

[formerlyfreedom]

7 hours ago, festivus said:

Wouldn't Klaus be the oldest now? I think he got dropped the earliest?

Not only did he get dropped almost three years earlier, he also spent extended time in Vietnam in Season 1, so he's got what, 4-5 years on the rest of them now? Definitely not in maturity, mind you...

[Delphi]

14 hours ago, festivus said:

What a babyface. My oldest son is 32 but easily looks 10 years younger so I guess I need to get over it! I think the rest do look 30 though or close to it. 

Haha, I'm cracking up at that comment,  I just turned 31 and got pretty much constantly get carded for things I could've bought a decade ago.   I mean,  I'm not taking car of myself so I don't know why I'm aging well, but I'm not complaining. 

[festivus]

7 hours ago, saoirse said:

Not only did he get dropped almost three years earlier, he also spent extended time in Vietnam in Season 1, so he's got what, 4-5 years on the rest of them now? Definitely not in maturity, mind you...

Oh yeah, Vietnam. I guess he's only got 2 to 3 years on them though because they were dropped in 61 and 62. Of course Five will always be the oldest but it amuses me that after all the shenanigans Klaus is now older than the rest. 

[peachmangosteen]

13 hours ago, Whimsy said:

I don't understand how Ben aged as a ghost.  When they showed Ben first appearing to Klaus he was much younger (and a different actor) but now Ben looks about the same age as the rest to the UA.  I like the actor and character of Ben, so I'm ok with it, I just would like an explanation.  Unless I missed it.  Totally possible.

I also don't remember them explaining this and I wonder about it, too.

[festivus]

I'm starting to wonder if this new timeline is the reason why Ben aged as a ghost in the old one.

[Sakura12]

Ben is Asian, we don't age like everyone else. I still get when am I graduating from high school and I'm in my mid 30's. It's also annoying to order drinks, they think I have a fake ID. 

As for why he ages as ghost I just go with he has superpowers. We also don't know how he died. If it was magical/powers related maybe that's why he still ages with the rest. 

[Zuleikha]

I also don't remember them explaining this and I wonder about it, too.

My fanwankery is that it's because Klaus intentionally summoned him and they spend so much time together. It's a different relationship than Klaus has with any other ghost.

[Delphi]

12 minutes ago, Zuleikha said:

 

My fanwankery is that it's because Klaus intentionally summoned him and they spend so much time together. It's a different relationship than Klaus has with any other ghost.

That's my theory as well,  Klaus summoned teenage Ben away from going to the light or heaven,  and kept him with him for fifteen years as the only ghost that constantly stayed with him despite how trashed he got.   I just assumed not actually going to the after life caused Ben's spirit to age long after his body died.   That and they wanted an adult actor along with other adult actors,  5 being the the growing up quickly exception. 

 

[Bad Example]

On 8/4/2020 at 4:12 PM, tennisgurl said:

They also got rid of the super cringy incest thing between Luther and Allison, and thank God for that! Its not great when you have to say things like "well its technically not incest..." when it comes to relationships. The awkward mouth to mouth and check kiss seemed to put the final nail in that coffin. 

 

I am not the least bit bothered by Luther and Allison.  I think it's kind of sweet.  They didn't have a normal brother/sister dynamic, no matter what RH called them, they were more like two kids at boarding school.  

And they didn't say technically "not incest"... it dropped off after "technically", which to Allison would have been "technically not brother and sister", no matter how Klaus wanted to interpret it.

 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

23 hours ago, saoirse said:

On 8/4/2020 at 5:17 PM, festivus said:

Wouldn't Klaus be the oldest now? I think he got dropped the earliest?

Not only did he get dropped almost three years earlier, he also spent extended time in Vietnam in Season 1, so he's got what, 4-5 years on the rest of them now? Definitely not in maturity, mind you...

We know Ben died in 2006, so by 2019 he would have been dead 13 years old. He told Vanya that he had spent 17 years since his death with Klaus ("gravy"). So, Klaus has lived an extra 4 years outside of the normal timeline.

I wonder what Ben was doing while presumably with Klaus in Vietnam.

[Paloma]

9 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

I wonder what Ben was doing while presumably with Klaus in Vietnam.

