S01.E08: A Mad Tea-Party

[Trini]

Quote

Kate and Alice continue their sister/nemesis dance, while Alice and Mouse (guest star Sam Littlefield) construct their most evil plan yet. Mary invites Kate to a special event honoring Catherine and Jacob makes a decision that leaves Kate perplexed.

Holly Dale directed the episode written by Nancy Kiu.

Airdate: 12/1/2019

[scarynikki12]

I enjoy you Alice but don’t go insulting my Mary. 

It’s a little thing but I’m delighted that Mary had her arms straight and at a ninety degree angle as she did the chest compressions on Katherine. Characters have bent arms and are off to the side almost exclusively, even on medical shows, so this is a nice change. 

RIP Katherine. I wish you would stick around longer. 

[memememe76]

I am not a Gotham person, I don’t care for the cool villains. So, I am on Mary’s side and will at some point stop watching the show when Mary and Alice inevitably become besties.

I love Mary.

[Josh371982]

God Alice drives me nuts. So angry at Jacob and Kate for something not their fault but not her "Brother" who helped KEEP HER THERE!!! ITS HIS FAULT NOT THEIRS!!! Shocked they killed Katherine off. I've heard of a Batwoman story where Alice is Beth's alter. Maybe they go with that on the show. I'm still not understanding how Bitch ass Mouse gets off scot free when he did Jack shit to help Beth get back to her family. Hes fucking selfish and helped his evil father keep her there

Just now, Josh371982 said:

God Alice drives me nuts. So angry at Jacob and Kate for something not their fault but not her "Brother" who helped KEEP HER THERE!!! ITS HIS FAULT NOT THEIRS!!! Shocked they killed Katherine off. I've heard of a Batwoman story where Alice is Beth's alter. Maybe they go with that on the show. I'm still not understanding how Bitch ass Mouse gets off scot free when he did Jack shit to help Beth get back to her family. Hes fucking selfish and helped his evil father keep her there. Also WHY THE FUCK IS MARY NOT CLEARING JACOB OF MURDER?

3 minutes ago, memememe76 said:

I am not a Gotham person, I don’t care for the cool villains. So, I am on Mary’s side and will at some point stop watching the show when Mary and Alice inevitably become besties.

I love Mary.

Considering Alice killed her mother I seriously doubt that 

[bettername2come]

Mary actress is really fantastic. This character could be so annoying in a lesser actor's hands. 

It seemed like an intense way to leave off before the crossover.

[UNOSEZ]

Oof... That was a gut punch... 

[quarks]

Wild, if SLIGHTLY PREPOSTEROUS ride, but I have questions:

1. Does Berlanti get some sort of rental discount for that theatre and its staircase? I mean, not that I exactly mind having it show up at least twice per season with these shows - no, I'm lying. I mind. 

2. Glad to see that Alice has ended up in Arrow's second favorite warehouse, though, in the proud tradition of Flash, Legends of Tomorrow, and Supergirl! 

3. See, Oliver, when I told you back in Arrow's first season that you should give that tea to Queen Consolidated's science department so that they could ensure that this miraculous cure was available, I WAS RIGHT.

I mean, I guess it's kinda something that the failure of a then-billionaire to ensure that a universal cure for neurotoxin poisoning would be, well, universally and easily available leads directly to the death of another billionaire, but, OLIVER.

4. Though now that I think about it, it's quite possible that before Oliver DID hand the tea over to Queen Consolidated/Palmer Tech, and then, Barry changed the timeline.

5. Speaking of that Lian Yu tea, how, exactly, did Alice get it? 

Oh, right. She's a villain, and villains just walk in and out of the Arrowcave all the time.

Never mind.

6. Who would have thought I would have used that ongoing issue on Arrow to answer a question about Batwoman?

7. Will Mary try to replicate that tea or find out about Lian Yu?

8. Speaking of Mary, well, Alice, I WAS liking you (and your FABULOUS choice of outfits) until you said MEAN THINGS ABOUT MARY. Mary is OFF LIMITS and not just because she's your stepsister, though, that too.

