S04.E09 Episode 9

[Gem 10]

i Usually watch episodes 2 or 3 times.  Not this time.  Ben looked scary eating those crackers and cheese on the couch.  Why would an actress leave before the end?  Many things were a first in this series.

[Lemons]

That was annoying to me.  How do we know which one was the real one?  The second one made no sense at all.   Why would he be so enraged because she didn’t open the door quickly?  After six weeks, that type of personality would have show itself already. It was just such an extreme personality change from Alison’s view of him in all the other episodes.  Way too extreme.  Sucked.  

[scrb]

They had to kill her off since she was quitt8ng the show.

But when they wrote and produced this episode, did they know there was going to be another season?

They could easily have made this the penultimate episode of the series, if they weren’t sure that Showt8me was going to renew.

Then maybe they didn’t have to have such an abrupt ending for one of the lead characters.  Sure from the beginning, they hinted at an ominous end, with the guys driving somewhere to look for her.

So maybe the entire season was written with the plan to kill her off, whether or not the series was renewed.

I don’t buy that her being tormented made her vulnerable to having an affair with Noah.  She also said she was afraid Cole would cheat so she did it first?

At the beginning of the season, she was supposedly in a good place, financially, good with her work and having custody of Joanie.  But still she was punishing herself over her son?  And that is how Ben insinuated himself into her life, that she deserved another asshole who would ultimately kill her?

That is a pretty offensive proposition, especially in a show with a female show runner.

The monologue while she’s descending deeper seems to suggest that she was just going to die, that she was conscious and knew what was happening but that she wouldn’t fight it.  Again because she thought it was somehow fitting that she died?  So it was both a murder and a suicide?

Of course in reality, if she was conscious, the instinct would be to fight to swim up to the surface, at least try.  I believe it’s difficult to drown oneself.  Only reason the detective thought it was suicide was that she had injuries which suggested she was thrashed against the rocks, which prevented her from getting out of the water.

[JennyMominFL]

17 minutes ago, Lemons said:

That was annoying to me.  How do we know which one was the real one?  The second one made no sense at all.   Why would he be so enraged because she didn’t open the door quickly?  After six weeks, that type of personality would have show itself already. It was just such an extreme personality change from Alison’s view of him in all the other episodes.  Way too extreme.  Sucked.  

He wasnt drinking before. Obviously he had restarted. And PTSD is tricky like that.

[Guest]

Well, it looked like all those predictions about the Krishna statue came true.

I mock this show regularly because I think it flat out sucks, but the actors tonight really shined. And definitely some Mulholland Drive-ing going on with the first part of the episode. 

If Showtime were wise, next week's episode would be the series finale. There is simply no need to perpetuate this show. There is no story left to tell. As for whatever it is they devise, I'm done after this season ends. 

[LilaFowler]

Since the showrunner admitted that Allison hallucinates people, places and things in her POVs, we may never know what really happened that night. Ben is a liar and we can't know for sure if his version of events really happened the way that he said they did.

All we really know for sure is that Allison and Ben saw each other that night and at some point later, Allison ended up dead. She could have hallucinated both of her POVs and really committed suicide. I mean, with this show, who the hell knows?

[Razzberry]

But for a leaky faucet Alison would still be alive.

[GeminiDancer]

Oh damn... that was intense. I know that we all have some idea of how interactions play out in our head only for the reality to be very different. So clear she was doing that. She was hoping that Ben was still going to be this wounded bird that she would save this time. The contrast between "dreamy" Ben and "real" Ben was chilling. He did a phenomenal job with it.

At least we know for certain that Luisa didn't do it. I don't know why people think that she would have killed Alison.

[Lemons]

36 minutes ago, JennyMominFL said:

He wasnt drinking before. Obviously he had restarted. And PTSD is tricky like that.

What about his story about killing the boy because he wanted to go home as opposed to it being accidental?  The accidental killing would cause PTSD.  The killing on the person wouldn’t.  So the story of the accidental killing made a lot more sense.  

[JennyMominFL]

8 minutes ago, Lemons said:

What about his story about killing the boy because he wanted to go home as opposed to it being accidental?  The accidental killing would cause PTSD.  The killing on the person wouldn’t.  So the story of the accidental killing made a lot more sense.  

War is horrible. People under stress break and do things they would not otherwise do. Sometimes they deeply regret them.  Sometimes they experience PTSD For it. I was in the Marines, its not unheard of.