I wonder about that also. I don't remember seeing Ben in any of the Vietnam scenes. I guess there wasn't any reason to show him in those scenes, since their purpose was to show the development of the relationship between Klaus and Dave and then Dave's death. But considering that Ben is always with Klaus and how complicated their relationship is, it would have been nice to see at least a brief scene showing Ben's presence and reaction to what happened in Vietnam.

[methodwriter85]

American Horror Story had aging ghosts so I just went with Ben being older. I think he ages because Klaus is aging and he doesn't want to talk to a 17-year old Ben. He wants Ben to grow and mature so that is why Ben manifests as someone on his 30's instead of the age he was when he died.

[Delphi]

Hoping for a season three.  We all deserve an episode focusing on Ben and we see everything from his death to what he was up to until ghost death.   It might be boring,  but I deserve it. 

[iMonrey]

Overall it was a wonderful season but this finale felt a bit rushed. The massive battle at the farm achieved the cinematic look they were going for but all those bullets and nobody got hit? Yeah, right. There were better ways to stage that, they just couldn't be bothered.

When Five jumped back in time just a few seconds to save his siblings, did anyone else think of Galaxy Quest and the Omega 13?

Not sure how I feel about the alternate timeline. Too little info to go on at this point. Nothing about the Season 1 finale suggested they might wind up in Dallas in the early 60s so it's quite possible even the writers don't yet know where they're going with this, or if they do, that they might change their minds.

I did like this season better than the first one, which is saying something because I liked the first season a lot. But I re-watched the entire first season before jumping into this one just to refresh my memory, and season 2 had a lot more humor. 

Quote

Dad was not particularly impressed with his supposed children during “A Light Supper” so getting  a view of the kids he picked he might have chosen others.

I'm not sure how he could avoid picking the same children, though. He would have no idea which is which when they are newborns. Their powers aren't apparent yet at that point.

Quote

I was caught off guard in this episode by Diego redirecting that cloud of bullets.  Up to this point I thought his power was about superior aim and agility.

I know, right? I was like "since when does he have that power?" Apparently there were a few earlier scenes suggesting it but the show did not make that clear. Perhaps there were some deleted scenes that did.

[tennisgurl]

I suspect that Diego’s powers might not be so much accuracy like we thought (like throwing knives) as much as some kind of low level telekinesis where he can control where things go when they are thrown or shot, so he can do things like make bullets stop in midair. I feel like, especially after the big season opener where the siblings fought the USSR in the first timeline, that they all have way more potential and are way more powerful than they think they are. Probably because Reggie is an awful teacher and father, so they never reached the full potential of their powers. 

[blueray]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

When Five jumped back in time just a few seconds to save his siblings, did anyone else think of Galaxy Quest and the Omega 13?

No, but I wish I did :). 

[Captain Carrot]

4 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

kind of low level telekinesis

I'm actually thinking he's a low level magneto since we've only seen him do this with metal objects.

[Delphi]

6 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Overall it was a wonderful season but this finale felt a bit rushed. The massive battle at the farm achieved the cinematic look they were going for but all those bullets and nobody got hit? Yeah, right. There were better ways to stage that, they just couldn't be bothered.

When Five jumped back in time just a few seconds to save his siblings, did anyone else think of Galaxy Quest and the Omega 13?

Not sure how I feel about the alternate timeline. Too little info to go on at this point. Nothing about the Season 1 finale suggested they might wind up in Dallas in the early 60s so it's quite possible even the writers don't yet know where they're going with this, or if they do, that they might change their minds.

I did like this season better than the first one, which is saying something because I liked the first season a lot. But I re-watched the entire first season before jumping into this one just to refresh my memory, and season 2 had a lot more humor. 

I'm not sure how he could avoid picking the same children, though. He would have no idea which is which when they are newborns. Their powers aren't apparent yet at that point.

I know, right? I was like "since when does he have that power?" Apparently there were a few earlier scenes suggesting it but the show did not make that clear. Perhaps there were some deleted scenes that did.

I had the same thought re: the children.   He has no way to know which place he got the Umbrella Academy.   Sure,  he could just skip Russia and Germany because of Klaus and Vanya, did he also just say pass to Latin America because of Diego?  Skip all black girls entirely because of Allison?  For someone who wanted all the kids but only found seven,  it really doesn't seem like he had the ability to be picky about it. 

