S02.E02: Tell Tale Hearts

[sashayshante]

14 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

He's trying really hard and he seems so sweet with Bonnie. How many guys call in their mother in laws for help?

While he's not evil in any way, Nathan has no emotional intelligence whatsoever. he knows your basic feelings - anger, sadness, happiness - but that's about it. What bothers him most about Bonnie's depressive state is that she's not there for him in any way. It's not really about her, it's about how her emotional shut down makes him feel.

 

13 hours ago, Razzberry said:

Ed may want to compare notes with the director's wife.

Is that tea you're brewing? Do spill.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

4 minutes ago, sashayshante said:

Is that tea you're brewing? Do spill.

I think @Razzberry is referring to Boobs McGee from the previous episode.

[Chaos Theory]

7 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

It's a bit murky, but it was some sort of major securities fraud, which was apparently at the Federal level, since the FBI picked him up and tossed him in the clink. It seems he had been covering his ass for quite some time with both his and Renata's money, and now *poof* it's all gone. Lara Dern's Type A privilege rage was making me laugh all through the episode. She was more furious at the prospect of being poor than the fact that her husband committed a Federal offence.

It was hardly privileged rage though.  It wasn’t like she stole the money herself.  She worked hard for it.  I would be pissed too if my husband told me he emptied our joint funds without my consent.  I wouldn’t give a shit about the federal offense.   He stole from me.

I think this episode was in large part about how much you tell your kids vs how much they actually know.  Do you need to tell a young child that he is a product of rape?   What do you tell him when he finds out?   How much of the truth about their father does Celeste tell her own sons?  How much do they know?  Their go to emotion is anger so it might actually be a good idea for Celeste to be more open with her kids but does that mean telling them the whole truth?   Madeline’s younger daughter eves dropping caused a lot of trouble for everyone and even Bonnie’s daughter knows “something” is wrong with her mother.  

I find Nichole Kidman crush worthy good looking but that is just me. 

Edited June 17, 2019 by Chaos Theory

[Haleth]

6 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

I think Celeste mentioned in her own therapy session that her boys are seeing a therapist, but we  haven't seen any evidence of it on the show, and their behavior certainly doesn't seem to be improving.

She gave a very vague yes when asked about their therapy, as if maybe she'd taken them once or twice then neglected to follow up.  Celeste seems to want to ignore the effects on the boys, but more and more it's apparent she can't close her eyes to their behavior.  In addition, as soon as Mary Louise started denying her precious boy had a problem, not only suggesting Celeste herself was part to blame but then questioning Jane's story, that would be the time Celeste should have asked ML to leave immediately.  

The child actors in this show are remarkable.  

[skotnikov]

9 hours ago, Melina22 said:

The child actors in this show are top notch. Nothing ruins a scene more than a terrible child actor. 

Or an old Hollywood grande dame, who thinks just her presence in a frame is a greatest gift to a humankind. Meryl Streep is so camp in this, it's really hard to watch. . 

[skotnikov]

This last episode screams "I was made for college students in  American studies, Women's studies and Media studies to analyse me in their second year classes!"  Those dialogs are just so in your face constructed, it's ridiculous. But still I can't take my eyes from Reese Witherspoon, she's such a great actress.  

[BeatrixK]

I am going to find ways to work 'Will Someone Give a Woman a MOMENT' into my everyday conversation.

I do NOT expect this show to turn on my water works, but damn if that scene with Ziggy meeting his demon-spawn half brothers didn't do just that.  The kid who plays Ziggy is outstanding!

Meryl -- I continue to be amazed at your prowess.  I love your work...always have, always will...and you manage to make me beg to give a grieving mother a solid punch in the ovaries.  With a truck.

Madaline -- Girl, you're screwed.  Ed Tee Hee...call me!

Edited June 17, 2019 by BeatrixK
I'm an idiot and should never post prior to coffee.

[PepSinger]

I actually think the writing has been one of the major highlights of the new season, particularly this episode.

[jeansheridan]

1 hour ago, Blakeston said:

But Nathan with Bonnie? They have yet to give us any clue what that's about.

I for one find him quite handsome. They have a beautiful home which I don't think was paid for entirely by her yoga studio. He seems to love and care about her. They have a beautiful daughter and he seems to try with Abigail. Other than his jerky ways with Ed he seems to be an okay guy. Ed appears to be his outlet for his anger. 

I don't even see Mary Louise's teeth. And now that we know Celeste is deeply alone (no family at all) her neediness becomes more understandable. 

