Surviving R. Kelly

[junemeatcleaver]

The three night, six part documentary explores the numerous accusations against R&B singer R. Kelly and the impact on his alleged victim.  Starts January 3rd at 9:00 pm eastern on Lifetime.

[Liamsmom617]

No one else is watching this? Holy shit. Dude is an even sicker fuck than I thought. Guess it shouldn’t come as a surprise that both he and his younger brother claim to have been mokested by relatives starting when R. Kelly was young as 7. It explains a lot, though of course it’s not an excuse. 

[Catgyrl]

I'm watching right with ya! Jaw permanently dragging on the floor; just astounded at what I'm watching. That older brother is a piece of work, isn't he? 

[Liamsmom617]

I missed a lot so am watching the re-air now. Still baffled that this sick bastard isn’t behind bars. 

[junemeatcleaver]

That was very hard to watch and we're only finished with night one.

I don't understand why people were saying the doc was exploiting Aaliyah.  Aaliyah's story was part of the larger narrative of R. Kelly being a heinous predator, and it's a fact he married the girl when she was 15.  Why should that be glossed over?

To any victims who may be reading this, of R. Kelly or anyone else, I see you.  I believe you and care about you.

[Liamsmom617]

The younger brother tearing up as he admitted that he too had been molested as a child just killed me.

[Armchair Critic]

His tour manager/personal assistant helped to forge Aaliyah's age on the marriage license when she was only 15. There are so many people who are complicit. ACK! I am glad his older brother is in jail and I hope he stays there, he is terrible.

Still watching the reruns since I forgot it was on tonight....

Edited January 4, 2019 by Armchair Critic

[Brooklynista]

10 hours ago, Catgyrl said:

I'm watching right with ya! Jaw permanently dragging on the floor; just astounded at what I'm watching. That older brother is a piece of work, isn't he? 

He was really enjoying his time off the cellblock.

I've always been disgusted by Kelly's movements but last night I was enraged by how many people claimed to be eyewitnesses to his molesting young girls and said nothing. Not one anonymous call to the cops?

Jovanta or whatever the fuck her name was said she SAW Kelly and Aliyah having sex...did she alert her parents? Tell Aliyah's handlers? Or did she shut her mouth, go back to her bunk on the tour bus and continue to collect her paycheck?.

Our young girls don't stand a chance.

Edited January 4, 2019 by Brooklynista
Spelling matters.

[Rlb8031]

7 hours ago, Armchair Critic said:

His tour manager/personal assistant helped to forge Aaliyah's age on the marriage license when she was only 15. There are so many people who are complicit. ACK! I am glad his older brother is in jail and I hope he stays there, he is terrible.

Still watching the reruns since I forgot it was on tonight....

I so don't get this. You say that you helped create all the paperwork, then you say "she looked like she wanted me to talk to her", but you didn't think something was up? GTFOH! I could MAYBE understand this if the narrative was "She came to me and begged me to do it, told me how in love she was with him and how her family didn't understand". But straight up, your boy asked you and you did it while acknowledging that the girl didn't look like she wanted to get married? And you didn't see anything wrong with that? 

[Spartan Girl]

This was so disturbing.  That's all I have to say right now.

[Neurochick]

13 hours ago, Liamsmom617 said:

I missed a lot so am watching the re-air now. Still baffled that this sick bastard isn’t behind bars. 

I missed it last night and it wasn't on demand today, but it will be airing tonight starting at 7pm  Eastern time.  I started watching part 2 online (couldn't get part 1 for some reason).  What a sick fuck.  I remember hearing how nasty he was, way back when Aaliyah first came out.  The whole deal with her was that no one believed she was fifteen, because Kelly promoted her as much older.  I remember when they got married (I don't think it was in the US) and I thought, WTF, isn't she like 15???

Quote

Our young girls don't stand a chance.

Thank you for saying that.  It's like so many people knew what was going on.  I'd heard stories back in the 90's about him, that he hung around the high schools, and I was like, "why doesn't anybody call the cops on him?"  

I think a lot of people did know, but felt, "I'm not going to bring a black man down."  But I'm like,  "what about the black girls who are being abused by this sicko?"  

I'll answer my own question, why wasn't he jailed years ago?  Because he was making MONEY for the record companies, etc.  As soon as his records stopped selling, that's when all this started "coming out" even though it's been going on for years.

Edited January 4, 2019 by Neurochick

[UYI]

15 minutes ago, Neurochick said:

 I remember when they got married (I don't think it was in the US) 

It was; Ernest Owens posted a copy of their marriage certificate on Twitter last night, with her age being listed (falsely) as 18. They were married in Chicago.

Edited January 4, 2019 by UYI

[Sheenieb]

2 hours ago, Rlb8031 said:

I so don't get this. You say that you helped create all the paperwork, then you say "she looked like she wanted me to talk to her", but you didn't think something was up? GTFOH! I could MAYBE understand this if the narrative was "She came to me and begged me to do it, told me how in love she was with him and how her family didn't understand". But straight up, your boy asked you and you did it while acknowledging that the girl didn't look like she wanted to get married? And you didn't see anything wrong with that? 

Ugh, yes. This is why he was able to skate for so long. All of these adults around and they enabled his behavior. Aaliyah's parents/uncle/cops should've been called immediately! I truly hope that before Aaliyah died that she was in therapy. 

