Book vs. Series: On The Shelf

[anna0852]

1 hour ago, kittykat said:

The books heavily imply that Anthony is incredibly adept at managing the family estate.  He has dowries for not only his sisters but I believe also gives a dowry for Edwina, Sophie and Posy

Who are Sophie and Posy?

[kittykat]

22 minutes ago, anna0852 said:

Who are Sophie and Posy?

Characters from the third book that should appear in season three.

Edited April 5, 2022 by kittykat

[GaT]

4 hours ago, kittykat said:

He has dowries for not only his sisters but I believe also gives a dowry for Edwina, Sophie and Posy. 

I feel like I missed something, who are Sophie & Posy?

[bijoux]

Sophie is Benedict's love interest and Posy one of her step-sisters. Or half-sisters? What I've read about the book wasn't incentive to read it so I don't know about the dowries.

[scarynikki12]

Posy is one of Sophie's step-sisters. Sophie being the only biological, albeit illegitimate, child of Araminta's husband is among the reasons she's hated and treated so poorly. Posy is abused by her mother as well so, while she likes and feels sympathy for Sophie, she's unable to stand up to Araminta on her behalf. 

[eleanorofaquitaine]

In the Viscount Who Loved Me thread, @katha said:

"But I do think there was a bit of an imbalance that is frustrating. IMO Anthony absolutely got the leading man story arc and treatment. Everything about his journey is beautifully realized and acted. Kate did sometimes come across as a supporting act in various other people's plots, not only Anthony's. Because they kept her in "stubborn, rigid" mode for so long (too long for me), that can create a distance with the character."

So IMO there are a few things that I wish they had kept from book Kate. They wanted to show a more developed relationship with Edwina (and a more fully fleshed out Edwina as a character) but I think that a little bit of Kate got lost in the bargain. 

In particular, I really wish that they had left in the stuff about the trauma of losing her mother. They dropped her fear of storms and okay, but they could have still explored her grief over her mom's death. By changing the library scene, we don't see Kate's vulnerabilities like we do in the book.

The other thing relates to the wedding night. Obviously, by not having Kate be the "plain sister," they couldn't really write about her insecurities as related to Edwina's beauty, which we see on Kate and Anthony's wedding night. (And also they structured the season differently with regard to their sexual intimacy). But again, it means we don't get to see Kate's insecurities. Within the story they did tell, they could have shown Kate's insecurities about her place within her family and I wish they had found a way to do that.

[Ohiopirate02]

26 minutes ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

The other thing relates to the wedding night. Obviously, by not having Kate be the "plain sister," they couldn't really write about her insecurities as related to Edwina's beauty, which we see on Kate and Anthony's wedding night. (And also they structured the season differently with regard to their sexual intimacy). But again, it means we don't get to see Kate's insecurities. Within the story they did tell, they could have shown Kate's insecurities about her place within her family and I wish they had found a way to do that.

They tried but that conversation between Kate and Mary happened too late.  I wish the show would have shown us instead of having Mary tell us what Kate's hangups really are.  This season was all about Anthony and his issues when the book delved into the obstacles both had to overcome.  I can connect the dots and see how Show Kate did this, but I do wish I could have seen it.  Some flashbacks of Kate's life in India would have gone a long way.  

Part of me missed the scene from the book where Mary tells Kate it's her season as well as Edwina's.  

[katha]

Structurally, Kate being so much in supporting roles in the series works to a certain extent because she is constantly casting herself as such. And it does come together when she is encouraged in the last episode to make herself the center of her own life at last. But yeah, for all that she is presented as headstrong and full of bravado, Kate in the series is also strangely passive and closed off. Edwina has to free both Anthony and Kate from that engagement tangle. Anthony from that point on is taking his life into his own hands. And if Kate had rejected him, he'd have been heartbroken but also open to healing and finding love again IMO. Because he reached a breakthrough regarding his whole outlook in life.

