S08.E03: The Long Night

[VCRTracking]

I suddenly realize I didn't get the charge out of the Battle of Winterfell I expected because it's not as fun seeing all the characters we've watched and loved these past couple of years fighting for their lives in a hopeless situation where we're afraid most of them will die. It's actually more fun seeing all of them together kicking ass.

Edited April 29, 2019 by VCRTracking

[Kanner]

2 hours ago, millennium said:

We all like to believe we'll be heroes when the hour of wolves is upon us,  but it is not in everyone's nature.   It doesn't make you less of a person, just human.

You seemed to have cut my point. So I will put it here with the sentence before. You only quoted the last sentence. So as you see I clearly acknowledge and am ok with the human reaction. 

just to be clear, my issue is not that she gave into fear and didn’t try to help her people emotionally or physically. It’s that she considers herself the best leader and then does this. 

Plus I later admit that if she acknowledges her giving into fear I would admire that. 

[BooBear]

2 minutes ago, SourK said:

Straight-up: part of my less-than-optimal enjoyment of this episode is that I didn't understand the plan and therefore couldn't tell if it was going well or not at any given time.

I got the plan from the behind the scenes thing they played. But it is going to bother me just how poor the plan was. If Dany was worried about the dragons getting hit she should have planned for that. Either targeted the white walkers (who had the spears) early on or found a way to put armor on the dragons / put the dragons under armor tent or shield.  The random firing  at rank and file dead was insane.  They should have had a trap for the night king when he came for Bran. They should have targeted the white walkers.  Plus they didn't even know if the dragon fire would work and doh, it didn't.  The fact that they didn't consider the crypts being dangerous is mind boggling.  But they absolutely should not have given the night king one single additional body for the army of the dead. 

But I still liked the episode. Just makes me concerned that Dany and Jon do not seem very bright on how to win a battle.

[Drogo]

52 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

Neither Sam nor Davos did anything to improve their subpar skills with weaponry

Davos was perfectly willing to wield a sword when the situation called for it. 

[sistermagpie]

13 minutes ago, SourK said:

I think Theon is an interesting character, and I feel pity for him because of the way he was tortured -- no one deserves that no matter what they've done. But he also murdered two innocent children just to save face and there's nothing that's going to tip the scales back in the other direction for me and make him a good man.

He's a bad man who suffered a lot, and that makes him complicated... but not good. At least not for me.

I took Bran as saying he was dying as a good man, not that he had made up for things he did in the past, exactly. That is, he wasn't "a good man all along" or "a good man underneath" even when he killed the boys and took over Winterfell, he was a good man now because he was honestly trying to atone for what he did and do a good thing for no other reason than that.

Same thing with Jaime, really. It seems like part of his nasty attitude in the past was thinking that he was bad so there was no point in trying to do the right thing, that he had the name so might as well live up to it etc. But he could still be a good man right now and in the future. Anyone can. Even if they can't undo being a bad person yesterday.

[Sakura12]

53 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

Dany wanted to rule the North and asked for Jon to bend the knee for her help. That's how they became subjects rather than allies. Even if we consider Jon a sucky leader for doing it, it's still the North giving up independence for Dany's help beforehand and being happy about it out of gratitude afterward. With Dany not considering giving them independence out of gratitude or preferring an alliance. 

Dany agreed to help without Jon bending the knee. So she was willing to help save the realm over ruling the North. Jon bent the knee later after she came to rescue his group. 

[millennium]

9 minutes ago, Kanner said:

You seemed to have cut my point. So I will put it here with the sentence before. You only quoted the last sentence. So as you see I clearly acknowledge and am ok with the human reaction. 

just to be clear, my issue is not that she gave into fear and didn’t try to help her people emotionally or physically. It’s that she considers herself the best leader and then does this. 

Plus I later admit that if she acknowledges her giving into fear I would admire that. 

And that is what I was saying: many of us have this image of ourselves, that we will be able to make the stand -- that we will be able to answer the call, as dear Lyanna said.   We hope we will be fearless, as Sansa doubtless did, as the best leader ideally would be, but human frailties have a way of undercutting our expectations of others and of ourselves, often at the worst times.

[WaltersHair]

I'm going to ask a dumb question. Did the NK bring Winter with him? Is that why the wind and snow started gusting, blinding the fighters and dragons?

[Law Mom]

27 minutes ago, Bryndza said:

Not that I’ll really miss the character of Beric, but I loved his voice! I could listen to him all day.

That's how I felt about Roose Bolton. What a voice!

[Lady S.]

18 hours ago, Andromeda said:

Am I wrong to wish Sansa would fall in love with Tyrion? I loved their moment together.

That was romantic music playing over the hand kiss scene, wasn't it? 

The crypt oversight was very unfortunate planning but I don't see what more Jon/Dany could do about the WWs. They couldn't force the Night King and his bros to come out before he felt like it, so frying the undead hordes was the most they could do in the meantime. 

