S08.E02: A Knight of the Seven Kingdoms

[LadyChaos]

6 hours ago, catrice2 said:

Spoiler

So when Dany says the dead are already here...didn't both she and Jon come back from the dead before? Is that what she is referring to? 

Spoiler

Dany has never died.  She worked magic and walked into a fire to 'birth' her eggs, but she had never died.

Edited April 23, 2019 by SilverStormm
Tagged bc discussing ep 3 preview stuff

[TaurusRose]

1 hour ago, tennisgurl said:

I feel like its time to remember again, that Rhaegar was a dickhead. Yeah he was never a rapist or a psychopath like his father, but he certainly was a dickhead. He still left his poor wife Elia all alone in Kings Landing with his crazy evil father in the middle of a war zone to be horribly murdered, along with their children, after he annulled their marriage, making her children bastards and totally screwing them all over, and does the annulment in her homeland, just to make it all worse! And lets not forget, if he and Lyanna would have just told people the truth, it was have been a political mess, but it might not have ended up in a massive Civil War that killed countless innocents, and would later indirectly lead to THIS war as well, which killed even more people, and led to what could be the end of Westeroes, because everyone is unprepared to fight the Night King because everyone is still exhausted from the last war!

Alright, he couldn't have known about the whole ice zombie attack thing. But he and Lyanna saw the consequences of what they did, and they just did it anyway. Really, Lyanna does not really look great either in all of this, as she was apparently cool with letting her family think she was kidnapped and raped, and shacking up with the son of the guy who horribly murdered her father and brother for trying to defend her, and kept fighting for him, and knew all this other crap was going to happen, to Elia and her kids and the rest of the country, but...whatever, I guess, not her problem! And to rub salt into the wound, he even apparently named his son with Lyanna Aegon Targaryen, the name of his son and heir with Elia, like he was just totally wiping his first family out to replace them with his new shiny family. Forget that other son I just declared a bastard and presumably tossed out of the castle, look at my new son! I mean, if he didnt die horribly because dad couldn't keep it in his pants, of course. 

What a couple of assholes. Jon was probably better off being raised by Ned anyway.

I guess I really don't care.  We don't know the whole story; events as upsetting as these are rarely so black and white.  Besides all the principal players are dead.  They can't explain their actions or tell us what motivated them and why.  Their story was shaped by the survivors like Robert Baratheon, whose motives were hardly pure.  At this stage, it's all I can do to keep current relationships between enemies and allies (not to mention all the bickering, complaining and backstabbing) sorted out without delving into the murky past of R&L.  I reserve judgment until there is a full accounting of the events that led up to Rhaegar choosing Lyanna over Elia and vice versa.  I don't expect to learn much about that in episodes left.   

[Andromeda]

On 4/22/2019 at 6:00 AM, Drogo said:

The only problem I have with Arya's sex scene is that her face afterwards was very mehh/disappointed. 

I guess due to 7 seasons of building it up in her head.

Despite shows trying to make it romantic, a woman's first time is usually not all that. It can hurt! But I think she was thinking more of the battle to come.

I love that Dany pointed out to Sansa if anyone's been manipulated, it was her. She really does love Jon, you could see it in her eyes. If the actors don't have as much chemistry as one would want, I lay that at Harrington's door — he doesn't show a lot of emotion on his face.

Edited April 23, 2019 by Andromeda

[LadyChaos]

2 minutes ago, Andromeda said:

Despite shows trying to make it romantic, a woman's first time is usually not all that. It can hurt! But I think she was thinking more of the battle to come.

I also try to remember that she is likely thinking about all the people she loves that she is about to loose......that can put a damper on things. 

[CletusMusashi]

On 4/22/2019 at 9:00 AM, Drogo said:

The only problem I have with Arya's sex scene is that her face afterwards was very mehh/disappointed. 

I guess due to 7 seasons of building it up in her head.

If all you're walking around all day with a hammer, the way Gendry is, everything begins to look like a nail. 

Edited April 24, 2019 by CletusMusashi

[CletusMusashi]

15 hours ago, paigow said:

20,000 horny Golden Company sellswords fighting over local prostitutes.... 

Who actually owns the "Littlefingers" franchise now, anyway? Nipple Boy, I guess?

[ImpinAintEasy]

I’m going to have to stick up for Jon once again. It seems like many of the qualities that make him a good leader are disregarded because he’s not snarky like Sansa. Or he’s not a ruthless tyrant like Cersei. Somehow, people seem to associate being a schemer with making a good ruler. So when Sansa learns from the likes of Cersei and Littlefinger, she must be the most fit to rule! Cersei, the power hungry tyrant who has lost every potential ally and has now resorted to buying them. And Littlefinger, whose main credo was to sew as much chaos as possible and worm his way to a better position because of it. 

