S08.E05: The Bells

[Pixiebomb]

How did I hope/ expect it to be different?

i thought when Cersei passed The Hound on the stairs Arya would be waiting at the bottom. I thought she might have to fight a mortally wounded Jaime and dispatch him only for Cersei to flee and get away. I thought that The Cleganes would fall but the Hound would BARELY survive and Arya would come upon him while pursuing Cersei. Her choice this time would be to save the Hound rather than abandon him to death. I thought that in the last scene with Arya after she just barely misses being BBQed like the rest on KL where they showed her profile for what seemed like 10 minutes, that when she finally turned her face to the camera she would be burnt just like the Hound. 

Bummer. 

[Bryce Lynch]

5 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

Revenge - driven by grief. Same with Grey Worm.

While I initially hated the lack of satisfaction I felt at Cersei's death, after some time thinking about it, I think it was actually poetic. She was born with Jaimie, and died with Jaimie, crushed by the weight of the Red Keep - their lives and "accomplishments" in ashes.

And the Hound's death is similarly poetic, he finally kills his brother by taking him into the depths of the thing that frightens Sandor the most - fire.

Now Urine - that was definitely fan service.

You're not the only one.

I think it's two-fold. One - Dany told him from the get-go that if he betrayed her, she'd burn him. And Two, she didn't love Varys, and his death was relatively uncomplicated since he had no relatives and/or armies to take revenge.

But, the "revenge" meant nothing to the people who actually wronged Dany (Cersei, Qyburn and The Mountain).  Between the 3 of them, they didn't give a single shit about anyone in the KL other than themselves.

Cersei got revenge, when she blew up the High Sparrow and tortured Septa Unella.  Also, when she poisoned Tyene and made Ellaria watch her die and decompose.  

Burning a bunch of innocent people who Cersei would have just as easily burned, if it served her purpose, is not revenge.  What it is, is some of the worst writing in history.  

[Ottis]

Rant mode on, by character:

Dany? Dany's arc was the *only* one that was consistent with the show's past seasons and that made sense. During her arc, she arrived at cities and said give up or die, she crucified slave traders in a misguided attempt to show "you reap what you sow," she sent away advisers who loved her, bristled and resented anyone who didn't agree with her, BBQ'd the Tarleys instead of used them strategically, was more concerned with Jon's claim on the throne than her incest, employed no strategy to attack the city at the end (basically it was the same strategy as last week, but this time, the scorpions missed - really?), and threatened to kill Tyrion, probably her most loyal adviser left.  I'm sure there are other examples I have forgotten. Add to that the mythology of her genetic family, which we heard about repeatedly, and how could she have done anything else? Dany's descent into madness is one of the handful of things that make perfect sense through the history of this show - if you aren't ignoring it because you proudly see her as something else.  Did she turn too fast, and too hard? Maybe. But with only a few episodes, that had to happen quickly, and you can fault the pacing but not that it happened.

Arya? Why in the world did they build up Arya as a Faceless Man, with years of training, and then never use it this season at the climax? It didn't even appear she used it when she attached the NK. She sure as heck didn't use it last night. What a waste. She should have used it to get into the keep, and put her in a position to either take down someone on her own (Qyburn?) or save The Hound.

The Hound and Mountain? There were pieces that were OK. That the brothers had a final showdown was one of them. But it was never clear through the series what the resurrected Mountain remembered from when he was alive, or if he even had any memories or thoughts of his own. Now, at the end, not only does he recognize his brother, he also remembers his hatred for him AND it's significant enough that he defies his masters? That's a stretch. I know that falling into fire was poetic and has a link to The Hound's past. It would have worked better if the show had him recognize that end before it happened, and doing it anyway. They went through a stone wall.

And BTW, Qyburns's death was ludicrous. I actually laughed. He was brushed aside by his creation, hits his head and dies. Pointless. They may as well have had a rock fall on his head. Far better and more poetic for Arya to have killed him, Wasn't he on her list?

Jaime and Cersei? What a pointless ending. I suppose it had the metaphorical meaning of their transgressions were buried with them. But neither one stood for anything at the end except they loved each other, sort of. A far better ending would have been Cersei appearing to have won a costly defense, and Jaime killing her - and his own child - essentially for Brienne and a better world. Jaime would die after showing he was a changed and worthy man.

Euron? His downfall should have come at the hands of Asha. Not a random, pointless  fight with Jaime.

Tyrion? One boneheaded move after another the past few episodes. No strategy, aside from making it clear that the bells ringing meant the city surrendered (and did it really? Because some people surrendered? Cersei didn't). He was sidelined to the keep during the battle with the NK. This is the guy who masterminded the successful battle of Blackwater Bay, reduced to an adviser who stared side eyed at Dany as she became nuttier. Why do this to him?

Varys? Uh, I guess. I mean, he seems to have sent messages to someone with some basic facts. Why didn't Dany use him when she found out? If she weren't mad, if she were at all strategic, she would have.

And what in the world was Jon doing this whole episode? He had to have seen the madness. Yet he stood around, silent. What kind of leader is that? I don't care that he loved his aunt. Tyrion stood up. Jon should have.

What. the Hell. Happened. To this show. I can't read these responses because I'm so disgusted and I cannot believe anyone who really watched GoT thinks the past two weeks were good. They were so, so bad.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

2 minutes ago, Ottis said:

Qyburns's death was ludicrous. I actually laughed. He was brushed aside by his creation, hits his head and dies. Pointless. They may as well have had a rock fall on his head. Far better and more poetic for Arya to have killed him, Wasn't he on her list?

No, he was never on her list.

