S04.E08: Years, Continents, Bloodshed

[marshmallows]

Wow what a big FUCK you to the fans this was. I was so excited for this since they announced it. I usually don't like revivals, but since they did decent with the movie (not as good as the original show), but still decent, I thought this was going to be great compelling tv, which it sadly was not.

This has left such a sour taste in my mouth that it wouldn't matter what they do next, because this marshmallow is out. What is even worse, is this ending has pretty much ruined the entire show for me.

Idk why RT would kill off Logan. Whether you like or dislike Logan or LoVe, you have to admit that Logan was a compelling, dynamic character to watch. All of his damage and how he dealt with that was so interesting.

Also, I feel like RT is forgetting that the only reason he got a movie a few years back is because the fans paid for it. And pretty sure that movie and the realization that the show did have a huge fan base is why RT was able to bring the show back for a s4 on hulu. Well guess what RT, most of those fans were Logan and LoVe fans. So you basically just shit all over the majority of your fan base. And I'm not saying you have to cater to crazy fan girls and boys like TVD (Vampire diaries) did, but it would probably be a good idea to not completely shit on them and piss them off. Now, I didn't watch when the show originally aired, so Idk how loud the LoVe fans were, but it was the early 2000s, so I imagine they weren't as loud as they could be today. And never once while I was watching the show did I feel like RT was caving into fan-service by putting Veronica and Logan together. They were together for maybe 4 episodes in s1, broken up for all of s2 until the end, together for maybe 8 episodes in s3 and didn't even end up together in the original show. So RT never really catered to the LoVe fans at all, so Idk why he thinks that was the case.  Logan wasn't even in all the episodes and sometimes when he appeared it was only for a scene or 2, so anyone including fans, RT, and KB who felt like it was the Logan Echolls show clearly made that up in their heads or was watching a completely different show than I was.

 I couldn't even cry over Logan's death because I was just so angry about how it all went down. Blowing him up like that was just sloppy and careless.

I'm also not saying I needed a happily ever after, but this was just a big slap in the face. I hate when writers are too lazy to write a functional/dysfunctional relationship. On and off again or bitter widows are basically plot devices for piss poor writing bc the writers do not know how to actually write a relationship. I would have much rather watched Logan and Veronica deal with their relationship problems. But may I add, these relationship problems seemed convoluted. I read the books, and they seemed to be in pretty stable, loving relationship for like 5 years and now in the show their relationship is back to a dysfunctional mess. I don't get that. In the books, the main issue was how long distance is hard, not Veronica wanting some hot-headed obligatory jackass and makes fun of a well-rounded Logan. 

Also seeing where RT thought Logan was too much focus, so why not just do it like in the books, where he basically just cameos in on skype and may appear in Neptune for an episode or 2? He didn't have to be a major focus, I mean none of the other side characters were.  Or if they just hate the ship that much, why not just break them up? Clearly Logan had out-grown Veronica anyways. (I always thought he was emotionally superior to her anyways, but I know most fans didn't think that.) He could have left her at the alter like some of y'all mentioned bc he realized he wanted a true partner and not someone who is just half-there. That is very realistic. Then off of that RT would have the choice to bring him back at a later time if wanted to do that or not. What he did is so final and a true disservice to the character of Logan, JD, Veronica Mars, and the fans.

I have a lot more thoughts, but I need to go to bed and this is already lengthy.

Let's just leave it at, I wish hadn't watched this season. Actually, I really wish it had never been renewed for a s4 and I truly hope there is no s5 bc RT and KB don't deserve it after shitting all over Logan and the rest of the cast.

[spaceghostess]

7 hours ago, weathered1 said:

There were many good options here, and far better ones, than the one RT chose, but he wanted to burn the relationship and its fandom to the ground, which is exactly what he did. 

If there is another season, I sincerely hope that the viewers who stick around enjoy it. For me, though, VM has been ruined and I'm officially done with it. 

 

ITA that RT intended to burn the relationship to the ground so that he could "free" himself creatively, but I don't think he intended to burn the LoVe fandom to the ground. I think he thinks the majority of viewers will get over this and follow him to season 5. Which just goes to show exactly how far up his own ass he presently resides.

Edited July 24, 2019 by spaceghostess
articles

[Jediknight]

2 hours ago, stagmania said:

Veronica in this season is a shitty friend to Wallace. She displays clear distaste for his domestic life, expresses little interest in his child or his wife and can’t even be bothered to pay attention and be engaged in the little time she spends with him.

I think that was a victim of the shortened season.  In the first episode Wallace mentions that Veronica buys Noah clothes, she says it was just one track suit, and Wallace disputes that.  Just a line showing that while money is tight Veronica, and they weren't able to show everything needed in this season, that Veronica did still love Wallace and loves his family.  She doesn't do the parties, but she loves the Fennells.

I do hate that the season ended without Veronica and Nicole making peace.  Would have been nice had Veronica mentioned that she was raped to Nicole.  I liked Nicole, and would have liked her to stick around.

[weathered1]

4 minutes ago, spaceghostess said:

ITA that RT intended to burn the relationship to the ground so that he could "free" himself creatively, but I don't think he intended to burn the LoVe fandom to the ground. I think he thinks the majority of viewers will get over this and follow him to season 5. Which just goes to show just how far up his own ass he presently resides.

I see what you're saying. He's clearly operating with a surplus of ego, but his comments have just been so pointed and patronizing to fans and so deliberately insulting to the LoVe fandom in particular that it seems to me that he's been outright expressing resentment of this portion of the viewership. I don't think he cares if he loses us especially since then he wouldn't have to deal with our so-called insistence on viewing "high school drama". I also think he believes that most viewers will be so drawn to his incredible, amazing writing (that's not at all hacky, misogynistic, and demonstrates a fundamental misunderstanding of both relationships and the human condition in general) and the adventures of downtrodden, cold as ice, loner Veronica that his new version of the show doesn't need us. (I think he's wrong.) 

I have been kind of idly wondering about what impact (if any) this backlash will have. RT has said that Logan is well and truly and most sincerely dead, but he also - whether intentionally or not - did leave himself wiggle room to get out of that (and to actually do so pretty easily).

I don't know if Hulu would particularly care, but let's just say that they dictate that a season 5 could partly revolve around his and KB's vision, but he would also have to undo the enormous mistake he made. Would he and/or KB just refuse those terms and, thus, VM is done forever? Would he acquiesce - having ostensibly (but not really) learned the lesson that viewers are sick and tired of showrunners treating us so shabbily and making such awful choices? If he did say that he'd undo the damage, would it then turn into a situation of be careful what you wish for in which he gleefully contrives of as many ways as possible of breaking the pairing up, ruining Logan, etc., just to punish the fans for "forcing" him to go against his wondrous vision? 

Again, I don't know if Hulu would care at all and/or if this backlash is just falling on deaf ears, but it's something to ponder. Or maybe my mind just can't fully wrap around the idea that RT did something so impossibly stupid and deliberately ruined the entire show for so many of us. 

