S37.E12: Are You Feeling Lucky?

[rasalas]

2 hours ago, Nashville said:

Production starts out every season with something like three “follow-cam” crews  (a SteadiCam camera operator and any necessary support crew) per contestant, whose sole job is to follow around their assigned contestant every second of an 8-hour shift.  So it doesn’t matter if a contestant is idol-hunting, or taking a stroll on the beach, or simply trying to take a shit in the ocean - EVERY contestant will have a follow-cam crew stuck on their ass regardless.  Under such circumstances, a follow-cam crew trailing a contestant down the beach would be a totally unremarkable occurrence; on the contrary, the lack of such a crew would be noteworthy.

Each contestant does not get a camera crew. There would be crew people in every shot if so. There are several crews, and they follow whatever activity seems relevant for coverage, which led to my original post. This comment from a camera operator in a Reddit forum supports this:

 

Quote

you always want to have the best scenes on any given day, it is healthy competition between the crews. you sometimes wish you had chosen to follow that one person out of camp that ends up having a big strategy converation, instead you stay with 2 others at the shelter and they nevtably start talking about the first thing they are going to make when they get back to the USA. yawn

[30 Helens]

11 hours ago, Charlesman said:

Yeah, they know, and the producers are in the edit room sitting next to the editors guiding the cut all season long. 

Probst and the producers read the votes right at the final TC...as we saw last season they at least need to know if it's a tie so they revote right away. 

Not many, but, maybe a dozen or so people on the show staff know the winner. The "story producers" will work out what to focus on, what storylines to play up, what maneuvering to highlight, and help the editors craft the narrative. 

TV is made differently than most people think. There are lots of people involved. It's not a locked room with an editor working alone, he's probably got three guys behind him watching him work all day, talking out ideas and suggestions. 

I assumed that Probst and other top producers knew the winner. The fact that there are lots of people involved in crafting the storyline is actually the point I was making— the more people in the know, the more opportunity for leaks. I still maintain that the editors could build an effective narrative by knowing only the final three.  But I will concede that they probably know more.

That said, I continue to believe that if the final 3 consisted of, say, Mike/ Kara/ Allison, they would have been characterized as more than Pompously Indecisive/ Friendly Nonentity/ Who Is That Again?. Even Angelina is just comic relief at this point.  But I would kind of love to hear her final argument to the jury: “Please vote for me? Pleeease? Christian? Christian? I got rice! Carl?”

[mikewho]

5 hours ago, blackwing said:

Honk!  The silent clock on "24" was most notably used for important/significant sacrifices or deaths.  If you're a Christian fan, I get that one might view his elimination as the most significant of the season.  But frankly, I was sick of the guy, and the constant over-the-top Deification of Christian by the editors.  It was just too much.

I can't Honk, because I've never watched "24", but I did notice the smoking torch and thought the same thing. OMG! Christian was voted out! It was as if we were all supposed to cry over Christian's elimination. Like a sledgehammer. Hell, not me. Could never stand the guy. Any time he had a confessional, at all tribal councils, every time he opened his mouth my mind wandered. I just did NOT want to hear anything he had to say. I would have enjoyed the season more if he'd been voted out earlier.

[Lamima]

2 hours ago, kikaha said:

Mike's growing on me. 

He may or may not be as smart as Christian -- how can we know?  But I think Mike is better at Survivor, and it isn't close.  Actually, Mike has played a near flawless game so far, given his strengths and limitations. 

His social game has been near perfect.  He not only has no great enemies, he has alliances with everyone but Davie.  That has kept him off the radar screen and led to ZERO votes cast against him at tribal so far.  It puts him in a great position entering the end game. 

His strategy has worked great as well.  He's walked a tightrope between the various blocs and alliances, almost always correctly identifying the majority and voting with it.  He has a great eye for detecting the quarter of the wind and adjusting his play accordingly. 

I don't see booting Christian as shit-stirring.  I see it as smart, almost brilliant.  One player after another said Christian was the #1 threat to win.  Yet in the chaos that surrounded camp before last tribal, Christian had escaped notice.  From everyone but Mike, that is.  Mike patiently and carefully planted the seeds that removed the biggest threat in the game.  Excellent play. 

Mike is not a physical threat.  But this has not been a real physical season so far, challenge-wise.  Meanwhile Mike has been on 8 rewards, and is tied for first with most individual immunity wins.  (With everyone else, which shows that to date no one stands out in this category.)

Is he a goat?  I used to think so.  Now I'm not so sure.  He can point to his social game.  His navigating between the various alliances.  His huge number of reward wins/trips.  His immunity win, that freed him to make what is probably the biggest move in the game till now, clipping the guy everyone feared to win. 

And I bet he can do all that in a convincing way.

If he makes F3, it probably comes down to who he faces.  Say it's Alison and Angelina.  I think Mike can win that one handily.  Especially if he engineered getting Nick, Davie and Kara out before that. 

There is that element of him being a rich celebrity...jury may not want to vote for him.

[blackwing]

9 minutes ago, 30 Helens said:

I assumed that Probst and other top producers knew the winner. The fact that there are lots of people involved in crafting the storyline is actually the point I was making— the more people in the know, the more opportunity for leaks. I still maintain that the editors could build an effective narrative by knowing only the final three.  But I will concede that they probably know more.

That said, I continue to believe that if the final 3 consisted of, say, Mike/ Kara/ Allison, they would have been characterized as more than Pompously Indecisive/ Friendly Nonentity/ Who Is That Again?. Even Angelina is just comic relief at this point.  But I would kind of love to hear her final argument to the jury: “Please vote for me? Pleeease? Christian? Christian? I got rice! Carl?”

Agreed.  There was an article early in the season where Jeffy was saying that viewers have noticed things were "different" about the editing this year (one of the examples was that a scene in the "previously on Survivor" clip was in fact not actually shown on air in the previous episode) and that it was refreshing.  Or something like that.  So I have no idea what to make of that comment in conjunction with this final 6. 

