S03.E05: If You Have Ghosts

[formerlyfreedom]

Quote

Wayne finds himself in a no-win situation as new clues emerge in the Purcell case. Roland wrestles with how to keep evidence secure as lawyers demand a new investigation. Amelia finds her relationship with Wayne imperiled by her writing aspirations and his jealousy.

Airing Sunday, February 3, 2019

[formerlyfreedom]

This will be available via streaming platforms starting Friday, February 1, FYI.

[Penman61]

Really enjoyed this episode. 

Ok, so things are moving right along:

• Woodard was indeed the man wrongly convicted (actually convicted in court? posthumously?) of killing the kids.
• Julie is alive, thinks Tom is not her Dad, was taken by someone, is still being kept by that someone (?)
• "Getting the gang back together to solve crimes" now happening in TWO timelines; looking forward to TD Season 4 when it's 2 heads in formaldehyde in 2083 closing cold cases...

Will be a tad disappointed if "Children shuld laugh" turns out to be a Huge Clue.  I mean, Lucy DID see the ransom note, right? And used the phrase with Amelia AFTER she saw it, right?  Chronology and linguistic forensics (the phrase is not that specific) workin' against you, Wayne, IMHO.

Also, detective receptionist:  Maybe don't let crime victims wander around the premises where they might see crime photos of missing/dead/murdered loved ones kthxbai...

Everyone rightly praising Ali, but McNairy is the real deal here, too.  Wow.

Edited February 1, 2019 by Penman61

[thuganomics85]

That last scene might have been some of the best acting out of all of the seasons (and maybe even television overall.)  Of course, Mahershala Ali is amazing, but I'm really loving Stephen Dorff as Roland.  But both of them were perfection here, with all of the flipping back and forth between emotions, and how Roland seems to have issues with everything that went down with Wayne and him, but he just can't bring himself to fully hate him due to their history and that Wayne truly doesn't remember what he did.  And there are times where I honestly forget both of these actors aren't in their seventies.  The make-up job and the way they carry themselves are spot-on.  Great show.

So, Woodard/Trash Man was who they pinned Bill's death on, after finding some of the kids items.  I guess we'll see if the killer was watching and just snuck in and planted them there, or if the law themselves were somehow involved.  I did like how the shootout actually ended very quickly, and it was more about the final showdown between Wayne and Woodard, and Woodard basically pulling a suicide by cop with Wayne.  I can see how that particular death would effect Wayne more than his kills in the Vietnam War.

Looks like Tom wasn't Julie's birth father and Wayne also thinks that Lucy was the one who had sent those notes.  Hmm..

I really can't make heads or tails with Wayne and Amelia.  Sometimes they barely act like they can be in the same room together, but then other times, they seem like they get and understand one another in a way no one else can.

Definitely can understand why it pisses 90s Wayne off that the case is being used as a pissing match between Brett Cullen and Jon Tenney's characters.  Ah, politics!

[Jextella]

I can't watch for bit.  What happens to Freddie Burns they arrested last episode?  Does he walk?

Edited February 2, 2019 by Jextella

[shapeshifter]

Every part of this episode could be an Emmy submission. After seeing this episode, every other show's actors, directors, writers, makeup artists, etc. will throw in the towel. Especially starting when Roland addresses old Wayne as "Purple," but also the scenes with Wayne and Amelia.

 

 

2 hours ago, thuganomics85 said:

I really can't make heads or tails with Wayne and Amelia.  Sometimes they barely act like they can be in the same room together, but then other times, they seem like they get and understand one another in a way no one else can

I can totally get Wayne and Amelia's relationship even though it's not like any of mine were—well, not entirely—which to me is fantastic storytelling—when you don't have to have experienced it personally in order to comprehend it.

 

 

My my guess based on the reveal about the note:

Spoiler

Lucy "sold" Julie to a man purporting to be Julie's biological father.

 

 

1 hour ago, Jextella said:

I can't watch for bit.  What happens to the teen they arrested last episode?  He walks?

Apparently. And he has a seemingly nice family, but he's bitter and resentful towards Hays.