I don’t mean to necessarily compare Sansa to them, but at the same time, the people who tout her as being better suited to rule likely include being mentored by those two as a reason why. I think she would make a fine ruler, but I’d say the same for Jon. 

The argument that he somehow hasn’t earned it is unfair. What makes one worthy to rule? Desire to rule? Ability to scheme their way to the top? Having suffered the most?

Perhaps in this show people were groomed to believe that honor meant little when it came to the game of thrones. But I would hope that honor would win out in the end. That having a king or queen who cared more about the safety of the realm and the people, low and highborn alike, would be preferable to the same old scheming and backstabbing, or ‘The Climb’, as Littlefinger liked to call it. 

I don’t necessarily believe in an absolute monarchy, but if that is the way the series wraps up, I would want the monarch to possess the qualities and ideals that Jon possesses. I believe that’s possible with Daenerys and Sansa. Just don’t tell me they have somehow earned it more than Jon. He fights for those ideals as much as Dany, and more so than Sansa. 

With that said, of course he’s going to die. He is meant to suffer and any happiness he experiences is always short lived. Rest assured, Sansa will get a happy-ish ending. Dany will probably get a hollow and bittersweet ending, taking the crown, but being left with only the ghosts of those she loved, Jon included. Hopefully she is at least able to take the ideals of Jon and use them to be a better ruler. 

[TheGourmez]

11 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

The scene on the boat, when he was lying in bed and first addressed her as "my Queen" was hottttttttt.

It so was, and importantly, it was one of the few times we've seen them alone. Conveying googley eyes when in the midst of a group of people you're supposed to be commanding is a difficult challenge. I thought the last moment with them in this episode was very tender, Jon smiling softly on seeing her, Dany coming up behind Jon, him holding her arm even knowing what he's about to tell her. I think they've got more of a Ned & Catelyn chemistry than pretty much any other relationship on the show.

11 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I totally agree.  We don't know what Dany's eventual reaction will be, but her initial one was totally normal, appropriate and restrained.  She just received news that was shocking on multiple levels and had huge implications for her and Westeros.   

It was totally reasonable for her to raise the point that only Jon's brother (well, not really) and best friend were saying he was Aegon Targaryen.   It seemed like when Jon looked her in the eyes and told her he knew it was true, she pretty much believed him.

The one thing I found interesting was that she said, if it is true that Jon would have a claim the Iron Throne not the claim to it.  This suggests she might press her own claim, even if it is proven to her that he Rhaager's true born son.   Of course, she only had about 30 seconds to process this shocking revelation, so there is no telling where she will come down, assuming they both survive the upcoming battle.  

Yeah, I didn't have any fears about what Dany might do after that scene, and especially not after they exchanged glances back on top of the castle. I think there's going to be a difficult conversation...if they both live...but Dany instantly bringing up Jon's claim is pretty much what ANYONE would do upon learning this news. I'm not sure what folks think she should have done.

10 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Yeah, a lot of people have said Arya looked disappointed, but I also thought she might just be thinking about the battle.   

She's totally just thinking about the battle. I don't think it was meant to reflect on Gendry's skills in the slightest.

[arjumand]

18 hours ago, DrSpaceman said:

Has everyone at Winterfell forgotten the enemy has a dragon now?   I didn't hear a word about strategy to defend Winterfell from the ice dragon -- or for that matter how to prevent the other two dragons from suffering the same fate as their fallen sibling.  Jon's big lecture -- they don't tire, they don't die, etc. -- made no mention that a dragon was even part of the equation. 

Yes, I was side-eyeing that whole war council scene, especially Bran’s “Oh, he wants me. He wants me bad.”

And sam’s random “death is bad, y’all” was even worse. 

Basically, my theory is that Bran is either lying or just mistaken. 

Like Drspaceman said (and others) the Night King has a dragon now. The intelligent thing, when you have aerial support, is to cut off their retreat (go south, destroy that)  not just strafe them. Those White Walkers and wights we saw in the last shot were quite enough to deal with Winterfell (or to keep Dany and the dragons busy while the NK dealt with his real objective).

Also, in the previous episode, he sent a message (TM Beric): the statement Wall with spiral and impaled kid centrepiece.

If he was really after Bran, that could have been made up of ravens. Instead, we have the spiral, and a child in the middle. That’s a message alright, and it’s saying:

“I’m gonna get ya, you little shits.”

