S08.E03: The Long Night

[GraceK]

15 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

When she came to his rescue, and she landed she was still on Drogon.  Jon left her, in pursuit of the NK while she was still on Drogon.  He had no reason to believe that she couldn't protect herself.  If she has taken back to the air, instead of sitting there, she would have been fine.

Also, he said “ BRAN!” And she said “ GO!” And then he left. He didn’t just leave her to die.  If anything, it looked to me like he was asking her if it was ok that he took off, he was letting her know that he had to find him, and she told him to go. The entire time they were battling together. Even in the air, he was calling her name to see where she was, he followed her when she made the decision to mount her dragon, she’s the one who rescued him in the air from the NKs attack and knocked him off Viserion. They were communicating the entire time, and when she dropped down on drogon  she gave him time to run after Bran, watching his back, which is why she got swarmed. If that’s not love between them what is? He respects her as a warrior. Unlike Sam who he literally left to die. Like bye bitch you should have been in the crypts I got no time for this! 😂

Edited April 30, 2019 by GraceK

[Efzee]

2 minutes ago, Absurda said:

All that said, when she pointed out to Tyrion that his loyalty to the dragon queen would be a problem between them, I didn't get the feeling that she was throwing shade on anyone.  Just being truthful and reflective.  In the moment, I thought Missendei's comeback to her was overly harsh. 

Of course, Missendei's overall message (this woman is fighting and potentially dying for the North, doesn't that earn some loyalty from you?) is worth Sansa hearing.  She doesn't have to give up on an independent North, but she could at least see Dany is not the enemy.

Sansa should have said the Queen/Queen Danaerys (in case she'd be worried he thought her reference was to Cersei) since the KitN bent the knee to Dany. Instead, she used "dragon queen", which is the moniker Dany's enemies (including Cersei) use. Even if she'd simply said Danaerys it would have come across better than "dragon queen", although still lacking respect considering Jon accepted Dany as their queen.

[Sakura12]

Sansa and Tyrion were the only one with weapons down there and they chose to hide first. They didn't even help others hide with them. 

Up top we saw the Northerners, the Unsullied, Brieanne, Jamie, and everyone working together and helping if they could while also being swarmed by a hundred thousand undead. 

[MadameKillerB]

agreed re: Sansa calling Dany "Dragon Queen"

I'm a Sansa fan but she's really pushing it with her disrespect of Dany's status.

Edited April 30, 2019 by MadameKillerB

[Constantinople]

21 minutes ago, kieyra said:

I legitimately do not know what words of comfort were supposed to have sufficed when they were facing the literal extinction of all life. The fact that there was nothing she could say drove home how dire the situation was. The characters spent all of the previous episode discussing their upcoming certain death, and yet Sansa is still supposed to perform some sort of Mommy role for the actual adults around her, and lie about how everything is going to be fine? Even Tyrion didn't bother with pointless pep talks. 

Sansa: Cheer up everyone, when the dead break in to slaughter us all, at least we won't "be in for a bit of a rape" as my old friend Cersei would say. At least I don't think we will. My brother Bran, the dude who can't be bothered to warg into the ice dragon, never told me any stories about wight rapists.  He also didn't warn me about the dead rising from the crypts, even though any viewer paying half attention to last week's episode saw it a mile away. So we're perfectly safe. Scone anyone?

Edited April 30, 2019 by Constantinople

[screamin]

18 minutes ago, catrice2 said:

Deciding to fight at the very end wins no points with me.

Still better than not fighting at all. To each their own.

[Bali]

27 minutes ago, Efzee said:

What kind of admin do you think Sansa has been doing as Lady of Winterfell while Jon was recruiting Dany etc.? Genuine question. Because she did not have a clue about how much food they had, how much had been brought in by the northerners, how many mouths they could feed and so on. Granted, she was the one who caught the lack of leather for the new armor but if she'd been up to date on production numbers and the amounts of raw material they had etc. then she would have already known this without having to see it.

The amount of food that they have would change every day. She isn't in the kitchen counting as it goes to the people who are pouring in. There are more and more people coming every day. Are they bringing food with them? How much are they eating?

Admin crap is BORING! I know this- it's what I do for a living. I shuffle and sign papers. And it would make the most boring reality show in the history of TV. We only get 6 episodes this season, and HBO decided that not all of them get to be over an hour. So, some stuff is going to get cut. It has to. There were already people complaining about how Epi 1 and 2 were "too talkie". This is why there are so many flavors of jelly beans- because we all like different things. I would have not been happy if I had to watch even 5 minutes of my precious cut season watching Sansa look over ledgers and say, "Well, I think we can cut a few corners by using honey instead of sugar in the stew." YAWN!