What I will enjoy is seeing Jane deal with Mary Louise! Oh boy. Jane isn't tough like Maddie but I think she really knows herself and how she wants to raise Ziggy. 

Plus you know Jane looks good in waders! Hee. I did like seeing her chat with Bonnie over yoga. That was nicely organic. The show needs to slip more of those friend moments in.

Also Shailene is of course a very pretty person but it is kind of amazing how her dark hair really detracts from her looks. I saw her in the sailing movie when she has her long blonde hair and it just suits her more. She looks sporty and beachy. This hair weighs her down but good on her for going for a character choice rather than the glamorous choice.

[teddysmom]

I thought this episode was much more powerful than last week, it was as if they dialed all the drama up and dialed back the pettiness. 

So Bonnie's mother is an alcoholic and practices some weird magical science?  What about the comment "what did you do THIS TIME". 

Celeste is in such denial, saying "we were violent with each other". What in the fucking fuck? Yeah he beat the shit out of you and you hit him back.  You weren't having agreed upon cage matches in the back yard. 

She doesn't need Mary Louise. She had a nanny before.  I think we could have done without Meryl. At one point it looked like the false teeth were coming out.   What is her beef with Madeline?  She barely knows her. 

I was surprised Jane went into detail with Ziggy, he's a little young to be told you're the product of rape.  

Madeline should take her daughter's phone, remove the SIM card, and lock it up. And ground her for about a year.  That child is going to be a real delight when she grows up. I was wondering when Madeline's behavior would start catching up with her. 

I really don't understand why Jane & Celeste think it's a good idea to tell three seven year old boys they're related due to their father"having an affair".  We brought cookies! Let's talk about what a dick Dad was!! 

8 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

Also Shailene is of course a very pretty person but it is kind of amazing how her dark hair really detracts from her looks. I saw her in the sailing movie when she has her long blonde hair and it just suits her more. She looks sporty and beachy. This hair weighs her down but good on her for going for a character choice rather than the glamorous choice.

I keep seeing the very end of that sailing movie when the bird lands on the boat. Agree she looks better with lighter hair. 

[jeansheridan]

1 hour ago, sashayshante said:

What bothers him most about Bonnie's depressive state is that she's not there for him in any way. It's not really about her, it's about how her emotional shut down makes him feel.

This is fair. I think I may be a bit like him. I mean, if I ask a few times and don't get an answer, I would give a person space. And it seems like he has been asking for advice. Maybe he should talk to the new teacher?  Is there anything cuter than a tall dude sitting on the floor surrounded by kiddos? Nope. If he's unattached Jane needs to get her tush in there.

[jeansheridan]

7 minutes ago, teddysmom said:

was surprised Jane went into detail with Ziggy, he's a little young to be told you're the product of rape.  

She only told him because of Chloe. All last season she protected him from that truth. But the moment the word "assault" came up and she knows Chloe is talking, what can you do? It's like kids exchanging horrifically bad birth control advice. You can only counter bad information with correct information. 

I still wish we had heard her explaination. I am not sure David E. Kelly knew how to write it. But just like explaining sex or good touch/bad touch or death, there has to be a way to cover an assault. Maybe not full on rape, but he knows what bullying looks like.

[Melina22]

1 hour ago, skotnikov said:

Or an old Hollywood grande dame, who thinks just her presence in a frame is a greatest gift to a humankind. Meryl Streep is so camp in this, it's really hard to watch. . 

It's odd. In one way she's wonderful. And yet she keeps taking me out of the show. When she was fiddling with her necklace talking to Madeline I thought, "No one else would do that! I love it!" but then I was thinking about her acting, not accepting her as a character. Maybe camp is a good description. 

[zobot81]

I had to get up and leave the room a couple of times during this episode.  I really felt my own emotions getting gnarled up in these characters' fictional lives -- which I suppose is the whole point of drama.  But not to the extent that I'm muttering hot fury at Maryl Streep under my breath, as if Mary Louise is a real person who I genuinely loathe, for God's sake.  Christ that woman is complicated and hateful.

The technique Celeste's therapist uses to illicit self-compassion -- or at least the possibility of self-compassion, whether fully felt or not in that moment -- is expertly applied.  It's often difficult for people who suffer from chronic low-self-worth and esteem to see themselves as deserving of love.  Certainly, people who are in abusive relationships have a bleak self-image.  So asking Celeste to do something as simple as to replace herself with a loved-one in the memory of an assault was shrewd and I think quite powerful to watch.

