S01.E07: Tell Me the Truth

[Trini]

Quote

Kate and Sophie must reconcile with their past as Kate questions just how much she can trust her former lover. Kate and Luke have an encounter with an old friend. Mary grapples with the fate of the Kane family as Catherine seeks Jacob's help. Alice and a new cohort are in on yet another nefarious plan, but her motives are more than they seem.

Michael Allowitz directed the episode written by Caroline Dries and Natalie Abrams.

Airdate: 11/17/2019

[scarynikki12]

Backstory time! I’m sorry that Sophie was raised in a homophobic home but I’m happy that we got confirmation. 

I love Mary calling out Kate for having two “assistants” who work at midnight for a real estate company with no real estate. I’m looking forward to Kate’s new bar. 

I’ve decided to start calling him Jake when he does something shady. Like convincing Sophie to stick around and give into the homophobia of the academy. He could have used all his connections to help and didn’t so he’s Jake Kane. 

Nice move from Alice playing the villain but protect Kate. I’m looking forward to the culmination of this back and forth. 

I like Julia. I hope she’s added to the recurring cast. Great advice on trusting people. 

So it’s been six years since they almost graduated from the academy? Huh, I thought Kate was in her thirties but she’s only 28. 

Mouse continues to be creepy and is a damn good actor since he played Jake perfectly. 

[bmoore4026]

Sophie, Sophie, Sophie.  Do you honestly think that your backstory is going to endear the viewers to you?  If anything, it made you worse.  And it made Daddy Kane worse.  I despise both of you, but I despise you more because you also ratted out Kate.

I don't think Kate actually loved Sophie.  It was probably puppy love, though it seemed to mean more to Kate than Sophie. I wish Kate wouldn't lose sleep over this.  Sophie isn't worth the heartache.

Or perhaps think this whole romance was just another notch on Kate's impulse meter. 

Alfred had a daughter?  Who knew?  I thought she was going to be Rose Wilson (Deathstroke's daughter) for a moment what with the platinum blond hair and fighting skills.  Well, I'm just hoping Brendan Coyle shows up as Alfred one day.

Also, can you guys help me?  In which of the Alice books does "Tell me the Truth" come from?  Is it the trial chapters?

[quarks]

1. I think the "Tell me the truth" quote is from chapter 1 of Alice in Wonderland:

"She felt that she was dozing off, and had just begun to dream that she was walking hand in hand with Dinah, and saying to her very earnestly, `Now, Dinah, tell me the truth: did you ever eat a bat?' when suddenly, thump! thump! down she came upon a heap of sticks and dry leaves, and the fall was over."

It's possible the phrase "tell me the truth" appears somewhere else as well, but this quote also has a bat reference.

2. So. Jacob takes off north - something noted by a couple of characters early in the episode - and absolutely no one, including Sophie or his ex-wife, asks why he's returned early?

3. Gotta love that Alice, faced with the choice of calling up Kate to say, hey, did you know our shady stepmother is developing an Anti-Bat weapon, or, alternatively, undertaking a long, complex plot involving murder to save Kate by taking the Anti-Bat weapon out of commission, chooses option two.

4. ARGUS mention! 

5. Though, that said, why is anyone on this show trusting anything ARGUS says? Team Arrow and Team Flash at least have a personal in with the current director.

6. Kate, this whole secret identity thing is not going to work out if you keep doing signature moves AND keep insisting that you need two assistants for your mostly non-existent-so-far real estate firm and that these assistants don't mind working long hours.

7. And as if to prove that Batwoman is absolutely, definitely, Arrow's queer replacement, Kate decides to set up a gay bar in season 1 - more or less the same timeframe Oliver used to set up a straight bar, Verdant, in season 1. 

[scarynikki12]

34 minutes ago, quarks said:

Jacob takes off north - something noted by a couple of characters early in the episode - and absolutely no one, including Sophie or his ex-wife, asks why he's returned early?

I think I heard Katherine ask after his earl return and he said something about finishing early.

[quarks]

1 minute ago, scarynikki12 said:

I think I heard Katherine ask after his earl return and he said something about finishing early.

Ah, ok.

[AnimeMania]

I blame Julia Pennyworth for the death of that Hamilton Dynamics scientist that Mouse killed. If she would have done her job and subdued "The Rifle" instead of attacking Batwoman, "The Rifle" would be in custody and the Hamilton Dynamics scientist would probably still be alive. Julia Pennyworth made it appear that the people who wanted him dead were still right behind him when in fact the two people fighting meant him no harm and wanted to protect him.

[Jediknight]

3 hours ago, scarynikki12 said:

I’ve decided to start calling him Jake when he does something shady. Like convincing Sophie to stick around and give into the homophobia of the academy. He could have used all his connections to help and didn’t so he’s Jake Kane. 

I don't know if I could call him Jake Kane.  The other Jake Kane loved his kids no matter what.  He never would have tried to stand in the way of his daughter's happiness.  So far, this Jake Kane doesn't have that same quality.

Kate, forget about Sophie.  She's betrayed you twice.  You've got 2 perfectly awesome women who are completely into you.  Be honest with Reagan, and she'll jump in your arms.  And Alfred's daughter is just waiting for you to ask.

