S04.E08: The Funeral to End All Funerals

[Fukui San]

It was nice of TPTB to give Kristen Bell a nice, straightforward episode for her directing debut. 

[chaifan]

13 minutes ago, SomeTameGazelle said:

Not qualifying for the Good Place wouldn't be a problem if the only alternative were not the Bad Place -- the real Bad Place, not Michael's experimental No Exit neighbourhood where the worst thing that happens is to your feelings. A Bad Place with demons actually torturing your for eternity.

And no one has ever totted up the value of points accrued in the afterlife until this experiment.

Judge Gen's ruling that humans were somehow the problem with the system was bizarre and shocking. I was entertained but can't make logical sense of it.

Yeah, I guess I automatically assumed that people who didn't quite qualify for the Good Place would be held at the Medium Place, but OhioPirate is right that the Medium Place doesn't quite equal purgatory, since Mindy is stuck there and can't move either way.  So maybe I'm thinking of more of a "somewhere in between the Bad Place and the Good Place Place" as a holding ground.  But still, would it just be an Average Place?  Or I guess if you don't qualify for the Good Place immediately on death you go to the Bad Place, but there's a chance of getting out if you accrue enough points while there.

Anyways, on to your comment about Gen's ruling.  I get it (sort of).  The reason it's humans' fault is because we've made life so difficult & complex, there's practically no such thing as a good act.  Chidi and the almond milk is Exhibit A.  You think you're doing good, by not eating an animal byproduct, which harms the environment (methane output), but in doing so, you're harming the environment in other ways (ridiculous water usage).  At least I think that's what she was going for. 

[Guest]

There was a lot of discussion about Brent at the end of the last episode. I paused when the were showing the graph of his points. It said:

Top Recent Point Additions

- Felt genuine remorse for the first time. 

- Nearly expresses genuine remorse for the first time. 

2 hours ago, SomeTameGazelle said:

Judge Gen's ruling that humans were somehow the problem with the system was bizarre and shocking. I was entertained but can't make logical sense of it. Her intent was to obliterate all humans both living and dead, correct? So on the one hand stopping the torture of everyone in the Bad Place would I guess be good, but then I am at a loss to understand the rest of it.

I think it’s completely logical if you view humans as something beneath you like cockroaches. The judge may be entertained by humans but she doesn’t have any emotional attachment to humanity. Trying to fix the system means they would have design a new system and reevaluate every person sent to the bad place. Starting over from scratch is a lot easier from that view point. 

Edited November 16, 2019 by Guest

[angora]

1 hour ago, Schweedie said:

"People improve when they get external love and support. How can we hold it against them when they don't?" I would just like to say this is one of my favourite lines from the whole show so far.

I loved that too. Weirdly, it reminded me of a line from Frozen: "People make bad choices if they're mad or scared or stressed, / But throw a little love their way and you'll bring out their best."

Good on everyone in this episode. Loved Michael's defense of humanity, loved Team Cockroach and Janet having funerals for each other (and bringing frozen Chidi along!), and loved Bad Janet coming through in a clinch.

[Lebanna]

After this episode, I think Earth is going to turn out to be the Good Place and we the viewers are all  now Team Cockroach.
 

Because this thing is inspired and inspiring.

[Lugal]

55 minutes ago, SomeTameGazelle said:

Judge Gen's ruling that humans were somehow the problem with the system was bizarre and shocking. I was entertained but can't make logical sense of it. Her intent was to obliterate all humans both living and dead, correct? So on the one hand stopping the torture of everyone in the Bad Place would I guess be good, but then I am at a loss to understand the rest of it.

I think it was more a matter of things have just gotten too complicated and the whole operating system they put in place suddenly has become nonfunctional, or in other words, the universe crashed.  So the best thing they can do reboot and start over completely, which unfortunately means erasing every human that ever existed.

[PurpleGirl43]

The Judge singing ‘Crossroad’ by Bone Thugs and Harmony, while she was preparing to push the reboot button was hilarious! Loved the Jaguar attire for Jason’s funeral as well.  
 

[Terrafamilia]

Not a big matter, I just found it interesting, but instead of doing a cut à la Janet they explicitly showed Gen popping out of the scene when she went into the void(s) in search of her button.