But hey, maybe the audience will be in for a shock and it's the same kids and Reginald actually chose to change his parenting style and not be traumatizing instead of changing his children and being a dick in new ways. 

[Guest]

7 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I suspect that Diego’s powers might not be so much accuracy like we thought (like throwing knives) as much as some kind of low level telekinesis where he can control where things go when they are thrown or shot, so he can do things like make bullets stop in midair. I feel like, especially after the big season opener where the siblings fought the USSR in the first timeline, that they all have way more potential and are way more powerful than they think they are. Probably because Reggie is an awful teacher and father, so they never reached the full potential of their powers. 

In the first season it’s said that he can curve any object is throws. He just prefers knives. That seems to have evolved to the ability to alter the trajectory of any moving object.  

I think the problem is the show is so dense and with very little exposition that it is easy to miss those details. Most of the answers are there but they fly by very quickly.

Plus they really favor showing the powers in a very stylized way that makes it very hard to see what is actually happening. In the opener I had to watch Diego’s part multiple times to pick up that he sending the bullets back at the shooters. 

[methodwriter85]

3 hours ago, Delphi said:

I had the same thought re: the children.   He has no way to know which place he got the Umbrella Academy.   Sure,  he could just skip Russia and Germany because of Klaus and Vanya, did he also just say pass to Latin America because of Diego?  Skip all black girls entirely because of Allison?  For someone who wanted all the kids but only found seven,  it really doesn't seem like he had the ability to be picky about it. 

But hey, maybe the audience will be in for a shock and it's the same kids and Reginald actually chose to change his parenting style and not be traumatizing instead of changing his children and being a dick in new ways. 

If that was true though shouldn't EmoBen have recognized them?

[iMonrey]

Quote

Sure,  he could just skip Russia and Germany because of Klaus and Vanya, did he also just say pass to Latin America because of Diego?

They didn't even have those names at birth anyway. Reginald only ever referred to them as numbers. I got the impression they gave themselves those names when they walked away from their superhero lives. And it seems unlikely Reginald would have remembered all their names after only one quick meeting with them decades earlier.

Edited August 8, 2020 by iMonrey

[Jeopardy15]

On 8/3/2020 at 12:21 PM, blueray said:

I also am hoping that's it for the handler. I feel like she is also getting kind of old and the show needs a new villain. Which probably will be there next season.

Me too! I really need The Handler to be done. She was too power hungry and manipulated Lila. 

I hope Lila returns and joins Team Zero. She was good for Diego. 

Are we ever going to get an “adult” Five? I think the young actor who plays Five is great, but shouldn’t he be an adult by now??? 

So glad that Vanya was redeemed this season. I enjoyed seeing her relationship with Harlan. 

[Hanahope]

7 hours ago, iMonrey said:

They didn't even have those names at birth anyway. Reginald only ever referred to them as numbers. I got the impression they gave themselves those names when they walked away from their superhero lives. And it seems unlikely Reginald would have remembered all their names after only one quick meeting with them decades earlier.

I thought it was mother who gave them names, which is why 5 doesn’t have one.

[AnimeMania]

12 hours ago, iMonrey said:

And it seems unlikely Reginald would have remembered all their names after only one quick meeting with them decades earlier.

Reginald did take copious notes and if Reginald found their addresses, he had to know what their names were. Especially since he did a through background check on each one.

[Paloma]

10 hours ago, Hanahope said:

I thought it was mother who gave them names, which is why 5 doesn’t have one.

I'm not sure that makes sense. Weren't they about 13-14 when Five disappeared? It seems likely that "Mom" would have named them when they were younger, especially since she came into their lives almost a decade earlier (based on the age Vanya seemed to be when she killed the nannies). Even if she didn't name them immediately after coming into the home, giving them names would likely be part of the function of serving as an affectionate mother and therefore would have happened at a fairly young age. 

I don't remember which episode in season 1, but there was a scene where Mom was walking by their rooms when they were kids (maybe getting ready for a mission?) and saying encouraging things to a couple of them, including Diego and Vanya (she was playing the violin, not going on a mission). I'm pretty sure she called them by name, but I can't remember if 5 was in that scene--if he was, she didn't say anything to him so we still wouldn't know his name.

[peachmangosteen]

I thought for sure they said Grace named them, but yea that doesn't make sense because then Five would have a name. Unless they said Five just didn't want a name or something. Seems like him honestly lol.