Why else would we be seeing The Isle of Faces (island in the middle of a lake called the God’s Eye) in the new intro, when we’ve never focused on it before? That’s where  the Children of the Forest are supposed to be, if there’s any left. That’s where NK is headed. It also links, in my opinion, with that vision of his, which hasn’t come true yet, the dragon over King’s Landing. 

Another thing re. Bran either lying or ignorant- the bit about the dragonfire and whether it affects WW or NK, and Bran saying that no one’s ever tried.

But we do know because it has been tried, last season, when Dany rescued them: there wasn’t a direct hit as such, but I definitely saw one or both just walk through the fire set by the dragons like ‘ain’t no thang’. So are we retconning that now? 

Edited April 23, 2019 by arjumand

[MissLucas]

47 minutes ago, arjumand said:

But we do know because it has been tried, last season, when Dany rescued them: there wasn’t a direct hit as such, but I definitely saw one or both just walk through the fire set by the dragons like ‘ain’t no thang’. So are we retconning that now? 

I think the question was about killing the NK with dragonfire - Dany's boys killed plenty of Wights and I guess also some White Walkers.

But I agree that I have my doubts that the plan with Bran as bait will work. I mean of course it won't because no plan has ever survived first contact with the enemy. But I don't think this had even a theoretical chance of working. There's a good chance that the NK isn't even present for the siege. And if he is he won't be as dumb as flying directly into dragon-crossfire.

[lorbeer]

11 hours ago, GraceK said:

Dragons don’t care about the iron throne . Jon may have rode Rhaegal, but that doesn’t mean he will turn on his mother , and Drogon is bonded and connected to Daenerys. When Viserion died both Dragons roared in pain. This idea that because Jon rode Rhaegal they are gonna suddenly turn on their mother is a fantasy of every anti dany fan. That and having Jon feed her to her own dragons. Even if Rhaegal bonds with Jon, he is not gonna turn on Daenarys, and Drogon  will never obey anyone else or hurt his mother. 

That's what I think. I'm not her fan, in this season she actually irritates me, but for me it's quite obvious that her dragon "children" or lets call them 'pets', are loyal to ther mother/master. Direwolves also won't abandon Starks if they won't become royals. The only possibility I can see is that Rhaegal could want to be with Jon but I can't see he would turn on Danearys.

[Scaeva]

17 hours ago, Wendy said:

LOL, I am not sure that is how it works either. Your point about Bronn makes sense, he would be selling knighthoods. 

I don't know how it works in Martin's universe, but there were times & places in human history where that was the custom. As such it doesn't really strike me as implausible that the show has it kosher for Jaime to knight Brienne.

While Bronn might be tempted to sell knighthoods, a very important check I would imagine is that there are going to be people higher up in the political food chain. Lords and kings can strip away titles and lands just as quickly as they grant them. Ned Stark did it with Gregor Clegane in the first season. (though it did not stick due to Ned ending up a prisoner of the family Gregor owed fealty to)

Bronn would risk losing everything by selling knighthoods.

[arjumand]

1 hour ago, MissLucas said:

- Dany's boys killed plenty of Wights and I guess also some White Walkers.

No, they didn’t kill any White Walkers.

the only white Walker killed was the one in charge of the group of wights, either with dragon glass or Valyrian steel, before any dragons arrived.

Once dragons came into play, it was only wights killed by dragonfire, and I’m pretty sure I saw either NK or WW walking through dragonfire.

Like I said, I don’t know if that was a mistake, special effects dragonfire wasn’t supposed to be so close to WW/NK, a retcon, or Bran is like :”Well, I didn’t see it, so it didn’t happen.”

[Minneapple]

7 hours ago, taurusrose said:

I guess I really don't care.  We don't know the whole story; events as upsetting as these are rarely so black and white.  Besides all the principal players are dead.  They can't explain their actions or tell us what motivated them and why.  Their story was shaped by the survivors like Robert Baratheon, whose motives were hardly pure.  At this stage, it's all I can do to keep current relationships between enemies and allies (not to mention all the bickering, complaining and backstabbing) sorted out without delving into the murky past of R&L.  I reserve judgment until there is a full accounting of the events that led up to Rhaegar choosing Lyanna over Elia and vice versa.  I don't expect to learn much about that in episodes left.   

I mean, for the purposes of the show, the story has been told. Rhaegar and Lyanna loved each other and they got married and had Jon in secret. I don't think it will get much deeper than that with only four episodes left. POOR ELIA. WHO'S ELIA? Oh. Right. 

[MissLucas]

You're right - there is  a scene with the NK

1 hour ago, arjumand said:

No, they didn’t kill any White Walkers.

the only white Walker killed was the one in charge of the group of wights, either with dragon glass or Valyrian steel, before any dragons arrived.

