S08.E06: The Iron Throne

[SeanC]

3 minutes ago, stagmania said:

So we could get the fan service ending for Sansa. I laughed at the scene of her declaring her independence - while everyone else had to swear fealty to her brother. No way in hell does Yara Greyjoy just sit there and take that.

Yara also seems to have forgotten that she cut a deal to make the Iron Islands independent back in Season 6.

[Couver]

Why not start the end of hereditary rule by you know...not electing nobles to the council at all? How on earth would anyone in KL be ok with Tyrion? He was never loved by the people and after enduring his cruel father, psychotic nephew, and tyrant sister no sane common person would be ok with him in any position of power.

Again I think this could have been written as acceptable if they did a better job of turning Dany into a villain. Particularly on the back of the 'but think of the common people' nonsense that Tyrion and Varys were going on and on about.

[HeySandyStrange]

3 minutes ago, stagmania said:

So we could get the fan service ending for Sansa. I laughed at the scene of her declaring her independence - while everyone else had to swear fealty to her brother. No way in hell does Yara Greyjoy just sit there and take that.

Considering that the Iron Islands and also Done have always been culturally divergent from the other Kingdoms of Westeros, and have never had an easy relationship with the Iron Throne, yeah, it's a stretch to believe they won't be pissed that the King's sister got to so easily break away from the other six kingdoms. Oh well, that some poorly explained writing for you.

[mac123x]

How long will Bran live?  The previous 3ER lived for hundreds of years (or thousands).  It's not the same in the book, where he's less than 200, but the show didn't follow that

[rollacoaster]

So, Drogon be like: Fuck this pokey chair, and fuck this cold-ass climate. Come on, Mom. We goin' home. 

[maystone]

I'm OK with it. Drogon broke my heart more than anyone else on the show. But then Jon reuniting with Ghost mended it again. Apparently I'm primarily here for the CGI animals.

Seriously, I'm good with how all of it turned out, but I did notice how D&D just skipped right by the moment when Grey Worm discovered that Jon had killed Dany. How on earth did GW not skewer Jon on the spot? I mean I'm glad that he didn't, but still.

Many beautiful shots in this one. Drogon rising from the ashes was spectacular.

Sam became a Maester, right? My friends, we were here for the unveiling of the Reform Maester denomination: Sam got to marry and have a child. Good for him.

Glad that Jon decided to head north with the Wildings. I like that future for him. Thrilled for Arya heading off to explore on her very own Stark Ship. I'm surprised that Sansa was made queen; I took her stance about the northmen not bending a knee ever again to mean she was aiming more for an autonomous collective, but hey - everyone seemed keen on the coronation, and she did look lovely in that crown.

Glad to see all my faves now a part of the Small Council. It's where I'd choose to hang out if I could. Am I right in thinking that Brienne is now Captain of the King's Guard? I'm OK, too, with Jaime getting the hero treatment from her in his biography, because that's what he was to her.

Honestly, I'd be happy to see the further adventures of Jon and Arya and the world rebuilding of the Six Kingdoms. I assume I'm in the minority on that one :)

[AnnaMayWong]

I’m inferring that  NONE  of the `Stark’ offspring will have natural progeny.

*(my puir wee  J♥️N🙁.  Deserved  MUCH  better...)

[Scarlett45]

Just now, BookElitist said:

I’m inferring that  NONE  of the `Stark’ offspring will have natural progeny.

*(my puir wee  J♥️N🙁.  Deserved  MUCH  better...)

I don’t know. Sansa May decide to marry and have her husband take the Stark name. Arya may decide to have a child and live a nomadic life with him/her. 

[rollacoaster]

43 minutes ago, Oscirus said:

49 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

It was also dumb that Jon being a Targaryen meant nothing in the end. 

Basically the only thing it meant was that  Sansa was able to use that information to cause turmoil in Danys inner circle. It literally did nothing else.  He didn't even come close to the throne

It kept his ass from being Dracarysed. 

[YaddaYadda]

So the north secedes, gets its own queen, and a Stark gets to be king of the rest of the realm. That makes total sense.

How utterly stupid.

Edited May 20, 2019 by YaddaYadda

[Sakura12]

26 minutes ago, SeanC said:

Yara also seems to have forgotten that she cut a deal to make the Iron Islands independent back in Season 6.