Is it "Wow, we sure fooled you, the winner [Angelina] is a nasty self-centered self-congratulating rhymes with rich that we didn't even try to make look like a nice human being!"  Or "Wow, we sure fooled you, the winner [Mike] is a 40 year old that looks like he is 65 and pretty much wishywashed his way through the entire game!"  Or "Wow, we sure fooled you, the winner [Alison] was know by the crew as Susan Storm Richards the Invisible Woman for the first 20 days of the game!"

Because at this point, I would think the editing could only point to either Nick or Davie as the winner.  People that actually played the game and called the shots rather than thinking they were in control (Angelina) or accidentally falling into a swing vote position (Mike, Alison).

If Angelina makes it to the end and opens with "I won rice for the tribe" I sure as hell hope that somebody says "let's face it Angelina, you had no chance of winning that immunity so don't act like it was some grand sacrifice, when everyone sees right through you and knew that everything you did was for the purposes of jury management."

[mikewho]

4 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

Could Jeff have said "balls" any more times? 

Well, they WERE balancing balls. What was he supposed to say? 'So-and-so's leaves are starting to separate and slide around their disc?'

[Special K]

Is this the first season in which they have not given them bathing suits after the merge (or the swap)?
 

[blackwing]

39 minutes ago, violet and green said:

No, [Davie] played his other idol earlier to save Christian.

I have to hope either Davie or Nick will carry on with their early rising and hunting for idols and find another.

Ah, thanks.  It seems to me then that if Mike/Alison/Angelina/Kara, with or without Nick, decided to take out Davie then he is screwed.  I would imagine that the next vote is going to be Davie v. Nick and their factions.

6 minutes ago, Lamima said:

There is that element of [Mike] being a rich celebrity...jury may not want to vote for him.

Is he really though?  I get that he's been on Amazing Race, is rich, and is a successful screenwriter and sometime actor, but honestly, the first time I saw him on Amazing Race, I had no idea who he was.  I think I could probably run him over on the street and still not recognize him.  He's definitely not a rich celebrity in the way that some of the more famous athletes or that lady that was on Facts of Life that have been on the show have been, is he?   

Just now, mikewho said:

Well, they WERE balancing balls. What was he supposed to say? 'So-and-so's leaves are starting to separate and slide around their disc?'

It's not just the fact that he says "balls", it's the overly excited and dramatic way that he gushes about every little thing about every challenge that makes it all the more funnier.  And the way he enunciates and emphasizes certain words.  And the way he never stops talking.  "You've GOT to keep your balls steady.  Any little movement or step might send your balls CRASHING to the ground.  You've got to PROTECT your balls at all cost.  WHO can keep their BALLS alive for as long as possible?"  Phil Keoghan on Amazing Race announcing the cheese wheel dolly race vs. Jeffy nonstop chattering during every competition... huge difference.  Phil could say balls repeatedly and it'd be more like a golf or tennis announcer making a quiet and astute observation.  Whereas Jeffy acts like every comp is the tenth round of a bloody MMA fight.

[mikewho]

I understand what you're saying. But Jeff over-emphasizes everything he says at every challenge, so while I also find it amusing, it's just more of the same 'ol. Sort of like if he'd said "Davie tries to knock ALL of his BLOCKS OFF, but his rope is too SHORT!'

And in this case, they WERE balls, so...even though I get the innuendo, what else would he say? 

To me, comparing Phil and Jeff is like comparing apples and oranges. And I don't really prefer one over the other. They're just two completely different kinds of 'hosts'.

Edited December 13, 2018 by mikewho

[violet and green]

36 minutes ago, 30 Helens said:

That said, I continue to believe that if the final 3 consisted of, say, Mike/ Kara/ Allison, they would have been characterized as more than Pompously Indecisive/ Friendly Nonentity/ Who Is That Again?. Even Angelina is just comic relief at this point.  But I would kind of love to hear her final argument to the jury: “Please vote for me? Pleeease? Christian? Christian? I got rice! Carl?”

So funny!

All I know about Kara is she turned on her beach boyfriend, Dan, and she smiles really cheesily in her interviews.

If she won.... My god! I've tuned everything she ever said out, so it will be a complete surprise. It will be like the time Michelle won, and I'd tuned her out all season as a deadly dull talking head and she did to my eyes nothing except say dull stuff and cry at the final tribal, so I was deeply stunned.

Alison... such a threat, hahaha. At least indecisive Mike has noticed a few things and made a few amusing comments and so on. I guess people on the council like Kara??? Because she does the cheesy smile? I think out of that wet three, I'd pick her to win, then. But my hope rides on either or both Nick and David getting to the end.

[willco]

19 hours ago, Rachel RSL said:

You guys, I can’t with Mike. Every time someone comes up with a good plan, Mike screws it up. I knew they never should have told him about the Nick blindside. Stupid Mike. GAH!

That being said, this season continues to be awesomely entertaining! Every TC is insane. I can’t believe it’s already the finale next week! I’m so sad to see Christian go but we all knew it was coming.

I love Davie! He was smart enough to know that Nick was lying about finding the idol under the raft, he was smart enough to not risk his vote, and the cherry on top was when he didn’t choose Angelina for the reward. That was hilarious! On one hand, I kind of feel bad for her but, on the other hand, I really hope there’s a montage on the reunion show of all the times Angelina begged for something and didn’t get it.

Probst was over-the-top with the balls jokes tonight. Plus, he said “guesstimate” so now he must die.

So many ball jokes ! The 13-year old boy in me was laughing loudly. Probst is involved in the editing process, I assume, so he had to do that on purpose. He can't be that dense, can he ?

 

I'm not too upset that Christian got the boot, to be honest. I get the feeling that his attempts at humility are all for show. I could be very wrong, but that what it seems like to me. Besides, of all the players this season, I'd bet money on him being the most likely to return for another season. Survivor always brings back someone who stands out like he has done this time.

 

I will say I'm impressed by Davie more and more. He really has a good read on things and also tends to hedge his bets when he feels a bit unsure. A lot of times, players who could be good go head long into an idea once they get it, and often it's their downfall. If he survives til the Finale, he's the favorite, I think.

[Haleth]

1 hour ago, meep.meep said:

Was Christian sick?  He was walking hunched over the entire episode (I know that his posture isn't that great normally).  When he went out in the IC, he just dropped down and curled up right there.

