S02.E05: Kill Me

[ElectricBoogaloo]

I am glad that Maddie and Ed are still trying to work things out, even if means going to some hippie dippie "healing institute" where you walk around hugging strangers. At least they're both still willing to make an effort to fix things between them.

It broke my heart when the twins told Celeste that they would protect her and say whatever she wanted them to say.

I'm not advocating violence at all, but it's hard for me to get too upset when a bully gets a taste of his own medicine. But more importantly, I was glad that the twins were defending Ziggy and calling him their brother. When it came out at the beginning of the season that the kids knew the truth, I was afraid that the twins would gang up on Ziggy so I was really glad to see them running over to make sure everything was okay and then taking his side.

I hope Ed doesn't sleep with Tori just to get back at Maddie, mostly because Ed seems to be a nice guy and I think that if he gives in to temptation and rationalizes it as getting even with Maddie, I am 99% sure that he is going to hate himself afterward and that will just end up making things even worse.

Poor Jane really needs to get some therapy. She clearly wants to try to get over her trauma from Perry raping her so that she can be intimate with someone, but she's still stuck. I know people like to say time heals all wounds, but a lot of those wounds heal faster if you see a professional. You don't have to try to heal yourself.

9 hours ago, answerphone said:

Why was Madeline driving? To show she's the assertive one in the marriage?

Is Ed supposed to drive all the time because he's the one in the relationship with a penis? Not every heterosexual couple conforms to those stereotypes. A woman driving doesn't automatically mean she's showing that she's assertive. It just means that she's driving a car.

My parents each had their own car. When they went places together, sometimes they took a specific car for a reason (the other car was low on gas, one car had more space in the trunk if they were going grocery shopping, etc). When they took my mom's car, she drove it. When they took my dad's car, he drove it. But it had nothing to do with one of them being more assertive or dominant at the moment.

8 hours ago, Nordly Beaumont said:

Telling Meryl Streep "fuck you" really unleashed Nicole Kidman's accent.

Ha, I'm glad I wasn't the only one who noticed that! I don't mind Nicole using an American accent for Celeste, but I also don't see why she couldn't have used her Australian accent either since it doesn't change anything important about the character.

5 hours ago, ferjy said:

It’ll turn out that he got a parking ticket and being on the spectrum, he had to rush in to pay it promptly. 😀

When Bonnie saw him, I thought uh oh, she's going to assume he's a CI and tell Jane to dump him and then there's going to be a soap opera type twist where he was just there to pay a parking ticket or turn in a lost wallet that he found on the sidewalk or something innocuous! I won't be surprised if he is actually spying on Jane, but it would also be in character for him to do something like run straight to the police station because he saw someone littering or claiming to serve fresh local fish but actually serving frozen farmed fish.

[ferjy]

6 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

When Bonnie saw him, I thought uh oh, she's going to assume he's a CI and tell Jane to dump him and then there's going to be a soap opera type twist where he was just there to pay a parking ticket or turn in a lost wallet that he found on the sidewalk or something innocuous! I won't be surprised if he is actually spying on Jane, but it would also be in character for him to do something like run straight to the police station because he saw someone littering or claiming to serve fresh local fish but actually serving frozen farmed fish.

Ha ha, the fish just might be it!

Edited July 8, 2019 by ferjy

[humbleopinion]

Corey needs to work a side job to afford rent to live in Monterey Bay....dude is delivering GrubHub to the police station....where's my tarter sauce packets to go with my endangered, unsustainable  Chilean bass?...

Edited July 8, 2019 by humbleopinion

[ferjy]

8 minutes ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I'm not advocating violence at all, but it's hard for me to get too upset when a bully gets a taste of his own medicine.

I had to think, that scene would never have happened in real life. The bully wouldn’t have instigated a fight once the twins arrived. Bullies are cowards and are only brave when they’re one-on-one or with a group of bullies. He would have walked away when he saw it was their 3 against his 1. 

[Johnny Dollar]

I don’t think Corey is a cop. Probably a snitch, a rat, a stool pigeon. Or Confidential Informant #1 to the court. In any event, that town’s gotta have the lowest crime rate in the country to go to those lengths and costs to prosecute what is, at best (worst?), involuntary man’s laughter (tm G. Carlin) which would probably result in probation. Lt. Francie needs to let it go. 

[humbleopinion]

Where were the teachers/teacher aides working recess?

They would have stopped the bullying from escalating to a beat down....