Maybe all of them except five were already named before Hargreeves got them.

[chaifan]

15 hours ago, Jeopardy15 said:

Me too! I really need The Handler to be done. She was too power hungry and manipulated Lila. 

I hope Lila returns and joins Team Zero. She was good for Diego. 

Are we ever going to get an “adult” Five? I think the young actor who plays Five is great, but shouldn’t he be an adult by now??? 

So glad that Vanya was redeemed this season. I enjoyed seeing her relationship with Harlan. 

I'm done with the character of The Handler, but I so love Kate Walsh in this role I'm not sure I want the character to be done for good.  On the other hand, there's only so many times a character can die and then un-die, and that tends to bother me, so I guess I'd be ok with no more Handler.  Maybe Kate Walsh can guest star a few times in Lila based flashbacks...  I loved the "is this a swearing in or a coronation" outfit as shown in the first scene with Lila.  She looked like an older evil Elsa.  As more and more got added to it I kept thinking of Coco Chanel's mantra - take off one accessory!

And, speaking of Lila, I'm with everyone else hoping she returns.  I love the "mirror" power, and we only got a glimpse of that.

Five...  I am hoping they figure out a plausible time jump of 5+ years for him, so Aidan Gallagher can continue to play him but as an 18 year old.  I think he's 16, so they either have to really age up Five and replace him with an older actor, or incorporate a time jump so the character catches up with the actor's age.  I think it would be very hard to find an actor that could believably be Five (physical look, mannerisms, etc.) at the same age of the others.  Of course, if Season 3 production is held up like every other show, they may have to make the character 20! 

When Ben was disappearing with Vanya I said I wanted him to get his own spin off show.  Turns out Season 3 is my wish come true! 

[blueray]

They better keep the actor that plays 5. I think he does a good job with the role (and it would be hard to find someone else to do it). Honestly even the old guy couldn't get the same mannerisms that Aidan had established for the character. Plus as stupid as it is, I think it's the best I've seen off an actor dropping a "nickloden" image in there next role.

 

[Jenniferbug]

They definitely had names before Five disappeared. The bank robbery scene is before Five disappears and Ben is referred to by name. I believe some of the in universe magazine covers featuring the Umbrella Academy refer to them by name (except Five, even though he's present). I think it's Diego who says that their dad couldn't even be bothered to name them, and their mom did. Maybe she hadn't come up with the perfect name for Five yet? It really doesn't make sense that he doesn't have a name because he was clearly still around when the others were going by their names. 

[supposebly]

Well, that was thoroughly enjoyable. I liked season 1 but this one seemed to flow just better. The characters were a lot less of a mess which made them be more themselves. Luther is slowly breaking away from his number one status that he never should have been and just tags along and tries to help. Not always successfully. Vanya was a lot less downtrodden, Allison found herself a wonderful husband, Klaus was Klaus without all the booze and drugs, which makes him a lot easier to handle. Ben finally served a purpose and Klaus' relief when Vanya told him that it wasn't his fault that Ben stuck around was beautiful. I adore Five but it was interesting that even while it wasn't personal, being an assassin leaves damage behind that might bite you in the ass eventually. He is kind of a psychopath but I guess the clothes help with me not minding so much. Diego and his obsession with preventing the assassination of JFK was getting annoying. Still, I liked how he tricked Lila at the Commission and found out what breaks the world. So, finally more than just knives, bulletproof, and a pretty face.

They are finally breaking free from a terrible father. Well, he was an alien lizard, so being a human father might not have come easy to him. That speech at Ben's funeral was appalling. I do wonder why he was so upset over the assassination.

Love the idea that after meeting them and being thoroughly unimpressed, he found some other 'siblings' and possibly tried to be a better father, but still included Ben because he didn't know about him. I wonder if all the siblings are somehow Harlan's offspring? Not in the traditional biological way but in the making-women-pregnant-instantly-superpower kind of way?

Also loved the last remaining Swede to join the remains of Klaus' cult. Just perfect.

[Morrigan2575]

On 8/3/2020 at 8:08 PM, MisterGlass said:

ETA: I was caught off guard in this episode by Diego redirecting that cloud of bullets.  Up to this point I thought his power was about superior aim and agility

I can't be aim, his daggers do crazy turns. I assumed mild Telekinesis but, with the bullets I'm thinking magnetism.

i was so sad to see Ben go in episode 9, glad that he have a version of him around for S3. 

