S03.E08: The White Elephant

[iMonrey]

So that happened. I really kind of resent the show ending on a cliffhanger. The main reason shows do that is because they want fans to write into the network and demand another season to resolve it. The show runners knew there was a chance there would be no fourth season so they deliberately screwed us over if the show gets cancelled.

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Considering that ITV hasn't shown the third season yet, and the quality of the scripts, there may not BE a fourth season.

Yeah that's not very encouraging. Also, what PBS calls the "season finale" has been used as the "Christmas Special" when it airs in the UK, and it's usually over an hour long. The first two were. This one clocked in at the same run time as the other episodes this season. That doesn't really bode well either.

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I just want to know if Albert’s assistant married the old duchess’s niece from last season.  How is it that we never find that out?

You may be conflating two different characters. Lord Alfred was the one who was engaged to Wilhelmina. He was not Albert's assistant. Historically, he was Chief Equerry and Clerk Marshal to the Queen. He had a juicy storyline of his own last season with Drummond, but he's been little more than an extra this season. In this episode he was nothing more than a background character!

I don't know what became of Albert's private secretary, we have not seen that character since Season 1. 

[ItCouldBeWorse]

On 3/3/2019 at 10:24 PM, jumper sage said:

I just can't stand how Feodora keeps saying she would have been a good queen.  She was never going to be the queen of England.  The only reason she got a royal match at all is because her mother married a royal and then had Victoria.  If she never had Victoria the mother and Feo would have been booted years before.  This is not a spoiler because it was discussed on the first episode of season 1 of why Victoria was in line for Queen.  Remember when Queen Charlotte and her child died in childbirth?  This is what gave Victoria stress on her first pregnancy.

Anyways - I don't know why they keep harping on that one point of Feo thinking she could have been queen.  Ridiculous!

20 hours ago, Lily H said:

George IV was apparently quite taken with the young Feo, and it is possible that he could have married her, making her Queen Consort. But Feo's mother put a stop to it and married her off to the German prince. That's why Feo is shown to be so bitter and feeling that she could have been Queen instead.

Charlotte was never Queen.  Her father, the future George IV, was still Prince of Wales, and she was the heir presumptive,  not even the heir apparent, because if a legitimate brother had been born to her father before he died, she would have been displaced.

Charlotte died in 1817. Her mother, Caroline of Brunswick, died in 1821. George IV lived until 1830. If George IV had married Feodora after he was widowed, she would have been Queen Consort.  If she had borne a child who lived past George IV's death, that child would have been King or Queen instead of William IV, (who was succeeded by Victoria) and Feodora would have been Queen Mother, and possibly regent.  Since Feodora did not marry until 1828, theoretically, she was available as a bride for George IV, had he wanted one.

Edited March 5, 2019 by ItCouldBeWorse

[3 is enough]

1 hour ago, voiceover said:

I'm going to offer up a puny defense of Jenna's figure after seven children:

Check out Jonathan Rhys Meyers' Henry VIII  on The Tudors.

As much as I enjoyed the Tudors, I never could wrap my head around that version of Henry.  I chalked it up to the actor being too vain to wear a fat suit.

[penguinnj]

Horrible combination of laughing and swearing at the horrendous writing when little Deus Ex Machina shows up as the Duchess is almost out the door.  Awful dosen't even begin to cover it.

[Good Queen Jane]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

I don't know what became of Albert's private secretary, we have not seen that character since Season 1. 

Didn't he get shot?

[allirish47]

Anybody else think that Lord Pam might have planted the seed about Heidi marrying the new French emperor w/ Feo to try to get rid of her? That maybe he assumed that eventually the idea would get back to Albert, who would flip out & send Feo packing? A. certainly turned on Feo in a hurry when Bertie told him.....

[Nolefan]

15 hours ago, buttersister said:

Albert and the Vick looked like they were going to make the next baby, then Albert collapsed, unconscious.

As a shallow person who watches this show primarily for Victoria and Albert’s romance, this can almost be a metaphor for S3 for me. 😞

[Nolefan]

32 minutes ago, allirish47 said:

Anybody else think that Lord Pam might have planted the seed about Heidi marrying the new French emperor w/ Feo to try to get rid of her? That maybe he assumed that eventually the idea would get back to Albert, who would flip out & send Feo packing? A. certainly turned on Feo in a hurry when Bertie told him.....