9. Is Kate going to be able to focus on saving the multiverse next week after all this?

10. Who inherits Catherine's company? Mary or Jacob? And what twist will that create?

[UNOSEZ]

3 minutes ago, quarks said:

Is Kate going to be able to focus on saving the multiverse next week after all this?

I thought that was the finale for the winter... I won't lie I dunno how all this lines up.. Because this show's 1st episode was before the elseworlds crossover so I dunno if its lined up at all yet

[Lantern7]

I can imagine Kate on a rooftop, praying for walls of antimatter to wipe everything away. Meanwhile, the Monitor is chilling out wherever he lives, grousing about how people will probably blame him for being behind all of the brutal feels.

Tonight was friggin' painful. Sure, Alice clinches her place as one of the better Arrowverse Big Bads, but she might have gone too far too fast. Not with all the death . .  she called Mary -- IIRC -- a "vapid run-on sentence." DAMN.  Meanwhile, Catherine basically falls out of a tree to her death, but she winds up hitting every painful branch on the way down. Even with the lie about Beth, it's hard to not feel sorry for her. She did give us Mary, so maybe she's wasn't all bad.

[mtlchick]

26 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

I thought that was the finale for the winter... I won't lie I dunno how all this lines up.. Because this show's 1st episode was before the elseworlds crossover so I dunno if its lined up at all yet

After episode 4, it is line with the current timeline of events. 

Bye Catherine.  I'm sure you loved Jacob and Mary but giiiiirl, you did some shady stuff.   Weird place to leave Kate et al leading into Crisis though. 

[quarks]

27 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

I thought that was the finale for the winter... I won't lie I dunno how all this lines up.. Because this show's 1st episode was before the elseworlds crossover so I dunno if its lined up at all yet

(nods) Yeah, the timing is tricky - the first four episodes occur before the Elseworlds crossover; the fifth episode, "Mine Is a Long and Sad Tale," occurs at about the same time as the Elseworlds crossover. (The Arkham Asylum breakout referred to in the script for that episode is the breakout that happened in the Elseworlds crossover.)

Which would mean that the last three episodes (6, 7, and 8 ) have occurred over the past several months, something that does match one throwaway line from this episode, when Fake Jacob said he'd been meeting up with Catherine post the "yeah, kinda lied about the skeleton reveal" thing for several weeks. However, that was Fake Jacob, so I'm not sure we were supposed to believe this, and, also, I kinda feel that Kate and Mary should have made more progress on that club if several weeks have passed between "Tell Me the Truth" and this episode, but maybe if you're Batwoman you just don't have time to hire contractors. 

[possibilities]

My big takeaway is that Kate and Beth are Jewish (they had bat mitzahs). I think it's hilarious to hear Batwoman talk about her Bat Mitzvah. I wonder what her torah portion was.

[Trini]

😭  Ugh, too soon to be killing off regulars and family members that we barely know! 😭 😭

More thoughts later....

[thuganomics85]

Listen here, Alice!  I can live with your crazy, murderous ways, even though Kate and Jacob don't deserve it, because, hey, you've been through some shit and a comic book villain has to comic book villain, right?  But if you ever dare call Mary vapid again or sling another insult at her, we will have major, major problems, dammit!

Surprised they actually already killed Catherine since we're only eight episodes in, so we still never really got to know her that much: not to mention Elizabeth Anweis being a regular and all.  But I guess it was for shock value, and to a) give Mary more stakes for what is to come and b) for Kate to accept that maybe she is wrong that Beth is still in there.

Even though Jacob is innocent, I feel bad for any DA or prosecutor here, because if/when he is set free, every criminal and defense attorney worth their salt is going to use the "It wasn't me, it was someone who stole my face!" defense.  Man, what I would give to have Saul Goodman in Gotham!

I have to imagine there is going to be more to this Dr. Campbell character that introduced Catherine at the ceremony, since he's being played by Sebastian Roche.

Sorry, Sophie and Tyler, but your current relationship problems really pale to... well, everything else that is going on right now.