And Kate is basically positioned as the supporting act in these character arcs for them, to me. Which is fine as long as you give her an arc of her own as well. But she's never properly centered in the show as she was in the book. So yeah, her insecurities in the show manifest themselves perhaps even more strongly than in the novel through her rigidity, her inability to let herself be open and vulnerable for so long. But they're of a reactive, background kind and give her too little room for development until the very end in episode 8 basically. It's the big writing mistake of the season IMO.

[roseslg]

On 3/30/2022 at 8:26 AM, deaja said:

I really disliked this season compared to the book. I do understand that they have to have more side characters in the show, and that's not my issue. My issue is that they made Kate initially way ruder than in the book. In the book, she didn't like Anthony but otherwise behaved like someone from that time would behave.  In the show, she's telling off Lady Danbury in episode 1?  And being rude to just about everyone she meets? That was unnecessary.

As others have said, there is simply no way Daphne would have tried to get Anthony to call off his wedding at the altar. It made no sense for that time period.  

I get that they didn't want another forced wedding but this went too far to avoid it. 

I am not a fan of this season. The storyline was so bloody ridiculous. They could've just kept it as it was with an "enemies" to lovers story. Kate was not likeable, the acting was wooden. The whole thing was a whole stinking pile of meh. I did like the family interactions.  Meh.

[Conotocarious]

I’m on my third rewatch. Taking it one episode per night. I also rewatched season one. Now that was interesting because there was really no chemistry between Simon and Daphne. I don’t think the acting was as strong as it is in season 2. I liked looking at Simon but I did not buy the relationship at all. It looks even worse as he’s not around in season 2. Kind of makes it look like he’s not that into being a husband and father after all. Unfortunate. 

Edited April 6, 2022 by Conotocarious

[SonofaBiscuit]

Who would have been handling all of Anthony's bookkeeping duties while he was away with Kate for six months traveling on their honeymoon? Does the book ever mention that? I am not sure it matters, LOL, but yes, I have been thinking about it. Would it have been Benedict? 😬 (Cue storyline next season where all of the finances are in disarray, yikes).

[Ohiopirate02]

4 minutes ago, SonofaBiscuit said:

Who would have been handling all of Anthony's bookkeeping duties while he was away with Kate for six months traveling on their honeymoon? Does the book ever mention that? I am not sure it matters, LOL, but yes, I have been thinking about it. Would it have been Benedict? 😬 (Cue storyline next season where all of the finances are in disarray, yikes).

Anthony would have a steward to handle his estate while he was away.  All estates had someone in this capacity.  Ideally, the steward balanced the estates accounts taking in rent from the tenant farmers, hearing their complaints and fixing what needs to be fixed, paying the estate staff. etc.  The steward would have limited legal authority to keep the estate running and limited access to the necessary bank accounts to make this happen.  I want to say that Anthony's steward was in some of the scenes when we see Anthony balancing his books.  He would have been of a higher social status than a servant.  Some estates used younger sons in this role if they did not have the funds to support them.  Or an impoverished cousin would be given the job and then the position would be passed down to his eldest son.  It would be considered an acceptable form of employment for the youngest son of a the youngest son in a "good" family.  

[eleanorofaquitaine]

Yes, I think Simon mentioned it was his intention to meet with his steward and then take off again in the first episode of season one.

Quite honestly, I bet Anthony's steward would be thrilled to have him out of his hair for six months. I have a feeling that Anthony is very detail-oriented. 

[magdalene]

I just finished reading An Offer From A Gentleman, Benedicts book.  It's a Cinderella story with an eeevil! step mother with extra eeeevil! on top. She is so bad she actually cackles at times. I enjoyed the Bridgerton family dynamics.   The romance was bogged down for me by Benedict pressuring the heroine for most of the book to become his mistress.  Now I am not one who goes for all this virginity and fallen woman clap trap. I am all for women getting ahead and using rich men if they only had themselves to count on.  But the heroine in this story did not want to become a mistress, it was a sore point for her because of her own history. Damn Benedict should have taken no as a no. In some ways I don't have a romantic brain at all or maybe I just can't shut off my modern brain long enough. Shouldn't the family solicitor have had a legal duty to inform Sophie that she had inherited a dowry from her father? Anyways, things I took away from this book are that book Colin is actually sexy - what was the Bridgerton casting person thinking? And Mama Bridgerton is the best of them all. That woman is awesome. The chapter where she takes down eeeevil step mother was my favorite part of the story.