Mary's getting closer to the truth, which is awesome.

[Proteus]

I loved Julia. Can we please keep her?

Its hard rooting for Kate/Sophie to be end game when they keep introducing good other options for Kate.

I love all Alice scenes.

I hope Mary and Kate start bonding more.

[thuganomics85]

Naturally, Alfred ends up having a daughter who is not only a badass that had helped train Kate to be the badass fighter that she is now, but, of course, also had a fling with her as well, before it all came crashing down due to her secretly keeping an eye on her for Bruce.  No wonder Kate has trust issues!  But the actress was winning and I liked how she played off both Kate and Luke, so I hope we see her again.

I really don't know how I'm suppose to feel about Sophie after all of this.  I truly feel bad for her over what happened a the military camp and it is horrible that it seemed like her only option to maintain her career was to lie about her feelings and what Kate meant to her.  That said, she really seems to be making the worst choices possible going forward, and not only betrayed Kate again, but continues to be deceitful with her husband.  This is not going to end well for her at all.  Although I'm curious to see if we'll meet her homophobic mother, because it sounds like she is the one that might have really done a number on her.

Mary now knows that there is a secret room in the Wayne Tower.  I'm choosing to believe that all of this playful teasing means she'll find out soon rather than later.  Until then, I'm glad she and Kate are finally reconnecting with this whole running a gay bar storyline.

Not as much Alice this go around, but damn, Rachel Skarsten sure loves to spectacularly camp it up whenever she can!

Maybe I'm just in a generous mood tonight, but I thought Ruby Rose actually handled her dramatic scenes better than she normally does.  Maybe she's finally settling in, now?

[UNOSEZ]

After the flashback I am ok with Sophie doing what she did... Besides having some seriously internalized shame and maybe some homophobia.. She also had way less options... Like she told Kate.. She didn't have the privilege of being offended.. And her decision to never speak of it again also rings true... Still not sure how I feel about the husband thing... The actress says she believes Sophie is just a closeted lesbian and not Bi/Pan etc... If that's the case and hes like a beard... Even a well intended one.. That's sucks... Her telling Jacob,  I guess if you wanna Use the word betrayal you can.. But from her vantage point.. How would it look of the crows killed Batwoman and Jacob found out Sophie knew... We protect the ppl we love.. Even from themselves.. And what Sophie did protected two of the ppl she loves.. Jacob and Kate... Am I supposed to believe that Sophie now doesn't think kate is batwoman??...  Cuz that feels like a stretch 

[Lady Calypso]

1 hour ago, UNOSEZ said:

The actress says she believes Sophie is just a closeted lesbian and not Bi/Pan etc... If that's the case and hes like a beard... Even a well intended one.. That's sucks...

That actually makes it worse for me. Mostly because we always see the closeted gay/lesbian storyline on television, and it would be much more interesting if Sophie was bisexual. It adds another layer to the Kate/Sophie romantic arc that they're going for. If Sophie is really a closeted lesbian, then it just means that she's not in love with her husband and it's just a waiting until he dies scenario. Rather than it being a story where Sophie did love her husband, and maybe still does, but her relationship with Kate has always been stronger. 

This episode provided more insight into Sophie in general, which is great, but it also didn't make her look very good. I mean, there's a lot of sympathy over what happened to her with feeling like she needed to stay in the closet, especially with her homophobic family. But....they're not really appealing me with Kate/Sophie as a long-term couple. Mostly because of the fact that Sophie needs to desperately work on herself and Kate's been hurt by Sophie a lot. It's similar to Oliver/Laurel from Arrow. The two had too many issues in their past to ever work out in the present. 

But Kate opening up a gay bar? Awesome! And I liked Kate's scenes with Julia.

More Mary, please!

The Alice scenes were great. I hope that we see her interacting with other main characters more...please. 

Jacob Kane is not a character who is proving himself to be a very good dad, is he? 

[joanne3482]

12 hours ago, quarks said:

3. Gotta love that Alice, faced with the choice of calling up Kate to say, hey, did you know our shady stepmother is developing an Anti-Bat weapon, or, alternatively, undertaking a long, complex plot involving murder to save Kate by taking the Anti-Bat weapon out of commission, chooses option two.

Option 2 lets her kill people. Killing's the best! 🙂 

[Loandbehold]

12 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

I blame Julia Pennyworth for the death of that Hamilton Dynamics scientist that Mouse killed. If she would have done her job and subdued "The Rifle" instead of attacking Batwoman, "The Rifle" would be in custody and the Hamilton Dynamics scientist would probably still be alive. Julia Pennyworth made it appear that the people who wanted him dead were still right behind him when in fact the two people fighting meant him no harm and wanted to protect him.

This. Why did Julia get in the way at that point? And telling Kate that she shouldn't have used the move Julia taught her? Since when shouldn't you use self-defense / martial arts move when you're, you know, in a fight? With someone you hadn't seen in years and who, oh by the way, doesn't live in Gotham and what's the last thing - right, she's wearing a mask. I liked Julia, but those two things were just dumb.

13 hours ago, quarks said:

Gotta love that Alice, faced with the choice of calling up Kate to say, hey, did you know our shady stepmother is developing an Anti-Bat weapon, or, alternatively, undertaking a long, complex plot involving murder to save Kate by taking the Anti-Bat weapon out of commission, chooses option two.