I think Lord Palmerston had absolutely no respect for Prince Albert and was sure the Great Exhibition was going to be a colossal failure and Albert would wind up being even weaker than he was. I think he wanted to infuriate Albert with the Heidi/Napoleon match and creating a larger family rift would have been icing on the cake, as he would have had Victoria’s allegiance even more.  If Feo happened to get sent packing by Albert, he probably didn’t care either way. Obviously, he erroneously judged the situation.

Edited March 4, 2019 by Nolefan

[iMonrey]

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Anybody else think that Lord Pam might have planted the seed about Heidi marrying the new French emperor w/ Feo to try to get rid of her? That maybe he assumed that eventually the idea would get back to Albert, who would flip out & send Feo packing? A. certainly turned on Feo in a hurry when Bertie told him.....

I don't know about that but the whole incident demonstrated why Feodora was such an ineffective villain. She could have easily avoided confrontation over this by claiming she was only repeating what Palmerston had suggested. You'd think Albert would believe her over Palmerston. Hell, he believed her over his own wife for most of the season.

Instead, Feodora lashes out and basically calls Albert's kid a moron not fit for her daughter. Talk about burning your bridges.

This whole story was just horribly written and not in the least bit believable. 

[NeenerNeener]

On 3/2/2019 at 6:49 PM, Zella said:

Yeah I'm not above enjoying a good melodrama/soap, as long as it's not trying to masquerade as something else. I think that's what I resent the most about the whole thing. If Daisy Goodwin would just own how very fictional and spectacularly unhistorical it is, I'd still not like it, but I could respect her honesty.

Yeah, as long as Goodwin insisted on playing fast and loose with history, she could have written in at least one visit from Ernst this season. I never thought I'd miss a character played by David Oakes, because he's usually the villain in the Brit dramas I've seen.

And why does it look like she offed Albert before children 8 & 9 were conceived and born, or was that supposed to have happened off screen (along with the birth of child 7) between episodes 7 & 8 this season?

I'm already on record saying I'm out for any seasons involving Victoria's widowhood.

[TigerLynx]

I don't know why they did this stupid rewriting of history with Feo.  Since they did, I wish someone would point out to Feo that if George had really wanted to marry her, he would have.  Notice that Victoria had no problem putting Sophie's husband in his place.

Sophie would be smart to accept Victoria's offer of protection.  It may sound romantic to run off to America with Joseph, but reality would be something else.  I do love the notion that everyone in America is free and equal.  Tell that to the Native American Indians, the Chinese, the African-Americans, and oh yeah White Women to.

Feo should have taken the olive branch Victoria was offering her.  Feo got what she wanted, Victoria was footing the bills, buying things for Feo and Heidi (which Queen Victoria actually did), and the match Albert was proposing for Heidi was a good one.

Victoria sounded very Queenish with Sophie, Hunter, and Feo.

This season was pointless.

Edited March 5, 2019 by TigerLynx

[madhacker]

I just have one tiny question about the finale:

Could Victoria take Snidley Whiplash (aka the Duke) title away? Or would that take an act of Parlament?

Everything else, yeah agree on. I'm hoping if there is a next season they give Tommy Knight the subplot story. He's been on the show for 4 seasons and is little more than a glorified extra. He's too talented an actor for this. 

[Notwisconsin]

6 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Charlotte died in 1817. Her mother, Caroline of Brunswick, died in 1821. George IV lived until 1830. If George IV had married Feodora after he was widowed, she would have been Queen Consort. 

Now if you're talking about high-class soaps, the war between George the Fourth and the "Queen" would have been totally fun!!!! She was the only royal to ever be IMPEACHED and put on trial before the House of Lords since the Charles 1st. At George's coronation, she literally had the doors of Westminster Abby slammed in her face!!!!! Of course, her boyfriend at the time wasn't anywhere near there...

As I said,  it would have been far more fun than this dreck.

[Notwisconsin]

While the sets and costumes were lovely and the acting was rather good, I'm afraid the writing sucks.  Not much happens in the 1850s besides the Crimen war. Therefore, it's probably a good idea to either end this thing or fast forward to Vicky's wedding and follow her for the next season or two.