5 minutes ago, sistermagpie said:

I took Bran as saying he was dying as a good man, not that he had made up for things he did in the past, exactly. That is, he wasn't "a good man all along" or "a good man underneath" even when he killed the boys and took over Winterfell, he was a good man now because he was honestly trying to atone for what he did and do a good thing for no other reason than that.

Same thing with Jaime, really. It seems like part of his nasty attitude in the past was thinking that he was bad so there was no point in trying to do the right thing, that he had the name so might as well live up to it etc. But he could still be a good man right now and in the future. Anyone can. Even if they can't undo being a bad person yesterday.

It's as Brother Ian McShane told Sandor "it's never too late to come back". Like it or not redemption through later heroism has been a running theme of the show between Jaime, Jorah, Theon, Sandor, and Melly. (Though Theon and Sandor have shown a hell of a lot more remorse than Jaime ever has.)

[catrice2]

Lyanna!!!

[arty]

20 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

As for Sansa, yeah, last night she sucked. And I say this as a fan. But oddly that might have bonded her more to Tyrion, who also kind of cowered and ducked as well. I saw them holding hands and exchanging glances while hiding terrified as an acknowledgement that "yeah, we both suck."

Didn't she and Tyrion run out to meet Death after she pulled out her dragon glass knife, and he kissed her hand (goodbye)? Like the poster upthread, I, too, thought of Butch and Sundance in that moment.

Poor Sam keeps getting dragged on nearly every thread for being afraid. Sandor was afraid. Theon was afraid at the end. I'm guessing that all of our beloved characters were afraid at some point during the battle. But, none of them pulled a Janos Slynt at the Battle of Castle Black. I keep thinking of what Robb told Talisa,"I asked [my father] how a man can be brave if he is afraid. He told me that's the only time a man can be brave." Not everyone can have the tenacity and courage of Arya or Lyanna Mormont, but I wouldn't say that they sucked either. JMO.  

[VCRTracking]

1 minute ago, arty said:

Poor Sam keeps getting dragged on nearly every thread for being afraid. Sandor was afraid. Theon was afraid at the end. I'm guessing that all of our beloved characters were afraid at some point during the battle. But, none of them pulled a Janos Slynt at the Battle of Castle Black. I keep thinking of what Robb told Talisa,"I asked [my father] how a man can be brave if he is afraid. He told me that's the only time a man can be brave." Not everyone can have the tenacity and courage of Arya or Lyanna Mormont, but I wouldn't say that they sucked either. JMO.  

The best Jon moment for me is when he's rushing over to get to Bran and he sees Sam in trouble and he's clearly torn about what to do. Does he save Sam and risk Bran? Let Sam die to save his brother(technically cousin)?

[arty]

1 minute ago, VCRTracking said:

The best Jon moment for me is when he's rushing over to get to Bran and he sees Sam in trouble and he's clearly torn about what to do. Does he save Sam and risk Bran? Let Sam die to save his brother(technically cousin)?

Yeah, that was an interesting one. And I was surprised that he actually left Sam to his fate, whatever that might be. But, thinking about it some, it seems Jon was fairly single-minded in the battle. Protect Bran. Yes, he went off the plan after Dany entered the fray, but even then, he went after the Night King, leaving Dany and Drogon on their own, with her tacit approval.

[Growsonwalls]

1 minute ago, arty said:

Didn't she and Tyrion run out to meet Death after she pulled out her dragon glass knife, and he kissed her hand (goodbye)? Like the poster upthread, I, too, thought of Butch and Sundance in that moment.

Poor Sam keeps getting dragged on nearly every thread for being afraid. Sandor was afraid. Theon was afraid at the end. I'm guessing that all of our beloved characters were afraid at some point during the battle. But, none of them pulled a Janos Slynt at the Battle of Castle Black. I keep thinking of what Robb told Talisa,"I asked [my father] how a man can be brave if he is afraid. He told me that's the only time a man can be brave." Not everyone can have the tenacity and courage of Arya or Lyanna Mormont, but I wouldn't say that they sucked either. JMO.  

Hmm I have to rewatch. It was sensory overload. But my feeling was that Sansa cowering in the crypt while people she loved were out there fighting and dying for Winterfell was not her best moment. 

And I wouldn't say Theon was afraid at the end. He showed incredible tenacity throughout the episode and went to his certain death with his head held high. I think Bran-bot saying he was a "good man" wasn't exactly to forgive him for what he did in the past, but to acknowledge how hard Theon had fought for Bran. 

I think Dany even though she made some tactical mistakes also showed incredible tenacity. As did in her weird way Melisandre. 

[UNOSEZ]

4 hours ago, Bali said:

In the end, I want Arya to kill her and for the last words she hears to be, "The North remembers."

I want her to tell her that.. Also she's Arya Stark.. And she's pregnant with Robert's Grandchild... I'd punch a puppy to see cersei's face as she dies knowing the starks and baratheon's were living on

[Macbeth]

57 minutes ago, SourK said:

I don't have a problem with Sansa disliking Dany, but I agree that there's a sharp contrast between that early battle and this one. On the one hand, we had a situation where Cersei was getting drunk and ignoring everyone (and making fun of Sansa for being such a goody-goody) while Sansa tried to comfort the servants and get everyone to pray together. I expected her to do something like that this time, especially since she's the lady of Winterfell, but instead she literally said nothing and turned away from everyone.