If he was sick he sure got over it later that night. He put away a meal that you wouldn't believe at ponderosa. 

[GaT]

8 hours ago, brilliantbreakfast said:

Oh. My. God.  If you did not love Christian Hubicki enough already, catch this:

 

He is just the best.  My favorite player of all time.  So brilliant, and yet, so adorable.  Watch the faces of all these much-dimmer lunkheads as they try to grok what he's talking about.  And yet, they do.

I love him. If there's another "popular" season, he has to come back.

[ProfCrash]

1 hour ago, violet and green said:

o, Gabby read her position - bottom of a five person alliance that had held steady as other alliances shifted and crumbled and/or faded out into nothing c/- Mike and Alison's chickenhearted wishywashyness.

She pulled poor protective Christian into a vote with a group of remaining Goliaths, the only one who was remotely loyal to her being shifting wishywashy Alison. The rest of whom had been gunning to get Christian out for many eps. Placing Christian with no-one - as she then, being a mastermind, turned on her only true ally - and placing herself at best with an ally of one, wishwashy Alison, or, in the most strained way of looking at a potential best scenario, now bottom of a non-alliance of people she's never worked with who don't especially like her.

Because Christian was completly unable to look at his position and decide what was the best move for him. Clearly Gabby used her feminine wiles to convince Christian to throw away his games because all he wanted to do was protect Gabby. Poor, poor Christian. 

If Gabby was a better person she would have allowed Carl to simply vote out Alison, Gabby’s ally, and then willingly offer herself up at the next vote so that poor, easily controlled Christian could preserve his game.

And why should we look at carl’s poor play and Davie and Nick’s acceptance of Carl’s poor game play. No we should only look at Gabby and her ability to emotionally manipulate poor, guliable Christian. 

Carl made clear how he saw Christian and Gabby. Carl was dictating the vote. He dictated the Alec vote and the Alison vote. He didn’t talk to Christian, he told Christian what to do. So why would anyone see that as an alliance? Why should Christian trust Carl? 

Oh that’s right. Because Carl, out of the goodness of his heart played an advantage to help Christian because Carl loved Christian and wanted Christian to stay in teh game and win it all. Not because Carl knew that it was better to vote out the more immunity challenge threating John and Dan and that Carl needed to work with folks to get them out. Only because he loved Christian and wanted to take care of his bro. 

But that dastardly Gabby got in the way of Carl’s well thought out plan to take Christian to the finals with her emotional manipulation. 

(Eye roll)

I am sorry but this idea that Carl and Nick and Davie did what they did because they saw Christian as an ally and not because they were trying to shore up their position in the game is crazy. We never saw Christian work with Carl. Davie didn’t tell Christian he had an idol he was playing, Davie just told Christian to write down Jon. They were not allied, Davie was covering his butt and improving his chances by helping Christian. Just like Davie did when he told Christian about the vote last week.

And the idea that Christian blew up his game simply because he couldn’t Gabby being sad and crying is equally crazy. Christian made the move he did because he thought it was the best move he had. You dn’t have to agree with it but this notion that Gabby is an awful person and destroyed Christian’s game is wrong. 

Christian is not a victim. Gabby did not force him to do anything. Both of them were responding to in game signals given off by Carl, Davie and Nick. In game signals that were correctly interpited because Carl was targeting Gabby and Christian. He had no intention of going to the final four with Christian, never mind the finals. 

I think what honks me off about this lien of thought is the implication that Gabby is some type of jealous temptress that lured Christian into the rocks. It reads like no one blames Carl and Davie and Nick for how they were operating or Christian for his part in the decision. It lays all the blame on one person, Gabby, a woman, and exonerates the men involved in the play. Agree with the move or not but stop treating Christian and Carl like victims. They both made their own decisions that led to the path that was chosen and they are both grown up enough to accept responsibility for those decisons. 

[jaigurudeva]

When the entire episode didn't feature Christian in the slightest (I wondered if he and Mike sat out on the reward challenge, because I didn't see a single shot of either) I figured he was a goner midway. Without his alliances with Carl, Gabby, and Nick (and with the jury full of former brochachos and allies of his) he had no way of getting to the final anyway.

I'm rooting for Davie, with a dream-team final of Davie, Kara, and Alison. Davie was the only one smart enough to give that fake idol a second thought, although I'm not sure about his play with the idol from the advantage. I don't know if I would play it (even if it's the only time it can be played) if I weren't in immediate danger, since you run the risk of alienating your alliance and putting a target on your back when they see you had an idol they didn't know about. On the other hand, it seemed to flush both the fake idol and real idol out of Nick, who played both for some reason? Why not play the real idol and let everyone still assume you have another?

[gesundheit]

I still quite like Mike. He's clever and affable and clearly gets along with everyone, but he's not bombastic or melodramatic. He has no chance of winning since he's already a millionaire and the other players know that, so he's just trying to get as far as he can and have a little fun. Voting out Christian with a split vote/idol backup plan was 100% ABSOLUTELY the correct move (despite my being sad to see Christian go). Angelina "You all KNOW I didn't sacrifice for everyone to have rice for some sort of reciprocity, of course, but HOW DARE Davie not reciprocate!" used to really piss me off but now I find her incredibly entertaining. (And, for the record, rooting for Davie to win it all. He's damn good at this.)

[Ms Blue Jay]

46 minutes ago, violet and green said:

If she won.... My god! I've tuned everything she ever said out, so it will be a complete surprise. It will be like the time Michelle won, and I'd tuned her out all season as a deadly dull talking head and she did to my eyes nothing except say dull stuff and cry at the final tribal, so I was deeply stunned.

There could be nothing worse than the editing for Michelle's season.  Ever.  Whatsoever.  Even An........................................................ Allison (I had to think long and hard about what her name is) winning this season would make more sense than Michelle's that year.  The editing made it seem like a ghost flew in at Final Tribal Council and won the show.  

[JKL845]

It really is all about the editing. I'm sure all of them have made moves that aren't shown. All of them have been smug & secure about where they stand, etc. Last night it looked like Mike was trying to get rid of Christian but was rebuffed. However, Christian did go so maybe he made his case & Mike was the one to orchestrate Christian's exit. I would like to see when it comes down to the final 3 they show a montage of unseen footage where we see moves from all 3, making a case for each one to possibly win.