[Magoo]

With the reveal about Bonnie’s mom’s drinking history and her dad’s quiet personality, are we to assume the abuse alluded to last season was at the hands of her mother?

[MaggieG]

As the kids would say, Renata was a mood.

[jeansheridan]

6 minutes ago, Magoo said:

With the reveal about Bonnie’s mom’s drinking history and her dad’s quiet personality, are we to assume the abuse alluded to last season was at the hands of her mother?

Are we sure that was her dad? Or is he a stepfather? I really couldn't tell from that scene. And Martin Donovan is too big an actor to waste like that so he better get more lines.

I like Laura Dern a lot but felt she was way too cartoonish in this ep. The only time I felt was true was when she went back in the car to pick up her husband. And maybe crawling into bed with her daughter. She was funny and the show needs some humor but it was excessive. 

[msrachelj]

11 hours ago, Melina22 said:

The child actors in this show are top notch. Nothing ruins a scene more than a terrible child actor. 

You're right about Bonnie's coming from an abusive family. I'd forgotten! They do refer to the mother having a past drinking problem, but that's it. 

The actresses are all excellent. I particularly like Reese and Laura. But I'll never not be bothered by Nicole's too-smooth-to-be-real face, or Meryl's stunt teeth. They don't look fake, exactly, but my brain knows they're not her teeth. 

That said, I'm really enjoying the season so far. 

Nicole looks like she's been dippped in wax. It is actually scary looking. Even worse when she is "wearing" her natural hair. What the hell is she doing to her face?

52 minutes ago, teddysmom said:

I thought this episode was much more powerful than last week, it was as if they dialed all the drama up and dialed back the pettiness. 

So Bonnie's mother is an alcoholic and practices some weird magical science?  What about the comment "what did you do THIS TIME". 

Celeste is in such denial, saying "we were violent with each other". What in the fucking fuck? Yeah he beat the shit out of you and you hit him back.  You weren't having agreed upon cage matches in the back yard. 

She doesn't need Mary Louise. She had a nanny before.  I think we could have done without Meryl. At one point it looked like the false teeth were coming out.   What is her beef with Madeline?  She barely knows her. 

I was surprised Jane went into detail with Ziggy, he's a little young to be told you're the product of rape.  

Madeline should take her daughter's phone, remove the SIM card, and lock it up. And ground her for about a year.  That child is going to be a real delight when she grows up. I was wondering when Madeline's behavior would start catching up with her. 

I really don't understand why Jane & Celeste think it's a good idea to tell three seven year old boys they're related due to their father"having an affair".  We brought cookies! Let's talk about what a dick Dad was!! 

I keep seeing the very end of that sailing movie when the bird lands on the boat. Agree she looks better with lighter hair. 

The dark hair is pretty bad looking. 

[monakane]

29 minutes ago, msrachelj said:

Nicole looks like she's been dippped in wax. It is actually scary looking. Even worse when she is "wearing" her natural hair. What the hell is she doing to her face?

Nicole's botox look doesn't bother me.  It fits the character of a wealthy woman in that part of the country.

[answerphone]

In some scenes, Nicole is absolutely gorgeous.

In other scenes, depending on the lighting and camera angle, I'd agree she looks like an artificial wax figure.

[janey99]

3 hours ago, skotnikov said:

Or an old Hollywood grande dame, who thinks just her presence in a frame is a greatest gift to a humankind. Meryl Streep is so camp in this, it's really hard to watch. . 

Agree, I can't decide if she's Mrs. Doubtfire or Thelma Harper!

[janey99]

3 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I for one find him quite handsome. They have a beautiful home which I don't think was paid for entirely by her yoga studio. He seems to love and care about her. They have a beautiful daughter and he seems to try with Abigail. Other than his jerky ways with Ed he seems to be an okay guy. Ed appears to be his outlet for his anger. 

I don't even see Mary Louise's teeth. And now that we know Celeste is deeply alone (no family at all) her neediness becomes more understandable. 

What I will enjoy is seeing Jane deal with Mary Louise! Oh boy. Jane isn't tough like Maddie but I think she really knows herself and how she wants to raise Ziggy. 

Plus you know Jane looks good in waders! Hee. I did like seeing her chat with Bonnie over yoga. That was nicely organic. The show needs to slip more of those friend moments in.

Also Shailene is of course a very pretty person but it is kind of amazing how her dark hair really detracts from her looks. I saw her in the sailing movie when she has her long blonde hair and it just suits her more. She looks sporty and beachy. This hair weighs her down but good on her for going for a character choice rather than the glamorous choice.