Full disclosure: Sansa is my favourite character who's not dead and I'm hoping she gets a good ending, but this stuff makes me worry for her. Especially because there have been other comparisons between her and Cersei. So, to see a throwback to that early scene that originally demonstrated how she was kinder than Cersei and have it harshly reversed like that... yeah, I'm worried.

I view this differently. When she entered the crypt she tried to find something to say, but what could be said. She would only be down there if the fighting was going very badly. 

The lessons Cersei gave Sansa during the Battle of Blackwater was the most useful advice Cersei ever gave anyone on the show. Singing songs and saying prayers is avoiding the impending reality. If they lost the war most of the women would be raped and/or killed. 

Sansa acknowledged that the most heroic thing was to face the truth. They couldn't do anything up there.  That's why they were in the crypt. Up there they would have been a liability. 

And there were no guards or weapons in the crypt as every able person needed to be on the battlefield. And all weapons needed to be made available for the fighters. 

Sansa got her weapon from Arya who didn't want to leave her sister unarmed.  

Sansa didn't know how to use her weapon. But after her initial fright, when she gathered her courage, to get out of her safe hiding place and join the others. 

Edited April 29, 2019 by Macbeth

[arty]

5 minutes ago, Growsonwalls said:

Hmm I have to rewatch. It was sensory overload. But my feeling was that Sansa cowering in the crypt while people she loved were out there fighting and dying for Winterfell was not her best moment. 

I could very well have imagined the whole thing; sensory overload is right! I take your point regarding Sansa. I wish she had done more, too, but I can't figure out what that could have been given her nonexistent martial skill set.

Oh, I agree that Theon, Dany and Melisandre and a whole host of others were tenacious. I just gave Arya and Lyanna M as examples. 

8 minutes ago, UNOSEZ said:

I want her to tell her that.. Also she's Arya Stark.. And she's pregnant with Robert's Grandchild...

This made me laugh! Never gonna happen, but I would so love it if it did.

[MrsRafaelBarba]

On 4/29/2019 at 3:31 AM, Popples said:

Ghost was with the Dothraki siege and I just made myself sad.

Spoiler

Saw Ghost in next week's promo, he survived.

Whoo Boy, between Avengers:Endgame and this episode,  tough weekend.

House Mormont is no more.

Rest Well Lady and Jorah  Mormont , you both fought Bravely.

Theon Greyjoy came home to die, as a Stark.

A Tween girl slayed a Giant Wight, ending his rampage in Winterfell

A Teen girl slayed  The Night King, ending the War between the Living and the Dead.

R-E-S-P-E-C-T 

Edited April 30, 2019 by SilverStormm
spoiler tagged preview info

[Rebky]

The Girl is a fucking warrior!!!!

[Lady S.]

Updated. (I think I got everybody who survived and who died.)

[AnnaL]

6 hours ago, Bannon said:

I don't think the show ever fully recovered from Tywin Lamnister's death. I mean, it made sense dramatically, but once he was gone, the royal politics, which is what I enjoyed most from the beginning, were really diminished, from a storytelling perspective.

I am glad you mentioned this.

One of the things that made fall in love with ASOIAF was the detailed explanation of how politics work. Tywin was a bad father, he was a horrible person, an arrogant patriarch, but he was also a brilliant tactician. 

His ability to predict how to get or block every single player of the game was unbelievably smart and I did enjoy his war councils. He was two steps ahead of the game. 

If Tywin was alive I would be deadly scared for the Dany/Jon coalition. They would be in trouble then. As it stands and the fact that D&D have decided that this last season is going to be a huge fan service to please everybody, I am not that worried. I think the defeat of Cersei is a done deal and then we even get to have a happily ever after with Dany getting married to Jon. They are working on some fake friction between these two characters but in reality at the end they will be fine. 

[VCRTracking]

Sansa is Dwight D. Eisenhower in terms of logistical and organizational skill but with George S. Patton's vanity and Jon has Eisenhower's humility but Patton's single mindedness in battle.

Edited April 29, 2019 by VCRTracking

[Growsonwalls]

Just now, VCRTracking said:

Sansa is Dwight D. Eisenhower in terms of logistical and organizational skill but with George S. Patton's vanity and Jon has Eisenhower's humility but Patton's single mindedness in battle.

And Arya is William Sherman with her Total Warfare mentality.

[LadyChaos]

2 hours ago, Lady S. said:

(Funny how no one calls Sandor a coward or a bitch for having another PTSD attack. Is it really just that Beric/Arya snapped him out of it?)