I think Sansa is smart. She knows Cersei- the real Cersei. Hopefully, the will listen to her next week. She has a resting bitch face that people don't like. She didn't start this whole thing- she was a victim of LF as much as anyone on this show. She was a romantic child who essentially got sold as a sex slave (wife) to a skin cutting psychopath. She earned her right to be bitter. But all of this lead her to be the woman who knows that handing over trust blindly is just plain stupid.

[Drogo]

On ‎4‎/‎29‎/‎2019 at 1:11 AM, Drogo said:

I'd say the fact that she referred to her as The Dragon Queen and not The Queen or Queen Daenerys spoke volumes. "The Dragon Queen" sounds like something only Daenerys' enemies would call her.

And Missandei wasn't here for it, because Daenerys isn't an enemy of the North, and shouldn't be treated as such. 

If Daenerys or one of her advisors started publicly referring to Sansa as "The Wolf Lady" I doubt she'd think little of the insolence. 

[MissLucas]

As has been said before - logistics are boring but here goes.

Quote

1 hour ago, Efzee said:

What kind of admin do you think Sansa has been doing as Lady of Winterfell while Jon was recruiting Dany etc.? Genuine question. Because she did not have a clue about how much food they had, how much had been brought in by the northerners, how many mouths they could feed and so on. Granted, she was the one who caught the lack of leather for the new armor but if she'd been up to date on production numbers and the amounts of raw material they had etc. then she would have already known this without having to see it.

Sansa knew how much food they had when Jon returned - she said that she had made sure the provisions would last them over winter. She did complain about the additional number of people and animals but that's what every good quartermaster does.

Nobody starved to death in Winterfell, even after the arrival of additional forces - who may or may not have brought along their own provisions (don't get me started on the dragons again).

We see Davos handing out soup to refugees. Someone had to think of setting up that makeshift kitchen in the courtyard, ordering people to prepare soup and bake all the loaves of bread we saw on shelves in the background. 

Someone had to decide where to put (and feed) all the people flocking into Winterfell that were not refugees but teams helping to prepare for the siege, where to put the make-shift smithy for Gendry (Winterfell had a smithy but I think he got additional workspace), where to store the dragonglass etc. The whole courtyard of Winterfell was transformed and someone had to make sure the different work-forces within the courtyard would not collide. Basically all the pesky background logistics  required to get the castle siege-ready would fall under her supervision.

She also had to make sure that Daenerys and her entourage got fitting quarters. And did I mention that Arya got a nifty new coat, bespoke for a leftie?

Most of that stuff is boring as hell to watch - that's why we did not see it. But since Winterfell did not fall into disarray and collapse under the number of people suddenly assembling within its walls and furthermore was siege-ready just before the NK arrived I'd say she did her job. 

Almost forgot: she also had to make sure there was someone at the ready to push Bran to wherever he wanted to sit and creepily stare into the void.

 

Edited April 30, 2019 by MissLucas

[DarkRaichu]

49 minutes ago, lorbeer said:

Yeah, at first... She and Jorah were there for quite time...

Have you ever tried to get 100 mosquitoes off your body without using your hands?  GoT Dragons don't have hands

Edited April 30, 2019 by DarkRaichu

[lorbeer]

4 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Have you ever tried to get 100 mosquitoes off your body without using your hands?  GoT Dragons don't have hands

Noo.. Let's not get that serious about that 😉

[tv-talk]

8 hours ago, MarySNJ said:

When did Jon ‘let the North get decimated... for the love of Dany?’ I saw fucking chaos everywhere. I saw both Dany and Jon incinerating wights, the dragons fighting in the sky and Drogon and Rhaegal injured. I don’t get this at all.

The NK and Jon were both atop dragons around the castle walls and the NK took off to go find Bran- Jon immediately followed and this was just as the undead had crossed the fire trenches and were swarming the walls. The NK was gone and Jon could have easily torched thousands and thousands of undead- instead without a 2nd thought he took off after the NK and the undead got into Winterfell.

[sistermagpie]

Mary SNJ:

"When did Jon ‘let the North get decimated... for the love of Dany?’ I saw fucking chaos everywhere. I saw both Dany and Jon incinerating wights, the dragons fighting in the sky and Drogon and Rhaegal injured. I don’t get this at all."

13 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

The NK and Jon were both atop dragons around the castle walls and the NK took off to go find Bran- Jon immediately followed and this was just as the undead had crossed the fire trenches and were swarming the walls. The NK was gone and Jon could have easily torched thousands and thousands of undead- instead without a 2nd thought he took off after the NK and the undead got into Winterfell.