[Door County Cherry]

I think all indications are that next season will be Colin and Pen.  I don't know if that means they're skipping Benedict or combining Benedict. 

[peachmangosteen]

I’m actually really interested in Colin/Pen focus if only because I can’t imagine that going well at all with these actors lol. 

[kittykat]

Simone Ashley revealed in an interview that it's looking like Colin/Pen will be next.  Give how they have set them up in the show plus Eloise knowing about LW it makes sense.  Can they really spin the will they or won't they wheels on those two for another season?  Do we really want to see Queen Charlotte yelling bring me the head of Lady W for two more seasons? To non-bookies, probably not.  I'm assuming Colin's joshing with the boys at the end of season two was the show equivalent of "I am never marrying Penelope" from book 3. It also looks like there will be no seven year jump.

I can see them pushing Benedict to S4 since there's really no urgency to setting up his story until both Anthony and Colin are settled.

[eleanorofaquitaine]

I feel like they deliberately minimized the scenes between Colin and Penelope this season, which is weird because I think that Luke Newton and Nicola Coughlan have a fun, easy friendship chemistry when I see them in interviews together. Which actually makes sense given Colin and Pen's relationship, which is more of a friends-to-lover story. 

I do think they are probably going to focus on Colin and Penelope for season 3, mostly because there was more of a set up. I don't feel like they've done any real set up for Benedict. 

[Door County Cherry]

3 hours ago, eleanorofaquitaine said:

I feel like they deliberately minimized the scenes between Colin and Penelope this season

Maybe they minimized scenes of them together but they were still building them up. 

I kind of dread next season.  Penelope has had so much focus already. It's Pen and Colin who should have a somewhat reduced role in their season compared to other couples.

They shouldn't have done that to Anthony and Kate. 

 

[katha]

Yeah, I thought the great focus on Pen so early on is a mistake tbh. Colin is useless, but at least doesn't draw as much attention. I understand that NC is great and they like the Gossip Girl aspect, but I thought her story and Eloise and the Featherington plot took up way too much time. You can create an ensemble, which is how they shifted it from season 1 to season 2 structurally, without getting this dragged down by the supposed side plots. 

Penelope got more storyline and focus than Kate, that's the really troubling aspect. Anthony had a fantastic leading man arc IMO. Better than whatever confused mess Simon got last year since he was saddled with that unresolved sexual assault plot that for me sunk Daphne and Simon as a pairing for good. But Kate was really sidelined for much of the series. She didn't need flashbacks or anything, she just needed to be the center of her own story. And until episode 8, IMO she wasn't. I do think the appeal of Kate and Anthony, for those viewers who liked the pairing, is tied to the fact that Anthony very much tries to get her into the center of her own narrative. While she thinks that she's not worth it and should stay on the sidelines. 

[Conotocarious]

I figured they’d do Colin/Pen next. It’s either that or another torturous season of boneheadedness and longing glances. They need to give Pen someone else or have her withdraw in some other way and have that be what makes Colin realize his feelings. Give her some dignity FFS.

[BlairP]

I think Kate may get a lot of focus next year because she will be the Vicountess. I know the family moved to a new house in the book but I can’t see the show doing it. So she and Violet will be negotiating a truce. I would love it if she brought her food traditions into it, or had something to say about Anthony’s parentification or sided with Eloise about her future.  This will really enrich the fam scenes which are already a highlight for me. 

[katha]

On 4/14/2022 at 5:19 PM, BlairP said:

I think Kate may get a lot of focus next year because she will be the Vicountess. I know the family moved to a new house in the book but I can’t see the show doing it. So she and Violet will be negotiating a truce. I would love it if she brought her food traditions into it, or had something to say about Anthony’s parentification or sided with Eloise about her future.  This will really enrich the fam scenes which are already a highlight for me. 