[violet and green]

4 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

And Gabby and Christian read their position in the "alliance" properly and acted on that info.

 

42 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

Because Christian was completly unable to look at his position and decide what was the best move for him. Clearly Gabby used her feminine wiles to convince Christian to throw away his games because all he wanted to do was protect Gabby. Poor, poor Christian. 

If Gabby was a better person she would have allowed Carl to simply vote out Alison, Gabby’s ally, and then willingly offer herself up at the next vote so that poor, easily controlled Christian could preserve his game.

And why should we look at carl’s poor play and Davie and Nick’s acceptance of Carl’s poor game play. No we should only look at Gabby and her ability to emotionally manipulate poor, guliable Christian. 

Carl made clear how he saw Christian and Gabby. Carl was dictating the vote. He dictated the Alec vote and the Alison vote. He didn’t talk to Christian, he told Christian what to do. So why would anyone see that as an alliance? Why should Christian trust Carl? 

Oh that’s right. Because Carl, out of the goodness of his heart played an advantage to help Christian because Carl loved Christian and wanted Christian to stay in teh game and win it all. Not because Carl knew that it was better to vote out the more immunity challenge threating John and Dan and that Carl needed to work with folks to get them out. Only because he loved Christian and wanted to take care of his bro. 

But that dastardly Gabby got in the way of Carl’s well thought out plan to take Christian to the finals with her emotional manipulation. 

(Eye roll)

I am sorry but this idea that Carl and Nick and Davie did what they did because they saw Christian as an ally and not because they were trying to shore up their position in the game is crazy. We never saw Christian work with Carl. Davie didn’t tell Christian he had an idol he was playing, Davie just told Christian to write down Jon. They were not allied, Davie was covering his butt and improving his chances by helping Christian. Just like Davie did when he told Christian about the vote last week.

And the idea that Christian blew up his game simply because he couldn’t Gabby being sad and crying is equally crazy. Christian made the move he did because he thought it was the best move he had. You dn’t have to agree with it but this notion that Gabby is an awful person and destroyed Christian’s game is wrong. 

Christian is not a victim. Gabby did not force him to do anything. Both of them were responding to in game signals given off by Carl, Davie and Nick. In game signals that were correctly interpited because Carl was targeting Gabby and Christian. He had no intention of going to the final four with Christian, never mind the finals. 

I think what honks me off about this lien of thought is the implication that Gabby is some type of jealous temptress that lured Christian into the rocks. It reads like no one blames Carl and Davie and Nick for how they were operating or Christian for his part in the decision. It lays all the blame on one person, Gabby, a woman, and exonerates the men involved in the play. Agree with the move or not but stop treating Christian and Carl like victims. They both made their own decisions that led to the path that was chosen and they are both grown up enough to accept responsibility for those decisons. 

Rather contradictory!

[Coco88]

4 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

The Davids problem was that Carl couldn't let go of the fact that people wanted Jessica out and not Lyrsa, I think it was Lyrsa that vote. Carl couldn't handle the fact that people wanted to play their game and not his game. Christian, Elizabeth, Gabby, Lyrsa and Nick decided that it made more sense to remove Jessica. Carl, Davie and Bi were really pissed off after that vote. Carl never let it go. Carl was willing to sacrifice Elizabeth because of that one vote. Once Carl once in a position of power he abused that power. He expected people to vote the way he wanted them to vote with no discussion. Honestly, I don't think Carl was the only one with that problem, I think Davie was not able to fully work with Nick or Christian because of the Jessica blindside.

I think Carl did throw Elizabeth under the bus because of the Jessica vote but I think everyone knew a David was going to be the first one out after the merge because the David’s didn’t have the numbers.  Maybe Davie should have played his idol on Elizabeth to get the numbers then but who knows.

I also don’t think Davie really held any grudges for any of the votes.  I think Carl was Davie’s #1 ally and yet Davie didn’t hold it against Christian and didn’t stop wanting to work with him.  

Someone had termed Davie’s gameplay as clinical and I think that has been spot-on.  I know I wouldn’t be able to play like that.  I would be all, you got out my ally I shall avenge him/her.  Kind of like how Natalie avenged Jeremy on Blood v. Water 2.  (Weird, I just realized that there was another Jeremy and Natalie this season yet they were enemies instead of allies)

[Eolivet]

56 minutes ago, ProfCrash said:

I am sorry but this idea that Carl and Nick and Davie did what they did because they saw Christian as an ally and not because they were trying to shore up their position in the game is crazy. We never saw Christian work with Carl. Davie didn’t tell Christian he had an idol he was playing, Davie just told Christian to write down Jon. They were not allied, Davie was covering his butt and improving his chances by helping Christian. Just like Davie did when he told Christian about the vote last week.

I've really enjoyed your posts on this, @ProfCrash -- because you've made me think. I believe what's throwing me off is the idea that none of these people had any loyalty to each other -- where loyalty and alliances have been cornerstones of previous Survivor seasons. I also think the editing showed a bonded group of Davids -- despite the Jessica vote. They huddled together that first night and we heard all their sad stories. Then they had all that bad luck with Pat and Bi, and then they were down in numbers at the merge and then! -- there was the scene with all of them on the beach, excitedly sharing their advantages with each other.

Even Nick -- who's arguably been most friendly with the Goliaths  -- was fuming after the Carl vote that Christian had given away "their" numbers advantage when "they" worked so hard to get it (I believe his exact line was "we just [expletive] gave it back to them"). Unless Nick was a brilliant actor covering his behind, the "we" seemed to be referring to "the Davids" and the "them" seemed to be referring to "the Goliaths." I suppose it could've been "the people I trust vs the people you trust" [/tm David Wright], but "we" gave it to "them" seems like more defined groups than that.

When things fall apart, as they have with the David tribe, I know I like to look for reasons why and "they were never really aligned" is so hard for me to accept because what is Survivor without alliances? Even Rob Cesternino on his podcast brought up how you can't have voting blocs without trusting at least one other person. The idea that all these people have been playing self-centered games, that everyone is disposable from vote to vote, and there's no loyalty to anyone, seems almost antithetical to Survivor. But maybe I'm just not ready for "the evolution of strategy" to evolve that much.

