S11.E03: Rosa

[rab01]

7 minutes ago, hnygrl said:

This was admittedly hard to watch. I had to keep turning away...I recorded it so I can re-watch if I need to.

I was born in Memphis, Tennessee, the deep south, right when this stuff was going on. The first half brought back too many memories. I was having emotional flashbacks, one after the other, till I had to turn away till that part was over. The looks, the slap, soon as I saw that handkerchief fall I knew it was gonna be bad. Do you know? Men have been KILLED for doing what he did? That was too much for me. And the looks at the restaurant. Damn. Couldn't take it. Although "we don't serve coloreds here" "good, cause I don't eat 'em" Good for you kid!

Not a fan...but well...I lived it. Boy, girl, being said to 70, 80 year old men and women...I didn't like it.  Never got called ma'am or sir. Only BOY or GIRL. Let me stop. I'm still 'het up' from that one. 

It was good, but too dark.

Bit of history for my British friends: 

It was actually Claudette Colvin, aged 15, who got arrested and kicked off the bus, but she was both too young and too belligerent to be the 'mother of a movement' so the NAACP chose their secretary, one Rosa Parks, to go out and catch that bus again, sit in the white section on purpose, and pray she got arrested. She was older, more mature, and calmer overall than a hotheaded kid. This was a well-planned, well-executed endeavor. It wasn't just a tired lady who didn't want to move, this was planned. It was Claudette Colvin who should've gotten all those accolades, she's the real mother of the movement.

Didn't 'get' the future racist thing. I would've liked to see him fleshed out more, why was he there, what was he trying to accomplish in the future, where (and when) was he from, stuff like that. He was there, he was British, then he was gone. Uh....huh? What? Wha-happened? What a waste of a villain.

So far, 3 episodes in, the villains for this season have been boringly, shockingly weak.

Your point about this being planned and Rosa Parks being a determined volunteer is why I didn't like this episode.  Even if the future racist (neoest-nazi?) managed to prevent it on one day, she'd have made her stand pretty soon so this story made our characters too central to the narrative.  That was just a Very Special Episode that didn't do justice to the civil rights movement even while trying to showcase them. 

I did still like the scene setting and the characters' reactions to events.  It's much better than last season when Bill had to remind Capaldi's doctor that her color was a problem for her in older London but then it didn't really show up in other people's reactions to her.

[Dobian]

I agree with the comment that this really felt like a Quantum Leap episode, and a lot of Quantum Leap episodes took place in this time period including a few in the pre-civil rights south.

I liked the Emmett Till reference, one of the great injustices of that era which itself contributed significantly to the civil rights cause.

I didn't want the episode to become so preoccupied with stopping history from being changed that it trivialized the whole civil rights movement.  Had Rosa Parks not sat on that bus, a great piece of history would have been lost, but the civil rights movement still would have happened.  It wasn't born from that one event, but from generations of oppression.  Martin Luther King still would have done his thing, and they would have found some other catalyzing moment as a rallying point.  There were plenty of them.

[theschnauzers]

Getting to the episode itself.....count me as one of those who think this was a brilliant, brilliant, episode, one of the best of the contemporary era. (I include both “Vincent and the Doctor” and “Blink” in that rarified category.)

like many, I wondered how this would be pulled off without any missteps. And they did. It’s not that the Doctor hasn’t been at turning points of history before, but this was the one time s/he was trying to prevent a change in history, and that was a brilliant narrative twist. The actress (who apparently was in the Tenth Doctor episode “42” ) did an excellent job portraying Rosa, who I can recall watching over the years and speaking of these particular events. I was impressed.

Edited October 22, 2018 by theschnauzers

[Llywela]

I haven't finished organising my thoughts yet, but skimming through this thread I've noticed a bunch of posts grumbling that this episode was 'ripping off' some other time travel show. Well, I don't know the other show in question, but I would like to point out that Doctor Who has been a show about time travel since 1963 - the Doctor's very first televised adventure involved landing in the distant past and getting tangled up in local politics, which is pretty much what happened here. Historical adventures in Doctor Who have taken many forms over the decades, according to the style of the era and head writer at the time. In the 11.02 episode thread I listed a whole bunch of First Doctor historicals that weren't so very far removed from this one - TARDIS lands in the past, the Doctor & team explore, find themselves involved with historical events/characters, and must survive and extricate themselves without upsetting the timeline, all of which also serves the purpose of introducing the audience to historical eras and historical figures they may never have encountered before - so what this episode actually was, in fact, was a return to the show's roots (with a few modern twists). There are always going to be similarities between TV shows about time travel, because they will inevitably find themselves dealing with similar issues and themes, just due to the nature of the genre, and that's okay.

This season so far has been pitched quite young, and that really showed in this episode, I felt, so yes, as others have commented, the episode simplified the issues involved as well as the story of Rosa Parks itself, necessarily so both for the sake of the target audience and the run-time (plus, y'know, the demands of Plot). There is only so much you can achieve in under an hour of television - the point isn't to try to cram in every single detail of what really happened, leaving no room for either plot or character, but rather to introduce the basic outline of the story and concepts involved in a way a new audience can engage with, which might hopefully whet their appetites to go away and find out more for themselves - that was very much the original intention of the show, and that seemed to be what Chris Chibnall and Malorie Blackman were aiming for here.