And his shitty brother saying how he likes older women and everyone has a preference. Um, the key difference here is your preference isn't illegal, sir. It would be one thing if Kells dated 22-year-olds. Still side-eye worthy, but not illegal. He's out here destroying children's lives and ... nothing. Let's just all continue to step in the name of love.

What's even more heartbreaking, despite the obvious, is the fact that these aspiring singers/entertainers are probably shunning their talents because it's associated with a predator. Who knows what could've been with Lizzette Martinez and Sparkle's niece, etc, if they only had the right influences around. 

[Neurochick]

1 hour ago, UYI said:

It was; Ernest Owens posted a copy of their marriage certificate on Twitter last night, with her age being listed (falsely) as 18. They were married in Chicago.

Thanks for that, I always thought they got married overseas.  

 

1 hour ago, Sheenieb said:

And his shitty brother saying how he likes older women and everyone has a preference. Um, the key difference here is your preference isn't illegal, sir. It would be one thing if Kells dated 22-year-olds. Still side-eye worthy, but not illegal. He's out here destroying children's lives and ... nothing. Let's just all continue to step in the name of love.

What's even more heartbreaking, despite the obvious, is the fact that these aspiring singers/entertainers are probably shunning their talents because it's associated with a predator. Who knows what could've been with Lizzette Martinez and Sparkle's niece, etc, if they only had the right influences around. 

Yeah, when his brother said that, I was like, "there's a HUGE difference there, bro."  

Here's the thing; lots of men probably are attracted to teen girls, but most of them don't ACT on it.  That's the difference, R. Kelly ACTED on it.  That's what makes him disgusting.  

I also agreed with the therapist who spoke about the power dynamic.  The main reason why the girls were attracted to R. Kelly was because he was a powerful celebrity, an artist who promised to make these young girls stars, what they got was abuse and humiliation.

[junemeatcleaver]

Quote

Jovanta or whatever the fuck her name was said she SAW Kelly and Aliyah having sex...did she alert her parents? Tell Aliyah's handlers? Or did she shut her mouth, go back to her bunk on the tour bus and continue to collect her paycheck?.

We don't know how controlling and demanding R. Kelly was to that girl.  I can't hold her to same level of accountability as the grown-ass men who were forging documents for Kelly to marry a little girl and bringing him girls.  That girls parents would have probably told her to shut her mouth if she tried to tell and there's endless speculation over how much or little Aaliyah's own parents knew. 

[TiffanyNichelle]

I still remember being in high school and overhearing some girls talk about how old Aaliyah was and being shocked that she was my age. Then the whole marriage/abortion (or miscarriage) thing came out. I don't think at the time me or anyone I knew had MTV so it was all just rumors and no one would really believe it. I did think their relationship was weird. Looking back now, you can see how seriously young she looked at the time. This isn't "oh sh's tall for her age and looks a lot older", she was obviously a kid. And everyone let him get away with and keeps pretty much turning a blind eye to him. Because like the woman said in the first episode, no one cares when it's black girls. "Fast" and "she thinks she's grown" is always terms thrown out to excuse the shit that is done to or said about black girls. As soon as we start to develop adult looking bodies (or even before) we are treated as adults who should know things even in actually the mind hasn't gotten there yet.

I remember when the pee tape came out and I was talking with a friend of a friend who said she would beat her daughter if she did that and that's what she got for being grown and sneaking around with adult men. That the girl basically deserved to get sexually abused by R.Kelly. It was one of the most disturbing conversations and I had to stop talking to the woman because I was so disgusted.

The older brother Bruce makes my skin crawl. "He likes young girls, I like older women, we have all our preferences. We're possessive men, we don't like our women talking to other men." Is he trying to condemn him or support him?

Sparkle breaking down when she realized she put her niece in the path of a predator broke my heart. Then I thought, but you saw his wife asking permission to eat. Then again you don't immediately go from controlling piece of shit to child abuser.

[KeeperOfTheIce]

It is so disgusting!  How has he managed to go through a couple of trials and walk away from these charges?  So crazy how our justice system works.  

I have a relative who was 20 get into trouble with his 16y/o girlfriend - the girls parents went after him - he ended up spending 8 months in jail and now is required to register as a sex offender with the local police.  

It just seems like there is so much evidence that can be used against R.Kelly to put him away for good.   I guess since he was acquitted the first time nothing can happen unless new info/new victim come to light. 

I do have a lot of questions- where were the parents/responsible guardian of all these girls?  Where was the parents/guardian of Ailliaya? Did not one of them find it weird that a 30+ y/o man was interested in their kid?  I guess everyone had stars in their head and was hoping for that big entertainment break that he could possibly give them.

my heart breaks for all these women. I hope they are able to find some peace, resolution and/or justice with coming forward - they are so brave. 

[DearEvette]

I missed the first hour but caught the last three.  I have to go back because I missed all the Aaliyah stuff.

I was never an R. Kelly fan, not really.  His brand of R&B just wasn't what I liked.  But I had forgotten all about Sparkle and 'Be Careful' until she showed up on the show and I remember I LOVED that song.  Sigh.  I felt guilty for singing along with the snippet they had on the episode.

I had no idea R. Kelly was married or had kids.  His ex wife is just sad.  I At one point she said she was 'broken' and I believe it.

I didn't follow any of the trial closely just knew what was happening but since I was not a fan I had a sort of detached curiosity wondering if he'd be found guilty.  I had never seen the tape (thank God!) or really followed any of the details, so I am finding a lot of the stuff they are talking about quite shocking and new to me.