Once dragons came into play, it was only wights killed by dragonfire, and I’m pretty sure I saw either NK or WW walking through dragonfire.

Like I said, I don’t know if that was a mistake, special effects dragonfire wasn’t supposed to be so close to WW/NK, a retcon, or Bran is like :”Well, I didn’t see it, so it didn’t happen.”

You're right - the NK walks through dragonfire right before he takes down Viserion. To be fair it's only a couple of smoldering flames I might walk through with my Timberlands. Giving Bran the benefit of the doubt we don't know what happens if he gets the full burn.

Let's summarize what kills what:

Wights: Fire, Dragonglass and Valyrian steel.

White Walkers: Dragonglass and Valyrian steel.

Night King: ???

And Winterfell's armory consists of:

2 dragons

Lots of dragonglass weaponry but hardly enough to deal with roughly 100000 Wights.

5 blades from Valyrian steel: Oathkeeper, Widow's Wail, Heartsbane, Longclaw and Arya's dagger.

Probably some of the usual stuff used for siege defense by fire: oil, pitch etc.  (some wildfire might come handy but if any is left it's in KL).

In conclusion *gulp*

[RedHawk]

18 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

Does anyone feel enlightened about what the Night King wants?

Total nihilism. Ok. Then what? Will he self-destruct?

I mean, what's the POINT?

Every tyrant and conqueror in history has wanted something other than destruction of the Other.

NK is working super hard. Why???

(this is a problem with good and evil stories very often. I remember seeing a Lord of the Dance thing a few years back, Michael Flatley too old so produced it. The bad guys literally wore black and burned everything, the good guys literally had unicorns and flowers, it was like being trapped in a black light painting. But what did the baddies WANT?)

I’m not satisfied with Bran’s “It’s me he wants, the Three-Eyed Raven.” Well, when did you figure that out, Bran Who Has All the Knowledge? And why wait until now to tell everyone? Just, storywise, not that compelling. I don’t care if Bran lives or dies, and as another poster mentioned, the Citadel seems to have some historical records, written accounts, old legends, etc.

What did the previous TER do to help Westeros, or at least the North, in his 1,000 years or however long he existed? The whole TER thing just bugs me.

The White Walkers are a terrifying threat that has moved the tale along well enough but I’m also left wondering what they want. Oh, to destroy all the living of Westeros and bring eternal night/winter. Hmmm, ok [shrug] I guess that will suffice. 

[darkestboy]

The episode started slow at first but it grew into one of the best episodes of the season. So many character moments really elevated this one.

I think we're being made to question Dany's right to the throne and rightly so. Everyone is questioning or challenging her authority in various ways and her inability to yield or look at things from another perspective will be her undoing if she's not careful.

I was on Sansa's side during their scene together and it'll be interesting to see how Dany handles the revelation about Jon's claim to the throne after their battle with the Night King is done.

Jaime had some incredible scenes with the Starks, Dany, Tyrion and Brienne in this episode. The knighting scene with Brienne was the obvious highlight for me as well as everyone cheering Brienne on.

Arya and Gendry are one of the few gentle relationships on the show. I thought the show did well with that particular scene. I don't see why it would generate any real criticism.

There are obviously going to be so many deaths in the next episode to make up for the lack of deaths we've had in the first two episodes.

I can't get either version of Jenny of Oldstones out of my head. Thanks Podrick and Florence, 9/10

[DigitalCount]

17 minutes ago, darkestboy said:

I think we're being made to question Dany's right to the throne and rightly so. Everyone is questioning or challenging her authority in various ways and her inability to yield or look at things from another perspective will be her undoing if she's not careful.

This is the thing that gets me. How many episodes since the Loot Train have not included a scene where someone pulls Tyrion aside and says "but really, wtf are you doing with this nutjob"? I don't think Dany is being overly hostile, and over the last two episodes she's handled herself well, but it seems like a two steps forward, x steps back process and I'm not sure if x < 2 every time.

And this is a TV thing, but I can't help but remember the ominous music and Dutch angles they use when Dany burns someone/something, like when she was sentencing the Tarlys. I just don't know if we're gearing up for the biggest bait-and-switch in TV history, but if that ends up being the case, it won't be coming out of nowhere.

[Coxfires]

8 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

I also try to remember that she is likely thinking about all the people she loves that she is about to loose......that can put a damper on things. 

She just reconnected with her family (and herself) and now she will probably lose them all right afterwards. Gendry is one more person to lose in the battle. I see why she wouldn't feel ecstatic.