So funny, I thought the blond hair in adrift detracted from her looks (although, TBH, I don't think she is particularly attractive in general).

[DoubleUTeeEff]

I wonder if actresses would get more comments on how old they look than comments they get on how much work they got done. All I know is they can't win for losing unless they want to quit working while they are still young.

Now I'll be a hypocrite and comment on Shailene Woodley's hair. I think she looks fine with either light or dark hair but I think the bangs are a mistake. 

I love how Madeleine had a "short person emergency." Quick, get something off of a high shelf for me!

Renata really cracks me up. Someone up thread said that she would never make it as a CEO but we've only seen her outside of work so I don't think we can make that judgement. She could totally keep it together at work and only blow up in her private life. In fact, she might be able to keep her cool while she's in control; it's only when she's not in control, for example Amabella's bullying, that she has trouble keeping a lid on things. Plus, I think her reaction to her husband's betrayal was 100% earned and appropriate. Who wouldn't lose it in that situation?

Mary Louise's response to Jane's rape and Celeste's abuse at the hands of Perry was so frustrating but so realistic. There are always people who make excuses for harassers and assaulters. Probably especially so if it is their family or friend.

I'm a little weirded out by Bonnie's mother. I gather she's some kind of psychic. I wonder why she had to wait until Nathan reached out to her before she figured out anything was wrong with her daughter.

[iMonrey]

Quote

And it was revealed Perry had a brother who died? 

No, I think Mary Louise was referring to when her husband died, and she didn't think she could go on, but did for Perry's sake. Just like Celeste will be able to carry on for the sake of her children.

Quote

So Bonnie's mother is an alcoholic and practices some weird magical science? 

She put a crystal and two other small objects onto Bonnie's dresser. I don't think that indicates she practices voodoo or anything. I think she's just a New-Ager who also has visions/premonitions. It appears that Bonnie has inherited her "gift" but rejects it and doesn't want anything to do with it.

Quote

But I'll never not be bothered by Nicole's too-smooth-to-be-real face

For me it's the eyes. Once an actress has her eyes done they never look the same. I understand the motivation in Hollywood, and assume these actresses are going to the top professionals in their field. But two women can go to the same doctor and have the exact same procedure done, and one will come out looking great, and the other will look horrible. It just depends on the individual's face. I don't think I'd take the risk. Sometimes you have to accept the fact that a particular career choice has a shelf life. Athletes do.

[Eyes High]

4 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

She only told him because of Chloe. All last season she protected him from that truth. But the moment the word "assault" came up and she knows Chloe is talking, what can you do? It's like kids exchanging horrifically bad birth control advice. You can only counter bad information with correct information. 

I still wish we had heard her explaination. I am not sure David E. Kelly knew how to write it. But just like explaining sex or good touch/bad touch or death, there has to be a way to cover an assault. Maybe not full on rape, but he knows what bullying looks like.

I'm guessing the omission of the actual explanation was done to protect Ziggy's actor. I don't know exactly how old I was when I figured out was rape was, but I know it was older than that.

3 hours ago, Melina22 said:

It's odd. In one way she's wonderful. And yet she keeps taking me out of the show. When she was fiddling with her necklace talking to Madeline I thought, "No one else would do that! I love it!" but then I was thinking about her acting, not accepting her as a character. Maybe camp is a good description. 

I read somewhere a long time ago that Meryl's acting was terrible because she was guilty of "indicating," and this is some sort of actorly mistake. I don't know what "indicating" means, but maybe that's the sort of thing you're mentioning.

Edited June 17, 2019 by Eyes High

[Chaos Theory]

What I find weird is that instead of commenting on how wonderful it is to have a highly praised story with well respected actresses we are all commenting on silly things like their looks.  Honestly I would never have known Nichole Kidman had work done except people keep bringing it up.  I honestly thing Celeste is the best character on the show and NK acting is incredible.   I loved the scene where her shrink told her to picture Madeline in one of the abusive situations with Perry.   I also really loved her scene with her kids when one of them lashed out at her and she violently pushed him away.  

My other favorite character is Reneta.   I loved her reaction to finding out her husband was probably going to cost them all their money.  The scene at the prison and the one in the car was some high caliber acting.   

Edited June 17, 2019 by Chaos Theory

[zobot81]

1 hour ago, DoubleUTeeEff said:

I wonder if actresses would get more comments on how old they look than comments they get on how much work they got done. All I know is they can't win for losing unless they want to quit working while they are still young.