Kayaking is not a reward, Ziggy ...yes, your father was a rapist... but look an otter!.....

[ferjy]

3 hours ago, Llywela said:

Haven't seen this ep - I haven't got access to season 2 just yet, but am being bad and reading along with all the reaction anyway, as spoilers. But I'm surprised to see references to Tori's husband - actor Santiago Cabrera when asked about S2 said he'd been invited back but the dates didn't work out so he couldn't do it. Have they recast the role? Or keeping Joseph to the shadows in a non-speaking capacity, with his wife stepping into the limelight?

They do in the UK - there have been some high profile cases in court recently where police officers went undercover for years, slept with and even married and had children with women involved in the activist groups they were infiltrating. Whether or not US cops employ similar tactics, and whether or not they would go to such lengths to try to prove a murder had been committed when the death has already been ruled accidental, that's another matter entirely.

It wouldn’t be regular police though. It’s usually specialists like in Counter Terrorism or the like. 

Edited July 8, 2019 by ferjy

[zobot81]

9 hours ago, Nordly Beaumont said:

I don't think Corey is really a cop, but if he is and he does have sex with Jane, that's hideous.

 I actually had some lingering doubts about it, even after the closing scene (and even though it went against my own theory about him being a cop). 

Spoiler

But the preview for the next episode all but confirms that he is at least working with the police.

Edited July 8, 2019 by zobot81

[zobot81]

I'd really really like some insight as to wtf is going on between Ed and Mr. and Mrs. Director.  No matter which way I slice it, that scene does not make sense to me.

Wouldn't Ed get up and walk away, once he sees the object of his wife's infidelity sitting across the bar from him, apparently observing him openly engage in heavy flirtation with his own wife? Is this leading up to a weird three-way situation?  Is Ed exacting some kind of "taste of your own medicine" revenge on Madeline?  I just do not understand where this is going at all, or how it informs Ed's relationship with Madeline, especially if Ed is complicit in the plan.

And was that dude creepily shaking his head in disapproval at him as the scene faded to black???  I mean, what is happening??

[mytmo]

Corey looks too small to be a cop - not in height.  In shorts my mother would say "I've seen better legs on a pool table".

[humbleopinion]

If Ed was going to boink anyone it would be Bonnie...lots of friendliness going on with those two... but that is neither here nor there

 BLL is turning into Peyton Place (how's that for a 40 year reference) when setting the world back on its axis is completed by Ed and Tori having sex...um, no...

The 2 cheatees making it right with retaliation sex for what their cheater spouses did a whole year ago....lazy script writing.....

Edited July 8, 2019 by humbleopinion

[sashayshante]

In the scene from last week's episode where Jane was telling Corey about the rape, there was something about his reaction upon learning Iggy was a product of rape that hinted at him having a personal investment in the narrative. Sure, it could have just been a choice by the actor, but that combined with how anxious he seemed to meet Ziggy suggests to me he has a personal connection to Perry and the murder. You'd have to be the worst cop ever to allow a child to get so attached to you knowing you wouldn't be sticking around.  Unless, of course, you're both a cop AND Perry's half-brother.

[Tripper]

1 hour ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I'm not advocating violence at all, but it's hard for me to get too upset when a bully gets a taste of his own medicine. But more importantly, I was glad that the twins were defending Ziggy and calling him their brother. When it came out at the beginning of the season that the kids knew the truth, I was afraid that the twins would gang up on Ziggy so I was really glad to see them running over to make sure everything was okay and then taking his side.

Yes, this is very unrealistic.  "Bullying" is a big issue in schools today and ALL the children would have been reprimanded...With the "Bully" perhaps getting the worst of the punishments.  

[cardigirl]

Am I the only one who dislikes Madeline?  She aggravates me no end, and I have no understanding of why the other women follow her lead with regard to the "accidental" death last season.  

I'm supposed to have some sympathy for her I guess, but I really really don't.  

[Tripper]

Meryl Streep is going to win major awards for this season.  But, I don't like how she has basically taken over the show, but "it is what it is", as the saying goes. I would like the show to focus more on the other characters and create new stories vs dragging out Perry's death.  Not sure why the women just didn't tell the truth...If he was "attacking" someone, anyone is legally permitted to help defend and if he slipped, so be it.  This case wouldn't take more than 10 minutes of a police department's time and effort, especially once they discovered all the husband's abuse in the marriage.