I really hope so. What bothers me on rewatch even more and makes the IMO inadequate focus on Kate even worse: Her plot reads like a barely prevented tragedy. Which is different from the book, as is the decision to make her closed off and introverted. It becomes painful to watch this woman basically wanting to erase herself out of existence.

It's not about marriage or not, it's the transactional way Kate seems to view love and that she thinks she is only worthwhile to her family if she's in a constant state of self-sacrifice. Starting in episode 6, IMO it becomes almost unbearable to watch. And the lack of focus on her reinforces her view of herself on a structural level. Contrast that with Penelope, who is also on the sidelines in society, but gets lots of point of view and is centralized.

Like in episode 7 Kate is constantly berated or she is berating herself, it feels like. The contrast with the gazebo scene where Anthony is totally focused on her is super effective and even moving because of that. Yet right after she drowns in so much shame and guilt that it results in that riding accident. Now, there's nothing inherently wrong with such a narrative and I think a big part of the chemistry Anthony and Kate have is tied to the fact that they overcome this mindset together that they are only worthwhile as human beings if they do their duty. But this is only really addressed and resolved for Anthony. I actually think Kate's issues cut even deeper but it's only present to bring the plot forward and takes place on the sidelines of other stories.

I've seen some criticism of Ashley and I think she did great with what she was given, but the writing/lack of writing for Kate is often frustrating throughout the series.

 

[Chaser]

I could see Kate and Anthony getting a decent amount of focus next season for two reasons. 1) The lack of screen time they got during their season has been vocally criticized and 2) Pen and Colin lack heat, Kate and Anthony can take some pressure off them in that regard. 

[quarks]

1 hour ago, Chaser said:

I could see Kate and Anthony getting a decent amount of focus next season for two reasons. 1) The lack of screen time they got during their season has been vocally criticized and 2) Pen and Colin lack heat, Kate and Anthony can take some pressure off them in that regard. 

Completely agreed that Pen and Colin lack heat - especially this season.

But I'm wondering if that will end up meaning more focus on the two of them next season - especially if the idea is to put Pen and Colin together in the third season, and introduce Sophie in season four. Because I think that the first step towards Pen/Colin is to make Colin more interesting/sympathetic/relatable/vaguely intelligent. And I suspect that will take more than one scene.

Of course that's a big if. They could just as easily do Benedict/Sophie next season.

[HappyHanna]

On 4/5/2022 at 10:03 PM, roseslg said:

I really disliked this season compared to the book. I do understand that they have to have more side characters in the show, and that's not my issue. My issue is that they made Kate initially way ruder than in the book.

Maybe because I read the book after watching the season, but I really did not like the book. Anthony was borderline rapey, Kate lost all her spice once she decided he was a good guy, and just became this boring insecure person. In the series both of them have agency, but in the book she just loses her ability to make choices as soon as he touches her. The trapped into marriage because he tries to suck out bee venom is a gross trope that shows the books age. And her freezing up in the middle of wedding night consumation because he calls her beautiful, eye roll.  I agree that the Edwina in the book is a more fleshed out person, and eliminated some of the annoyance I felt watching her in the show, but overall much much prefer the show. 

[katha]

They turned Kate from extrovert to introvert in the show, which is an interesting choice IMO and perhaps tied to Ashley's strengths as an actor. I did miss the warmth that Kate in the book had to some degree, but the way they really set up the emotional isolation for Kate in the show made it understandable why she is so very guarded. They also swapped up one set of insecurities in the book for another set of insecurities in the series, IMO even more severe ones. Then they didn't properly focus on them, just as a plot device or as background noise for Edwina's and Anthony's arcs, for the most part. That is not good, And I do think the almost total omission of Kate POV has served to create distance towards the character for some viewers. Could have been easily avoided.

But yeah, the wedding night in the book starts with a big yikes. I thought they kept the best parts of Anthony's characterization from the book and did away with the more old-fashioned romance novel baggage, that worked very well. And since Daphne/Simon stayed dysfunctional in both the series and the book, it was a nice change to have Kate and Anthony be two adults who figure out that they want to be together. Since they both have issues they produce a lot of collateral damage, but it felt messy in a more aware sort of way. While IMO Daphne and Simon at the end of the first season basically still hadn't really addressed the toxicity in their marriage.