R. Kelly is a pedophile and a monster.  His enablers and al the people around him are just as complicit in all of this as he is.  His brother Bruce needs to stay his ass under the jail. 

But what I find the most sad is the wilful blindness of the people -- especially the black women -- who support him and are still even to this day supporting him while simultaneously condemning the young girls who are his victims.  No, can't be dismissed as 'fast' to absolve him of all blame.  They are being preyed upon and groomed by someone they've placed on a pedestal.  Some of the tweets are just (shakes head).  Not a lot, thank god, but it is kinda sad to see some people are more condemning of Sparkle and Andrea than they are of him. 

And don't get me started on Sparkle's sister and brother who pretty much guaranteed that he'd get off by claiming that wasn't her niece on that tape.  So now the world knows it was her and you lied for nothing and helped a pedophile to walk free.  It is sickening how blind people are to this man just because they like 'I Believe I Can Fly.'

I hope this has some lasting negative effect on him.  It is on national cable tv and these women's stories are all remarkably similar.  It is not limited to Chicago and a group of jurors who will vote him not guilty because they didn't like how the girls looked or what they were wearing.  And his people aren't going behind anyone's back and paying anyone off to be quiet.  Even if he still retains  his die hard fans, I can only hope other people in the industry start to shy away from being associated with him and it begins to hurt some of the bottom line that has protected him for so long.

[Dr.OO7]

16 hours ago, TiffanyNichelle said:

was talking with a friend of a friend who said she would beat her daughter if she did that and that's what she got for being grown and sneaking around with adult men. That the girl basically deserved to get sexually abused by R.Kelly. It was one of the most disturbing conversations and I had to stop talking to the woman because I was so disgusted.

This is why abuse of older girls (the middle teen to late teen set) is such a huge problem. No one in their right mind would think that a grown man fooling around with an eight year old was okay. But make the girl 14 or older and suddenly it's HER fault or she's just as responsible. I've stopped reading the Yahoo comments everytime there's another story about some adult man running off with some teenage girl because they're all a litany of "That little tramp has ruined this guys life", etc., and it's thoroughly sickening. I've never forgotten a Dear Abby letter where a woman openly admitted to kicking her sixteen years old daughter out because the girl had gotten pregnant by her boyfriend. Her main concern? Repairing her relationship with BOYFRIEND. The truly frightening thing is that the woman had another daughter still living at home and all I could wonder was what was going to happen to her.

[TiffanyNichelle]

It's a small thing but I like that they have two clinical psychologists as talking heads and one's a man, another's a woman and they're both black. And once again I need them to stop talking to Bruce. The younger brother should have taken the deal because he would have been rich?? What? Lie and say that you are a child abuser because hey, you'll get some money and maybe a record deal out of it? Bruce is just as sick as Robert.

[Robert Lynch]

14 hours ago, DearEvette said:

I missed the first hour but caught the last three.  I have to go back because I missed all the Aaliyah stuff.

I was never an R. Kelly fan, not really.  His brand of R&B just wasn't what I liked.  But I had forgotten all about Sparkle and 'Be Careful' until she showed up on the show and I remember I LOVED that song.  Sigh.  I felt guilty for singing along with the snippet they had on the episode.

I had no idea R. Kelly was married or had kids.  His ex wife is just sad.  I At one point she said she was 'broken' and I believe it.

I didn't follow any of the trial closely just knew what was happening but since I was not a fan I had a sort of detached curiosity wondering if he'd be found guilty.  I had never seen the tape (thank God!) or really followed any of the details, so I am finding a lot of the stuff they are talking about quite shocking and new to me.

R. Kelly is a pedophile and a monster.  His enablers and al the people around him are just as complicit in all of this as he is.  His brother Bruce needs to stay his ass under the jail. 

But what I find the most sad is the wilful blindness of the people -- especially the black women -- who support him and are still even to this day supporting him while simultaneously condemning the young girls who are his victims.  No, can't be dismissed as 'fast' to absolve him of all blame.  They are being preyed upon and groomed by someone they've placed on a pedestal.  Some of the tweets are just (shakes head).  Not a lot, thank god, but it is kinda sad to see some people are more condemning of Sparkle and Andrea than they are of him. 

And don't get me started on Sparkle's sister and brother who pretty much guaranteed that he'd get off by claiming that wasn't her niece on that tape.  So now the world knows it was her and you lied for nothing and helped a pedophile to walk free.  It is sickening how blind people are to this man just because they like 'I Believe I Can Fly.'

I hope this has some lasting negative effect on him.  It is on national cable tv and these women's stories are all remarkably similar.  It is not limited to Chicago and a group of jurors who will vote him not guilty because they didn't like how the girls looked or what they were wearing.  And his people aren't going behind anyone's back and paying anyone off to be quiet.  Even if he still retains  his die hard fans, I can only hope other people in the industry start to shy away from being associated with him and it begins to hurt some of the bottom line that has protected him for so long.

I was more of an Aaliyah fan. To this day, I still think he treated her badly. She deserves better than R. Kelly. The man made good music in the 90s, but there was always something wrong with him that I just can't put my finger on it. It must've been the rumors itself and the damn pee tape. That's why I never warmed up to R. Kelly's music. I could listen to other R&B artists from the 90s, but R. Kelly is one that if heard that song before, I don't want to hear it again.