[clack]

Ok, let's see if I got this right.

The cop who disappears from the 1990 investigation is the same cop who finds the evidence linking Woodward to the children in 1980. And this same cop (I forget his name --Harris?) is the figure who shows up among the Viet Cong ghosts haunting Wayne. Apparently Wayne and Roland go vigilante and kill him in 1990. Do they also execute the cousin?

Is this the same conspiracy of ritual children murderers from Season 1, the cabal of rich men like Tuttle? Is Hoyt a member of this cabal?

Edited February 2, 2019 by clack

[shapeshifter]

1 minute ago, clack said:

Ok, let's see if I got this right.

The cop who disappears from the 1990 investigation is the same cop who finds the evidence linking Woodward to the children. And this same cop (I forget his name --Harris?) is the figure who shows up among the Viet Cong ghosts haunting Wayne. Apparently Wayne and Roland go vigilante and kill him in 1990. Do they also execute the cousin?

That does fit. 

 

2 minutes ago, clack said:

Is this the same conspiracy of ritual children murderers from Season 1, the cabal of rich men like Tuttle? Is Hoyt a member of this cabal?

I seriously doubt there's any connection between this season and the first beyond style, genre, and general geographic location. Okay, that's a lot, but I still don't think the stories are connected.

[surfer]

With regards to Julie's call to the police tip line: Tom wasn't the only man on camera during that press conference...

Expanding on that...

Spoiler

Here's a VERY VERY spoilery article from Vanity Fair that lays out a pretty plausible theory for what happened/happens this season

Vanity Fair

Edited February 2, 2019 by surfer

[clack]

Ali is giving a great performance, but 1980 and 1990 Hays is just not as compelling a character as Rust Cohle. This season it feels like both main detectives are more like Marty -- competent, plodding, uninspired, with none of Rust's eccentric brilliance and craziness. Or more like 2 Dr Watson's, absent Rust's Sherlock Holmes, if you will.

2015 Hays, however, I do find to be intriguing. It's as if his loss of memory has also stripped away some of his barriers that made him such a closed-off, one-note character in the earlier time periods. He smiles, he cries, he shows fear. He's looking back at the past, and at himself, for the first time in a life that only looked forward, looking back before both the memory of his past and his very self disappear.

Edited February 2, 2019 by clack

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, clack said:

2015 Hays, however, I do find to be intriguing. It's as if his loss of memory has also stripped away some of his barriers that made him such a closed-off, one-note character in the earlier time periods. He smiles, he cries, he shows fear. He's looking back at the past, and at himself, for the first time in a life that only looked forward, looking back before both the memory of his past and his very self disappear.

This portrayal gives back dignity to the elderly and those afflicted with dementia--which TV and movies so often only find useful for scorn and humor.

Edited February 2, 2019 by shapeshifter

[scrb]

I think Dorff’s big voice from a little man works more effectively with the wig.

The older Roland seems frail but still has the big voice and bravado.  It just seems incongruous.

And man Wayne has a huge chip on his shoulder doesn’t he, in the 90s time line?  A lot of it is having his career derailed for most of the 10 years since the original investigation.  

But he’s rough on Amelia.  Just a very unpleasant person to be around.  He didn’t provide a happier home for his kids than the Purcells did for their kids.

[Razzberry]

And we haven't even found out yet what Hays did.  That's more of a mystery to me.  At this point there's so many red herrings that I'm not gonna drive myself crazy trying to figure it out.  In season one my home office looked like Rust's storage locker, lol.  

I'm liking this a lot more than #2,  mainly due to Ali, but agree it's not as nearly as compelling as 1.  They followed that formula to a surprising degree.   I predict season 4 will be about a troubled but soulful loner who partners with affable cop with a drinking problem to solve some child murders that hint of conspiracy at the top level.

[ShadowHunter]

The end scene between Roland and Wayne. Wayne lost with no memories and Roland seemed so alone. I really hope Stephen does not left out of Awards love.

Woodard was the one convicted I assumed the one they were talking about was still in jail not dead. 

Felt bad for Tom having to listen too that phone call. 

