S08.E05: The Bells

[JennyMominFL]

It seemed like 2 different characters were going in 2 different directions. Jamie was evolving throughout the series while Dany devolved..  I wanted Jaime to evolve, to get better, to grow and it seemed like he was. But he did what many of us do, we fall back to who we were before. To me, he is a sadder tale than dany. So many of us move towards redemption and fail. Its a very human story

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, JennyMominFL said:

Years ago Dany said she would burn cities to the ground to take the Iron throne.  And she did.

Yes, but the point is that doing so was completely, obviously, unnecessary. There has not been any indication that Dany is different from any other absolute monarch in this regard; as long as the monarch's hold on power is not threatened by obtaining greater wealth,  the monarch would prefer being richer to being poorer. In this case, the sound argument is that sparing the civilians of KL gives her more allies against those who will be more naturally inclined to resist her rule, the northeners. So we are left again with the essential idiocy of Dany. Too freakin' stupid to understand that destroying the physical and human capital of KL makes her kingdom considerably less wealthy, without strengthening her hold on power, and possibly weakening it.

Note to writers: making Dany a halfwit was not a sound strategy for writing an interesting finish to this story.

[GodsBeloved]

44 minutes ago, terrymct said:

Dany said she did it because she loves Jon, not because she put the Northerners needs above hers.  She did it for him, didn't know the Northerners from a hole in the ground.

Plus she aided in defeating a common enemy. The show established that the NK was an enemy of the world, not just the North.

I cringe at the idea that Daenarys came to save the North from their enemy LOL 

Also given that we now know that dragon fire does nothing to the NK, had Daenarys gone south to oust Cersei and let the North fight on their own and the North lost so would Daenarys.

I don't know if I missed it or they just didn't expound on it but did Arya/Bran know Valyrian steel would kill the NK? If they did, that bit of information would have been lost to Daenarys because the source of that knowledge was dead and she would have been left with no way to defeat the NK.

Edited May 13, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[sumiregusa]

This one got me in the giggle dick. Kinda says what I've been saying.

[Scaeva]

54 minutes ago, Mardo2044 said:

I knew when she killed the NK she would not be the one to kill Cersei.  I liked how this ended for Arya, being free of vengeance and I agree the Hound is one of the few she would listen to and respect.

Arya killing Cersei would be too much after having offed the Night King and most of the Freys. She's already teetering on the edge of Mary Sue territory. and that would surely push her over.

On that note I sincerely hope she's not the one who offs Dany. 

[Daisy]

1 hour ago, Constantinople said:

Something else the show hasn't established is that everyone loves Jon.

Some Northerners and Wildlings may love Jon, but that doesn't mean the rest of the Seven Kingdoms would support him.

Despite his alleged parentage -- and more than a few would be skeptical of if it given the nature of  that evidence and who provided it -- he'd still be seen as a Northerner.  I don't think most Southerns want a Northerner as King, particularly one who hangs out with Wildlings (it's kind of too bad that Randyll Tarly is dead, because I'd like to see him struggle with choosing between Dany the foreigner and Jon the Wildling Lover Who Abandoned the Night's Watch). I'm sure Dorne won't cotton to the living embodiment of Rhaegar Targaryen's disrespect for Princess Elia Martell of Dorne.

It's another example of the writers telling, not showing

the thing is - people love Jon - because he's fair etc. but he's not "instantly loved." and I think that's the point that's the inverse of Dany.  Dany gets people to "love" her because she comes in and scares the poo out of people. 

Jon - is kind and fair. 
at first the Crows hate him. he keeps his head down, he protects the innocent and weak by saying, people will have to deal with him, if they hurt Sam. He inspires respect by his hard worth ethic, and what not. 

at first the Wildlings hate him, but he earns their trust and respect by fighting for them, and their right to survive and fighting with them, and literally dying for them. 

the North loves him (Because he's "Ned's son" ) but again. he is prepared to do anything anything to protect the North, fight with them, not just sit on a chair and command his troups to die. He never does anything he's not prepared to die for himself. 

Jon's love comes through respect. not through fear or by having "things. he's just himself. and That's what Dany is afraid of.  She is loved... because of fear. and deat (and ironically, always has been).. Yah she has the ones who actually love and care for her (Grey Worm,Jorah (RIP), Seley (RIP), Missendei (RIP)) - but the actual people, give too poops about her army etc, they don't love her. and she doesn't show anything to people to even start. 

Jon has always shown himself. 

so yah maybepeople won't instantly fall in love with him because of what he is (Dorne) or being from the North  - but that's nothing that's phased Jon before - and through his actions he'd probably start to earn respect and their love for alawys doing the best for people.  

[Uncle JUICE]

2 minutes ago, GodsBeloved said:

Plus she aided in defeating a common enemy. The show established that the NK was an enemy of the world, not just the North.