I wanted Yara to say that Dany granted the Iron Islands their freedom, just to see Sansa's reaction. And to see if Bran would've granted that to someone that is not his sister. In the end the Starks are ruling the 7 Kingdoms. 

Edited May 20, 2019 by Sakura12

[Oscirus]

1 minute ago, rollacoaster said:

It kept his ass from being Dracarysed. 

Still changed nothing other than Jon surviving.

Also, who was watching over Winterfell? Did both Arya and Sansa have to be at that meeting?

[HeySandyStrange]

5 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I don’t know. Sansa May decide to marry and have her husband take the Stark name. Arya may decide to have a child and live a nomadic life with him/her. 

I think it is very likely that, at some point, Sansa will marry and have children. Or just have children that she will find a way to legitimize them as Starks. I don't see her wanting the Stark line to die out.

[Dev F]

52 minutes ago, AuxArx said:

Where were Jon and all those people headed at the end?

I figured it was a ranging party to lead the wildling refugees back to their homes, now that the White Walker threat was over. I don't know why they hadn't started doing that earlier, since the Night King died long enough ago to march armies down the continent to King's Landing, but I assume the point was to bookend the first scene of the series: the White Walkers turning Free Folk children into zombies and driving the Night's Watch patrol out of the forest north of the Wall, vs. Free Folk children returning to the forest north of the Wall under the Night's Watch's protection.

Anyway, I was m'eh on the episode as a whole. I didn't mind the basic contours of the ending as much as some folks seem to, though it was executed with the same lack of care and subtlety that has characterized the show's last few seasons.

Here's the thing that really baffled me: Presumably "Bran ends up on the Iron Throne" is one of the main plot points GRRM shared with the writers so they'd know what they were writing toward. So knowing how centrally important the character would turn out to be, the showrunners chose to hide him offscreen for an entire season? And then in the last few seasons,  when they should've been laying the groundwork for the conclusion, they turn him into an off-putting weirdo who spouts exposition in a robot voice? Why on earth would they do that?

[freebie]

Well. That's that. Much to process, but I think it all started to go downhill for me when the staircase Tyrion needed to access the Tomb of the Greatest Love of All was completely intact and totally safe.

What else? Bran as king. I confess I let out an uncomfortable little laugh when Tyrion threw his lot behind Bran. It was like being at a dinner party and listening to an acquaintance wonder why the system of government in The Handmaid's Tale wouldn't work in the U.S. And then you realize they're serious. 

When Bran the Smugly All-Knowing, First of His Name, responded that he wouldn't have bothered to come south otherwise, I almost threw something at the TV. My beer was nearest, so I opted for a long swig instead. 

Finally, the Small Council. Seven Hells! I don't know what was worse:  that TPTB utterly failed to think about who could fill the three empty spots or that His Grace, Bran the Couldn't Be Bothered, just left the Bro Council (props to whoever upthread coined that phrase) to their own devices.

I did like Arya saying toodles and bugging out with her direwolf-emblazoned sailing ship, and Jon meeting back up with Tormund and most especially Ghost. Also, Sansa's hair, crown, and dress were very pretty. I hope Jon leaving Castle Black is a permanent thing. If anyone's watch has ended, it's his. 

Edited May 20, 2019 by freebie

[ShellsandCheese]

I’m sorry but it’s a sad state of affairs when the most interesting and sad moment if your finale is the reaction of a dragon finding out his mom is dead. Poor Drogon. They better leave him alone, why does Bran need to find him. 

[Scarlett45]

2 minutes ago, Dev F said:

I figured it was a ranging party to lead the wildling refugees back to their homes, now that the White Walker threat was over. I don't know why they hadn't started doing that earlier, since the Night King died long enough ago to march armies down the continent to King's Landing, but I assume the point was to bookend the first scene of the series: the White Walkers turning Free Folk children into zombies and driving the Night's Watch patrol out of the forest north of the Wall, vs. Free Folk children returning to the forest north of the Wall under the Night's Watch's protection.

Tormund said he was waiting for the winter storms to pass before he would lead his people home. Did you notice the green sprout? Spring may be coming early. 

[Tippi]

After episodes 3-5, my gut feeling was dissatisfaction with the writing, characterization, and plotting.  I thought episode 6 would go full on Dexter mode, but for me, it ended up being largely satisfying.  I am still processing the scenes leading up to Dany's assassination.  The set design for the ruined throne room was brilliant and such a call back to her visions in season 2.  The grayness of it all is so haunting to me, with the ashes of her actions covering all.  Her delusions in what she saw herself to be and how she would continue to burn innocents and call it mercy--I found it so chilling.  Jon's agonizing struggle with his loyalty and his duty and his love for his queen was very well done.  It was fitting that Drogon would destroy the throne that destroyed his mother.