Edited August 13, 2018 by JennyMominFL

[AngelaHunter]

I have to think the actors must really enjoy this format - getting to play two such different characters in each episode, and they do it really well. This episode showed two such totally different versions it was like two different shows, really. In both versions, the acting was amazing, as it always is from everyone.

No way to know what really happened, but the second version is what I thought happened last week, that she was thrown in the water alive and that accounted for the water in her lungs. I can't see her leaving her child and killing herself, though of course it does happen all the time, but it didn't seem like Alison was heading towards suicide.

Two things drive me nuts: Someone is pounding on Alison's door. She doesn't even have a peephole, but she always just opens it with no clue who is on the other side. Another thing is - the goddam MUSIC! Stop the wailing, loud, instrusive, "atmospheric" blaring, freaking music when people are speaking. It drowns out the dialogue. Just stop it!

3 minutes ago, JennyMominFL said:

War is horrible. People under stress break and do things they would not otherwise do. Sometimes they deeply regret them.  So,etimes they experience PTSD.

Yes, PTSD (called "shell shock" before) eventually led to my father's death. It's a terrible thing.

[Toodleoo]

Whatever the writers' reasons for the two viewpoints, the first set up the second so well that as soon as that pounding on the door happened halfway through I was rooted in place and couldn't move for the rest of the episode. Don't think I've seen buildup of tension like that since the Sopranos finale.

 

Head wounds bleed a lot. If the second half really happened, Ben did a good job cleaning up. I hope someone clues in on the shredded fingers as mentioned by a poster above...the previews suggest

Spoiler

a beach service which would point toward a cremation, unless it's a memorial service with a later burial.

Edited August 13, 2018 by Toodleoo

[TexasGal]

So we will never get any information on Alison’s CA trip?  She slept on Helen’s couch and then immediately left?  Like the video of her being obnoxious on the plane wouldn’t have gone viral. \nitpicking

The second half was very intense.  I don’t think I’d have even let him in looking like a horror movie serial killer as he did.

[A-Lo]

I was only into this show for Ruth Wilson.  Now, there's nothing left I'm interested in.

[eyewatchtv]

When Allison held the door open and told Ben to leave, I was telling the tv "run Allison, get out now".  He was so scary and when she told him that she'd tell his wife if he didn't leave, I knew she was doomed.  

[EtheltoTillie]

16 minutes ago, TexasGal said:

So we will never get any information on Alison’s CA trip?  She slept on Helen’s couch and then immediately left?  Like the video of her being obnoxious on the plane wouldn’t have gone viral. \nitpicking

 

Not nitpicking.  She was arrested!  She was out on bail on presumably federal charges (since it was an air incident).  Too easy for her to leave the jurisdiction. 

[CleoCaesar]

How fitting that Alison the eternal victim dies as a literal victim (of a homicide).

I'm not sorry to see her go. Her constant "everyone is against me" way of going through life got tiresome very quickly. And all the things she did have an active role in were just vile: cheating on Cole, playing a part in breaking up Noah and Helen's marriage, cheating on Noah, lying to Noah about Joanie's paternity, abandoning Joanie for six months, fighting Cole and Luisa for custody, the list goes on.

Alison was a horrid, miserable person. I feel bad for Cole, Joanie and even Athena. But I'm glad we'll never have to see her "woe is me" POVs anymore.

[Toodleoo]

Now that I think about it (and just rewatched the morgue scene), the faucet cuts on her fingers could easily be mistaken by the detective for marine life munching on her as she had deteriorated quite a bit. Ah well.

 

OHHHH snap!! When Cole and Noah confronted Ben in his office in last week's episode, Ben was wearing his wedding ring. And said (I'd forgotten) that it took three hours to break up with her. If I had the time I'd compare his office dialogue with both halves of this episode.

Edited August 13, 2018 by Toodleoo
more stuff

[chocolatine]

19 hours ago, yourmomiseasy said:

Have we ever heard Alison be so open about Gabriel's death before and how she blames herself?  It was so heart breaking.  

She told Noah in S1, but back then she said that Gabriel seemed fine and gave her a hug, so she let him go to sleep instead of taking him to the hospital, even though, as a nurse, she should have known better. But now she told Ben that Gabriel was vomiting and had diarrhea, and it seems implausible to me that she didn't take him to the ER just because she was mad at Cole. I'm neither a parent nor a healthcare professional, but even I know that vomiting and diarrhea can be really dangerous for a child, and you don't risk a child's life for a petty fight.