I looked that they all went with Vanya. 

Lila = Mimic. I don't particularly like her, I found her mostly irritating but, I did rather like her end scenes with Five and The Handler.

I'm guessing The Handler is dead for realz this time, damn I shall really miss her.

I loved Ray and the goodbye letter was beautiful. I really, really hope this was the end of Luthor/Allison. Just kill it, please.

 

 

[AnimeMania]

I would be hilarious if Five's real name is Fievel and Five is being used as a nickname.

[CailynA]

16 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

I would be hilarious if Five's real name is Fievel and Five is being used as a nickname.

this is now my new head canon!

[iMonrey]

Quote

I'm guessing The Handler is dead for realz this time, damn I shall really miss her.

Well they're in a different timeline now so anything is possible.

[MisterGlass]

On 8/7/2020 at 10:33 PM, Dani said:

hat seems to have evolved to the ability to alter the trajectory of any moving object.  

22 hours ago, Morrigan2575 said:

I can't be aim, his daggers do crazy turns. I assumed mild Telekinesis but, with the bullets I'm thinking magnetism.

It could be magnetic fields, but it does seem like it has to be moving.  He couldn't get the stationary tractor off his foot.

 

[phoenics]

I really enjoyed this season.  Loved nearly all of the characters and really loved that more characters had agency than just Five.  This season they all took control of their destiny for the most part - except Vanya, who I'll get to - and Luthor kinda.  The parts with Allison and her husband got to me on a visceral level - I got emotional when they and the other freedom fighters walked in to sit at the counter.  And Allison is way stronger than I am - I would've been rumoring every person in existence to end racism, lol.  Too bad she can't convert her voice into radio waves and mass rumor the world.  Tuh.

I loved Klaus' arc - he tried so hard to save Dave while running a cult (wtf).  Just perfect Klaus.  The future he was trying to prevent he helped cause.  Klaus is one of my favorite characters - literally he can't do anything wrong in my eyes.

Seeing Ben get some shine was good too - although it was GROSS when Klaus vomited him up, lol.  Hilarious, but GROSS.  So excited we get a saucy Ben in S3!!

Unlike some, I don't think Luthor and Allison have incest vibes - their upbringing was so weird that I just don't see them as problematic at all and even though I liked Allison and Ray, I think it's clear the show is still Team Author (Luthor's devastation over Allison marrying Ray, Allison/Luthor's hug in the kitchen, the scene where Luthor brings Allison back from being rumored - the kiss on the cheek makes sense since Allison is still technically married - Luthor is still very clearly in love with her - Allison is still in love with her husband).

Also - unpopular opinion - I don't see Vanya as being redeemed at all.  She spent 99% of the season in the dark about her sociopathic actions in S1 and never atoned for any of it.  Not really.  Her showing she can be paternal to an autistic child and fall in love don't change that - it's just the writers refusing to give her a real redemption arc.  Especially since she literally almost causes yet another apocalypse because she can't manage her emotions.  Maybe that was mostly Harlan being channeled through her though - but I felt her storyline (though parts were sweet - mostly Sissy and Harlan) was a copout so she didn't have to face her actions and then set her up to set off apocalypse 2.0.  That and Ellen Page is just not my favorite actress - she's utterly lifeless and the only emotion she seems to have other than blandness is petulance.  She's the weakest of the siblings for me and her portrayal just bugs me.  Even now when she's supposed to be unmedicated, Ellen Page still plays her dry as hell and looks constipated when she tries to emote.  Last season I thought that was a conscious choice.  This season, I realize Ellen Page is just not good.

I really am curious about Reggie.  What is he? Where did he come from?  Since he's "alien" - where was he when he was with his wife and the rockets were taking off and the jar of lights was released?  Why didn't he look "alien" there?  Has he gone to a ton of humanoid worlds and done stuff?  Are the children being born connected to the jar of lights?  Is the show ever gonna answer these questions?

I liked Lila and Diego.  Hopefully Lila will be back in S3.  I too was really surprised that she was one of them and her powers caught me way offguard.  I also realized I had kinda zoned out during her fight with Five, so I completely missed all the signs.  I thought Allison was dead for sure though.