(Despite the follow-up comment about hair lol) I would like to second the motion that, to a troubling extent, conversations about how these actresses look is starting to outweigh more substantive dialogue about performances and story -- which I do not care for.  

Edited June 17, 2019 by zobot81

[Melina22]

20 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

What I find weird is that instead of commenting on how wonderful it is to have a highly praised story with well respected actresses we are all commenting on silly things like their looks.  

I hear what you're saying but I think it's a YMMV situation. If you didn't notice any of the stuff we're discussing I can see how all our comments could seem silly and nitpicking. On the other hand, for some of us, an actress with a very artificial face takes us completely out of the moment, and sort of spoils things. 

Here's an example from my all time favourite show, Battlestar Galactica. (the second one.) In the first few seasons I was utterly riveted by Mary McDonnell. She was incredible. She blew Meryl Streep out of the water. I totally accepted her as her character. I also loved her expressive, mobile face, which looked her age. 

Then when Season 3(?) started I was horrified. She'd had a bunch of work done. I don't know what, but she had trout lips and her face just looked stiff and... off. For all that season, my acceptance of her character was 80% ruined by her unnatural face. Thank goodness it gradually became more natural looking over the next couple of seasons. 

This isn't a judgment on the actresses as people, it's just that for me personally, an actress with an odd, alien-looking face distracts me so much I can't suspend disbelief and accept them as their character. It's not a choice, it's just something my brain does. 

[Melina22]

1 hour ago, Eyes High said:

I read somewhere a long time ago that Meryl's acting was terrible because she was guilty of "indicating," and this is some sort of actorly mistake. I don't know what "indicating" means, but maybe that's the sort of thing you're mentioning.

That's so interesting. I can tell I'll be going down an internet rabbit hole researching it. That said, Meryl's been excellent in certain movies. I thought she was fabulous in The Devil Wears Prada and The French Lieutenant's Woman. And she was great in Death Becomes Her because she played such a campy character. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

2 hours ago, iMonrey said:

No, I think Mary Louise was referring to when her husband died, and she didn't think she could go on, but did for Perry's sake. Just like Celeste will be able to carry on for the sake of her children.

In the flashback where Perry asked Celeste about her family, he told her he had a brother who died when he was 5.

Since Perry was such a textbook abuser, asking about her family was his way of screening her as a potential victim. It’s a lot easier to isolate and abuse someone who doesn’t have family members and a support system. If she had said she had three older brothers who used to follow her in their cars when she dated in high school or a gaggle of sisters who were constantly at her house, he would have dropped her like a hot potato because it would have been a lot harder to keep the abuse a secret.

Edited June 17, 2019 by ElectricBoogaloo

[FozzyBear]

5 hours ago, Magoo said:

With the reveal about Bonnie’s mom’s drinking history and her dad’s quiet personality, are we to assume the abuse alluded to last season was at the hands of her mother?

I wondered that too. Or maybe the guy isn’t her Dad. Did Bonnie ever call him Dad? Or talk to him at all? Maybe he’s a step father. Drunk mom, abusive father. Maybe this isn’t the first time Bonnie pushes a violent man to his death.

[howivesforever]

20 minutes ago, FozzyBear said:

I wondered that too. Or maybe the guy isn’t her Dad. Did Bonnie ever call him Dad? Or talk to him at all? Maybe he’s a step father. Drunk mom, abusive father. Maybe this isn’t the first time Bonnie pushes a violent man to his death.

Her mother clearly referenced him as her father.

[iMonrey]

Quote

What I find weird is that instead of commenting on how wonderful it is to have a highly praised story with well respected actresses we are all commenting on silly things like their looks.  

I don't think it's "silly." An actor's appearance is part of their commodity. A painter's tool is a brush, a sculptor's tool is a chisel, an actor's tools are their face and body. That's just the way it is. If they can't handle people talking about their appearance they're in the wrong profession. Let's face it, there are tons of actors who get jobs based on their looks rather than their talent. That's usually their foot in the door. They can act their asses off but if they don't look right it takes you out of the scene.

Quote

Honestly I would never have known Nichole Kidman had work done except people keep bringing it up. 

Really? I think it's obvious to anyone familiar with her earlier work. And I would recognize the tell-tale signs of an eye job if I'd never seen her before in anything else.

That said, I don't find it overly distracting or out of character for the role she's playing.