[terrymct]

10 hours ago, qtpye said:

By Wilding standards Tormund's got game. 

Remember that Ygritte's approach with Jon was to continually and loudly tell him that he knows nothing.

[Bali]

16 hours ago, BitterApple said:

Taking a different tack for a moment, this was clearly a "farewell" episode where we got one last chance to connect with characters we love before they start dying next week.

I'm curious to see, which scene/interaction was the most emotional for everyone?

There's so much to choose from, but for me it was Sansa and Theon eating together at the end. Such a simple thing, sharing a meal, but the mutual understanding and bond that was forged through surviving Ramsay just kicked me right in the feels. My second choice is Brienne being knighted.

I liked the Theon/Sansa hug. I enjoyed Turmond's attempts at seduction.

And honestly, my favorite moment was Sam giving Jorah the sword.

[MisterBluxom]

19 hours ago, lucindabelle said:

Does anyone feel enlightened about what the Night King wants?

Total nihilism. Ok. Then what? Will he self-destruct?

I mean, what's the POINT?

Seems to me the answer to this must be qualified by the reminder that like many other characters, the NK is something conjured up by the author to complement part of this story line and cannot be analyzed in terms of anything real.

I do not mean to insult anyone by saying this. I know you understand this. So why am I repeating it?

Well, so many posts made here seem to be based on the fact the chars are somehow real or at least can be analyzed according to human psychology. But we all know they are not and yet, that just seems so easy to forget when discussing them - especially chars like NK because it's not even based on anyone or anything real.

My reply would be the author invented NK because he needed some symbol of fear and terror to justify the development of the other chars. If the NK was real, I think the way it's been constructed just omits far too many human characteristics. Specifically, I don't think it has ever shown any sign of the ability to make complex plans or to think of ways to out-maneuver opponents. Apparently, that part of its mind died when the human part of this char died.

There's almost nothing about NK that makes any sense to me. It wants "death" to prevail and all living things to die so that it can then rule all that remains. But everything that remains will be dead. How does that make any sense?

It seems clear to me that a great truth has been made in this show. I refer to the truth, "nothing ever stays the same". So the condition where everything on this planet is dead and NK rules over all of it is impossible. Why? Because that would be a situation where nothing ever changes and there would be no point to that. There would be nothing to gain and nothing to lose. It makes no sense. It was never intended to make any sense. It is just an empty figment used to help make some sense of this story line and - IMHO - it is very poorly constructed. It's just one more external threat designed to set up yet another big expensive battle scene.

Personally, I'm tired of all these big battle scenes. I know they cost a whole lot of money to produce and they are quite thrilling and make for stunning TV. But when you watch battle after battle, it doesn't take long before they become excrutiatingly tiresome.  How many battles can you watch before you question the point?  I understand that someone always emerges from these things as extremely courageous and a great hero. But this cast is just chock full of extremely courageous heroes. There comes a time when it all just becomes too tiresome for words.

I truly do not mean to criticize anyone for believing it's possible to use human psychology to analyze chars created from the author's imagination. But after seven seasons, I just can't understand how the show runners expect to maintain the high quality of this entertainment.

Like many others, I believe this show is quite possibly the greatest TV epic ever made and I've loved watching it. But, it's just becomes far too difficult for me to go along with it anymore - at least the parts of it like the battles.

I understand that I can't speak for everyone. Many of you may have no problems to accept what is given to the audience. Perhaps I'm just getting too old for it any more.

Edited April 23, 2019 by MisterBluxom

[Bali]

16 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

Jon often sees the big picture, and will always put the people first, but he is too honorable. So its not that he can't play the game, and lie when it might be the right thing to do; its that he refuses too. Which means, that (like the scenario Tywin offered) if two fighting families come to him for aid, he will likely give his support to the one he feels needs it most, even if the decision costs him a major ally.   At least Jon grew up in Winterfell and knows what it takes to run one.

Cersei's ass better be dead....lets move on.....

WHOA! It took this thread for something to connect with me. At the very first episode- Ned was teach Jon to rule. "A true leader will always carry out the execution himself" or something like that.

Yes- Cersei's ass better be dead. And burned. We DO NOT want that beotch to come back- EVER!

[JonasArm]

2 minutes ago, Bali said:

Yes- Cersei's ass better be dead. And burned. We DO NOT want that beotch to come back- EVER!

Agreed.

For the event, I do hope we get 2 episodes of battle to give it the epic it needs and 2 long episodes of resolution.

[Drogo]

4 minutes ago, MisterBluxom said:

Like many others, I believe this show is quite possibly the greatest TV epic ever made and I've loved watching it. But, it's just becomes far too difficult for me to go along with it anymore - at least the parts of it like the battles.