Arya's list:

Joffrey
Cersei
Walder Frey
Meryn Trant
Tywin Lnnister
Meliandre
Berric Dondarrion
Thoros of Myr
Ilyn Pain
The Mountain
Polliver
Rorge
The Hound

[GodsBeloved]

5 hours ago, Law Mom said:

As for the mad queen, I feel like it is a failure of our education system that people didn’t see it coming. English Lit 101! It was projected from the very first episode. Was Dany ever righteous? Arguably not. The narcissist can do what looks like good deeds, but the motivation is not caring but admiration. Narcissists require supply. Dany freed slaves to gain a group of people who owed her and called her Mother, and then she gave herself the title Breaker of Chains. She took over the Unsullied and offered them a chance to leave, but how realistic is that. These men had no other life. So they followed her. She didn’t give a rat’s ass about them individually. She constantly referred to them as “her” army as if she owned them. She wore a mask of virtue but it was never real because she has no empathy.

This is a good point. It would be different if the Unsullied had been given a chance to be exposed to training for something other than fighting. This would have given them a viable choice. Continue fighting or do something new.

[Uncle JUICE]

2 minutes ago, Ottis said:

Varys? Uh, I guess. I mean, he seems to have sent messages to someone with some basic facts. Why didn't Dany use him when she found out? If she weren't mad, if she were at all strategic, she would have.

I'm adding this to the list of shit that makes no sense in this story. She could have conferred immediately with Varys and said "I'm willing to concede that this is my brother's son, and therefore my nephew, which means any banging has to stop. But let's put the rumor out there that some people are going to say he's the legitimate heir to the throne, but that's just a rumor started by his best friend and his brother. If we can get Jon,who does not want the Iron Throne, to acknowledge this, then in trade, I will grant the North independence and he can rule there or abdicate in favor of his sister." 

[Drogo]

11 minutes ago, Ottis said:

Varys? Uh, I guess. I mean, he seems to have sent messages to someone with some basic facts. Why didn't Dany use him when she found out? If she weren't mad, if she were at all strategic, she would have.

He was actively conspiring to ensure she didn't sit on the Iron Throne. 

He had a little bird in the kitchen letting him know whether she was eating, and he took off his rings when he was called before the Queen (which probably contained poison, a popular weapon among eunuchs.)  The little bird told him her soldiers were watching her closely (so it was probably getting more dangerous to continue poisoning her) and Varys told her the greater the risk the greater the reward.

He was trying to kill Daenerys.

Kings Landing antics aside, it'd be hard to justify not killing Varys. 

[chrisvee]

10 hours ago, MVFrostsMyPie said:

I guess you could say..... she brought the house down. 

rocks literally fell and everyone died 

[UNOSEZ]

In the end.. Varys was right

[staphdude]

10 hours ago, Growsonwalls said:

And what an insult to the work Nikolaj Coster Waldau and Gwendolyne Christie who acted the shit out of one of the most 'shipped romances on the show. We watched them meet. We watched them hate each other. We watched them slowly like each other. We watched that liking and trust turn to love. And we finally watched them consummate their relationship. After all that we're supposed to believe it meant nothing to Jaime and Brienne was just the side chick? Fuck that.

Jaime may have loved Brienne  but he Loved Cersei. Theirs was epic love. They had children together; she was carrying his child and he had killed for her. No one affected him like she did and had for his ENTIRE life. Of course he would go to her.

10 hours ago, Advance35 said:

Lena was phenomenal, as she slowly came to realize that it was all over.   As it all slowly, literally started to crumble around her.  I thought it was like opera.  Qyburn the victim of his own macabre creation.   

I think Cersei got her desserts, she knew it was over and we saw her absolutely terrified, more so then we ever have in the past.  And I believed her, when she was in the catacombs and she told Jamie she wanted to live and she wanted her child to live.   All I could think was Ned Stark wanted to live, Robb Stark wanted to live, Catelyn, Lancel, Margaery, Kevan, Olenna, Ellaria.

The fact that I felt a pang of empathy is down, purely to Lena's acting. 

Sandor warning Arya to turn back because he didn't want her to end up like everyone else, letting ambition and grudges lead them towards inevitable destruction.  He didn't want Arya to become him.

Daenerys is a monster.  The hero becomes the villain and all that.  I thought it was believable. She's grieving.  I don't like her but objectively, she's lost a lot of people recently.  So has everyone else in this story but Dany has dragons.

I felt sorry for Varys.  CH is a treasure.   And I found him oddly sympathetic.

Loved when Cersei noped the fuck out on the Clegane reunion. 

I get why people didn’t like Cersei’s ending but it was fitting. She dreaded dying in that hole and ultimately she is dead. The fact that she had Jaime there probably both gave some comfort but also brought home that she had no one else in her life.

22 minutes ago, Bali said:

OK- I've had the night to process this. I'm starting to lean towards it being okay. Stay with me here:

Danaerys tried to get Jon to kissy face her. He wouldn't because he's freaked out about the fact that she is his aunt. He said he loves her, because she's his queen, not because she's the woman he loves. She already knows that the Kingdom doesn't love her and isn't waiting for her return, like she's always been told they are. She knows that you can rule through love or fear. She doesn't think she's going to get love. So she chose fear. Nothing is more terrifying than destroying the city.

Varys betrayed her. He knows about Jon's true identity. Not sure how she knows because they aren't showing us anymore- the writers are telling us.

Drogon coming out of the shadows was cool.

Jamie has said 8 hundred million times that the only woman he loves is Cersei. We were all just fooling ourselves into thinking this was a redemption arc. He died with the woman he loves.

A quick death for Cersei would have been delightful. I wanted Arya to say, The North Remembers as she's pulling off Jamie's face more than anyone. But this way, she got to feel the abandonment and fear she has instilled for a while longer. AND- Arya is more than a soulless assassin.

Arya and The Hound- WONDERFUL SCENE- and one of my favorites in this whole series. When he said, Look at me, Revenge is all I've wanted my whole life- is this what you want to become? Tears in my eyes. Then she thanked him- for so many things.

Clegane bowl- sucked.

Tyrion being SO STUPID? SUCKED. I miss the days when he whored, drank, READ AND KNEW THINGS. But alas, those days are long gone because no one is telling him what to do and say.