I think the Handler is really dead. Well and truly dead.  Loved her outfits and I'm gonna miss those a LOT.

[Paloma]

21 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Especially since she literally almost causes yet another apocalypse because she can't manage her emotions. 

That was true in season 1, but in season 2 the cause was the drugging and torture of Vanya. I don't think she could be expected to "manage her emotions" in that situation, and she didn't even seem to know what she was doing (because she was hallucinating).

29 minutes ago, phoenics said:

I really am curious about Reggie.  What is he? Where did he come from?  Since he's "alien" - where was he when he was with his wife and the rockets were taking off and the jar of lights was released?  Why didn't he look "alien" there? 

I asked similar questions earlier (after the lizard reveal), and although I hope this will be addressed in season 3, I fear that this was an inconsistency in writing.

32 minutes ago, phoenics said:

I think the Handler is really dead. Well and truly dead.  Loved her outfits and I'm gonna miss those a LOT.

I hadn't thought of it until you said this, but she really is like the Wicked Witch. Maybe her assassins could be considered the flying monkeys. 

[DearEvette]

27 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Also - unpopular opinion - I don't see Vanya as being redeemed at all.  She spent 99% of the season in the dark about her sociopathic actions in S1 and never atoned for any of it.  Not really.  Her showing she can be paternal to an autistic child and fall in love don't change that - it's just the writers refusing to give her a real redemption arc.  Especially since she literally almost causes yet another apocalypse because she can't manage her emotions.  Maybe that was mostly Harlan being channeled through her though - but I felt her storyline (though parts were sweet - mostly Sissy and Harlan) was a copout so she didn't have to face her actions and then set her up to set off apocalypse 2.0.  That and Ellen Page is just not my favorite actress - she's utterly lifeless and the only emotion she seems to have other than blandness is petulance.  She's the weakest of the siblings for me and her portrayal just bugs me.  Even now when she's supposed to be unmedicated, Ellen Page still plays her dry as hell and looks constipated when she tries to emote.  Last season I thought that was a conscious choice.  This season, I realize Ellen Page is just not good.

You aren't alone there.  Of all the siblings, I have to list Vanya as my least favorite.  And that is saying something because I even grew  a soft spot for Luther this season.

As I watched season one, I wasn't thrilled about Vanya.  Season 1 was fun but it emphasized  plot over characters.  I like this season so much better because we got more character than plot.  And even as I started to really vibe with the siblings I was very meh about in season 1 (Luther, Diego),  I still couldn't get over the hump with Vanya overmuch.

I think my S1 feelings about Vanya stem from the fact that she was clearly being set up as the Special One.  And I have a knee jerk reaction against characters like that because narratively we've been conditioned to root for the Special One and they  are given a lot of plot armor.  In Vanya's case it came in the guise of  a victim edit for her as the left out child culminating in her siblings locking her in a basement dungeon.  So we already have our pre-primed and therefore pre-forgiven explanation of what makes her break bad in the end.   And I agree she really isn't given a real redemption arc just a lot of cushioning and a more plot armor (amnesia, sympathetic forbidden love, FBI torture) to keep her sympathetic.  I also think some of my remove might also be Ellen Page.  I don't have quite the harsh view of her, but she really is the least compelling of the actors on the screen.  And again, that is saying something because Tom Hopper is not given a lot to work with as Luther, but his comic timing this season (along with his continued pathos toward Allison) really elevated Luther above his material.

 

[Chaos Theory]

Ghost age because actors age.   You have to accept it the same way you have to accept immortals age like Jack Harkness.  The show may explain it in cannon as “one of those things” but you just gotta kind of let it go.  
 

As for Harlan and his powers I don’t think to much of the sign out of town.   I think it was more Sissy and Harlan riding off into the sunset sort of allusion.    I don’t think it was meant as anything deeper then that.     As for Harlan having powers....who knows. My personal opinion was that original history had him dying young in the lake so he was a non issue.  But now that he survives into adulthood with his mother being a stronger happier person and Vanya once /twice saving his life and even maybe his soul he maybe remembers her and is there to help her in the future just like dear old dad.  He remembers.....