This episode didn't work for me. Seeing as both versions can't be true, I feel none the wiser about what happened to Alison. If the second version is true, it feels very predictable and trite. And the first version didn't work for me either, how easily Alison forgave Ben, despite so many warning signs. If a man told me he once tied his wife to a bed face down so he wouldn't have to look at her face, I'd try to get away from him immediately. The first version was just more of same old pushover Alison, not turning over a new leaf at all.

[GeminiDancer]

The first one was something that Alison Imagined. The second was what really happened.

[Lemons]

24 minutes ago, GussieK said:

Not nitpicking.  She was arrested!  She was out on bail on presumably federal charges (since it was an air incident).  Too easy for her to leave the jurisdiction. 

That’s right!  Another man who couldn’t keep her hands off her.  

[Milburn Stone]

9 hours ago, Penman61 said:

When did the part 1 (fantasy version) take place, actually?  In Alison's head as she's dying?

It might be something like that--because it doesn't make sense that Alison fantasized it before reality-Ben showed up.

The reason it doesn't make sense is that in Part 1, the fantasy, Alison hears the story of how Ben killed the boy who had the unloaded grenade gun. A somewhat different version than in Part 2, but nevertheless basically that story. That's way too specific and unusual a story for her to have made up in a fantasy, when it turns out that something much like it actually did happen--unless she already knew that it happened, because reality-Ben had told her. She then created a fantasy around it (in her half-dead or all-dead state) that put it into a context she greatly preferred.

That's the only way I can make sense of it.

Edited August 13, 2018 by Milburn Stone

[Pallas]

31 minutes ago, LilaFowler said:

All we really know for sure is that Allison and Ben saw each other that night and at some point later, Allison ended up dead. She could have hallucinated both of her POVs and really committed suicide.

Watching again, I think Alison did commit suicide. The first perspective isn't what I thought -- a fantasy before Ben arrives -- since in it, he tells the story of the kid with no grenade on his RPG: a story it seems she doesn't know until she hears it from Ben that night. Or both versions of that night may be her fantasies: she could have given Ben the backstory of the husband who assaulted her at work, as heard from the man's wife.  

For now, I think Alison told Ben to leave, and he did. Or, the first rendition was close to the truth. In either case she began to clean up, cut herself on the faucet -- not fixed with just a touch -- and from there she spiraled down. As she told Ben in the first rendition, she can't do this again. Whether Ben would go on to leave his wife or lie to his wife, Alison believes that in this lifetime she will always be in pain, never can be happy, and doesn't deserve to be loved. I think she was already gone when Ben woke up on her deck, or even by the time he arrived at her house. We will learn more from the post mortem results. 

[taragel]

Ben suddenly being revealed as a murderer just feels very...convenient in a way. IDK. 

I hope this doesn't set up a final season where Cole and Noah are all about figuring out the truth of Alison's death, but on the other hand I don't know what S5 is about if NOT that. 

[Bitsy]

I think #1 was the truth and #2 was the fantasy death Allison imagined for herself in the leadup to her suicide, which was not shown.

In #2, Fantasy Allison forcefully stands up for herself - something Real Allison never does - and doesn't choose to die.  Dying isn't her fault.  She's just the innocent victim of one of those evil men who have been fucking with her all her life.  That's exactly how Allison would want to see it.

But version #1 is where we see the characters being true to themselves.  Ben isn't an evil psychopath, he's just a slimeball who is cheating on his wife.  And Allison, as she always does, accepts his obvious lies and, as she always does, goes to bed with him.  And then she kills herself because Allison hates herself and with that encounter she proved to herself yet again that she's never going to break her pattern.

Edited August 13, 2018 by Bitsy

[lampwick]

Good call Bitsy.  The second version was strange in that she seemed to know that she shouldn’t be provoking him because of his rage state, but then all of a sudden would say provocative ultimatums that sealed her doom...  it was pretty strange for someone who didn’t want to get murdered - common sense and all...

Edited August 13, 2018 by lampwick

[AngelaHunter]

1 hour ago, Toodleoo said:

Whatever the writers' reasons for the two viewpoints, the first set up the second so well that as soon as that pounding on the door happened halfway through I was rooted in place and couldn't move for the rest of the episode.