[foxfreakinmulder]

On ‎11‎/‎14‎/‎2019 at 7:13 PM, Linny said:

I adored this so much I can't do much right now except flail about how perfect every detail was. Eleanor calling Tahani her best friend! Jason doing cannonballs (going out of the world as he came in it)! Tahani in sweatpants for the very first (and probably last) time! "We're glue." "I don't think any of you is using that right." Eleanor gripping Chidi's hand at the threat of annihilation! Bad Janet coming through and joining the fight to save humanity! DISCO JANET!

I loved all of this ^^ and more.

Damn I'm going to miss this little show :-(

[secnarf]

8 hours ago, chaifan said:

OK, I like Michael's point that "bad" people can be redeemed if they are influenced by "good" people.  But I can't figure out how to factor that in to deciding who gets into the good place vs. bad place.

I think they will ultimately end up expanding the original experiment - surround people in a good environment and see who improves.

[HunterHunted]

5 hours ago, SomeTameGazelle said:

Judge Gen's ruling that humans were somehow the problem with the system was bizarre and shocking. I was entertained but can't make logical sense of it. Her intent was to obliterate all humans both living and dead, correct? So on the one hand stopping the torture of everyone in the Bad Place would I guess be good, but then I am at a loss to understand the rest of it.

5 hours ago, chaifan said:

Anyways, on to your comment about Gen's ruling.  I get it (sort of).  The reason it's humans' fault is because we've made life so difficult & complex, there's practically no such thing as a good act.  Chidi and the almond milk is Exhibit A.  You think you're doing good, by not eating an animal byproduct, which harms the environment (methane output), but in doing so, you're harming the environment in other ways (ridiculous water usage).  At least I think that's what she was going for. 

5 hours ago, Dani said:

I think it’s completely logical if you view humans as something beneath you like cockroaches. The judge may be entertained by humans but she doesn’t have any emotional attachment to humanity. Trying to fix the system means they would have design a new system and reevaluate every person sent to the bad place. Starting over from scratch is a lot easier from that view point. 

4 hours ago, Lugal said:

I think it was more a matter of things have just gotten too complicated and the whole operating system they put in place suddenly has become nonfunctional, or in other words, the universe crashed.  So the best thing they can do reboot and start over completely, which unfortunately means erasing every human that ever existed.

After 15 seasons of watching God on Supernatural be a capricious petulant omnipotent toddler, I'm not the least bit surprised Judge Gen decide to reboot the world. Supernatural's God is way worse than Judge Gen. Gen was going to reboot the world. Supernatural's God just creates a universe, screws it up, and moves on to another one. He's the irresponsible child who breaks his toys and abandons them on the street. Had he not accidentally screwed up, he'd be doing that right now. And now back to our regularly scheduled Good Place...

Gen's plan to reboot isn't so out of left field. Most immortals spend no time with humans except when torturing them. They don't get to truly know any single human even if they like and dislike human things. Immortals view humans much more academically. It's like anthropologists and archaeologists studying a foreign or long dead culture. You can admire parts of it while still being repulsed by their practice of human sacrifice. Furthermore, Team Cockroach has done a great job at figuring out what the issue is and when the problems started arising. Rebooting probably sounds easier than trying to figure out a system going forward and what to do about those people who might have gone to the Good Place under the new system.

[arc]

7 hours ago, Dani said:

I think it’s completely logical if you view humans as something beneath you like cockroaches. The judge may be entertained by humans but she doesn’t have any emotional attachment to humanity. Trying to fix the system means they would have design a new system and reevaluate every person sent to the bad place. Starting over from scratch is a lot easier from that view point. 

Starting over with a new system means you hopefully won’t encounter the fatal flaws of the old system. Just plain old starting over is just punting the problem for a couple of billion years. And it’s not even running out the clock because the whole universe starts over.

[Guest]

6 minutes ago, arc said:

Starting over with a new system means you hopefully won’t encounter the fatal flaws of the old system. Just plain old starting over is just punting the problem for a couple of billion years. And it’s not even running out the clock because the whole universe starts over.

Only if they use the existing point system in the re-booted world. Starting over gives them plenty of time to come up with a new system without the pressure of figuring out what to do with the humans who are already in the afterlife.  

[Notwisconsin]

On 11/14/2019 at 10:59 PM, phalange said:

I can’t say I disagree with Judge Gen wanting to cancel Earth and start from scratch, however, given, well...everything. Just humans though; other species haven’t done anything wrong.

How do you know that? The Guinea Worm and parasitic wasps are really bad. Then there are cowbirds. If you watch nature shows, you see a bunch of animals doing deliberately bad things to one another.