But it didn't establish any urgency with regards to the Night King, and I hate to keep harping on it, but if they DON'T GO NORTH OF THE WALL WITH A DRAGON, as far as I can tell, the Night King's basically stuck looking up at the wall right now. All the tunnels had been sealed. 

[kittykat]

I know I'm (again) in a small minority but I like the Jaime/Cersei death.  It was symbolic that the Lannisters have fought and killed the last eight seasons to oppress the small folk and maintain the status quo and position of power. The Red Keep is the seat of that power and Jaime and Cersei died by literally being crushed by the rubble of the power they so worshipped.

I'm pretty sure once Jon killed the would be rapist his face read "I'm gonna have to take this shit job after all aren't I?"

[Bryce Lynch]

15 minutes ago, sumiregusa said:

This one got me in the giggle dick. Kinda says what I've been saying.

Perfect, except I thought his rating of negative 873 was a bit generous.  

[Daisy]

3 minutes ago, kittykat said:

I know I'm (again) in a small minority but I like the Jaime/Cersei death.  It was symbolic that the Lannisters have fought and killed the last eight seasons to oppress the small folk and maintain the status quo and position of power. The Red Keep is the seat of that power and Jaime and Cersei died by literally being crushed by the rubble of the power they so worshipped.

I'm pretty sure once Jon killed the would be rapist his face read "I'm gonna have to take this shit job after all aren't I?"

i'll be at your table - 
i really loved how they died. 
 

Cersei did everything in her power (and then some) to get the power of the throne she thought she deserved, and Jaime did everything he did to try to make Cersei happy. and that killed them. literally. and I know people are focused on how they died - but i also think it was Hubris. Cersei had a chance. more than one to surrender and not die that way. but again. shortsighted victories always led to harder longlasting disaster for her. this one - the permanent one resulting in her death. 

lol re: your Jon comment. 

[Detective005]

2 hours ago, kieyra said:

I legitimately have no idea how you're conflating people's complaints about poor characterization in a fantasy television show about magic and dragons with historical earth-based warfare or whatever. 

That said, real-life history is pretty cool, and you should definitely read more of it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hastings

I'm sorry, I'm simply saying that probably all the ancient kings would have done the same things if they had been suffering like Dany (julius cesar, alexander the great, Saladin etc etc) I am as displeased as you about the development of the character of dany, but i think this is an different argument

[proserpina65]

1 hour ago, Macbeth said:

Robert Baratheon's army raped and murdered citizens of King's Landing after the gates were opened and it was his last act before he won the throne.

Dany burned them to the ground. 

There are no surgical strikes.  Civilians are the victims whenever there is war.  There is no safe place to hide.  And any survivors, like Arya, are thinking of revenge.

When armies are used - people are not being liberated but are being conquered.

I liked this episode as it was a reflection of modern warfare.  I thought of bombs not dragon fire.  All of those ashes.  Like ashes from a nuclear bomb.  Like ashes from 9/11.  Like ashes from the wars in Iraq and Syria.

Except in modern warfare, generally once a city has surrendered, the fighting/bombing stops.

[Raachel2008]

1 hour ago, sarthaz said:

I guess it's a failure of writing if most of the people hate it,

Do they? Because I can only speak for me and the bunch of friends who watch with me.

[Detective005]

2 hours ago, tv-talk said:

That's not true. Just because there were massacres doesnt mean EVERY encounter ended in one. There were treaties and cease fires and all the rest of what we do today. The people in 1,000BC were really not different from people today.

 think so instead. Every encounter in which your enemies decide in the first place that they don't want to surrender, that kill their hostages and your strategic weapons (dragon) and refuse to ally with you against a common enemy

[proserpina65]

1 hour ago, Drogo said:

They didn't have dragons.  Burning someone alive is a pain in the ass without dragons. 

Melisandre and Stannis managed it.

1 hour ago, Uncle JUICE said:

It's kind of my point: they weren't burned at the stake. They were basically exploded. Their deaths were instant. Varys, for example, didn't scream or even writhe in anguish. He was basically instantly disintegrated. 

Didn't appear instant to me.  Quicker than being burnt at the stake, but not instant.

1 hour ago, Uncle JUICE said:

So effectively that the showrunners had "previously on" feature a patched together voice over of anything and anyone over the course of eight seasons that might have been remotely related to this idea? They somehow had the restraint to not feature the Mad King from Bran's visions screaming burn them all. Talk about "tell not show." 

Yeah, I agree, it was foreshadowed, that doesn't mean it was done so effectively. 

I didn't see the previously, but I thought it was effectively foreshadowed by events in other seasons.

[GodsBeloved]

22 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

But it didn't establish any urgency with regards to the Night King, and I hate to keep harping on it, but if they DON'T GO NORTH OF THE WALL WITH A DRAGON, as far as I can tell, the Night King's basically stuck looking up at the wall right now. All the tunnels had been sealed. 