In addition, I seriously doubt any grandparent, especially a single one, would get any type of official custody of children, even in ultra liberal California.  Sure, maybe limited "visitation," but not custody.  Family courts today are very big on keeping family units together and unless the parent is a drug dealer, has a major addiction problem, or something very bad going on, the courts won't intervene.  Grieving and some depression aren't even close for petitioning the court based on "changing conditions" and the grandmother was already getting liberal visitation, thus, she has no standing in court. 

[Irlandesa]

5 hours ago, Llywela said:

Haven't seen this ep - I haven't got access to season 2 just yet, but am being bad and reading along with all the reaction anyway, as spoilers. But I'm surprised to see references to Tori's husband - actor Santiago Cabrera when asked about S2 said he'd been invited back but the dates didn't work out so he couldn't do it. Have they recast the role? 

Cabrera was credited. 

33 minutes ago, Tripper said:

Yes, this is very unrealistic.  "Bullying" is a big issue in schools today and ALL the children would have been reprimanded...With the "Bully" perhaps getting the worst of the punishments.  

I believe the principal said all four children, including the bully, were suspended. 

[CKTV123]

For now I'm willing to go with Corey being an undercover cop, maybe a rookie pulled in by Det. Quinlen to help her take down the "Monterey 5." She is hell bent to get them one way or another. Being there when Gordon Klein was arrested by the FBI? That was no accident. I kinda want to see her get egg on her face when it's all said and done but I suspect that won't happen. 

ML knows exactly what kind of man Perry was. He was the son she raised to be manipulative, violent, and ruthless. (That line about foreplay after Celeste slapped her was so ice cold and straight to the heart). And turning the tables on Renata, a tough, take no prisoners business woman who, in her own words, has had a target on her back from day one, was smooth as glass. You don't get as high up on the food chain as Renata did by letting Harriet Hausfrau get the drop on you like that. Which is why it's so frustrating to me that she didn't have a better handle on her personal finances rather than let Gordon do his thing with them but whatever. Live and learn Renata. And well done having some girl time with Amabella. It was long overdue.

[Mikay]

So I think my favorite part of this second season is the depiction of the long lasting effects of sexual assault and domestic violence.  These are topics that pop up here and there in films and on tv, but creators seem to be far less interested in the “unglamorous(this may be the wrong way to describe this, maybe more intensely frustrating is what I’m looking for?) aspects of trauma like the struggle to date post and the difficulty of being intimate even with a sweet and understanding partner post-assault or the self-recrimination(why didn’t you know better, maybe it’s your fault after all...). You’re far more likely to see a time jump or the appearance of “the one” person that pushes (easily and swiftly, remember the ratings! ) past a survivor’s defenses rather than the slow and painful claw back to normalcy. 

And I think that’s too bad because the after effects of an assault or prolonged abuse can be the hardest parts to survive for some including myself. When does the trauma from assault end? Does it ever end or just get easier to live with? Everyone is different of course, and for some it probably is much easier to recover, but I feel like there is an intense public discomfort with the fact that some survivors take a long time to be okay if they ever are. There can be a sentiment of well it was years ago, you should just be over it and it can make you feel defeated and broken when you are still trying to find your way back. 

A long way of saying that Shailene Woodley has been excellent and her storyline alone justifies season 2 for me.  Last season was clearly the year of Kidman, and I think this year was billed as the year of Meryl(who I think is doing pretty good work as well, she reminds me in certain ways of my own mother!), but Shailene has had some of the most difficult and emotionally painful scenes and she’s knocked it out of the park. 

[Razzberry]

1. 😁

[Blakeston]

There's only one scenario I could find remotely plausible in which Corey is aiding the police - if he's a civilian who was facing charges of his own, and the detective said, "Hey, you work at the aquarium? If you get me some information pertaining to Jane Chapman's involvement in that murder, I'll go easy on you." And then he came up with a plan on his own.

If he was actually a cop, and someone assigned him to romance a rape victim and befriend her son, just based on one detective's hunch that someone might have shoved a wife batterer, it would be an absolute PR disaster for the police department once word got out what they'd done.

[Melina22]

2 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

Ha, I'm glad I wasn't the only one who noticed that! I don't mind Nicole using an American accent for Celeste, but I also don't see why she couldn't have used her Australian accent either since it doesn't change anything important about the character.

I really enjoyed the episode as always but my personal and possibly unpopular opinion is that I wish they'd found someone else to play Celeste. Between her unnatural, CGI-d face, and her extremely dodgy accent, she pulls me out of every scene she's in. As soon as I see her, my suspension-of-disbelief is shot. 