Greyworm is just pissed. He loved Missendei. Now she is gone. He's acting out of revenge for everything that has been done to him in his whole life. He snapped- that one I get.

Jon Snow- tried to say, I don't want to be King. Tried to follow the Queen he believed in. Accepted the surrender of Cersei's soldiers. Didn't expect Greyworm to snap, or for Dany to be a big old fat lying psychopath. He did rescue at least one woman from a Dothraki rape. I don't think he was so much a worthless pussy as he was the representation of those of us that didn't want to admit there could be a dark side to Dany.

As for next week- yeah, Tyrion will have to pay for releasing Jamie- Dany already told him that the next time he lets her down will be his last. So, will Jon be able to save Tyrion in time? I hope so.

Maybe we'll find out that Arya is an unexpected dragon and that's why she didn't burn?

For me Jon is strong and true. This is what was necessary to break his resolve to support his Queen. The King of the North- Forged in fire and pain.

Edited May 13, 2019 by staphdude

[Popples]

[terrymct]

23 minutes ago, Bali said:

Jon Snow- tried to say, I don't want to be King. Tried to follow the Queen he believed in. Accepted the surrender of Cersei's soldiers. Didn't expect Greyworm to snap, or for Dany to be a big old fat lying psychopath. He did rescue at least one woman from a Dothraki rape. I don't think he was so much a worthless pussy as he was the representation of those of us that didn't want to admit there could be a dark side to Dany.

I don't think the wannabe rapist was Dothraki.  He had armor on.  He was probably a northman of some sort.

[Rambler]

Odds not looking so good for a Lord Bronn of Highgarden at this point…

[steelyis]

4 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

I'm adding this to the list of shit that makes no sense in this story. She could have conferred immediately with Varys and said "I'm willing to concede that this is my brother's son, and therefore my nephew, which means any banging has to stop. But let's put the rumor out there that some people are going to say he's the legitimate heir to the throne, but that's just a rumor started by his best friend and his brother. If we can get Jon,who does not want the Iron Throne, to acknowledge this, then in trade, I will grant the North independence and he can rule there or abdicate in favor of his sister." 

No, no, that would require compromise.

And Daenerys of the House Targaryen, the First of Her Name, The Unburnt, Queen of the Andals, the Rhoynar and the First Men, Queen of Meereen, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, Protector of the Realm, Lady Regent of the Seven Kingdoms, Breaker of Chains and Mother of Dragons, Does Not Compromise.

[Pestilentia]

9 hours ago, haje said:

tMaybe Dany never had any intention of ever letting that city survive once she had decided that the entire city was her enemy.  

IMO that's what she was doing during her week of seclusion/not eating- she was stewing over it. She had Tyrion on one shoulder urging her to show mercy and her inner tyrant on the other telling her "Fire and blood."  

She wasn't raging when she destroyed Kings' Landing- she had long since decided to do it.

[Mardo2044]

9 hours ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

So was Arya still alive at the end or was she in the afterlife? If she's still alive, maybe it's time for her to kill Dany.

I think that is the last we will see of her and I am happy with that.  The assasin listens to the Hound.

[Uncle JUICE]

3 minutes ago, steelyis said:

No, no, that would require compromise.

And Daenerys of the House Targaryen, the First of Her Name, The Unburnt, Queen of the Andals, the Rhoynar and the First Men, Queen of Meereen, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, Protector of the Realm, Lady Regent of the Seven Kingdoms, Breaker of Chains and Mother of Dragons, Does Not Compromise.

Would also require more nuance in characters than this show's been interested in showing for quite some time. 

[terrymct]

6 hours ago, Law Mom said:

I kind of like that Cersei died a lame death instead of the epic takedown most of us predicted. It’s the ultimate insult, to basically be ignored. I was really hoping that when Jaime showed up, it was actually Arya with his face, but in retrospect that would be fanservice and lazy writing. This was much more daring, to have Jaime admit that he is “hateful” by nature, like the scorpion who stings the turtle, redemption be damned.

As for the mad queen, I feel like it is a failure of our education system that people didn’t see it coming. English Lit 101! It was projected from the very first episode. Was Dany ever righteous? Arguably not. The narcissist can do what looks like good deeds, but the motivation is not caring but admiration. Narcissists require supply. Dany freed slaves to gain a group of people who owed her and called her Mother, and then she gave herself the title Breaker of Chains. She took over the Unsullied and offered them a chance to leave, but how realistic is that. These men had no other life. So they followed her. She didn’t give a rat’s ass about them individually. She constantly referred to them as “her” army as if she owned them. She wore a mask of virtue but it was never real because she has no empathy.

My most emotional moment was the Hound taking out the Mountain. Cried I did.

Also, Tyrion telling Jaime he was the only reason he survived his childhood was heartbreaking.

I think the show is forcing us to look back at Dany's rise with a new and more critical eye.  There was a fair amount that was whitewashed because she wanted to break chains, break the wheel, etc.   That's hard to do when you've become invested in a character over all these seasons and who has been through so much.

[kokapetl]

Varys clearly read the script. 

[RealReality]

5 hours ago, lvbalgurl said:

Oh, I wasn't meaning to say that Cersei is responsible for the actions Dany took - just that she is the reason they were in harm's way in the first place.  Cersei was obviously A Bad Ruler.  She didn't care about the people.  She didn't care about anything except she and Jaime and her children at first, and then herself and maintaining her grip on the IT in the later seasons.  Dany is responsible for how far she took things, absolutely.

After 8 seasons of watching Daenerys, I don't think she's evil.  I think you can go scorched earth and not be evil.  But, is she fucked up right now?  Yessir.

I also have to say - I thought Emilia was brilliant tonight.  I honestly think this is the best acting she's done on the show.  She was so freaking raw in that early Dany/Tyrion scene.  She was amazing.