[Bryce Lynch]

57 minutes ago, jaigurudeva said:

When the entire episode didn't feature Christian in the slightest (I wondered if he and Mike sat out on the reward challenge, because I didn't see a single shot of either) I figured he was a goner midway. Without his alliances with Carl, Gabby, and Nick (and with the jury full of former brochachos and allies of his) he had no way of getting to the final anyway.

I'm rooting for Davie, with a dream-team final of Davie, Kara, and Alison. Davie was the only one smart enough to give that fake idol a second thought, although I'm not sure about his play with the idol from the advantage. I don't know if I would play it (even if it's the only time it can be played) if I weren't in immediate danger, since you run the risk of alienating your alliance and putting a target on your back when they see you had an idol they didn't know about. On the other hand, it seemed to flush both the fake idol and real idol out of Nick, who played both for some reason? Why not play the real idol and let everyone still assume you have another?

Nick played the fake idol first to see if he could tell by the other players' reactions if he needed to play the real one.  He was hoping to save the real one.  

[KimberStormer]

2 hours ago, ghoulina said:

I'm with you. Many people said they were surprised to tear up over it. I was a big Christian fan from day 1, but found myself surprisingly okay with it. I mean, I was disappointed he couldn't go further; I liked watching him play. But it was absolutely the right move for the others to make. And that's the kind of game I like to watch. No pussyfooting around. See the opportunity to take out a threat? Do it. Now we have several contenders. 

From a gameplay perspective I'm totally ok with it, of course!  And from a show perspective, even.  Just on a personal level, I hate to see anyone be sad on Survivor, and he seemed really down, uncharacteristically subdued, this time.  He knew he was a dead man walking, and I think there's a certain ghostliness when you've played an idol and saved yourself, and are now out of chances.

[violet and green]

I guess it makes it all pretty unpredictable from here on, so that is something.

The one I want to win hardly ever wins, so when the one I want to win goes I am so sad. Also, because it was so preventable, on a certain level... I would be happiest to have had the final six be all Davids, and maybe Angelina - and then they could turn on each other. It is starting to look unlikely that a David will win now, and this makes me almost as sad as seeing Christian go did. But prior to this late turn of events it has been the best season in years, decades almost!

[ProfCrash]

32 minutes ago, Eolivet said:

I've really enjoyed your posts on this, @ProfCrash -- because you've made me think. I believe what's throwing me off is the idea that none of these people had any loyalty to each other -- where loyalty and alliances have been cornerstones of previous Survivor seasons. I also think the editing showed a bonded group of Davids -- despite the Jessica vote. They huddled together that first night and we heard all their sad stories. Then they had all that bad luck with Pat and Bi, and then they were down in numbers at the merge and then! -- there was the scene with all of them on the beach, excitedly sharing their advantages with each other.

Even Nick -- who's arguably been most friendly with the Goliaths  -- was fuming after the Carl vote that Christian had given away "their" numbers advantage when "they" worked so hard to get it (I believe his exact line was "we just [expletive] gave it back to them"). Unless Nick was a brilliant actor covering his behind, the "we" seemed to be referring to "the Davids" and the "them" seemed to be referring to "the Goliaths." I suppose it could've been "the people I trust vs the people you trust" [/tm David Wright], but "we" gave it to "them" seems like more defined groups than that.

When things fall apart, as they have with the David tribe, I know I like to look for reasons why and "they were never really aligned" is so hard for me to accept because what is Survivor without alliances? Even Rob Cesternino on his podcast brought up how you can't have voting blocs without trusting at least one other person. The idea that all these people have been playing self-centered games, that everyone is disposable from vote to vote, and there's no loyalty to anyone, seems almost antithetical to Survivor. But maybe I'm just not ready for "the evolution of strategy" to evolve that much.

Nick is the one person who seems to have allianes across the different factions in the Davids. There was the Jessica/Bi/Carl/Davie faction and the Elizabeth/Christian/Gabby/Lyrsa faction. Nick was between the two groups. Nick agreed to vote out Jessica and then tossed all the blame on Gabby. Shortly after that vote Bi quit and the tribe swap happened. We saw Bi and Carl fuming over the blindside. Davie seemed to take it in stride. Nick and Christian threw Gabby under the bus. 

Nick voted out Natalie but was fine with sacrificing Lyrsa before the merge. There wasn’t even a tie vote that led to his changing his vote and voting out Lyrsa, he just voted her out. 

Once the merge happened, all of the Davids tried to find Goliaths to play with but the Goliaths would not play with the Davids. The Davids tried to show the various Goliaths that they were working with, like Alec, Mike and Alison in the Strike Force, that they culd be trusted so they all voted for Elizabeth. After that it was clear that the Goliaths would not vote out one of their own, Mike targeted Christian, and the Davids had to choose to work together or accept being picked off. Davie played his idol to save Christian but did not tell Nick or Christian that he had an idol. All Davie told them was to vote for John. I suspect Davie was using that vote as a loyalty test. Nick and Christian and Davie voted out John with the idol.

So there was no real trust amongst the Davids. They were willing to sacrifice Elizabeth to form bonds with different Goliaths. When that didn’t work, they pulled togehter to strengthen their overall position. But it was still Gabby and Christian and Carl and Davie with Nick in the middle.

Once the Davids had the numbers, the David factions re-emerged. Carl started dictating votes and leaving Gabby out of conversations. Then Carl left Christian out of the Alison conversation and told Christian to lie to Gabby. I am more surprised that Nick and Davie did not see that Carl’s actions were hurting Nick and Davies position because the only way to read it was that the three of them were the top of the alliance with Gabby and Christian at the bottom. Hell, below Angelina. 

The Goliaths were in disarray and willing to be votes. Use the Goliaths to take out the threats at final tribal, all of which were now Davids. 

I don’t think Kara and Alison are allied with anyone, I think they are both floating and Kara is doing a better job of it. Angelina and Mike are most likely allied and allied with Nick (left over from the Natalie and Lyrsa votes).