[Plums]

As much as I'm genuinely enjoying this, it is so extremely hard to get past the idea that the lie that is the central premise for this season's conflict makes no dramatic sense at all because Bonnie pushing Perry in that circumstance was completely justifiable, and it's not even up for debate. If the drama comes more from Madeleine impulsively deciding to lie about it for whatever reason and thus needlessly forcing the rest of them to go along with it and creating a problem where there otherwise wouldn't be one, then that's something at least. There's been hints of that, like this episode when she immediately decided to spin an yarn about needing Celeste's help with an emergency to Mary Louise, when the truth (or at least what Celeste told her and the police) is relatively innocuous and understandable for a grieving widow, so I'm hopeful this will feel less clumsy moving forward. 

Other things-
Renata is so fucking extra and I adore her.

I kind of love that we have these different marriages going through hardship, and seeing the comparison over how they're handling it and what it says about the marriages and the characters in them. Like, Nathan is super weird with Ed for some reason I don't get, but I think he's genuinely a good dude and a good husband and trying to save his marriage. I don't agree with Bonnie's mother about him not having any emotional intelligence. He was very honest with Bonnie about the fact that he's tried to talk to her and she won't respond to him, and he was obviously hurt and showing her that he was hurting when they were arguing and he told her about what his experience with divorce taught him about marriage. And they end the episode in a stronger place than they started. I feel like Bonnie is going to confide the truth in him. And it will just be one more secret someone else knows that involves Madeleine that Ed doesn't know. Speaking of-

Then we have Madeleine and Ed, who on the surface appear to be the most stable, but that's only because Madeleine doesn't confide or express anything to him really, neither joy nor discontent. He completely had a point when he wondered what "us" even was with them. And I think he was less hurt by the revelation that Madeleine cheated- I always thought that he figured it out at trivia night and made the conscious decision to let it lie- than by the fact that she told Abigail, someone he has raised and loved as his stepdaughter since she was a little girl. And that is entirely unacceptable and humiliating. And while I agree with Madeleine that he didn't really have a right to know about Jane being raped and Perry being Ziggy's father, if Madeleine is going to blab about it on the phone to her friends, in their house when their daughter is at home, in such detail that Chloe can overhear her talking and know the truth, then that does change things. That's his daughter. He has a right to not be blindsided by finding out his daughter has revealed to her friends that they secretly have the same dad, that he couldn't even tell her she shouldn't do something like that because he didn't know himself. He was perfectly right to worry that Chloe knew about Madeline cheating too, since everyone besides him appears to know all of Madeleine's secrets. It's one thing to not treat him like a husband and partner and confide in him, it's another to not respect him as a father and an equal as a parent. But even though I loved the scene and Madeleine seriously needed that reality check/wake-up call, I hope he doesn't leave entirely because I love Adam Scott and don't want him to go, and because I really really want them to have scenes with the therapist, who after all, is a marriage counselor. They are in dire need. 

Finally there's Renata and Gordon, who are fucking hilarious together. He broke the law and lost all her money and is going to destroy her reputation, which is as unforgivable and divorceable a series of offenses as I have ever seen, but she's gonna go down to the county lock up and commiserate with him about it being bullshit that you go to prison for securities fraud, she's gonna attend his plea hearing and post bond, she'll scream at him about it in the car and kick him out on the side of the highway, but ultimately she'll turn around and pick him back up rather than abandon him there. I couldn't decide what his expression was when he looked at her after he got back into the car, like this mixture of disbelieving exasperation with her Extra antics but ultimately he does love her and they appear more solid to me so far than the other couples. 

The moment where Mary Louise revealed that the twins told her they have a brother was so heart stopping and unexpected and so so good. Kids know everything. 

[JennyMominFL]

8 hours ago, BeatrixK said:

II do NOT expect this show to turn on my water works, but damn if that scene with Ziggy meeting his demon-spawn half brothers didn't do just that.  The kid who plays Ziggy is outstanding!

You mean Young Sheldon?

[ElectricBoogaloo]

32 minutes ago, Plums said:

The moment where Mary Louise revealed that the twins told her they have a brother was so heart stopping and unexpected and so so good. Kids know everything. 

I was just discussing this with my sisters and cousins last week (as it applies to our various family members, not specifically this show). It just reinforces what I already knew: parents, no matter how discreet you think you are being or how good you think you are at hiding things, YOUR KIDS KNOW so stop treating them like they’re blind, deaf, and stupid. It’s insulting to them. 