I have to disagree.  Evil people do evil things.  I don't think good people roast women and children, and I think it's a dangerous thing to equivocate.  You burn up children you're an evil person in my book.  Heck, I thought melissandre was evil and she burned one kid.....Dany doesn't get a pass when she burned a city full of them.

[Bryce Lynch]

1 minute ago, steelyis said:

No, no, that would require compromise.

And Daenerys of the House Targaryen, the First of Her Name, The Unburnt, Queen of the Andals, the Rhoynar and the First Men, Queen of Meereen, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, Protector of the Realm, Lady Regent of the Seven Kingdoms, Breaker of Chains and Mother of Dragons, Does Not Compromise.

She compromised numerous times.

a) She went along with Drogo taking slaves to sell to buy her ships. (This was a bad compromise, but a compromise).

b) When the elderly former slave come to her saying he no longer had a job and wanted to be a slave again, she allowed indentured servitude on 1 year contracts.

c) She agreed to reopen the fighting pits in Meereen.

d) She went along with Tyrion's agreement to phase out slavery, until the Masters attacked again.

e) She agreed to the truce with Cersei.

f) She compromised and let Jon Snow mine dragonglass from Dragonstone.

g) She agreed to take her troops North.

She regularly made compromises and deferred to the judgment of her advisors.  The idea that she was always an unbending, mad queen is totally false.  

[Bali]

One more thing. I did Kind of enjoy watching Cersei's smug ass smirk turn to fear.

[RealReality]

13 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

In the end.. Varys was right

Varys was right and Tyrion knew it before he dropped a dime on him.

[Bryce Lynch]

5 minutes ago, terrymct said:

I think the show is forcing us to look back at Dany's rise with a new and more critical eye.  There was a fair amount that was whitewashed because she wanted to break chains, break the wheel, etc.   That's hard to do when you've become invested in a character over all these seasons and who has been through so much.

I think it is more like they are retconning Dany's entire story and character.  

[Wendy]

9 hours ago, Chris24601 said:

This didn't come from nowhere. If it had I wouldn't have been able to discuss the whole Shadow King aspect for weeks now and call up numerous references across the seasons hinting to this.

And I've skirted around it in previous threads because calling it by its name would have instantly put people off, but as I mentioned previously, there are two types of Shadow King; Jon has been one type; the Impotent King (but in seeing the slaughter is going to be moved to take up the role of True King because while he doesn't WANT to be king, he sees now that he NEEDS to be in order to protect people from things like this happening), but I'd only ever called Dany by the generic Shadow King title, not name for the specific manifestation...

The Tyrant. Dany has always been the Tyrant. She's fought it for years, but its always been where her story was headed.

And the Tyrant masks their insecurity in their own power with grandiose titles and, most importantly, massive displays of power meant to instill terror.

From the moment Dany said "Let it be Fear" everyone in King's Landing was her target. The surrender just meant she couldn't even pretend to mask it.

The Galactic Empire needed Alderaan, one of the Core Worlds of the galaxy, to burn as a sign of their unbridled power. They needed everyone under their thumb too terrified to even dare resist them.

Kings Landing was Dany's Alderaan. The biggest target on the map wiped out in maybe an hour. If only 10% of the city's population were killed we're looking at a death toll in the range of a HUNDRED THOUSAND people who had already surrendered.

Does anyone think it was limited to just 10%? 25%? 50%?

If she can't be loved, she's decided to be so feared that no one will ever dare question her authority... or that of her masked stormtroopers in black armor who slaughter surrendered people and innocents on her command or of her horde of murderous pillaging and raping horsemen as she burns innocents alive from the back of a great black dragon.

How much more crystal clear does it need to be?

GRRM gave this ending to D&D to write their show with and its crystal clear in retrospect... the entire point of Dany's arc has been to see the character arc of THE VILLAIN going from Nobody to Nightmare right alongside the protagonists... disguised by sympathetic moments and asshole victims at first, but becoming ever more obvious as the seasons wore on.

Let's not forget that her first victim was a slave who killed her master and that Dany had her burned alive. Everything she's ever done since has been about acquiring the power she'd need to conquer a land she'd never set foot in her life because she felt it was owed to her.

It honestly feels like a giant psychology experiment... how hard would it be to get the audience to root for the villain? How long would they keep defending her even as her actions got even more extreme?

And of the characters in the show, Sansa was the one who saw it clearly and decided to do something about it. Then again, she's been the one in closest regular vicinity to psychopaths. She learned to recognize the signs.

Dany had already ignored her suggestion to rest the troops. Rhaeghal and Missandie would have died anyway. Jon would have still refused her sexual advances. "Let it be Fear" would have still been Dany's command. The ONLY thing Sansa telling Tyrion changed was giving Varys the feeling he had an option other a woman teetering on the edge of unending rage.

Now its left to Jon, Arya and Tyrion to find a way to stop the Tyrant before its too late.

100% agree

I guess that is the part that I am struggling more with this morning.  Not with the production of the episode but with viewers reactions. Whether it was poorly written, whether it was too rushed, whether it was unexpected for some viewers the only thing that matters is what we saw on our screens. 

We saw a woman blind with rage, a woman who has decided that in order to feel no remorse for killing Varys she was going to pin the blame on Sansa, not her who gave the order to Dracarys, but Sansa who is not even the one who told Varys, a woman scorned because the guy she wanted had moral principles and couldn't be with his aunt, a woman who has decided before the attack what her course of action was going to be, we all saw her burn civilians and children. We saw her use her dragon to burn thousands upon thousands of innocent people. 

Yet some are still looking for excuses, it was Jon's fault because he couldn't bring himself to give her the D.. , it was Sansa's fault because she told the secret, it was Cersei's fault because she killed Missandei, it was Tyrion's fault because she told Varys, it was Varys fault because he wanted to spread the news, THEY, THEY, THEY, THEY drove her out of her mind with grief, it it their fault she snapped, poor Daenerys just couldn't help herself. 