[buttersister]

One vote for end.

[dubbel zout]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

Instead, Feodora lashes out and basically calls Albert's kid a moron not fit for her daughter. Talk about burning your bridges.

Which was especially dumb because the marriage was a nonstarter from the get-go: There's no way Bertie would have married anyone that much older than he was.

50 minutes ago, madhacker said:

Could Victoria take Snidley Whiplash (aka the Duke) title away? Or would that take an act of Parlament?

Hereditary peerages can't be taken away by anyone.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

It was really satisfying watching Victoria not fall for any of the Duke of Monmouth's crap.

On 3/2/2019 at 6:16 PM, Morlock said:

Bertie being a brat I am still laughing at that PC line "England has Queens, not Kings!" yes, he would really say that.

The historical Bertie did think that until someone explained to him that he was the heir instead of his older sister.

[Noneofyourbusiness]

29 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Which was especially dumb because the marriage was a nonstarter from the get-go: There's no way Bertie would have married anyone that much older than he was.

No, but engagements could be stretched out as long as necessary.

[LittleIggy]

If there is another season, they should have Lord Melbourne return as a ghost who advises Victoria. Anything to get Rufus Sewell back! 😏

[andromeda331]

6 hours ago, Notwisconsin said:

Now if you're talking about high-class soaps, the war between George the Fourth and the "Queen" would have been totally fun!!!! She was the only royal to ever be IMPEACHED and put on trial before the House of Lords since the Charles 1st. At George's coronation, she literally had the doors of Westminster Abby slammed in her face!!!!! Of course, her boyfriend at the time wasn't anywhere near there...

As I said,  it would have been far more fun than this dreck.

Yeah, if I remember right from one of the books I read the people sided with Caroline, not because they thought she was a great person or anything but they hated George IV more. 

[CousinAmy]

I don't mind so much that Queen Vic kept her girlish figure, but didn't she have internal damage from having given birth so many times? Or did that happen after the last two? 

[andromeda331]

This season was bad. This episode was bad. Some parts were good. The Expedition going well. I wish we could have seen more of that but it was probably hard to do. Feodora is probably gone finally. Hopefully Joseph is too.  Albert finally apologized to Victoria. Victoria making the Duke present his wife and offering a place for her and her son in town. And her comment about leaving her son. Pam and Emily. I even liked the Prime Minister happy after Pam resigned. I liked Heidi and Bertie proposing to her was cute. She very nicely turned him down. I liked Vicky wiping her hand after it was kissed. That was such a kid thing to do.

So much of it was bad. Joseph's rant about how he was going to snap the Duke's neck and in front of the other servants. That was stupid. Better hope the Duke doesn't end up dead and he's the prime suspect (Please do not do this DG). I hated him telling Sophie that her son won't be a child forever. Ah, one he's a child now and any sympathy or love he has from his mother will probably disappear if she runs off with someone else and leaves him behind. Had either character been fleshed out more I might care about the outcome but I really don't. Now he as met Sophie, he's changed? Now she's met Joseph she's ready to abandoned her son to run off to America? Penge apologizing to Joseph because he misjudged him. I don't mind him throwing the money back at the duke but didn't like him apologizing. I hated Victoria going after her sister to try and talk to her. After she's been so horrible to her the entire season. I still hate the mother has being absent the whole season.

I hate the cliffhanger with Albert. Ah, he didn't die yet and he wasn't even in bad health yet. Given the crazy way the writing I did wonder if DG was going to kill him off. Even thought its a decade and two more kids later. If not I wonder if she'll blame his illness whatever it is on Leopold's haemophilia on it and Albert. She hates him so much and destroyed his character this season I could see her doing either one. See? He's dead. Or see? He's responsible for that horrible disease that destroyed so many of his grandchildren, his son and killed the Romanov children. See? It was all Albert's fault. 

I laughed at Joseph talking about how great it would be in America. Sorry Joseph no, it really wasn't any better. I laughed really hard when Albert assured Bertie he would find love. Your not kidding Albert. I laughed really hard at Feodora so thrilled that her daughter's could be Empress. Boy is she going to be disappointed when Victoria's ends up Empress of India. What's your plan then Feodora? You can't go higher then Empress?