[LBS]

Was it ever revealed that Jason’s mom died of cancer?  It made me think more on his happy go lucky naivety combined with his aggressive impulsive control issues.  Watching your parent  go through cancer is horrendous (unfortunately from personal experience).  I thought it was nice bookend to what Michael was saying that you need people to help you be good.

Also D’Arcy Carden must get nominated for an Emmy.

[Harvey]

25 minutes ago, LBS said:

Was it ever revealed that Jason’s mom died of cancer? 

No this was the first time it was mentioned Tahani even said that Jason rarely talks about his mother.

[phalange]

1 hour ago, Notwisconsin said:

How do you know that? The Guinea Worm and parasitic wasps are really bad. Then there are cowbirds. If you watch nature shows, you see a bunch of animals doing deliberately bad things to one another.

But other species don't deliberately do bad things; they're just following a biological imperative. They don't have the higher order brain function to understand right and wrong. Parasites don't infect a host because they hate it the way humans commit genocide purposely to kill other humans for looking or believing differently. Predator animals hunt their prey for food, not because they want to trophy hunt endangered species for sport the way humans do.

It's why yelling at a dog for chewing your shoes or a cat for clawing your couch does no good and only serves to scare them. Non-human animals don't understand what "bad" means and they weren't destroying your stuff intentionally so punishment serves no purpose. Only humans are capable of understanding the concept of morality but still choosing to do immoral things anyway.

(And to clarify, I'm not ragging on animals here; I'm absolutely certain that my cats are smarter than people. 😉 I'm just saying other species can't be held to human standards [or Judge Gen's standard] of morality.)

[chaifan]

51 minutes ago, phalange said:

But other species don't deliberately do bad things; they're just following a biological imperative. They don't have the higher order brain function to understand right and wrong.

You're not a cat owner, are you?  I had a cat that would jump onto my dresser, or coffee table, or whatever, look me straight in the eye, hold up a paw and swipe off some random object onto the floor.  Oh, she knew perfectly well what she was doing and that it was bad.  She knew.

[Notwisconsin]

1 hour ago, phalange said:

But other species don't deliberately do bad things; they're just following a biological imperative. They don't have the higher order brain function to understand right and wrong. Parasites don't infect a host because they hate it the way humans commit genocide purposely to kill other humans for looking or believing differently. Predator animals hunt their prey for food, not because they want to trophy hunt endangered species for sport the way humans do.

I'm pretty sure that quite a few other species do. Lions, Chimps and elephants, for example. Look at emperor penguin documentaries.

[wingster55]

On 11/14/2019 at 10:13 PM, Linny said:

Eleanor calling Tahani her best friend!

If only we saw this on a consistent basis. 
This show’s refusal to mix up the pairings more often is its worst flaw. Especially as those pairings involve poc (and the only woc character). Like when it was Jason’s turn to eulogize Eleanor, it would have been nice if there had been something to draw from instead of the writers realizing there’s nothing. Or even Chidi having so few scenes with both Tahani and Jason. 

[BobH]

The revelation about Jason's mother kind of makes me wonder about the previous time he mentioned her, where he told a story about him and his mother robbing the pet store where she was the manager together. "Long story short, it was all a dream". So he has dreams about committing felonies with his dead mother?

Edited November 16, 2019 by BobH

[Dowel Jones]

2 hours ago, Notwisconsin said:

I'm pretty sure that quite a few other species do. Lions, Chimps and elephants, for example. Look at emperor penguin documentaries.

It's "bad" only because humans define it as bad.  Animals do what they do because of their nature.

[Lazlo]

I was a little shocked the show acknowledged that Eleanor's one sided letching over Tahani could be a bit problematic.  

[arc]

11 hours ago, Dani said:

Only if they use the existing point system in the re-booted world. Starting over gives them plenty of time to come up with a new system without the pressure of figuring out what to do with the humans who are already in the afterlife.  

I guess I don’t see the problem with pausing the afterlife indefinitely while they figure it out. Any new dead person could also be added to the pause.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, arc said:

I guess I don’t see the problem with pausing the afterlife indefinitely while they figure it out. Any new dead person could also be added to the pause.

It’s just more complicated from Gen’s point of view. I’m not saying that it’s the right solution but that it is logical if don’t particularly care about humanity. Especially since the Good Place committee would be useless. 

Now that I think about it the committee could be a big reason why the system is so messed up. Based on what the said to Shawn they are not exactly strong advocates for humanity.