But I enjoy everyone else, and think this show has the best child actors on TV. 

[Razzberry]

🤦‍♀️

[khyber]

4 hours ago, Haleth said:

I want to see one of the twins push grandma down the steps.  No doubt the story behind her other son dying will come out in court. 

I really think that the "evil" twin will do her in.  Also, I think that she or Perry is responsible for her other son's death.

[Broderbits]

I just don't understand why these women would keep interacting with ML,except that it's what the writers want. If someone punched me or my friends every time I saw her, I would actively avoid that person, not invite her into my home or introduce her to my children. Each of them has enough problems already and ML is making them look pretty stupid.

[Penman61]

Not that this show is known for psychological verisimilitude, but I'm calling total lazy writing bullshit on Mary Louise's "awesome takedown" of Renata.

Renata is in her mid40s, no? So she's been hearing shit about women trying to "have it all" for DECADES.

Totally a self-made multi-millionaire woman, was about to be lauded on the cover of a business mag, right?

And--in this year of our lord 2019--she's somehow "undone" by some 60-ish low-class frump (as Renata would see her) trying to accuse her of being a bad mother because she "tried to have it all?"

The Renata we knew up until this week (granted she's under extraordinary stress atm) would have smirked and slung some shit at the bowl-haircut no-name no-one and laughed--and then STILL have gotten the information she wanted out of ML. The idea that Renata would wither under such weak-ass shit really pisses me off.

Ugh, the writing on this show sometimes...

[BetyBee]

Perry's push down the stairs happened at a well attended public event, following a ruckus where he was kicking the crap out of his wife.  All of the principals are the "beautiful people" who everyone seemed to be watching constantly.  In fact, there were women at Trivia Night who were fawning over Perry.  I do not understand how there were no witnesses to the beating Celeste was getting or the push.  Instead we go down the road of an obsessed for no reason detective and apparently an undercover cop or informant going to great lengths.  Then there's Mary Louise who shows up everywhere and always seems to win in every situation.  I am not really enjoying this season.  I've gone this far, so I'll see it through, but at this point,  I want it to be over like a needed dental appointment.  

[BingeyKohan]

1 hour ago, Blakeston said:

There's only one scenario I could find remotely plausible in which Corey is aiding the police - if he's a civilian who was facing charges of his own, and the detective said, "Hey, you work at the aquarium? If you get me some information pertaining to Jane Chapman's involvement in that murder, I'll go easy on you." And then he came up with a plan on his own.

This is by far the most plausible scenario I've heard around what could be up with Corey. Although plausibility doesn't necessarily seem to be priority for the writers. But I hope you're right (I guess, though it still sucks for Jane and Ziggy, which feels like piling too much sorrow on them).

It might be that the producers don't trust Merrin Dungey's acting ability (Francie forever!) but I expected she'd be more of an outright antagonist this season, since her lighter-flicking was such a presence last season, creating the sense the women were being watched. It was hokey, but it even factored into the closing moments of season 1. She's been "around" this season but not used all that effectively, I don't think. Since Corey was the first (I believe, and possibly the only) character to actually use the phrase "Monterey 5" I guess with this new detail about him it's likely he heard it from the detective? And he used it strategically to get a reaction from Jane that time? We also never saw how the conversation between the detective and Mary Louise resolved itself. It's possible (again, given the low plausibility of these storylines) that the two of them cooked up the custody bid there as the conclusion of that convo.

Here's a minor nitpick that bugs me about Renata's lost magazine-cover fortunes. We saw the photo shoot (which was awesome). Later, she bragged to her husband (I think) that she was being featured in the "country's top women's magazine" (or something generic like that, so they didn't have to name one). But this episode the feature she lost out on was in "San Francisco magazine," which is...not the country's top women's magazine. It doesn't even sound like a magazine feature Renata would want to participate in in the first place, since it'd be a little small time for how she sees herself.

[dmc]

I think Ed’s biggest issue with Madeleine is he loves her more than she loves him or that is his perception. He’s watched her advocate fiercely for her friends but she seems passive about their relationship. Every ounce of passion Madeleine has in her other interactions is missing from her marriage.  Madeleine while viewing cheating as a mistake doesn’t seem cognizant over how she is with Ed versus everyone else.  Ed in turn doesn’t trust her because her behavior indicates something different than her words.  If someone tells you that they love you but you watch how they act when people they love and it’s completely different it’s hard to put any stock in it.