I did think there was a level of urgency established even before going north of the wall. 

When Jon was at Winterfell, prior to going to Dragonstone, he insisted that the real fight was with the NK. He also insisted he needed to go to Dragonstone to get the dragon glass so they could fight the AOTD. He argued the urgent need to Cersei and this was before the NK and his new dragon breached the wall.

[terrymct]

39 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Yes, but the point is that doing so was completely, obviously, unnecessary.

This was sending a message to all the seven kingdoms and to folks overseas, as well.  Fear her and do not challenge her.   That's how she thinks she's bringing peace.

[Drogo]

1 minute ago, proserpina65 said:

Melisandre and Stannis managed it.

...because of their religion. 

Beheading is much easier. 

[proserpina65]

This actually says a lot of what I thought about the episode.  And I never agree with Amanda Marcotte.

https://www.salon.com/2019/05/13/game-of-thrones-dont-be-shocked-by-daenerys-her-kings-landing-turn-was-very-much-earned/

[Uncle JUICE]

1 minute ago, GodsBeloved said:

I did think there was a level of urgency established even before going north of the wall. 

When Jon was at Winterfell, prior to going to Dragonstone, he insisted that the real fight was with the NK. He also insisted he needed to go to Dragonstone to get the dragon glass so they could fight the AOTD. He argued the urgent need to Cersei and this was before the NK and his new dragon breached the wall.

Okay, but Jon SAYING it's urgent never explains why. THe conversation would have gone something like "They are coming for us, and we all better figure it the hell out together."

Cersei OR Dany: "I hear you, but can you explain how you believe they're getting past The Wall, which has held for 8000 years, countless winters? I'm glad to help you, I just also have to figure out the priority level we're talking about." 

Jon: "I LOOKED INTO HIS EYES!!!!!"

Cersei OR Dany: 🙄

[ulkis]

39 minutes ago, JennyMominFL said:

It seemed like 2 different characters were going in 2 different directions. Jamie was evolving throughout the series while Dany devolved..  I wanted Jaime to evolve, to get better, to grow and it seemed like he was. But he did what many of us do, we fall back to who we were before. To me, he is a sadder tale than dany. So many of us move towards redemption and fail. Its a very human story

My thing is with like mostly everything else it was very rushed. Cersei never finds about anything. I'm not even talking about Brienne but like anything, the battle, him being bff with Tyrion again while he was up there. For all she knows Jaime was hanging out in King's Landing the whole time. 

And for all the talk of fan service there really hasn't been that much. Jon has had pretty much no emotional reaction to the news of his parentage. They couldn't stick a two minute scene with Jon and Arya about how his mind's been blown with this news?

[Bannon]

8 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Melisandre and Stannis managed it.

Didn't appear instant to me.  Quicker than being burnt at the stake, but not instant.

I didn't see the previously, but I thought it was effectively foreshadowed by events in other seasons.

A dragon blast was sufficient to make massive stone walls crumble. Any respect for physics at all entails such energy instantly ceasing any human's consciousness.

[Scaeva]

1 hour ago, Cammi said:

I get it, but then why did Dany help the north at all, when she had three healthy dragons at the time? She did not have to help save anyone. She had the man power AND the dragons to sack King's Landing before Cersi had time to see what was coming. But she had a heart and conscience and she trusted in Jon to do the right thing. If she was truthfully THAT throne hungry, she could've had it faster and much easier. She chose the be helpful in fighting the dead and put the Northerner's needs above hers. People who she never met! 

While Dany might have been partly motivated by altruistic desires in going north with her army, it was probably not entirely without self-interest.  Had she not gone north in a timely manner it is quite likely the Night King wins and succeeds in destroying all of Westeros, since Cersei wasn't going to budge from her position and lend aid to anyone else, even if the north fell.

Daenerys needed to go north in order to preserve the kingdom she hoped to rule.

[kittykat]

9 minutes ago, Daisy said:

i'll be at your table - 
i really loved how they died. 
 

Cersei did everything in her power (and then some) to get the power of the throne she thought she deserved, and Jaime did everything he did to try to make Cersei happy. and that killed them. literally. and I know people are focused on how they died - but i also think it was Hubris. Cersei had a chance. more than one to surrender and not die that way. but again. shortsighted victories always led to harder longlasting disaster for her. this one - the permanent one resulting in her death. 

lol re: your Jon comment. 

We are a small but proud minority.

And as far as last episode goes the writing was questionable as it has been all season.  However the directing was outstanding (as all Miguel eps have been).  I wish we had two full seasons to get there but here we are.

There was still lots of great stuff.  Final scenes with Tyrion/Jaime's and Arya/Sandor, Qyburn becoming Mountain mush, Arya trying to get out.  It was always going to end with the small folk suffering.  No one wins.

[proserpina65]

2 minutes ago, Drogo said:

...because of their religion. 