“And Shawn, before we even find out what happened, we want you to know we're willing to give up all our leverage, compromise, and meet you halfway.”

[clack]

Throughout the previous 7 episodes, we never did get a precise sense on what traits the new subjects needed to improve upon.

Something like, Simone needs to become less judgemental, Brent more self-aware of his own shortcomings, John needs to mind his own business and respect the privacy of others. Instead we got the overly generalized motive that they just must become better people, which could mean almost anything.

So, when we saw the final scorecard, I had no idea of how or why. Why was Brent so much worse than he was when alive? Simone struck me as about the same as when we saw her on Earth. Was she really 40 points better, or whatever the score was? And wasn't John, when push came to shove, still a tattletale? Why did he get so much points?

[theatremouse]

I really liked the end of this one because all I've been thinking recently is Chidi is being hella decisive lately. So it felt very much: yes! now is the time! I completely followed Eleanor's thought process, and it's not just biased by her feelings about him. It's very bookendy.

[Affogato]

23 hours ago, SomeTameGazelle said:

Judge Gen's ruling that humans were somehow the problem with the system was bizarre and shocking. I was entertained but can't make logical sense of it. Her intent was to obliterate all humans both living and dead, correct? So on the one hand stopping the torture of everyone in the Bad Place would I guess be good, but then I am at a loss to understand the rest of it.

I think she feels fixing the current mess isn’t worth it. Easier to start over and do better next time. Like with burned cookies. You can scrape the burned bits but that is a lot of work and they still will taste burned. 

Edited November 16, 2019 by Affogato

[Sarah 103]

11 hours ago, LBS said:

Was it ever revealed that Jason’s mom died of cancer?  It made me think more on his happy go lucky naivety combined with his aggressive impulsive control issues.  Watching your parent  go through cancer is horrendous (unfortunately from personal experience).

I think what you said about Jason's personality is important. Jason, despite his criminal past, is fundamentally a sweet guy. As far as I know, he never intentionally killed or injured someone. Most of it was property damange, which is bad and serious but not in the same category as worse/more severe crimes. Jason has redeeming qualities, which we didn't see any of in Brent.  

I loved that Tahani's answer of how to kill time while waiting for the judge's verdict was a series of parties. She wanted to give everyone (except for Chidi) a way to say goodbye and say how much they each meant to each other. It was a lovely gesture.

Elenaor couldn't find the words during Chidi's funeral but knew exactly how she felt about him and what his best qualities were after hearing all of humanity was about to destroyed. Her defense of Chidi was her eulogy. 

[Harvey]

3 hours ago, clack said:

 And wasn't John, when push came to shove, still a tattletale? Why did he get so much points?

While screen time was limited, we did see Tahani try and try again with reforming John, making him more compassionate and less mean-spirited. They show adressed that his behavior stemmed from feeling left out, he needed human connection to improve. Think back to this dialouge from the show:
 

Quote

Eleanor: Anyone interested in a status report?

Tahani: I win! I mean, I’ll start. I have made massive progress with John.

Eleanor: Great. Is he gonna join Chidi’s class?

Tahani: Philosophy may not be his way forward. Genuine human connection shall be his course of study. And first up on the syllabus, he and I will be unironically watching the Britney Spears movie “Crossroads” together. And you’ll have to trust me, this is a huge step in the right direction.

[Guest]

50 minutes ago, Harvey said:

While screen time was limited, we did see Tahani try and try again with reforming John, making him more compassionate and less mean-spirited. They show adressed that his behavior stemmed from feeling left out, he needed human connection to improve. Think back to this dialouge from the show:
 

Quote

Eleanor: Anyone interested in a status report?

Tahani: I win! I mean, I’ll start. I have made massive progress with John.

Eleanor: Great. Is he gonna join Chidi’s class?

Tahani: Philosophy may not be his way forward. Genuine human connection shall be his course of study. And first up on the syllabus, he and I will be unironically watching the Britney Spears movie “Crossroads” together. And you’ll have to trust me, this is a huge step in the right direction.

I love that the show adds the little moment that become more meaningful when you rewatch. 

There was also that line in Chip Driver Mystery that showed that John was aware of is weaknesses and was trying to be better. 

Quote

Oh, well, ever since I arrived here, Tahani helped me realize that gossip was an unhealthy way for me to boost my self-esteem.

[clack]

1 hour ago, Harvey said:

While screen time was limited, we did see Tahani try and try again with reforming John, making him more compassionate and less mean-spirited. They show adressed that his behavior stemmed from feeling left out, he needed human connection to improve. 
 