But what does that have to do with love of Dany? I thought getting the NK was supposed to be Jon's goal and killing him would get rid of all the undead?

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, Efzee said:

What kind of admin do you think Sansa has been doing as Lady of Winterfell while Jon was recruiting Dany etc.? Genuine question. Because she did not have a clue about how much food they had, how much had been brought in by the northerners, how many mouths they could feed and so on. Granted, she was the one who caught the lack of leather for the new armor but if she'd been up to date on production numbers and the amounts of raw material they had etc. then she would have already known this without having to see it.

She did a great job. Winterfell's population tripled in size, added thousands of horses, in the dead of winter, ans by the time the battle started, nobody that we saw was unable to fight due to malnutrition, lack of water, shelter, or disease. We have already seen in this universe that it is like Earth in that regard; in times of chaotic war, material deprivation and disease is as easily  a deadly threat as combat, if not more so. Sansa delegated and managed so as to largely allow the other military leaders to concentrate on managing the combat. She was rather like the Union Army's  magnificent Quartermaster General Meigs, in the American Civil War, who although not known well by non-experts, may have been as important to ultimate victory as U.S. Grant.

Large scale warfare is logistics, through and through, even if it is visually and emotionally boring.

[MVFrostsMyPie]

2 hours ago, GraceK said:

What I didn’t like was her coming in and looking at everyone , not even giving a smile, and then her reference to Dany.

How does one smile in a situation like that? I'm not sure if I was one of the crypt folks, that a smile from Sansa would necessarily reassure me and it wouldn't feel genuine - I'd still be scared shitless, plus I wouldn't believe her anyway if she started throwing out platitudes, and really it would seem kind of inappropriate and pointless, with all that's going on out there. 

[GraceK]

1 minute ago, MVFrostsMyPie said:

How does one smile in a situation like that? I'm not sure if I was one of the crypt folks, that a smile from Sansa would necessarily reassure me and it wouldn't feel genuine - I'd still be scared shitless, plus I wouldn't believe her anyway if she started throwing out platitudes, and really it would seem kind of inappropriate and pointless, with all that's going on out there. 

True the NK smiled and it was not something I want to see again. 

[MarySNJ]

12 minutes ago, tv-talk said:

The NK and Jon were both atop dragons around the castle walls and the NK took off to go find Bran- Jon immediately followed and this was just as the undead had crossed the fire trenches and were swarming the walls. The NK was gone and Jon could have easily torched thousands and thousands of undead- instead without a 2nd thought he took off after the NK and the undead got into Winterfell.

And how many of the living would have been burnt to death if he’d flamed the dead swarming the walls?

The OP suggested that he failed to kill enough wights ‘for love of Dany’. Jon’s goal, as stated in the war council, was to get to the Night King.  

You’re second guessing his judgment in the chaos of battle but he correctly surmised that if they eliminated the NK the rest would be destroyed. That was his purpose.

[proserpina65]

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

I did expect her to help her people try to escape after the dead started rising.

Escape where?  Out of the crypt, where the Army of the Dead was overwhelming Winterfell?

This wasn't Sansa's best moment, no, nor Tyrion's, but to me, it appeared they were intending to try and defend others once they got past their paralyzing fear.

[Absurda]

There's been some discussion about the opening battle plan and tactics.  I came across this article and thought it interesting, so I figured I'd share:  Strategic Military Analysis of the Battle of Winterfell (slate.com)

[Bannon]

13 minutes ago, Bannon said:

She did a great job. Winterfell's population tripled in size, added thousands of horses, in the dead of winter, ans by the time the battle started, nobody that we saw was unable to fight due to malnutrition, lack of water, shelter, or disease. We have already seen in this universe that it is like Earth in that regard; in times of chaotic war, material deprivation and disease is as easily  a deadly threat as combat, if not more so. Sansa delegated and managed so as to largely allow the other military leaders to concentrate on managing the combat. She was rather like the Union Army's  magnificent Quartermaster General Meigs, in the American Civil War, who although not known well by non-experts, may have been as important to ultimate victory as U.S. Grant.

Large scale warfare is logistics, through and through, even if it is visually and emotionally boring.

To add on, and in contrast, think of Stannis' ultimate failure. His army starved and froze in his rush to engage the Boltons, resulting in large scale desertion, vulnerability to guerrila attack, and sickness among his troops. He was thoroughly defeated logistically, which is what made his crushing tactical and strategic defeat at the hands of the Boltons so utterly predictable.