I understand that I can't speak for everyone. Many of you may have no problems to accept what is given to the audience. Perhaps I'm just getting too old for it any more.

I'm trying to imagine this show without battles and it's not coming to me.  How would they determine the winner of the game of thrones?  Chess matches?  No, I got it... breakdance fighting.  Tyrion is going to kill it because center of gravity, Bran on the other hand...

I'm also of the camp that won't care who sits on the Iron Throne or if there is an Iron Throne or if Winter comes for everyone... because I will be happy with whatever's given to me.  Regardless of how the show ends, these years will be some of the greatest in my life and GoT will have been a part of them.  I also follow "Don't look a gift horse in the mouth" as a general rule.   

*Personally I was pulling for Tristan Martell and Myrcella Barratheon to lead Westeros, but the Sand Snakes ruined that like they ruin everything.

[Clanstarling]

9 hours ago, Andromeda said:

Despite shows trying to make it romantic, a woman's first time is usually not all that. It can hurt! But I think she was thinking more of the battle to come.

I love that Dany pointed out to Sansa if anyone's been manipulated, it was her. She really does love Jon, you could see it in her eyes. If the actors don't have as much chemistry as one would want, I lay that at Harington's door — he doesn't show a lot of emotion on his face.

I do get tired of that approach, and it sets up women for a huge let down. I expect it's mostly male writers who portray it this way.

[Bali]

15 hours ago, LadyChaos said:

This is a big  and important distinction. 

Also....maybe Dany is acting weird because she already suspects she might be pregnant?

I didn't think she was acting weird. I thought she was reacting to the fact that Jon, the man she loves, the man she risked a child (dragon) for, her armies and everything for was rejecting her at every chance as they stand on the verge of a great battle that will mean the deaths of many of them.

[One Tough Cookie]

With the Dothraki and the Unsullied camped at Wintefell, how the hell is Sansa supposed to feed them and the crowd inside the gate?

[Drogo]

Just now, One Tough Cookie said:

With the Dothraki and the Unsullied camped at Wintefell, how the hell is Sansa supposed to feed them and the crowd inside the gate?

She's not going to have that many to feed soon.

[Bali]

13 hours ago, Potanical Pardon said:

Didn't she also tell Arya, that they would meet again one day? Plus if the new Greyscale girl is Melisandre in-disguise, that would place both in the crypts.

I thought she said this to Varys? Can someone please let us know? Inquiring minds NEED to know.

[GodsBeloved]

1 minute ago, Drogo said:

She's not going to have that many to feed soon.

You are so wrong for this.

[Drogo]

Just now, Bali said:

I thought she said this to Varys? Can someone please let us know? Inquiring minds NEED to know.

She told Arya they'd meet again as she was carting away Gendry for 50 Shades of Kingsblood. 

She told Varys they would both die in Westeros before she was exiled from the North.

[Bali]

12 hours ago, CatWarmer said:

So back to the crypt - wouldn’t the dead each be buried in a sealed stone sarcophagus?  Presumably it would be extremely difficult for a skeleton to get out of one of those, as opposed to jumping up out of the open ground.   I can picture a scene where those down in the crypt suddenly hear a lot of rattling from inside the coffins...hmm, what’s that noise? Oh bleep! No, don’t lift that lid!

Well, I hadn't thought about that. This is true. I hope this is the case, because I still see the show-runners making the crypts the LAST place the weak and unarmed need to be. (Because you know- WHY DID HE RUN IN A STRAIGHT LINE?)

[Bali]

11 hours ago, Macbeth said:

Now Tyron's "fall from grace" is due to the fact that his family is his Achilles heel. He had 3 members of his family that loathe him. And at least 1 member tried to kill him in almost every season. 

In order to emotionally survive his family and maintain his sanity he has needed to keep blinders on.  Hopefully, Bran told Tyrion that Bronn is on his way up with Tyein's cross bow. 

I do think that a tendency to trust these people is a blind side for Tyrion. But I also think there was another spy in Dany's war council.

[TaurusRose]

2 hours ago, Minneapple said:

I mean, for the purposes of the show, the story has been told. Rhaegar and Lyanna loved each other and they got married and had Jon in secret. I don't think it will get much deeper than that with only four episodes left. POOR ELIA. WHO'S ELIA? Oh. Right. 

Pretty much. History. Who cares? Let’s move on.

[DarkRaichu]

So Bran has the ability to possess / jump into a crow to do surveillance on the enemy.  Why the heck did he not do it this season?  At least they would get some intel on how big the incoming zombie horde is.