John gossips as a way to connect with the world of celebrity. Becoming a part of that world, which he does by becoming friends with Tahini, is what he has always wanted, and what gossip has substituted for.

 He has mocked the glamorous because he wanted to be one, and now that he has, he no longer has any urge for mockery. I don't see that as praiseworthy.

What would have been worthy of points is if he'd become friends with Chidi and enlarged his interests to include the world of the mind.

Edited November 17, 2019 by clack

[Zuleikha]

And wasn't John, when push came to shove, still a tattletale? Why did he get so much points?

He kept the secret about Jason for a very long time, and he only revealed it when it was directly relevant to everyone.

What would have been worthy of points is if he'd become friends with Chidi and enlarged his interests to include the world of the mind.

But he was part of Chidi's group. Which was one of many things never explained about how this year went on.

However, when push came to shove, he still chose his self-interest over helping someone in dire need, so I don't know. Maybe that will come up next episode because that was a big enough deal to me that I don't like the idea it will be meaningless. 

Based on what the show gave us, I think Chidi, John, and Brent should have improved. But Simone should have dropped points. She appeared to be a much worse person in the Good Place than on Earth, in part because she never truly bought into any of it as real. 

I don't like the conceit of the Good Place people being ineffective idiots. I don't think that makes sense or is necessary for a good place. I think it buys into a silly framing that niceness, kindness, empathy, etc. has to equal weak and pushovers.

[bros402]

15 hours ago, BobH said:

The revelation about Jason's mother kind of makes me wonder about the previous time he mentioned her, where he told a story about him and his mother robbing the pet store where she was the manager together. "Long story short, it was all a dream". So he has dreams about committing felonies with his dead mother?

Don't think about it as committing felonies, think of it this way: He had dreams about spending time with his mother - doing the things he did with his dad.

[Nordly Beaumont]

Phoebe is the one "Friend" who does belong in hell!

[Black Knight]

On 11/15/2019 at 12:23 PM, chaifan said:

I'm just pointing out that the current problem is that no one ever qualifies for the Good Place.  With the "possibility of redemption" theory, the problem reverses - no one will ever get sent to the Bad Place. 

The reverse is not necessarily a problem. Whether it is depends on one's belief system.

Sending people to the Bad Place means that you must arbitrarily set a point at which potential no longer matters, because there is always the potential to change. It was the problem I had with Tahani's test, which she failed but would have passed if she had been able to re-take it. It's demonstrated again here with Brent, who if he had had two more seconds to complete his sentence to Chidi and thus go from "nearly expressed genuine remorse for the first time" to "expressed genuine remorse for the first time" would have landed in green. The group had wasted the entire year taking the wrong approach with Brent.

Judge Gen wanting to deal with the problem by simply erasing all of humanity past and present and starting over seems shocking, but makes sense from her perspective. It's just that her perspective is appalling. It shows she doesn't truly view humans as real in any substantial sense. In her god-like perspective they're like ants, so not worth the work it would take her to redo the system.

So it seems that the show should open this up to whether supernatural beings should get off scot-free. I mean, if one wants to argue that some humans should go to the Bad Place, well, why should the demons be free of judgment? They're horrible, but they're not being tortured for it. They're pretty happy from all we've seen of them. (Well, Shawn torments some of them, but not for being evil - for being incompetent at their job of being evil.) The Judge turned out to be heartless, willing to wipe out even the humans who are in the Good Place because, well, it's just too much work for her to fix the system, even though she has all eternity and it's her job to have the judging be correct. The beings on the Good Place committee have a problem in that they're so caught up in being nice and following the rules that they'll allow terrible things to happen - it's reminiscent of Chidi's indecisiveness. So we've got all these beings who are not following the standards that humanity are expected to follow.

Why? Well, maybe it all comes down to a system that allows a Bad Place to exist and says that at a certain arbitrary point humans should be sent there. So you've got to have beings who enjoy torture, to run the Bad Place and torment the humans sent there. You've got to have beings who don't view humans as anything real, in order to pass a final judgment and thus turn their back on a human's potential. And you've got to have beings who are kind, to run the Good Place and make it nice for humans sent there, yet so concerned about rules that they won't argue against having a Bad Place where people are tortured. So going by the points system, none of these beings deserve to be anywhere other than in the Bad Place being tormented.