Edited March 5, 2019 by andromeda331

[kassygreene]

10 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Which was especially dumb because the marriage was a nonstarter from the get-go: There's no way Bertie would have married anyone that much older than he was.

Hereditary peerages can't be taken away by anyone.

The first (and only) Duke of Monmouth was the eldest illegitimate son of Charles II.  On his father's death he attempted to rebel and take the crown from his  uncle, James II.  He failed, his title was removed by attainder, and he was executed.

Not  exactly a Victorian thing.

[Nolefan]

More convinced than ever that the powers that be wrote S3 as basically a transition season to Albert dying and Victoria becoming a widow. The way they tore down Albert’s character so much and Victoria and Albert’s love story, I think it was meant to get the audience to dislike Albert and even cheer for his death. I am expecting that at the beginning of next season, Albert will be some invalid who has been unable to keep Victoria “satisfied.” I also think the show is setting it up so that Victoria has a romantic interest in Lord Palmerston after Albert dies. Her glances at him and their “admiring” relationship seems to be foreshadowing a lot more than Queen and MP to me. And the show is really putting effort into promoting Lord Palmerston and the actor portraying him, like they have bigger plans for him. I think Victoria will be devastated when Albert dies, but instead of turning to John Brown initially, she is going to turn to her Lord Pam. Lord Pam will stick to his wife, though, and adhere to his agreement with Emily of not getting involved with women who are looking for love, like Victoria will be (and I am sure Emma Portman will be here advising Victoria and Lord Pam). Victoria will then basically become Sophie, as she turns to her devoted servant man, John Brown, for comfort. Victoria seemed to realize Sophie had a thing for Joseph, so either she’ll remember Sophie or Sophie will still be around because she did not run off with Joseph to America. Sophie’s memory or Sophie herself will then help Victoria get with John Brown. Just a guess.

[Notwisconsin]

4 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

You're not kidding Albert. I laughed really hard at Feodora so thrilled that her daughters could be Empress. Boy, is she going to be disappointed when Victoria's ends up Empress of India! What's your plan then Feodora? You can't go higher than, Empress?
 

 

She was dead by then. Princess Heidi didn't marry the Duke the show said she would but someone else. (Not a spoiler as she' out of the picture, so to speak, although Napoleon III did indeed seek her hand), As to the Empress of India thing, (Also not a spoiler because the series isn't going to last that long) Disraeli did that because Victoria I was discomforted at the prospect that her daughter, Victoria II, was set to become Empress of Germany and didn't want to be outranked.  Also, little Vicky didn't marry the Crown prince as they said, she married his son (which may be a spoiler but I don't think there's going to be a season 4)

[Kohola3]

5 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I laughed at Joseph talking about how great it would be in America. Sorry Joseph no, it really wasn't any better.

In all fairness, the story of America as the land of milk and honey and streets paved in gold was very prevalent at that time.  Millions of people emigrated in hopes of a better life.  And some immigrants did make a better life for themselves.

I gave up looking for realism pretty quickly this season.  I guess I'm down to watching for the clothing as I thought the costumes were gorgeous.  

And I must be a party of one because I have no love for Pam at all.  Can't stand him, he's so smarmy.

[Nolefan]

40 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

And I must be a party of one because I have no love for Pam at all.  Can't stand him, he's so smarmy.

Maybe a party of two, because I cannot stand him either. Real life Victoria could not stand him at this point as well, so I cannot figure out why (besides my theory in another post) this show has painted his character in such a glowing light.

[Zella]

I like Pam but dont deny that he is smarmy. I actually kind of enjoy his smarminess, if only because it's at least more entertaining than whatever Victoria and Albert were up to this season.

[Razzberry]

Kind of a silly "cliff-hanger", unless they plan on killing off Albert a decade early.   Obviously he's exhausted but Bertie thinking he's dead?  Is he psychic?   Then again, I wouldn't put it past Feo to be slow-poisoning him just to spite her sister.  Her seething hatred knows no bounds...

It's curious that this season hasn't aired in the UK yet.  Looking forward to reading their thoughts on it.