[Jediknight]

16 minutes ago, weathered1 said:

I don't know if Hulu would particularly care, but let's just say that they dictate that a season 5 could partly revolve around his and KB's vision, but he would also have to undo the enormous mistake he made.

Letting Cobb live?  I'd be down if Hulu made him reverse that, and we got to see Cobb die, multiple times.

[General Days]

7 hours ago, Deevee45 said:

I know this may be an unpopular opinion, but I’ve felt (starting with the movie) that the snap, crackle and pop that was Logan/Jason Dohring just disappeared. I was not impressed with his acting in either the movie or season 4. I don’t know if it’s the scripts or him tbh, but he seemed very drab to me on the screen.  I wrote in a previous post that Rob and Kristen were not happy with the Logan character, so I wonder if all of this is related somehow. I was rewatching season 1, and he’s so good and alive on the screen, that the comparison is sad. 

Elsewhere, someone said that RT and KB thought Logan wasn't good enough for Veronica, so they turned him too good, made him boring,  then decided they had to ditch him. 

I don't think that's wrong. And I think JD, who's a pretty good actor when I see him in other stuff, didn't know what to do with neutered Logan, because the writers made him so bland. 

12 hours ago, spaceghostess said:

Well. I was enjoying this season so very much and then . . . kablooey.

As someone who'd been okay with the Logan/Veronica relationship--especially since the movie and this season made it clear that he'd really been working on himself--I was perfectly fine with them NOT getting hitched, but also interested to see if they could sustain a marriage. The Navy was the perfect excuse to have Logan away 80% of the time and we could have seen Veronica struggling with that or not, whatever. She'd still be on cases and I don't think marriage would have dulled her cynical edge overmuch. Blowing Logan up was pure selfishness on RT's part and shoots the whole franchise in the foot. Which I think he kinda wanted? But his "vision" for VM's future isn't sound.

RT goes on and on about "noir," but taking VM out of Neptune undercuts one of the genre's great conventions: the city (or town, in the case of Western noir) as a character and the detective's cohorts and nemeses woven into the fabric of that setting. The lawyers, the stoolies, the obstructive cops, the crappy P.I.s, the corrupt politicians, the tough guys; VM did such a fantastic job of establishing characters to represent all of these. WHY does RT think having Veronica start over with a clean slate in new place after new place would be the least bit appealing? Noir P.I.s may be loners, but they have networks they carefully cultivate and rely on to do their jobs. Itinerant Veronica will never develop a network anywhere, and I couldn't give fewer fucks about getting to know new people every week when I was happy as hell with the ones we already had and trusted RT to add compelling new characters as necessary. I've loved Veronica from minute one, but not even the strongest, most well-drawn hero/antihero can live in a vacuum. And that's what RT's new concept for the show would be asking her to do.

When I think "on the road," shows like Route 66*, The Fugitive, Kung Fu, and (bleargh) Highway to Heaven spring to mind. The only great (for a while) on-the-road show I can think of is The X Files,  which worked because of the chemistry of the leads and the fact that the setup allowed for overarching storylines and recurring characters. And then there's the cliche the majority of on-the-roads have in common: "Stranger arrives in town, touches lives, and leaves . . ." which, no fucking thanks.

ITA with the idea of keeping Veronica in Neptune to explore the ravages of gentrification. That could have been great. Instead, we get Logan gratuitously murdered to further an agenda that will wreck the best of what RT built. He seems to have pinned all his creative frustrations on the presence of one character, so he killed that guy in the service of a fucktarded creative plan. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face.

*Apologies for not italicizing titles--that function's not working for me for some reason.

ETA: Star Trek and other space shows in that tradition are also "on the roads" (to me), but they work because your city/network of characters is portable!

I  can understand if RT wants to write other relationships for Veronica, but then have Logan break up with her, because he wants all of her, but he understands she can't give him that. Then he can trot off with the Navy, and every season or two, they can have a torrid weekend. 

As for road shows, the most recent one that springs to mind for me is Supernatural. Its quality is debatable (I think it varies from season to season), but it's certainly got something VM never had -- longevity. 

You know what it also has? Relationships. There's Sam and Dean, of course, and for a long time there was also Bobby, and there's Cas. There was Crowley. The characters have a deep connection to each other, and that informs every case. 

Veronica solo, outside of Neptune? I love KB, and I particularly love her as VM, but I'm failing to see the appeal.

[KAOS Agent]

32 minutes ago, General Days said:

I think JD, who's a pretty good actor when I see him in other stuff, didn't know what to do with neutered Logan, because the writers made him so bland. 

He gave an interview where he basically admitted this. He didn't know what to do with a "good" guy who'd worked through his issues and become a fairly well adjusted person. He wasn't written as a dynamic character in S4, and he struggled to do a whole lot with it.

Killing Logan was meant to shut the LoVe fans up so the show could move on, which on some level I do understand (not the way it was handled, but the need to stop the madness of extreme fandom), but they made it pretty clear that the other characters in town weren't important either and we shouldn't care about them now. It seemed obvious that Tina Majorino wasn't at all interested in a glorified cameo because her conversation with Rob Thomas showed her that that would be it for Mac. There would be nothing for her in S5. This was a bridge season they were forced to do to get to what they really wanted. Regulars got to take a final bow and now we're supposed to move on with just Veronica.

[CarobCake]

Count me as another one of the season's casualties. I'm very sad because this used to be my favorite show. But I never bought the Logan 180 in the movies, and I didn't buy his character in this season either - too different from OG Logan, and I don't mean the temper. Something essential about him felt off since the movie.

Veronica seemed angrier than when she was 17 and everyone hated her... why exactly? Weevil was sad, Wallace was boring. 

I was willing to forgive it all for getting more stories with all these characters. But that explosion was BS and if Izombie is anything to go by, RT does not do well with case of the week.

You know what those 5 minutes were? They were heartbreaking. It's like when that guy you used to like finally says something that reveals how awful he is and you realize that that's the thing that'll make you fall out of love. That was my feeling watching those last 5 minutes, that cold dread, that feeling of "I'm done". Bye bye show, hope you're happy with your new fans. No, we can't still be friends. 

[Affogato]

5 hours ago, spaceghostess said:

ITA that RT intended to burn the relationship to the ground so that he could "free" himself creatively, but I don't think he intended to burn the LoVe fandom to the ground. I think he thinks the majority of viewers will get over this and follow him to season 5. Which just goes to show just how far up his own ass he presently resides.