Gen is wrong to say the problem is humanity. The problem starts at the top, with her, the demons, and the angels, and with whomever has placed them in charge of all this. The original four humans are better people than all of them.

[Blakeston]

If anyone was wondering what the Moby reference was all about (with Janet saying that Moby spoke at Tahani's funeral and claimed something, and Tahani cutting Janet off before Janet could say what it was), this article should serve as an explanation of what the writers were referring to.

I'm so glad they explained Chidi's jacked body. I don't really buy that someone could get that physique just from doing a bunch of push-ups, but I guess I can fanwank that Chidi went further than that, and believed that extremely targeted strength training and wolfing down protein powder is part of an ethical life.

And count me in as someone who doesn't see how Simone got any better over the course of the experiment.

[whiporee]

5 hours ago, Black Knight said:

The reverse is not necessarily a problem. Whether it is depends on one's belief system.

Sending people to the Bad Place means that you must arbitrarily set a point at which potential no longer matters, because there is always the potential to change. It was the problem I had with Tahani's test, which she failed but would have passed if she had been able to re-take it. It's demonstrated again here with Brent, who if he had had two more seconds to complete his sentence to Chidi and thus go from "nearly expressed genuine remorse for the first time" to "expressed genuine remorse for the first time" would have landed in green. The group had wasted the entire year taking the wrong approach with Brent.

Judge Gen wanting to deal with the problem by simply erasing all of humanity past and present and starting over seems shocking, but makes sense from her perspective. It's just that her perspective is appalling. It shows she doesn't truly view humans as real in any substantial sense. In her god-like perspective they're like ants, so not worth the work it would take her to redo the system.

So it seems that the show should open this up to whether supernatural beings should get off scot-free. I mean, if one wants to argue that some humans should go to the Bad Place, well, why should the demons be free of judgment? They're horrible, but they're not being tortured for it. They're pretty happy from all we've seen of them. (Well, Shawn torments some of them, but not for being evil - for being incompetent at their job of being evil.) The Judge turned out to be heartless, willing to wipe out even the humans who are in the Good Place because, well, it's just too much work for her to fix the system, even though she has all eternity and it's her job to have the judging be correct. The beings on the Good Place committee have a problem in that they're so caught up in being nice and following the rules that they'll allow terrible things to happen - it's reminiscent of Chidi's indecisiveness. So we've got all these beings who are not following the standards that humanity are expected to follow.

Why? Well, maybe it all comes down to a system that allows a Bad Place to exist and says that at a certain arbitrary point humans should be sent there. So you've got to have beings who enjoy torture, to run the Bad Place and torment the humans sent there. You've got to have beings who don't view humans as anything real, in order to pass a final judgment and thus turn their back on a human's potential. And you've got to have beings who are kind, to run the Good Place and make it nice for humans sent there, yet so concerned about rules that they won't argue against having a Bad Place where people are tortured. So going by the points system, none of these beings deserve to be anywhere other than in the Bad Place being tormented.

Gen is wrong to say the problem is humanity. The problem starts at the top, with her, the demons, and the angels, and with whomever has placed them in charge of all this. The original four humans are better people than all of them.

That's a great synopsis. Which is why I think that we're still on the prank show. 

The overall problem is that nothing really makes sense. It doesn't fit with Schurr's worldview; it doesn't even fit within the rules we've been told. And there are still six episodes left. 

So I think there's something else at play here. Every time our heroes get close to a win, they lose. Doesn't that feel like a nice bit of torture? We've been told no one has made TGP for five centuries, but suddenly Mindy makes TMP? That Eleanor had passed Gen's test and was on her way to the TGP if she hadn't made a deal to stick with the others? Why is there a Disco Janet if no one had made TGP in the 500 years previous? For that matter, why did our Janet make it sound like a surprise who wasn't in TGP -- she should have known no one they'd every even heard of was there. Janet wasn't in on the original torture, but she sure played a role in it, one that she could have easily avoided. And while we're on the subject, why are there so many Janets, and why do they sort of look like a contemporary one but not exactly the same? Janet's vest outfit would have been scandalous in the 1400s (or the 200s BC) -- why do they all look like they are 21st century receptionists? 

The one thing I learned from this episode is there's something else going on. I know I'm a broken record, but I actually have enough faith in this writer's room that it can't all be this discombobulated. By any definition, next week would HAVE to be the series finale, because they'll come up with a plan that works and everything turns out okay. 