Honestly, Crisis is probably going to be a nice diversion for Kate.  A little intergalactic break, before she has to come back and deal with the chaos her life has no doubt become now.

[Dream Boy]

Man, Catherine was shady but what a fucked up way to die. And poor Mary having to witness it all and know that she died to save her. I love Alice but I agree that she truly went over the edge here. I’m hoping that Jacob and Kate bring her down hard. 
 

Oh and Tyler and Sophie? Shut up. 

[bettername2come]

10 hours ago, possibilities said:

My big takeaway is that Kate and Beth are Jewish (they had bat mitzahs). I think it's hilarious to hear Batwoman talk about her Bat Mitzvah. I wonder what her torah portion was.

Them being Jewish had come up before when Alice had said something about a violin piece to her father. Can't remember the details. But I've been wondering if Batman's Jewish in this universe too. Can't imagine he is normally or a Bar Mitzvah totally would've been a plot point on Gotham season 1.

[Primal Slayer]

Killing off Catherine was weak since I feel like it was supposed to have an emotional impact on us and the characters but I didnt....apart from Mary feeling the pain of losing her mother, I felt nothing and everyone else in the show didn't seem to feel anything. 

[Loandbehold]

I love Mary as much as the next person, but let's not forget that to all but a few people (and now one less), she is this vapid Instagram-influencer. The rich dilettante of two of Gotham's largest and most important citizens. There's no reason for Alice to think any differently of Mary than the other 1 million Gothamites.

I enjoyed Alice's smackdown of Kate's righteous anger earlier in the episode. Came down to, not only did she remove the device from the gun that can penetrate the Batsuit, but she had killed all the scientists who could replicate it. You're welcome Batgirl! Twisted, but effective argument.

Poor Mary. Watching mom die, especially in that manner. Kate may be the last person that should be trying to comfort you, but I'm right here if you need to talk.

[possibilities]

3 hours ago, bettername2come said:

I've been wondering if Batman's Jewish in this universe too.

Is he related to Kate/Beth on her mother's side, or her father's? It could be that mom was Jewish but Dad isn't, since Judaism is passed on through the mother's lineage.

I realize I'm taking this way too seriously, but it's funny because of the "bat" element.

[tennisgurl]

If the Kanes are Jewish, that would presumably mean that Bruce is Jewish on his moms side, and Judaism is passed on from the maternal side, so that means we missed out on what would have certainly have been a ridiculously nuts Bar Mitzvah episode on Gotham! 

That was a seriously intense episode, I love Alice as a villain and have felt pretty sorry for her, but she has really gone too far here, especially for Kate and Jacob. Catherine is pretty shady, but I am sad to see her go so early, especially for Mary having to lose her mother that way. No wonder she was so hurt and heartbroken, and while I dont blame her for not wanting to see Kate right now, I hope she can find someone who can give her a hug. Also, Alice dissing Mary was crossing the line! You talk shit about Mary, those are fighting words!

I dont know if Kate will struggle with focusing on the Crisis with everything going on, or will welcome the diversion from the absolute clusterfuck that her life has quickly become. Of course will Crisis coming, who knows how that will affect what has happened here!

I love that Kate caught on almost right away that her dad was an impostor, that was nice to see. "My dad is being really weird I wonder why he is acting so out of character...and I have this new enemy who can change his face...WAIT A MINUTE!" which is a nice change from people taking forever to figure out the blindingly obvious on a lot of shows, even if the character is supposed to be smart. Not much Luke this week, but maybe he can give Mary that hug, they seemed pretty chummy a few weeks ago? 

[AnimeMania]

I think Mary should have given the antidote to her mother, her mother was so weak, she couldn't have stopped her. The story would have been so much stronger with Mary dead. Catherine could have used her vast fortune and weapon knowledge to build new weapons for Batwoman. Papa Kane could have offered his vast army to support Batwoman in cleaning up the city. This could have really revitalized the effort to clean up Gotham City for everybody, not just the rich.