Roland mentioned what they did in 1990? Did they kill someone? 

Edited February 4, 2019 by ShadowHunter

[meira.hand]

1 hour ago, ShadowHunter said:

Woodard was the one convicted I assumed the one they were talking about was still in jail not dead. 

Me too. I was really surprised about this. So many characters and names. I am sure the lawyer representing the Woodard children mentioned the name, I just did not connect it with the "garbage man". This may explain why the investigation was dropped the second time. Clearing the name of a dead man does not carry the same urgency as releasing a possibly innocent man from prison.

[Joimiaroxeu]

That shoot out was horrific. I was not ready.

I'm confused. Did they convict Woodard posthumously?

[ShadowHunter]

25 minutes ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

That shoot out was horrific. I was not ready.

I'm confused. Did they convict Woodard posthumously?

Yes they did. They found the evidence around his house but like Wayne said he thinks it was planted. 

[Penman61]

46 minutes ago, ShadowHunter said:

Yes they did. They found the evidence around his house but like Wayne said he thinks it was planted. 

Ok, don't want to derail the thread too much, but is posthumous conviction achieved via a trial?  Or some other administrative way?

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

That shoot out was horrific. I was not ready.

The way Trash Man/Woodard picked off the cops by shooting them in the head was very reminiscent to me of Vietnam war footage--which fit with Woodard being a vet. 

40 minutes ago, ShadowHunter said:

1 hour ago, Joimiaroxeu said:

I'm confused. Did they convict Woodard posthumously?

Yes they did. They found the evidence around his house but like Wayne said he thinks it was planted. 

Specifically, we saw Will's bright red schoolbook backpack being found under the floorboards of Woodard's charred out home. Wayne points out that it should have been obvious that the backpack would not have been so "pristine" after the explosion and fire--it had to have been planted afterwards.

[ShadowHunter]

19 minutes ago, shapeshifter said:

The way Trash Man/Woodard picked off the cops by shooting them in the head was very reminiscent to me of Vietnam war footage--which fit with Woodard being a vet. 

Specifically, we saw Will's bright red schoolbook backpack being found under the floorboards of Woodard's charred out home. Wayne points out that it should have been obvious that the backpack would not have been so "pristine" after the explosion and fire--it had to have been planted afterwards.

They also found a sweater that was dirty though.

[AimingforYoko]

On 2/1/2019 at 5:38 PM, thuganomics85 said:

That last scene might have been some of the best acting out of all of the seasons (and maybe even television overall.)  Of course, Mahershala Ali is amazing, but I'm really loving Stephen Dorff as Roland.

Co-Sign on the two-hander end scene. Dorff definitely held his end up.

[WaltersHair]

Still digesting, but Stephen Dorff has made me see him through new eyes. I think I could listen to those two actors read a phone book for an hour and I can't remember the last time I thought such a thing.

Edited February 4, 2019 by WaltersHair

[Rockfish]

Not only was the aged-men makeup done so well, but the portrayal of a troubled marriage is spot-on. I found myself feeling angry for Amelia having to deal with Wayne’s passive-aggressive, resentful comments and related to the overwhelming urge she had to call him out on one of his comments even though it definitely was not the correct time or place (they were at Roland’s house). Now, I loved season 1, but I’m enjoying this one just as much—it is quieter and less flashy; however, the realistic dialogue and texture created by the three different timelines has grabbed me hard.

[ghoulina]

Don't have streaming, so just now watched. 

Ali's best moments this week? His face when Hays had to shoot Woodard, and the scary scene when he couldn't find his family. Alzheimer's is a motherfucker.

I did agree with Hats when he called Amelia a tourist, though. I've been feeling it since last week. She doesn't really respect his professional boundaries, just keeps pushing. 

Anyone else pick up on another chicken connection?  Lori studied "poultry science"....or some such. 

 

I'm just not feeling the "children should laugh" thing as a clue. It seems like a ubiquitous enough phrase, many people could say that. Or maybe after seeing the note it stuck with the mom. Maybe she was like, "Damn, that's true. They should laugh. And mine didn't laugh enough."