But there are six episodes left. So there's something else going on. I'm actually startign to think it's Janet-related, but I don't know. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

On 11/15/2019 at 11:59 AM, Chaos Theory said:

Brent is an entitled rich white guy who probably had his family pay his way into college.   He’s probably never had to actually “work” for anything in his life.  

Hey, he earned his spot at Princeton, just like his father and his father before him!

[possibilities]

On 11/16/2019 at 5:28 PM, Affogato said:

I think she feels fixing the current mess isn’t worth it. Easier to start over and do better next time. Like with burned cookies. You can scrape the burned bits but that is a lot of work and they still will taste burned. 

For now on, I am going to think of people as burnt cookies. I like it.

Since the very beginning of Season 1, I've been struck by how bureaucratic this universe is. Gen's decision was exactly the kind of dehumanized response that comes from a system that has no soul.

I have no idea where this is headed, and not even any ideas about where I hope it's headed, and that's a first! I like it.

[aradia22]

I'm curious about the Who Got Better numbers. They're percentages. So instead of seeing the positive net of their good deeds or negative net of their bad deeds, it was more like percent change. I think that explains why John's number was high, because he started worse off than Chidi and Simone.

LOL. "Call up Elizabeth Holmes. No! Henry Kissinger. No! Pewdiepie..."

Wow. 'You won. Earth is cancelled.' To be fair, that's probably how omnipotent beings would think. 

Woo! Go, Janets! And Disco Janet was better than I could have ever expected.

We're moving now. I'm excited. Wake him up!

[aradia22]

Quote

The way I figured it was that Brent was bad on Earth, but he was restricted by what he could actually do.  In The Good Place, he was no longer restricted.  He could write and publish a ridiculous book, he could ask for and receive a crazy decked out SUV, he could do whatever he wanted and get whatever he wanted - that made him a worse person than he had been on Earth.  Until the end.

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See that’s the thing.   It depends on your definition of “bad”.   Brent is an entitled rich white guy who probably had his family pay his way into college.   He’s probably never had to actually “work” for anything in his life.   Even his friends were bought and paid for but at the same time never actually getting any of that Outside positive reinforcement that Michael was talking about.   So it must have been one bad place of a shock to be cast in with a group of people who werent impressed with his privileged upbringing.

I think he was genuinely shocked and hurt that no one liked his book or that he wasn’t just sent to the Best Place.

All this doesn’t make him a bad guy.   

Maybe everyone else is just more optimistic than I am. I'm pretty sure Brent probably did a lot of bad things on Earth. At a high enough level of privilege, you aren't hampered by laws or HR departments or the opinions of people you see as beneath you. I don't think he was more restricted on Earth and less restricted when he had Janet. I think it was probably about even but different.

Hmn... well, is racism and sexism still bad if you're in a group of white men who aren't offended by what you say? The thing is... real world Brents ARE bad guys. His plastics business probably has factories with unsafe working conditions and pays minimum wage and is anti-union. It's probably also royally forking up the environment as there's a big problem with over-manufacturing plastic products that can't be recycled. And his company probably lobbies for recycling campaigns and lack of government regulation so people will keep buying things instead of reducing their spending and reusing what they have becasue that's how his company makes money. He has probably sexually harrassed colleagues and molested some women. Real world Brents give money to terrible platforms and politicians. And that's just a baseline. They get worse.

[clack]

7 minutes ago, aradia22 said:

Maybe everyone else is just more optimistic than I am. I'm pretty sure Brent probably did a lot of bad things on Earth. At a high enough level of privilege, you aren't hampered by laws or HR departments or the opinions of people you see as beneath you. I don't think he was more restricted on Earth and less restricted when he had Janet. I think it was probably about even but different.

Hmn... well, is racism and sexism still bad if you're in a group of white men who aren't offended by what you say? The thing is... real world Brents ARE bad guys. His plastics business probably has factories with unsafe working conditions and pays minimum wage and is anti-union. It's probably also royally forking up the environment as there's a big problem with over-manufacturing plastic products that can't be recycled. And his company probably lobbies for recycling campaigns and lack of government regulation so people will keep buying things instead of reducing their spending and reusing what they have becasue that's how his company makes money. He has probably sexually harrassed colleagues and molested some women. Real world Brents give money to terrible platforms and politicians. And that's just a baseline. They get worse.

That's a lot of "probably"s.

[aradia22]

Quote

That's a lot of "probably"s.