I don’t know how custody hearings work but it would seem to me Mary Louise has an uphill battle.  Celeste’s children are well provided for and aren’t being mistreated.  I would think she would have to convince a judge they aren’t being cared for.  

 

Edited July 8, 2019 by dmc

[BingeyKohan]

I've seen people note elsewhere that if the custody proceedings were really just a "perjury trap" (meaning ML doesn't want or expect to win, she just wants some under-oath statements about Perry's death) then she wouldn't have made the settlement offer of joint custody. I think maybe in the world of the show ultimately we're supposed to believe that she knew Celeste wouldn't take her up on that and would go to trial, meaning the "perjury trap" scenario was guaranteed to play out. Or maybe ML sees it as win-win: If Celeste had agreed outright to joint custody she'd have her grandsons on weekends (replicating the two boys scenario she once had, before Perry's brother died) OR if she didn't, she'd get to enact the perjury trap (and maybe still get the boys).

[Ms Blue Jay]

1 hour ago, Melina22 said:

I really enjoyed the episode as always but my personal and possibly unpopular opinion is that I wish they'd found someone else to play Celeste. Between her unnatural, CGI-d face, and her extremely dodgy accent, she pulls me out of every scene she's in. As soon as I see her, my suspension-of-disbelief is shot. 

You might be helping me realize why I was so confused last year when she was receiving all the accolades I thought someone else was deserving of.

[athousandclowns]

10 hours ago, JakeyJokes said:

She also asked Abigail about college knowing it would push Maddie's buttons. She is STONE COLD, that woman.

This might be too lurid for even this show, but I wonder if the Bachmans were playing with Ed like a weird sex thing (like cuckolding). Or I could just be a pervert and I'm sorry.

I like the Ed/Maddy story because usually it's a story about a woman being cheated on after a man has a "moment of weakness" and how the couple rebounds (or doesn't), so it's an interesting perspective for me. Kind of how the Bonnie story inverses the conventional gender roles with her mom as the stronger personality, if not abusive, and dad as the passive one.

We had just finished watching the original plus 2 episodes of Tales Of The City and said to myself I’m glad I’m old. 

Bonnie always looks stoned or on the  verge of falling asleep at the wheel. 

[QuinnM]

13 hours ago, ECM1231 said:

Idk if it is the way the episodes are filmed or if I need to adjust the settings on my TV, but I often find it difficult to make out what is happening.

I asked the people that set up my tv (here for a equipment change) why I could see Game of Thrones and other people couldn't. And they said your tv is set for movies not gaming.  He likes using GoT to check the set up since it is one of the darker things HBO televises.  So if you are set for gaming or you made compromises for gaming then you will have scenes that are darker than intended in movies.

[LibertarianSlut]

I liked this episode.  I enjoyed the custody scenes, and the many facets of a lawyer being a client.  I thought Renata was fabulous, except I agree that she would have never been taken down by Mary Louise so easily.  

What I guess I feel most strongly about this week is that we can't send our kids mixed messages.  If violence is "never" the answer, there is no "but" after that.  "Never" can't be modified.  I would have a much more nuanced discussion about how violence is usually not the answer, but it can be invoked under certain emergency circumstances (like Perry's death; not that she should use THAT as an example). I don't subscribe to that school of thought that violence is never the answer (if I see someone drowning a dog, I will attack them with force before I ask questions) but if Celeste does, she needs to start and end on that.  Jane too:  "I'm not rewarding bad behavior (me:  yes you are), BUT let's go kayaking while you're suspended from school for assaulting someone."

I don't believe in violence as a response to words.  Words are never a justifiable reason to resort to voilence.  The best way to combat bad speech is with more speech.  Just so that my position is 100% clear, it's my opinion that the "bully" should have been able to say Ziggy's dad was "a rapist" (a term I didn't fullly understand at their age) without physical reprecussions.  I don't even think he should have gotten suspended, considering he got sent to the hospital.  First of all, it's true.  Truth is an absolute defense to defamation.  Second of all, I am fine with the twins coming over to back up their half-brother, but violence had no place here.  The principal said the kid was in the hospital getting stitches in his lip.  I'm going to go all Celeste's therapist here and ask, "what if a kick had gone a few inches over and now the kid needs to breathe through a straw for life?"  Calling someone's dad a "rapist" makes you an asshole.  It shouldn't make you a candidate for violence, for the reasons I've stated.  <stepping off soapbox>

I thought it was odd that this was the second consecutive week this show put an emphasis on the word "unhinged."  I guess that's supposed to be the theme of the season.  Unsubtle much, though, show?