Now Davie and Nick have both managed to anger the other one for different reasons. Davie was upset because Nick didn’t tell him about the bogus idol and Nick is upset that Davie was targeting Nick. Nick plays a more emotional game then Davie’s strategic game but Davie seems to be someone who remembers that Nick flipped on the Jessica vote and lost Davie’s trust. So any lack of info sharing is problematic.  

The Davids were never a united group. Hell, the Goliaths were far more united then the Davids. The Davids had the right combo of idols, advantges, and information to be able to change the momentum in the game. But their internal factions were always there.  

[millennium]

I was saddened but not surprised to see Christian voted out.   He is certainly unique among the "types" of players we have seen on this show.   He's a decent guy too.

To be fair, all the players seem fairly decent.   One big element missing from this season is venality, and the meanness that goes with it.   All the remaining players (and most who have already been eliminated) seem to have the attitude that it's just a game.   There's nobody who *must* win for their dying mother, or because they're dirt poor, or any of the purported motivations espoused by other players in the past.   The vitriol and pettiness I associate with those seasons seems almost  entirely absent this time.  (I say almost because of Angelina, but even she's relatively low-key in her scheming and self-promotion).

If I were to guess, I'd say Christian will be back in a future season, so there's that to look forward to.

Davie is a very clever fellow.

Angelina seems headed for final three despite not deserving it.

[laprin]

23 hours ago, wallflower75 said:

I suddenly find myself picturing a final 3 of Angelina, Mike, and Alison, and pitying the poor jury who has to pick between them.  Ugh.

Lord, please no. Amen. 

[jumper sage]

Another great episode.  My favorite part was Angelina pulling out the rice card.  She really thinks she this master negotiator because of one class?  The coat, the rice and the reward says differently.

[EllenB]

I find it amusing that if it's MY favorite player doing something to cause another player's downfall, it's clever and great game-play.  If another player does it to my player, they're a devious low-life villain.  I love this season because (since I'm too old to have fan-crushes on any player to elevate them into ridiculous levels of perfection) they all seem to be decent individuals who get along on a personal level.  There's no nasty tackling of a player to get an idol that person has found, there's no vomit-inducing personal attacks.  So I like nearly all the players this season, and the only exceptions are those who are too invisible for too long.  I don't dislike them, I just kind of forget about them.    

[breezy424]

The Davids screwed themselves when they voted Carl off.  Thanks Gabby.  Wrong move.  And I kind of lost my faith in Christian with his game playing when he went along with it.  And Gabby went way down in my book.  Then add her strategy of voting off Christian.

[MisterBluxom]

14 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

In what way would it be a Survivor first?

But Christian didn't really read the room fully either. He told us in this ep that Davie told him to play his idol prior to TC. Sure, he didn't know if Davie was telling the truth, but it's not like he had no idea what was going on either.

Does Davie have another idol? I've seen a few people mention it, but I only remember the one he used on Christian and the one he used in this ep on himself.

If you want to know if Davie has another idol, you might find out by checking one of the spoiler threads. Of course, you should not do that if you don't want to see any other spoiler type info.

The spoiler threads should be a last resort for people who want to find some info but can't find it in the episode threads.

Also, you may be wondering why no one is answering you. I really don't know but one possibility is that people may feel that is spoiler info and they don't want to cause any harm to anyone by posting it in this thread.

For what it's worth, I'd like to tell you that I enjoy your posts very much and I wish you the best of luck.

[jumper sage]

Did Christian have an idol and didn't play it?

[MisterBluxom]

12 minutes ago, breezy424 said:

The Davids screwed themselves when they voted Carl off.  Thanks Gabby.  Wrong move.  And I kind of lost my faith in Christian with his game playing when he went along with it.  And Gabby went way down in my book.  Then add her strategy of voting off Christian.

I can't know for sure. But I think that it really hurt Christian's heart when Gabby turned against him and that knocked him right off his rails so to speak. That made it very difficult for him to play a strong game after that. He was kind of like a wounded bird and was just sitting in the middle of the road staring at the approaching headlights. I feel sorry for him. I know what it's like to be betrayed by someone you thought really cared for you. The strange thing is that in Gabby's mind, she may really have cared for him. But most people just seem to think that just means there may be something wrong with her mind. I must admit that one has to wonder.

4 minutes ago, jumper sage said:

Did Christian have an idol and didn't play it?

I'm almost positive he had no more idols.

2 hours ago, jumper sage said:

Another great episode.  My favorite part was Angelina pulling out the rice card.  She really thinks she this master negotiator because of one class?  The coat, the rice and the reward says differently.

I finally figured out just who would have married her. I don't mean that I know the specific individual. I'm just guessing the only men that would marry Aggravina are those who are desperate to get a Green Card and figure they can get one by marrying a US citizen.  I'm just joking but I'm completely serious about how much I dislike that crazy lady.

Edited December 14, 2018 by MisterBluxom

[Wandering Snark]

5 hours ago, millennium said:

There's nobody who *must* win for their dying mother, or because they're dirt poor, or any of the purported motivations espoused by other players in the past.

No single mother/father just trying to make a better life for their kids either. You're right, that has been a refreshing change/break from the norm.

[green]

1 hour ago, jumper sage said:

Did Christian have an idol and didn't play it?

No, Christian had to use his idol up at last week's tribal which saved him then. 

Nor did Davie have a second idol he could use on Christian.  And had he used his lone idol on Christian instead of himself he probably would have been voted out instead since he would have ended up tied with Alison and the other 5 obviously split their votes between him and Christian because of a possible idol.  He would have been toast during the re-vote.

Anyway, all the idols after this tribal have now been played.  I don't know when re-hidden idols stop falling like rain on the island so I don't know if one will be re-hidden again or not.  I do know that Davie had better win immunity based on this last tribal unless something happens to put the target on someone else.  And something more than often does happen so I hope Davie survives and makes F3.

Edited December 14, 2018 by green

[millennium]

1 hour ago, Wandering Snark said:

No single mother/father just trying to make a better life for their kids either. You're right, that has been a refreshing change/break from the norm.