Edited April 18, 2022 by katha

[ouinason]

They don't ignore the Napoleonic War in the series, Marina's entire plot revolves around soldier baby daddy George who was away fighting in it.

As for how I think they might structure the series in the future, I think they will rearrange and combine, but not so much fundamentally change things.  Maybe combine/reverse books 3 and 4 and have some F+J in the background, similar to Pen's sister's relationship in the last 2 seasons was. 

Maybe do 5 and 6 concurrently as well, and have a moderate time skip between.  Eloise could be feeling displaced not by Colin and Pen getting married and feeling left out, but maybe by the birth of their child/children and seeing the happy relationships of her siblings that she has so far shied away from (maybe a misguided relationship with the printer as background for some of that).  Or Francesca, after being widowed, goes back to the family home in the country and Eloise goes with her and meets up with Philip who lives in the area.  Maybe Michael comes and fetches Francesca back to London to integrate their household as he feels he should since she is technically his responsibility to care for.   

And then another moderate time jump to Hyacinth and Gregory.  I NEED Hyacinth's story, if for no other reason than that she marries one of Lady Danbury's relatives (I want to say grandson, but... memory).

[phoenics]

On 4/22/2022 at 1:10 AM, ouinason said:

They don't ignore the Napoleonic War in the series, Marina's entire plot revolves around soldier baby daddy George who was away fighting in it.

As for how I think they might structure the series in the future, I think they will rearrange and combine, but not so much fundamentally change things.  Maybe combine/reverse books 3 and 4 and have some F+J in the background, similar to Pen's sister's relationship in the last 2 seasons was. 

Maybe do 5 and 6 concurrently as well, and have a moderate time skip between.  Eloise could be feeling displaced not by Colin and Pen getting married and feeling left out, but maybe by the birth of their child/children and seeing the happy relationships of her siblings that she has so far shied away from (maybe a misguided relationship with the printer as background for some of that).  Or Francesca, after being widowed, goes back to the family home in the country and Eloise goes with her and meets up with Philip who lives in the area.  Maybe Michael comes and fetches Francesca back to London to integrate their household as he feels he should since she is technically his responsibility to care for.   

And then another moderate time jump to Hyacinth and Gregory.  I NEED Hyacinth's story, if for no other reason than that she marries one of Lady Danbury's relatives (I want to say grandson, but... memory).

More focus on the Featheringtons, Pen and El (aside from doing their romances in their respective seasons for Pen and El) would be a mistake, imho.  They've all gotten more screen time than the leading couples so far (Saphne and Kanthony) - they need less, imo, not more.  I'm still upset with how Kanthony was shafted in their own season to the point Kate was severely under-developed - so any side plots going forward I really want to be focused on Kanthony, Kate and Benedict and/or Colin - not the Featheringtons or more El drama.

Backburner them for a season if the show is going to do Colin/Pen next and make sure to give the side plots to Kanthony and Benedict so we are ready for Benedict's story in the following season and the show can make it up to fans for under-focusing on Kanthony and the Kate and Anthony leads (Kate especially) in s2.

I get the writers love NC but I'm tired of Pen, I don't see her story with Colin having any heat at all and I'm even less interested in El's story unless it's with Theo, which as we know, deviates from the books.  Colin could be improved maybe, but Pen and El I need a long break from.  I hear we could do a time jump, but that almost infuriates me more because of all the Kanthony firsts we were robbed of.

If the show does Benedict next, backburners El/Pen drama and develops Colin a bit more and gives Kanthony a lot of side plot focus to delve into Kate's issues losing her mother and maybe working through that trauma with Anthony in a way that lets Kate have more growth/focus that she should have had in S2, that might work.  The only problem is the show would then be faced with a whole season devoted to Polin, or Polin+El's love story and I honestly am not sure the show would make it with the focus just on them.