[Lady Calypso]

I feel so, so bad for Mary. She just lost her mother in a horrific way so I can't blame her for being angry right now. And rightfully so, since Alice did something horrific. It's good that Kate and Jacob are both realizing that Beth, for now, is not in there. Alice is a full villain and she did something that ruined their family. I know, eventually, Alice will work her way back into redemption but for now, it works well that they're done with her.

Kate was being way too trusting of Alice, anyway. She may be biologically her sister, but she hasn't been her sister in other ways for 15 years.

Killing off Catherine in general didn't make me feel anything. She was a character who wasn't used...pretty much at all. She was only used as a plot device so her death didn't make me feel anything for her. It just made me sad for Mary.

Meh to Tyler/Sophie. 

Jacob has been arrested but how hard is it for them to figure out that it really wasn't Jacob? I guess Mary will be too angry to vouch for her stepfather, but she knows the truth and was there for Alice's confession, so really, Mary telling the cops should have Jacob freed as a suspect. 

[Maverick]

 The timeline is still wonky because there's no way they've covered a year in the past few episodes.  Given the way things ended, there may be a time jump when they return with Jacob being jail a few months and Alice underground.  

 Alice is more compelling than Kate unfortunately and I don't know what the show will do when she's eventually captured.  

 Sophie's drama was out of place.   Focus on your job not your shit. 

[CletusMusashi]

Catherine was a pretty shifty character. I actually think that a lot of what Alice was making her confess to was pretty on the nose. Of course, Alice pretending to be offended by bad people is pretty hypocritical. But being a hypocrite does not inherently make you factually incorrect. So I wouldn't be too shaken up by Catherine's death, except for how hard it is on Mary, who is so great that I think they should probably change the title from "Batwoman" to "Mary and Her Batshit Step-Sisters." I mean, it was really awkward, how badly I wanted to reach through the screen and give that poor fictional character a hug.

You know, 'cause that's what hot young socialite women with medical degrees usually want right after having to make the hardest choice of their life and watching their mother die. Some creepy old bald guy from Cleveland to pop through the fourth wall and try to squeeze the sadness out of them.

I did appreciate the point that, okay, Kate is mad at Cate (I will not miss keeping those spellings straight! It's even worse than Tyrion and Tywin,) for doing one particular really bad thing, but Alice tortures and kills people almost every day and keeps getting a quazillion second chances.

Maybe the big crossover event will be the heroes all getting swapped around until they are all based in towns where they do not have awkward close personal relationships with the main villains.

[Featherhat]

Poor Mary, the Arrowverse loves killing parents off in front of their kids in the worst ways. I'm not really sad she's gone, we didn't really have the chance to get to know her beyond the shady stuff, unlike Moira Queen. I guess it's possible COIE could reset some things but for drama and where we go with Alice and what Kate and Jacob think of her, it will probably stay.

Obviously there's probably still going to be a lot of messing around with potential redemption (it is a child of Arrow after all) but hopefully not for a while with this. Mary has a right to be completely angry but I think she will step up with Jacob. Kate semi understandably has been leaning hard on the "she's my twin sister" and far too trusting. Though at least Alice really is Beth and not someone from the multiverse or a glorified sperm donor. Still side eying you Arrow.

I think I read Kate was always Jewish in the comics whereas it's not mentioned for Bruce or he isn't. In that case it could be Kate and Beth's mother that was Jewish and their Dad not meaning that Martha wasn't and therefore Bruce isn't. Or the Wayne's decided to not raise him Jewish despite it being "automatic" matrilineal (seriously I have a friend who has to explain that no he's a practicing Catholic to his mother's Jewish family every time he sees them because they can't accept that's what his parents decided). Or maybe in this universe we'll find out he is.

Tyler/Sophie. I'm not interested in her and Kate so I'm definitely not interested in their marital woes.

With the timeline I'm just going to have to handwave it because I know they've said how it lines up with Elseworlds and now COIE it certainly doesn't feel like over a year has gone by on the show, the characters still feel very new at the new superheroing and their relationships haven't grown and changed that much, but that's always a problem with big time jumps. It's possible COIE WILL move things around as well.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Featherhat

[Rushmoras]

Well, I still have no clue what use is going to be Batwoman for everyone in Crisis on Infinite Earths. IMO, any meta-human could one-punch her lights out. But, OK...