[Emmeline]

“Sickening” that is all I can say on every level!  I just finished watching episode 4 and I am enraged.  I live in the Chicago area and remember being stupified after hearing the not guilty verdict.  Apparently Kelly went right back to his pedophilia after the trial.  In my opinion, R. Kelly’s atrocious behavior is far worse than Harvey Weinstein.  I just cannot understand how he has gotten away with these crimes for all of these years.  I haven’t been the biggest Lifetime fan, but I applaud them for this series.  I hope someone comes forward to put him and anyone that was accomplice to his villainous acts behind bars for a very long time.

[TimetoShine]

I’m stunned because I had no idea he was on trial and that these things were happening. Although I wasn’t a huge fan, as a kid (a little black girl) I sang along to “Step in the Name of Love” and etc.

I’m horrified and disgusted that so many people were around and helping him abuse girls that were my age. 

Edited January 5, 2019 by TimetoShine

[DearEvette]

21 hours ago, KeeperOfTheIce said:

do have a lot of questions- where were the parents/responsible guardian of all these girls?  Where was the parents/guardian of Ailliaya? Did not one of them find it weird that a 30+ y/o man was interested in their kid?  I guess everyone had stars in their head and was hoping for that big entertainment break that he could possibly give them.

The one thing I LOVED in the part 4 episode was Dominique’s mother hearing about her daughter being at his house and immediately rolling up there and calling the police.  Only to be told they couldn’t do anything because she’s 17 and that is the age of consent in IL.  But by the looks of her she is not the type to back down.  When her talking head segment came on my hysband said “she looks like she’s still ready to kick his ass all by herself.”

Edited January 5, 2019 by DearEvette

[Angelsmom1009]

I debated on watching this because I knew it was going to be triggering as hell...and it has been...but the one thing I am surprised at is how unsurprised I am at the extent of this pig’s abuse. I’ve never been an R.Kelly fan...I’m a teenager of the 90s, and a Black woman, so his music was played heavily on every radio and at every house party or event I went to, but I never really connected to it like most of my peers did. There was just something about him that seemed “off” that I couldn’t put my finger on. Then the Aaliyah thing happened, and at the time no one really “knew” how young she was (which we now know she was deliberately marketed that way), and my side eyeing of him increased. Confirmation came with the pee tape, and I was like “Yup, that’s it.” I haven’t voluntarily listened to his music since. 

The only thing that really shocks me about this is how complacent and enabling that the adults around him were. How everyone KNEW what was going on and no one anonymously reported him, or at the very least pulled him aside to say “dude you are DEAD wrong for this.” Instead of stepping in, they looked the other way or walked away. Like his ex-wife said, there’s no way he would have been able to get away with what he has without help. It truly makes me sick that no one was looking out for these girls. Yeah, a teenager should not be near anyone’s tour bus or hotel room or whatever, but (most) teens think they’re invincible and that nothing can happen to them. I think about some of the riskier situations I put myself in at that age and shudder at what could have happened. You can’t pass judgement on a teenager’s thought process with an adult brain. And an adult brain KNOWS better, which is why it makes me so damn angry when people cape for him or defend him or call the girls “fast” or try that “separate the art from the artist” nonsense. A molester is a molester, period. 

Finally, I’m wondering what the blowback is going to be for this for him. The millennials aren’t enamored by him or his music the way my generation (younger Gen-Xers ) are or were. Most of them are too young to remember how big he was in the 90s or really know his music outside of hearing him at an Auntie’s party. He’s already threatened to sue. Looking forward to the conclusion tonight.

Edited January 5, 2019 by Angelsmom1009
Grammar

[jenifaohjenny]

What exactly is it that Aaliyah’s parents want us to believe? They suffered a horrible loss. I imagine they want to uphold her image. However, it would be a real stretch to think nothing sexual happened between R. Kelly and their daughter...especially because they were married for a brief time. I imagine they may feel terrible guilt over just leaving her with him. 

[For Cereals]

He and all of his team should be in jail.  Parents too.  This is so sick.  I just want to lock everybody up.  I totally agree with the post upthread.  Sparkle, you saw how he treated his wife and how he tried to isolate women who worked for him.  They don’t show her niece, but just seeing the friend who went on record, they were BABIES.  Anyone could’ve seen that and should’ve done something.

I want to believe that families felt they were protecting their children by accepting settlements instead of putting this monster in jail, but it’s hard.  I would think the crime would preclude a settlement, but I guess not.  I don’t want to see that there are more victims, but I hope there’s an Andrea Constand out there who can still get justice.

[sereion]

On 1/4/2019 at 2:04 AM, Armchair Critic said:

His tour manager/personal assistant helped to forge Aaliyah's age on the marriage license when she was only 15. There are so many people who are complicit. ACK! I am glad his older brother is in jail and I hope he stays there, he is terrible.

Still watching the reruns since I forgot it was on tonight....

 

That stuck with me the most; the complicity; Aaliyah, who herself was baby, didn't want to marry this creep, and yet not only his flunky did nothing to stop it, but he was a willing participant. He's trash, just like his pedophile boss.

This was worse than I expected, there's so, so much to unpack; I knew about the marriage to Aaliyah, the settlements, even the sex tape (which thankfully, I've never seen), but I was shocked to know his history of predatory behavior was an open secret in Chicago, and his entourage played along instead of alerting the authorities. And the abuse...my goodness--just horrific. I felt so icky after the first episode, I wanted to take a shower.

It is important to note that dream hampton reached out to several major recording artists for this docuseries, (notably Jay-Z, Erykah Badu and Dave Chapelle to name a few)---John Legend was the only one who participated; the rest turned a blind eye by declining to come forward and call him out on his creepy behavior. It's as if he's immune to the MeToo movement.