Super Evil's gotta super evil or else you risk losing your spot in Evil League of Evil, or the D.C. Universe equivalent. And in Alice's mind, she probably thinks she didn't (once again) break her vow to Kate not to kill anyone else. After all, the Rifle killed two of the scientists and Mouse killed the third. None died by Alice's hand. Her money, yes. Her influence over them, sure. But not by her hand. Although Mouse already is jealous that his "sister" likes Kate best. Learning that she tampered with the weapon and had the scientists killed to protect Kate won't make him feel better.

[possibilities]

I was willing to give Sophie a pass on choosing to graduate in the closet, but at this point, what is she protecting? She has a career, and it won't be jeopardized by her coming out now. And she's lying to her husband, which is just cruel at this point. And it's 2019 for godsake. You can get married, you can be in the military, and still be out. If you want to be in the closet, be in the closet. But Sophie is making a choice and it's unfair to her husband, which seriously undermines the sympathy factor. I don't villify her for being in the closet, but I don't respect her for crapping on everyone she's close to and not seeming to have any conscience about it. She can't ask for sympathy and expect her angst to be moving when she mostly looks like a two-faced coward at this point.

Mary would be a better Batwoman. She's badass and loyal and honest and generally awesome from every angle. She confronts her mother, she cares about other people, she makes an effort. And she's not weighed down by some weird emo quicksand over someone who's a lying self-pitying selfish coward.

[UNOSEZ]

8 minutes ago, possibilities said:

but at this point, what is she protecting? She has a career, and it won't be jeopardized by her coming out now. And she's lying to her husband,

Well I figured its her family and her internalized shame.. That's what's keeping her from being out there.. And tho like I said the actress believes the character is a closeted lesbian.. She really could be bisexual... So the husband isn't a beard as much as.. Just the odd man out on a triangle... The show has only done the bare minimum in laying the groundwork for those beats.. So its hard to feel anything for Sophie... The show itself seems like it wants to make her the bad guy.. But can't totally commit so were stuck in some weird middle ground... Like the show wants to condemn the closet but can't actually do it so we get this... Also if she turns out to be full lesbian... I say boo... Making her bi would be much better 

[tennisgurl]

Of course Alice, when trying to protect her sister, takes the longest and more complicated way to get her to safety, that also allows her to kill people and create a bit of mayhem! Why just give her a call or pop by her place when you could do this instead! Too bad that Mouse was raised by a crazy guy, he really could have been a great actor, even without the masks! 

It was nice to get some backstory for Sophie and get more context as to her issues and her relationship with Kate, with left me with pretty mixed feelings about her. On the one hand, I feel sorry for her growing up with a homophobic family and being persecuted for her sexuality, forcing her to choose between love and her career and dreams, and I even understand why she did what she did. Kate can easier get away with her rebelliousness and "screw you and your damn system!" behavior than Sophie as she has a wealthy and powerful family who supports her sexuality (or at least wont denounce her for it) to fall back on, while Sophie apparently does not. On the other hand, she has now betrayed Kate not once but twice now, even if they were for understandable reasons, and she is continuously lying to her husband, and is apparently still hung up on Kate. I am disappointed to hear that she is a closeted lesbian and not bisexual or pan, as I think that would have added more dimensions to her relationship with Kate, that she did love her husband while still having unresolved feelings for Kate, but now I guess she has no real romantic feelings for him, making it less of a complicated situation. 

I am just not feeling the Sophie/Kate epic love story. It seems like to me they had an intense relationship when they were young, but dont know each other very well as adults. Especially as Kate has so many other, better options now that dont come with tons of baggage and a husband! Julia even knows about her secret identity and is cool with it, which solves almost all of Kate's personal problems! It also seems like for them to get together, Tyler is going to have to die, which sucks because he seems like a decent guy who really loves Sophia and has no idea that she doesent love him as much as he loves her. It just sets a Kate/Sophia romance as getting off on a sad note right away. 

So Alfred has a daughter! Who is totally awesome of course! Although her getting into that fight with Kate over the shooter was so stupid, that scientist died because she was so focused on being the one to get the guy, even fighting Kate, that the killer got away, That was a really stupid move. 

Jacob was really wheeling and dealing, even back in the day. I dont blame him for Beth at all, but a lot of his stuff with Kate is a mess. I think he means well, but is something of a control freak. 

Mary is getting closer every episode to figuring things out! I hope that Kate reaches out to Mary a bit more, Mary so desperately wants to be close to her, and their scenes are always a highlight of every episode. I get that Kate is busy, but maybe just brunch?

[Rushmoras]

Ugh, you're both after the same target. What you do? Team up and afterwards duke it out or duke it out now and let the baddy escape?

So, Sophie got a second opinion in the flashback. So? She is still an untrustworthy person. Does not matter why she snitches. Well, at least there will be no love triangle and good riddance (unless, they decide to kill off the husband). Speaking off... what the hell was that about being all friendly with Batwoman speech while talking with Sophie? Dude, you just seen the video where they linger for 10 seconds. Sophie's alibi that she was reading her her rights is valid as any alibi.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Rushmoras

[BaggythePanther]

15 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

The actress says she believes Sophie is just a closeted lesbian and not Bi/Pan etc... If that's the case and hes like a beard... Even a well intended one.. That's sucks..