As it is, I have a horrible feeling the show is going to take the "Kate insecurity" storyline from her book and drape it onto the Polin story when Pen has already had far more development than anyone except for maybe El.

The show needs to even up the screentime for Kanthony and Saphne (just recast Simon) and eventually Benophie vs. Pen/El/Featheringtons.

 

[bijoux]

I've been thinking of a few things. One, Colin and Penelope's story happening a lot earlier than in the books. Two, Colin being younger than in the books. Seeing as it's expected that next season will happen only a year later than this one, that will make them 22 and 19. Which makes them very close in age to Edmund and Violet when they got together (20 and 18). Who were childhood friends if memory serve.

So it makes me wonder if one of the reasons for setting their story up like this is to parallel Edmund and Violet. I don't really recall a connection to the parents' story in Romancing Mr. Bridgerton, and it was there on both the first two books and seasons.

[scarynikki12]

I can see that. I liked the glimpse of Edmund that we saw so any parallels to him and Violet could include more flashbacks to maybe the final year or so of his life. 

Since Benedict is being pushed back this means my hope to see him and Sophie have their moment at the ball is still in play. 

I love Nicola and can't wait to see what she does but what'shisname playing Coin will really need to step it up on directing charm, romantic feelings, and sexual chemistry towards Pen. I believe that he had a ton of friendly affection for her but haven't seen any hint of romantic or sexual undertones, even if unconscious. This will need to change by the end of the first episode if they're going to pull this off. 

[Roseanna]

On 4/18/2022 at 2:06 PM, HappyHanna said:

And her freezing up in the middle of wedding night consumation because he calls her beautiful, eye roll. 

Well, freezing up itself is quite realistic.

I have read biographies of women who married decades later and their letters show that many were really afraid of because their upbringing. To them, the wedding night was unlikely to be an instant bliss, indeed it could be even a traumatic experience. Some never learned to enjoy sex. 

On the other hand, some husband were so deeply buried their work, politics or interests that they didn't have time for their wives except in bed. If they had given their wives an emotional and intellectual relationship that women longed for it could perhaps in time have led to a better relationship in bed.

[bijoux]

I don't mind her freezing up, I do raise an eyebrow at Anthony only telling her she's beautiful and desirable once. I'm sorry, are you so busy you can't tell your wife she looks pretty now and again?

Throwing this out there - I think show Colin might be a virgin when he and Penelope get together. Anthony certainly presumed so on S1, and it would be another thing in line with his parents. I read the Violet in Bloom things and both Violet and Edmund were virgins when they married.

[Door County Cherry]

If they must kill Marina (I wish they wouldn't) I hope they change how--especially given what Ruby Barker is going through. 

[Roseanna]

On 5/26/2022 at 12:35 PM, bijoux said:

I don't mind her freezing up, I do raise an eyebrow at Anthony only telling her she's beautiful and desirable once. I'm sorry, are you so busy you can't tell your wife she looks pretty now and again?

This belongs to conventions of romance, but I just read a really good novel about a Latvian girl after WW2. When she was called beautiful, she found it fawning and lost all respect towards the boy, because she didn't regard herself beautiful.

[katha]

I thought the wedding night in the TVWLM book is a weird mash of bad romance tropes and actual decent writing for the characters Quinn created. So you have Anthony pressuring Kate at the beginning, which is supposed to denote "passion" or something but just comes off as creepy and manipulative. 

And then the actual wedding night that totally throws out the nonsense that Anthony was talking about before about not being able to control himself. And he reigns himself in and focuses on making things comfortable for Kate, as it should be. It's like two people almost. As if Quinn thought she had to throw out characterization to bring in some "alpha hero can't contain himself" trainwreck. 

[BrainyBlonde]

23 hours ago, Door County Cherry said:

If they must kill Marina (I wish they wouldn't) I hope they change how--especially given what Ruby Barker is going through. 

I just saw Ruby's video, and my mind went straight to, "Oh no, I hope she doesn't have to play out what happens to Marina on the show." I just really don't think that would be 1) good for her mental health and 2) a message the show wants to send out in these troubled times when so many people are struggling.