One of my TV pet peeves is how it seems like parents just have go much goddamn time to devote to their kids.  When I think of a single mother, like Jane, I don't expect her to basically be around 24/7.  Yes, she gave lip service to having to work at the aquarium, but then she said she was "getting off early."  Why?  Doesn't she need the money?  Especially given that we've got no indication that Jane is cashing Celeste checks.  Also, it seemed strange to me that Nathan was able to come to the hospital to collect Skye to take her to school.  When I was growing up, my dad was self-employed and I can count the number of times he dropped me off at school on one finger. I just think TV parents are constantly "around" these days, to impart wisdom at every turn, to shop, to be sitting on the couch when their kids come home from school, and that may be the experience of some parents these days, but it is not true of my experience, or the people I know, and it always takes me out of a scene when the parents both seem so hands-on, yet someone is clearly working full-time, and probably closer to an 80 hour week than a 40, and usually both parents are working, if we're being realistic.  

I know they need the parents there to make the show work, but it would have been so much more familiar to me if Nathan picked Skye up from the hospital and said he would drop Skye off on the way to this or that job (I don't know what he does for a living), and that he would see Bonnie later, at 10 pm.  Just one throwaway line would have changed the whole dynamic for me.

[BingeyKohan]

1 hour ago, BetyBee said:

 Then there's Mary Louise who shows up everywhere and always seems to win in every situation. 

You’re right! She’s like the villain in a superhero movie. If that’s true they usually win every battle except the final one. Playing by those rules she’d have to go down in open court, with the whole cast present, (and with Celeste representing herself for some reason). At this point I wouldn’t put it past the writers. 

[Llywela]

3 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

Cabrera was credited.

Thank you. So the real big little lie was him saying he wasn't going to be in this season!

[HollyG]

If I was Celeste, I'd hire a PI to dig up any/all the skeletons in ML's closet. And you know there are some. Anyone with this sort of manipulative, passive aggressive personality is bound to have made more than a few enemies.

Edited July 8, 2019 by HollyG

[izabella]

5 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I hope Ed doesn't sleep with Tori just to get back at Maddie, mostly because Ed seems to be a nice guy and I think that if he gives in to temptation and rationalizes it as getting even with Maddie, I am 99% sure that he is going to hate himself afterward and that will just end up making things even worse.

I don't think he will cheat with Tori.  I'm hoping he sees this as Tori's bid for revenge sex and recognizes it for what it is and wants no part of it.  If he's upset that Madeline doesn't love him enough, I can't see him wanting to have sex with someone who only wants to have sex with him to get back at her cheating husband.

I'm having a hard time believing the judge didn't throw the custody case out of her court.  It just seem so very unrealistic to me.  At the same time, it wouldn't hurt Celeste to stop taking Ambien and start taking the boys to therapy.

Edited July 8, 2019 by izabella

[BetyBee]

13 minutes ago, BingeyKohan said:

You’re right! She’s like the villain in a superhero movie. If that’s true they usually win every battle except the final one. Playing by those rules she’d have to go down in open court, with the whole cast present, (and with Celeste representing herself for some reason). At this point I wouldn’t put it past the writers. 

I could totally see that.  Maybe she'll get her comeuppance by a surprise witness testifying that she's unfit to have custody of the twins - because she killed her other son!

[Melina22]

I just had something cleared up. I thought Bonnie's mother said to her, "You killed me". I couldn't figure out if she was supposed to be channeling Perry, or implying Bonnie made her have a stroke.

It turns out she said the title of the episode, and wants to die. Awful. For her, obviously, but also for Bonnie who hasn't come to terms with the massive guilt she carries for causing Perry’s death. 

[CKTV123]

14 minutes ago, izabella said:

At the same time, it wouldn't hurt Celeste to stop taking Ambien and start taking the boys to therapy.

And stop picking up random men for rough boinking in the car, or bringing them home

Edited July 8, 2019 by CKTV123

[jeansheridan]

5 hours ago, humbleopinion said:

Corey needs to work a side job to afford rent to live in Monterey Bay....dude is delivering GrubHub to the police station....wh

I think this is the best theory this far.