I think the writers read a lot of fanfiction in preparation for this season. (If only they would research therapy or police procedure or california handgun law)  kB and JD even acted out a couple of scenes from fanfiction as part of the promotions.  A totally mature and put together Logan, surpassing Veronica in every way but still wanting her ( sometimes he has a real action hero girl as a platonic friend, so the best of both worlds!)  was not uncommon in the fics I read when I was exploring the, umm, fics associated with the show  

In these fics Veronica is often emotionlly teenage Veronica, even if she is older, stuck in her trauma, and begins the process of healing when she admits what she has looked for and needed was the guy who was there all along. She may still be a PI but it is clear it is mundane after their marriage and children, if that happens in the fics. 

This was pretty much the fanservice of death.  I think the idea was to give him the perfect sendoff and that what fandom ‘needed’ was to have that blow up in their face. Which is why Logan died the way he did  

——————-

I am not putting down fanfiction in any way, shape or form and I did read some VM fics that surpassed a lot of professional writing and cover a range of stories and attitudes towards the characters. 

I’m also not referring to any specific fic, I’m saying they wrote their idea of a fic and blew it up. 

Edited July 24, 2019 by Affogato
Overexplaining myself

[justmehere]

Most of the focus has been on the ending of the series, much of which I agree with, but there were other problems in the series that frustrated me. 

-I didn't care for the casual way they treated multiple beheadings, including idiotic thugs who acted on every rumor they heard. I can't remember - were the bodies buried? The police pretty much ignored the disappearance of King whatever-his-name-was, but I'd think multiple disappearances and/or headless bodies would merit some attention or even mention of such brutality. There was barely even any acknowledgement of Big Dick's death, nor any public mention of him being responsible for the first two bombings.

-I love Patton Oswalt, but I didn't need quite so much from his nerd group, not to mention the multiple back-and-forth nonsense of whether or not he was guilty and the many minutes of him denying his guilt over and over... and over.

-Too many characters. The senator and the interactions with the dead fiance's family felt almost pointless. I liked that Matty ended up with the ring, but there was too much time devoted to those other characters. All the excesses could have been trimmed to allow greater involvement of the familiar characters - but apparently marginalizing them was the point.

-It seemed weird to me that the hottest sex scene was a dream sequence. It was on another level from the ones with Logan. I suppose that says something. <snerk>

-The trope of someone finally finding happiness only to have sudden tragedy is weak. It was completely telegraphed that something would happen.

-This one isn't mine - I saw it in a comment elsewhere - but the bomb that killed Logan was way too convenient: The police would have confiscated Penn's bag and found the bomb. Or barring that somehow, the timing was too dependent on coincidence. Mid-day in Fiji? Why would Penn assume Veronica would be in her car right then? Likewise, it was too convenient that Logan went to move the car at that particular minute. So many other ways it could have gone, as many have mentioned.

-When show writers say it's boring to have a happy couple, I always want to ask if they've seen Friday Night Lights and Eric and Tammy Taylor. It can be done. They weren't perfect or sappy, and their marriage wasn't the only element of the show by a long shot. Yet they still managed to portray a loving, realistic marriage where the couple argues and disagrees and also supports each other through thick and thin. Those writers who say it can't be done should instead say that they can't do it.

-I agree with the earlier comments that Veronica can be really unlikable. I thought she was insufferable in season 3. And she can be quite cruel with all her wit. (Did she even thank Weevil for saving her? BTW, that off-screen rescue was just strange.) I also agree that she needs her community to balance her, and that having her go on the road as a solo act having random hookups sounds like it will only enhance her negative qualities. 

[blondiec0332]

43 minutes ago, justmehere said:

When show writers say it's boring to have a happy couple, I always want to ask if they've seen Friday Night Lights and Eric and Tammy Taylo

Rob Thomas was offered Friday Night Lights and he turned it down.  We can thank our lucky stars or who knows how that show would have turned out.

45 minutes ago, justmehere said:

and that having her go on the road as a solo act having random hookups sounds like it will only enhance her negative qualities. 

Anyone wanna bet the first scene of season five will be Veronica in bed with a guy her back to him saying you can leave now?

[krankydoodle]

5 hours ago, Jediknight said:

I do hate that the season ended without Veronica and Nicole making peace.  Would have been nice had Veronica mentioned that she was raped to Nicole.  I liked Nicole, and would have liked her to stick around.

I was also annoyed that we didn't see Weevil in the last episode. I wish he had been included in that post-time jump segment, possibly as one of the businesses that had been forced out, and with a moment showing he and Veronica had mended their relationship to some degree. A goodbye hug with Wallace would've been nice, too.

But ultimately, the way the show ended has soured me on the rest of the season and issues that I rolled with as they came up (like those in @justmehere's list) bother me more now. It'll be tough to rewatch the earlier seasons now, too, knowing that this is where we end up.

[Whimsy]

6 hours ago, marshmallows said:

Now, I didn't watch when the show originally aired, so Idk how loud the LoVe fans were, but it was the early 2000s, so I imagine they weren't as loud as they could be today. 

 I couldn't even cry over Logan's death because I was just so angry about how it all went down. Blowing him up like that was just sloppy and careless.

I really liked your whole post, but I cut down to just the couple of things I wanted to directly respond to.

First, I was a HUGE Buffy & Roswell fan.  I was a hard shipper of the couples on those shows.  I was in my mid-twenties so maybe a bit too old for all of that, lol.  When those shows ended I didn't have another show I felt passionately about until VM.  Then I became a hard core LoVe fan.  At that time I was on a site called Fan Forum.  Veronica Mars, and especially LoVe, was HUGE over there.  The LoVe fans were pretty vocal even then. Interesting side-note, Michael Muhney (Sheriff Lamb) posted over there occasionally.  It was fun.  

I also didn't cry or even tear up at Logan's death because I was, and am still to some extent, so thoroughly pissed off.  You, and many other posters here, listed many, many ways that Logan still could've either been written off (break-up) or just utilized minimally.  There was no need for this complete destruction of the character.

Someone mentioned back a couple of pages or so that the focus has been on JD and Logan because he died, but that really it's the end for all the characters.  This has really resonated with me and I am really sad for all of them.  The entire cast really loved VM and (for reasons unknown to me) RT.  They have agreed to come back for the movie and the revival only for him to kick them all to the curb.  Sure, the others could somehow pop up for a cameo, but it doesn't really sound like that's what RT is interested in.  

Also, the comment from RT and KB about the teenage drama is frustrating because who does he think the fans are??  I seriously doubt he's getting that many new fans.  The people who are watching are mostly those who started watching 15 years ago.  Guess what.  We've all grown up and matured. We would all go along for the ride of a mature Veronica Mars.  He didn't give us a mature Veronica Mars.  He gave us a mature everyone else except Veronica Mars. 

There have been so many wonderfully written and insightful posts here.  Someone mentioned that RT would frequent TWoP and I really, really hope he makes his way here because it's easy to dismiss fans who are just tweeting and not writing full, thoughtful and articulate posts.  

[blondiec0332]

3 minutes ago, Whimsy said:

Also, the comment from RT and KB about the teenage drama is frustrating because who does he think the fans are??