Emilia Clarke did an excellent job in this episode.  As I said, this will haunt me for a while.

[Sakura12]

7 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

I’m sorry but it’s a sad state of affairs when the most interesting and sad moment if your finale is the reaction of a dragon finding out his mom is dead. Poor Drogon. They better leave him alone, why does Bran need to find him. 

Probably so he doesn't come back looking for revenge over his mother's death. 

[Glaze Crazy]

I liked it for what is was. To me it was a lot more epilogue and potential for this fictional world going forward vs. continuation of the story.

Sad and melancholy for most of the characters, no real victor or champion, just the business of picking up the pieces of what's left.

Liked Brienne filling out Jaime's page in the Knights book. Like most cultural stories it's carefully worded to give him the hero's edit for future generations. Yay for Ser Podrick!

Tyrion once again landing on his feet after making yet more bad moves while overthinking the whole game. I want to believe the character is good at heart but I continue to wonder if he's meant to be more Littlefinger than Varys in intent, if the books ever get finished.

Poor Jon, it all fell on his shoulders to make it right by offing Mad Queen Danerys after last week's rampage. I think it's always fallen to him over the course of the series to take the moral route when others he's responsible for go astray from the straight path. I think this one finally broke him completely, even more than a knife to the heart. Glad he got to go back to Ghost after all. I see his going back to the north and forsaking his Targaryan blood (that he had no knowledge or conscious connection to, as of a few months ago) like a parallel to Maester Aemon's choices back when he was the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. Who needs all that bother anyway?

Glad to see Drogon just melt the Iron Throne down so no one ever sits on it again. I guess that's fitting in the sense that it was created by the Targaryans in the first place. No need to keep that symbol around anymore since, if Jon doesn't have kids in the future, the Targaryan line is finished.

Glad that Arya is off on further adventures West of Westeros. I hope she comes back eventually to add to the world of what their maps currently show.

They left a lot of possibilities on the table for the future of this world. A bunch of trained Unsullied and Dothraki hordes who just lost their chosen queen and are now probably still pissed off and headed back to their homes in the east. I can see that coming back to bite Westeros some time in the future. Where did Drogon go and what happened to Danerys' body? Could she get deposited with a Lord of Light/red woman in the east who could bring her back to life so she can rain fiery destruction at a later date?

[Hiacios]

This was the most boring unoriginal ending I have ever seen. Fuck you D&D!

[mac123x]

I just realized that Pod is perfect for the Kingsguard.  Not just because he's a good knight, but also they don't get married.  Podrick the Roddick needs to share his skillz.

16 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

Tormund said he was waiting for the winter storms to pass before he would lead his people home. Did you notice the green sprout? Spring may be coming early. 

Oh, I wondered why there was an unmotivated camera move showing that plant.

[rmontro]

So the moral of the story is:

Starks uber alles, I guess.  Bleh.

Dinklage is good, but Drogon was the best actor this episode.  Is he eligible for an Emmy?  Burning the Iron Throne, that is one smart dragon.  Hope he stays safe from Bran.

I guess it was arranged by the council that Jon could leave with the Wildlings and not have to stay with the Night Watch?  Or did Jon just desert?  

I'm not even going to talk about the way they turned Dany into the Emperor from Star Wars and killed her, because it makes me too damn angry.  What a waste of a good character.  Worst I've ever seen.

[Scaeva]

46 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

I’m sorry but it’s a sad state of affairs when the most interesting and sad moment if your finale is the reaction of a dragon finding out his mom is dead. Poor Drogon. They better leave him alone, why does Bran need to find him. 

To dracarys D&D's Star Wars script, if we're lucky.

[jeansheridan]

13 minutes ago, Glaze Crazy said:

Could she get deposited with a Lord of Light/red woman in the east who could bring her back to life so she can rain fiery destruction at a later date?

That is a very neat idea. Because I do like Martin's world if not his execution of the plot. I think other writers should get to play in his sandbox like they did with the Star Wars books. 

I am actually quite happy with the finale. It was somber and thoughtful. The people I wanted to live made it through (including Drogon).