[tennisgurl]

I like Pam and I love his relationship with his wife, but he is also super swarmy and can be a real dick. He basically spent this whole episode rooting for the expo to fail so he can brag about how he saw it all coming and having people from around the world working together is stupid, and starts pouting when its a clear success. Really, thats one of the reasons I enjoyed him so much this season. Unlike the cartoon cut out villains like the Duke of Assholes and Gothic Novel bad guy Feo, and perfect Sue Victoria,he had some complexity to him, and had both good and bad traits. 

I actually thought this season started out alright, but it went downhill with record speed. Feo and the Duke were just evil dickheads cackling in the background, we spent way too much time with this boring and cliche Duchess and the footman paper back romance story, and there were too many new characters, and not enough time with old characters that I actually like, or any time with them at all. Worst of all, the characterization of Victoria and Albert was just all over the place. Victoria became so perfect and all knowing that she lost what made her compelling, while also making her frequently petty and quick to anger in the way that I cant imagine a queen and fully grown person would be, while they made Albert look like an asshole half the time, and the other half he got to be his normal self, which made him seem like almost two different people. It didnt seem like there were many aspects of one person, it was like the writers tried to write a consistent character, but the showrunner wanted Albert to be more of an asshole, and it was added in later. I mean, I dont want to watch Victoria and Albert have stupid marital problems like this is a weird Dallas reboot! I want to see them run their damn country! Like in real life!

At least Albert got his win with the expo being a huge hit, and him finally getting some props, and Victoria even stood up for him and they had some actual nice moments again. I was like "oh yeah, I used to really like them as a couple" and I remembered why I liked this show! With this shows tenuous connection to history, I was almost nervous that they would go against history and make it a failure, but to get another knock on Albert. 

So now the footman is off to America, and the Countess is going to try single living. As long as its over, I dont care. Really, I just want her son to be alright, poor kid. 

I mean, if this show wants to be a historical costume soap, thats fine, just BE a soap! Dont bother to act like your something more, not anymore. This season still had moments and episodes and plots that I liked, when they remembered to make the characters act like likable, real people, and looking at interesting events and people in that time that people dont really talk about much but deserve attention, and the sets and costumes are always great (even in its smaller scale, the expo looked beautiful, and I wanted to hang out there more!), but if it does come back, I am hoping and praying for better.

Oh, a cliffhanger? Really? We know Alfred wont die for awhile, why are they teasing this out?! Or have we just totally told history to shut it now?

[iMonrey]

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Which was especially dumb because the marriage was a nonstarter from the get-go: There's no way Bertie would have married anyone that much older than he was.

True, but what I meant by Feo burning her bridges is that if she ever had any hope of maintaining a civil relationship with her sister and brother-in-law/cousin, the last thing she should have done was insulted their kid that way. She burned her bridges with them. Hopefully.

[andromeda331]

5 hours ago, Notwisconsin said:

She was dead by then. Princess Heidi didn't marry the Duke the show said she would but someone else. (Not a spoiler as she' out of the picture, so to speak, although Napoleon III did indeed seek her hand), As to the Empress of India thing, (Also not a spoiler because the series isn't going to last that long) Disraeli did that because Victoria I was discomforted at the prospect that her daughter, Victoria II, was set to become Empress of Germany and didn't want to be outranked.  Also, little Vicky didn't marry the Crown prince as they said, she married his son (which may be a spoiler but I don't think there's going to be a season 4)

Oh, I know but in this show? Who knows. DG already made up so much stuff like that crap about Leopold being Albert's daddy, I can see her making up that Heidi married Napoleon to become Empress and rubbing it in Victoria's face and finding reasons to make her sister's life miserable because her daughter is now Empress. Maybe on the show she'll drop dead of a heart attack after hearing her sister becomes Empress of India. 

[smartymarty]

12 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I laughed at Joseph talking about how great it would be in America. Sorry Joseph no, it really wasn't any better.

Well, at least in America they would not have to live within the constraints of England's class system.

I was okay with Sophie thinking of leaving her son behind when her husband had control of him. But once Victoria made it so that she and her son could live together, I was less convinced. And I thought Joseph was saying she could come back, or her son to America, once the son was no longer a minor, therefore it would only be a few years apart, which I didn't find too terrible, except, yeah, parents should choose their children over their lovers, especially when the other parent is so horrid.