But it's inferred from everything the show has told us about Brent. I could have assumed more but I didn't. I feel like they couldn't detail everything or he would seem completely irredeemable. But Brent is not just some hapless privileged guy who could have been a better person but was a little elitist with some retrograde views. That Brent would be a liberal almond milk Brent. A guy who thought he wasn't such a bad person while not doing much to help anyone else. An Undercover Boss kind of Brent. But that's not who they wrote. They wrote a Brent who is in some kind of materials business, who has complained about "political correctness," who thinks of Janet as a secretary and sexually harasses her, who repeatedly ignored how his behavior was hurting others until Chidi finally snapped at him, etc. And it seems like the writers' are taking out their frustration about this specific politic moment in the show. 

[Harvey]

6 minutes ago, aradia22 said:

But it's inferred from everything the show has told us about Brent. I could have assumed more but I didn't. I feel like they couldn't detail everything or he would seem completely irredeemable. But Brent is not just some hapless privileged guy who could have been a better person but was a little elitist with some retrograde views. That Brent would be a liberal almond milk Brent. A guy who thought he wasn't such a bad person while not doing much to help anyone else. An Undercover Boss kind of Brent. But that's not who they wrote. They wrote a Brent who is in some kind of materials business, who has complained about "political correctness," who thinks of Janet as a secretary and sexually harasses her, who repeatedly ignored how his behavior was hurting others until Chidi finally snapped at him, etc. And it seems like the writers' are taking out their frustration about this specific politic moment in the show. 

You have to remember, the 4 humans the bad place brought in had to be on the same general level of badness as the original four. So while yes, Brent mentions burying HR complaints, by that rule there should be some lines he didn't cross. Like sexual assault.

It's like how Eleanor did that dress bitch fiasco and sold fake medicine to people, but she never physically assaulted someone.

Edited November 18, 2019 by Harvey

[Guest]

48 minutes ago, aradia22 said:

Maybe everyone else is just more optimistic than I am. I'm pretty sure Brent probably did a lot of bad things on Earth. At a high enough level of privilege, you aren't hampered by laws or HR departments or the opinions of people you see as beneath you. I don't think he was more restricted on Earth and less restricted when he had Janet. I think it was probably about even but different.

Hmn... well, is racism and sexism still bad if you're in a group of white men who aren't offended by what you say? The thing is... real world Brents ARE bad guys. His plastics business probably has factories with unsafe working conditions and pays minimum wage and is anti-union. It's probably also royally forking up the environment as there's a big problem with over-manufacturing plastic products that can't be recycled. And his company probably lobbies for recycling campaigns and lack of government regulation so people will keep buying things instead of reducing their spending and reusing what they have becasue that's how his company makes money. He has probably sexually harrassed colleagues and molested some women. Real world Brents give money to terrible platforms and politicians. And that's just a baseline. They get worse.

Well if one almost act of genuine remorse was enough to counteract one year of bad behavior  he couldn’t have been that much worse than he was on Earth. 

Although the cumulative nature of the points system means Brent didn’t actually need to be worse during the experiment. The results just say that he did more bad then good. When they showed Brent’s points the slope seemed to be constant. So he was consistently a bad person who keep digging himself into a hole more and more every day.

[Dowel Jones]

On 11/17/2019 at 12:57 PM, Black Knight said:

Judge Gen wanting to deal with the problem by simply erasing all of humanity past and present and starting over seems shocking, but makes sense from her perspective.

If I remember my long lost catechism lessons from childhood Catholicism, that's exactly the plan.  At some point there will be a mighty battle, and God will destroy all the demons that he has cast out of heaven, and all of humanity will be expressed out of one of two doors.  End of story.  It was implied that Earth, no longer needed by now, would also disappear, but I don't recall a mention that it all would start over.

[aradia22]

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It's like how Eleanor did that dress bitch fiasco and sold fake medicine to people, but she never physically assaulted someone.

Is that true? When Michael pulled up one of those hologram screens, I vaguely remember her hitting someone but it might have just been like 'threw biscuits at a Red Lobster waiter.' 

[Guest]

22 minutes ago, aradia22 said:

Is that true? When Michael pulled up one of those hologram screens, I vaguely remember her hitting someone but it might have just been like 'threw biscuits at a Red Lobster waiter.' 

Here’s that screen. Lots of verbal abuse but nothing physical. 

[aradia22]

@Dani 😂 Thanks! I think was combining "altercations with various youths selling various items at various fundraisers" and "waiters screamed at." I guess an altercation doesn't have to mean physical violence.