[terrymct]

1 hour ago, One Tough Cookie said:

With the Dothraki and the Unsullied camped at Wintefell, how the hell is Sansa supposed to feed them and the crowd inside the gate?

The Dothraki and the Unsullied are outside the castle walls.  They're not going to last long enough to have to worry about feeding them.

[TaurusRose]

8 hours ago, TheGourmez said:

It so was, and importantly, it was one of the few times we've seen them alone. Conveying googley eyes when in the midst of a group of people you're supposed to be commanding is a difficult challenge. I thought the last moment with them in this episode was very tender, Jon smiling softly on seeing her, Dany coming up behind Jon, him holding her arm even knowing what he's about to tell her. I think they've got more of a Ned & Catelyn chemistry than pretty much any other relationship on the show.

Yeah, I didn't have any fears about what Dany might do after that scene, and especially not after they exchanged glances back on top of the castle. I think there's going to be a difficult conversation...if they both live...but Dany instantly bringing up Jon's claim is pretty much what ANYONE would do upon learning this news. I'm not sure what folks think she should have done.

She's totally just thinking about the battle. I don't think it was meant to reflect on Gendry's skills in the slightest.

Okay, I just have to say I love this post.

[Absurda]

Regarding Bronn:  it could be that he doesn't know he can make other knights.  I doubt he had the same knighthood training Jamie did, I'm sure there are many fine points of knighthood that Bronn does not know.

IMHO a ruler needs to have a balance of traits.  Honor like Ned Stark with a touch of Cersei's ruthlessness.  A ruler needs to be able to keep everyone they lead in line sometimes through force sometimes through compromise.  A ruler may need to do things that don't really fit with their personal beliefs because it is the best thing for their people.  A ruler has to make hard compromises and distasteful decisions.  A ruler needs to be political in addition to an inspiring leader, flexible and adaptive.

While Jon can undoubtedly lead and has some of these qualities, but not all of them.  He's too much Ned Stark's son where honor is all and politics be damned.  He just doesn't have the right balance of skills and I don't see him as willing to change and learn the politics.  The Starks (and most Northerners) seem to be too rigid to comfortably sit on IT.  He'd be an awesome advisor, Warden of the North or General of the Army, though.

Cersei is too much politics and ruthlessness and not enough honor and inspiring leadership and honor. 

Dany and Sansa seem most likely to be able to learn that proper balance and be able to adapt to ruling.

Anyway, just my opinion.

[MissLucas]

19 hours ago, BitterApple said:

There's so much to choose from, but for me it was Sansa and Theon eating together at the end. Such a simple thing, sharing a meal, but the mutual understanding and bond that was forged through surviving Ramsay just kicked me right in the feels. My second choice is Brienne being knighted.

It occurred to me upon rewatching that this was a callback to her reunion with Jon where she was trying to make the best of Crow cuisine over a bowl of soup. Soup seems to be Sansa's comfort food when reuniting with long lost err... brothers. Well except for Bran, you just know that he gave her an empty stare before proclaiming 'The three eyed raven requires no soup'- and that's how Sansa knew he was a complete freak! 

[Bryce Lynch]

4 hours ago, MissLucas said:

You're right - there is  a scene with the NK

You're right - the NK walks through dragonfire right before he takes down Viserion. To be fair it's only a couple of smoldering flames I might walk through with my Timberlands. Giving Bran the benefit of the doubt we don't know what happens if he gets the full burn.

Let's summarize what kills what:

Wights: Fire, Dragonglass and Valyrian steel.

White Walkers: Dragonglass and Valyrian steel.

Night King: ???

And Winterfell's armory consists of:

2 dragons

Lots of dragonglass weaponry but hardly enough to deal with roughly 100000 Wights.

5 blades from Valyrian steel: Oathkeeper, Widow's Wail, Heartsbane, Longclaw and Arya's dagger.

Probably some of the usual stuff used for siege defense by fire: oil, pitch etc.  (some wildfire might come handy but if any is left it's in KL).

In conclusion *gulp*

Nice summary!

I think they might have enough dragon glass.  Between the Northerners, the Unsullied and the Dothraki they probably have 50,000 to 100,000 troops.  The dragonglass spears, axes, daggers, etc. can each be used to kill multiple wights.   They dragons could also take out large numbers of them at a time.   

They also have Winterfell, which we were told can be held by a relatively small force.  

I don't think the battle is as hopeless as they have been making it out to be.  I think they will win but suffer terrible losses.  

[taanja]

13 hours ago, qtpye said:

By Wilding standards Tormund's got game. I've suckled at a giant's teats has got to be the most bizarre opening line ever.