[MVFrostsMyPie]

Honestly, I might pull a Sansa and Tyrion if I was in that situation. Yeah, wouldn't we all like to think if we were in that position, we'd bust out our dragon glass and start stabbing effectively in all the right places to kill a... dead person, but 1) I'd be scared shitless, unprepared and shocked, and 2) I'd assume I'm going to die anyway and there's no hope, so do I want to spend a little more time hiding and sharing a moment with someone I have a very complicated but respected history with, or throw myself out there and hope I kill maybe.... 1 of my dead relatives before 3 more jump on me? 

[izabella]

1 hour ago, screamin said:

Except she didn't. After panicking and hiding - which I agree was not her finest moment, though it's to be noted that Tyrion (who HAS actual battle experience) did exactly the same thing - she pulled out a dagger first and wordlessly agreed with Tyrion to charge out and fight instead of waiting in hiding for either rescue or death.

There was apparently a scene of Tyrion and her taking on a wight together which was cut for time. https://twitter.com/StarkyRed/status/1122883459754745856

 It WAS filmed though, so there won't be subsequent scenes of other characters rebuking her for not fighting.

I really, really wish they hadn't cut those few seconds.  It made no sense that she pulled the dagger out and then didn't use it, especially since she DID and killed a wight.  This should be a sticky on this thread.

[proserpina65]

1 hour ago, Absurda said:

Sansa knows best in every situation

I have never seen this attitude from Sansa.  I've seen her irritated that Jon didn't talk to her and ask her opinion, but not because she thought she knew best.  Only because she thought she might have something to add.  He did blindside her with things.

I wish she and Tyrion had immediately tried to kill the wights in the crypt, but she's not a fighter and was scared shitless, just like most of us would've been.  That either of them managed to come out from behind that (presumably empty) tomb shows more courage than I probably possess.

1 hour ago, Absurda said:

All that said, when she pointed out to Tyrion that his loyalty to the dragon queen would be a problem between them, I didn't get the feeling that she was throwing shade on anyone.  Just being truthful and reflective.  In the moment, I thought Missendei's comeback to her was overly harsh. 

Of course, Missendei's overall message (this woman is fighting and potentially dying for the North, doesn't that earn some loyalty from you?) is worth Sansa hearing.  She doesn't have to give up on an independent North, but she could at least see Dany is not the enemy.

This, I agree with, however.

[taanja]

On 4/29/2019 at 5:36 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

I was trying to figure out why Melisandre was able to light all the Dothraki swords so quickly but it seemed to take forever for her to light some flammable wood.

She was losing her magic?

[LadyChaos]

50 minutes ago, Bali said:

I think Sansa is smart. She knows Cersei- the real Cersei. Hopefully, the will listen to her next week. She has a resting bitch face that people don't like. She didn't start this whole thing- she was a victim of LF as much as anyone on this show. She was a romantic child who essentially got sold as a sex slave (wife) to a skin cutting psychopath. She earned her right to be bitter. But all of this lead her to be the woman who knows that handing over trust blindly is just plain stupid.

Why?  I wouldn't listen to her; and I, unlike Jon or Dany, am very well aware of what she went through.  Little Finger was always dubious and creepy, but he flattered her, so she trusted him.  Not only that, but she was unsure if she should go with him, so to make sure she did, he framed her as an accomplice to Joffery's murder and made sure she knew it so she had to go with him.... BUT TRUSTED HIM ANYWAY.  She watched him murder her Aunt in front of her after telling Lysa he only ever loved Caitlyn, and still trusted him and covered for him because ...what saved her, or protected him because she was scared for herself? 

Honestly, I will say one thing, out of all people in LF life, he was likely most himself with Sansa in hopes to use his honestly to manipulate her into playing the game with him.  Because of that, she knew exactly what kind of person LF was, and still trusted him.  He also gave her a choice to not marry Ramsey, and she walked into that willingly, she wasn't sold.  She just didn't know what a psychopath Ramsey was. And I don't think she for one second, believed that Littlefinger didn't know what kind of man Ramsey was, but after the BotB, she let LF stick around and get back into her head. KNOWING FULL WELL WHAT HE WAS!

I wouldn't listen to any advice Sansa has about anyone.  When she does try to give advice, she usually does it in a snide way, without actually offering a solution.  So I sincerely hope she stays North, and out of the way, and let people who actually are helpful and have experience with the real Cersei and know her, honestly, alot better and longer, and have more experience playing than game than Sansa.  Like Varys.

[proserpina65]

12 minutes ago, Absurda said:

There's been some discussion about the opening battle plan and tactics.  I came across this article and thought it interesting, so I figured I'd share:  Strategic Military Analysis of the Battle of Winterfell (slate.com)

Thanks for posting that.  I know little about military strategy or tactics, so it was quite fascinating.  And more than a little amusing, the way the author treated it like a real battle.