Why does the Megan Tandy have to head cannon Sophie’s sexuality? Shouldn’t the writers let her know definitively, so that she knows how to play the part? Otherwise, you have Megan assuming one thing, and three episodes later the writers decide that Sophie is bi. Though supposedly the Legends writers had a time of it when they wanted to writing about Sara being bi. It might be easier to write for a lesbian in the closet.

I’m annoyed that they whitewashed Julia for a dumb reason, but the actress was cool, and had good chemistry with everyone so it wasn’t all bad.

A superhero and their sister working together to run a bar. Where have I seen that before? 😋I need Mary to come in on the secret soon, but for now I look forward to seeing her and Kate spend more time together.

[RobertDeSneero]

On 11/17/2019 at 8:00 PM, scarynikki12 said:

Like convincing Sophie to stick around and give into the homophobia of the academy. He could have used all his connections to help and didn’t so he’s Jake Kane. 

He didn't convince her to stay in the academy.  He told her what was going to happen and allowed her to make an informed decision.  He loves his daughter, but he described her as "reckless".  I'm assuming that he had met Sophie several times and respected her.  He knew what Kate was going to do and that she was going to talk Sophie into doing the same thing.  He presumably knew what her career hopes and dreams were and how much they meant to Sophie, as he would be someone she might ask advice from.

He told her that she had to choose between her relationship and her career.  He just pointed out that she couldn't have both and she would have to make the difficult decision of which one she wanted to chase.  One could read that conversation as him making her aware that he would help Kate (and, by extension, Sophie) if he could, but that none of his influence would change what was about to happen.   Maybe he thought he could predict it, but he didn't know what was in her heart.  He didn't know how she would weigh things.  Only she could make that decision for herself.

This is for the benefit of Kate.  If Sophie follows Kate out the door, but would have stayed if she understood that she had no chance of winning, then she would have grown to resent Kate and their relationship would never have survived that resentment.  If Sophie, after a careful consideration of her options, still wanted to go with Kate, then I think he would have supported them.  He wasn't telling Sophie what to do.  He was asking her if this was really what she wanted.

He did something that was in the best interests of both Kate and Sophie.

[RobertDeSneero]

24 minutes ago, BaggythePanther said:

Why does the Megan Tandy have to head cannon Sophie’s sexuality? Shouldn’t the writers let her know definitively, so that she knows how to play the part? Otherwise, you have Megan assuming one thing, and three episodes later the writers decide that Sophie is bi. Though supposedly the Legends writers had a time of it when they wanted to writing about Sara being bi. It might be easier to write for a lesbian in the closet.

Why do the writers have to decide now if Sophie is a lesbian or bisexual?  Maybe they don't know for sure how they will resolve the sexual tension.  Perhaps their intention is to have Kate and Sophie end up together, but they want to leave it open to shifting gears if they decided the characters didn't fit as well as they though or if the actresses didn't have the on-screen chemistry that the writers wanted.

[Featherhat]

6 hours ago, RobertDeSneero said:

Why do the writers have to decide now if Sophie is a lesbian or bisexual?  Maybe they don't know for sure how they will resolve the sexual tension.  Perhaps their intention is to have Kate and Sophie end up together, but they want to leave it open to shifting gears if they decided the characters didn't fit as well as they though or if the actresses didn't have the on-screen chemistry that the writers wanted.

With something like this I think it's a good idea to have a game plan and let your character's sexuality inform how you write and play the character. A bi character and a lesbian in the closet are two completely different things when it comes to being in a relationship with a man and even the main character. Not telling your husband you are bi is problematic, not telling him you are a lesbian is down right awful in 2019 especially when you're openly pining for your former girlfriend. They don't have to tell the audience right away but they should know and tell the actress because this relationship already has a ton of baggage and it's only episode 7 and they are planning on this being Kate's epic love story.

I do have sympathy for Sophie, growing up in a homophobic household and feeling like she didn't have any options (even though she did). There were no easy choices at the time and some of what happened is understandable. Now, I really don't want her and Kate back together after everything that's happened and again we're only on episode 7. I don't think the actresses have the chemistry necessary for me to root for them to get back together after a probable husband death and Sophie betraying Kate a couple of times and Kate having more options. It seems like a relationship best left in the past. It really does feel a little like Arrow's Oliver and Laurel, the writers threw such a load of crap for their relationship to deal with in the backstory that it sunk it almost right away, and the anti chemistry did the rest. Here's it's not half as bad but I still think they should make a complete break of it for a couple of seasons at least. 

In other news I continue to think Mary is the MVP character overshadowed a but by RS's scenery chewing craziness. Love her continuing attempts to get close to Kate and thus close to the secret. Opening a gay bar together, hello Arrow S1 template but that will provide lots of fun. Kate is about as good a liar about her secret as Oliver was "hello midnight real estate employees!". 

How convenient Alfred has a daughter around Kate's age who knows her secret and is in to her. She's well on the way to assembling her Batfamily. 