I like it.   Because most times, the folks you described don't win a dime, which is no fun to watch.  Those who do get ahead in the game, or even to the finals, get there at least in part on the strength of their sob story, and that ultimately feels cheap and exploitative. 

[violet and green]

8 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

Nick is the one person who seems to have allianes across the different factions in the Davids. There was the Jessica/Bi/Carl/Davie faction and the Elizabeth/Christian/Gabby/Lyrsa faction. Nick was between the two groups. Nick agreed to vote out Jessica and then tossed all the blame on Gabby. Shortly after that vote Bi quit and the tribe swap happened. We saw Bi and Carl fuming over the blindside. Davie seemed to take it in stride. Nick and Christian threw Gabby under the bus. 

Nick voted out Natalie but was fine with sacrificing Lyrsa before the merge. There wasn’t even a tie vote that led to his changing his vote and voting out Lyrsa, he just voted her out. 

Once the merge happened, all of the Davids tried to find Goliaths to play with but the Goliaths would not play with the Davids. The Davids tried to show the various Goliaths that they were working with, like Alec, Mike and Alison in the Strike Force, that they culd be trusted so they all voted for Elizabeth. After that it was clear that the Goliaths would not vote out one of their own, Mike targeted Christian, and the Davids had to choose to work together or accept being picked off. Davie played his idol to save Christian but did not tell Nick or Christian that he had an idol. All Davie told them was to vote for John. I suspect Davie was using that vote as a loyalty test. Nick and Christian and Davie voted out John with the idol.

So there was no real trust amongst the Davids. They were willing to sacrifice Elizabeth to form bonds with different Goliaths. When that didn’t work, they pulled togehter to strengthen their overall position. But it was still Gabby and Christian and Carl and Davie with Nick in the middle.

Once the Davids had the numbers, the David factions re-emerged. Carl started dictating votes and leaving Gabby out of conversations. Then Carl left Christian out of the Alison conversation and told Christian to lie to Gabby. I am more surprised that Nick and Davie did not see that Carl’s actions were hurting Nick and Davies position because the only way to read it was that the three of them were the top of the alliance with Gabby and Christian at the bottom. Hell, below Angelina. 

The Goliaths were in disarray and willing to be votes. Use the Goliaths to take out the threats at final tribal, all of which were now Davids. 

I don’t think Kara and Alison are allied with anyone, I think they are both floating and Kara is doing a better job of it. Angelina and Mike are most likely allied and allied with Nick (left over from the Natalie and Lyrsa votes).

Now Davie and Nick have both managed to anger the other one for different reasons. Davie was upset because Nick didn’t tell him about the bogus idol and Nick is upset that Davie was targeting Nick. Nick plays a more emotional game then Davie’s strategic game but Davie seems to be someone who remembers that Nick flipped on the Jessica vote and lost Davie’s trust. So any lack of info sharing is problematic.  

The Davids were never a united group. Hell, the Goliaths were far more united then the Davids. The Davids had the right combo of idols, advantges, and information to be able to change the momentum in the game. But their internal factions were always there.  

You seem to be viewing some strange alternate reality, that overlooks the fact that come the merge the Davids were in the minority. Some other points:

Nick was not 'fine' with sacrificing Lyrsa, he tried hard to get Mike to go for the idea of voting out the far more dangerous Angelina, and Mike wimped out. He did not 'just vote her out' willynilly; having got out a Goliath the vote before, he accepted the fact that the Goliaths weren't sacrificing another member, no matter how much air guitar he played with Mike, and it was better Lyrsa than him.

Once the merge happened, there were 6 Davids and 7 Goliaths. What should they have done? Lain down and and died? Of course they were trying to find an in with any Goliath - it didn't mean they weren't aware of previous loyalties, it was survival, on Survivor.

They were willing to sacrifice Elizabeth on the anyone-but-me platform, given they didn't have the numbers to successfully swing anything else - and it appeared given she was referred to as "Chaos" (I've forgotten the exact phrase) it may have been for comfort around camp if she was difficult to live with as much as anything that she went; and Carl also had a personal grudge against her - so it's obvious why her boot was more appealing than having the target on any of them.

'Once the Davids had the numbers'... It didn't happen automatically or by osmosis - it took three advantages, the hours put in as a group and individually to find those advantages, the sharing of the knowledge, the pooling of those advantages, some very clever strategy and counter-strategy, good communication, good acting, fellow feeling, and the saving of Christian, a core David alliance member, to claw the numbers into their favor.

Which number advantage Gabby then insisted be thrown away - in a fit of petulance, bringing Christian down with her, and leaving the Davids decimated and now down to two. They could have held the numbers advantage, and we would have a very different final tribal.

[Nashville]

12 hours ago, violet and green said:

No, Gabby read her position - bottom of a five person alliance that had held steady as other alliances shifted and crumbled and/or faded out into nothing c/- Mike and Alison's chickenhearted wishywashyness.

Carl’s immediate target beyond Alison was Gabby to be sure, but I don’t think you can separate and ignore the loud and clear signals sent to Christian out of that situation.  Carl was in the process of establishing his own little ruling junta, Davie and Nick were part of Carl’s inner circle, and Christian had no part in it except as their toilet paper - to be the repository for their shit, and disposed of when convenient.

[violet and green]

41 minutes ago, Nashville said:

Carl’s immediate target beyond Alison was Gabby to be sure, but I don’t think you can separate and ignore the loud and clear signals sent to Christian out of that situation.  Carl was in the process of establishing his own little ruling junta, Davie and Nick were part of Carl’s inner circle, and Christian had no part in it except as their toilet paper - to be the repository for their shit, and disposed of when convenient.

File it, don't forget it - but don't torpedo your numbers advantage and piss off your alliance of Nick and Davie to placate your upset lady friend. That's what I wish Christian had done.

They/he could have quietly agreed to vote out Alison that vote, as planned, and then a tribal or so down the line get out Carl, who got drunk and bossy that ep, if they felt so inclined.

How anyone could think ditching the Davids for the likes of Alison and Mike - king and queen of non-follow-through - who kept targeting Christian, was a preferable road to hoe, I can't imagine.

The proof is clear, anyway, there they sit on the jury. Bad move.