Daenerys and only Daenerys gave the order to her dragon to burn innocent people when they had surrendered, her armies only followed her lead. She is the one responsible for this massacre, if we took pain, grief, jealousy and resentment as the perfect excuse to go about killing people then just about any crime could be forgiven. 

I am not surprised by her behavior as I have known what she was capable of, I am just baffled by the willingness to find excuses and try to justify her abominable and cruel behavior. The best villains in real history are the ones charismatic enough to talk about justice and change but they are the worse kind of tyrants, we are so willing to believe. This just shows me that we haven't learn from history, we still are looking for saviors in all the wrong places. 

[GodsBeloved]

5 hours ago, ferjy said:

Now that Jamie is out of the picture, I want my happy ending for Tormund. 

And that sisterfucker Jaime ... Brienne 

I want to raise him from those rocks and dracarys his azz

Edited May 13, 2019 by GodsBeloved

[Chaos Theory]

No one gets to kill Cersei because the show doesn’t and has never worked that way.  And irony of ironies even as the city burned to the ground the most effecting scene was Cersei seeing Jamie again.  That look really got to me.   If anything the show at least played that right.  Tragic lovers who could never love anyone else.  

I would have added one line at the end of the conversation between Jaime and Tyrion when Tyrion said Jaime was the only one who didn’t make him feel like a monster.  I would have Jaime say  “We were the monsters.”

But maybe it wasn’t needed

Edited May 13, 2019 by Chaos Theory

[Raachel2008]

I'm no sure why people are complaining about Cersei and Jaime having a 'romantic' death; this show's biggest love story has always been Cersei and Jamie. It was their love story that made Jaime push Bran from a window, thus starting the whole part of the saga that was not NK related. It was their love story that started a hundred of other plots, Joffrey included.

I never had any doubts that they would die together. I'm sorry for the Brienne/Jaime fans, because that Brienne/Jaime love scene should never have happened, it was fan service at its worst - and what came next (Jaime leaving) added insult to injury.

Did I like it? No. I would have liked Jaime to kill Cersei in attempt to prevent the battle/finish his sister reign. But I'm more at peace about how it ending for those two than I think I would be.

No wonder D&D gave Lena so much to do all those years. She is a far superior  actress than most of the other actresses in the entire series - currently, only Gwendoline is at the same level,

The best scene of the entire episode was the Jamie and Tyrion talk. Amazing work by NCW and Peter Dinklage. It is a crime what they've done to Tyrion those two past seasons, making him "dumb" for the sake of the plot. 

"You were the only one who never treated me like a monster". Snif. 

But as a Stark fan, I'm pissed at D&D; the Lannisters siblings get to have nice dialogues and such, we didn't even see Arya's and Sansa's reaction learning that Jon is a Targaryen. Heck, Jon and Arya were in the same city and those stupid writers couldn't even write a scene where Jon and Arya see each other in the middle of the chaos but are separated.

Loved the Arya and Hound talk, "Sandor". I think it was amazing character growth for Arya to give up on killing Cersei and leave.  Wish the Hound had done the same. Cleaganebowl was brutal. I could have done without the eye popping stuff.

Arya got the Samwell Trly treatment this week, didn't he? I mean, I know that someone will always survive against the odds, but did they need to imply twice she was dead? And talk about being traumatized for life. I wonder if this experience will make Arya just give up on being an assassin.

I don't think Dany going mad/snapping/deciding to unleash all her power is exactly character assassination, we've seen she burn people before and we've seen that she has been trying to keep her temper in check for a couple of seasons at least. 

I'm not against the Dany going mad/whatever act. It has always been there, the need of power and the hints thatone day she could snap - by anger, power hunger or whatever. I'm just pissed that it was done with such crap writing and in a way that wasn't organic. Everyone in a position of power in a war is full aware that a colateral damage of war is the killing of innocents - and some of them will still give those orders/execute them because they reach a point where either don't care or want to rule by fear.

 I don't think we've seen this process with Dany in a conscious ways, no matter how much Tyrion, Varys and Jon told her. I wouldn't call Dany burning KL character assassination, she decided to be the dragon and seize a throne that is not hers  and if she had to kill a million people? So be it. But it was poorly done. 

RIP, Jon Snow. Cause of death: character assassination by plot devices.

I'm willing to bet that Varys was sending those letters to Dorne, the Vale, Riverrun, Braavo, and we hear about them next week.

D&D are lazy writers, and it became clear once they didn't have the book material anymore. But even so I think the biggest mistake was two sorther seasons. Those 8 episodes (4 last season, 4 this one) were important in order to develop this season's stories - namely Dany's descent into madness/corruption by power, Jon being a Targaryen, the Battle of Winterfell and the seize of King's Landing.

[jay741982]

9 hours ago, Dobian said:

So Kings Landing is a burning wreck, and the only ones left standing are Arya and a white stallion.  Eeeeeokay.

Spoiler

They showed Tyrion walking around the Ashes in the series finale Preview 

Edited May 13, 2019 by SilverStormm
Tagged preview info.

[Constantinople]

It would have been much more credible if the the show runners wrote a scenario where Daenerys mistakenly thought the ringing of the bells was a trap. After all, it's not as if Cersei can be trusted.

But no, Disco Queen must destroy everything

But which song drove her mad?

You can ring my bell-l-l

Ring my bell

or

Burn baby burn, disco inferno

Burn baby burn, burn that mother down

[Lillith]

40 minutes ago, Bali said:

Jamie has said 8 hundred million times that the only woman he loves is Cersei. We were all just fooling ourselves into thinking this was a redemption arc. He died with the woman he loves.

A quick death for Cersei would have been delightful. I wanted Arya to say, The North Remembers as she's pulling off Jamie's face more than anyone. But this way, she got to feel the abandonment and fear she has instilled for a while longer. AND- Arya is more than a soulless assassin.