On topic, so far, for me the season is kinda forgettable. It sure ain't no Gotham, even though, the tone is kinda similar to it, but the stakes are... well... low (apart from quasi-main cast member being written off in the latest episode). No real suspense or anything. It just is.

Edited December 3, 2019 by Rushmoras

[Josh371982]

6 hours ago, Maverick said:

 The timeline is still wonky because there's no way they've covered a year in the past few episodes.  Given the way things ended, there may be a time jump when they return with Jacob being jail a few months and Alice underground.  

 Alice is more compelling than Kate unfortunately and I don't know what the show will do when she's eventually captured.  

 Sophie's drama was out of place.   Focus on your job not your shit. 

I'm sorry but Mary fucking sucks if she lets Jacob stay in Jail for something he didnt do. It's not his fault Katherine is dead she knows Mouse and Alice are responsible. 

[Loandbehold]

13 hours ago, Lady Calypso said:

Jacob has been arrested but how hard is it for them to figure out that it really wasn't Jacob? I guess Mary will be too angry to vouch for her stepfather, but she knows the truth and was there for Alice's confession, so really, Mary telling the cops should have Jacob freed as a suspect. 

Not so sure about this. Jacob is Mary's (step-)father. She just lost her mother. The police could look at any statement that he didn't do it to be Mary trying not to lose both parents and willing to say anything to protect her remaining parent. 

10 hours ago, CletusMusashi said:

I think they should probably change the title from "Batwoman" to "Mary and Her Batshit Step-Sisters."

Seconded.

[Trini]

Amazing how National City, Midway City, and Gotham all have the same opera house!

I can see why they decided to kill off Catherine - least developed character, it was for Mary's pain, to cause more sister drama - but I feel it was too soon (if they should have done it at all), we hardly knew much about her and nothing about her relationship with Kate.

And Mary's the "fun" character; she's not going to be fun mourning her mother. There's enough grimdark as it is.

I am glad we got some more perspective on Sophie, but that seems the only reason for Tyler's existence. But they could do this in other ways?

So now Alice has heard apologies from Kate, Jacob, and Catherine for what happened to her (whether it was their fault or not). I don't think she can expect more than that, so team 'good guys' shouldn't have any hesitation with taking her down at their next confrontation.

... But on the other hand, I still think the sister/enemy relationship between Kate and Alice is really interesting.

Edited December 5, 2019 by Trini

[Cranberry]

Catherine was a regular? Hm. Any chance of a version of her from one of the other Earths taking her place when we (presumably) end up with a single Earth in the crisis?

I liked Tyler and Sophie's last scene; I thought he was quite understanding and reasonable for someone whose wife lied to him for years. Their earlier scene, though, where Sophie slowly untied him as they discussed their relationship? These two are too professional for that. Time was of the essence!

This show needs to stop making Kate cry, because Ruby Rose is not good at it.

Mary, though... that actress can do no wrong. That character can do no wrong. I hope she's let in on Kate's secret and made a full member of the team soon, because she needs a family.

[Featherhat]

42 minutes ago, Cranberry said:

I liked Tyler and Sophie's last scene; I thought he was quite understanding and reasonable for someone whose wife lied to him for years. Their earlier scene, though, where Sophie slowly untied him as they discussed their relationship? These two are too professional for that. Time was of the essence!

I liked the end scene as well with the "if you love me you'll level with me" type line. I don't think Sophie actually is *in* love with him and he knows it and I'm already not here for a back half dedicated to this triangle with Kate, even if Sophie's background goes some way to explaining why she did it, it's still not enough to make me root for them getting together. 

I am hoping that unlike Tommy and Eddie he lives and gets a chance to find the life he described with a woman who wants that as well, that would be a change. 

Mary needs to be read in to the secret ASAP please. 