I liked the small council scene because it returned the world to the mundane again. The tedious and necessary task of rebuilding. And I don't think it was some bro council at all. Daavos is a thoughtful man, Sam is about as liberal as anyone, Brienne will restore the Kingsguard's honor, and Bronn gets things done. And Tyrion finally has a boss (Bran) he doesn't need to manage. Bran is a necessary figurehead because this current world needs a king or queen to function. 

And I don't think Jon is slow. But asking him to kill a person in cold blood, a person he loves and admires, a person who trusts him so much she has no guards in the room and doesn't even seem remotely wary of him, that is a big ask. 

I did wonder how he got his sword back in the end, but nitpicking is best left to Youttubers.

Also, Jon walking with his big cape will always look cool. Kit owned that costume, all forty plus pounds.

Sansa looked very Queen Elizabeth in that last scene. 

And kudos to Tobias for remembering how to play Edmure so well. That was an excellent thirty seconds. 

And yes, Kit with his dark hair and pale skin riding into a snowy forest is the stuff of fairy tales really. He is just that pretty. 

[CarpeFelis]

1 hour ago, maystone said:

Honestly, I'd be happy to see the further adventures of Jon and Arya and the world rebuilding of the Six Kingdoms. I assume I'm in the minority on that one 🙂

I’d be more interested in both of these than in any of the prequels.

[Miles]

I'm so sad for all the actors who act their heart out in this episode. There was still so much wrong.

Jon is like "I have to talk to Dany about executing the lanisters!... in 10 hours when all of them are dead". Seriously, greyworm got there first, after executing a bunch of people and Jon didn't even talk to Dany then.

Peter Dinklage acted like a champ when Tyrion found Cersei and Jamie, but I couldn't stop laughing because of this meme:

Danys speach made no sense. She must know that randomly killing a cities worth of innocent people isn't freeing them. D&D seem to be of the opinion that "well, she's crazy she doesn't have to make sense, doy!", but that's not how that works. Crazy people also make logical (to them) decisions, it's just that their data which they base these decisions on is bad.

Tyrions speech to Jon makes no sense either. First of all, Dany didn't kill al those evil people, she kept most of the slavers and royals alive. Second, even if she did kill all those evil people, it still wouldn't track with burning a city full of innocents. Also he mentions "did she sound like she was done with war?"... I'm 99% sure Jon doesn't speak valyrian, so how would he know what she did sound like?

Jon stabbing Dany is boring. Yes, it's within his character to do so, but we had so much out of character stuff, I would have taken mad king and queen at this point. At least that would have been fun. Also where was Arya for all this hours it took Jon to make up his mind? Do you really mean to tell me she wouldn't have snuck to wherever Dany was and stabbed her a few times. She is supernatural assasine girl, who hates people who kill innocents. She would have killed Dany so fast, the flash would look like a snail in comparison.

Bran as king is another boring option, but oh well. Also isn't he going to live forever as the three eyed raven? Good luck electing your next king, when the current one never croaks.

So Sansa can just declare "the north will be independant", get that granted and none of the other Lords says "yeeah, we too!". Suuuuuuure...

The nights watch makes no sense. The north isn't in the seven/six kingdoms anymore, so how/why would their prisoners be sent there? Also who would fund a now completely useless institution?

Arya's character still makes no sense. She recently learned the value of family but now she fucks off to the west, forever it seems. Seemingly for no reason. I mean how long can such an expedition take? Like five years max, I'd say. Unless she expects to die, but it didn't seem that way.

Overall a crappy end to a crappy season.

Edited May 20, 2019 by Miles

[bijoux]

2 hours ago, Scarlett45 said:

Jon killing Dany so early was a surprise. But BRAN as king?!! Wtf. Jon never wanted power so I think he will be happy and fulfilled at The Nightswatch. Sansa can still visit him sometimes. I’m fanwanking that Arya will have adventures and come home one day. 

I actually was hoping seeing their backs as they were walking indicated a 10 year time jump Tyrion alluded to. Arya coming home, Sansa getting ready to marry a lord she deemed appropriate, Jon back to Lord Commander, and maybe all of them coming back together again. I was so invested in the pack reuniting in the books that them all dispersing again felt very sad. 

2 hours ago, raven said:

Drogon out-acted Kit Harrington in the post-Dany's death scene.   Sorry, Kit, you're still pretty.