One thing I liked this week was when Chloe asked if Ed was mad at her and Madeline said no but that when you love each other, you can be mad at each other. To me, that’s a much healthier attitude to teach your kids about their parents and love and relationships in general than Celeste pretending that Perry was a saint. Kids need to learn that in a relationship, things aren’t always perfect and that it’s okay and normal to disagree or get mad at each other. The perfection myth is not something you should teach your kids to aspire to because it just sets them up for failure and disappointment (or a lifetime of denial/hiding the truth of what your relationships are really like).

[Chaos Theory]

1 hour ago, Plums said:

As much as I'm genuinely enjoying this, it is so extremely hard to get past the idea that the lie that is the central premise for this season's conflict makes no dramatic sense at all because Bonnie pushing Perry in that circumstance was completely justifiable, and it's not even up for debate.

But it is debatable.   Mary Louise debated it.   She made a very real comment about Perry dying on the day Celeste was planning to leave him,    As an audience we all saw what happened but a bunch of ladies push a man down some stairs could be read as premeditated by the right person.  

[DoubleUTeeEff]

5 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Sometimes you have to accept the fact that a particular career choice has a shelf life. Athletes do.

I think this true only to an extent. For example, a 60 year old isn't going to be cast for a character who is meant to be a 22 year old fresh out of college. But there is also a double standard for men and women. Men will often be cast in action movies well into old age and the leading ladies who are cast with them are often much much younger than they are. Sean Connery and Harrison Ford spring to mind. It's not like old people can't act or aren't needed to fill certain roles, it's just that younger women are often chosen over more age appropriate women but the same can't be said of men, at least not to the same extent. 

[Crs97]

I am reminded of Clint Eastwood saying he had to fight to cast Meryl in Bridges because the studio thought that since she was in her 40’s, she was too old to play the part of a housewife in her 40’s.

[sunshine23]

Now THIS is the show I loved last season. The choppy camera work was gone and I was able to focus on the storyline. Since Perry and Bonnie's mom's have shown up, I'm wondering if we will see Madeline, Celeste, Renatta or Jane's moms, even in flashback. It would be interesting to see how the women's relationships with their mothers impacted their adult lives.

Keep thinking "I hate that hair." whenever Jane is on screen. 

I understand why the voices are so soft during the therapist scenes but its annoying to keep raising and lowering the volume.

[CarpeFelis]

4 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

In the flashback where Perry asked Celeste about her family, he told her he had a brother who died when he was 5.

Since Perry was such a textbook abuser, asking about her family was his way of screening her as a potential victim. It’s a lot easier to isolate and abuse someone who doesn’t have family members and a support system. If she had said she had three older brothers who used to follow her in their cars when she dated in high school or a gaggle of sisters who were constantly at her house, he would have dropped her like a hot potato because it would have been a lot harder to keep the abuse a secret.

I could see where this conversation probably seemed very romantic to Celeste at the time. In retrospect, knowing what we know, it was creepy AF when he said “I’d have you all to myself”.

And my first thought was that Perry himself killed the brother (who perhaps was a baby or toddler, though I also immediately wondered if he was a twin since they run in families). That way he’d have his parents all to himself.

[lucindabelle]

Nicole Kidman will be 52 this week and I think she looks AMAZING. I don't think she looks like wax or her eyes look weird. her jawline is perfect, and unless she's had a facelift (which, no), that's just genetics.

I'll be 55 this summer and here to tell you at 52 I did not look that great. MOST women don't. She's totally plausible as a mom of elementary school aged kids.

It makes sense to me that she is getting nostalgic for Perry and forgetting the horror. He's been her world for a long time. But seeing him just punching her in the stomach was horrifying.

"He salted you." Aw.

[izabella]

16 hours ago, Irlandesa said:

I actually wonder if the therapist's advice for her to get out there and test the waters is bad advice.  If she's still in this mindset, it might make her vulnerable to other abusers out there. 

I thought it was TERRIBLE advice!  I couldn't believe she even suggested it.  Celeste is nowhere near emotionally healthy enough to date.  She would attract another abuser in an instant.

Celeste needs to kick Mary Louise out of that house.  She sees and hears everything, and will learn enough to take those kids away from her.  "I saw Celeste physically fighting with and hitting her child.  She screamed at him and knocked him down on the deck - she's out of control!  The boys are violent with each other and learned it from her!  She also told me she was violent with my dead son, who happens to have "slipped" down some stairs to his death when Celeste was standing right next to him."

Count me among those who hates when actors get stuff done to their face.  They can't emote much after that, so it ruins the reason they were hired - acting!  I would say Nicole needs to lay off the procedures.  Frankly, she's well on her way to ruining her face. 