[MadameKillerB]

Remember when Melisandre said she was going to Volantis and then back cuz she knew she was meant to die there?  What the heck did she go to Volantis for? Did she need to level up? Did she need clearer info that she needed to push Arya toward her destiny?

[proserpina65]

3 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

I wouldn't listen to any advice Sansa has about anyone.

Jon should've listened to what she said about Ramsey.

[Oscirus]

No idea what tyrion and Sansa were supposed to do with Daggers but from what I seen they were def sticking, moving and gathering. If they were just hiding they could've easily stayed in their hiding spot, it's not like they were being noticed. 

[LadyChaos]

23 minutes ago, Bannon said:

She did a great job. Winterfell's population tripled in size, added thousands of horses, in the dead of winter, ans by the time the battle started, nobody that we saw was unable to fight due to malnutrition, lack of water, shelter, or disease. We have already seen in this universe that it is like Earth in that regard; in times of chaotic war, material deprivation and disease is as easily  a deadly threat as combat, if not more so. Sansa delegated and managed so as to largely allow the other military leaders to concentrate on managing the combat. She was rather like the Union Army's  magnificent Quartermaster General Meigs, in the American Civil War, who although not known well by non-experts, may have been as important to ultimate victory as U.S. Grant.

Large scale warfare is logistics, through and through, even if it is visually and emotionally boring.

Thats alot of assumptions from one scene of her asking how much food they had and if the armor was made right. 

10 minutes ago, Bannon said:

To add on, and in contrast, think of Stannis' ultimate failure. His army starved and froze in his rush to engage the Boltons, resulting in large scale desertion, vulnerability to guerrila attack, and sickness among his troops. He was thoroughly defeated logistically, which is what made his crushing tactical and strategic defeat at the hands of the Boltons so utterly predictable.

Stannis's army was not made for fighting in the North, and they were unfamiliar with the terrainne, which Ramsey pointed out as why it was so easy to get 20 who were used to the cold and the land, into their camp. Sansa also only had a fraction of the amount of people to care of, and most of whom, like the Wildlings, or great houses either brought food with them or were fending for themselves. The Wildlings were used to fairing in far worse conditions in tents.

[LadyChaos]

2 minutes ago, proserpina65 said:

Jon should've listened to what she said about Ramsey.

Why? She didn't say anything useful.

He even told her that if she had useful advice he would hear it.

She responded with 'I don't know, just don't do what he wants.'

That's not helpful. Thats the opposite of help.

Team building 101: Don't bring up a problem, if you don't have a viable solution.

[DarkRaichu]

21 minutes ago, Absurda said:

There's been some discussion about the opening battle plan and tactics.  I came across this article and thought it interesting, so I figured I'd share:  Strategic Military Analysis of the Battle of Winterfell (slate.com)

Agreed with article.  The use of cavalry as opening attack against unknown / unseen enemy was dumb.  They should have learned from Stannis (vs wildlings in front of the wall) or Littlefinger (Kingths of Vale) on how to use cavalry to cut / attack from the side/flank.

Also, who the heck put trebuchets at the front of the line???  Trebuchets have range and area of attack (ie can kill a lot per shot), so it should have been put further back, like behind Unsullied lines.

The enemy's strength was number.  Jon, Dany, etc should have used their tools to kill as many ice zombies possible before they were in range to engage the infantry units

Just proof that whoever in charge were not smart tacticians

Edited April 30, 2019 by DarkRaichu

[Quark]

A dark (literally), but great episode.

Arya was great, but I thought Mellisandre was the Queen of the episode. Fighting the good fight and then dying like that at the end? Proper badass.

Also, I'm surprised no one complained about the cold. I was at least expecting something from Clegane.

Edited April 30, 2019 by Quark

[DarkRaichu]

17 minutes ago, MadameKillerB said:

Remember when Melisandre said she was going to Volantis and then back cuz she knew she was meant to die there?  What the heck did she go to Volantis for? Did she need to level up? Did she need clearer info that she needed to push Arya toward her destiny?

Also, how did she come from the North, galloping slowly IN FRONT OF the ice zombies?  I thought the area between the wall and Winterfell were full of wights?  She left Winterfell through the south entrance, shouldn't she come back the same way???

Is this 1 of those nonsensical things I suppose to ignore just because it looks cool on screen ?

Edited April 30, 2019 by DarkRaichu

[The Companion]

1 hour ago, MissLucas said:

As has been said before - logistics are boring but here goes.

Sansa knew how much food they had when Jon returned - she said that she had made sure the provisions would last them over winter. She did complain about the additional number of people and animals but that's what every good quartermaster does.