[joanne3482]

On 12/2/2019 at 3:51 PM, AnimeMania said:

I think Mary should have given the antidote to her mother, her mother was so weak, she couldn't have stopped her. The story would have been so much stronger with Mary dead. Catherine could have used her vast fortune and weapon knowledge to build new weapons for Batwoman. Papa Kane could have offered his vast army to support Batwoman in cleaning up the city. This could have really revitalized the effort to clean up Gotham City for everybody, not just the rich.

It would also be interesting to see how Catherine responded to basically what she read once she was no longer under threat of Alice. How would she, and her company, clean up the mess that was made.  And the weight of Kate's guilt. How her biological sister killed her actual sister. So much bitterness abound.

Slightly off topic, I'm not a watcher of any of the other DC shows on CW. Do y'all think I'm going to need to watch the crossover episodes to keep up with what happens in Batwoman or will the crossover event be a stand alone? 

[AnimeMania]

1 minute ago, joanne3482 said:

Slightly off topic, I'm not a watcher of any of the other DC shows on CW. Do y'all think I'm going to need to watch the crossover episodes to keep up with what happens in Batwoman or will the crossover event be a stand alone? 

I believe the crossover will have zero effect on the Batwoman series, although I think Batwoman will be in the crossover.

[jmonique]

Man, this show really just deflates whenever Ruby Rose's uber-flat voiceovers take over. Her deranged twin sister just killed their stepmother, and the closing narration was just ... there. She might as well have been telling "Bruce" about getting a flat tire during rush hour, for all the emotion she injected into the monologue. 

Beyond that, I join in with those who don't get Alice's malice toward her biological family, and coddling of the very man who could have freed her daily for 11 years, but didn't want to because then he would have been lonely?

[Featherhat]

On 12/2/2019 at 9:51 PM, AnimeMania said:

I think Mary should have given the antidote to her mother, her mother was so weak, she couldn't have stopped her. The story would have been so much stronger with Mary dead. Catherine could have used her vast fortune and weapon knowledge to build new weapons for Batwoman. Papa Kane could have offered his vast army to support Batwoman in cleaning up the city. This could have really revitalized the effort to clean up Gotham City for everybody, not just the rich.

I can see that Mary dying instead of Catherine would have been unexpected and shocking but I wouldn't have continued to watch and they'd have lost their breakout character after 8 episodes so I'm glad they didn't. It would have been pretty cruel although obviously selfless for Mary to force that on a woman who was saying Mary was the one thing in her life she did right Mary knew (as did Alice) that for her there was no choice to make. And I don't think it would have developed in to Step-Ma and Pa Hamilton Kane being Team Batwoman, especially under those circumstances.

And the purpose of a "hero's journey" is to step out of the shadow of your parents/mentor and find your own way, hence why so many get killed off for "growth" bonus points for just admitting you know "The Secret" right beforehand. I really can't imagine either character as sidekicks or partners to Kate, even if Jacob does eventually find out and not immediately die. 

Edited December 5, 2019 by Featherhat

[Simba122504]

On 12/1/2019 at 8:09 PM, Josh371982 said:

God Alice drives me nuts. So angry at Jacob and Kate for something not their fault but not her "Brother" who helped KEEP HER THERE!!! ITS HIS FAULT NOT THEIRS!!! Shocked they killed Katherine off. I've heard of a Batwoman story where Alice is Beth's alter. Maybe they go with that on the show. I'm still not understanding how Bitch ass Mouse gets off scot free when he did Jack shit to help Beth get back to her family. Hes fucking selfish and helped his evil father keep her there

Considering Alice killed her mother I seriously doubt that 

How old was he back then? And what was he supposed to do? His father didn’t turn that way over night. You don’t think his own son was afraid and brainwashed by him? And you think kids on average want their parents to go to jail? Especially when it’s a single parent. Many parents are criminals and none of their children did anything about it. He’s not responsible for his father’s actions. Catherine faked a whole death and did other rich people crimes but Mary still loved her to death because that was her mama. I remember a real life murder case where the son didn’t rat out his father until he[the father] pissed him off. A woman who killed one of her children and hid her body in the freezer. Her other children didn’t do anything because they were afraid of her too. I think her son eventually reported her abuse but the sister was dead for over a year and she was abusing those children for years. Years of abuse is very common.  Kids have to build up the courage to turn parents in. So, no, Mouse wasn’t going to report his own father who already had him brainwashed too. Who was the only parent he had. Even if they try to throw that in, it would go against the harsh reality. 