[seacliffsal]

I would think that Sophie was very comfortable with the English class system-she was a lady-in-waiting to the Queen of England after all.  The U.S. did have (and does have) a class system in which an impoverished former footman and an impoverished former Duchess would find themselves towards the bottom.  Unless she thought ahead and brought all of her jewelry with her to sell.  After all of that luxury, I would love a spin-off following their grand adventures in the U.S.  Wagon trains across the plains, muddy and desperate camp life in the gold fields (and it was the merchants/suppliers who made the real money during the gold rush).  Ah, the good life that Joseph promised...

[Twopper]

On 3/4/2019 at 1:39 PM, penguinnj said:

Horrible combination of laughing and swearing at the horrendous writing when little Deus Ex Machina shows up as the Duchess is almost out the door.  Awful doesn't even begin to cover it.

That's what I thought as well.   William tells mummy he dreams he is lost and cannot find her, and she immediately decides not to go to America. 

I thought this was one of the better episodes in a lackluster season.   I would have liked  to see more of the inside of the Crystal Palace, but I am sure reproducing more of it would be a production nightmare.  I did think maybe the wigwam (or is it a tepee?) in the US exhibit would be enough to discourage the Duchess from heading to the US.

I also laughed and nearly fell out of my chair when Lord P referred to the Crystal Palace as the Crystal Carbuncle as it brought to mind the famous "monstrous carbuncle speech" made by Prince Charles when he deplored the plans for an extension to the National Gallery.  The plans were later changed.     The writing is so bad they had to borrow from Prince Charles.    (If someone can find that Lord P actually said that line in real life,  I will consider apologizing to the writers).

I was glad that I  had this on the DVR so I could FF thru the local PBS station trying to get me to renew my membership (which I have allowed to lapse in recent years) for the dvd collection of this series.  Nope, not interested.

I guess I will tune in for ep 1 of the next season, if there is a next season.  

[magdalene]

Pam is obnoxious and arrogant and I certainly did not like him at all during his first episode. But he quickly grew on me - like a weed - ha. Laurence Fox is so very good and entertaining in the role.  Also, I can't be the only one thinking this - Goodwin clearly prefers certain actors and their characters over others.  Lord Melbourne seemed to be her favorite earlier in the show and now Pam may be benefiting sort of in the same way and Fox has made the best of the writing for his character. I don't think Pam is a perfect man but I like him despite his flaws.

I am wondering if the show continues and shows a middle-aged Victoria and Albert - will they recast with older actors? Like they did with The Crown.

[nora1992]

How’s this for speculation: Albert collapses with an unknown illness,    but recovers next season.  Unfortunately, the illness renders him bald.  (Bye-bye, forelock!)

[Zella]

4 hours ago, smartymarty said:

I was okay with Sophie thinking of leaving her son behind when her husband had control of him. But once Victoria made it so that she and her son could live together, I was less convinced. And I thought Joseph was saying she could come back, or her son to America, once the son was no longer a minor, therefore it would only be a few years apart, which I didn't find too terrible, except, yeah, parents should choose their children over their lovers, especially when the other parent is so horrid.

This was another plot point that I found quite unbelievable. Sophie was consistently established as a woman who was quite a devoted mother--especially for an upper-class character. I just never saw her loving Joseph enough to actually consider leaving her son for him. I could get her feeling desperate/trapped and thinking she'd never see her son again and giving herself permission, so to speak, then, but that wasn't how it seemed to be written.

But Joseph's suggestion that her son could just wait and see her eventually was unfathomably stupid. The kid isn't a teenager who is old enough to understand what was going on or was just a couple of years away from being able to make his own decisions. Joseph was asking her to miss literally half of her son's childhood and was asking for her to leave him when he is quite young and unable to understand why she was going. If Sophie seriously considered that and didn't think for a minute that her odious husband would spend those ensuing years punishing her son for her decision and turning him against her, she's even dumber than Joseph. 

[Shanna Marie]

23 hours ago, Notwisconsin said:

Now if you're talking about high-class soaps, the war between George the Fourth and the "Queen" would have been totally fun!!!!