Sandor was a seasoned soldier, but he has always had problems with fire.  Its what caused him to ultimately break faith with the Lannisters.  Sam had only witnessed, been a part of battles, less than a handful of times.  They both more, or less, lost their shit on the battle field.  Sandor snapped out of it, Sam didn't.  It makes neither of them a coward. As a veteran who has been to war, I can promise you that Ive seen seasoned soldiers and new soldier both loose their shit.  The only real difference is that on the field, Dondarrion knew to get Sandor to focus on something that would snap him out of it.  Sam didn't have that, just the opposite, he saw his last friend leave him to die.

2 hours ago, RedHawk said:

Speaking of volunteering to defend the crypt, as Tyrion pointed out, he did fight and survive of the Battle of the Blackwater. So why wasn't he given (or obtain for himself) a dragonglass weapon so he could at least attempt to defend himself and the others down there? Gotta protect that clever brain from being eaten by wights!

At the beginning of the episode, I totally expected Tyrion to say 'F this, Im going to fight' .....I was sorely disappointed that he stayed and got drunk instead.

2 hours ago, Constantinople said:

What would be a better use of Sansa's time? Getting Winterfell organized, or weapons training so she could perhaps go from terrible to really, really bad?

Should Gendry spent his time improving his weapons skills, or was his time more useful as a smith forging weapons for others?

Neither Sam nor Davos did anything to improve their subpar skills with weaponry

Sansa was literally ORDERED by that KitN that she seems to value so much, to pick up arms and learn to fight.  Instead she disobeyed an direct order from her King, and decided that she could do what she wanted.   I bet she was wishing down in that crypt that she knew what to do with that dragon glass dagger.

Gendry was ordered to forges and told make weapons, so thats what he did.

Sam had years of practice with swords, from the time of his childhood, like Jon. He sucks, and he is never getting better.

2 hours ago, proserpina65 said:

Plus Sansa is not a fighter, never has been.  Not all leaders are fighters.

But she was ORDERED TO LEARN, and ignored it.

1 hour ago, SourK said:

I'm confused about this, too, and it makes me wonder if maybe the prophecy is about doing something else? I don't know.

If the prophecy's about the prince that was promised and the Khal who mounts the world and unites all people into one kalessar are the same, Im inclined to think it is, than Arya is not the Prince that was Promised.  I honestly think that tptb will not touch on the prophecy again before the end of the series, I think we are meant to think that it was all a lie or doesn't matter.  However, if it is still in play, then the likely candidates are still Dany or Jon as they are the only ones actively trying to unit all people.  

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

Dany agreed to help without Jon bending the knee. So she was willing to help save the realm over ruling the North. Jon bent the knee later after she came to rescue his group. 

Honestly, Im really sick of this argument.  She literally agreed to help the North, and Jon told her he would bend the knee within less than 15 seconds of exchanged dialogue after an extremely traumatizing event.  Dany's world was shook from seeing the dead and seeing Viscerion die; and Jon nearly froze to death and was saved by the uncle he thought was dead.

There is still a valid reason for Jon bending the knee.  Yes, she agreed to help the North, but once she helped defeat the WW, she could literally turn to him and tell him to bend the knee or die(she has already done this before) , and if he didn't she would be in prime position take over Winterfell. Bending the knee was still the smarter option.  

50 minutes ago, arty said:

Didn't she and Tyrion run out to meet Death after she pulled out her dragon glass knife, and he kissed her hand (goodbye)? Like the poster upthread, I, too, thought of Butch and Sundance in that moment.

Poor Sam keeps getting dragged on nearly every thread for being afraid. Sandor was afraid. Theon was afraid at the end. I'm guessing that all of our beloved characters were afraid at some point during the battle. But, none of them pulled a Janos Slynt at the Battle of Castle Black. I keep thinking of what Robb told Talisa,"I asked [my father] how a man can be brave if he is afraid. He told me that's the only time a man can be brave." Not everyone can have the tenacity and courage of Arya or Lyanna Mormont, but I wouldn't say that they sucked either. JMO.  

No, they were trying to flee as careful as possible.  They literally ran past people they could have saved.

I don't think Sam is a coward, I think he felt that he should be on the battlefield because he has fought them before.  This fight was different than the others.  He had never been in a battle like this.  The battle at Castle Black was different because they were all human, and less enemies.  Sam went onto the battlefield, and when the fight started, and he saw they were going to lose, he had a mental breakdown.  It happens, it doesn't make him a coward, and Im really surprised at how much hate he is getting.  It actually makes me angry, all of you calling Sam a fat blubbering cowardess mess.  Would you all call a solder in battle in Iraq a coward if they had a mental breakdown on the field?  It happens, its a REAL THING! It happens to seasoned soldiers and new soldiers a like.  Sam has never been a very strong willed person but he has been strong when it mattered.  This was just to much for him to handle. 

For all of you yelling he was a liability and should have hidden in the crypts:  2 things

1) I bet you all would be the first people yelling he was coward if he did.

2) He was a man, of the Nights watch, who was an able bodied man.  Even though he sucks, he never would have been respected by anyone left standing if he 'hid with the women and children' like they all made fun of Janos Slynt for doing.