Much love to the victims who courageously shared their stories; I hope they find healing and justice from this POS--which is over  25 years overdue.  I hope he receives the worst form of Karma from which he never recovers

Edited January 6, 2019 by sereion

[Neurochick]

I think what happened was, Kelly was making so much money for the record companies, for executives, for hangers on, for everyone, and no one wanted the gravy train to stop.  I wish this series aired ten, twenty years ago when Kelly was at the height of his popularity.  Now I sense he’s nearly a has-been, not making that money for those companies and executives anymore, so he’ll probably go to jail.  

He should have gone to jail decades ago when he married Aaliyah.  I wish Aaliyah was still with us, I’d love to hear her take on this.

I was never a fan of Kelly, something about him always creeped me out.  Even an old fart like me sensed something was not quite right with him.

[LoveIsJoy]

12 minutes ago, sereion said:

That stuck with me the most; the complicity; Aaliyah, who herself was baby, didn't want to marry this creep, and yet not only his flunky did nothing to stop it, but he was a willing participant. He's trash, just like his pedophile boss.

IIRC, the flunky who forged the documents to change Aaliyah's age was actually related to her.  At least that's what I thought I heard when he was first introduced...an uncle or something.  And then Sparkle introduced her own niece to Kelly, even after all she'd seen up close.  Sparkle initially said she'd be keeping an eye on her, but then never followed up when she found her niece alone in the studio with Kelly.  All she said to her niece was "what are you doing here alone?"  Then there was no follow up in the interview.  I kept waiting for Sparkle to say she confronted Kelly, or told her niece's parents, went to the police, or something.  But it sounded like a lot of time passed between that incident and the release of the sex tape.  Time enough for her to have intervened in some way.

All I got from the documentary regarding Sparkle was that she was estranged from the family (at what point, I don't know), and that she feels guilty for introducing them.  Sparkle appeared tough and didn't seem to be emotionally abused by Kelly, so I don't understand her reason for not stepping in to protect her niece.  Wish that part of the story was better explained. 

[Enero]

Just finished episode 5. I don’t have much to add that others haven’t said already. 

But I do have a few comments. 

Young Lizzette Martinez looked a LOT like Aaliyah. Was probably one reason besides her being a child that he was so attracted to her. 

The guy talking about the WOMEN who R. Kelly truly loved had me shaking my head in disgust when he mentioned Aaliyah. Aaliyah wasn’t a woman she was a child when RK was abusing her. Argh. 

Did not understand how Kitti Jones could be an R&B radio DJ and be completely green about RK’s history. Or did she just not believe that he was sick pedophile?

It’s is unbelievable that he’s got away with abusing so many children for so long, while people bury their heads and others keep buying his music disgusting. Now he’s holding women hostage and really there’s nothing their families can do because they are adults no matter the fact that they’re being brain washed and abused. Sad and infuriating.

Thank god Michelle was able to get her daughter, Dominique, away from that monster. I hope she can keep her away from him and that she gets her the therapy she needs because she will need much of it after being caught up in such a horrible situation.

I did get chills when Kitti talked about killing herself or him. I would not be surprised if this is how this all ends with one of the girls killing him. 

[Brooklynista]

1 hour ago, LoveIsJoy said:

IIRC, the flunky who forged the documents to change Aaliyah's age was actually related to her.  At least that's what I thought I heard when he was first introduced...an uncle or something.  And then Sparkle introduced her own niece to Kelly, even after all she'd seen up close.  Sparkle initially said she'd be keeping an eye on her, but then never followed up when she found her niece alone in the studio with Kelly.  All she said to her niece was "what are you doing here alone?"  Then there was no follow up in the interview.  I kept waiting for Sparkle to say she confronted Kelly, or told her niece's parents, went to the police, or something.  But it sounded like a lot of time passed between that incident and the release of the sex tape.  Time enough for her to have intervened in some way.

All I got from the documentary regarding Sparkle was that she was estranged from the family (at what point, I don't know), and that she feels guilty for introducing them.  Sparkle appeared tough and didn't seem to be emotionally abused by Kelly, so I don't understand her reason for not stepping in to protect her niece.  Wish that part of the story was better explained. 

I have a harsher opinion on Sparkle. I felt she delivered her niece as an offering to Kelly for help with her career. She took a 12yr old to him years after the Aliyah allegations.  Why??? Why wasn't she with that child constantly? Why leave a 12yr old unattended with any man? 

[DearEvette]

I don't think Sparkle's motives were quite that nefarious.  I think with her it is a case of he was good to her and was making her career happen.  So she introduced her niece assuming that he would treat her niece like he was treating her.  Not like he was treating those other girls.  Since she was in a separate space from all the rest of these women, a more protected space, she assume that her niece would automatically be in that space too.

It is kinda the same thing were a seeing with some of the other parents who have allowed their daughters to work with him with the promise of a career.  There is a lot of denial happening.  They blame those other girls.  But somehow it is going to be different with their daughter.

[Enero]

7 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

It is kinda the same thing were a seeing with some of the other parents who have allowed their daughters to work with him with the promise of a career.  There is a lot of denial happening.  They blame those other girls.  But somehow it is going to be different with their daughter.

This is what is baffling to me. Why did Azeriel’s parents allow her within 10 feet of him after he completely violated the child parent relationship, disrespected them by meeting with their 17 year old daughter in a hotel room alone? No matter the threats and pleading by their daughter they should’ve cut that relationship off at the knees. If she wanted to go to him when she turned 18 that would’ve been her choice, but as long as she was a minor she should’ve been kept away from him by any means necessary. 