Edited November 19, 2019 by Featherhat

[UNOSEZ]

I'm not a Megan Tandy fan... She tends to bore me in most of the things I've seen her in... And Sophie isn't really an exception.. But I have to say I'm not sure I really agree with all this "betrayal" talk... I grew up in a super progressive family I was taught tolerance, respect  and to advocate for equality from the cradle.. Even so I was also taught that how we lived and thought wasn't the whole world.. And that outside our walls and away from the bubble of community I grew up in,  that other's experiences would have to take precedence over my entrenched beliefs... I blather all that out to say.. We seem to be holding Sophie to a standard that we aren't holding kate too... Maybe its because most of us believe in expressing our truths and not letting others bigoted worldview confine us... But Sophie and Kate's actions got them in a situation that promised to derail everything they had worked for leading up to that moment and would impact everything moving forward and to this point the show hasn't even hinted that kate thought about doing what Sophie did.. Even if Sophie never mentions keeping quiet to get along.. If kate loves Sophie as I assume she did, she  knows her family situation she knows her dreams moving forward... But it looks like she was ready to have Sophie lose all of it to take this stand and while personally I believe in what she did.. What Sophie did is just as rational.. So as fans.. Especially when we could all see that Sophie telling kate she didn't love her was BS.. And knowing that Kate's decision was just as self-serving as Sophie's.. Maybe we shouldn't be so quick to judge and pile on... As for the other betrayal.. I mean once again Kate's recklessness puts all the onus on Sophie... Kate's so transparent as Batwoman that damn near everyone who knows her and spends any time with her seems to figure it out.. So fine... Sophie is now working for Batwoman's dad.. Sophie knows that Jacob seems to hate the Bat symbol.. He's turned his inner shame into outward rage for the Bat.. Also the bat is a threat to the business that he's built all reasons to chase and antagonize and possibly even kill this Batwoman.. Sophie is loyal to Jacob almost like a daughter.. Its been mentioned by a few characters how close they are he's an authority figure who respects her and puts his trust in.. He knows at least as much as anyone can her sexuality and loves her anyway.. He's given her a place to be herself and strive while also providing for her family.. And to connect it to my first point.. He's the one that stopped her torpedoing her career and at least until this episode she was glad she didn't join Kate and leave point rock... and on top of all of that emotional entanglement  there is the real possibility that jacobbcould order the death of his daughter and soohie woukd have known and said nothing... I mean,  thats a definitely between a rock and a hard place.. kate knows all of this and Luke rightly tells her to just speak to Sophie.. And what happens.. Super bigot gets in their way... Kate blows up.. Makes a hell of a scene, and totally makes Sophie uncomfortable... Again personally I don't mind the blow up.. But shes meeting the already reserved buttoned up Sophie in a wildly romantic setting in public making noise and taking a stand and ostensibly  doing what it is she came there to do which was prove she's not a reckless hothead who's gonna get herself killed..  not suprsingly Sophie freaked out.. But kate still coulda spoken to her.. Explained what it was she was trying to accomplish as BW... But nah... So of course Sophie tells Jacob ( mouse) based on that data alone I would too.... To me the only betrayal is to her husband... Either she's bisexual woman.. Did honestly love him and just has unresolved feelings for an ex and will probably cheat on him with her... Or he was a beard this whole time... I believe those two love each other.. I also believe kate doesn't respect Sophie on some level and Sophie resents how Kate's pride veers into selfishness... I don't know how these two become something epic without clearing that up first.... 

Sorry For The Essay

[CabotCove]

I did not like this episode, if the writers did not want someone else to find out about Batwoman they shouldnt have done the story yet. The deception of having someone else be in the costume is tired. 

And Julia, I dont like this character at all, would be glad not to see her ever. 

[TV Anonymous]

I think the homosexuality issues in this episode hit us hard and become distraction. It is 2019 already. What fine dining restaurant in a major city in the Western world still has issue of what appears to be gay couple having a meal? As well, DADT was repealed in 2011. Since then, gay service members have been out in public, in uniform.

I get it, it is a fictional universe. But the issues the show brings up IMHO is already past for viewers.

Edited November 19, 2019 by TV Anonymous

[Starry]

I like Julia but if they want Kate to move on from Sophie they should at least have the good sense to not replace their black love interest with a whitewashed character. I am sorry but Julia can go join Reagan in Offscreenville.

In the same episode we finally get more backstory on Sophie they fool her into believing someone else is Batwoman and her relationship with Kate goes one step forward, two steps back. I am not sure Jacob should have meddled in their business despite his good intentions but I don't exactly view Sophie's actions as a betrayal. I mean, I get why it is from Kate's perspective but Sophie's heart was in the right place. She doesn't have a strong support system in her mother nor does she have as many options as Kate. As for her ratting out Kate to Jacob, it wasn't done out of spite. She wanted to protect her.

I think Tyler is the one getting the short end of the stick here. Whether Sophie is bi or a closeted lesbian, she's not staying with him out of romantic love. She's not even unsure or torn. She's completely in love with someone else and that's not fair to her husband.

I really liked the scene with Sophie defending Kate as the academy best cadet. That was sweet and so was her gift at the end followed by Kate's tears.

The one time an Italian character isn't depicted as a member of the Mafia, he's a homophobic ass. Great.