RT is the one who is responsible for VM. The show and the character and all the other characters.  It almost seems like  he is mad that fans love it so much.  Hey buddy you are the one who gave us something to love.  I get that he is a writer and wants to move on to new characters and blah blah blah but if his ego is such that VM fans will just simply follow him and love it as much as the original he is sadly mistaken.  Just ask Aaron Sorkin how well his post West Wing shows were received.

[luna1122]

I've said this a couple other places on FB, but Rob Thomas is the new Chris Carter. He created this beautiful thing we loved, and then he insists on destroying what we all fell in love with most  (not just Logan, but Neptune and family and friends). It IS all his creation, and sure, he can do what he wants, but the hubris here just might catch up to him.

[General Days]

1 hour ago, blondiec0332 said:

Anyone wanna bet the first scene of season five will be Veronica in bed with a guy her back to him saying you can leave now?

Or, takers could just flush their money down the toilet, instead. 

(In other words, I think you've nailed it.)

[Affogato]

9 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

While Logan is the biggest victim here, I feel really bad for Dick actually. Not only did he find out that his father is both dead AND a mass murderer (and this is the second time this exact thing has happened to him with an immediate relative!) but the next day, his best friend was murdered. Now he has no family, and the one person who actually cared about him, Logan, died a horrible and pointless death. I wouldn't be surprised if next time we see him, he really is a strung out mess of a person.

Yes, not that I like Dick but something should have been done. Maybe  Veronica could have passed him leaving Jane’s office. 

[rejnel]

Logan's death was badly done, but beyond that:

-referencing Thomas's statements about their intent: the strengths of Veronica Mars are very different from those of Sherlock, though even Sherlock is built on relationships--with Watson, with Mrs. Hudson, with Molly, lots of others. Taking Veronica out of Neptune is essentially starting a whole different show, and one that sounds a lot less interesting. Not to mention that VM has been able to engage with class issues in a particular way because of the Marses' specific place in the community. All in all, a bonehead move. 

-the Keith health scare was badly written and badly acted.

-how is Daniel Maloof a free man, let alone running for senate? There is tons to connect him with the death of a relative of his brother's fiancee; by no means would it be written off as a simple race-motivated murder attempt. And how is crazy Mama Carr not on every local news outlet shrieking about her other son who's gone missing. I would think the Maloofs would have every reason to get out of Dodge, not raise their profile and run for higher office.

-Maddie and the ring? Come on. 

[marshmallows]

1 hour ago, Whimsy said:

I really liked your whole post, but I cut down to just the couple of things I wanted to directly respond to.

First, I was a HUGE Buffy & Roswell fan.  I was a hard shipper of the couples on those shows.  I was in my mid-twenties so maybe a bit too old for all of that, lol.  When those shows ended I didn't have another show I felt passionately about until VM.  Then I became a hard core LoVe fan.  At that time I was on a site called Fan Forum.  Veronica Mars, and especially LoVe, was HUGE over there.  The LoVe fans were pretty vocal even then. Interesting side-note, Michael Muhney (Sheriff Lamb) posted over there occasionally.  It was fun.  

I also didn't cry or even tear up at Logan's death because I was, and am still to some extent, so thoroughly pissed off.  You, and many other posters here, listed many, many ways that Logan still could've either been written off (break-up) or just utilized minimally.  There was no need for this complete destruction of the character.

Someone mentioned back a couple of pages or so that the focus has been on JD and Logan because he died, but that really it's the end for all the characters.  This has really resonated with me and I am really sad for all of them.  The entire cast really loved VM and (for reasons unknown to me) RT.  They have agreed to come back for the movie and the revival only for him to kick them all to the curb.  Sure, the others could somehow pop up for a cameo, but it doesn't really sound like that's what RT is interested in.  

Also, the comment from RT and KB about the teenage drama is frustrating because who does he think the fans are??  I seriously doubt he's getting that many new fans.  The people who are watching are mostly those who started watching 15 years ago.  Guess what.  We've all grown up and matured. We would all go along for the ride of a mature Veronica Mars.  He didn't give us a mature Veronica Mars.  He gave us a mature everyone else except Veronica Mars. 

There have been so many wonderfully written and insightful posts here.  Someone mentioned that RT would frequent TWoP and I really, really hope he makes his way here because it's easy to dismiss fans who are just tweeting and not writing full, thoughtful and articulate posts.  

Thanks for the insight on that! But, what I don't get is why would RT even give into LoVe back then? Sure, you had fans on a site saying they saw chemistry, but RT could have kept it antagonistic or made it a darker kind of relationship. No instead he wrote an epic love story and then expected fans to just drop it? No, that is not how you write a TV show. If his intention was always to blow it up (quite literally), he should have just left well enough alone and let Veronica date the vanilla Duncan's, Leo's, and Piz's of the world. 

Well of course Logan is the focus bc what they did to him was final. The other characters can still make cameos. Or RT could change his mind and set everything back in Neptune. Honestly, I don't even care if he puts the show back in Neptune bc he shit all over his fans. I wasn't here for the Logan Echolls show, but seeing him appear definitely helped considering he was my favorite character. However, I was still fully here for the Veronica Mars show. But, this season I wasn't so much because Veronica was an absolute bitch to everyone she knew. None of her redeemable qualities seemed to transfer into adulthood. On the original show- she laughed, she cried, she showed humility and compassion. She was quick-witted and even at times could admit when she was wrong. She also had times of vulnerability with Logan, Keith, and Wallace. None of that was evident in s4. She was just running all over town being horrible to everyone.

She seemed uninterested in Wallace's life just because he had settled down into what most people want from life- love & stability. She had no empathy or even sympathy for Weevil. She was an even worse girlfriend to Logan than she was in the OG show. She constantly shut him down out, made sly comments about wanting a hot-headed version of Logan, and made fun of him for bettering himself. Sorry, but Veronica doesn't deserve a wonderful friend like Wallace, a loyal ally like Weevil, or an emotionally matured- very well-rounded Logan who would do anything for her. 

Btw, I was a huge Buffy fan as well. And even if the last 2 seasons weren't my cup of tea. Let's just say Whedon never let me down like RT has.

[blondiec0332]

7 minutes ago, marshmallows said:

If his intention was always to blow it up (quite literally), he should have just left well enough alone and let Veronica date the vanilla Duncan's, Leo's, and Piz's of the world. 

Well the original season four had Veronica joining the FBI with no boyfriend in sight.  So it seems like if there is a season five RT will get his wish and Veronica will be single.

[marshmallows]

1 minute ago, blondiec0332 said:

Well the original season four had Veronica joining the FBI with no boyfriend in sight.  So it seems like if there is a season five RT will get his wish and Veronica will be single.

Yeah and we all know how that turned out, oh right a cancellation. Bc nobody wants to watch bitchy Veronica in a world of people we don't know.