Beheading is much easier. 

Definitely.

[terrymct]

21 minutes ago, Daisy said:

i'll be at your table - 
i really loved how they died. 
 

Cersei did everything in her power (and then some) to get the power of the throne she thought she deserved, and Jaime did everything he did to try to make Cersei happy. and that killed them. literally. and I know people are focused on how they died - but i also think it was Hubris. Cersei had a chance. more than one to surrender and not die that way. but again. shortsighted victories always led to harder longlasting disaster for her. this one - the permanent one resulting in her death. 

lol re: your Jon comment. 

I was hoping Jaime would kill Cersei and complete his redemption arc, but this is better in a range of ways.  Jaime had a chance at redemption, could have stayed at Winterfell, but couldn't or wouldn't get past his toxic and evil relationship with his twin sister.  He started out this series as an evil character, worked his way up to neutral verging on good, then chose to fall back to his old ways.  That's a form of tragedy.

[Constantinople]

Tyrion ought to know that so long as Cersei is alive, she's a threat and a possible focus of resistance. To quote from another HBO series (Rome)

Spoiler

Do you not see that Pompey may be broken like a Dacian catamite and still be dangerous? lf he is still living, he will be a standard around which our enemies will gather! As long as he can be propped on a horse, he's dangerous! - Ceasar to Lucius Vorenus

But for all of Tyrion's alleged concern for the people, ultimately he cares more if those people are named Lannister.

So sod off Tyrion for trying to arrange an escape for Cersei.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Constantinople
Originally used the quote function instead of the spoiler function

[proserpina65]

2 minutes ago, Bannon said:

A dragon blast was sufficient to make massive stone walls crumble. Any respect for physics at all entails such energy instantly ceasing any human's consciousness.

I ain't gonna argue with physics, lol.

[Cammi]

1 minute ago, Scaeva said:

While Dany might have been partly motivated by altruistic desires in going north with her army, it was probably not entirely without self-interest.  Had she not gone north in a timely manner it is quite likely the Night King wins and succeeds in destroying all of Westeros, since Cersei wasn't going to budge from her position and lend aid to anyone else, even if the north fell.

Daenerys needed to go north in order to preserve the kingdom she hoped to rule.

Only to burn down the kingdom ( a huge chunk of it) she intended to rule? Ok then.... 

[terrymct]

3 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

Okay, but Jon SAYING it's urgent never explains why. THe conversation would have gone something like "They are coming for us, and we all better figure it the hell out together."

Cersei OR Dany: "I hear you, but can you explain how you believe they're getting past The Wall, which has held for 8000 years, countless winters? I'm glad to help you, I just also have to figure out the priority level we're talking about." 

Jon: "I LOOKED INTO HIS EYES!!!!!"

Cersei OR Dany: 🙄

Rafts.  Lots and lots of rafts so the wights can paddle out around the ends of the wall.  😉

I agree with you, though.  There was no urgency until the wight dragon broke through the wall.  There was no indication that the NK or his wights could get past the magic of the wall or it as a physical barrier.

[Bryce Lynch]

4 minutes ago, Drogo said:

...because of their religion. 

Beheading is much easier. 

Try telling that to Ser Rodrick Cassel.  

[GiuliettaMasina]

The NK was a common enemy in the sense that he hated humanity equally, but after The Long Night, I’m not sure it’s certain that had Danny not fought with Jon she would have had to deal with the NK anyway. From what I saw, the NK and his army were invulnerable in battle, dragons or not. Even if he didn’t have a dragon he would have won; he had powers that rendered them ineffective as surveillance, transportation, and fire starters. Dany never stood a chance. Perhaps it’s true that her armies were a necessary distraction, but perhaps not. The elements needed to kill the NK were Arya, Bran, Theon, Melisandre, the Hound, Beric, and maybe Jon. Based on the what the show has told me about the characters’ talents, hearts, and minds, it seems quite possible they would have dispatched of the NK without Dany’s help. 

[Amarsir]

42 minutes ago, Bannon said:

Note to writers: making Dany a halfwit was not a sound strategy for writing an interesting finish to this story.

She's never been especially clever. Most of her arc has been "It's nice to have dragons". And she was overwhelmingly rewarded as a result. 

I think the destructiveness came out of nowhere and her "turn to the dark side" (so to speak) should have been set up better last episode. But I'm not bothered if she isn't the ultimate hero. On the contrary, seeing her waltz into a happy ending would have been boring.

[Clanstarling]

16 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

And what an insult to the work Nikolaj Coster Waldau and Gwendolyne Christie who acted the shit out of one of the most 'shipped romances on the show. We watched them meet. We watched them hate each other. We watched them slowly like each other. We watched that liking and trust turn to love. And we finally watched them consummate their relationship. After all that we're supposed to believe it meant nothing to Jaime and Brienne was just the side chick? Fuck that.