[sugarbaker design]

The character of Sophie does not work on so many levels.  Firstly, the actress is very bland and milquetoast.  I find it hard to believe she's a super cop or the object of 2 people's desire.  Secondly, she's written as this wishy-washy careerist.  Who would like that?  Thirdly, the commitment phobic bi-girl is nothing new.

Transfer Sophie to Metropolis and let Kate move on.

[appositival]

On 11/17/2019 at 11:34 PM, AnimeMania said:

I blame Julia Pennyworth for the death of that Hamilton Dynamics scientist that Mouse killed.

I blame the writers. The "Rifle!" could have shot Batwoman with a tear gas bullet (United States Patent 2920566), cut his feet free, and escaped. Instead, he escaped because the heroes were being stupid. Plot driven stupidity is a hallmark of bad writing.

Nuanced handling of adult relationships is difficult for competent writers so I wouldn't expect to see it here. The CW's shows are targeted at teens, so most relationships are fumbled and most parents are either clueless, jerks, or dead (and often all three).

I did like Kate's reaction to Mary's mention of their parents divorce. I could see she was thinking, "What? There's a B plot? Isn't my drama enough for this show?".

[possibilities]

What makes Sophie a two faced coward/liar (in my view) is that she confesses her enduring love for Kate in one scene and then right after that goes to her husband and tells him he's the only one she loves.

He can tell something is up. He's asking her what it is. She's gaslighting him. That's bad behavior whether she's a lesbian, bi, or something else. It's just wrong. And it's not what you do when you care about someone.

It really doesn't have anything to do with whether or not she wants to be out, or why that is.

[Rahul]

9 hours ago, CabotCove said:

I did not like this episode, if the writers did not want someone else to find out about Batwoman they shouldnt have done the story yet. The deception of having someone else be in the costume is tired. 

And Julia, I dont like this character at all, would be glad not to see her ever. 

I was beginning to to think I was the only one who really disliked Julia. When I read the episode description, I had a feeling they would make her an old love interest of Kate's and I was dismayed to find I was correct about the clichéd writing. 

I didn't care for this episode as a whole. I've seen these same exact story lines on Arrow many times before; (1) someone else dons Oliver's costume to escape suspicions that Oliver is the Green Arrow and Oliver and his sister team up to open up a night club/bar that serves as a front for their underground vigilante operation.

I also did not understand how Kate could explain being at the same place as Batwoman as she did not have the technology to track the radioactive emissions. 

Hoping the next episode is a vast improvement over this one. Batwoman is the only Arrowverse show I still watch.

[Cranberry]

I have gay friends who have been verbally attacked at restaurants in major cities. It still happens. Was it heavy-handed to have Kate and Sophie forced to confront a homophobe the second they went out together in public? Sure. Was it unbelievable? Sadly, not at all.

[AnimeMania]

12 hours ago, Rahul said:

I also did not understand how Kate could explain being at the same place as Batwoman as she did not have the technology to track the radioactive emissions. 

I thought about that as well and the only thing I thought might explain it was: Are they in the same building that she later purchased to open her nightclub, she could claim she was inspecting it and heard some noise. If it is the same building, now has has a big Batwoman shaped hole in her wall.

[Trini]

Watched this one distracted, so I don't think I took in everything....

Glad we finally got more backstory and POV for Sophie; I feel we can understand her actions better now. -- Except for her husband. They haven't explained why she thinks she needs this relationship. But speaking of; I thought they would have to kill him off later to free up Sophie, but now I think there's a good chance he'll just leave.

I get that they did the 'X and Y are here at the same time, so clearly they're not the same person' ruse so early because Sophie found out early, but I still think it's silly because I'm sure she'll again know for sure by the end of this season.

Glad that it looks like they'll flesh out the Kate/Mary relationship some more. I think they really need to before they can let her in on the Secret.

I'm not invested in Kate/Sophie (mainly because I'm not so invested in Kate), but they are not doing a great job of selling that pairing.

Julia: sexy, smirky ex showing up to cause trouble and shine a light on the current romance -- well, they're just hitting all the clichés here....

So Alice is still protecting Kate/Batwoman, and there's another supervillainess with her sights on Gotham? Interesting!

[Simba122504]

On 11/17/2019 at 9:30 PM, bmoore4026 said:

Sophie, Sophie, Sophie.  Do you honestly think that your backstory is going to endear the viewers to you?  If anything, it made you worse.  And it made Daddy Kane worse.  I despise both of you, but I despise you more because you also ratted out Kate.

I don't think Kate actually loved Sophie.  It was probably puppy love, though it seemed to mean more to Kate than Sophie. I wish Kate wouldn't lose sleep over this.  Sophie isn't worth the heartache.

Or perhaps think this whole romance was just another notch on Kate's impulse meter. 

Alfred had a daughter?  Who knew?  I thought she was going to be Rose Wilson (Deathstroke's daughter) for a moment what with the platinum blond hair and fighting skills.  Well, I'm just hoping Brendan Coyle shows up as Alfred one day.

Also, can you guys help me?  In which of the Alice books does "Tell me the Truth" come from?  Is it the trial chapters?