Same. Riveted. I may have even said aloud, "Stop mentioning his wife, Alison! Humour him!" Knowing something bad was going to happen but not when or how had me on the edge of my seat, something I've also not experienced since the Sopranos, although for me it was that last scene with Tony and Ralphie.

[Bitsy]

The more I think it about it, the more I'm sure.  (Although for the first time in a long time, I actually want to rewatch an episode.)  The way Allison directly confronted him about his wife, firmly asked him to leave, refused to be taken in by his ploy for sympathy, refused to take the blame - NONE of that is what Allison would ever do.  That's the person she wants to be - and the person she hates herself for not being.

The fact that Ben is way too much of a suspense-movie psychopath in #2 is just reinforcement for me.

I've been so frustrated with this show for such a long time, and I was initially pretty sour on this episode.  But now I think it's rather brilliant.  It's a pay-off for the whole point-of-view premise of this show.  We know Allison.  We know how she behaves, and we know how she sees herself.  And that's how we know that a potential murder scenario is not true.  She killed herself.  That's the only true ending her story could have.

Edited August 13, 2018 by Bitsy

[hoodooznoodooz]

Ben said he hadn’t touched his wife since tying her onto the bed, but they have a one-year-old son? And Allison doesn’t question him about that?

Edited August 13, 2018 by hoodooznoodooz

[Jax7917]

Yea I think if she would be on more episodes , they can do a scenario where the actual events that happened were in part 1 , and part 2 was her depression / anxiety settling in . After they had sex, she went to do the dishes and she had time to think about what just happened and how she played the victim again and fell for his shit and her depression led to suicide ... but being that she's done with the show , I'm sure part 2 is the most likely scenario .

I love thrillers , horror movies , etc. and am not scared by a majority of them , but that episode creeped me out . Part 2 was obviously worse but the whole episode was just a build up . I actually thought part 2 would be Bens point of view . 

[hoodooznoodooz]

Ben told Allison that he’s the third of four kids, then says, “Four boys and a girl.”

Why doesn’t any of the math makes sense?

[Jax7917]

Even though in part 2 Allison didn't commit suicide , I think she stopped caring about trying to stay alive in that moment because Ben had evil in his eyes and she was instigating it . In no way was the murder her fault , but she was saying some pretty dumb things when she should have been doing and saying anything to escape the situation .. so I think while she didn't want to die , she didn't care enough about her life to live in that moment . 

[bobbyjoe]

Wow, I was totally wrong about Ben being too obvious a choice to be her killer.  

I think there were a number of clues in the first segment that it was “too good to be true” and an idealized dream version; the biggest to me is the huge Gabriel coincidence— Ben says his kids are named Gabriel and Bodhi, which was where I started thinking wait a minute... Gabriel?!  Really?  Plus, Bodhi is a name associated with Eastern religion (shades of the Krishna statue?) and is often translated as “Awakening.”  If you’ve ever taken a nineteenth century American novels class, you’ve likely read Kate Chopin’s “The Awakening,” whose central image is, you guessed it, a woman drowning (though curiously— over a one hundred year-old spoiler alert— in the novel she drowns herself).

Moreso, though, there’s just way too much wish fulfillment in the first segment:  Ben shows up with wine and flowers, immediately confesses so Alison doesn’t have to ask, fixes her sink, makes her dinner, feels really bad about lots of things, and then makes passionate mutually desired love to her.  It’s so much the dream version.

I think this is what Alison might be thinking as she dies: that this is her way of re-writing her story, of taking control.  But I do think the grim sad second version, if not maybe the exact truth, is much closer to what really happened and Alison’s actual fate.

 

ETA:  I’m betting Ben’s a dead man next season, with maybe Cole and Noah further bonding over his murder.

Edited August 13, 2018 by bobbyjoe

[bilgistic]

I saw this on another site so I can't take credit for it: the second scenario is the true story because the red bandage (that she puts on her right middle finger after fighting the faucet) is on Alison's finger at the morgue. She doesn't hurt her finger in the first scenario.

We know Alison's not coming back. Sarah Treem said in an interview that she is dead. It was discussed at length in last week's thread.

[LoveLeigh]

1 hour ago, Pallas said:

Watching again, I think Alison did commit suicide.