I mean, if that's the direction they're going, fine. But I'm gonna need more than that. 

 

That call from "Julie" was chilling. At first when she talked about the man on TV, I thought she might mean the chief or DA or whomever. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Inside the episode:

[SHD]

50 minutes ago, ghoulina said:

That call from "Julie" was chilling. At first when she talked about the man on TV, I thought she might mean the chief or DA or whomever. 

But she did eventually say "That man pretending to be my father," didn't she?  

I loved when Stephen Dorff yelled down, "Looking good, Purple. Who's that old man you got with you?" - pretending to think Hays' son was him. The immediate warmth, loss of reticence, and expression of "It's going to be OK to see him" that Ali conveyed...brilliant.

Interesting that the episode title uses the name of a Roky Erickson song.

Edited February 4, 2019 by SHD

[tennisgurl]

That whole last sequence with old Wayne and Roland was just breathtaking in acting and writing. The actors did such great work, I really did have to remind myself that these were not actually old guys and were actors that I am familiar with wearing makeup and plating much older than they actually are. For awhile I was worried that Roland was dead in 2015, but it turns out he is alive and kicking, is lonely and clearly filled with regret over whatever happened in the past.

So the plot thickens! Julie is apparently running around the streets somewhere in the 90s, and is convinced that her father isnt actually her father, although I think that there is something way weirder going on with someone else who was in that room. The politician who ushered Tom off the stage really fast? She mentioned her dad, but does that really mean Tom? From how she was talking and from what the guy said about her, she was pretty messed up and not there mentally. Maybe she was traumatized be whatever happened to her, and it messed her up so badly she never came back home, because she had no idea what home was anymore. Or she couldn't go home, because someone was still holding her prisoner, or controlling her through Stockholm Syndrome or something? I dont know, but some real shit went down with Julie and Tom in the 90s apparently. 

So another reference to the chicken industry, with Roland's 90s girlfriend (the woman from the church I think!) having studied poultry. I have no idea if this is actually connected to the case, or if its a weird motif, or maybe both, but it makes me want to start printing out pictures of chickens and putting strings around them on some kind of deranged poultry based murder board. 

There is a lot going on here, but I am so really impressed with its portrayal of dementia. Wayne is clearly losing time and struggling with keeping events in the past separate from the present (that scene where he was stumbling through his house looking for his daughter and found his 90s era family just killed me), but is still very much a person with agency and is still working his ass off to keep it together for just a bit longer, to close up this one dark chapter in his life before he goes. Its just so affecting and hard to watch, in the best kind of way,

[shapeshifter]

28 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

So the plot thickens!

Or we could say: The plot chickens! 
Kidding, of course, but the chicken thing could just be an economic characteristic of the locale--but that doesn't mean that terrible things don't happen down at the hatchery.

 

28 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

but I am so really impressed with its portrayal of dementia. Wayne is clearly losing time and struggling with keeping events in the past separate from the present . . . but is still very much a person with agency

Is Alzheimer's-afflicted Wayne's agency owing in large part to his son--who, unlike some concerned children, does not have him institutionalized--or is it more owing to there not being such institutions in that region? 

Edited February 4, 2019 by shapeshifter

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Clip: another stray

[LoveLeigh]

Apologize for what?

[Accidental Martyr]

I was pleasantly surprised to hear “Desperados Under the Eaves” by Warren Zevon during the credits. One of my all time favorite songs.

[ghoulina]

9 hours ago, SHD said:

But she did eventually say "That man pretending to be my father," didn't she?

Yes, she did. That's when I dropped my conspiracy theory. LOL

[Eyes High]

That last scene between Roland and Wayne was magnificent. Such fantastic chemistry between Ali and Dorff.

Man, 1990 Wayne was a disrespectful asshole to Amelia. Now, I don't think he's necessarily that far off the mark with his observation that Amelia takes a voyeuristic interest in the case and is using other people's pain to improve her own life--judging from the fact that Lucy's breakdown in front of Amelia is lovingly detailed in the book as Wayne realizes in 2015--but that's his wife and the mother of his children. That's shit you just don't say. 