Nobody starved to death in Winterfell, even after the arrival of additional forces - who may or may not have brought along their own provisions (don't get me started on the dragons again).

We see Davos handing out soup to refugees. Someone had to think of setting up that makeshift kitchen in the courtyard, ordering people to prepare soup and bake all the loaves of bread we saw on shelves in the background. 

Someone had to decide where to put (and feed) all the people flocking into Winterfell that were not refugees but teams helping to prepare for the siege, where to put the make-shift smithy for Gendry (Winterfell had a smithy but I think he got additional workspace), where to store the dragonglass etc. The whole courtyard of Winterfell was transformed and someone had to make sure the different work-forces within the courtyard would not collide. Basically all the pesky background logistics  required to get the castle siege-ready would fall under her supervision.

She also had to make sure that Daenerys and her entourage got fitting quarters. And did I mention that Arya got a nifty new coat, bespoke for a leftie?

Most of that stuff is boring as hell to watch - that's why we did not see it. But since Winterfell did not fall into disarray and collapse under the number of people suddenly assembling within its walls and furthermore was siege-ready just before the NK arrived I'd say she did her job. 

Almost forgot: she also had to make sure there was someone at the ready to push Bran to wherever he wanted to sit and creepily stare into the void.

 

41 minutes ago, Bannon said:

She did a great job. Winterfell's population tripled in size, added thousands of horses, in the dead of winter, ans by the time the battle started, nobody that we saw was unable to fight due to malnutrition, lack of water, shelter, or disease. We have already seen in this universe that it is like Earth in that regard; in times of chaotic war, material deprivation and disease is as easily  a deadly threat as combat, if not more so. Sansa delegated and managed so as to largely allow the other military leaders to concentrate on managing the combat. She was rather like the Union Army's  magnificent Quartermaster General Meigs, in the American Civil War, who although not known well by non-experts, may have been as important to ultimate victory as U.S. Grant.

Large scale warfare is logistics, through and through, even if it is visually and emotionally boring.

29 minutes ago, Bannon said:

To add on, and in contrast, think of Stannis' ultimate failure. His army starved and froze in his rush to engage the Boltons, resulting in large scale desertion, vulnerability to guerrila attack, and sickness among his troops. He was thoroughly defeated logistically, which is what made his crushing tactical and strategic defeat at the hands of the Boltons so utterly predictable.

I agree with all of this. Contrast the state of Winterfell with other castles we have seen in this show. Winterfell was running smoothly and it has been well established that Sansa took on that role. As I mentioned last week, she would have also prepared for the unlikely event of a siege (which we have seen multiple times in this show, but which seems unlikely from the Night King). We literally saw how important grain supplies were last season when Cersei sent troops for grain in addition to gold. 

She would be responsible for balancing the books, coordinating and managing all matters of the castle including lodging, food, ensuring care of the animals, etc. It isn't a fun watch, but it is clearly getting done because Winterfell was a machine. The forges were running, the animals were kept, people were being given food and battle stations, etc. 

[Cyranetta]

1) The drums at the beginning subtly amped up the tension.

2) The pyro work was fantastic all the way through

3) It seemed to me that the NK was more human-appearing after he'd been flambéed - the skin was smoother and the color less icy-blue.

[MadameKillerB]

I think she runs a tight ship. (I am a diehard fan, tho) I do nitpick that there were no sleeping pallets or chairs or food or blankets down in the crypt. Thinking of supplies in case the battle lasted a long time (they had no way of knowing they'd just be completely overrun so quickly).

[MissLucas]

13 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Is this 1 of those nonsensical things I suppose to ignore just because it looks cool on screen ?

I think the answer to that is 'Yes, it is'. The script probably read MELISANDRE makes badass entry out of the dark.

[Bannon]

50 minutes ago, DarkRaichu said:

Agreed with article.  The use of cavalry as opening attack against unknown / unseen enemy was dumb.  They should have learned from Stannis (vs wildlings in front of the wall) or Littlefinger (Kingths of Vale) on how to use cavalry to cut / attack from the side/flank.

Also, who the heck put trebuchets at the front of the line???  Trebuchets have range and area of attack (ie can kill a lot per shot), so it should have been put further back, like behind Unsullied lines.

The enemy's strength was number.  Jon, Dany, etc should have used their tools to kill as many ice zombies possible before they were in range to engage the infantry units

Just proof that whoever in charge were not smart tacticians

The article clearly states that there was no likely  way to employ cavalry usefully against an army immune to panic, supported by air power which could easily destroy cavalry in the open, especially since your air power is vulnerable to antiaircraft weapons that the enemy has. Antiaircraft weapons that you do not possess.