So, the episode was pitched young and was a bit clunky in places, but overall, I thought, did a solid job of turning a historical event into an engaging, entertaining and emotional Doctor Who adventure. I thought the ending was really powerful and really leaned into the strength of a true historical: the agony of wanting to help but having to hold back because you know, no matter how much they will suffer, no matter how much you want to help them, they didn’t need outside help to change the world. Not being the hero because you know that there is already a hero there, and they are going to change the world without any help from all-powerful aliens. I thought that was really beautifully done.

There were some lovely moments throughout the episode - at last, they've started to split the team, which they really need to do, as it allows the characters to go off and have little mini-adventures of their own, allowing us to get to know them better as individuals. With both a black and Asian companion on board this season, it was right that the first historical adventure faced the issue of race head on, right off the bat, and this setting forced them to do just that. I'm a little disappointed about the space nazi guy coming from the far future to try to disrupt the civil rights movement, since it would be nice to imagine that humanity might eventually be able to move past racism - but I can imagine that this guy was an outlier, an anomaly, rather than representative of any kind of entrenched racist attitudes of the 79th century, or wherever he was supposed to come from.

Quite a few elements of show continuity coming into play here - the vortex manipulators and the Stormcage being case in point, but subtly done, so that new viewers wouldn't be thrown off by not knowing what those are, since they were adequately explained within the context of the episode itself.

I was surprised by the Doctor's non-reaction to Ryan shooting Krasko away into some other era of history - I'd have expected her to have something to say about that! For one thing, it just makes him someone else's problem, without the Doctor there to help, and for another...companions don't usually go around shooting villains, even with a non-lethal weapon. Also, did Ryan say he'd adjusted the settings? How simple was that weapon that he could figure out how to do that? Also, did the Doctor confiscate the gun or does Ryan still have it???

I have other thoughts, but no time right now, so I'll just summarise: heavy-handed in places but generally a strong episode. I am enjoying this season!

[Glendenning]

There was a King's Demons vibe to the whole thing, right down to an inept villain whose plan might have succeeded if he'd not drawn attention to himself. Seriously, why not tell the scumbag driver that he could have a day off then leg it for Alaska leaving the Doctor either none the wiser or chasing him across the continent once the damage is already done? It's also unfortunate for him that Rosa Parks is literally the third person the Doctor meets on her arrival in Alabama. 

Emblematic as Parks' protest is, it didn't create the civil rights movement, which would have found other outlets (in much the same way that Magna Carta is symbolically significant but didn't actually change much*). Possibly we're supposed to understand that the villain is dim enough not to have grasped this, in which case, it's peculiar that the Doctor doesn't spell this out for us. But, peculiarly, once the Doctor is on to his plot against Parks, he never once thinks to change tack and take out MLK - surely the one person whose removal from history would have the biggest effect on the civil rights movement. 

(* Cue: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oJ4mxOluXY4)

[MissLucas]

Not much to add except that I love the idea of the Doctor being Banksy!

[Llywela]

8 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

Not much to add except that I love the idea of the Doctor being Banksy!

Hee. And I love when the Doctor has fun messing with people like that!

[Writing Wrongs]

9 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

For me, one of the most touching moments was Graham's dismay at having to stay on the bus -- at having to be one of the white people that Rosa was told to give up her seat to.  That was poignant.

I felt so bad for him.

That was a tough episode to watch

The villain was also an evil time traveler on the short-lived, Time After Time tv show. I knew Ryan would zap the guy out of time. 

[darkestboy]

I think this episode will go down as a classic. I did have some concerns that they wouldn't be able to do Rosa's story justice but this episode more than proved me wrong.

Malorie Blackman has to come back and write another episode and Vinette Robinson was incredible as Rosa. She played the role beautifully.

Seeing the Doctor and company unable to get involved during the bus moment was devastating to watch. I'm loving Graham, Ryan and Yasmin as companions. All three of them just work as a unit with the Doctor.

Yasmin and Ryan's discussion of racism was poignant and the show certainly didn't hold back on exploring the topic.

Krasko probably should've been saved for another episode but he was effective enough and I do get the feeling we'll be seeing him again. I wonder if he's met River in Stormcage?

Beautiful use of that Andra Day son at the end of this episode too, 10/10

[John Potts]

I don't know if anyone else caught this, but I think there might have been a subtle message presented in this episode. Apparently... racism is bad.

But cynicism aside (like Vincent and the Doctor) I did like the admission that her heroism didn't immediately solve things and that Rosa Parks had a pretty crappy life as a result. And I do like the admission that for all the Doctor swans around like he (or now, she) is in charge, being a travelling with a black man in the Deep South is going to cause problems. Liked Yaz getting called "Mexican" too (Cause to that mindset, all brown people are the same, right?), though I'd have thought, given the multicultural nature of the current TARDIS crew, she'd have been called "Half-breed" (or whatever the contemporary slur would have been), particularly with Graham referring to Ryan as his grandson.

9 hours ago, Eolivet said:

And because I found their investment in Rosa Parks forced, I couldn't really embrace the episode. It'd be one thing if they were like "oh yeah, I've sort of heard of her,"

I actually liked Ryan saying, "Wasn't she the first black woman to drive a bus?" because that seemed the sort of level of awareness somebody born 40+ years later might have via a sort of historical Chinese whispers.

[benteen]

One critics noted this episode was very much like a First Doctor historical.  I would agree with that.  It was technically a pseudo-historical since future technology is used and that there's a threat to history.  Usually in those early Hartnell episodes, there wasn't someone trying to change history and the main danger was staying out of history's wall.  The Doctor would give a speech about how you couldn't change a single line of history, not one.  Still, even with the threat to history, this episode was almost a strictly historical story.  Right down to the end where The Doctor couldn't interfere with Rosa getting arrested. 