Just because he left doesn't mean she meant nothing. He can both care for and want to love Brianne, and be unable to break with the woman he's loved all his life, not to mention wanting to be with his unborn child. IMO, he wasn't good enough for Breinne, and he knew it.

16 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

What about the previous seasons made you think he wouldn't go back... Cersei's bullshit made Tommen kill himself... She cremated him and took over as queen and Jaime stuck around... Y'all think a roll in the proverbial hay with Brienne was gonna change that.. When she's carrying his baby??  Not liking how things turn out is not the same as character assassination or bad writing.. 

Thank you!

16 hours ago, Barbara Please said:

This is what bothered me the most with this final season. Arya trained for years and could assume other faces. Why couldn't she have taken a face of Urine Greyjoy, for example, and came up to Cersei and shanked her? It doesn't make sense that she didn't utilize this during this episode, or with the NK.  They completely rushed through this last season and missed some crucial details. 

She used a face to kill Walder Frey, the knife that was meant to kill Bran to kill the NK, Bran's enemy as the 3ER. I'm waiting for her to kill Jon's enemy with Needle, the blade he gave her. (If she still has it, I have lost track.) 

16 hours ago, MissLucas said:

Wasn't that the hand of the little girl we saw at the beginning clutching her wooden toy animal? D & D aren't above recycling emotional manipulation - even when it's not needed.

16 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Dany who freed slaves, stopped the Dothraki from raping women all the time, killed the masters that killed slave children, locked her dragons up when they accidentally killed a kid, told Yara to stop the Iron born from raping women. That woman suddenly decides to burn women and children alive. I know anti Dany people are going to always see the worst. The Dany is saw for 8 seasons would never have done that, unless the writers made her stupid and insane just because.

There are people who, like me, do not hate Dany, even cheered her on in earlier seasons,  but have noticed, while she was doing the undeniably great things, she also had a dark side that could be terrible if it went unchecked. Last night, she released the dragon.

[taanja]

WTF???

What was that?

Character assassination anyone? madness everywhere. I am still not sure what the hell I watched? That was ... a mess.

[QuinnM]

1 minute ago, Amarsir said:

think the destructiveness came out of nowhere and her "turn to the dark side" (so to speak) should have been set up better last episode. But I'm not bothered if she isn't the ultimate hero. On the contrary, seeing her waltz into a happy ending would have been boring.

When Tyrion tells her about the bells he is begging her not to destroy KL.  She is making a case for it.  Then Tyrion tells his Jaime when he's freeing him that the life of one dwarf is a good trade for thousands of innocent lives.  So Tyrion thought she was going to burn them all.

[kittykat]

3 minutes ago, terrymct said:

I was hoping Jaime would kill Cersei and complete his redemption arc, but this is better in a range of ways.  Jaime had a chance at redemption, could have stayed at Winterfell, but couldn't or wouldn't get past his toxic and evil relationship with his twin sister.  He started out this series as an evil character, worked his way up to neutral verging on good, then chose to fall back to his old ways.  That's a form of tragedy.

Indeed.  The season started off with high hopes of redemption on two characters: Theon and Jaime.  One was successful, one was not.  Not every one becomes a better person.

As far as going beyond the wall and prioritizing the dead over KL, that is sad case of "the writers said so.". It should have been reversed and KL should have been Dany's in S7 but D&D were never going to kill off Cersei before the end so that's why there was the reversal of priorities and dwindling of Dany's armies.

[paigow]

3 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Half the population feels more realistic... Half a MILLION people burned to death or slaughtered by her troops.

Dhanos Stormborn - Restorer Of Balance

[Hana Chan]

17 minutes ago, Scaeva said:

Daenerys needed to go north in order to preserve the kingdom she hoped to rule.

She also did it, clearly IMO, to gain the North's gratitude and loyalty. Gratitude she might have gotten, but loyalty? Not so much.

9 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

There are people who, like me, do not hate Dany, even cheered her on in earlier seasons,  but have noticed, while she was doing the undeniably great things, she also had a dark side that could be terrible if it went unchecked. Last night, she released the dragon.

Dany has a keen, if brutal, sense of justice. Executing slavers who killed children isn't something most people will argue with. Executing slave owners indiscriminately, regardless of whether they harmed their slave is a lot stickier. 

Killing soldiers during a battle? Nothing I would blink about. But killing soldier after they surrendered? That's a war crime. Not to mention deliberately burning civilians alive. 

It's been a long progression for Dany to reach this stage and the idea that someone who originally wanted to reclaim her family's throne in order to better the world but instead becomes one of its worst tyrants is going down as probably the saddest tragedy of this series.

[The Companion]

14 hours ago, RealReality said:

To me that whole Arya thing made no sense whatsoever and was absolutely ridiculous.  Arya has devoted years of her life to vengeance, and suddenly she is talked out of it by sandor?  That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever and it's absolutely nonsensical.  