Edited December 6, 2019 by Simba122504
Fixed typos

[AnimeMania]

1 hour ago, Featherhat said:

And I don't think it would have developed in to Step-Ma and Pa Hamilton Kane being Team Batwoman, especially under those circumstances.

I think that scenario is more plausible than having a character with 2 years of medical training be a better doctor than all the other doctors in Gotham. Mary has her own hospital (that she runs by herself) and it is filled with (millions?) of dollars of drugs and equipment. Why is Mary always treating criminals when she could be treating the homeless or low-income. Mary showed not one ounce of medical training while her mother was dying, not even during the 9-1-1 call where she let mouse take her phone afterward. I guess that is why they don't let doctors treat their own families. Mary was the exact opposite of the way she acted during the elevator crash.

[silverstream]

1 hour ago, AnimeMania said:

Mary showed not one ounce of medical training while her mother was dying, not even during the 9-1-1 call where she let mouse take her phone afterward. I guess that is why they don't let doctors treat their own families. Mary was the exact opposite of the way she acted during the elevator crash.

The entire thing was contrived as far as I'm concerned - there's no way an event of that size, filled with rich people to boot, doesn't have a medical team or at least some sort of medic on hand in case there is an emergency (it's also unlikely that there wasn't a single fully trained doctor among the audience). And was there a reason why all the lights went out or at least seemed to malfunction that I missed?

[Samwise979]

Way back in the first episode, the writers had Mary say to Kate something like "it's me, Mary .... You know, your step sister" and then Kate said something like, "I know who you are Mary, our parents have been married for 12 years." Which to me means they wanted to make it clear to the audience that Mary and Kate are not close. And mostly I think they've been sticking to that. This episode however at the end it seemed like they wanted to make us think they really care for each other. Kate's single tear down her cheek when Mary told her to get lost. I didn't buy it. They definitely work as two characters that don't know each other very well but want to become closer but they have zero sister chemistry. I think they have a lot of work to do before I believe they love each other. 

I was very suspicious about Kate at the very end visiting Jacob. Idk. I got the feeling that was mouse sussing out how Jacob is dealing with this all and his feelings toward Alice. 

Oh and I also thought for a moment Cathrine was going to take the antidote and basically be like, sorry Mary but I can't die. Then Alice would have given another dose of antidote to Mary and been like, you see how evil your mother is?!

Edited December 5, 2019 by Samwise979

[RobertDeSneero]

I can't say that I wouldn't have a fanciful revenge fantasy planned out if I had gone through what Alice had.

[ketose]

This is why season-long serial killing villains suck. The "hero" ends up being responsible for months of deaths and terror because they won't use appropriate lethal force. Of course, now that it's "personal" they won't be able to find Alice until the penultimate episode.

[Quark]

This episode could have been so much better if Batwoman was played by a more compelling actress.

Ruby Rose was awful, I think I'm out.

[Trini]

10 hours ago, Quark said:

This episode could have been so much better if Batwoman was played by a more compelling actress.

Ruby Rose was awful, I think I'm out.

I think she's gotten slightly better than the first few episodes?

But they're lucky that there are so many things outside of Kate/Batwoman that are keeping my interest.

[Quark]

3 hours ago, Trini said:

I think she's gotten slightly better than the first few episodes?

But they're lucky that there are so many things outside of Kate/Batwoman that are keeping my interest.

She has gotten slightly better, but considering how betrayed she felt this episode, I was expecting something considerably better from Ruby Rose. But I thought she was very robotic. 

[Josh371982]

On 12/5/2019 at 7:36 PM, RobertDeSneero said:

I can't say that I wouldn't have a fanciful revenge fantasy planned out if I had gone through what Alice had.