I agree with most of your points and these two with a couple small exeptions. I still think it's clear Jaime loves Brienne as well but feels it Cersei he deserves and she was pregnant with his child so I sort of get it. My issue was him saying flippantly to Tyrion, with whom he is normally honest, that he doesn't care about the people of KL? WTF? He lost his reputation as an "honorable" kingsguard to protect them and know he doesn't care? The Cersei thing had some sense, that part had none. 

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, RealReality said:

Varys was right and Tyrion knew it before he dropped a dime on him.

Just more horrible writing.  They show Varys as having an irrational hatred of Dany, once he found out that Jon had a better claim.  Dany hadn't done anything to make him turn against her, he just thought that he, the all wise Eunuch, who should get to decide on his own, who gets to rule the Realm, had found a better King.  

So, instead of trying to convince her to step aside or leaving her camp and working against her, he writes raven scrolls against her, inside her own castle, and tries to have her poisoned, which if successful might have left Cersei in charge, as Drogon might not have fought for anyone else.

But, they make him "right".  

It is along the same lines of Jaime being "right" for going back to his treacherous, murderous, incestuous sister (who sent Bronn to murder him) and giving them a romantic ending.  

Just horrible, horrible storytelling.

If Varys had more tangible cause for turning on her, or she had burned him for speaking his mind to her to her face, as she had commanded him to, then they reasonably could have made Varys a good guy.  

[enoughcats]

20 minutes ago, staphdude said:

For me Jon is strong and true. This is what was necessary to break his resolve to support his Queen. The King of the North- Forged in fire and pain.

Which, to me, explains Euron's miracle marksmanship in taking out a dragon with two near perfect shots. 

If he had missed, Dany would have had two, count 'em two, dragons.  Who would have ridden the second dragon to Kings' Landing?  Jon not-Snow. And that would have entailed at the very least some burning of the population, taking him away from being Jon Strong and True.  With only one dragon, Dany was the pit master. 

[Uncle JUICE]

5 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I think it is more like they are retconning Dany's entire story and character.  

100% this. There's a wide gap between foreshadowing the mad queen "arc" (which is in quotes because it's happening too fast to be an actual arc, it's more like a leap) and just DOING the thing. Yup, she crucified the masters. Without reason? No. Yes, she burned the Tarlys. Was that, AT THE TIME, even hinted at as a Mad Queen decision, or was that more of a strateigc error?

Also, fuck you Game of Thrones for basically making brown people invade a white city and rape the fuck out of everyone and just go out of control. Poor fucking form. Yeah, I know northerners were with them. Was there a single brown victim in King's Landing? Tone fucking deaf. 

[steelyis]

23 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

She compromised numerous times.

a) She went along with Drogo taking slaves to sell to buy her ships. (This was a bad compromise, but a compromise).

b) When the elderly former slave come to her saying he no longer had a job and wanted to be a slave again, she allowed indentured servitude on 1 year contracts.

c) She agreed to reopen the fighting pits in Meereen.

d) She went along with Tyrion's agreement to phase out slavery, until the Masters attacked again.

e) She agreed to the truce with Cersei.

f) She compromised and let Jon Snow mine dragonglass from Dragonstone.

g) She agreed to take her troops North.

She regularly made compromises and deferred to the judgment of her advisors.  The idea that she was always an unbending, mad queen is totally false.  

All true.

Except none of the above ever directly compromised her claim to the Iron Throne. Some of them delayed it, but none of them endangered her quest the way Jon's birthright has.

Edited May 13, 2019 by steelyis

[terrymct]

6 minutes ago, Wendy said:

 I am not surprised by her behavior as I have known what she was capable of, I am just baffled by the willingness to find excuses and try to justify her abominable and cruel behavior. The best villains in real history are the ones charismatic enough to talk about justice and change but they are the worse kind of tyrants, we are so willing to believe. This just shows me that we haven't learn from history, we still are looking for saviors in all the wrong places. 

Very well said throughout your post.  

I think part of the issue is that so many of us are deeply invested in this show and the books.  We've spent hours thinking about the legends and prophesies, debating clues and imagining how it will or should turn out.   But the thing is that the books and show are about knocking expected narratives on their heads.   How many arcs in this show looked like they were headed an easily predicted direction, then abruptly changed?   Then you look back and there were actually a few clues here and there, a few shocks like Ned's beheading, but in most cases there were clues.

[Raachel2008]

9 hours ago, SueB said:

- Dany didn't go mad.  And for that I'm grateful.  They didn't show her irrationale at all.  Instead they made it clear in her speech to Jon -- the people of Westros would NEVER love her so she'll burn it all down and the next generation will have a better life.

Except she killed the next generation.

[Dobian]

7 minutes ago, jay741982 said:

They showed Tyrion walking around the Ashes in the series finale Preview 

He was outside the attack zone.  Where Arya was, everyone around her got turned into ash, all except her.  Her plot armor was dragon fireproof.

[terrymct]

6 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Just more horrible writing.  They show Varys as having an irrational hatred of Dany, once he found out that Jon had a better claim.  

Nothing about Varys was irrational and he didn't show a bit of hatred.  He weighed which one would make a better ruler and would be better accepted by the lords of Westeros.   That's not irrational hatred.

[GodsBeloved]

5 hours ago, rebel2u said:

So, for Dany, it was the thought process of "if I can't take and hold my place as ruler by being most loved, then I'll be most feared--how do you like me now?"  So she destroyed the whole kingdom, as she has destroyed many people and places before in order to hold onto her title of queen; it seems to me that she is less mad and more calculated.  She'll start out as nice but if she has to be cruel to obtain her ultimate goal of ruler of the Iron Throne, then she'll do what she has to do without compunction. 

For me this is exactly why I wouldn't want to be ruled over by dracarys, I mean Daenerys 😀

This says to me that she wasn't about making life better for her kingdom, she was about making herself King. She is too full of herself if she thinks her being Queen = making life better. I guess that's the savior complex, a complex I hate.