Like others have said, why not just write a detective show with KB as the main character or get a different actress if it would feel to Veronica Marsish. Or gosh even have just pitched what he really wanted to hulu and had VM doing more case of the week or as an FBI agent w/little to no Logan, Wallace, Keith, etc. But he knew he couldn't do that bc the viewers are here for Veronica Mars as a whole, not another procedural FBI show. If I wanted to watch that, I would go watch Bones or Criminal Minds- which I have and I like both of them for what they are. But, I liked VM for what it was as well and that includes the supporting cast and all the relationships that come with it, yes even Logan lol. It just makes me sick that he pretty much used his entire fan-base to revive a show that already ended pretty well twice (at least for me it did) just to bring it back to blow up everything that was good about VM just to get what he wanted way back in 2007. 

I'm sorry, but I have no interest in watching bitter, angry, mean Veronica interact with a bunch of people I don't know nor care about while solving mediocre cases of the week and sleeping around. And Idk why RT thinks anyone wants to watch that and why he thought any of this was a good idea. It felt like he literally brought the show back to say F/U to the Logan & LoVe fans bc he was bitter that he had to write a decent movie with somewhat happy ending.

Sorry if any of this sounds bitchy. It is most definitely not at you. I just have a lot of angry feelings towards RT, KB, and the show overall right now lol.

[blondiec0332]

8 minutes ago, marshmallows said:

. It felt like he literally brought the show back to say F/U to the Logan & LoVe fans bc he was bitter that he had to write a decent movie with somewhat happy ending.

I agree with that.  He created a show that people absolutely loved and instead of embracing that he wants to literally blow it up so he can do what he wants to do.  Which OK fine but don't be surprised when that figuratively blows up in your face. TV is littered with shows that decided to "change things up" and not for the better.    I can only think of one show that transformed into another successfully.  The Practice became Boston Legal.  However that was with one main character who was only on the Practice for one season.  There have been many spin offs of supporting characters who go their own shows while the original show carried on without them.    But what RT wants to do is akin to Tony Soprano leaving NJ and starting over again in Witness Protection.

[CatrionaK]

I just listened to The Good Place panel at ComiCon. Kristen was asked to compare her GP character to Veronica. She prefaced her (very funny) answer by asking:

“Has anybody watched it [this was recorded last weekend]?”

<Audience responds with cheers>

“All of it?”

<smaller response>

“Are you OK?”

So she knows ... !

[Affogato]

2 hours ago, blondiec0332 said:

Well the original season four had Veronica joining the FBI with no boyfriend in sight.  So it seems like if there is a season five RT will get his wish and Veronica will be single.

I think the original season 4 had logan working for the Fitzpatricks to get Gorey off his back. The FBI thing was a hail mary pass. 

Edited July 24, 2019 by Affogato
Spell

[Affogato]

On 7/23/2019 at 12:51 PM, Kel Varnsen said:

The more I think about it the more I think that veronica on the road could really work. I mean she pretty much had Neptune figured out, she knew who all the players were and knew where to go to get answers. Plus she had a great support system including Keith to work with and Weevil to save her ass. Between that and her actual skills you would basically need a Moriarty style super genius for the villain to be a threat to her (without making her stupid). Putting her in new surroundings avoids that.

Plus I am not sure I would want to live in California if I knew that a Mexican Cartel basically owned a Senator. Because with that kind of murder leverage it would seem that they do.

I’d be up for Veronica and Mac solving crime. 

 Not really because I’m not sure I trust RT with the characters now. But if RT wasn’t a butthead. 

[methodwriter85]

2 hours ago, Affogato said:

The more I think about it the more I think that veronica on the road could really work. I mean she pretty much had Neptune figured out, she knew who all the players were and knew where to go to get answers. Plus she had a great support system including Keith to work with and Weevil to save her ass. Between that and her actual skills you would basically need a Moriarty style super genius for the villain to be a threat to her (without making her stupid). Putting her in new surroundings avoids that.

Plus I am not sure I would want to live in California if I knew that a Mexican Cartel basically owned a Senator. Because with that kind of murder leverage it would seem that they do.

I'd love to see her solve an extended case in a shady Florida town. There's something really strange about Florida in the sense that it's a hotbed of mysterious disappearances and murders. Maybe like a fictionalized version of the Jennifer Kesse or Tiffany Sessions cases?

Other geographic locations I'd recommend because they seem to attract weird crime like a magnet: Oregon, the Texas killing fields, and West Virginia. Seriously, I follow a true crime vlog called Mysterious West Virginia and it's kind of insane to me that a relatively small state has so many unsolved murders and disappearances.

Detroit, Pittsburgh, and St. Louis could also be interesting- I think a Rust Belt town/city could be an interesting back drop.

Edited July 24, 2019 by methodwriter85

[CerealKiller813]

On 7/23/2019 at 4:07 AM, AmeliaBedelia said:

A long time ago, we used to be friends...but now I kinda hate this show lol. Veronica Mars is ruined for me because happy supposedly equals boring. A Veronica that is not rooted with her family and friends is awful. Won't watch, rewatch, or continue my hulu subscription. So disappointed. 

Don’t punish Hulu!  There are so many other good shows on there! Lol 

[bobbyjoe]

Quote

But Veronica Mars is noir and happy endings don't happen in noir.

The twist with Logan is strikingly similar to something that happens in the classic film noir film The Big Heat, so to me, hard as it is, this is the show sticking to its noir roots. (I watch a lot of noir on TCM’s weekly Noir Alley, shout out to its great host and recommendation for anyone who likes noir films!).

What would not be very noir-ish would be if the show really does plan on having Veronica on the road solving new mysteries every season— that sounds more Agatha Christie.

If they want to stay noir, she’ll keep having to come back to Neptune whether she wants to or not.  Part of most noir is this sense of feeling trapped— the most noir thing they could do is Veronica thinkng she’s out on the first episode of a new season but having something happen that forces her grudgingly back to Neptune.

ETA:  And not to give anybody false hope but there’s more than one classic noir centered around a twist where somebody thought to be definitively dead is really not dead.  With Logan’s profession being what it is, the show has just enough wiggle room to pull off that twist if they wanted to and still be within their noir sensibility, but I’m not sure how I’d feel about that.

Edited July 24, 2019 by bobbyjoe

[CerealKiller813]

17 hours ago, kieyra said:

@tennisgurl I’m really sorry, especially after

  Reveal spoiler

The Magicians

❤️

I truly cried after that and I’m STILL not over it. 💜🥺

[angelusgirl]

I am so frustrated with the season as a whole.  What they did to Veronica, her friendships, her relationships. I am frustrated with the multitude of interviews "explaining" themselves. But I am also frustrated at the number of people (not here, other places) that are taking this interviews as "proof" that Logan is dead.  I think there were way too many holes, way to many needless specific explanations of how often he has to leave at a moments notice and comes back whenever.  Rob saying he regrets these possible clues?  Bull.  That doesn't happen by accident.  I think they all doth protest too much and season 5 will end with V "moving on" and a shot of Logan either captured/incapacitated or en route home.  The EW interviews with Kit Harrington had him describing in detail how he got "the talk" about his death, how he was for sure done.  Multiple interviews with the show runners claiming the same.  Do people honestly think they would show their hand? Say lol just kidding? GoT is just one instance, but showrunners and actors lie.  they have to. The number of interviews itself is really kind of suspect. Why so many?  Is he really dead? Maybe but taking RT and co at their word may be a fools errand. 