Edited August 11, 2020 by Chaos Theory

[questionfear]

I finished binging last night and it hit me-what if the robot mom in the Sparrow Academy isn't modeled after Grace, but Sissy? We know Harlan has some connection due to the spinning sparrow at the end, and it would be a major punch in the gut to Vanya if she "found" Sissy after all that time but Sissy was now an android mom. Plus with Diego driving off Grace in the 1960s, it would fit that Reginald would need a new mother figure to model his android after...

[chaifan]

13 hours ago, phoenics said:

Also - unpopular opinion - I don't see Vanya as being redeemed at all.  She spent 99% of the season in the dark about her sociopathic actions in S1 and never atoned for any of it.  Not really.  Her showing she can be paternal to an autistic child and fall in love don't change that - it's just the writers refusing to give her a real redemption arc.

I personally don't think Vanya needed a "redemption" arc.  Yes, she caused the destruction of the world in Season 1, but it was because no one taught her how to control her powers.  That's not her fault.  In Season 2, she's clearly learned how to control her powers.  She wiped out a field full of Commission agents with no collateral damage to anyone else.  As Paloma pointed out above, the near explosion in the FBI building was also not her fault, as she was drugged and tortured.  All other times she used her powers in Season 2 it was well controlled.  I don't think she needs to atone for actions that she had no control over, due to no fault of her own.  So I see Vanya's arc as more of a learning/discovery arc, not an attempt at a redemption arc, and I think it worked well for the character.

[iMonrey]

Quote

I don't see Vanya as being redeemed at all.  She spent 99% of the season in the dark about her sociopathic actions in S1 and never atoned for any of it.  Not really.  Her showing she can be paternal to an autistic child and fall in love don't change that - it's just the writers refusing to give her a real redemption arc.  Especially since she literally almost causes yet another apocalypse because she can't manage her emotions.  Maybe that was mostly Harlan being channeled through her though - but I felt her storyline (though parts were sweet - mostly Sissy and Harlan) was a copout so she didn't have to face her actions and then set her up to set off apocalypse 2.0. 

First of all, I agree the amnesia story was a huge cop-out. But second of all, it occurs to me that Reginald might have been right to wipe her memory and suppress her powers. She was showing sociopathic tendencies as a child in killing all those nannies and not really being affected by it (at best) or possibly even enjoying it (at worst). Sort of a like when a child takes pleasure from harming animals - it's a huge warning sign. 

I didn't really really think what happened at the end of Season 1 was entirely her fault because it seemed like her powers just sort of took control of her and she didn't even know what she was doing by that time. But going all the way back to her childhood it does seem like she might have had some mental issues that made her too dangerous to have powers.

[moonorchid]

1 hour ago, chaifan said:

I personally don't think Vanya needed a "redemption" arc.  Yes, she caused the destruction of the world in Season 1, but it was because no one taught her how to control her powers.  That's not her fault.  In Season 2, she's clearly learned how to control her powers.  She wiped out a field full of Commission agents with no collateral damage to anyone else.  As Paloma pointed out above, the near explosion in the FBI building was also not her fault, as she was drugged and tortured.  All other times she used her powers in Season 2 it was well controlled.  I don't think she needs to atone for actions that she had no control over, due to no fault of her own.  So I see Vanya's arc as more of a learning/discovery arc, not an attempt at a redemption arc, and I think it worked well for the character.

This is where I’m at too. I never actually considered that she needed “redemption”. Last season she was manipulated by her boyfriend and found out that her sister “betrayed” her and then her siblings locked her in a vault. And this season once she did remember everything she felt a lot of guilt and remorse for her actions to the point she wanted to die. 
 

I may be the minority but I enjoyed vanyas story this season. 
 

Prob the one I enjoyed the least was Klaus. Except for getting sober (and then falling off the wagon) he ended the season kind of how he started it.

[Morrigan2575]

2 hours ago, moonorchid said:

This is where I’m at too. I never actually considered that she needed “redemption”. Last season she was manipulated by her boyfriend and found out that her sister “betrayed” her and then her siblings locked her in a vault. And this season once she did remember everything she felt a lot of guilt and remorse for her actions to the point she wanted to die. 
 

I may be the minority but I enjoyed vanyas story this season. 

I don't think you're in the minority but, if you are I'm right there with you. 