Edited January 6, 2019 by Enero

[sereion]

Seeing Azeriel's parents at the studio was heartbreaking, you could hear the desperation and frustration in their voices when they tried to see their daughter...and the that fact he had connections with the police department is rubbing salt to the would.

R. Kelly is despicable, disgusting trash. I'm glad he's slowly getting his day of reckoning. I'm embarrassed that I actually listened to his music. No more. 

Edited January 6, 2019 by sereion

[Angelsmom1009]

41 minutes ago, DearEvette said:

I don't think Sparkle's motives were quite that nefarious.  I think with her it is a case of he was good to her and was making her career happen.  So she introduced her niece assuming that he would treat her niece like he was treating her.  Not like he was treating those other girls.  Since she was in a separate space from all the rest of these women, a more protected space, she assume that her niece would automatically be in that space too.

It is kinda the same thing were a seeing with some of the other parents who have allowed their daughters to work with him with the promise of a career.  There is a lot of denial happening.  They blame those other girls.  But somehow it is going to be different with their daughter.

I got that impression too. Especially when Azraiel’s father said when they went to his concert, fully aware of his reputation but insisted that because they were there they wouldn’t allow anything to happen. And obviously it did ☹️

[Caseysgirl]

This was a very disturbing documentary but it seems to me that at this point these women who are with him are now adults and have decided that they want to stay. I’m sure, as someone mentioned, Stockholm syndrome is somehow involved. The woman whose mother got her out of the hotel went back to him and has been with him off and on for nine years. Did they say what has become of Sparkle’s niece - is she still with him?

[Robert Lynch]

46 minutes ago, Caseysgirl said:

This was a very disturbing documentary but it seems to me that at this point these women who are with him are now adults and have decided that they want to stay. I’m sure, as someone mentioned, Stockholm syndrome is somehow involved. The woman whose mother got her out of the hotel went back to him and has been with him off and on for nine years. Did they say what has become of Sparkle’s niece - is she still with him?

 But he is not relevant anymore. He is already a has been at this point in his career. All that is left are the skeletons in his closet.

[SHD]

The current situation, where women who are of age are willingly allowing themselves to be abused, reminds me of a Manson situation. 

This is all leading somewhere, isn't it? There's a big story in People next week, too. I think they're aligning things for some planned action. I mean, if Hannibal Buress can bring down Cosby with one reference, surely this will bring down R. Kelly?

[TiffanyNichelle]

After watching these last two episodes all I can think is that this is going to end in someone's death. The fact that all the girls and women who left him and made it out alive is kind of a miracle isn't it? The woman who stole the pee tape said there were discussions about killing her. The Clary girl's sister who was hustled out of the studio and left on the road. The escalation in control over the girls and women, the manipulation. He really thinks he's untouchable. If the cops ever get off his ass and go after him or if the labels drop him and the money dries up I can see him deciding to kill himself or the women he still has under his control. And I don't want him to die, he (and this whole team of his that helps him do all this) to go to jail, to pay for what they've all done.

The Clary family infuriated me. I had to pause the tv several times during the scenes. Oh you're mad that right after your daughter turned 18 anonymous people started to message you about what he's done? You were already suspicious of him from the get-go! You didn't want her meeting him alone, lost it when she was in the hotel without telling you. I don't care if you said he was acquitted of the child porn charges so it was all good. You still had doubts. Don't now try to make it everyone else's fault they didn't warn you. The signs was there for years. Like a lot of people they decided to ignore it to get their daughter a leg up until it was too late. I hope she gets free though. She doesn't deserve any of this.

 

ETA, I forget which woman it was but one of them mentioned that she met Sparkle's niece, the girl from the pee tape and the last girl who sued him said that he said he had someone with him for 15 years. Is that the same girl? Did her family just completely give her up to him?

Edited January 6, 2019 by TiffanyNichelle
Forgot about the girl

[emjohnson03]

56 minutes ago, TiffanyNichelle said:

After watching these last two episodes all I can think is that this is going to end in someone's death. The fact that all the girls and women who left him and made it out alive is kind of a miracle isn't it? The woman who stole the pee tape said there were discussions about killing her. The Clary girl's sister who was hustled out of the studio and left on the road. The escalation in control over the girls and women, the manipulation. He really thinks he's untouchable. If the cops ever get off his ass and go after him or if the labels drop him and the money dries up I can see him deciding to kill himself or the women he still has under his control. And I don't want him to die, he (and this whole team of his that helps him do all this) to go to jail, to pay for what they've all done.

 

I was shocked as well that none of these girls who got out were harmed (they must have been threatened but still!).  Though R Kelly in his sick mind knows he just go out and get more so what does it matter? He doesn't need these woman and at the end of the day, no one will believe them. I CANNOT believe he's just out and about and this is still happening. It blows my mind!!!! I liked one song of his, the one with Lady Gaga and now I can't ever listen to it again.

He needed help way before all this and I can't believe he's been able to live his life while destroying so many. There is blame to go around for sure but WOW he is the devil.  I hope there is justice and I hope those girls that are still there get the help they need. 

[DearEvette]

I have to give it up to the documentarian, the structure of this was really well done. 