At this point, I feel like they just have to ditch Marina's suicide and Philip/Eloise altogether. With how Eloise's storyline has played out on the show thus far, there is no way they can ever convince me that she will be happy with a botanist, living out in the country, and being a stepmom. On the show, she's showed zero interest in children and she's so passionate about not being constrained by society. I really feel like Show Eloise will either fall in love with a social justice warrior or become one herself and spend her life on various causes, never getting married or settling down.

Edited May 29, 2022 by BrainyBlonde

[anamika]

I think Ruby Barker is an amazing actor. She brought a desperation and sadness to the character in season one that made her wholly sympathetic. I am not wed to the books and I honestly wouldn't mind, if Ruby can do it, to have Marina/Philip instead of Eloise/Philip - two people caught in the forced marriage trope falling in love. Parallel that with Eloise/Theo or introduce a new girl/guy for Eloise and make her bi. Have both stories in one season. I cannot imagine show Eloise with Philip.

Anyways, I wish Ruby all the best and hope she comes out of this happy. She seems glad to work on Bridgerton and I hope the Bridgerton producers, cast and crew continue to support her.

Edited May 29, 2022 by anamika

[katha]

Killing off Marina would have always seemd a very unfortunate choice IMO since they made her circumstances so very unhappy on the show. If they want to keep Philip and Eloise, why not do something actually radical to go with Eloise's convictions and have Philip and Marina divorce amicably despite the scandal or something because they have found that they make each other miserable? And then Eloise can defy conventions by getting together with a divorced man. Or they change the story and have Marina and Philip work on their marriage and fall in love, as you say. 

[quarks]

I had difficulty buying book Eloise agreeing to marry a botanist, stay out in the country, and be a stepmom. 

Show Eloise, definitely not. 

And it was one thing for the shadowy Marina, who suffered from untreated clinical depression in the books, to kill herself. I bought that. It's another thing for show Marina, who from what we've seen on the show so far, doesn't suffer from clinical depression and who seemed, based on her one appearance in the second season, content, if not happy, to kill herself.

I know that in real life, people with severe clinical depression can be amazingly good at hiding just how depressed they are. But this doesn't seem to be something that the show is trying to deal with/examine, nor do I think it should. Sir Philip seemed like a very nice guy on the show - nicer than he was in the books, honestly - but I still hope that Eloise ends up with someone else. 

[Cetacean]

@quarks, I agree with all of this.  I have not read the books so have no idea what happens there but the show personalities definitely do not support those scenarios at all.

Plus Sir Phillip (on screen) is as bland as vanilla pudding.  In no universe would El go for him.

[GaT]

7 hours ago, quarks said:

I had difficulty buying book Eloise agreeing to marry a botanist, stay out in the country, and be a stepmom. 

Show Eloise, definitely not.

I haven't read any of the books, so I have no idea what's she's like, but show Eloise is always talking about how girls should be allowed to go to university. What if by marrying Sir Phillip she gets to do that? That would probably get her to marry him.

[Enero]

45 minutes ago, GaT said:

I haven't read any of the books, so I have no idea what's she's like, but show Eloise is always talking about how girls should be allowed to go to university. What if by marrying Sir Phillip she gets to do that? That would probably get her to marry him.

Though the show is set in an AU I doubt Eloise would have this option considering the show already established this season that women are not allowed to attend University. 

I agree with @quarks  The writers are going to have to do some work to a) have Eloise even consider marrying since this past season she was vehemently opposed to it and b) to want to marry Philip and be a step mom. That seems to go against everything she is right now. It’ll be interesting to see if the show writers can believably write the evolution of Eloise’s character from staunch “feminist” to typical 19th century woman who embraces being a married and “silent” housewife with kids. 

[ouinason]

I think having Marina die in a different way would be fine.  Like, have her die in childbirth, that's completely realistic for the time. 

As for Eloise, right now, as a young adult, she is not interested in the family things, but she's going to get older and may change her position after a point where she thinks it's too late, leading her do make very different choices than she would now.  That is basically where book E ended up.  She had this plan to be a bluestocking and live out her spinster life with Penelope at her side and when that changed, she changed too.