Really, the children of George III provide seasons worth of soap opera material. George was a control freak about who they could marry (and even got a law passed saying that members of the royal family couldn't marry without the king's permission). That had a lot to do with the succession crisis that led to Victoria getting the crown. Most of the boys either had long-term mistresses who functioned essentially as wives -- openly serving as hostesses in their homes -- or had marriages that were considered illegal because the king didn't give permission. The girls were more or less shut up in the castle (they referred to it as "the nunnery") but apparently got up to plenty of hijinks with the various military officers serving at court. At least one had at least one illegitimate child who was "adopted" by the father. Meanwhile, the princes just about all had a bunch of illegitimate children who were openly acknowledged. The problem was that none of them had legal marriages or legitimate offspring until Charlotte died, and then the sons were all in a race to get married and have kids. At least by that point they were under the Regency, and their brother allowed them to marry. A TV show could have a lot of fun with the princesses and the officers sneaking around and the princes and all their mistresses, and then the race to find wives.

As for this show, I'm afraid I gave up. I reached the point of realizing that I wasn't enjoying it anymore and didn't care about these characters who no longer had anything to do with history. It was rather liberating turning it off in mid episode a couple of weeks ago.

[Morlock]

Is anyone else disappointed that so little time was spent on the exhibition? I know it was just a backdrop but at the same time it all seemed wasted both set wise as well as story. When I read about the exhibition there were all sorts of interesting people who attended that could have been featured. Maybe I was just bored with the Duchess and the Footman but it would have been good to see a little more about the exhibition itself. 

[andromeda331]

59 minutes ago, Morlock said:

Is anyone else disappointed that so little time was spent on the exhibition? I know it was just a backdrop but at the same time it all seemed wasted both set wise as well as story. When I read about the exhibition there were all sorts of interesting people who attended that could have been featured. Maybe I was just bored with the Duchess and the Footman but it would have been good to see a little more about the exhibition itself. 

I was too. I wanted to see more of the exhibition. All of the different pavilions and people from different countries. But they might not have been able to recreate it all.

[Popples]

2 hours ago, Zella said:

But Joseph's suggestion that her son could just wait and see her eventually was unfathomably stupid. The kid isn't a teenager who is old enough to understand what was going on or was just a couple of years away from being able to make his own decisions. Joseph was asking her to miss literally half of her son's childhood and was asking for her to leave him when he is quite young and unable to understand why she was going. If Sophie seriously considered that and didn't think for a minute that her odious husband would spend those ensuing years punishing her son for her decision and turning him against her, she's even dumber than Joseph.

 

Since the Duke is a massive prick, he would absolutely punish their son, but if he were smarter he would realize that he wouldn't need to. All he would have to do is play up the "Mummy abandoned you for a servant" and the resentment would most likely build up on its own.

The fact that Joseph didn't think that her son would begrudge her leaving was astonishingly moronic to me.

[Zella]

10 minutes ago, Popples said:

Since the Duke is a massive prick, he would absolutely punish their son, but if he were smarter he would realize that he wouldn't need to. All he would have to do is play up the "Mummy abandoned you for a servant" and the resentment would most likely build up on its own.

The fact that Joseph didn't think that her son would begrudge her leaving was astonishingly moronic to me.

Yes, I think Sophie would be in for a rude awakening if she returned years later, expecting her son to be relieved to see her and she instead realized he despised her and actually looked on his father as "the good parent."

I'm not sure Daisy Goodwin set out to write Joseph as a complete dunderhead, but if so, she succeeded magnificently. He really is an idiot. 

[Morlock]

1 hour ago, andromeda331 said:

I was too. I wanted to see more of the exhibition. All of the different pavilions and people from different countries. But they might not have been able to recreate it all.

Yeah showing everything would have been impossible but a little more depth would have been nice. I read that Samuel Colt attended for example that would have been interesting. Especially as I found the Footman and Sophie meeting in such a public place with the Duke there as well to be insane. 

1 hour ago, Popples said:

Since the Duke is a massive prick, he would absolutely punish their son, but if he were smarter he would realize that he wouldn't need to. All he would have to do is play up the "Mummy abandoned you for a servant" and the resentment would most likely build up on its own.

The fact that Joseph didn't think that her son would begrudge her leaving was astonishingly moronic to me.

It was insane to have them meet in a public place like that as well, especially with the Duke there! I still think Joseph is hoping for a pay day at some point. Surely Sophie's lineage doesn't just get negated that easily? I must have phased in and out throughout the show, how old is Sophie's son? I recall Joseph saying that he would be a man soon, Sophie also doesn't seem to see him much anyway. 