 - As someone mentioned upthread, I like that the clinicians , the professionals,  the activists, and even the press who were talking heads were mostly black and largely black women.  Yes sexual predators toward children are a universal problem that crosses race, but the issue of R. Kelly -- his victims, his support system , his apologists and his protections -- are a distinctly black community problem and even, I would argue a black woman problem.

- The stark placards when introducing a new survivor showing the age they first met R. Kelly

- The pacing of the revelations over the six episodes mirrored the escalation of his behavior.  At the start he  just came off as a creepy guy who liked under aged girls.  The only thing you really knew about him was that he married Aaliyah.   As far as the general public knew it was just about Aaliyah specifically.  But as the hours went on they peeled back the layers to see that he had a specific MO.  He would promise girls stardom, he would groom them, he would trawl malls.  So yeah he was shown to be an actual child predator.  The tape brought that into stak focus and slaps you in the face that this wasn't just about an inappropriate relationship with one girl or a predilection, he was also into full on degrading these girls.  But then by the third night, he was revealed as a full on leader of a sex cult complete with isolating the girls, brainwashing them, training them, and threatening to harm family members.  Also moving from not just underage girls to even older women who were just as easily suggestible.  By the end of the six hours you realize he wasn't just some guy who liked young girls, but  was a nightmare of pedophilia, domestic abuse and psychological terrorism.

- Th constant emphasis on his enablers on every level.  His team, the music industry, and the black community that allowed this to happen going for 25 years

- The introduction of the family members so we can see how easily they are duped and manipulated as well as the massive amounts of denial they are in.  Also the ineffectiveness of the legal system, the cops and even the parents when they realize what is going on.  With the final introduction of the activists with we see that the only real way to bring him down is the same thing that has been keeping him protected all this time:  his money and the public opinion of him.

I read that the first two episodes set a ratings record for Lifetime in all key demos.  So yeah, kudos to the team.

Some other thoughts:

- I feel terrible for the Savages and the Clarys.  I was really  feeling their frustration.  I do condemn a little bit, because they knew of his past and allowed their daughter to have contact with him.  They were not ignorant, but again, they were like Sparkle in that they were sure he would be like that with ther daughter.  Still they tried and I feel bad for them.

- Dominique being turned into a 'boy toy' was a plot twist  I did not see coming.  I just think at that point he was so depraved that it was an anything goes at that point.  I am glad her mother got her out and that hotel manager going against policy was great because he had to know something was not right!  That poor girl.  She had such dead eyes in that one video they showed of her.

- Anyone who thinks these girls are there of their own free will don't understand the real effects of brainwashing and  domestic abuse.  They are isolated a from their families and even from each other and subjected to behavior modification.  They are trained like Pavlov's dogs and kept in line through a series of carrots (I am going to make you famous, yes we are going to work on your career, you're my favorite) and sticks (I will punish you and kill your parents and you signed stuff saying you stole from me). 

- Finally I don't think Sparkle's niece is still with him.  There was no coda on her.  Since Sparkle was on the show and her involvement took up a whole two episodes I am thinking if she was still with him, there would have been a coda like there was with Azriel and Joycelyn.

-

[Guest]

18 hours ago, Enero said:

Did not understand how Kitti Jones could be an R&B radio DJ and be completely green about RK’s history. Or did she just not believe that he was sick pedophile?

I remembered reading this article in Rolling Stone about Kitti Jones back in October 2017 when it was published. It seemed like she just didn't care. She'd be into him since she was a teenager. It seems a lot of people didn't care about what kind of sick piece of shit he was until it personally affected them. See also:

2 hours ago, TiffanyNichelle said:

I don't care if you said he was acquitted of the child porn charges so it was all good.

That was the most enraging quote from the parents who seemed to poo poo his crimes because somehow he could benefit them. "Oh, he was found not guilty so I guess he was set up." No. No. No. Fuck that. I remember reading all about that rape tape and the ensuing trial—and there was nothing about any sort of "set up" that rang true to me. What did ring true was that it certainly appeared that the girl was prevented from testifying and that her parents were in some way compensated for their silence at trial as well. Everyone, it turns out, has a price. (And speaking of that trial, the one juror who was interviewed was a complete asshole.)

The guy should be in prison. No argument. But he's never going to be. And his career, much like Michael Jackson's after he was exposed as a pedophile, will just keep plowing on because for as many detractors as Kelly has, he has just as many enablers. As long as he's making money for someone, the show will go on. 

[Enero]

18 minutes ago, Giant Misfit said:

(And speaking of that trial, the one juror who was interviewed was a complete asshole.)

This. I was completely disgusted by his comments. So basically he voted for an acquittal because he didn’t like the “looks” of the witnesses and thus didn’t believe them. Argh. Infuriating. SMH. 

[Sheenieb]

Quote

You can’t pass judgement on a teenager’s thought process with an adult brain. And an adult brain KNOWS better, which is why it makes me so damn angry when people cape for him or defend him or call the girls “fast” or try that “separate the art from the artist” nonsense. A molester is a molester, period. 

1

Exactly. If two grown-ass, 30+-year-old women with their own careers and lives got ensnared by him, then how can we expect teenage girls to know better?

The motif of this documentary is the enabling and culpability of adults. Everyone knew about R. Kelly's predilections for teenage girls, but it was ignored. My heart broke for those parents, but I was angry with them as well. First of all, why are you putting your child in spitting distance of R. Kelly? Why are you even at his concert to begin with?  Unfortunately, there are a lot of R. Kelly's in many families, so if you condemn him, then you also have to deal with uncle/cousin/ so and so who the family knows not to leave girls around. We have a knack for protecting predators, so this is why Kells still has his fanbase. It's disheartening and disgusting. 