It will be even more ridiculous if Arya kills someone else out of vengence after she let cersei go, because...the hound said so????

It was a nice sentiment, but it should have NEVER worked on someone like Arya.  She might as well have just become lady gendry or whatever at this point because she is no longer the Arya they have developed this entire series.

I disagree. We saw Arya make the conscious decision to return to her family, and we have seen her starting to recognize the value of having people around her. We saw her seek the comfort of another person before battle. Beyond that, she has been re-assessing her list for awhile now. She has run into and interacted with people on her list without killing them. Blind vengeance has started to become less of a goal for her. 

The Hound was really the only person who could have made the point. He spent his life in service of vengance, and it got him nowhere. I think this is a natural turning point for her. 

8 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

For many years, revenge was the fire inside Arya that kept her going. That need to avenge what had been done to her family was her only motivation for going on. She needed that. She saw nothing else but her list and how to get to everyone on it. The Hound understood that because he was the same way, and I think part of him liked her because he saw himself in her, that thirst to hurt the people who hurt you, to wipe them off the face of the earth.

But when it was clear that the entire city was going up in flames, he saw that Arya didn't need to be the one to kill Cersei because she was clearly going to go down with that sinking ship. Even if it wasn't by Arya's own hand, Cersei would be dead, so there was no reason for her to run into a building that was going to come down. The Hound is older and he'd already lived a miserable life so he was ready to die in order to get his revenge, but he saw Arya for what she is: a girl. Not A Girl, but a girl. She is still so young with her whole life ahead of her, a family who loves her, and the money/titles/family privilege that will allow her to do whatever she wants (as opposed to living a hardscrabble life trying to earn enough money at a shit job to feed herself). Dying now would be a waste of all that, especially since it seemed inevitable that Cersei would die without any help from Arya.

I do wonder if Arya will have Inigo Montoya syndrome and not know what to do with herself now that she's out of the revenge business.

I agree. Maybe she will train young women in the art of sword fighting.

7 hours ago, kieyra said:

--Showrunners wanted us to see Arya realize that War is Hell. But Arya just fought in a gigantic battle for all life on the planet against hordes of screaming zombies and then knifed their leader. She's already seen plenty of death. She already knows that War is Hell. 

I find this week to be completely different than the combat she previously faced. In the Battle of Winterfell, she saw combatants die. She fought soldiers. She has seen plenty of death, but this was the death of civilians. Killing an opposing soldier is really different than killing children. 

3 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

Whoever rules after she’s brought down won’t be doing so from King’s Landing. Its a mass grave. It needs to be buried and markers placed to remember what happened there.

If it’s Jon (and I expect it will be) I expect the ending of the series to mirror its beginning... the King comes to Winterfell, only instead of it being to pull the Starks apart, it will coming home to unite them.

And really, who else is there? The Great Houses are gutted and what’s left of the characters we actually care about are almost entirely in Jon’s camp.

Dany and Greyworm are all that’s left of her camp. Jon, Arya, Sansa, Bran, Davos, Brienne and Pod, Tormund, Sam and Gilly, Tyrion and Bronn are all that’s left of the cast and every last one of them has reason to back Jon once Dany is deposed and many even have authority to back it up.

Sam Tarly has as much claim to the Reach as anyone (Cersei made the Tarly’s the new Lords of the Reach) and he loves Jon. Bronn wouldn’t care as long as he gets his castle.

Sansa’s the Lady of Winterfell and the one who floated Jon to Tyrion in the first place. Her cousin is Lord of the Vale and easily led. If Sansa’s uncle (or infant cousin) isn’t returned as Lord of the Riverlands then Sansa herself is the next in line. Sansa brings three of the Seven Kingdoms to Jon’s camp all by herself.

Dany may have legitimized him, but Gendry bonded with Jon in battle and would support someone who brought down the person who murdered virtually everyone in his home.

After betraying Varys and Dany proving Varys right, I expect Tyrion (now Lord of the Westerlands with the death of his older siblings) to be wracked with guilt and looking for some way to do right. Probably by backing Varys’ choice.

That leaves the Ironborn and the new rulers in Dorne as the only powers who wouldn’t be already in Jon’s camp and I don’t think they’d have too many objections.

Throw in Jon’s lesson in this episode... that it doesn’t matter if he wants the Throne or not. It HAS to be him; the one who absolutely hates the power, but loves the people; or THIS is what will keep happening... and you have the True King archetype in a nutshell.

The True King knows that being King isn’t about him or what he wants. It’s about his duty to the people. He is king not to impose his will, but to protect them and give them the ability to grow.

Jon, with Sansa (the lover), Arya (the warrior) and Bran (the magician) standing by him is the truest expression of the True King archetype. Throw in Davos as Hand, Sam as Grand Maester and Brienne as head of the Royal Guard and probably got as close to perfect leadership as a place like Westeros is ever going to see.