It's possible the son has already been fed lies by the Duke anyway and is also ignored by his father anyway. 

Overall though it seems like an easy way of setting up their possible escape to America, another distraction from the main theme of the show, you know, what's her name 😉

Edited March 6, 2019 by Morlock

[Zella]

6 minutes ago, Morlock said:

how old is Sophie's son? I recall Joseph saying that he would be a man soon

That's what confused me. I am not the greatest at guessing kids' ages, but he looked pretty young to me, like no older than 8 or 9, but I wouldn't be surprised if he were a little younger. I don't know what kind of crack Joseph is smoking, but that kid was nowhere near as grown up/nearing maturity as he seemed to be suggesting. 

[Zella]

I just found a script for season 3, episode 3. Her son has just been sent to boarding school, and she says he is 6. I believe that is set in 1848-ish, so fast forward to the exhibition and the kid is 9-ish. 

[Morlock]

Just now, Zella said:

That's what confused me. I am not the greatest at guessing kids' ages, but he looked pretty young to me, like no older than 8 or 9, but I wouldn't be surprised if he were a little younger. I don't know what kind of crack Joseph is smoking, but that kid was nowhere near as grown up/nearing maturity as he seemed to be suggesting. 

Wow so even by the standards of the time he wouldn't be considered an adult for another 10 years given his social class. He would be close to being an adult if he was working class though as he may already have a job! Not sure if Joseph is just seeing it from his own class or he is just trying to put a rosy spin on it to get Sophie to run off with him. Given Sophie seems able to live in the Palace if she wants to, I can't see the point in running away for her. 

[Zella]

1 minute ago, Morlock said:

Wow so even by the standards of the time he wouldn't be considered an adult for another 10 years given his social class. He would be close to being an adult if he was working class though as he may already have a job! Not sure if Joseph is just seeing it from his own class or he is just trying to put a rosy spin on it to get Sophie to run off with him. Given Sophie seems able to live in the Palace if she wants to, I can't see the point in running away for her. 

That's actually a really good point that as someone from a working-class background, he might have a different view of what constitutes a coming-of-age age. I interpreted it as just a really desperate attempt for him to manipulate Sophie, despite all of his talk of love, since he would have known her son was important to her. 

[Morlock]

12 minutes ago, Zella said:

That's actually a really good point that as someone from a working-class background, he might have a different view of what constitutes a coming-of-age age. I interpreted it as just a really desperate attempt for him to manipulate Sophie, despite all of his talk of love, since he would have known her son was important to her. 

I think there needs to be leeway for that although I doubt the writer was thinking that deeply. Even into the following century you see very young males enlisting in the armed services and being accepted. I agree, I think it was an attempt at manipulation, trying to get her to think about her own future as her son will be a man soon according to him and may choose to go abroad etc himself leaving her alone anyway. I think it will be interesting to see how their romance develops as it seems the Palace know about it and even Joseph's boss is on his side now. And Victoria;s support would make it all the more easy. 

[Zella]

1 minute ago, Morlock said:

I think there needs to be leeway for that although I doubt the writer was thinking that deeply. Even into the following century you see very young males enlisting in the armed services and being accepted. I agree, I think it was an attempt at manipulation, trying to get her to think about her own future as her son will be a man soon according to him and may choose to go abroad etc himself leaving her alone anyway. I think it will be interesting to see how their romance develops as it seems the Palace know about it and even Joseph's boss is on his side now. And Victoria;s support would make it all the more easy. 

One thing tracking down the script got me to thinking about too--because the time lapse isn't always very clear--is at this point Sophie has apparently been separated from her son for long stretches for going on three years after he was initially shipped off to boarding school. I hadn't realized it had been that long since the Duke made that decision. 

It would not be unreasonable to assume her son would be spending the rest of his education at boarding school, regardless of whether his dad is a jerk, simply because that was what was expected of young men of his class. 

So, though I still find it unbelievable as written and acted that she'd be so willing to abandon her son, I could see how theoretically she might think he is lost to her anyway simply because of the amount of time he'd been gone and the fact that wouldn't be changing any time soon. I don't really see that swaying her, but I can now see how she might try to talk herself into seeing it that way.