6 hours ago, emjohnson03 said:

I liked one song of his, the one with Lady Gaga and now I can't ever listen to it again.

"Do What You Want." Let me tell you, Gaga is damn lucky that that song hasn't come back to bite her; especially given her award noms and success of A Star is Born. I don't know what the fuck she was thinking. Not only to duet with R. Kelly but to have Terry Richardson direct the video!  The video was in such bad taste that it didn't even air in its entirety. I do remember a teaser for it and Gaga was on a hospital bed, I think, Kells was putting her under, and he told her, "you're going to wake up pregnant."  That song would've worked with anyone on the track but R. Kelly, but I'm going to assume he wrote it. 

Edited January 7, 2019 by Sheenieb

[EdnasEdibles]

The only thing that I can think of with the parents is that they knew but assumed they were smarter than he is. The one I saw this the most with was Sparkle. She kind of sneered at his wife when she talked about how she had to ask permission to eat. I think she thought she was smart and tough and knew his game so she could win his game, not realizing that he was way too good at his game. She was shocked that her niece was there without her. I also think that Sparkle thought they had an agreement of sorts. He was good to her so he’d be good to her people.

 

I think some of the parents were like that too. The one mom even said she’d been in jail. I think she thought she was savvy and smart. I would bet they all warned those girls but had no idea how manipulative and evil he really is.

 

I really think most of them “othered” the victims. “Sure he abuses other people but they are poor and dumb. I am smart. I am not a victim. He respects my talent.” And then they’re manipulated into his terrible world.

I also wondered if the “boy toy” was in a “relationship” with the TMZ girl. TMZ girl seemed at a higher level in his world. She was allowed to travel without him. I wonder if the rescued girl was maybe afraid of R Kelly and of the other girl too. Abused and manipulated by both.

[sereion]

3 hours ago, Sheenieb said:

."Do What You Want." Let me tell you, Gaga is damn lucky that that song hasn't come back to bite her; especially given her award noms and success of A Star is Born. I don't know what the fuck she was thinking.

I'm surprised she declined to come forward for this documentary; especially since she's been vocal about the Me Too movement, and her story as victim herself.

[Irlandesa]

Overall, this was a fascinating documentary.  I do think it could have been a touch shorter.  I felt it repeated some of the talking head bits a bit too much.  Hearing that it takes women to leave an abusive relationship about seven times more than once might have worked had the episodes not aired so close together. 

3 hours ago, EdnasEdibles said:

The only thing that I can think of with the parents is that they knew but assumed they were smarter than he is.

This right there.  Since they knew who the monster was, they thought they could protect their loved ones from the monster.  One of the talking heads people said that R Kelly, like many abusers, would have different types of relationships with the women in his life.  Women who had their ish together might get into a sexual relationship with him but they weren't the ones being moved into his house.  Those women, or girls, were those who had a need he felt he could exploit or a family he knew he could manipulate.  It's no surprise that he selected so many who wanted to be singers where the lure of a connection to someone in the industry was just too tempting to them and their families.  He also got smarter in that his young victims weren't 14 or 15 year olds any longer but 17 year olds who, in a short amount of time, would technically be at an age to make their own decisions and it can get harder to control them with a countdown like that.

I thought the interviews with the older women too, especially the radio DJ who said to her friend "please don't disrespect me like that" when her friend brought up the pee tape.  That says it all, doesn't it?  She sees a friend warning her that her boyfriend is a pedophile, with video evidence, as disrespecting her. 

On 1/5/2019 at 7:29 PM, sereion said:

It is important to note that dream hampton reached out to several major recording artists for this docuseries, (notably Jay-Z, Erykah Badu and Dave Chapelle to name a few)---John Legend was the only one who participated; the rest turned a blind eye by declining to come forward and call him out on his creepy behavior. It's as if he's immune to the MeToo movement.

I don't think not participating in a documentary is the same thing as turning a blind eye.  All Legend really offered is some context to R Kelly's success.  And I don't think any condemnation is going to be as powerful as the victims and the people behind the movement to #muteRKelly.

[Spiderella2]

18 hours ago, Caseysgirl said:

This was a very disturbing documentary but it seems to me that at this point these women who are with him are now adults and have decided that they want to stay. I’m sure, as someone mentioned, Stockholm syndrome is somehow involved. The woman whose mother got her out of the hotel went back to him and has been with him off and on for nine years. Did they say what has become of Sparkle’s niece - is she still with him?

I think she was still in his presence as currently  as 2010/2011. The DJ, Kitty Jones said that R. Kelly introduced her to the girl on the tape within 2 weeks of her (Kitti) quitting her job and moving to his mansion. Since Martinez was out of the picture then (according to her statements in episode 3, she left him 2009). Thus Kitti must have met/ introduced to Sparkle’s niece. Her story is relatively newer in the timeline as the Love Letter album came out in 2010.  I saw in another doc on REELZ that the sex tape victim’s family got a huge  settlement...estimated at $5-9 million for their silence. Hence why they didn’t show up to testify at trial. And the brother in law is still R. Kelly’s bassist. 

Edited January 7, 2019 by Spiderella2
Dates

[TimetoShine]

4 hours ago, Spiderella2 said:

And the brother in law is still R. Kelly’s bassist. 

This is stunning. 

I’m thinking the people ego have enabled him should be punished right along with him but to bad family member of a victim and still work with him?!👎