Even the solution isn't low-tech.  It's all about outthinking the villain. 

Speaking of technology though, they are using the sonic screwdriver WAY too much.

Edited October 22, 2018 by benteen

[libgirl2]

9 hours ago, Leia1021 said:

If I wanted to watch Quantum Leap, I'd go look for re-runs.  This is not Dr. Who to me.  Didn't like it at all.  

I was also very reminded of QL. 

[WatchrTina]

49 minutes ago, benteen said:

Speaking of technology though, they are using the sonic screwdriver WAY too much.

And it unexplained ways.  What was going on with that last, very deliberate, wave of the screwdriver at the bad guy's leg?  That was never explained.

I'm struck by the fact that this is the second episode where a scared/angry young man has done violence/used a weapon on the bad guy.  The Doctor was angry when -- in the very first episode -- that guy on the crane kicked the melting, tooth-faced villain off the crane (though he teleported somewhere before he hit the ground.)  I'm guessing the The Doctor is not going to be best pleased when she finds out Ryan used the bad guy's weapon against him.  Mark my words -- that action will have ramifications in a future episode. 

[Chaos Theory]

I love when in time travel shows the time traveler is the one that gets involved in the history.  Oh God no..,it was us all along.  It’s not Quantum Leap this actually reminds me of but 12 Monkeys....the tv show.  It always turned out to be them all along.   

[Sakura12]

The Doctor had met many famous historical figures, Shakespeare, Van Gogh, Dickens. Why is meeting Rosa Parks different then them?

I liked this episode for what it what it meant. They didn't inspire Rosa Parks or take away what she did. They just made sure she was in the bus. I know it's not completely accurate but they only had an hour to tell a story. And we don't know if she always planned on standing her ground that day or not. 

I also liked that Ryan didn't entirely know what Rosa Parks did, that's what some kids probably think being born 40+ years later. I also liked that Graham said his Nan would be upset with him not knowing about her. I'm happy Doctor Who did this episode so kids can at learn who Rosa Parks is and maybe inspire them to find out more about her. 

I liked hearing Ryan and Yaz talking about how racism is still around and has only gotten slightly better. I liked them showing that while traveling to the 1950's would be cool, when really it's not if you are any race other than white. 

The Doctor saying maybe she's Banksy was fun. And Yaz thinking about that for a second. 

Edited October 22, 2018 by Sakura12

[Chaos Theory]

I love when in time travel shows the time traveler is the one that gets involved in the history.  Oh God no..,it was us all along.  It’s not Quantum Leap this actually reminds me of but 12 Monkeys....the tv show.  It always turned out to be them all along.   Of course Graham  who is married to a black woman and is raising her black grandson in the future turns out to be the white person Rosa Parks won’t give up her seat for... of course it has to be him. 

The look on his face....and The Doctor’s face broke my heart.

 

<——-Edited post for weird errors.  Typed quickly and I have no idea why I keep calling Graham the wrong name.

Edited October 22, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[Ceindreadh]

8 hours ago, rab01 said:

Your point about this being planned and Rosa Parks being a determined volunteer is why I didn't like this episode.  Even if the future racist (neoest-nazi?) managed to prevent it on one day, she'd have made her stand pretty soon so this story made our characters too central to the narrative.  That was just a Very Special Episode that didn't do justice to the civil rights movement even while trying to showcase them. 

I did still like the scene setting and the characters' reactions to events.  It's much better than last season when Bill had to remind Capaldi's doctor that her color was a problem for her in older London but then it didn't really show up in other people's reactions to her.

I don’t think that Rosa’s original defiance was planned - at least not from what I’ve read, including that article by her niece that’s linked to earlier in the thread. 

I believe that what was planned was to use her arrest as a test case to challenge the law, because unlike some earlier instances of people refusing to give up their seats, Rosa was mature, respectable, and nobody could accuse her of being a troublemaker. She was an ideal case to use when it happened, but she didn’t go out of her way to make it happen. 

 

I found the episode almost scarier than others, mainly because the threat wasn’t from any alien or technological threat but from ordinary humans.  I was almost shouting at the Doctor to leave the ‘kids’ behind in the TARDIS because it wasn’t going to be safe. I still don’t get why they had to get the hotel room instead of returning to the TARDIS, yes the time traveler knew where it was, but he couldn’t get in and if he was watching them, he couldn’t be running around messing with the timeline. 

I know the getting kicked out of the bar/restaurant scene was so as to remind us about the racism, but why on earth did they think they’d be left in peace. I could understand the Doctor simply not thinking about it and Yas and Ryan it just might not have occurred to them that it’d be an issue, but Graham surely (since he’s at least a little bit woke) should have been thinking it might not be a good idea for them all to sit down together. 

[Llywela]

46 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

And it unexplained ways.  What was going on with that last, very deliberate, wave of the screwdriver at the bad guy's leg?  That was never explained.

I'm struck by the fact that this is the second episode where a scared/angry young man has done violence/used a weapon on the bad guy.  The Doctor was angry when -- in the very first episode -- that guy on the crane kicked the melting, tooth-faced villain off the crane (though he teleported somewhere before he hit the ground.)  I'm guessing the The Doctor is not going to be best pleased when she finds out Ryan used the bad guy's weapon against him.  Mark my words -- that action will have ramifications in a future episode. 