[Hana Chan]

Okay... now to hash things out, character by character:

Dany - I'd made a pretty length post about my views on this being a pretty understandable endpoint for her character to reach in the character thread. I think that there were plenty of hints for a long time that she would take this path and don't believe that it's as whiplash a result as some here have posted.

Varys - He'd made it clear to Dany all along that his loyalty to her extended only so far as he believed that she would be good for Westeros. Wonder how many of those messages he was able to get out before he was arrested and executed...

Tyrion - Is learning that there's only so long you can juggle flaming chainsaws before they all come crashing around your head. The scene with Jamie had me in tears. He's trying to do right by Dany, but she's made it clear that she's done with him. 

Cersei - After watching again, her death is very fitting. She died stripped of everything - all of her power and wealth ending up meaning nothing. The one thing she had was Jamie. A rather inglorious end.

Jamie - He was never going to be able to let Cersei go, even if he did try to be a better man. But he died with the woman that he loved. Since he couldn't save her, that was the best end he could have asked for.

Grey Worm - I know there are a lot of people upset with how he was portrayed, but to me, this was him at his most human. This wan't the super-disciplined soldier that only killed on command. This was a man broken by the death of the woman that he loved. 

Sandor - Finally took on his brother and saved Arya from his fate. He died a hero. Here's hoping that there are lots of chickens for him in the afterlife.

Arya - Interesting to have someone so immune to the sight of death totally overwhelmed by the level of destruction Dany wrought on KL. Big difference between an epic battle and this level of wanton slaughter. Maybe marrying the hot blacksmith isn't such a bad idea after all.

Jon - Another one caught between a rock and a hard place. His honor demands that he fulfill his oaths to Dany, but she is proving that she is no longer deserving of his loyalty. He tried to curtail the worst of the slaughter from the ground, but there was a limit to what he could do. Interesting that after several weeks of not seeing him wearing any symbols of his Northern heritage (not since he learned of his parentage), he's back to wearing the Stark armor. 

Yeah... don't foresee a lot of happy endings for the survivors.

Edited May 13, 2019 by Hana Chan

[Uncle JUICE]

2 minutes ago, terrymct said:

Nothing about Varys was irrational and he didn't show a bit of hatred.  He weighed which one would make a better ruler and would be better accepted by the lords of Westeros.   That's not irrational hatred.

The problem is that there's no groundwork for Varys's decision here, not enough of one at any rate. He likes brood-y leaders therefore Jon's best? Jon's more popular? He knows popularity doesn't make an effective leader. They spent plenty of time with Varys on vacation or spening episodes looking pinched faced in the background, they could have shown him starting to make this calculation a little more. People even point to burning the Tarlys...what choice did they leave her? She couldn't make that pronouncement in front of Tarly soldiers and then NOT execute Randall (you can't blame her for Dickon). How's it better if one of the Dothraki arakh his head clean off rather than burning him by dragon fire? They needed more than three or four scenes where Varys expresses or demonstrates some sort of consternation with SPECIFICS. Instead it just kind of feels like he decides all at once. He also never takes any responsibility for what's happened, nor does Tyrion. THAT would have been a very interesting scene. 

[Bryce Lynch]

2 minutes ago, terrymct said:

Nothing about Varys was irrational and he didn't show a bit of hatred.  He weighed which one would make a better ruler and would be better accepted by the lords of Westeros.   That's not irrational hatred.

He seemed low key unhinged to me.  When he found out about Jon, he had no more reason to worry about Dany's fitness than when he joined her team.  

Once they took KL, the Lords or Westeros would have fallen in line.   Varys was looking for excuses to throw Dany aside and give the crown to Jon.     

Poisoning the Queen you swore allegiance to, because the Lords of Westeros (who fell in line for Cersei) would be more accepting of a man is rational?   

[Hana Chan]

11 minutes ago, Uncle JUICE said:

100% this. There's a wide gap between foreshadowing the mad queen "arc" (which is in quotes because it's happening too fast to be an actual arc, it's more like a leap) and just DOING the thing. Yup, she crucified the masters. Without reason? No. Yes, she burned the Tarlys. Was that, AT THE TIME, even hinted at as a Mad Queen decision, or was that more of a strateigc error?

I'd made a point on the Dany thread that this wasn't the actions of someone who was "mad". But it was cruel, premeditated and the behavior of someone who had made the decision that she would rather rule as a tyrant than give up ruling at all. She's acting out because she's not being embraced by Westeros, so she'd rather take power and rule by terror.

[Bryce Lynch]

13 minutes ago, steelyis said:

All true.

Except none of the above ever directly compromised her claim to the Iron Throne. Some of them delayed it, but none of them endangered her quest the way Jon's birthright has.

But the original premise was that she never compromises, period.

Besides that, on camera nobody ever even floated the reigning side by side with Jon idea.  Varys nixed it, not because he was sure she would reject it, but because he thought Dany was too strong for Jon, and would dominate the shared reign, and he apparently wanted a weaker ruler.  

[Uncle JUICE]

1 minute ago, Hana Chan said:

I'd made a point on the Dany thread that this wasn't the actions of someone who was "mad". But it was cruel, premeditated and the behavior of someone who had made the decision that she would rather rule as a tyrant than give up ruling at all. She's acting out because she's not being embraced by Westeros, so she'd rather take power and rule by terror.

It's a fair assessment, in that because we're not shown her being "insane", she could literally just be "angry," but I honestly don't think that's what the show wanted, that ambiguity. I think they wanted us to say "Wow, she's burning everything therefore she's crazy." There's a lot of very, very interesting ways to get to Insane Dany, just having her lose her shit after seeing her friend die is just the path of least resistance. Have her SLOWLY get there. Have this battle scene in place right after she has a blow up on her team of advisors...that's a scene you can get Emmys out of. GYAAAAAAAAHHHHHH BURN THIS SHIT! is not an emmy scene. 