I thought the observation that the NK's forces, not needing any food or water, was ideally suited to lay siege, was interesting. Perhaps the NK had some unexplained urgency to destroy Bran, or was just overly confident.

Edited April 30, 2019 by Bannon

[Blakeston]

Re: what Sansa should have done in the crypt:

I think it would have been possible for her to say something inspiring. 

Maybe something about how, if the worst happens, it will fall on them to recreate civilization and keep the traditions of the North alive, so they need to stay strong and remember who they are. And maybe something about how many times before the Northerners had beaten the odds, and they can do it again.

That said, the writers were clearly choosing a different direction (Sansa and Tyrion struggling with the realization that their smarts don't make them good warriors), so I can see why they didn't go with that.

Regarding her leadership at Winterfell, I certainly don't need to see a montage of her balancing books and supervising food deliveries, but it would have been nice to get a line or two about what she's accomplished.

[Constantinople]

16 minutes ago, Bannon said:

I thought the observation that the NK's forces, not needing any food or water, was ideally suited to lay siege, was interesting. Perhaps the NK had some unexplained urgency to destroy Bran, or was just overly confident.

It's been thousands of years since the Night King last got a chance to play, and it 7 seasons just to get the Army of the Dead to the Wall

He was probably sick of waiting.

[Bannon]

1 hour ago, LadyChaos said:

Thats alot of assumptions from one scene of her asking how much food they had and if the armor was made right. 

Stannis's army was not made for fighting in the North, and they were unfamiliar with the terrainne, which Ramsey pointed out as why it was so easy to get 20 who were used to the cold and the land, into their camp. Sansa also only had a fraction of the amount of people to care of, and most of whom, like the Wildlings, or great houses either brought food with them or were fending for themselves. The Wildlings were used to fairing in far worse conditions in tents.

When your army lacks familiarity with the terrain, logistical performance becomes even more critical. Also, are you really sure that Stannis' forces entailed more people than the northeners, wildlings, Dothraki, and Unsullied, at Winterfell, the latter two groups being thoroughly unfamiliar with the north?

[Clanstarling]

2 hours ago, Efzee said:

Sansa should have said the Queen/Queen Danaerys (in case she'd be worried he thought her reference was to Cersei) since the KitN bent the knee to Dany. Instead, she used "dragon queen", which is the moniker Dany's enemies (including Cersei) use. Even if she'd simply said Danaerys it would have come across better than "dragon queen", although still lacking respect considering Jon accepted Dany as their queen.

I'm sure I'd be parsing my words carefully and be sure to give propers to someone I didn't care for when I was waiting to what I was pretty sure would be a certain and terrible death. Because politeness really matters at that point.

1 hour ago, taanja said:

She was losing her magic? 

I've been thinking about that. I may be wrong (as I've said before, I don't really catalog all the lore), but from what I recall, most of the things that have been fired up by the LotL magic were metal and/or dragonglass (if that's what the Dothraki scythes were made of). Maybe the magic works better and faster with metal/glass elements than wood and such.

9 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

Regarding her leadership at Winterfell, I certainly don't need to see a montage of her balancing books and supervising food deliveries, but it would have been nice to get a line or two about what she's accomplished.

Which we did have with her discussing how she'd gathered the supplies. Yes, she was complaining that she didn't have enough - but preparing the castle, its stores, and gathering the bannermen and families is a pretty large accomplishment and we did hear and see what she had done.

I've never been a fan of Sansa in particular, but I am a logistics person and I understand how much of an accomplishment that is - and how seldom anyone sees it as such.

Edited April 30, 2019 by Clanstarling

[Bryce Lynch]

3 hours ago, sistermagpie said:

Jon seems like the hero so that's an expectation, but she's been training as an assassin for years etc. It's not as subversion on the level of Sam killing him. It's really just substituting stealth assassin for face-to-face heroic combat. And everything about the battle, imo, sets that up because the battle was the open combat and they were overmatched every time. Jon and Theon both try it and easily get beaten.

Jon's prime directive has always been protecting the people rather than personal love, whether or not he cares about the person. I don't think he'd ever relate to Danny as someone he needed to rush to if they fell during a battle. (At least, no more than he would another Night Watch brother or, say, Ned Stark.) His original relationship with Dany was based on his needing her help for protection, after all.

He would never have made the choice Rob did about his wife, for instance.

I don't think she was killing herself so much as letting herself die. The LoL was finished with her so she went to him. 

Wasn't the contrivance the point? That everything was set in place for Arya to succeed? The fact that it was Arya herself isn't any more contrived than Jon--she'd been actively training for this mission for years just as he'd been actively warning against the NK for years, so they're pretty even there.