[phoenics]

On 8/11/2020 at 9:34 AM, chaifan said:

I personally don't think Vanya needed a "redemption" arc.  Yes, she caused the destruction of the world in Season 1, but it was because no one taught her how to control her powers.  That's not her fault.  In Season 2, she's clearly learned how to control her powers.  She wiped out a field full of Commission agents with no collateral damage to anyone else.  As Paloma pointed out above, the near explosion in the FBI building was also not her fault, as she was drugged and tortured.  All other times she used her powers in Season 2 it was well controlled.  I don't think she needs to atone for actions that she had no control over, due to no fault of her own.  So I see Vanya's arc as more of a learning/discovery arc, not an attempt at a redemption arc, and I think it worked well for the character.

I disagree with this - she was intentionally vicious on the way to the concert, just killing innocent people who had done nothing to her for no reason.  She also kept killing the nannies too - her powers have zip to do with knowing whether killing is right or wrong - and when she was offing actual, real, human nannies, she did that with nearly zero emotion.  The only time she looked remorseful about her murderous rampages was when she nearly killed Allison - that's the only one I could almost forgive because she lashed out in a fit of rage.  The rest?  No, she's a murderous sociopath.

She DESPERATELY needs a redemption arc.

On 8/11/2020 at 11:02 AM, iMonrey said:

First of all, I agree the amnesia story was a huge cop-out. But second of all, it occurs to me that Reginald might have been right to wipe her memory and suppress her powers. She was showing sociopathic tendencies as a child in killing all those nannies and not really being affected by it (at best) or possibly even enjoying it (at worst). Sort of a like when a child takes pleasure from harming animals - it's a huge warning sign. 

I didn't really really think what happened at the end of Season 1 was entirely her fault because it seemed like her powers just sort of took control of her and she didn't even know what she was doing by that time. But going all the way back to her childhood it does seem like she might have had some mental issues that made her too dangerous to have powers.

But see this is the part where she really DOES need a redemption arc.  There is nothing that can justify how sociopathic she was to those nannies - and she looked the same as she mowed down innocent people on the way into the concert hall.  I think in S2 we could argue that she had no control (but wanted to) in the FBI building - but in S1, she just didn't care - she hurt whoever she could and whoever even stepped near her path, including completely innocent bystanders.  She basically went all Dark Phoenix - but DP at least DIED in the end to make up for all the destruction, death and awfulness.  Vanya just gets amnesia plot armor and 2 sympathetic characters to "redeem" her rather than her facing any consequences personally.  She never even had to deal with Sissy and Harlan knowing what she did in the other timeline.  Nothing happened to force her to face that with any real consequence because everyone just insta-forgave her once they realized she had amnesia.

A redemption arc means she suffers CONSEQUENCES for what she did.  She suffered nothing of the sort.

I don't get the free pass for Vanya at all. She deserves to spend an entire season working to get the trust of her siblings back - and instead they groveled to her.  If I was Allison I would never feel safe around her.  Hell - losing a game of monopoly could lead to her losing it and killing everyone in sight.

And even with that - her behavior to try to bring Sissy and Harlan with her, ignoring possible damage - to boot, Vanya is supremely selfish.  The scenes where she's whining about that to Five just annoy the hell out of me.

I can tolerate her on the show, but I don't enjoy watching her because of all of the excuses the writing makes for her and the lack of redemption.

[Chaos Theory]

I never thought Vanya was a sociopath.  She was a child who had powers she couldn’t control.  If we are judging people on what they did as children; I for one should be in prison all of which happened before I was 12.     Also Vanya’s father instilled a campaign of neglect against Vanya that her brothers and sister emulated though adulthood.   So yes I can see them at least acknowledging their part in it.   I am not saying Vanya is some innocent bystander but her season one story was so interesting to me because I could see how an angry neglected child could act out the way she did and season 2 how it could have all been different for her if someone had just given her a hug. That is what her story essentially was.  Remove all her baggage and it shows that no Vanya has no need to kill anyone.  As a matter of fact the exact opposite is true.   She will use her powers to protect anyone she loves.  That itself proves she isn’t a sociopath.

if her family made her beg for forgiveness that would just reinforce all wounds.  I did like the scene between her and Diego though.  He acknowledged that the last time he saw her she was blowing up the world and he might need a minute.   She apologized even though she didn’t remember.  He accepted.  Anything more would seem petty. I

 

Edited August 11, 2020 by Chaos Theory