[marshmallows]

5 minutes ago, angelusgirl said:

I am so frustrated with the season as a whole.  What they did to Veronica, her friendships, her relationships. I am frustrated with the multitude of interviews "explaining" themselves. But I am also frustrated at the number of people (not here, other places) that are taking this interviews as "proof" that Logan is dead.  I think there were way too many holes, way to many needless specific explanations of how often he has to leave at a moments notice and comes back whenever.  Rob saying he regrets these possible clues?  Bull.  That doesn't happen by accident.  I think they all doth protest too much and season 5 will end with V "moving on" and a shot of Logan either captured/incapacitated or en route home.  The EW interviews with Kit Harrington had him describing in detail how he got "the talk" about his death, how he was for sure done.  Multiple interviews with the show runners claiming the same.  Do people honestly think they would show their hand? Say lol just kidding? GoT is just one instance, but showrunners and actors lie.  they have to. The number of interviews itself is really kind of suspect. Why so many?  Is he really dead? Maybe but taking RT and co at their word may be a fools errand. 

I would so love to believe that he is alive and somehow they are going to redeem all of this by having him be on a mission and maybe have Veronica grow the hell up before he re-appears. But, I feel like he is really dead. JD was tearing up in a few interviews. He looked genuinely upset. I mean maybe he is just that good of an actor lol.

Also RT & KB seem to have never liked Logan (no idea why...), but with him gone now they can finally do w/e they want- which their idea is a pretty shitty and tired concept.

[tennisgurl]

Some fans on Twitter have started calling ourselves Burnt Marshmallow...

Edited July 24, 2019 by tennisgurl

[appledown]

2 hours ago, marshmallows said:

Also RT & KB seem to have never liked Logan (no idea why...), but with him gone now they can finally do w/e they want- which their idea is a pretty shitty and tired concept.

I don't follow a lot of interviews and such so I'm curious, where have they said this? Or why is it some people think this is the case?

[WaitandHope]

So, yuck.  That’s how I felt about this episode.  Not just killing off Logan...

So I know that everyone loves Fargo and Justified.  I like them too.  But I like my “Veronica Mars” a little more tension-filled, dramatic, and little less melancholy and “realistic.”  What a hopeless drudgery these last two episodes were.  The reveals weren’t exciting, the dialogue had no real pep or wit,  the stories seemed rush and dread hung in the air.   The exceptions were the shootout and the bomb defusing.  But two good scenes don’t make a good two hours of TV.   I just felt these last two episodes were a little boring, wandering and strangely paced.  My show grew up, I guess, but I didn’t need it too — and it’s now just the tone and style of so many other shows -- that do it so much better. 

Why were there so many hanging character and plot threads?   Way too many — and they are never coming back to Neptune to revisit them?  What a waste!  Not everything needs to be wrapped up, but in a show with a voiceover, for God’s sake, the threads can at least be addressed as unresolved.  This just seemed like they forgot about things.

Finally,  the Logan of it all.  I echo what so many of you said.  What a waste- even if they wanted to kill him, this was so not the way to do it.  VM was at its best when she cared about the person who was killed...had his character not earned at least a murder mystery about his death?    What a wasted opportunity.  His death is just a PS: screw you - to the fans. He was a naval intelligence officer!  She’s going on the road...could that not have been the first mystery?  Jeez... this was just pointless.  I guess that was the point- to make it feel meaningless and random and mundane.  Not to mention totally hopeless.  To me, that’s not stylized noir—  that’s straight up almost EVERYTHING IN REAL LIFE AND TV in the year 2019.

I didn’t need this show to bring me that feeling too.   So yuck...

I guess she now becomes a feminist Equalizer.  Admittedly, an interesting premise for a new show.  But it didn’t need to be Veronica Mars.

Edited July 25, 2019 by WaitandHope

[Minneapple]

1 hour ago, appledown said:

I don't follow a lot of interviews and such so I'm curious, where have they said this? Or why is it some people think this is the case?

Back in the day, Kristen said some things that made it seem like she only tolerated Jason. IIRC Jason said some weird things about her, fawning all over her a lot -- maybe too much. Maybe that put her off.

As for Logan, I found him tiresome as a character after season 1. I think he is unnecessary to a noir detective show. After season one he existed only as Veronica's boyfriend and the writers didn't care about him enough to make him interesting on any other level. And the movie did a spectacular job of making him zzzzzz. They took all the great aspects of his personality and made him a robot in Navy whites. I had some hopes for him in this season when he got the security job, but again, I think the writers were like, "eh, let's just refrigerate him and go from there!"

[Vandy10]

Sorry, I saw no body, no funeral, and no grave. Therefore, Logan is lying somewhere in a coma from which he will shortly wake up. That’s my head cannon, anyway.

Edited July 25, 2019 by Vandy10

[Jenniferbug]

I think it's really shitty of marketing that they're using the Veronica/Logan pairing so much in their advertising, knowing how this ends. They shouldn't get to lure fans in with a relationship that ultimately LITERALLY blows up! It feels so manipulative. 

[Catfi9ht]

I watched this season over the weekend and spent the last few days trying to organize my thoughts. I think my main idea boils down to I think I've outgrown Rob Thomas's writing.

Rather than focusing on a particular plot, the thing I enjoy most about entertainment are the characters, and I don't think Rob Thomas knows how to write character growth. This season the only character that experienced any kind of growth was Logan which, by reading the forums, was the sole reason for killing Logan's character off? Strange. None of the other characters in the show experienced any kind of growth which stagnates the show for me.

Overall, I didn't enjoy this season's mystery. I get the gentrification plot but using bombs as the threat to strong arm business owners was lazy writing. I knew from the beginning the first bomb was placed by JK Simmons's character in order for Big Dick to buy up the land cheaply so for me, there wasn't much of a mystery. The side plots with the Mexican mob and the Senator were unnecessary and didn't advance the plot. They only served as content filler for individual episodes.

When Patton Oswalt showed up I knew I wasn't going to like the season. It's not his acting or about the characters he plays necessarily, there's just something about his on-screen energy I find off-putting. I have the same reaction when Felicia Day shows too.

Between this and what iZombie turned into beginning in season 3, I can safely say I will no longer have the urge to watch anything Rob Thomas writes even if actors I like are in it. I think Rob Thomas should consider himself lucky he gained popularity and a fandom before tv evolved into what it is now. Had he started now, I definitely think his shows and his writing would have gotten mixed in with shows of equal mediocrity.