The episode looked gorgeous; the shot of Drogon shaking the snow off when Jon approaches looked so good; as did the shot of Drogon on top of the building.

It would have been excellent if the last scene was Bran, by himself, standing up from his chair and cackling wildly.

Drogon nudging Dany was the most gut wrenching moment of the episode. So very much Bambi. 😩

As for Bran, I actually half expected something of the sort after the way he was in the Dragonpit. 

2 hours ago, anamika said:

So the North get special privileges and independence over kingdoms like Dorne and the Iron Islands? fucking lol! But hey, D&D got to make Sansa queen like they always wanted. 

Yeah, I'm baffled someone didn't at least raise an arm and ask, what about us. Or Yara didn't pull out a knife to ask the same. 

2 hours ago, meligator said:

Bran being king is bullshit. Did the Dothraki really just say -okay, peace - and leave?

Even worse, it seemed like they were staying to me. Greyworm was the commander of Dany's entire armed forces (although I presumed he already had been, so I was surprised by her proclamation in the episode) but they were still on the shore when an Unsullied told Greyworm everyone was on board. So it seemed to me like they were staying. Good luck with that, Six Kingdoms. On the other hand, Naath has suffered enough. The island of butterflies did nothing to deserve a pillaging horde.

1 hour ago, maystone said:

Am I right in thinking that Brienne is now Captain of the King's Guard? I'm OK, too, with Jaime getting the hero treatment from her in his biography, because that's what he was to her.

You're right. The captain is the one who writes entries in the book. 

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

I wanted Yara to say that Dany granted the Iron Islands their freedom, just to see Sansa's reaction. And to see if Bran would've granted that to someone that is not his sister. In the end the Starks are ruling the 7 Kingdoms.  

Maybe even further. Jon's last scene could be seen as leading the Free Folk as a member of the Night's Watch, but I could also see him staying there with them and becoming the King Beyond the Wall,be he called that or not. 

[domina89]

1 hour ago, Glaze Crazy said:

Where did Drogon go and what happened to Danerys' body? Could she get deposited with a Lord of Light/red woman in the east who could bring her back to life so she can rain fiery destruction at a later date?

That's exactly what I was thinking and the only hopeful thing I can take away from this awful ending. The fact that Ghost lived and Jon let his glorious hair down were the highlights for me.

Can someone get started on the alternate ending  fan fiction now, please?

[bijoux]

I liked the two moments of levity this episode offered. One, Edmure being Edmure. I was ready to laugh as soon as he stood up and then chortled at as a survivor of two wars. Two, Tyrion not being in The Song of Ice and Fire at all. After all his talk about stories being so important*, it felt apt. I actually thought he would move his chair to the side of the table or come up with the udea of the round table to make the Council more equal, but he was just being pedantic. 

And speaking of things being more equal, the reactions to Sam's suggestion of an open election was depressing. 

*The point about Bran's story is very good actually, it just came too late and was too on the nose in its execution. I also conditionally liked how they reframed Dany's actions not as the result of her parentage, but her conquests and getting reaffirmation through them, so kind of buying her own press. Again, makes sense, but much too late and not developed enough. 

On another note, is Gendry completely fucked? Davos would be his best ally, but he's in King's Landing as the Master of Grammar (yeah, he is!) and Gendry is in Storm's End without a clue on how to be a lord. 

[anamika]

1 hour ago, freebie said:

When Bran the Smugly All-Knowing, First of His Name, responded that he wouldn't have bothered to come south otherwise, I almost threw something at the TV. My beer was nearest, so I opted for a long swig instead. 

Sansa: You should be  Lord of Winterfell

Bran: Nah, I am the 3ER now.

Tyrion: You should be King of the 7K

Bran: Ok, then!

Little did we know then that Bran was just aiming for a higher position than Lord of WF.

2 hours ago, SeanC said:

Yara also seems to have forgotten that she cut a deal to make the Iron Islands independent back in Season 6.

Benioff : Well, Sansa asks for independence while Yara kind of forgot that she had made a deal with Dany...

Edited May 20, 2019 by anamika

[Callista]

13 minutes ago, anamika said:

Sansa: You should be  Lord of Winterfell

Bran: Nah, I am the 3ER now.

Tyrion: You should be King of the 7K

Bran: Ok, then!

Little did we know then that Bran was just aiming for a higher position than Lord of WF.

Yeah, it's like Bran was secretly thinking: "I deserve much more than that frozen wasteland called the North, with all its fickle lords! My sister can have it though."