I'm not so sure they'd prefer a warrior woman as an actual leader. Grocery shopping for thousands of refugees is a bitch and it's going to cause a lot more unrest in the land when you fail at things like that than not being the biggest badass in the legend. 

I actually think people will probably have very good thoughts about Sansa when this is over. They'll remember that she welcomed everyone within the walls and arranged for them to be fed. And I don't think they'd resent that she was just there among them in the crypt when the dead broke out. I wouldn't be surprised if they felt doubly bad for her since it was her relatives attacking. If that kind of courage is so central to their identity they probably wouldn't complain a young woman didn't save them when they themselves weren't fighting either.

I suspect that's actually not what she was realistically doing--that's what we saw her doing because administrative stuff is boring to watch. Self-defense class would have been fine too, but I don't think it would have made that much of a difference. She probably would still have done the same thing: waited, freaked out, gotten herself together and go out with a knife and hope for the best.

Me neither. I took Missandei's comments to be something she was saying out of stress and anxiety and just general impatience with anybody talking about whether it mattered who was ruling at this point, as well as her instinctive loyalty to Dany over Sansa. A Northern person might have said the same thing in reverse if they'd happen to overhear her saying something about how the North was being troublesome about this stuff.

Everyone was calm. I don't think Sansa did anything particularly good in the crypts that we saw, but I don't think she was called on to do anything either. Tyrion has some hope that he could make a difference. Sansa didn't think she could. Nobody in the crypt needed her down there. She was just another person sitting there hoping not to die. Her being there meant things were going pear shaped. Her presence spoke louder than any speech she might have tried to make and nobody was going to be cheered up by it.

But there was nowhere for them to get away. By coming out of their hiding place with knives I don't think there's anything else they could be doing than going out to fight. 

I don't think the people will be negative towards Sansa.  But, if she gives lip to the real heroes of the battle like Dany, Jon and, if it came up, Arya, I think they will tell her to shut up.

I think Sansa Lanister-Bolton referring to Daenrys as "the Dragon Queen" was somewhat derogatory and disrespectful. 

"Our Queen" or at least "the Queen" would be more appropriate, though I prefer, Daenerys Stormborn of House Targaryen, First of Her Name, Queen of the Andals, the Rhoynar and the First Men, Queen of Meereen, Khaleesi of the Great Grass Sea, Protector of the Realm, Regent of the Seven Kingdoms, the Unburnt, Breaker of Chains and Mother of Dragons.

[Constantinople]

The Night King can't be killed by fire

Daenerys can't be killed by fire

Just sayin'

[WatchrTina]

18 hours ago, LittleIggy said:

Have to give props to the people who created the Night King’s make-up, costume, etc. He was really visually impressive.

That moment when he looks down at dying Theon -- that was a super creepy image.  Those glowing blue eyes staring down at you!

[paigow]

15 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

The Night King can't be killed by fire

Daenerys can't be killed by fire

Just sayin'

You sayin Arya killed another Targaryen with a valid claim ticket for the throne???? 😉

[LadyChaos]

56 minutes ago, Bannon said:

When your army lacks familiarity with the terrain, logistical performance becomes even more critical. Also, are you really sure that Stannis' forces entailed more people than the northeners, wildlings, Dothraki, and Unsullied, at Winterfell, the latter two groups being thoroughly unfamiliar with the north?

No, Im saying that Stannis had more men than the 50 people from Bear island, the 2000 wildlings, and what was left of Winterfell people.  

As she said 'How am I supposed to feed Dothraki, unsullied, and 2 dragons?' One would assume that she did not prepare for them even though she knew it was possible they would come when Jon left to meet Danerys. Since its a 2 month journey (according to show) from KL to Winterfell, I likely took him about that time to get to dragonstone, then the weeks he was there before traveling back to Eastwatch to get a WW, then bend the knee, then travel to KL, then back to Winterfell.  One could say she had at least 6 months to prepare for them......and yet didn't.

[LadyChaos]

33 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I think Sansa Lanister-Bolton referring to Daenrys as "the Dragon Queen" was somewhat derogatory and disrespectful. 

Im honestly surprised that outside of the Little Bear (may she rest in peace) no one has brought into question where Sansa's loyalties lie.  I mean all those people stressing about Danerys and Tyrion....no one mentions that Sansa used to be married to Tyrion, and then married a usurper in the North, Bolton.....

[catrice2]

31 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

The Night King can't be killed by fire

Daenerys can't be killed by fire

Just sayin'

So in other words Jon was not being heroic facing down the dragon because he was not going to be able to burn him? I guess he could have trampled him or swatted him...