And I don't understand why Jane's hairstyle gets so much criticism but Celeste's does not.  It's the exact same hairstyle, long with with bangs across the front.

Edited June 17, 2019 by izabella

[QuinnM]

So Bonnie and her mother both have visions?  Someone is drowning?  Madeline saved Max from drowning once.  So is this a foreshadowing?

And absolutely think Celeste is acting out with dangerous hook ups.  

Just like last year there is a lot of data but no information ... yet.

[kieyra]

I have zero, ZERO problem with female actresses getting work done in order to protect their earning potential. I feel badly when it doesn’t go well for some, but I don’t focus on it. 

Meanwhile, I guess I’m watching this show wrong. While everyone else is wondering why characters aren’t in therapy, or aren’t in enough therapy, I’d like to know why the fuck Celeste wasn’t on the phone with a criminal defense attorney the second her MiL said she was going to the police with all that information about her motives for wanting Perry dead.

Hell, didn’t she used to be some kind of lawyer herself?

Edited June 18, 2019 by kieyra

[txhorns79]

11 hours ago, teddysmom said:

What about the comment "what did you do THIS TIME". 

Yeah, that was the sign that Bonnie's mom is not there to help.  Though maybe Nathan is smarter than he is given credit for, and used Bonnie's mother as a way to drive Bonnie back to him. 

1 hour ago, izabella said:

Celeste needs to kick Mary Louise out of that house.  She sees and hears everything, and will learn enough to take those kids away from her.  "I saw Celeste physically fighting with and hitting her child.  She screamed at him and knocked him down on the deck - she's out of control!  The boys are violent with each other and learned it from her!  She also told me she was violent with my dead son, who happens to have "slipped" down some stairs to his death when Celeste was standing right next to him."

I couldn't believe that Celeste was telling Mary Louise all this stuff, when you just know that Mary Louise will use it later as ammunition.  The moment that Mary Louise started pulling her "well, why didn't you go to the police," and completely dismissing the idea that Perry could have sexually assaulted someone, she needed to be gone. 

[CarpeFelis]

1 hour ago, izabella said:

Celeste needs to kick Mary Louise out of that house.  She sees and hears everything, and will learn enough to take those kids away from her.  "I saw Celeste physically fighting with and hitting her child.  She screamed at him and knocked him down on the deck - she's out of control!  The boys are violent with each other and learned it from her!  She also told me she was violent with my dead son, who happens to have "slipped" down some stairs to his death when Celeste was standing right next to him."

And I don't understand why Jane's hairstyle gets so much criticism but Celeste's does not.  It's the exact same hairstyle, long with with bangs across the front.

I was horrified when Celeste knocked her son down, though it wasn’t clear whether she intended to or was just trying to break up the fight. It did make it look like she, just as much as the boys, picked up Perry’s violent tendency. And it was extremely unfortunate to have Mary Louise right there taking it all in. Celeste telling the boys not to “be like HIM” probably didn’t even register with Mary Louise, though, since she has Perry up on such a pedestal.

The hairstyles are similar, but the effect is different. Celeste’s looks great while Jane’s looks harsh because Jane’s hair is so much darker (and the color really doesn’t flatter her) and her bangs seem heavier and blunt-cut, as well as usually uncombed. In terms of the characters, I’d guess the intent is to show that Celeste has a very expensive hairdresser while Jane probably hacked off her own bangs or went to Supercuts.

[walnutqueen]

1 hour ago, izabella said:

And I don't understand why Jane's hairstyle gets so much criticism but Celeste's does not.  It's the exact same hairstyle, long with with bangs across the front.

Jane's bangs are too short and severe.  Celeste's are long and softer.

[wovenloaf]

Was the thing about Bonnie having experience with abuse previously in her life ever an actual thing the show told us in a concrete way?  I don't remember that.  I do remember that a lot of people here hypothesized that was the case from the way she was looking at Perry and Celeste in the last episode of least season.  But I don't recall that being confirmed in the show, so I don't see the inconsistency about her background in that regard. 

(I haven't read the book though, so only going off what I remember from last season.)

[jeansheridan]

11 hours ago, Eyes High said:

I'm guessing the omission of the actual explanation was done to protect Ziggy's actor. I don't know exactly how old I was when I figured out was rape was, but I know it was older than that.

Yikes. Very good point. Although I guess they could have cut it in a way to keep the child actor out of the frame. Like they do during scenes with molestation or extreme violence.

I really like how Jane talks with him in general.