41 minutes ago, arty said:

Yeah, that was an interesting one. And I was surprised that he actually left Sam to his fate, whatever that might be. But, thinking about it some, it seems Jon was fairly single-minded in the battle. Protect Bran. Yes, he went off the plan after Dany entered the fray, but even then, he went after the Night King, leaving Dany and Drogon on their own, with her tacit approval.

It doesn't really surprise me at all.  Jon has always looked at the bigger picture.  Jon knew that to save everyone, he needed to get to Bran and kill the NK.  I think he learned from the BotB, it hurt but he knew that he needed to leave Sam to his fate....even if it was the preverbal straw to break Sam's back.

Edited April 29, 2019 by LadyChaos
bc wurds

[Lemuria]

2 hours ago, sunnyface said:

After all the screen time for those creatures and Still no explanation.

Very good article and I pretty much agree with it all.  I'm even more disappointed with the ep after sleeping on it.  What was that song?  "Is that all there is?"  

Visually, there were some great shots (though overall, I'm in the "It was too dark sometimes" camp), and it was very intense and at times, really creepy.  However, because the fighting was being done outside the castle, inside the castle, on top of the castle, underneath the castle, in the Godswood behind the castle and in the very snowy, dark, cloudy (and thus, impossible to see what was what and who was who) skies above the castle, it became, IMO, impossible to figure out what was happening and/or to keep track of where everybody was.

This became especially important in light of the assassination of the NK by no one.  Leaving aside for the moment that I still feel it played too much as a bait-and-switch, there was no real tension about would Arya make it or not, since the NK was not the only one who had no warning that Arya was coming.  The writers chose surprise over suspense, which for me was the wrong choice.

I still have a problem with its being Arya that killed the NK,  There really wasn't a set-up for it.  Even the article notes not one but three stare-offs between the NK and Jon.  We have the prophecy, the history etc etc.  And I love the "excuse:"  "Prophecy is unreliable."  Except that this is a universe and story created out of whole cloth by the Martin and D&D.  Which means prophecy is only unreliable because the writers want it to be.

Because I like Arya, I'd have no problem with her and Jon teaming up.  In addition to the NK, there were WW there.  There could have been the NK and Jon fighting, while Arya defended Bran from the WW.  Why were the WW just standing there?  They should all have been moving in on Bran.  And when the NK grabbed Arya, he should have just tossed her into a tree--or into the group of WW, who could have overwhelmed her.

Instead, the way it played out, the NK and the WW were all hit with the stupid stick this episode.

This show started with the threat of the NK, the WW and the Long Night.  That's essentially the first thing we saw.  It should have ended with that, too.  And the way it did end undercut how much of a threat the Others were supposed to be, IMO.

[ulkis]

2 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

For all of you yelling he was a liability and should have hidden in the crypts:  2 things

1) I bet you all would be the first people yelling he was coward if he did.

2) He was a man, of the Nights watch, who was an able bodied man.  Even though he sucks, he never would have been respected by anyone left standing if he 'hid with the women and children' like they all made fun of Janos Slynt for doing.

1) not me, haha. Jon even told him to go there. I don't think he's a coward. i do think he was a liability. I was just mostly annoyed because his plot armour so obviously protected him. I mean, it protected everyone, but at least the others were, I dunno, pushing away the wights. Sam was uninjured even though he was not fighting. Apparently only dragon glass can injure Sam as well.

[LadyChaos]

4 minutes ago, ulkis said:

1) not me, haha. Jon even told him to go there. I don't think he's a coward. i do think he was a liability. I was just mostly annoyed because his plot armour so obviously protected him. I mean, it protected everyone, but at least the others were, I dunno, pushing away the wights. Sam was uninjured even though he was not fighting. Apparently only dragon glass can injure Sam as well.

He was a liability on the battlefield, but he always has been.  Thats why he was given the post of helping Aemon at Castle black instead of fighting.  I wasn't targeting you in my rant, but others who have been pretty nasty about him.  No one shit on Sander for his breakdown on the field when faced with his fear and Sander would have stayed like that if Dondarrion hadn't been there to snap him out of it.  

[millennium]

46 minutes ago, arty said:

Yeah, that was an interesting one. And I was surprised that he actually left Sam to his fate, whatever that might be. 

Sam was urged to take refuge in the crypts.  He flatly refused.   You pays your money and you takes your choice, as the saying goes.  No one should have risked their neck to save Sam.

(Full disclosure: Sam annoys me.)

[MrsRafaelBarba]

Sam got Edd killed, his guard dropped to protect him.

Gave that Wight an opening to kill him.

[MissLucas]

7 hours ago, sunnyface said:

After all the screen time for those creatures and Still no explanation.

I overlooked this before - thanks for the link. It really sums up what has been frustrating about the show pretty much from the beginning. The presentation of magic in the show was always lacking to put it mildly. But from the very beginning we were told that the apocalypse is coming while humans in their stupidity are still focusing on their tiny squabbles. But at the same time those tiny squabbles were often more entertaining than the icy doom looming over them (s. Tywin).