I was very happy that Brienne was indeed on the council, because the initial leaks only mentioned that men would be on it.

Happy that Pod survived, but a bit underwhelming to see him become Bran's official wheelchair-pusher.  Oh well, maybe he could always become the Master of Whisperers--he's literally in the best position to whisper into Bran's ear.

I wasn't happy that Arya and Yara's first and only conversation was antagonistic. 

And I don't understand why, during Arya and Jon's farewell, Arya was written as being determined never to go North again, not even to visit Jon.  Some explorers do get to come home from time to time, don't they?

Edited May 20, 2019 by Callista

[ShellsandCheese]

1 minute ago, Callista said:

I wasn't happy that Arya and Yara's first and only conversation was antagonistic.

It made no sense that Sansa, Arya, and Bran were all there to begin with. The North didn’t need all three of them to represent. 

[Oscirus]

2 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

It made no sense that Sansa, Arya, and Bran were all there to begin with. The North didn’t need all three of them to represent. 

Bran was there cuz he sensed that he had to be there. No idea why Arya was there  other than to make "a cool threat" to Yara. No need for Davos either really.

I do like that Bran said if you gonna make me rule this shit hole than you're gonna do all the work. While I go um look for that dragon.

[Miles]

12 minutes ago, Callista said:

I was very happy that Brienne was indeed on the council, because the initial leaks only mentioned that men would be on it.

She wasn't. She's the lord commander of the kings guard, not part of the small council.

[TobinAlbers]

1 minute ago, Callista said:

I wasn't happy that Arya and Yara's first and only conversation was antagonistic.

Yara looked pissed and ready to fight and yet I’d think she’d know that Arya is the freaking Night King slayer. Unless she wanted to go out dying with her last words being I tried to kill the Night King Slayer ala Euron. 

Come to think of it there is a scene missing of Yara being told/processing what Theon did and how he fought hard and saved Bran. If she does in fact  know that I could see that somewhat factoring into her grudgingly supporting Bran as King- her brother died protecting him.

I like Bran and his TER arc and definitely see him as a hero and yet when he answered Tyrion’s question with the whole ‘I wouldn’t have come all this way if I wasn’t going to take the crown’, Issac’s reading of that line was almost chilling as if hinting that the TER had motives/goals/ambitions forethought of his own that were not necessarily altruistic towards the people of Westeros. If this were any other series, I’d think this was set up for a whole new kind of problem for the six kingdoms and the possible the world with Bran the Broken being a whole new level of villain. 

[jeansheridan]

3 minutes ago, Callista said:

I wasn't happy that Arya and Yara's first and only conversation was antagonistic

But it did seem in character for both. Yara really did not get the screentime she deserved but the show was consistent about that. She was always such a sensible character at least. 

That grouping of ladies and Lord's kind of proved how little support Dany had beyond her own armies. Most of those people personally knew and admired Jon (excepting Yara and the new Prince of Dorne). They were all inclined to find a way to keep Jon alive. Grey Worm had no standing other than his army but what are they fighting for now? Justice?

I am glad Grey Worm proved to be a good leader and led his men to safety over the satisfaction of killing Jon.

I love that Daavos survived. He will keep Tyrion and Bronn in line. As will Brienne.

I also did like Brienne writing down Jaime's deeds. In the novels he is embarrassed by his lack of entries. But he also makes a point to write kindly about Selmy and another Kingsguard since it is a permanent record.

[bijoux]

3 minutes ago, Miles said:

She wasn't. She's the lord commander of the kings guard, not part of the small council.

Lord Commander of the Kingsguard traditionally is on the council. Barristan Selmy wasn't because he had served Aerys previously.

[Minneapple]

I fully believe this is GRRM's ending. Jon kills Dany and the Starks rise up. Bran as king, Sansa ruling the North, Arya exploring (just as Nymeria can't be contained, nor can Arya) and Jon living among the free folk, perhaps even becoming King Beyond the Wall (with Tormund as his consort of course).

D&D utterly mucked up everything in the leadup, but this ending is definitely A Time For Wolves.

[Callista]

2 minutes ago, Miles said:

She wasn't. She's the lord commander of the kings guard, not part of the small council.

That only confirms that she is a member of the council, because the Lord Commander of the King's Guard automatically becomes a member of the council.