Edited December 14, 2018 by violet and green
annoying typo

[amazingracefan]

It gets skipped over because of the favourable edit but Davie's reasoning that Nick wouldn't look for another idol because he already had one was completely wrong.

[Nashville]

1 minute ago, amazingracefan said:

It gets skipped over because of the favourable edit but Davie's reasoning that Nick wouldn't look for another idol because he already had one was completely wrong.

Davie’s reasoning was the other way around - he suspected Nick tried passing off his preexisting idol as the “new” idol  (re-placed after Christian’s TC idol play) to keep everybody else from looking - giving Nick free reign to search for the new idol without competition.

[Eolivet]

11 hours ago, millennium said:

There's nobody who *must* win for their dying mother, or because they're dirt poor, or any of the purported motivations espoused by other players in the past.

Heh, now I'm remembering Nick's tearful breakdown in the shelter on night 1 during the almost-cyclone about his dead mother and someone saying, "You should've held onto that until the end." And they captioned it, in case you missed it.

I feel like I know more about Christian's family life from that one letter from his dad that said, "Make Jeff laugh" than I do from everyone on Sob Story Island last year. Short-handing character development with a sob story was lazy writing/editing, and I'm glad they've gotten rid of it because it was so awkward (yes, Jeremy, yes, Adam, but anybody else remember Ken's magically appearing daughter in mvgx in, like, the last two episodes?)

Personal details this season are almost being used as a weapon (who, for example, wishes they'd never heard that Angelina took extra debate classes at Yale?). For the first time in a while, the editors also seem to be good writers.

[Nashville]

14 hours ago, rasalas said:

Each contestant does not get a camera crew. There would be crew people in every shot if so. There are several crews, and they follow whatever activity seems relevant for coverage, which led to my original post. 

Okay, so maybe the follow-cam coverage is more zone than man-to-man - but that doesn’t alter my basic thesis: ANY movement away from the main tribal body is likely to be followed by a camera crew on spec, and therefore would not be considered remarkably significant.

 

1 hour ago, violet and green said:

File it, don't forget it - but don't torpedo your numbers advantage and piss off your alliance of Nick and Davie to placate your upset lady friend. That's what I wish Christian had done.

But if the alliance’s clearly stated immediate targets are allies (Gabby) and/or allies of allies (Alison), then a delay in action is its own particular brand of torpedo; you’re allowing them enough time to erode your support structure to the point of nonexistence/irrelevance - at which point it has become too late for any kind of meaningful pushback.

it wasn’t for lack of trying (Brochachos, Strikeforce, etc.) but after multiple alliance implosions, in the end Christian was down to two primary allies - Gabby and Nick.  So when one of those two suddenly starts demonstrating their primary loyalty is to an alliance other than Christian, then I can hardly fault Christian for embracing the other all the more tightly.

[ProfCrash]

9 hours ago, jumper sage said:

Another great episode.  My favorite part was Angelina pulling out the rice card.  She really thinks she this master negotiator because of one class?  The coat, the rice and the reward says differently.

She had two classes, the regular class and the master class. And it was at Yale, so that has to be the equivalent of 8 classes at any other school. Only she could negotiate such a savvy deal to get the rice.

I agree that the players this season have been solid people who are fun to watch. No one seems to be interested in simply coasting along. People are trying to play, with varying degrees of success but at least they are all trying to play. It is one of the better casts that they have had. I am a bit surprised that Probst has not been bragging about this season because it is gold. Maybe he has learned that people get concerned when they hear Probst says he loves a season. I see that as code for "Russell Hantz or a Russell Hantz wanna be is going to be playing and it is amazing."

I love seasons where the villians are not really villians and the players are just decent people who seem to enjoy the game and each other.

[wallflower75]

20 hours ago, CountryGirl said:

FTFY. Also, does she not remember Brenda, who gave up a loved one's visit for her entire tribe and they turned right around and voted her out. I loved that Davie ignored her.

 

I knew I'd left something out--thanks! :D

And you raise a good point that when someone does something that is so obviously designed to earn brownie points, it inevitably backfires.  (Even if you don't decide to earn brownie points but keep something to yourself, a la Cindy and the car in Guatemala, you still get screwed.)

[MisterBluxom]

15 hours ago, GaT said:

I love him. If there's another "popular" season, he has to come back.

I think Christian could have a fabulous career going around to cities and holding "Survivor Seminars". He could charge people $100 easy to come and hear his theories. No one would understand anything he says. But it would be one of the most enjoyable experiences of their lives.

[peachmangosteen]

14 hours ago, ProfCrash said:

I don’t think Kara and Alison are allied with anyone, I think they are both floating and Kara is doing a better job of it. Angelina and Mike are most likely allied and allied with Nick (left over from the Natalie and Lyrsa votes).

What are your thoughts on Alison and Mike? Alison clearly believes Mike is like her tried and true, #1 ally but it seems like Mike doesn't give one shit about her lol.

Edited December 14, 2018 by peachmangosteen

[RedbirdNelly]

On ‎12‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 8:04 PM, Ms Blue Jay said:

Next week the reward HAS to be a trip to a Jacket Factory.  And I need Nick or Davie to win it.  And for them to not share it with Angelina.

 

this is just the funniest line ever.

[Drogo]

Just now, peachmangosteen said:

What are your thought on Alison and Mike? Alison clearly believes Mike is like her tried and true, #1 ally but it seems like Mike doesn't give one shit about her lol.

It's hard to get a read on Mike's feelings for anyone.  The man gave his own boyfriend a Voldemort hug.

[Carolina Girl]

On 12/12/2018 at 6:05 PM, mojoween said:

I mean, Christian is no Yul, but I came to adore that boy.

There was something so refreshingly direct and funny about him.  He didn't have the dramatic ANGST so many of these players try to portray in their talking heads, about what great people they are but they must be savage now and Oh NO, it's killing me to do this.  I think he did genuinely like everyone and he didn't delude himself - unlike the standard line every snot contestant mutters - I think Christian DID come to Survivor to "make friends."

I certainly hope he gets fan favorite.  I know this is one time I'll make sure to vote as many times as I can.