Considering Jacob and Kate arent at fault for what happened to her and shes all buddy buddy and calls a boy/man her "brother" when he did nothing to help her get back to her family cause "he didnt want her to go" I say Fuck her. She couldve called out to Kate their dad Is a fucking police officer he couldve taken out that Pyscho father of Bitchboy Mouse. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On 12/2/2019 at 2:00 AM, scarynikki12 said:

I enjoy you Alice but don’t go insulting my Mary. 

It’s a little thing but I’m delighted that Mary had her arms straight and at a ninety degree angle as she did the chest compressions on Katherine. Characters have bent arms and are off to the side almost exclusively, even on medical shows, so this is a nice change. 

RIP Katherine. I wish you would stick around longer. 

How times have changed, everyone hated her but in death she has redeemed herself. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On 12/2/2019 at 5:49 AM, possibilities said:

My big takeaway is that Kate and Beth are Jewish (they had bat mitzahs). I think it's hilarious to hear Batwoman talk about her Bat Mitzvah. I wonder what her torah portion was.

Oh I totally missed that!

On 12/10/2019 at 12:48 AM, Josh371982 said:

Considering Jacob and Kate arent at fault for what happened to her and shes all buddy buddy and calls a boy/man her "brother" when he did nothing to help her get back to her family cause "he didnt want her to go" I say Fuck her. She couldve called out to Kate their dad Is a fucking police officer he couldve taken out that Pyscho father of Bitchboy Mouse. 

Stockholm syndrome, you can totally sympathise with Alice although you can sympathise with her whilst she's locked up in Arkham between Harley and Ivy. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On 12/8/2019 at 8:27 AM, Quark said:

She has gotten slightly better, but considering how betrayed she felt this episode, I was expecting something considerably better from Ruby Rose. But I thought she was very robotic. 

I liked her scenes with her dad, she seems to be getting better . 

[Joe Hellandback]

On 12/4/2019 at 5:39 AM, Trini said:

Amazing how National City, Midway City, and Gotham all have the same opera house!

I can see why they decided to kill off Catherine - least developed character, it was for Mary's pain, to cause more sister drama - but I feel it was too soon (if they should have done it at all), we hardly knew much about her and nothing about her relationship with Kate.

And Mary's the "fun" character; she's not going to be fun mourning her mother. There's enough grimdark as it is.

I am glad we got some more perspective on Sophie, but that seems the only reason for Tyler's existence. But they could do this in other ways?

So now Alice has heard apologies from Kate, Jacob, and Catherine for what happened to her (whether it was their fault or not). I don't think she can expect more than that, so team 'good guys' shouldn't have any hesitation with taking her down at their next confrontation.

... But on the other hand, I still think the sister/enemy relationship between Kate and Alice is really interesting.

Someone should really right a book on all the locations you always see on TV, that LA bridge, the power station, those rocks in central park and the tunnel underneath. 

[Joe Hellandback]

1. Nice the way Kate figures out it's Mouse with the trick question. I suppose Alice could have briefed him on personal details of their childhood but he couldn't have remembered everything.

2. So the Kane girls are Jewish? Never occurred to me, Kane is an Irish surname (interestingly it loosely translates as 'battle' whilst Kate means 'pure', I wonder if that was deliberate?). Be nice if there were a few other refs to this, Kate celebrating the day of atonement etc. 

3. Boy, for this super secret organisation the Crows seem very easy to infiltrate? But then they have Mouse on the inside? 

4. Katherine really seems to redeem herself with her dying breath, Alice has her revenge but Mary at least has some closure with her mother who gives her life for her child.

5. So is Mary now going to turn vigilante and hunt down Alice? Like to see that.

6. You feel so bad for Mary, she keeps trying to reach out to Kate who just can't bring herself to open up.

7. By contrast Kate and her dad seem closer and closer, both now committed to locking Alice up in Arkham. Every scene between Jacob and Alice is just so filled with love and pain. 

8. I only watch Supergirl so I'm not sure of the significance of the scene with JD's brother at the end?

6/10