[bijoux]

3 minutes ago, TobinAlbers said:

 If this were any other series, I’d think this was set up for a whole new kind of problem for the six kingdoms and the possible the world with Bran the Broken being a whole new level of villain. 

Who could Tyrion talk into killing him since Bran is all seeing? Kinda sccrewed the pooch there, Imp.

[Sentient Meat]

I don't get why Grey Worm had so much power just because of his personal vendetta against Cersei.  I understand that the Unsullied were crucial to saving Westeros, but is the message really that one can have a semi democracy as long as you kiss the military's ass, no matter if they are right or wrong?

It's interesting that Arya is heading West, Jon is heading North... was Drogon heading east with Dany's body?  Is Naath to the South?

Hopefully we'll find out in a few years.

[jeansheridan]

14 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

It made no sense that Sansa, Arya, and Bran were all there to begin with. The North didn’t need all three of them to represent. 

Arya is the Night King Killer, Sansa is the Lady of Winterfell. I feel like Daavos is Jon's lawyer. He even questioned his own right to a vote. I guess Brienne is there for Tarth? Also I figured security for Sansa. Robin has his steward with him (I liked that Robin looked at him before voting to get permission). We have Dorne, Stormlands, Riverlands, Vale, Winterfell, Pyke, but no Reach or Old Town? Maybe one of those guys was Old Town 

I wish they had been able to get Fat Lord Manderly into the show. I love him in the books so much.

[Colorful Mess]

Ygritte kills one dude and Jon leaves her ass.

Melisandre burns one girl and Jon banishes her.

Stannis executes one man by fire and Jon disobeys.

Jon commits treason against Stannis by switching babies. 

Daenerys kills THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of people and Jon's like "but I luvre her" and even then he still agonizes over whether it was the right thing to do. 

Dany burns an entire city and he's like... IDK TYRION. SHE'S MY QUEEN. She said she was going to take over more cities and Jon just stares like, a dumb cult member.

I can understand Jon going into self-imposed exile due to the guilt. But Jon expresses no guilt for his role in enabling Dany's war crimes. Only Tyrion acknowledged that Dany did wrong, out of his own volition. Jon was more concerned about killing a murderous tyrant than the thousands killed in front of him.

Why can Tyrion stick around? Tyrion told Jon to kill her - Greyworm doesn't care about that? And why is anyone listening to Greyworm anyway?

[AshleyN]

Dany's ending would have gone down a lot better if she'd been written the last few seasons the way she was in this episode. A reformer-turned-zealot who through her repeated successes comes to believe more and more in her own saviour narrative, to the point where she's convinced that any ends justify the means would have made a lot of sense for her, and I wish that idea had been explored more in the lead-up.

Overall, I was liked it, though it wasn't without its faults. I have much the same criticism as the last episode, in that it felt very GRRM-y, but in a way that the show hasn't set up clearly enough. If Martin's problem is that he's prone to tangents and drags things out too much, D&D are the opposite, in that they tend to be so focused on getting through the plot that things become rushed and characterization breaks down. And while I actually think their more focused approach has helped a lot at times, here it ended up feeling like they were scrambling to get back to the book's ending after diverging so much in previous seasons, and didn't want to devote the time that would have been necessary to make it feel more organic. The events of this episode alone could have easily taken up half a season.

Basically, this is a long-winded way of saying that I think a lot of the choices here make more sense in the context of the books than the show. And since I'm pretty convinced at this point that GRRM isn't finishing them, and thus this has to serve as my only ending for this story, I'm more or less satisfied.

2 hours ago, galaxygirl76 said:

So Jon died, was resurrected, found out who his parents are, all to go back where he started. Alrighty then.

It's also the place where he was happiest, and the place where he fit in more than any other, as opposed to in the south, where in the show at least he's always been written as uncomfortable and out of his depth. I actually thought Jon's ending (starting with him having to once again make the choice between duty and love, and once again choosing the greater good over his own desires) was probably the most fitting of anyone.

It probably helps that I've never believed he'd end up on the throne, so it was pretty much either this or death in my mind.

6 minutes ago, bijoux said:

And speaking of things being more equal, the reactions to Sam's suggestion of an open election was depressing. 

While I thought this moment itself was too on-the-nose, I actually liked how they approached the subject. Westeros at this point is nowhere near developed enough for a true democracy to be believable, but they're moving in the direction of it by moving away from the idea of heriditary leadership. Having a council of noblemen elect a leader (from their own of course, at this point) constitutes the first steps that will hopefully lead in the direction of democracy.