Technically, you have the set up for 4 of the major families to be populated by the original Stark kids. Tyrion and Sansa (Lannister), Arya and Gendry (Baratheon), John (Targareyan) and Bran (Stark). 

2 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

Which makes the creative decision of Dany from all people legitimizing the guy who has some sort of claim even more stupid. D&D really didn't give a fuck, did they? If they did, they could have written a scene where Jon asks Dany to legimitize Gendry, something like "he fought with us, he is one of us the good guys, being a bastard is the worst thing etc", she does it to test Jon while getting even more paranoid. 

Or not do it at all. Her entire plot was about "I'm the rightfully heir, everybody else isn't", legitimizing Gendry was just dumb.

This was a diplomatic decision. He would be grateful to her and therefore less likely to come after her. It was actually one of the few attempts at diplomacy I ever remember coming from her (rather than her advisors).

[Constantinople]

We don't know their names, but they're just as real as you and I - Varys
A sentiment somewhat undercut by focusing so much on Arya as the everywoman struggling to survive the destruction of King's Landing.
Her scenes after she departed Sandor went on far too long, and just how many times did she survive under a pile of rubble?

[Amarsir]

3 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

We don't know their names, but they're just as real as you and I - Varys
A sentiment somewhat undercut by focusing so much on Arya as the everywoman struggling to survive the destruction of King's Landing.
Her scenes after she departed Sandor went on far too long, and just how many times did she survive under a pile of rubble?

Yeah I can't understand why that went on so long. I like the idea of her realizing she has something to live for, and I can overlook the fact that she got there really late despite leaving first. (This of course being cleverly set up in seasons 3 & 4: Arya travels much slower when with The Hound.) But everything with her would have been established in 1 of the 5 scenes.

[Bannon]

27 minutes ago, Amarsir said:

She's never been especially clever. Most of her arc has been "It's nice to have dragons". And she was overwhelmingly rewarded as a result. 

I think the destructiveness came out of nowhere and her "turn to the dark side" (so to speak) should have been set up better last episode. But I'm not bothered if she isn't the ultimate hero. On the contrary, seeing her waltz into a happy ending would have been boring.

I'm happy with any ending which didn't entail the laziest habit of television writers, that of making major characters no more intelligent than my dog, in order to get the plot to go in the desired direction. They failed.

[Raachel2008]

28 minutes ago, GiuliettaMasina said:

Perhaps it’s true that her armies were a necessary distraction, but perhaps not. The elements needed to kill the NK were Arya, Bran, Theon, Melisandre, the Hound, Beric, and maybe Jon. Based on the what the show has told me about the characters’ talents, hearts, and minds, it seems quite possible they would have dispatched of the NK without Dany’s help. 

Nope, the element need to kill the NK was dragon glass. And everytime people say Dany and Jon did nothing in the BoW, I want to scream. Arya was almost killed several times, now imagine if all those walkers/whights the dragons killed weren't around. They all would have been dead.

[sistermagpie]

15 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

This didn't come from nowhere. If it had I wouldn't have been able to discuss the whole Shadow King aspect for weeks now and call up numerous references across the seasons hinting to this.

Just wanted to say these explanations have really been in my mind since reading them. They do totally fit the show.

13 hours ago, RealReality said:

They were buddies?  She sat with him for like 5 minutes before the battle with the dead and basically took off instead of spend more time with him.  In what universe does that make them good friends?  She willingly spend more time eating dead rabbit with cersei's soliders.

She went to see him before the battle with the NK, saved his life there and he saved hers. Her "I'm not spending my last night on earth with you two old shits" was completely affectionate.

13 hours ago, RealReality said:

And if Arya is all love, light and forgiveness now, she is useless and may as well become lady gendry.

She wasn't love, light and forgiveness. She just chose life over revenge. She'd started to value her own life instead of just being propelled by the thought of killing others.

10 hours ago, BooBear said:

In prior years of this show I might have assumed the fact that we didn't see anything going on with her while she was on the dragon until the bells rang could leave opening for some trick to be happening... such as Gray Worm and Dany knowing it was the signal to release wildfire.  But I have lost faith that this show hasn't just gotten lazy. It was unforgivable for the *battle* to have been so one sided without being able to see Dany and what was happening up there. 

That's only if the point was to make Dany the hero of everything which was never where she was going--if there was going to be some secret somebody knew about there's no reason it would be those two. They're not about that.

10 hours ago, BooBear said:

Personally I think Tyrion is straight up the reason for this. Had Dany attacked at the start of season 7 and might have simply taken out the red keep.  Everyone around Dany HAS betrayed her or died. She is right, Jon, Sansa, and Tyrion betrayed her.  For those saying it was Dany, I will remind you of the two year lengths that she went to not to do this... even asking for surrender last week only to have her best friend's head cut off. 