When the Doctor waved the sonic at the bloke, she was scanning him - she told him later that she'd scanned him and knew that he had a chip in his head to prevent him killing. It was a weird gesture, but she did explain it.

And she knows about Ryan blasting the bad guy into the past, he fessed up to that immediately, as soon as he got on the bus. I was really surprised that she let it pass without comment - I expected a lecture, at the very least! She didn't even confiscate the gun.

33 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

I love when in time travel shows the time traveler is the one that gets involved in the history.  Oh God no..,it was us all along.  It’s not Quantum Leap this actually reminds me of but 12 Monkeys....the tv show.  It always turned out to be them all along.   Of Coyse Malcom who is married to a black woman and is raising her black grandson in the future turns out to be the white personality Rosa Parks won’t give up her seat for... of course it has to be him. 

I was confused for a moment reading this - you say Malcolm, but I think you mean Graham.

[Chaos Theory]

4 minutes ago, Llywela said:

 

I was confused for a moment reading this - you say Malcolm, but I think you mean Graham.

I have no idea why I keep calling him Malcom.  Maybe he looks like a Malcom to me.    I will fix.  

[benteen]

35 minutes ago, Ceindreadh said:

I know the getting kicked out of the bar/restaurant scene was so as to remind us about the racism, but why on earth did they think they’d be left in peace. I could understand the Doctor simply not thinking about it and Yas and Ryan it just might not have occurred to them that it’d be an issue, but Graham surely (since he’s at least a little bit woke) should have been thinking it might not be a good idea for them all to sit down together. 

Yeah, this was something I thought both The Doctor and Graham should have been aware of, repulsive as the thought is for both of them.  Legends of Tomorrow, another time travel show, had a scene like that were the Time Lord...er, MASTER (played by Rory himself!) warns his African-American teammate that while he might have met a woman who was very tolerant and evolved, that he was in the 1950s and needed to be careful when he was out in public.

I admit, I did get a laugh out of Graham and Ryan chasing "Jimmy Blake" away from the creek.

[Eulipian 5k]

Many have pointed out other ssci fi shows that involved historical themes

One of the more acclaimed Star Treks (TOS) involved Spock, Kirk, and McKoy being trapped in 20th century US where they had to let Joan Collins die to keep history on track so that her pacifism doesn't stop the US/FDR's entry into WWII.  (City on the Edge of Tomorrow). It's been done in the annals of Sci Fi. We also don't know what the 10th and Martha did while stuck in 1969 (Blink); the Doctor has had several swipes at the moon landing that year.

Officer Tippit is a random name from the Kennedy assassination that I remember , and I wasn't even in the US!, so I can believe that the bus driver's name became famous to some. Personally I suspect the actress playing Rosa was "off" on the pattern of speech and the accent, it seemed so  meek. In fact Mrs Parks was not just tired, she was resolute, she was the secretary of the organization that eventually called the bus strike and reached out to a young MLK to rally the folks into car pools, etc.; her actions were part of a planned offensive.

10 hours ago, hnygrl said:

so the NAACP chose their secretary, one Rosa Parks, to go out and catch that bus again, sit in the white section on purpose, and pray she got arrested. She was older, more mature, and calmer overall than a hotheaded kid. This was a well-planned, well-executed endeavor. It wasn't just a tired lady who didn't want to move, this was planned.

Edited October 22, 2018 by Eulipian 5k
Thx for passing on the knowledge Hnygrl

[The Companion]

11 hours ago, Ms Lark said:

Interesting article about Rosa Parks written by her niece: https://www.shondaland.com/inspire/a16022001/rosa-parks-was-my-aunt/

She did not like that bus driver and would usually let his bus go by without getting on.

Wow, this perspective makes me appreciate the episode more. They established the bad relationship with that particular bus driver and referenced Till. I think they really did a good job honoring the woman.

11 hours ago, LiveenLetLive said:

I must admit that I felt ashamed because this is American history, sigh, still loving Jodie. I found the episode quite moving.

I think the shame does show how far we have come. I actually thought the inability for modern people to navigate a segregated society was a hopeful juxatpositon. 

10 hours ago, QuantumMechanic said:

He was some random racist from the future trying to do an inverse "kill Hitler as a baby" to change the timeline.

I love the description of an "inverse 'kill Hitler as a baby'"

2 hours ago, John Potts said:

But cynicism aside (like Vincent and the Doctor) I did like the admission that her heroism didn't immediately solve things and that Rosa Parks had a pretty crappy life as a result. And I do like the admission that for all the Doctor swans around like he (or now, she) is in charge, being a travelling with a black man in the Deep South is going to cause problems. Liked Yaz getting called "Mexican" too (Cause to that mindset, all brown people are the same, right?), though I'd have thought, given the multicultural nature of the current TARDIS crew, she'd have been called "Half-breed" (or whatever the contemporary slur would have been), particularly with Graham referring to Ryan as his grandson.

Agreed. Actually like the Van Gogh episode, the show didn't shy away from the truth. It took things head on and treated her as person instead of a fairy tale.

 

I hear the discouragement about racists still existing in the future, but I think it was clear that he was not free to be that person in his time, or else he wouldn't be here. 

 

ETA: Shout out to whoever it was that pointed out that the Doctor is a Timelord Tahani Al Jamil. When she name dropped Elvis and Sinatra, it was all I could think about.