Dan O'Brien disappeared in 1987, so I doubt Wayne or Roland had anything to do with that. This Harris James cop, on the other hand...

Quote

2015 Hays, however, I do find to be intriguing. It's as if his loss of memory has also stripped away some of his barriers that made him such a closed-off, one-note character in the earlier time periods. He smiles, he cries, he shows fear. He's looking back at the past, and at himself, for the first time in a life that only looked forward, looking back before both the memory of his past and his very self disappear.

I think Hays' dementia is what's keeping this story from being a pretty standard, rote detective yarn.

Edited February 4, 2019 by Eyes High

[shapeshifter]

6 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

Apologize for what?

Well, in most yarns it would be that the best friend slept with his woman, but this isn't most stories.

[Ottis]

11 hours ago, ghoulina said:

At first when she talked about the man on TV, I thought she might mean the chief or DA or whomever. 

I think she might. In fact, there is clearly some kind of conspiracy reaching to high levels. I'm just trying to figure out who is on on it. And there is a secondary secret with Hays and West, I assume tied to the larger conspiracy. But I won't speculate further.

7 hours ago, DakotaLavender said:

Apologize for what?

Wondered the same thing. BTW. I actually find these time lines indulgent. The story would have been tighter real time, IMO.

This was the first episode where I decided I didn't like Hays (pre 2015). He was wound tight, and not simply because he was a black man in Arkansas.

[Drogo]

8 minutes ago, Ottis said:

This was the first episode where I decided I didn't like Hays

Yep.

Despite 8000 copies of it in his home, he never read her fucking book... you can go shave your back now, Hays.  

Also, his bedroom game was very creepy and predatory even in the 80s. There are ways to love a woman that don't involve walls.

[DarkRaichu]

The acting in this episode was superb as many pointed out.

I also found the use of time jumps to show Wayne's dementia to be excellent.  I love the sequence where 90's Wayne went upstairs with his family, cut to 2015 Wayne looking for his family amongst the rooms only to see the 90s family from outside of the master bedroom.  Then we went back to 90s Wayne's POV looking at the bedroom door as if he looked at his future self, looking at his family, then looking at the roof window, only to see the reflection of his 80s self.  Brilliant!

Although now I wonder how much of Wayne's memory actually happened versus his wishful thinking.

 

47 minutes ago, Drogo said:

There are ways to love a woman that don't involve walls.

Maybe she liked creepy? Per last episode, them couple seemed to still enjoy walls in the 90s ;)

 

18 hours ago, ShadowHunter said:

They also found a sweater that was dirty though.

Half burned sweater found in the trash.  Which was most likely planted as well.  That thing should have been burned all the way given how deep in the ash it was located when the cop found it. 

[pasdetrois]

Quote

And we haven't even found out yet what Hays did.  That's more of a mystery to me.  At this point there's so many red herrings that I'm not gonna drive myself crazy trying to figure it out. 

I was a bit lost after watching last night and had to run over here to discover what's going on.

Ali and Dorff: acting-chemistry, Certified Gold.

My relatives had Alzheimers, so I'm greatly appreciating Ali's performance.

[Shenanigan]

Can someone refresh my memory as to who Hoyt is?

[Drogo]

Just now, Shenanigan said:

Can someone refresh my memory as to who Hoyt is?

Hoyt Foods is the large chicken processing plant located in town.  Lucy worked there on the chicken line, as well as Mr. Whitehead our one-eyed friend from last week. 

They suspiciously offered a reward for the safe return of Julie Purcell despite their foundation being founded for children's medical bills and not missing children. 

[Shenanigan]

Ah, right! Thank you!

[Tighthead]

As much as I’m enjoying the acting, I’m getting a little bored. 

I’m generally okay with slower moving shows like Saul and The Americans. I’m finding that with three timelines there are too many hints/loose ends/teases.  For me, it’s overweighted on style over substance. I’m not really that compelled by the mystery of the kids  

Great finish with Zevon though.  