[Melgaypet]

14 hours ago, Minneapple said:

Back in the day, Kristen said some things that made it seem like she only tolerated Jason. IIRC Jason said some weird things about her, fawning all over her a lot -- maybe too much. Maybe that put her off.

I remember that. Kristen did seem uncomfortable with how much Jason (who was married at the time - and still is, as far as I know) was into the whole LoVe thing. Maybe it was him being Method or whatever, but it was a little weird. I recall being seriously annoyed by how some LoVe (not all! Not even most!) were offended that Kristen didn't adore Dohring/Logan as much as they did and excoriated her for it.

Edited July 25, 2019 by Melgaypet

[Chick2Chic]

On 7/23/2019 at 3:44 PM, stagmania said:

On 7/23/2019 at 2:13 PM, Melgaypet said:

But I also genuinely feel that the character of Logan Echolls had become something of a black hole, sucking all the oxygen from both Veronica Mars and Veronica Mars.

This is a feeling I believe is created by fandom, but it's not actually visible on the show. I've been susceptible to that feeling myself, but when I go back and rewatch old episodes I'm surprised to see that Logan isn't actually on screen nearly as much as I remember. There are many episodes he doesn't appear in, and often his appearances are limited to one or two scenes, while Veronica is in every frame of the show. It's just that he's so memorable and he leaves a big impression even with limited screen time.

Well said. I totally agree that if there was an issue with Logan being discussed a lot and / or well-loved, it was fandom. Obviously RT and KB resented it. 

I also don't actually remember any time on the show that Logan overtook Veronica regarding screentime or story but if I am wrong on that, please anyone let me know when that happened. 

[Affogato]

I was on the subway thinking if I could get Veronica from the end of the book series to, only 4 or 5 years later, where she is in season 4.  Anyway description of the end of MKAT

Spoiler

In the year following the movie Logan probably spends 3 1/2 months living with her before he runs back into deployment, early, following a death in his squad.  They haven't talked much about their goals or future and so far this makes sense to me.  Logan is already learning Arabic so he may be contemplating his career change, but he hasn't talked about it. Even though they are having sex this is a pretty new relationship. Just before he leaves Logan tells her how important the military is to him. 

After he leaves Veronica explores her options while she finishes a case. She watches a public defender and thinks 'that could be me'. She talks to a professor at Stanford, she uses Leo as backup. She considers dating Leo, he suggests she could do well joining him in the San Diego PD, so they weren't on the same page, but I think that she considers options at all levels is important.  At the end they skype and she commits to try the relationship with Logan, realizing that the person who has to be flexible in the relationship and give things up will be her, not him.

She is working with her father, who is still getting better following the accident. Wallace is still unattached and able to spend more time with her, I assume, and Mac is working at MI. she is committed to supporting her young brother and staying in the area in case Lianne falls of the wagon (given how Veronica helped Keith ground himself, I think this is huge).

I'd guess that the encounter in the books with Leo was removed and placed in season 4 and that Hunter no longer exists to ground her.

Anyway at the end of the first year after the movie Veronica is in a pretty good position. She has friends, her father is better and pulling his weight. She has had some recognition and some personal satisfaction.

So what happens? Like in Season 4 her support system takes hits. Wallace meets someone, marries, has a kid--not ending their relationship, but leaving less time for it (the same thing happens in Season 3). Mac does whatever she does and goes off to do what she does. Keith is increasingly having physical and mental issues and withdraws so she won't notice, probably more importantly he is pulling in less money at MI. Veronica compensates by taking more jobs like the one we saw at the beginning of Season 4. This explains some of her difficulty with Wallace's friends, since they seem to be the same group of people. She probably never takes a vacation (if Hunter isn't part of the story she doesn't even go out of town for the weekend.) Logan is has his current deployment, maybe he is gone for training while she stays in Neptune and now he has these infrequent stops home. His life is exciting and just what she wants, but when he comes home he wants domestic tranquility and sex. He probably still goes on surfing vacations with Dick but Veronica very likely never has time to get away. She is burned out and depressed and since she is supporting MInvestigations she really doesn't feel as if she has options. When Logan offers the option of marriage it must sound like more of a trap, he clearly wants children. He'll be gone all the time having his exciting life and saving the world and she will be in Neptune scraping by while caring for a baby?

She is operating at the absolute edge of her ability to cope and I don't think Logan even considers this. I also think they want different things out of the relationship at this point. He wants a calm place, she needs stimulation.

Now Logan can talk about Veronica and therapy, and Keith and Veronica seem to have some sort of legally mandated healthcare plan, but I bet she can't afford therapy any more than Keith can afford a hip replacement. Aside from the fact that Logan is initially offerring couples therapy with a therapist who knows him intimately and is presumably on his side, which is darn creepy, it isn't surprising she would reject it. I don't know if she really would consider it, but talking to Logan's therapist would be off putting. Which is why it isn't done, if couples therapy was in the cards they would see someone else.

Anyway, the short of this is that I can see how she could get to season 4 from the ends of the books.

It is probably telling that after Logan dies she takes care of Keith, but he is really taking care of her. No one directly takes care of her, she has learned to fear it, perhaps because she needs it so much. Logan? Well, he will hug her if she is upset, sure, but he would also have taken her on vacation for spring break, arrange it with Keith, etc, not spend too much money on a ring. That romantic gesture is something Logan does for Logan, Logan should know by this time it isn't Veronica's thing.

[tennisgurl]

1 hour ago, Chick2Chic said:

also don't actually remember any time on the show that Logan overtook Veronica regarding screentime or story but if I am wrong on that, please anyone let me know when that happened. 

Yeah, I did a bit of a re-watch before this season, and I have no clue where this idea that "It became all about romance!" or "Logan took over the show and Veronica was second fiddle" came from, unless its just a perception based on how LoVe kind of did take over the fandom, especially in its early years. So I can kind of get why people think that, but having just watched a lot of the show, there isn't as much Logan as I remembered, and while I wish some other supporting characters had gotten some better subplots (Wallace!!) Logan never takes over the show, beyond his family life being important to several of the mysteries and events of the first two seasons, and is certainly never getting more screen time than Veronica. 

I saw Kristin talking about Veronica Mars on Good Morning America the other day, and she said one of the reasons she wanted play Veronica again was so "her daughters could have a good role model." Umm, what now? I thought Kristin was super happy that Veronica was always going to be  a miserable emotionally closed off angst machine? That a woman can never possibly be strong and successful while also being in love and in a happy relationship? Oh yeah, great lesson for the kids!

[Affogato]

12 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I saw Kristin talking about Veronica Mars on Good Morning America the other day, and she said one of the reasons she wanted play Veronica again was so "her daughters could have a good role model." Umm, what now? I thought Kristin was super happy that Veronica was always going to be  a miserable emotionally closed off angst machine? That a woman can never possibly be strong and successful while also being in love and in a happy relationship? Oh yeah, great lesson for the kids!