I think this is getting into her tyrant mindset, though. All she had to do to not do this was to not do it. Does her not getting what she wanted, whether or not Tyrion's advice kept her from that, really justification for what she's doing here? She even *had* gotten ostensibly what she wanted here. The city surrendered. But she wasn't getting the feeling she wanted and probably would have had that problem eventually regardless.

5 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

The human shields didn't work.  Dany took out the main gate, the Golden Company, the Iron Fleet, all the scorpions and many Lannister soldiers with Drogon, with precision strikes, little to no collateral damage. 

It was only after the battle was won that she started slaughtering innocents, against whom she had no beef.  Absurdly bad writing.  

But that specific part isn't bad writing, it's intentional. 

2 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I know I am in the minority but I am glad no one got to kill Cersei.  The show has always been too messy for such a clean ending.  

Plus I was a sucker for her reunion with Jamie.  Their scenes should never have worked.  But they did.

I gotta say, the two of them dying being crushed by the castle falling on them is pretty perfect. I can't think of a more perfect ending for them, although I think it would have worked better with a better lead up.

1 hour ago, Raachel2008 said:

Which is why what she did was stupid beyond measure. She doomed her ruling before it even started.

I agree with Chris above about this. In her mind this makes sense. She'll rule from a burned out shell of a city as a show to everyone what will happen if they cross her. It's fear.

Re: a comment above about Arya's faces tricks coming to nothing, I disagree. Arya's arc, imo, was one of the clearest and one that wasn't hurt by the speed up of the writing in the last season. The point of those faces is that the people who wear them are "no one." That's why they're a perfect symbol of that temple. That's what Arya tried to become to escape pain and fear. But she turned back and came back to herself. It was just only in this ep that she really recognized that she wanted to be a human being, Arya Stark, and not just a force for vengeance. She didn't need it anymore. The Hound's words made sense to her because she was already just running on autopilot, going for revenge because it's what kept her going before, back when she had nothing.

Re: Dany in the past, there's a lot of references to violence she caused but for me the most obvious signs of trouble were just her pleasure in all the scenes where people cheered for her and she obviously felt so powerful by it. Not surprising given the way she started out, constantly abused and scared. But the collection of all those names, the way they were almost an incantation to feel powerful etc. That was somebody who had an empty weak spot within that was going to be trouble. It's like the post says above about Jon being loved. He's not automatically loved. He's never made grand gestures like freeing all the slaves and being a savior. He just sticks with people and has basically good intentions toward them and eventually he wears them down because he really is just what he says he is.

This is exactly the type of thing Dany doesn't have as much experience with. Jon spent most of his life being rejected and plodding along anyway. Jon of course *did* have love that made all the difference. But he could have been Theon as well. (Theon worked through his feelings of inadequacy.)

[Amarsir]

1 minute ago, Bannon said:

I'm happy with any ending which didn't entail the laziest habit of television writers, that of making major characters no more intelligent than my dog, in order to get the plot to go in the desired direction. They failed.

"Because the plot says so" has been the major justification for most things on this show though. Lucky scorpion shots, teleporting fleets, everything Petyr Baelish did in seasons 4-7... Dany being dumb bothers me no more than Ramsay being impossibly smart and dismantling an army with 20 people. 

[becauseIsaidso]

17 hours ago, Andromeda said:

Dany acting like she has for the past 7 seasons.

Cersei getting her comeuppance in a better way. For years we've discussed who should kill her: Sansa, Arya, Jamie, Tyrion.... No one ever said "wall." Even better than an assassination would be her demise from political maneuvering (it is a game of thrones).

Jamie not running back to Cersei, but helping to take her down.

Tyrion being intelligent.

Varys not switching alliances on a dime and getting roasted for it.

This! A thousand times!

[VCRTracking]

Great thread. GRMM and D&D knew from the beginning that Dany was going to go this way but they didn't reckon how much she'd become a pop culture icon of female empowerment in the meantime:

And on that note:

Edited May 13, 2019 by VCRTracking

[GiuliettaMasina]

4 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

Nope, the element need to kill the NK was dragon glass. And everytime people say Dany and Jon did nothing in the BoW, I want to scream. Arya was almost killed several times, now imagine if all those walkers/whights the dragons killed weren't around. They all would have been dead.

Arya is a trained assassin with a bag full of faces; they needn't have had a battle at all. See: Arya running unseen past 50 white walkers to attack the NK. Why didn't she just do that the night before?

[Bannon]

7 minutes ago, Amarsir said:

"Because the plot says so" has been the major justification for most things on this show though. Lucky scorpion shots, teleporting fleets, everything Petyr Baelish did in seasons 4-7... Dany being dumb bothers me no more than Ramsay being impossibly smart and dismantling an army with 20 people. 

Most of that stuff bothered me as well. A successful raid with a small force on a poorly provisioned larger force, however, is far from unprecedented.