Edited October 22, 2018 by The Companion

[Llywela]

Thinking about it, this episode bore a very strong structural similarity to the First Doctor adventure The Time Meddler, which was the first pseudo-historical: i.e. the first historical adventure to also feature interference by some alien or other technology beyond the TARDIS team. In The Time Meddler, the Doctor and his companions land in the year 1066 and go off to explore, only to learn that another rogue Time Lord is also present and is attempting to alter history by luring Harald Hardrada's fleet of Vikings to attack England at the wrong time and place, so that he can wipe them out with neutron bombs, meaning that King Harold's army would not have to face them at Stamford Bridge and would thus be fresh for their battle with Duke William at Hastings. Basically, the plan is to prevent the Norman Conquest of the British Isles, for reasons even more vague than Krasko's in this episode: the rogue Time Lord known only as the Monk is basically a Trickster character, causing mischief just to prove that he can and to have fun along the way. In both adventures, the objective is not to save the world from some terrible alien invasion, but merely to prevent a fellow time traveller from altering the timeline for nefarious reasons of their own - and while The Time Meddler is primarily a humorous interlude in the First Doctor's travels, there are some lovely little character moments and at least one really hard-hitting scene in which the realities of Viking raids are implied (although not spelled out).

In structure, that serial is probably the closest to the model we see here.

[Writing Wrongs]

I'm not loving the inside of the Tardis so far. There's like a little vestibule when you come in and then the control room with those huge lava lamp columns. It actually looks really crowded. I hope they show more and it's really opened up.

[Pete Martell]

I was unsure about the episode before it aired, because I just don't think grafting social issues onto Doctor Who is the best idea (I know it's been done before but many times the results have made me cringe, especially in the revival), and because there's something a bit offputting in 2018 about a white character saving the day for a historical figure, and because the scripts so far haven't exactly filled me with confidence. 

Overall I thought it was good - better than I thought it would be, anyway. The rightful decision to strip away goofy asides meant that Jodie Whittaker delivered what I'd say is by far her best performance as The Doctor, making the role her own with many moments of seriousness and quiet strength (and she did have a few small comedic bits, which she nailed). Beyond that, the biggest assets came from the multi-companion format, especially since two of the companions are people of color who would experience prejudice directly. Their private conversation was the highlight of the episode for me, and touched on some complicated truths that I wasn't expecting. And it's so great to see companions who, while they clearly like and respect the Doctor and are enjoying the journey together, do not exist for the Doctor.

I did think Bradley Walsh was terrific in this episode, and made what could have been tone deaf (the white companion devastated and outraged by racism) feel much more natural and believable, but I'm glad he wasn't the only voice. In earlier years I can imagine a lot of scenes of Rose or Donna crying in closeup about how bad racism was, which both Billie and Catherine would have acted the hell out of, but it just wouldn't have fit the tone. I'm also glad the Doctor was, while clearly disgusted by what she was seeing, more conscious of staying in the background, instead of what we have gotten with some past Doctors, which amounts to focusing too much on how awesome it is that the Doctor hates racists and putting the suffering of the actual people being discriminated against in the background. 

I think my biggest complaints are that I didn't really understand why Ryan didn't immediately clock that he would experience racism when they got to 1955 (he may not have known a lot of history but he would have known that, surely), I didn't know why the Doctor didn't have them return to the TARDIS (before they decided they couldn't) for more appropriate clothes, and why this needed a sci-fi element at all.

I get the whole idea of telling us that the future also has racism (which would have been more profound if the scene itself hadn't been so clunky), but I really, really wish this could have been a flat out historical, with the Doctor and her companions preventing natural occurrences for the time period to help make sure history happens. I think this could have been done without taking away from Rosa's fight, and would have made for a more cohesive and powerful episode. 

I also thought that the locals were all one-dimensional props. While I understand why they did not want to go the usual route of inserting a sympathetic and wonderful white character, as we so often get in these types of subjects (Roots, The Help, etc.) having so many different caricatures, many of whom struggled badly with their attempts at Southern accents, made the episode feel much more artificial than it needed to be. 

(and while I understand why they didn't want to insert all kinds of material about MLK as well, him being introduced so randomly for one short sequence made me wonder if something with Ryan's story was cut for time)

[CatWarmer]

This episode made me think both of The Fires of Pompeii and The Waters of Mars. In both cases, The Doctor discussed fixed points in time and the consequences of trying to change them. Perhaps Rosa Parks refusing to stand was a fixed point that couldn’t be altered without grave results to the universe;  only The Doctor would really know. It may have been too complex of an issue to fit into this episode and one that new viewers might not really grasp yet.  So while it’s certainly likely that the civil rights movement would have taken off without this moment, maybe it was a necessary catalyst in history that had to happen.

[taanja]

12 hours ago, theschnauzers said:

I doubt they would have messed up the detail of Mr. Parks' skin color. There have been light or very light color blacks in the US dating back to per-revolutionary times. Up until the civil rights movement’s successes primarily in the 1960s, very light skin color blacks would be known to move to new cities and pass as if they were white. (There was an episode of Cold Case {"Libertyville"} on this very plot device which had Johnathon Schaech playing a character passing as white.)

This ^^ is the story of my family -- those that could "pass" and those that couldn't.

and believe me-- at that time in history where this episode took place-- just calling Ryan "boy" was mild compared to what he probably would have been called.