Now the apocalypse is averted and the rest of the season/show will be dedicated to those squabbles. Sure, we have examples in recent history how the end of one giant war does not resolve all problems and can even turn into the beginning of the next war. But with three episodes left I don't see how they could do such a turn of events justice. 

[Absurda]

What's with all the pregnancy obsession?  Every time a female character has sex there's speculation that she must be pregnant.  Yes, the women get victimized a lot on this show, but one of the really great things is that the female characters are allowed to be just as badass, heroic, villainous and complicated as the male characters.  Which is really unique for this genre.  Constantly speculating on their reproductive status seems to imply having babies is the most important thing they could do.  Sure, in the past producing the "heir and a spare" was the whole point of women, but these characters have evolved way beyond that. /rant

Quote

And as Bran said all Theon's actions for better or worse led to him in this moment, ultimately dying an honorable death at his home.

Just as this was the culmination of Theon's and Jamie's arcs, this was also the culmination of Aray's.  Everything she learned was to give her the skills to assassinate the NK.

Quote

I agree, the old TER warned Bran about the fallacies of trying to change the course of things that needed to happen. "You think I wanted to sit here for 100 years watching the world from a distance as the roots grew through me?" 

This is what really bugs me about robo-Bran.  The old TER had emotion and vocal emphasis, he wasn't a complete no feeling robot.  Why is Bran? 

I don't see Sansa going south.  I see her staying in Winterfell and leading the rebuilding; it's destroyed, if Cercei wants to come North for a surprise attack or if Dany needs to retreat to the North, they need some defenses.

I really don't know, at this point, who will kill Cercei.  Seems too much to give Arya 2 major war ending kills.  But, you never know.

[One Tough Cookie]

OK: before I dissect the epi I  have just one question:  Where the hell is Bron?

[Constantinople]

42 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

Sansa was literally ORDERED by that KitN that she seems to value so much, to pick up arms and learn to fight.  Instead she disobeyed an direct order from her King, and decided that she could do what she wanted.  

I don't recall Jon ordering Sansa to pick up arms and learn to fight.

Nor do I recall Jon objecting to what Sansa did do, while he was away or after he returned

I think her actions met with his approval

[screamin]

1 hour ago, arty said:

I could very well have imagined the whole thing; sensory overload is right! I take your point regarding Sansa. I wish she had done more, too, but I can't figure out what that could have been given her nonexistent martial skill set.

I saw that she took out the dagger, and Tyrion wordlessly agreed they would go out and fight, and both started to get up; we next see them on their feet among other survivors. 

The writer of this article also saw it that way.

Quote

I loved every moment with Sansa and Tyrion in the crypts. Tyrion kissing Sansa’s hand before they jumped into the fight was moving.

I agree that she ignobly panicked when her ancestors starting bursting from their surprisingly shoddy tombs to kill everyone, and that was not her finest moment. She wasn't the only one in that episode, or even in that crypt, who did so. Tyrion, with actual battle experience, was hiding right next to her. Taking out the dagger and going out to fight with Tyrion instead of staying hidden was a fair recovery.

[Raachel2008]

1 hour ago, LadyChaos said:

Sandor was a seasoned soldier, but he has always had problems with fire.  Its what caused him to ultimately break faith with the Lannisters.  Sam had only witnessed, been a part of battles, less than a handful of times.  They both more, or less, lost their shit on the battle field.  Sandor snapped out of it, Sam didn't.  It makes neither of them a coward. As a veteran who has been to war, I can promise you that Ive seen seasoned soldiers and new soldier both loose their shit.  The only real difference is that on the field, Dondarrion knew to get Sandor to focus on something that would snap him out of it.  Sam didn't have that, just the opposite, he saw his last friend leave him to die.

I don't think the comparison should really be thiss one. Sandor is a fighter, he coud, for all we know, have snapped  out of it in two seconds. Sam, on the other  hand, was *always* a liability. He shoudd  have stayed in the crypts and helped defend the people there.

We all know that Sam was never going to die, but it was annoying watching him not dying. He simply didn't have the skills  to survive than long once the WW entered Winterfell. I can - with some efffort - see why Brienne and Jaime, working in sync, two very skilled knights, survived whille being surrounded by wights. But Sam being alive  is just ridiculous.

And since it seems like everybody is on the same train, why not haave him in the crypt, let him kill one or two deads before Arya kill the NK. See, this what annoys me in this show, that such things happpen when they re so easy to fix.

19 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I don't recall Jon ordering Sansa to pick up arms and learn to fight.

Nor do I recall Jon objecting to what Sansa did do, while he was away or after he returned

I think her actions met with his approval

He ordered all men, women and children to be trained - I'm not sure why Sansa would be the exception. You would think that Sansa, from all people, would try to learn a little.

Edited April 29, 2019 by Raachel2008

[Constantinople]

1 minute ago, Raachel2008 said:

He ordered all men, women and children to be trained - I'm not sure why Sansa would be the exception. You would think that Sansa, from all people, would try to learn a little.

He said everyone between the ages of 10 and 60 will train daily.