[kicksave]

Very compelling storyline and acting is superb...my mother-in-law suffered from Alzheimer's and Ali's rendering of Wayne in the throes of the disease is spot on. Loving Stephen Dorff and his character. The love/hate relationship between Hays and Roland is well done. You see the deep friendship and bond that they have but it is flawed and fragile. Hays is not capable of maintaining deep relationships. He continually disappoints the people that want reciprocation. Both men have difficulty with emotional intimacy with the women in their lives. They connect with each other on another level as so many men do with the men they work with or are friends with. Hays has so many demons from his war experience and the racial divides that he lives with everyday, it would be very difficult for him to have deep personal relationships. Also, Woodward was obviously a Native American but it is never inferred or referenced as such...he and Hays have the prejudices of the majority population of this small town to deal with...they are always targets for racial profiling and bigotry. 

[ShadowHunter]

53 minutes ago, Tighthead said:

As much as I’m enjoying the acting, I’m getting a little bored. 

I’m generally okay with slower moving shows like Saul and The Americans. I’m finding that with three timelines there are too many hints/loose ends/teases.  For me, it’s overweighted on style over substance. I’m not really that compelled by the mystery of the kids  

Great finish with Zevon though.  

I enjoy the dynamic between Wayne and Roland and the mystery of the case. I am bored with the fights between Wayne and Amelia though. The acting is good but when it happens my attention drifts. 

[shapeshifter]

1 hour ago, kicksave said:

Hays has so many demons from his war experience and the racial divides that he lives with everyday, it would be very difficult for him to have deep personal relationships. Also, Woodward was obviously a Native American but it is never inferred or referenced as such...he and Hays have the prejudices of the majority population of this small town to deal with...they are always targets for racial profiling and bigotry. 

Hays and Woodard's verbal exchange right before Hays shot and killed Woodard indicated that Woodard had chosen to set up Hays as the cop who would have to discharge the fatal bullet in Woodard's suicide-by-cop. I'm assuming there was a reason for this. I guess it was related to their shared Vietnam experience and maybe also their shared minority status, but I can't quite parse Woodard's rationale. Any thoughts?

[Pop Tart]

3 hours ago, Tighthead said:

I’m generally okay with slower moving shows like Saul and The Americans. I’m finding that with three timelines there are too many hints/loose ends/teases.  For me, it’s overweighted on style over substance. I’m not really that compelled by the mystery of the kids  

 

2 hours ago, ShadowHunter said:

I enjoy the dynamic between Wayne and Roland and the mystery of the case. I am bored with the fights between Wayne and Amelia though. The acting is good but when it happens my attention drifts. 

I'm feeling a combination of both of these. I really enjoy moments of the show and some of the interactions between characters and the dialogue (especially between Wayne and Roland) is stellar and often powerful, but the jumps in time are just too frequent and are starting to make me resentful. I get the need for dramatic tension, but it's not even that the jumps interrupt the mystery, it's that they're interrupting my emotional connection to the characters. And this is exacerbated for me with Amelia and Wayne by the fact that I don't think she's been very well-developed. I get that much of what we know of her is colored by Wayne's memories, but the scenes are just too brief for me to get a true handle on her. And truly if there was not another scene of Wayne with his family (outside of his interactions with his adult son, don't mind those), but instead all the rest were work-based, I'd be fine with that. Whether it's Wayne with Roland or Wayne interviewing people, that's all good. In fact Julie's mom is the most interesting female character on the show and really she's only had a handful of scenes.

Of course now that I'm mulling it, I realize there are only like 4 women on the cast who have any kind of continuing roles: the mom, Roland's girlfriend Lori, Amelia and the documentary maker woman. 

Edited February 4, 2019 by Pop Tart

[WaltersHair]

Quote

Hays and Woodard's verbal exchange right before Hays shot and killed Woodard indicated that Woodard had chosen to set up Hays as the cop who would have to discharge the fatal bullet in Woodard's suicide-by-cop. I'm assuming there was a reason for this. I guess it was related to their shared Vietnam experience and maybe also their shared minority status, but I can't quite parse Woodard's rationale. Any thoughts?