[AshleyN]

7 minutes ago, Sentient Meat said:

I don't get why Grey Worm had so much power just because of his personal vendetta against Cersei.  I understand that the Unsullied were crucial to saving Westeros, but is the message really that one can have a semi democracy as long as you kiss the military's ass, no matter if they are right or wrong?

It's interesting that Arya is heading West, Jon is heading North... was Drogon heading east with Dany's body?  Is Naath to the South?

Hopefully we'll find out in a few years.

Pretty sure Grey Worm had power because he commanded the army that was in control of the city.

[bijoux]

6 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

Arya is the Night King Killer, Sansa is the Lady of Winterfell. I feel like Daavos is Jon's lawyer. He even questioned his own right to a vote. I guess Brienne is there for Tarth? Also I figured security for Sansa. Robin has his steward with him (I liked that Robin looked at him before voting to get permission). We have Dorne, Stormlands, Riverlands, Vale, Winterfell, Pyke, but no Reach or Old Town? Maybe one of those guys was Old Town 

Davos was offering land in the Reach to Greyworm and the Unsullied. So I think the area was pretty much depleted. I'm not sure if Bronn was there as representative. One of the guys looked like him but maybe also not.

3 minutes ago, AshleyN said:

While I thought this moment itself was too on-the-nose, I actually liked how they approached the subject. Westeros at this point is nowhere near developed enough for a true democracy to be believable, but they're moving in the direction of it by moving away from the idea of heriditary leadership. Having a council of noblemen elect a leader (from their own of course, at this point) constitutes the first steps that will hopefully lead in the direction of democracy.

I wasn't trying to say it was the wrong choice at all. It was fitting, but I found it depressing anyhow exactly because they're nowhere near any semblance of democracy.

[RealityCreator]

I didn't think it was...terrible.  There were some moments I enjoyed (Jon smiled AND pet Ghost!  Tormund!).  I'm going to fanwank that Jon is going to live with the Free Folk north of the wall and find a woman and have as many babies as he wants, because he's Aegon Fing Targaryen and Grey Worm's feefees shouldn't determine Jon's fate.  

And whatever happened to the super secret yet super important fact that Jon is Aegon Fing Targaryen?  It was only used as an excuse to lead us to the shocking scene when Jon has to assassinate Dany?  There is no other reason for him being Aegon Targaryen in the story at all?  OK then.  I kept yelling at the TV every time Grey Worm whined that Jon should be punished:  He's Aegon Targaryen!   Then when I saw Sam was a member of the council and they were deciding who would be king, I thought certainly he was going to bring it up, but no.  Bizarre.

I like Sansa being Queen of the North.  I think it fits her character and her character arc well enough, but Arya not using her Faceless Man skills?  What was the freaking point of all that training?  To kill Frey way back in Season 4? (or whatever - long ago).  Bizarre.

I'll just think about Jon living as a free man with the Free Folk petting Ghost all day long.

[Chaser]

10 minutes ago, Colorful Mess said:

Ygritte kills one dude and Jon leaves her ass.

Melisandre burns one girl and Jon banishes her.

Stannis executes one man by fire and Jon disobeys.

Jon commits treason against Stannis by switching babies. 

Daenerys kills THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS of people and Jon's like "but I luvre her" and even then he still agonizes over whether it was the right thing to do. 

Dany burns an entire city and he's like... IDK TYRION. SHE'S MY QUEEN. She said she was going to take over more cities and Jon just stares like, a dumb cult member.

I can understand Jon going into self-imposed exile due to the guilt. But Jon expresses no guilt for his role in enabling Dany's war crimes. Only Tyrion acknowledged that Dany did wrong, out of his own volition. Jon was more concerned about killing a murderous tyrant than the thousands killed in front of him.

Why can Tyrion stick around? Tyrion told Jon to kill her - Greyworm doesn't care about that? And why is anyone listening to Greyworm anyway?

Jonerys was the worst thing to happen to Jon. 

[bijoux]

7 minutes ago, RealityCreator said:

Then when I saw Sam was a member of the council and they were deciding who would be king, I thought certainly he was going to bring it up, but no.  Bizarre.

This is an excellent point. Now that you bring it up, I'm not so much bothered by the point that Sam didn't raise the issue as I am by the lack of explanation for his inaction.

Edited May 20, 2019 by bijoux