[quarks]

3 hours ago, GaT said:

I haven't read any of the books, so I have no idea what's she's like, but show Eloise is always talking about how girls should be allowed to go to university. What if by marrying Sir Phillip she gets to do that? That would probably get her to marry him.

I could certainly see show Eloise agreeing to do scientific research with Sir Philip. The problem is, Sir Philip's interest in both the books and the show is botany, something show Eloise has shown zero interest in so far.

That said, although this doesn't happen in the books, it's definitely possible that Sir Philip might agree to support show Eloise's writing/research/social justice career. Which would certainly make this romance a bit more believable from the Eloise side of things - but doesn't solve the Marina problem.

1 hour ago, ouinason said:

As for Eloise, right now, as a young adult, she is not interested in the family things, but she's going to get older and may change her position after a point where she thinks it's too late, leading her do make very different choices than she would now.  That is basically where book E ended up.  She had this plan to be a bluestocking and live out her spinster life with Penelope at her side and when that changed, she changed too.

And that right there was my major problem with the book - it felt very much as if Eloise changed her plans because of what Penelope was doing, not because it was something Eloise would have done on her own. Add in all the "you absolutely have to marry him now," from Anthony, and although, yes, Eloise fell in love with Sir Philip and had written to him for some time before they actually met, and it felt very much to me as if Eloise was settling for second best.

So this is something I wouldn't mind the show changing. 

[anamika]

2 hours ago, ouinason said:

I think having Marina die in a different way would be fine.  Like, have her die in childbirth, that's completely realistic for the time.

The problem is that Marina is already a tragic character. As others have pointed out, unlike in the books, Marina is not some unknown entity. Her story and the ending to that story is already sad. Her going out that way in an already tragic tale just makes it worse. And tbh, Penelope getting her HEA with Colin and death for Marina would not be fun to watch for me personally.

[katha]

Pen being kinda implicated in a possible death/tragedy surrounding Marina is another problem they will have on their hands, that's true. By making LW so central in what happened to Marina, I don't know if it would reflect very well on Penelope. It can't be that hard to just not have Marina die... They've changed plenty of other stuff. I don't see why they have to cling to that. 

[methodwriter85]

58 minutes ago, katha said:

It can't be that hard to just not have Marina die... They've changed plenty of other stuff. I don't see why they have to cling to that. 

I get that a show has to tell the story they want to tell, but at the same time, the optics are really bad if they go through with Marina dying.

Also, again, I can't see Eloise being into being Maria von Trapp, especially if the show isn't doing a 7-year time jump to her and Penelope being 27 year olds.

Edited May 30, 2022 by methodwriter85

[parrotfeathers]

6 hours ago, katha said:

Pen being kinda implicated in a possible death/tragedy surrounding Marina is another problem they will have on their hands, that's true. By making LW so central in what happened to Marina, I don't know if it would reflect very well on Penelope. It can't be that hard to just not have Marina die... They've changed plenty of other stuff. I don't see why they have to cling to that. 

Lordy ain't that the gospel truth.  Some of it that doesn't do the books justice (not that they are literary icons).

[bijoux]

12 hours ago, methodwriter85 said:

I get that a show has to tell the story they want to tell, but at the same time, the optics are really bad if they go through with Marina dying.

Also, again, I can't see Eloise being into being Maria von Trapp, especially if the show isn't doing a 7-year time jump to her and Penelope being 27 year olds.

They obviously aren't doing the book jump for Penelope, which would be nine years from season 2, but it doesn't mean they can't do it for Eloise. Book Eloise's moved were greatly motivated by Penelope's story, but in the books they were as close as sisters and Colin was pretty much everyone's favorite. I can very well imagine that if the show gets to Eloise's story, it will be tied to Benedict who she's closest to.

Marina dying should definitely be off the table, but I have a hard time imagining the show changing any of the end Games, especially in this case, where they introduced Phillip so early on. I'm not ready to write off the two of them yet, but I imagine if the story gets told, it will diverge significantly from the book.