I loved this quiet ep. I liked seeing how people dealt with various forms of anger. How the assistant tried to appease Renata, how Nathan got frustrated with Ed, how Bonnie spoke with her father, how the boys beat the crap out of that bully, how Celeste pulled back her anger when Max (?) called her a bitch.

BTW, I thought her response in that moment was great. Controlled anger. For the parents on this thread, has your kid ever called you a nasty name and how do you respond? I honestly don't think I would respond well. 

[izabella]

8 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

BTW, I thought her response in that moment was great. Controlled anger. For the parents on this thread, has your kid ever called you a nasty name and how do you respond? I honestly don't think I would respond well. 

Well, she could have done something to punish him, like taking away tv/ipad privileges.

[answerphone]

I'm laughing at the thought of the twins pushing their mean Grandma down the steps!

[Umbelina]

15 hours ago, ferjy said:

True, and he's too young for an FBI agent, but I guess he could be an informer pressured into the job.  But your point is exactly what I was implying. I amended my post for more emphasis. As if they'd go to that trouble for a custody case or even a murder of an abusive husband.

The actor is 34.  He's by far old enough, and frankly, young faces are a huge plus in most law enforcement agencies.  Still, I don't really think he's a cop.

12 hours ago, athousandclowns said:

I’m still confused about hiring a lawyer to get custody of grandchild. If there was neglect or unsafe  environment then   CPS would step in grandparents have no rights to even see grandchildren unless they took care or had custody at some point.  I was watching with a friend who left room several times kso I did not see Cory at police station.  

ML has been gathering a lot of dirt, including drug use, driving under the influence, both boys acting out, etc.

I wonder if it's really about custody though, or if it is more about pushing everyone of ML's suspects in her son's death to the limit, in hopes of someone breaking.

8 hours ago, Blakeston said:

Mary Louise isn't making sense to me as a character. She seems like a tool the writers are using to aggravate the other characters as much as possible, and raise the tension in a soapy way - as opposed to an actual human being.

They've made it seem like she's doing anything she can to get control and information. But then why would she blatantly antagonize Renata? If she was looking for control, she would have played nice with her, tried to get some info out of her, and used Renata's influence to her advantage.

Or is she just furious about Perry, and hellbent on punishing the women who she thinks murdered him? If that's the case, then why would she offer to withdraw her guardianship bid in exchange for weekend custody - thereby losing her shot at a perjury trap?

She's pushing every button of "the five" and I think that's deliberate.  All it takes is one of them breaking, and she will have her answers.

How much is it just ML's "real personality" and how much of it is her playing a role to expose these women and possibly to "protect" her grandchildren?

6 hours ago, Johnny Dollar said:

I don’t think Corey is a cop. Probably a snitch, a rat, a stool pigeon. Or Confidential Informant #1 to the court. In any event, that town’s gotta have the lowest crime rate in the country to go to those lengths and costs to prosecute what is, at best (worst?), involuntary man’s laughter (tm G. Carlin) which would probably result in probation. Lt. Francie needs to let it go. 

My guess is that he's a P.I. hired by ML, and he's cooperating with the police. 

I can't think of a reason this would be an FBI case, but I CAN see how it might be a "big" case. 

The charges could include all of these things and possibly more:

Conspiracy to Commit 1st Degree Murder.

1st Degree Murder

Then of course, lesser murder charges if needed.

Perjury is also now in the mix, and honestly, it's likely that at least one will break, and that's ML's main goal I think.

"But Perry was trying to kill Celeste!"  Or, he was fighting for his life against 5 women bent on murder.

"But Perry beat Celeste for years!" Why didn't she tell anyone?  Why did she insist to her shrink it was mutual?  Why did she tell everyone how great her marriage/life/husband was?

"But Perry raped Jane!"  Or, Jane knowingly had sex with a married man, and called it rape once she realized she was pregnant and/or dumped.

The doubt in juror's minds especially about "WHY DID THEY LIE if they didn't have a lot to hide?" is significant. 

"Because Maddy told us to" is really not going to hold water here.  IF it was, as they claim, a clear case of "defense of others, accidental death" then why the hell lie for months?

A custody case can blow the whole death of her son wide open, and ML, I think, knows that.

[Jodithgrace]

Well, I was happy to see that Bonnie's class was some weird therapy for sleep apnea, because my weekly yoga class never includes floor singing and I was a bit disappointed. 