I'm glad someone else pointed out that whole Rosa Parks not giving up her spot on the bus was actually a planned event. And YES! I concur she was very brave to volunteer to do it. She knew very well she could be beaten to a pulp or killed for such an act. I thought the actress who portrayed her did a wonderful job of relaying the quiet strength and dignity that was so much part of that brave woman.

Overall the show did a better job than I thought it would.

[Glendenning]

That's what upsets me about the "leave things to local activists" view. Leaving people to their own devices doesn't work to well when they are facing an enemy willing to torture or kill to stop them

 

My school's learning materials for our students has to point out when we study To Kill a Mockingbird that there were very good reasons there wasn't more anti-segregationism in the Deep South of the Depression - because any black (or any white, for that matter) who protested would have been at serious risk of being killed by fanatics.

[libgirl2]

3 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I love when in time travel shows the time traveler is the one that gets involved in the history.  Oh God no..,it was us all along.  It’s not Quantum Leap this actually reminds me of but 12 Monkeys....the tv show.  It always turned out to be them all along.   Of course Graham  who is married to a black woman and is raising her black grandson in the future turns out to be the white person Rosa Parks won’t give up her seat for... of course it has to be him. 

The look on his face....and The Doctor’s face broke my heart.

 

<——-Edited post for weird errors.  Typed quickly and I have no idea why I keep calling Graham the wrong name.

I have to say, I wasn't enthused about the episode, but that part broke my heart. I still love Graham. 

2 hours ago, benteen said:

Yeah, this was something I thought both The Doctor and Graham should have been aware of, repulsive as the thought is for both of them.  Legends of Tomorrow, another time travel show, had a scene like that were the Time Lord...er, MASTER (played by Rory himself!) warns his African-American teammate that while he might have met a woman who was very tolerant and evolved, that he was in the 1950s and needed to be careful when he was out in public.

I admit, I did get a laugh out of Graham and Ryan chasing "Jimmy Blake" away from the creek.

That was a high light for me, a bit of a smile in a very dark episode. 

[Chaos Theory]

1 hour ago, CatWarmer said:

This episode made me think both of The Fires of Pompeii and The Waters of Mars. In both cases, The Doctor discussed fixed points in time and the consequences of trying to change them. Perhaps Rosa Parks refusing to stand was a fixed point that couldn’t be altered without grave results to the universe.

 

They were both also points where The Doctor was directly involved in.  As was he/she in Rosa Parks bus ride although passively so.  Just by being the The Doctor makes events fixed points.  

Edited October 22, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[Glendenning]

Claudette Colvin was a black, unwed, teenage mother. NO WAY would she have been a sympathetic figure in the mid-fifties. Calling her the "mother of the movement" when she had no hope of Park's fame is ridiculous. It's like saying Elvis "stole" black people's music, when Elvis always acknolwedged his debt and there was no way in hell black originals songs would get radio play on white-aimed stations even if Elvis had died as a baby.

[Eulipian 5k]

Can we have somebody check the frame on Gallifrey Falls (No More)? I have a suspicion there could be a problem the other doctors don't know about.

[Raingirlkm]

I got a big kick out of what Georgia Tennant posted about this episode: “My daughter hasn’t cried this much at #drwho since she watched her father turn into Prince Philip. #rosaparks”

Being in the US I saw her post way before I watched the episode, but it still surprised me a bit when I found myself getting teary at the end.

So far, I am finding that I am more engaged with this show than I have been in years.

[Kite]

5 hours ago, Pete Martell said:

I just don't think grafting social issues onto Doctor Who is the best idea

Maybe for you, you haven't thought of the show in general as telling us a particular view of people, because most of the time, it's aligned with your own.

And then an episode comes along that makes some people temporarily a bit uncomfortable (as opposed to all the episodes you didn't have a personal problem that had a constant wearing impact on others) and those people start losing their goddamn minds about the "heavy-handedness" that made them feel temporarily a bit uncomfortable. It's really telling how people react.

Edited October 22, 2018 by Kite

[QuantumMechanic]

18 hours ago, Kite said:

Maybe for you, you haven't thought of the show in general as telling us a particular view of people, because most of the time, it's aligned with your own.

And then an episode comes along that makes some people temporarily a bit uncomfortable (as opposed to all the episodes you didn't have a personal problem that had a constant wearing impact on others) and those people start losing their goddamn minds about the "heavy-handedness" that made them feel temporarily a bit uncomfortable. It's really telling how people react.

 

Didn't make me uncomfortable at all.  It was too boring to do that, for starters.

I'm fine with didactic TV when it's done well.

Edited October 23, 2018 by QuantumMechanic

[owenthurman]

I only saw a couple episodes of Quantum Leap, and they were poorly done; but it's possible that I randomly selected the worst.

Yet the "it's been done before" argument doesn't carry much weight for me. One example is when people called The Vampire Diaries a ripoff of Twilight... despite the fact that The Vampire Diaries books came out years before Twilight. Should an entire branch of storytelling be severed because it's been done before? Should a series need to define itself in such a way that it openly and proactively rejects similarity to other shows, ever? I don't think so.

I also don't find "not a Doctor Who episode" convincing. An open-ended series is many things, and we can extrapolate a sense of what it is likely to do; but to me, a great show will always have episodes that break their own pattern and do things you never would've expected. Like the Buffy episode, "The Body." 