I thought Woodard did it because Hays would understand what it is to be a targeted minority. And Hays would take no pleasure in killing him (the officers at the hospital joked that they wouldn't have given the man 2 seconds to change his mind and laughed). Woodard had a clear intent to kill Roland, and only stopped when Hays interrupted him.

I do find it disingenuous that Woodard's family is trying to assuage their guilt at not having any contact with him for years by trying to clear him. One thing the series has done well is showing how much blame there is to throw around when tragedy strikes and how much collateral damage is done.

I'm also wondering if the 'thing' Wayne did to Roland is a different occurrence than what they did 'together' in the woods.

HBO sure hates chicken processing plants of late.

[shapeshifter]

30 minutes ago, WaltersHair said:

I thought Woodard did it because Hays would understand what it is to be a targeted minority. And Hays would take no pleasure in killing him (the officers at the hospital joked that they wouldn't have given the man 2 seconds to change his mind and laughed). Woodard had a clear intent to kill Roland, and only stopped when Hays interrupted him.

I do find it disingenuous that Woodard's family is trying to assuage their guilt at not having any contact with him for years by trying to clear him. One thing the series has done well is showing how much blame there is to throw around when tragedy strikes and how much collateral damage is done.

I'm also wondering if the 'thing' Wayne did to Roland is a different occurrence than what they did 'together' in the woods.

HBO sure hates chicken processing plants of late.

This all fits, but the Vietnam vet-shared experience seems like an additional factor--even if just that Woodard could predict Hays' actions a little more closely.

[Gobi]

2 hours ago, shapeshifter said:

This all fits, but the Vietnam vet-shared experience seems like an additional factor--even if just that Woodard could predict Hays' actions a little more closely.

Could be that Woodard wanted his death to mean something to the man that killed him. He knew that the other officers probably would not be bothered by having killed him. Although, in real life, there are very few people who are not bothered by killing someone.

[maystone]

Wonderful episode in all three timelines. I like that the show isn't afraid to showcase what an absolute dick Wayne can be, and I admire Ali for throwing himself full throttle into all the different aspects of the character; his Wayne fills every frame. But Roland is much more my guy. I was so happy to see him in the third timeline but sad to see him alone and friendless. I'll be your friend! I would be happy to hang out on the porch sipping whiskey, watching the strays. The last scene between the two of them was my favorite from all of the True Detective episodes. From Wayne's laugh of relief and delight when Roland ranked on him for being old to the two of them tear-faced and resolved to patching up their partnership and their friendship, it was perfect.

Like some of you, I was surprised when Wayne leapt to the conclusion that Lucy wrote the ransom note. When I heard her use the same phrase, I thought she was admitting yet again that she was a crappy mother because it was not a happy home for those kids. And honestly, she was so distraught, depressed, and drunk at that time, that I don't think she had the wherewithal to literally piece together a fake ransom note. And at the time it was discovered, there's no way she was feeling that charitable towards Tom to do all that just to make him feel better. I don't buy it.

What I do think, though, is that Tom wasn't Julie's real father. Lucy's own mother was saying that the Lucy played around a lot while Tom was gone, and the gossip was that at least one of those kids wasn't his. I don't know if whoever took Julie is her father, either, or if he's someone who knew about the rumors and used it to his advantage. I was shocked when Julie said that they'd left Will "resting". Would she have been too young to realize that her brother was dead in that cave and not asleep, or did someone else kill Will after Julie was taken away? How many crimes are we dealing with here?

I'm also wondering if this Harris guy is the cop who never reported back that several residents had seen a man and a woman in the brown car circling around the area the night of the crime. And who removed the records of the fingerprints taken from the kids' toys. Not that Wayne and Roland had all of that info in 1990; Wayne heard about the couple in the brown car from the woman interviewing him in 2015, right? I could be confused on that.

Sp they've spent five episodes laying down clues and tidbits for us, but there are only three episodes left to pull it all together. I really hope that they pull this off, fill in all those blank spaces not just in Wayne's memory but in our understanding . Don't let us down, show.