[DarkRaichu]

What a dumpster fire. Literally.  And I thought my sugary sweet good ending for everyone speculation was the worst that could have happened to the show.  Bravo showrunners for making something worst than some dude on the internet wrote.

Seriously, we started the episode with TWO QUEENS, one with dragon fire under her butt and the other with a mad genius under her command.  By the end, 1 of the women was reduced to sobbing and tears.  While the other went mad and killed everyone in the city EXCEPT for the 1 woman who was responsible for the beheading of her best friend.  Logic, am I rite ???

I more of these hot garbage and I am done with this sh*t

[RealReality]

5 hours ago, ferjy said:

Now that Jamie is out of the picture, I want my happy ending for Tormund. 

YASS please!

2 hours ago, Neurochick said:

These are my thoughts today and hopefully I'll shut up about this episode.

I do understand why people hate this episode, we've been presented with a version of Dany and this version is very different, also many of us see the world as black and white, nothing wrong with that.

Because I'm a black woman, I always watched Missandei, where she stood, if she said anything.  She rarely said anything but she was always THERE with Dany and Grey Worm.  I think because she didn't say or do anything physical, many thought her character insignificant, but I never did.  To me she was a force, a force that Dany, probably didn't realize she was drawing from. 

When Dany's second child was killed, and then Missandei brutally beheaded in front of her (reminded me of Ned Stark), Dany no longer had that calming force, she no longer had her child.  Dany didn't go bad, she was hurt, scared, angry, she'd lost nearly everybody she cared about to top that off, she found out that she was not the only Targaryan in the house and it's Jon Snow to top it off, a man that everybody seems to like.  Sure he doesn't want the Iron Throne, but that doesn't mean others won't conspire to get rid of Dany to put him on the throne.  

As I said in an earlier post, I have worked with people who've done a complete 180 after suffering a trauma, and this trauma wasn't physical death, but the loss of 20 years of work; and that changed this person and not in a good way.  They didn't burn people alive, but burned several people professionally; sometimes when I think about it now, it gives me chills.

Years ago I either read an article, or heard someone talk regarding Apartheid in South Africa.  This person said that when you take everything away from someone, causing them to have nothing to lose, that person becomes very dangerous, which is why I felt Dany became.

People aren't one way or another, people are complex.   And sometimes I think this show says, "hey, anybody can become a Cersei" given the right motivation.  

IMHO, people who burn up innocent children when a city has surrendered aren't "complex," they are very easy....because they are evil, or crazy (mad).  Some actions are beyond justification and equivocation.

Not even cersei killed her people en masse when they submitted to her, and she was the most evil character on the show.  Cersei was evil, but most of her horrible deeds made some sort of sense.  Dany burning that city made no sense.  Dany isn't fit to rule a damn thing.

I also think it's a disservice to compare Dany to people suffering under the yoke of apartheid.  Dany had all the power and killed a city full of people.  People in s. Africa had no power and their purpose in violence was to try to simply get equality.  Dany had absolutely no reason to burn that city.

But yeah, roasting up kids after a city has surrendered and you already won is very very black and white to me.  There is no grey in that situation.

Pro tip - if you love your child dragons so much, stop trotting them out every chance you get knowing that they can be killed.  Dany knew, from the night king fight that her dragons were vulnerable.  

[Drogo]

Just now, GodsBeloved said:

I wonder if she sees the people as wronging her because in her words "far more people in Westerios love you than love me. I don't have love here."

She sees the people as wronging her because they didn't rise up against Cersei like Tyrion said they would. 

Quote

Tyrion:  The people who live there, they're not your enemies.  They're innocents, like the ones you liberated in Meereen. 
Daenerys:  In Meereen, the slaves turned on the masters and liberated the city themselves the moment I arrived.
Tyrion:  They're afraid.  Anyone who resists Cersei will see his family butchered.  You can't expect them to be heroes.  They're hostages.
Daenerys:  They are, in a tyrant's grip.  Whose fault is that, mine?  Your sister knows how to use her enemies' weaknesses against them.  That's what she thinks our mercy is:  weakness.  But she's wrong.  Mercy is our strength.  Our mercy towards future generations who will never again be held hostage by a tyrant.  Ready the Unsullied.
Tyrion:  Cersei's followers will abandon her if they know the war is lost.  Give them that chance.  If the city surrenders, they will ring the bells and raise the gates. 

The Meereenese slaves killed their masters and liberated themselves when Daenerys arrived.  They were inspired by her greatness, her willingness to risk all to save them from the tyranny that had destroyed their lives and the lives of their children.  They found strength in her strength and changed their circumstances.  They appreciated and loved her from the moment she arrived as they realized their present situation was as bad as bad gets. 

The KL crowd just sat in their pile of shit city and waited for another tyrant to replace the one they already had, and well- that's exactly what they got.  She wasn't their savior, coming to break the wheel.  She wasn't the rightful heir to the Iron Throne, Breaker of Chains and Mother of Dragons coming to unseat cruel Cersei and her team of demon monkeys.  She was just another Queen, more of the same.   

Is that all I am to you, your Queen? 
All right, then.  Let it be fear.

[proserpina65]

So much for breaking the wheel.  Dany, you are now officially worse than Cersei.

I'm going out on a limb and say that I thought this was a good episode (hard to say I enjoyed it because of all the death) but it was nowhere near the worst GOT episode.  That would be Unbowed, Unbent, Unbroken from Season 5.

And it's my belief that the producers and writers more than adequately laid the groundwork for Dany's turn to madness starting in early Season 2, so I don't think it was sudden or badly written, either.

But I get that this is probably a minority opinion, and I can live with that.

Whatever Kit Harrington's inadequacies as an actor may be (and he does have them), his expression when Jon saw how horribly out of control the situation had gotten was stellar.