Hey! It made ME want to fuck him right there and then. So yeah-- Tormund got game!

[GodsBeloved]

10 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Nice summary!

I think they might have enough dragon glass.  Between the Northerners, the Unsullied and the Dothraki they probably have 50,000 to 100,000 troops.  The dragonglass spears, axes, daggers, etc. can each be used to kill multiple wights.   They dragons could also take out large numbers of them at a time.   

They also have Winterfell, which we were told can be held by a relatively small force.  

I don't think the battle is as hopeless as they have been making it out to be.  I think they will win but suffer terrible losses.  

OK so the Wights are the bulk of the army right? They can be handled by the dragons and fire archers. 

The White Walkers can be handled by the Northerners, Unsullied and Dothraki.

Is zombieDragon a wight as well? If so the other dragons can handle him. Also what exactly does zombiDragon breath and what does it do when it makes contact with humans?

And the Night King? I want Arya to get him LOL

[Absurda]

I think the big challenge really is that dead humans can become wights so the NK can replenish his army as he goes and replace losses while the human army just diminishes.  Plus the psychological effect of fighting zombie versions of your comrades. 

[Clanstarling]

11 minutes ago, Absurda said:

I think the big challenge really is that dead humans can become wights so the NK can replenish his army as he goes and replace losses while the human army just diminishes.  Plus the psychological effect of fighting zombie versions of your comrades. 

Which is why the dragons' first task should be to take out as many wights as possible.

[GodsBeloved]

Just now, Clanstarling said:

Which is why the dragons' first task should be to take out as many wights as possible.

Plus as soon as someone dies, they should be set afire if possible. I think it was Edd who reminded us about this.

[Law Mom]

15 minutes ago, Absurda said:

I think the big challenge really is that dead humans can become wights so the NK can replenish his army as he goes and replace losses while the human army just diminishes.  Plus the psychological effect of fighting zombie versions of your comrades. 

So true. Remember Karsi? She was the kickass wildling warrior mom who let her guard down for a split second when she saw the wight children and it was her downfall. God, she was one of the best single episode characters in this whole damn show.

Edited April 23, 2019 by Law Mom

[VCRTracking]

So many great moments in the episode but the rewarding part as a long time viewer was during the meeting seeing most of the characters we've followed these past eight seasons all in one room together, interacting. One of the reasons I enjoy Stranger Things is in each season you have 3 or 4 different stories with a certain character or group of characters going for most of the 9 episodes. Then in the penultimate episode the stories converge, the characters meet, compare notes, plan and each assigned their role in the climax. The big reason Heroes was such a disappointment is that you were individually getting to know all these disparate characters around the world and you were anticipating when they would meet. When they finally meet in the season 1 finale however they immediately go straight to fighting the bad guy.  We barely got to see them interact at all and it was such a huge let down.

Edited April 23, 2019 by VCRTracking

[izabella]

4 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

We barely got to see them interact at all and it such a huge let down.

And then they either die, or the story ends, so we never get to enjoy even a little bit of the aftermath of the big fight even when they win. 

[AshleyN]

2 hours ago, Absurda said:

Regarding Bronn:  it could be that he doesn't know he can make other knights.  I doubt he had the same knighthood training Jamie did, I'm sure there are many fine points of knighthood that Bronn does not know.

IMHO a ruler needs to have a balance of traits.  Honor like Ned Stark with a touch of Cersei's ruthlessness.  A ruler needs to be able to keep everyone they lead in line sometimes through force sometimes through compromise.  A ruler may need to do things that don't really fit with their personal beliefs because it is the best thing for their people.  A ruler has to make hard compromises and distasteful decisions.  A ruler needs to be political in addition to an inspiring leader, flexible and adaptive.

While Jon can undoubtedly lead and has some of these qualities, but not all of them.  He's too much Ned Stark's son where honor is all and politics be damned.  He just doesn't have the right balance of skills and I don't see him as willing to change and learn the politics.  The Starks (and most Northerners) seem to be too rigid to comfortably sit on IT.  He'd be an awesome advisor, Warden of the North or General of the Army, though.

Cersei is too much politics and ruthlessness and not enough honor and inspiring leadership and honor. 

Dany and Sansa seem most likely to be able to learn that proper balance and be able to adapt to ruling.

Anyway, just my opinion.

I don't think anyone has all of them*, and tbh, I'm not sure that's not the point. There's no such thing as a perfect ruler. It's better to have a mix of different views and voices.

*The closest anyone came was Margaery really, but she fell victim to the classic blunder of underestimating Cersei's crazy (or, more accurately probably, of not being a main character).

Edited April 23, 2019 by AshleyN