Kate is a rich white woman from powerful wealthy family. Yes, she's queer but her daddy has power. Sophia is a poor black woman with no power. Mr. Kane wasn't going to help her. He knows his daughter and called her reckless which she can afford to be.  So, Yeah, she chose her livelihood over being some romance novel hero. Kate was so blinded by privilege she couldn't see that. Yeah, she was hurt but she refused to see why Sophia did it. Bruce Wayne isn't her cousin, she didn't grow in penthouses and mansions surrounded by endless power. There are things I dislike about Sophia but that isn't one of them.

Edited November 23, 2019 by Simba122504

[AnimeMania]

8 hours ago, Simba122504 said:

Kate is a rich white woman from powerful wealthy family. Yes, she's queer but her daddy has power. Sophia is a poor black woman with no power. Mr. Kane wasn't going to help her. He knows his daughter and called her reckless which she can afford to be.  So, Yeah, she chose her livelihood over being some romance novel hero. Kate was so blinded by privilege she couldn't see that. Yeah, she was hurt but she refused to see why Sophia did it. Bruce Wayne isn't her cousin, she didn't grow in penthouses and mansions surrounded by endless power. There are things I dislike about Sophia but that isn't one of them.

Mr. Kane wasn't going to help her.  More like Mr. Kane couldn't help Sophie in that particular situation except tell her the truth about what was going to happen. Mr. Kane helped Sophie a lot after that incident, including keeping Sophie in Kate's sphere of influence, in case the two ever decided to get back together.

[Simba122504]

17 hours ago, AnimeMania said:

Mr. Kane wasn't going to help her.  More like Mr. Kane couldn't help Sophie in that particular situation except tell her the truth about what was going to happen. Mr. Kane helped Sophie a lot after that incident, including keeping Sophie in Kate's sphere of influence, in case the two ever decided to get back together.

I’m referring to fans thinking he’s supposed be her daddy Warbucks, Fairy Godmother or something. I don’t think him hiring her had anything to do with a future romance with Kate. Sophia ended up marrying a dude, so I see him just helping her after what went down. Or Maybe he did, but who knows yet?  I know it’s a comic book series but I like how some things like Sophia’s situation is grounded in reality. Everyone doesn’t always get to play the hero. Kate got kicked out but it really doesn’t matter. She’s from a powerful wealthy family. Her future was secure. 

Edited November 24, 2019 by Simba122504
Corrected name

[LisaM]

I'm looking forward to Mary finding out the truth about Kate/Batwoman and becoming a member of the Team. Rachel Skarsten does great scenery chewing. 

[Lantern7]

Forgot to post two weeks ago. Does anyone else wonder why this show airs at 8, while Supergirl runs at 9? Given the darkness and occasional heavy social content found here, I’d think the positions would be swapped.

Julia can stay . . . though I half-expect Sara Lance to storm in on the lady who’s been reading her Wikipedia entry.

[Trini]

6 minutes ago, Lantern7 said:

Forgot to post two weeks ago. Does anyone else wonder why this show airs at 8, while Supergirl runs at 9? Given the darkness and occasional heavy social content found here, I’d think the positions would be swapped.

Probably has nothing to do with subject matter; but my guess is the earlier timeslot is better for ratings.

[Sakura12]

It always amuses me when people say a show is too dark for 8pm. When here in the Central timezone the shows start at 7pm. 

As for Batwoman like Trini said they gave it the earlier time to help it get better ratings. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On 11/18/2019 at 3:37 AM, quarks said:

1. I think the "Tell me the truth" quote is from chapter 1 of Alice in Wonderland:

"She felt that she was dozing off, and had just begun to dream that she was walking hand in hand with Dinah, and saying to her very earnestly, `Now, Dinah, tell me the truth: did you ever eat a bat?' when suddenly, thump! thump! down she came upon a heap of sticks and dry leaves, and the fall was over."

It's possible the phrase "tell me the truth" appears somewhere else as well, but this quote also has a bat reference.

2. So. Jacob takes off north - something noted by a couple of characters early in the episode - and absolutely no one, including Sophie or his ex-wife, asks why he's returned early?

3. Gotta love that Alice, faced with the choice of calling up Kate to say, hey, did you know our shady stepmother is developing an Anti-Bat weapon, or, alternatively, undertaking a long, complex plot involving murder to save Kate by taking the Anti-Bat weapon out of commission, chooses option two.

4. ARGUS mention! 

5. Though, that said, why is anyone on this show trusting anything ARGUS says? Team Arrow and Team Flash at least have a personal in with the current director.

6. Kate, this whole secret identity thing is not going to work out if you keep doing signature moves AND keep insisting that you need two assistants for your mostly non-existent-so-far real estate firm and that these assistants don't mind working long hours.

7. And as if to prove that Batwoman is absolutely, definitely, Arrow's queer replacement, Kate decides to set up a gay bar in season 1 - more or less the same timeframe Oliver used to set up a straight bar, Verdant, in season 1. 