But apparently he didn't mean 'everyone' literally because I saw a lot of characters who didn't train

[LadyChaos]

14 minutes ago, Constantinople said:

I don't recall Jon ordering Sansa to pick up arms and learn to fight.

Nor do I recall Jon objecting to what Sansa did do, while he was away or after he returned

I think her actions met with his approval

He literally told everyone in the great room, "EVERY MAN AND WOMAN between the ages of 10-60 would train to fight'  That includes Sansa.

[Popples]

27 minutes ago, One Tough Cookie said:

OK: before I dissect the epi I  have just one question:  Where the hell is Bron?

Bronn's probably going to wait for Jaime and Tyrion to come to him. The news that the living defeated the Army of the Dead needs to reach King's Landing before plans would be made. Bronn's always been about number one and wasn't going to take a chance on getting killed by wights and not getting his castle. Even though he wasn't in the dragon pit when they brought the wight to show Cersei, I'm sure he heard about it.

[LadyChaos]

5 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

He ordered all men, women and children to be trained - I'm not sure why Sansa would be the exception. You would think that Sansa, from all people, would try to learn a little.

And lead by example.

[MissLucas]

If everybody had to train why was not everybody armed?

[Clanstarling]

8 hours ago, enoughcats said:

No hidden talents in being a master embroiderer?

Maybe she'll be sewing up the wounded next episode.

5 hours ago, MVFrostsMyPie said:

It seemed like kind of a waste to have Theon with a bunch of red shirts to defend Bran, when Bran knew that Arya would be the one to save him anyway (and why can't he share any of these thoughts? Like, "hey y'all, no worries, my sister will jump out of nowhere and kill the NK. Sorry y'all are going to die pointlessly anyway though." 
So, did Bran want Theon to die or not care about him dying, but wanted to at least make him feel better about dying by telling him he was a good man? 

Bran annoys the shit out of me. 

Sure, Bran sitting out there all alone without visible protection, the NK wouldn't find that at all suspicious. Theon's death was his salvation, he gave his life to save those he'd wronged. That's a good death.

1 hour ago, WaltersHair said:

I'm going to ask a dumb question. Did the NK bring Winter with him? Is that why the wind and snow started gusting, blinding the fighters and dragons?

Yes.

3 minutes ago, screamin said:

I saw that she took out the dagger, and Tyrion wordlessly agreed they would go out and fight, and both started to get up; we next see them on their feet among other survivors. 

The writer of this article also saw it that way.

I agree that she ignobly panicked when her ancestors starting bursting from their surprisingly shoddy tombs to kill everyone, and that was not her finest moment. She wasn't the only one in that episode, or even in that crypt, who did so. Tyrion, with actual battle experience, was hiding right next to her. Taking out the dagger and going out to fight with Tyrion instead of staying hidden was a fair recovery.

I saw their agreement differently - I took it as sort of a suicide pact, or something to that effect. That they'd each kill the other quickly if they couldn't get away, so their deaths wouldn't be horrible. And maybe by using dragonglass knives they couldn't be raised. I may have overthought it - but that was my takeaway.

Speaking of being raised, I found that the single most chilling scene of the episode, when the NK raised the dead and Lyanna's blue eyes opened.

[AttackTurtle]

While I love that Arya killed the NK, it wasn’t for the lack of effort that it wasn’t Jon.  Dude even left Sam to the wights to try to get to the NK.  

Jaime, Podrick, Brienne and Tormund were bonkers.  Every scene with them looked like they were in constant mob attacks....which made me more annoyed with Sam, who was more a nuisance than help in the battle.  He should’ve stayed with Gilly.

I plan on watching episode 2&3 again tonight, but as much as I enjoyed this last episode, it wasn’t as beautifully shot as Battle of the Bastards.  The scene with the Dothraki swords lighting up was beautiful though.

So Dany lost all of the Dothraki, her dragon, her best friend, and God only knows how many of the Unsullied to beat the Army of the Dead, and Sansa still appears to be giving the stink eye in previews.  Not to mention Dany was actually engaged in the battle and put her own life on the line.

Edited April 29, 2019 by AttackTurtle

[FormerMod-a1]

Two hard choices I liked.  1) Jon leaving Sam to his fate.  He knew if someone didn't protect Bran and take out the Night King they were all doomed (and imminently) anyway.  And, of course, he did not know about Arya being on her way.  2) The people in the crypt not opening the doors when the living were pounding on it.  It was obvious by the sounds that the wights were right there, too.  It's easy to want to save your friends, family, neighbors, etc but the wights would have come in, too. 

[catrice2]

8 minutes ago, LadyChaos said:

And lead by example.

If nothing else when Lady Lyanna gave her speech about not knitting by the fire while men fought for her, you would think Sansa would have been inspired by that, or by knowing a 10 or 11 year old was a bad ass.  I sure was!!  I had just started watching the show and I was like, who is this??!!

[GraceK]

8 minutes ago, AttackTurtle said:

Dude even left Sam to the wights to try to get to the NK.  