"Too on-the-nose," "heavyhandedly didactic," and "anvilicious" always remind me of the forms of bogus literary criticism that were bought-and-paid-for by Henry Luce and his ilk. Angry about the fact that fiction contributed to social changes they disagreed with, like Abolition, the Labor movement, the Civil Rights movement, what was then known as "women's lib," and so on, they sponsored the Iowa Writing Workshop and The Paris Review, and gave them strict marching-orders: tell everyone that all good writing is apolitical. They paid scholars and professors to spread the ideology that if a story can inspire someone to try to change the world, then it's an inferior kind of storytelling. All portions of Luce's publishing empire were involved in this; Time Magazine would praise the staggering genius of apolitical authors and condemn (or ignore) the work of author-activists as lazy and dull, and you can find paeans of praise for the Iowa Writing Workshop in publications as far-spread as Boys Life and Popular Mechanics.

Those who are criticizing the episode for presenting Rosa Parks as reactive rather than proactive may have a point worth discussing.

Edited October 22, 2018 by owenthurman

[babs j.]

I don't know if you've ever seen the news photo of Rosa Parks being booked but it packs a punch.  She may come up to the shoulder of the policeman booking her but no more - this physically short slender woman with a large man behind her.

[Pete Martell]

1 hour ago, Kite said:

Maybe for you, you haven't thought of the show in general as telling us a particular view of people, because most of the time, it's aligned with your own.

And then an episode comes along that makes some people temporarily a bit uncomfortable (as opposed to all the episodes you didn't have a personal problem that had a constant wearing impact on others) and those people start losing their goddamn minds about the "heavy-handedness" that made them feel temporarily a bit uncomfortable. It's really telling how people react.

Are you talking about me or are you using a blanket post to complain about anyone in general? I never said the episode made me uncomfortable - it didn't - or that I disagreed with the topic of the episode - I didn't. Do you personally love any episode of a TV show that takes on a social issue topic as long as it shares your views?

I just don't think Doctor Who, especially in modern years, is all that wonderful in handling these topics.

Take "The Long Game." I agreed with RTD, if that is what he intended to say, that the Iraq war was a mistake, fueled by propaganda and lies. I still think it was a horribly written episode, a clunky embarrassment, one of the worst episodes of the show. 

Or there's "Thin Ice." As much as I, overall, liked the pairing of Bill and Twelve, I was put off that Bill experiencing racism amounted to little more than a scene where we could cheer because the Doctor waved his fists around. I thought it was dismissive and clumsily turned a very real topic into some kind of hero worship posing that Moffat indulged in too many times as it was with the Doctor. 

I'm sure you could have told me that it was telling how I reacted to them, etc. but my main reaction to them was that I just didn't think they were very good.

I thought this episode was, while flawed, still an improvement on these types of writing choices (mainly because they got the Doctor out of the way of the narrative), but if you read that as me being uncomfortable or that I lost my mind, so be it. If that wasn't what you meant, then I misread your post, as I genuinely don't know if you just quoted me to talk about random other people or if you decided I was saying these various things that I never said.

[UNOSEZ]

1 hour ago, Kite said:

Maybe for you, you haven't thought of the show in general as telling us a particular view of people, because most of the time, it's aligned with your own.

And then an episode comes along that makes some people temporarily a bit uncomfortable (as opposed to all the episodes you didn't have a personal problem that had a constant wearing impact on others) and those people start losing their goddamn minds about the "heavy-handedness" that made them feel temporarily a bit uncomfortable. It's really telling how people react.

 

13 minutes ago, owenthurman said:

Too on-the-nose," "heavyhandedly didactic," and "anvilicious" always remind me of the forms of bogus literary criticism

Thanks to both of  you on so many boards on so many of the shows I watch to see so many posts about "anvils" and "subtlety" and being "too woke" which usually read to me like... " I don't want to talk or think about this stuff.. Just get back to the easy stuff" its been saddening  and infuriating having issues I'm interested in boiled down to being PC/SJW... Or pushing some agenda.. I'm just happy folks are out there who get why some of these things are so important and are willing to push back when they are minimized

[Pete Martell]

2 hours ago, UNOSEZ said:

I'm just happy folks are out there who get why some of these things are so important and are willing to push back when they are minimized

The problem is when any criticisms about the episode are minimized under blanket dismissal. There's a big difference between saying "PC" and "agenda" and saying that someone agrees with the subject matter but doesn't think the writing was all that great. The top post you quoted and liked quoted me and I actually did praise a number of elements in the episode. Just because I also had some more critical thoughts of it doesn't mean that I don't want to talk about racism or that I don't think Doctor Who should not talk about racism.

[UNOSEZ]

21 minutes ago, Pete Martell said:

The problem is when any criticisms about the episode are minimized under blanket dismissal. There's a big difference between saying "PC" and "agenda" and saying that someone agrees with the subject matter but doesn't think the writing was all that great. The top post you quoted and liked quoted me and I actually did praise a number of elements in the episode. Just because I also had some more critical thoughts of it doesn't mean that I don't want to talk about racism or that I don't think Doctor Who should not talk about racism.

Oh yeah I saw ur post and I agreed that maybe the person I was quoting was speaking more in general than specifically about ur post.. But after reading the same sentiment over and over and generally not as thought out as ur post was you get frustrated.. That may be why

[phalange]

I like how it started with the companions being excited to explore history but very quickly showed the realities of what historical time travel would mean for POC as soon as Ryan picked up the white woman's glove. And I thought it was realistic that Ryan had heard of Rosa Parks and knew she had something to do with a bus, but not exactly what. Yaz and Ryan's conversation while hiding behind the dumpster was a great scene. It really highlighted how far things have come but how much further we have to go. I teared up when Yaz said, "In 53 years they'll have a black president. Who knows where they'll be 50 years after that?" And the Doctor wasn't taking the cop's shit at all. "I don't recognize anyone by that description."