Yes I don’t quite get that. I do get that Veronica helps the helpless Sometimes. But working on relationships is something Kristen talks about a lot. 

I don’t think she has to be with logan. But i think they needed to work more on it, not kill him. 

Also she needs to develop some skills. 

Edited July 25, 2019 by Affogato

[blondiec0332]

1 hour ago, Chick2Chic said:

Well said. I totally agree that if there was an issue with Logan being discussed a lot and / or well-loved, it was fandom. Obviously RT and KB resented it. 

I think there is a lot of the truth there.  I think RT and KB wanted praised for creating the wonderful character of Veronica Mars. And they were. However the character of Logan and his relationship with Veronica inspired a very deep devotion.   I watched the show from the very first episode. I enjoyed it, kept watching but I didn't fall in love with the show till things started between Veronica and Logan.  I have to say as a fan I kinda feel insulted being told I shouldn't have liked them together so much.

[Chick2Chic]

33 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

I saw Kristin talking about Veronica Mars on Good Morning America the other day, and she said one of the reasons she wanted play Veronica again was so "her daughters could have a good role model." Umm, what now?

I had on GMA that morning but flipped away before she came on although I was curious about how VM living life via hard bitten cynicism and trauma is a good role model. And yes, to believe that a woman can't be strong with a supportive relationship and can be with only misery to drive her is certainly a choice. 

[Chick2Chic]

I realize a big issue for me is that I didn't connect to this season. Parts were ok but mostly everything about this revival came off as emotionally void and soulless. 

Edited July 26, 2019 by Chick2Chic
fixed something.

[marshmallows]

22 hours ago, appledown said:

I don't follow a lot of interviews and such so I'm curious, where have they said this? Or why is it some people think this is the case?

I know back in the day KB had mentioned how Logan was toxic and just not a good boyfriend. RT said somethings along the lines of why couldn't she just choose Piz, but ultimately it seemed like back in the day RT was more of a fan of Logan, he just needed to write in a love triangle bc of network pressure.

I guess with KB's popularity and being in Disney movies and Disney owns Hulu. I'm sure KB is the only reason Hulu would greenlight this disaster of a revival. Anyways Idk what RT's true feelings on Logan are currently, but I feel like KB wanted him off the show so she got what she wanted.

Another thing that baffles me is KB thinks Logan is toxic, but has she ever taken a good look at her own character Veronica? Bc the show I watched pretty much always had Veronica being the one that screwed up the LoVe relationship. But w/e.

I read above that it sounds like KB didn't like the attention Logan got from the fandom. Idk if that is true, but if it is, wow how spiteful to get Logan killed off just bc he was more popular with the fans than Veronica.

20 hours ago, Minneapple said:

Back in the day, Kristen said some things that made it seem like she only tolerated Jason. IIRC Jason said some weird things about her, fawning all over her a lot -- maybe too much. Maybe that put her off.

As for Logan, I found him tiresome as a character after season 1. I think he is unnecessary to a noir detective show. After season one he existed only as Veronica's boyfriend and the writers didn't care about him enough to make him interesting on any other level. And the movie did a spectacular job of making him zzzzzz. They took all the great aspects of his personality and made him a robot in Navy whites. I had some hopes for him in this season when he got the security job, but again, I think the writers were like, "eh, let's just refrigerate him and go from there!"

Hmm I didn't know she didn't like Jason. Idk why, but I thought they were friends?

Logan had a lot going on in s2. He had his own little murder mystery where he was the suspect. He wasn't even her bf in that season. 

And I have to disagree, I think Logan was interesting in the show. He grew up, unlike literally every other character. Personal growth is interesting. I mean they could have had a little bit more of old Logan in his personality (like his humor), but otherwise I still thought he was an interesting character.

[Melina22]

I have so many feelings! 

1. CALLED IT! I was saying by episode 2 I thought Penn was guilty. Excuse me while I do the Dance of Gloating. 

2. I have never, ever had a pain in my stomach watching a show like I did during the last half of this episode. By the time they were getting married, I was holding my stomach. I just knew that someone was going to die and a bomb was going to explode. When it wasn't Keith, I knew it would be Logan. I was almost relieved when the bomb went off because it put me out of my misery. 

3. What's the deal with Matty? How was she totally unfazed by a beheading? 

4. It's President Roslyn from BSG! I love her. I wish she was my therapist. 

5. Clyde is cold-blooded criminal but I was so sad Keith wouldn't be his friend. (Then I thought he'd poisoned the alcohol he left for Keith because...cold-blooded criminal. But no, he was just being nice.)

6. How did Little Dick feel about his father's beheading? 

7. I LOVED the bad true crime reenactment, and Keith and Veronica's reactions. By then I needed the laugh. Badly. 

8. It's over. Sob. 

[meatball77]

I think it would have been better if they'd made Veronica a college professor or lawyer who dabbles as a PI, investigating the bombing as well as the day to day cases.  I missed the day to day cases.  The stolen dogs and other lighthearted cases.  Would have been more interesting than watching the two guys assassinate a bunch of people.

[marieYOTZ]

On 7/23/2019 at 11:52 PM, JamieLynn832002 said:

I think this may be my biggest problem (among so many) with the twist, it required Veronica to suddenly become a moron. The guy makes several not terribly vague threats and she just leaves his unexamined backpack in her car? Leaving the backpack would have been too stupid to be believable from Veronica without the threats but he makes multiple threats and she doesn't think "Hmm, maybe I should worry about the bag he insisted on bringing?"

Word! And now she wants to go ON THE ROAD as a PI?! If I were her, I’d be forced out of the PI game now due to crippling self-doubt about my powers of observation. 

But i suppose as Logan so thoughtfully memorialized in his pre-mortem voicemail to his therapist “no matter how many times she gets knocked down, she always gets back up...”

which brings me to my big issue with RT’s “this is what they need” theory - I personally do not need to just watch Veronica get shat on by the universe over and over and over. Maybe “noirs” just aren’t meant to last for decades. There comes a point where it’s just one too many terrible things.  

Logan’s death was stupid. I maybe could have dealt with a death that was in some way meaningful, but after spending so many years with this character, for it to end with “OOPS! Killed by the pizza man!” just feels wrong. And that wrong is compounded by all this “We just want a show where Veronica hits the road as a good-timing PI!” Logan’s death is hard, but they in NO WAY made it a ‘necessary’ death. They made it an inconsequential death en route to some endless vacation. 

Someone several pages back said it better than I did, but they’re selling Logan’s death as essential to their ‘noir’ premise, but all they’re talking about going forward is wanting to get to their fast-quipping fun detective-games in new locals. Can’t do it both ways. 

Slightly smaller quibble - but the end of Veronica and Keith’s new friendships also bummed me out.