[Blakeston]

 

 

 

 

3

9 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

She's pushing every button of "the five" and I think that's deliberate.  All it takes is one of them breaking, and she will have her answers.

How much is it just ML's "real personality" and how much of it is her playing a role to expose these women and possibly to "protect" her grandchildren?

My guess is that he's a P.I. hired by ML, and he's cooperating with the police. 

I can't think of a reason this would be an FBI case, but I CAN see how it might be a "big" case. 

The charges could include all of these things and possibly more:

Conspiracy to Commit 1st Degree Murder.

1st Degree Murder

Then of course, lesser murder charges if needed.

Perjury is also now in the mix, and honestly, it's likely that at least one will break, and that's ML's main goal I think.

"But Perry was trying to kill Celeste!"  Or, he was fighting for his life against 5 women bent on murder.

"But Perry beat Celeste for years!" Why didn't she tell anyone?  Why did she insist to her shrink it was mutual?  Why did she tell everyone how great her marriage/life/husband was?

"But Perry raped Jane!"  Or, Jane knowingly had sex with a married man, and called it rape once she realized she was pregnant and/or dumped.

The doubt in juror's minds especially about "WHY DID THEY LIE if they didn't have a lot to hide?" is significant. 

"Because Maddy told us to" is really not going to hold water here.  IF it was, as they claim, a clear case of "defense of others, accidental death" then why the hell lie for months?

A custody case can blow the whole death of her son wide open, and ML, I think, knows that.

But if that's her goal, why would she make Celeste an offer that would end the need for anyone to testify?

[Umbelina]

1 minute ago, Blakeston said:

But if that's her goal, why would she make Celeste an offer that would end the need for anyone to testify?

Good point, but possibly  the long game.  If Celeste agrees, it's possible that could be used in a murder trial as well?  I wonder if ML is taping anything?  She certainly has been in the house enough to have that all set up.

[Melina22]

11 minutes ago, Jodithgrace said:

Some weird therapy for sleep apnea, because my weekly yoga class never includes floor singing and I was a bit disappointed. 

I'm still not sure why I found that whole scene so deeply weird and yet hilarious. And so Californian. It was something about all the voices following them out of the room, so funny and yet their conversation was so heavy. Very odd juxtaposition, but I really enjoyed it. 

[Cheezwiz]

36 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I wonder if it's really about custody though, or if it is more about pushing everyone of ML's suspects in her son's death to the limit, in hopes of someone breaking.

Yes, I think this is what she's up to - relentlessly poking and prodding, looking for weak spots. She's convinced her perfect precious son was the victim of a pre-meditated murder by a cabal of women, and she wants someone to crack. If she gets custody of her grandkids in the bargain, then that's icing on the cake for her.

I'm still not sure about Corey being a cop or PI - perhaps he was at the police station for some innocuous reason, but time will tell.

[UsernameFatigue]

3 hours ago, Penman61 said:

Not that this show is known for psychological verisimilitude, but I'm calling total lazy writing bullshit on Mary Louise's "awesome takedown" of Renata.

Renata is in her mid40s, no? So she's been hearing shit about women trying to "have it all" for DECADES.

Totally a self-made multi-millionaire woman, was about to be lauded on the cover of a business mag, right?

And--in this year of our lord 2019--she's somehow "undone" by some 60-ish low-class frump (as Renata would see her) trying to accuse her of being a bad mother because she "tried to have it all?"

The Renata we knew up until this week (granted she's under extraordinary stress atm) would have smirked and slung some shit at the bowl-haircut no-name no-one and laughed--and then STILL have gotten the information she wanted out of ML. The idea that Renata would wither under such weak-ass shit really pisses me off.

Ugh, the writing on this show sometimes...

I actually loved this scene because I thought it was quite believable. While Renata is a brilliant business woman, we have seen her come unhinged several times when confronted with real life situations. I know a few business women who are extremely successful in business, but a mess where their own lives are concerned. And I watch enough true crime shows to know that this is often the case, where successful women make mind boggling stupid decisions in their personal lives. 

The fact that Renata is a self made woman, but her husband was able to bankrupt her is one. And really, why would Renata think that a magazine would feature her as a self made successful woman when it is known that she is going through bankruptcy, even if it was caused by her husband? Because she is Renata. 

I love Laura Dern in this role, and love MS as Mary Louise. Just because ML may look like a frumpy 60 something nothing, doesn't mean she isn't smarter and more cunning than any of these women. Age, looks and even education have nothing to do with how smart and cunning someone is.