It wasn't that big a deal, all she needed to say was "Hi this is my old Krav Maga teacher and lover and friend of Lucius and Bruce Wayne's butler's daughter who popped by for old times sake". She had every reason to be there  

On 11/18/2019 at 7:10 PM, UNOSEZ said:

Well I figured its her family and her internalized shame.. That's what's keeping her from being out there.. And tho like I said the actress believes the character is a closeted lesbian.. She really could be bisexual... So the husband isn't a beard as much as.. Just the odd man out on a triangle... The show has only done the bare minimum in laying the groundwork for those beats.. So its hard to feel anything for Sophie... The show itself seems like it wants to make her the bad guy.. But can't totally commit so were stuck in some weird middle ground... Like the show wants to condemn the closet but can't actually do it so we get this... Also if she turns out to be full lesbian... I say boo... Making her bi would be much better 

Well it seems to be succeeding, people hate her just as much as they love Mary. 

[Joe Hellandback]

On 11/23/2019 at 5:57 AM, Simba122504 said:

Kate is a rich white woman from powerful wealthy family. Yes, she's queer but her daddy has power. Sophia is a poor black woman with no power. Mr. Kane wasn't going to help her. He knows his daughter and called her reckless which she can afford to be.  So, Yeah, she chose her livelihood over being some romance novel hero. Kate was so blinded by privilege she couldn't see that. Yeah, she was hurt but she refused to see why Sophia did it. Bruce Wayne isn't her cousin, she didn't grow in penthouses and mansions surrounded by endless power. There are things I dislike about Sophia but that isn't one of them.

And I've always thought that, Kate has security, not only does her dad run this successful firm but her mother was independently wealthy and she's billionaire Bruce Wayne's cousin. Sophie not only risks her career but would be estranged from her family. 

[Joe Hellandback]

1. Really like Julia, nice that Alfred had a daughter of his own rather than being wholly devoted to the Waynes. Hope we see her again. 

2. Pretty obvious what their plan was going to be the moment she appears though, oldest trick in the book. Although I also like the idea of Luke in Batdrag. 

3. Nice that she knows Luke too although is it just me or are there an awful lot of people in on the Bat secret these days? Still keeping Mary out of the loop though, nice that she assumes the Batcave was Bruce's safe room. 

4. Is it such a big deal that 2 women are holding hands? Some straight women do that all the time? I like the idea of the gay bar and nice she brings Mary in to help, the step sisters still together. 

5. I have to say I agree with 'Sophie's choice' (I wonder if that was deliberate?), it's okay for rich Kate to be a rebel with her dad, her mum's money and Bruce to fall back upon. For Sophie this would ruin her career and estrange her from her family. 

6. Sophie's husband reminds me increasingly of Riley from Buffy, you do feel sorry for him.

7. Boy, really was a shock when Julia gets zapped in the Batsuit. But Alice won't allow anything to happen to her beloved Kate. But who is Sofia?

8. So how were they going to explain Kate being in the same building at Batwoman? She was scouting for real estate or she was following Sophie to talk to her?

9. Mouse totally fooled me and I was shocked when 'Jacob' walked in. When you rewatch however Dougray Scott puts a few little hints in his performance to show there's something off. 

10. Just a little hint of incestuous attraction from Alice with her daddy line but I guess that makes sense with GSA and everything.  

11. Yeah, you know armoured trucks have armoured tyres, right? 

12. So what's in the vial? Some form of Tetch virus?

7/10

[quarks]

4 hours ago, Joe Hellandback said:

4. Is it such a big deal that 2 women are holding hands? Some straight women do that all the time? I like the idea of the gay bar and nice she brings Mary in to help, the step sisters still together. 

 

In my experience, at least, it depends upon the location, and it tends to be less of a problem in large cities, but, unfortunately, yes, this can be a big deal and isn't unheard of in large cities either. And common enough that it would not surprise me at all to hear that Ruby Rose has personally experienced similar incidents. 

[John Potts]

When Sophie said "She just left!" (re. confronting Batwoman in the street) everyone should know that was a lie. No superhero could resist dropping a one liner before leaving. And I suppose technically, she didn't didn't know Kate was Batwoman when she spoke to Daddy Kane.

"Bruce is better at keeping a secret than you are..." (Luke Fox). No shit! Are we going to have a new person learning Kate's identity every week?

On 11/18/2019 at 6:50 PM, possibilities said:

I was willing to give Sophie a pass on choosing to graduate in the closet, but at this point, what is she protecting? She has a career, and it won't be jeopardized by her coming out now. And she's lying to her husband, which is just cruel at this point. And it's 2019 for godsake.

I have to agree with this. When she was at the Academy, Kate was basically asking her to defy not just the Military higher ups but her family too while if Kate got kicked out, she was still the daughter of a millionaire who would (and did) support her, so her decision was understandable. But now Sophie has a responsible (presumably well paid) job, a sympathetic boss and can decide for herself. Hell, if it's purely for the sake of her family, she could probably find a willing beard to marry, but she is deceiving her fiance, too,

On 11/18/2019 at 3:37 AM, quarks said:

Gotta love that Alice, faced with the choice of calling up Kate to say, hey, did you know our shady stepmother is developing an Anti-Bat weapon, or, alternatively, undertaking a long, complex plot involving murder to save Kate by taking the Anti-Bat weapon out of commission, chooses option two.

She's clearly a firm adherent of the Supervillain Code! I hope she's building an array of overly complex and easily escapable deathtraps while she's offscreen...