I head canon there was some leftover resentment there for the parentage reveal and talking smack about his girlfriend 😂😂😂

[catrice2]

After watching the Avengers Endgame, please tell me I wasn't the only one shouting, "go for the head!" during the entire battle? 

[sistermagpie]

1 hour ago, Sakura12 said:

Dany agreed to help without Jon bending the knee. So she was willing to help save the realm over ruling the North. Jon bent the knee later after she came to rescue his group.  

Thanks--I knew I didn't remember it clearly and wondered if I was getting that wrong.

Still, it's clear that the people of the North don't want to be ruled by Dany and it's logical they don't feel like her subjects. Sansa really does seem to be reflecting the attitude of the people when she just keeps telling Dany that they want to be independent. Dany can still make that happen. She could still give them independence despite Jon taking the knee and they're not going to start feeling differently about it out of gratitude when they fought the war too. Even if Dany didn't demand Jon take the knee it didn't seem like she expected to not rule the North. The question imo is: does Dany think it's her right to rule the North or not?

1 hour ago, Growsonwalls said:

Hmm I have to rewatch. It was sensory overload. But my feeling was that Sansa cowering in the crypt while people she loved were out there fighting and dying for Winterfell was not her best moment. 

I think that was a far better place for her to be than running out just to die with them and get in the way. Even if she had spent her last days training to fight, at best she just would have gotten killed without distracting anybody else. I don't think anybody fighting would have really appreciated her dying just because she loved them. Much better to get out of the way and keep people having to think about you imo. If Sam should have been in the crypt Sansa really should have been there and no matter what she would have been there with no battle experience at all--even if she'd trained. There's not a single moment in that battle where I thought things would have been improved if Sansa was still there.

In the crypt she certainly had no hero moment of using her knife to get the dead away from someone either, but I think that's an interesting choice.

47 minutes ago, Lemuria said:

I still have a problem with its being Arya that killed the NK,  There really wasn't a set-up for it.  Even the article notes not one but three stare-offs between the NK and Jon.  We have the prophecy, the history etc etc.  And I love the "excuse:"  "Prophecy is unreliable."  Except that this is a universe and story created out of whole cloth by the Martin and D&D.  Which means prophecy is only unreliable because the writers want it to be.

Because I like Arya, I'd have no problem with her and Jon teaming up.  In addition to the NK, there were WW there.  There could have been the NK and Jon fighting, while Arya defended Bran from the WW.  Why were the WW just standing there?  They should all have been moving in on Bran.  And when the NK grabbed Arya, he should have just tossed her into a tree--or into the group of WW, who could have overwhelmed her.

I think he only seems stupid in retrospect. From his pov, this was just yet another person who thought they could get the jump on him and ha ha, he caught her. He only held her for a second to look at her before he crushed her windpipe or tossed her aside or whatever. It wasn't that different from what he did with Theon, only he wasn't holding his sword because of the logistics of the moment. Up until the moment she tricked him Arya was following the exact script everyone else did. She seemed to be choking or frozen in fear, she dropped her weapon. Why would he think it was a trap after all his previous experience? There being no staring contest build-up was part of it. She was nobody to him. She dropped her weapon when he squeezed her throat. It wasn't stupid to think he'd subdued her.

8 minutes ago, Raachel2008 said:

He ordered all men, women and children to be trained - I'm not sure why Sansa would be the exception. You would think that Sansa, from all people, would try to learn a little.

I actually would imagine that he would consider her an exception because he wouldn't consider her one of the people he's ordering to do anything. Sansa's not being interested in learning any skills at all is on her, but I doubt she considered it an act of disobedience. It was a nice reflection of the first season where Sansa's disinterest in fighting is encouraged and praised while Arya wanting to fight isn't. This is why I think it's an interesting choice. Sansa was always the one who didn't fight and they didn't throw her a moment at the last minute where she got to be one too. She didn't aspire to be a badass and she wasn't one--at least not the Lyanna Mormont/Arya Stark model of one. This episode was not hers in any way. She might get a big moment later--the people on Team Crypt are more suited to Cersei's style of court intrigue.

[screamin]

10 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

I saw their agreement differently - I took it as sort of a suicide pact, or something to that effect. That they'd each kill the other quickly if they couldn't get away, so their deaths wouldn't be horrible. And maybe by using dragonglass knives they couldn't be raised. I may have overthought it - but that was my takeaway.

A suicide pact wouldn't  have required them to get up from their hiding place. They got up.

[JennyMominFL]

6 hours ago, riff-raff said:

I thought there were some gorgeous scenes and some great moments, but overall I'm disappointed.  Two things:

First -- I could not get over the mind-numbing idiocy of their battle strategy.  Sending the Dothraki out on an open field charge to their certain death?  It's worse then throwing their lives away.  Given what the NK raises the dead, you just gave the NK a mounted Dothraki army.   I know they wanted sweeping, sacrificial war scenes and all, but I  could not suspend my disbelief enough to accept that that in a war where keeping your side alive is the number 1 priority, you abandon the safety of castle and send everyone charging out towards them

I was like, its Pickett’s Charge. This wont end well.