I felt for Graham at the end, when he realized he'd have to be one of the white people who needed a seat on the bus when Rosa Parks was one of Grace's heroes, and for the Doctor who is used to doing something to help people having to do nothing. Shed tears at the scene of Rosa's arrest with "Rise Up" being played and then the ending with them visiting the asteroid named for her. 

There weren't as many comedic moments in this one, understandably, but I loved all of them. Ryan's comment to the waitress: "Good, because I don't eat them," Graham wondering if they're still going to get something to eat, and the Doctor insinuating that she's Banksy. 

[dbklmt]

On ‎10‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 12:07 PM, Occasional Hope said:

Well, we don’t know where the villain with the Spike chip went.  I bet we see him again some time.

I'm sure we will.  It took me awhile to realize that it was Joshua Bowman who played Daniel Grayson on Revenge who played the villain with the Spike chip. 

[tennisgurl]

I was a bit worried about this one, as I was worried that we would get a "The Doctor starts the Civil Rights movement" episode, but I thought it was a strong episode. Very glad that, while the Doctor and company facilitated the big moment and circumvented the bad guy, Rosa still got the big moment, with no help or prompting from anyone. And I thought the woman who played Rosa was excellent. It did definitely give me a Timeless vibe (stop some future asshole from messing with history and hang with a historical figure), but its not like this is new to Who, and I think it was handled well.  Doctor Who has certainly had plenty of episodes that had messages and dealt with historical injustice and social issues, this isnt exactly new ground for the franchise, so if people are going on about how this "isnt like Doctor Who" or is "too preachy", they need to remember what show they're actually talking about. And, its a great real life story with a great message, so why not tell it? 

I felt really bad for the whole companion crew having to deal with all of this on their first trip to the past, hopefully they can go somewhere more fun next time! Of course, I was most afraid for Ryan, but I felt really crappy for Graham having to be one of the white people on the bus, especially knowing how much Rosa meant to his wife. It was nice to see them bonding a bit more, even if they still arent on fist bump level yet. But, yeah, being a black man in the deep south in the 1950s is basically a horror movie, every scene with Ryan was super tense. I also really liked the talk between Ryan and Yaz about how things still have a long way to go, but they have gotten better, and will continue to, even with creeps like the bus driver and the bad guy try to pull things back. 

So another bad guy who is just made to disappear? Looks like a rouges gallery is being formed! 

Not a whole lot of jokes this week, but I loved the Doctor messing with Graham and saying that she was Banksy. Or was she just saying it...

[bybrandy]

This episode was heavy handed, and the accents were TERRIBLE.   That said?  I kind of really liked it anyway.  I really like this group of companions.  I like the doctor.  I don't mind the evil leaper.  

[marceline]

On 10/21/2018 at 9:30 PM, WatchrTina said:

I'm not gonna lie. -- I didn't enjoy this one because I was too anxious the whole time.  I knew that, in the end, Team Doctor would win and history would be preserved (and Rosa would be arrested) but I could not help but feel genuinely worried about Ryan the whole time.  I guess that means it was good . . . it got to me.  But it also meant I enjoyed it less.

Yeah, I'm kind of sorry I watched this. I couldn't stand Ryan running all over Montgomery doing a million different things that could have gotten him lynched. It almost made me angry to see how none of them really seemed to grasp the amount of danger they were in. I come to Doctor Who for escapism and this gave me the exact opposite. I know the show meant well but this didn't work for me. 

[Aussie Grrrl]

10 minutes ago, marceline said:

Yeah, I'm kind of sorry I watched this. I couldn't stand Ryan running all over Montgomery doing a million different things that could have gotten him lynched. It almost made me angry to see how none of them really seemed to grasp the amount of danger they were in. I come to Doctor Who for escapism and this gave me the exact opposite. I know the show meant well but this didn't work for me. 

I found it boring. Knowing full well they could just jump in the Tardis and travel back to yesterday if anything happened

[ae2]

This was a great episode of Peabody's Improbable History.

[cardigirl]

A totally shallow observation here. I was upset, at first, when the new Doctor was revealed to be a woman, because then I wouldn't have a yummy British man to watch having adventures in all of space and time. I frankly never wanted to BE the Doctor, I just wanted to travel with him. But I am finding that Graham is giving me all I need in that category, thank you very much. Bradley Walsh is wonderful to watch, I enjoy every scene he is in. (I am a woman of a certain age, ahem.) 

Serious observation:  I'm enjoying this cast very much.  This particular episode, though, seemed, well, like a VERY IMPORTANT EPISODE, although it was well done. I wish the motivation of the BAD GUY was made more clear other than racists exist throughout all of space and time. That seemed like a missed opportunity there.  Also, he was incarcerated for some event, but we didn't get the specifics. Maybe we weren't meant to.  It just seemed very nebulous to me.  And, as others have said, I too, was a bit surprised that the Doctor wasn't upset with Ryan for using the weapon on the bad guy.  Maybe that will be addressed in a later episode. 

[rab01]

3 hours ago, Aussie Grrrl said:

I found it boring. Knowing full well they could just jump in the Tardis and travel back to yesterday if anything happened

That's not how Doctor Who works.  Wherever he goes it becomes very difficult for him to return to that exact time and place.