You may be on to something. I say this because the detective, who was seasoned and had years of experience, told Cole that Alison drowned herself. He explained it in detail. He said he had seen so many cases like this one. He said her injuries were consistent with a drowning. He said she moved her money into an account for Joanie. He said Ben had an alibi. Interesting theory, PALLAS. 

Edited August 13, 2018 by DakotaLavender

[Gemini Gipsy]

I dont post here often but tonight was a MUST. I'm usually a lurker. ;) 

I am so frustrated, confused and wondering if this is pure genius or pure bullshit. 

 

Please help me friends!!!

Typically the episodes are told from 2 different POV's. Does that mean one is fantasy one is real,  does it mean she has more mental health problems than we previously thought?

Why does she say she found her son dead in scenario 1 and day he died in her arms in scenario 2? Makes me think 2 was her fantasy like she gets off on being the victim and because in that instance it wasnt her fault as much as 1 "sleep it off, kid! See you in the morning. Right now daddy and his flirting ar more important". Then he was "gone and grey"...   

 

The dream she had? That was so incredibly telling. He was telling her LET IT GO. Surely she knew this and it would lead to healing...so what happened?,

 

And she is trying to push Ben away in her head or maybe just life itself in general way?

 

I find this hard to believe based on the love she had (has?) for her daughter and obviously Cole. Just as he did for her.

And really? Keystone cops hard at work here it seems? Ugh.

My first suspect would be Louisa.  And several other people and theories would have been prominent, long before suicide.  She probably caught on that Viles devein was obviously NOT her.

How did she get home from LA? She was clear to fly after that mess? Did that guy even really assault her or is she always the victim? 

She had a sleepover at Helen's then boom......gone?? Thats weird.

Maybe it's an elaborate plan? I will be honest I am NOT an Alison fan, but after Coles Hippy Stint in Cali I was looking forward to the aftermath.....

 

 

I have so many damn questions. Sloppy writing or genius?? That's the big one if anyone knows.

 

You guys are all so good at sleuthing and speculating I look forward to reading your comments now that I have ranted the first things that came to mind after watching. I'm sure I'll have more!

9 minutes ago, bilgistic said:

I saw this on another site so I can't take credit for it: the second scenario is the true story because the red bandage (that she puts on her right middle finger after fighting the faucet) is on Alison's finger at the morgue. She doesn't hurt her finger in the first scenario.

We know Alison's not coming back. Sarah Treem said in an interview that she is dead. It was discussed at length in last week's thread.

Welp...thanks for sharing.  My confusion is at least cut in half. Lol. That was fast. You guys are good! 

 

Its kind of a shame. I feel she was an intricate part of the show. and far more interesting this year than in previous ones. 

 

I feel like they could have done better so I hope to see some reasoning.

 

I assume the actress will be in upcoming scenes so she technically finished the season. However its seeing sudden. Any reason for this? 

 

Is the show even renewed and if so how long?

[Pallas]

1 hour ago, hoodooznoodooz said:

Ben said he hadn’t touched his wife since tying her onto the bed, but they have a one-year-old son? And Allison doesn’t question him about that?

Ben said he was still drinking then; he's been sober for less than a year. 

[scrb]

4 hours ago, LilaFowler said:

Since the showrunner admitted that Allison hallucinates people, places and things in her POVs, we may never know what really happened that night. Ben is a liar and we can't know for sure if his version of events really happened the way that he said they did.

All we really know for sure is that Allison and Ben saw each other that night and at some point later, Allison ended up dead. She could have hallucinated both of her POVs and really committed suicide. I mean, with this show, who the hell knows?

If that is the tack they take for next season, to really learn what happened, then I'm going to bail.

So if this episode with two different versions of Alison and Ben is meant to set up a season-long mystery before they reveal the truth in the series finale, it's  ridiculously cynical move.

It's one thing to write around an actress leaving the show but they use it as an opportunity to set up another season?

[Bitsy]

54 minutes ago, bilgistic said:

I saw this on another site so I can't take credit for it: the second scenario is the true story because the red bandage (that she puts on her right middle finger after fighting the faucet) is on Alison's finger at the morgue. She doesn't hurt her finger in the first scenario.

Nope.  At the end of version #1, Allison goes back to the sink and cuts her finger.  Version #2 doesn't start until she answers the door and Ben is standing there in the rain.  The way that they interrupted the action to put up the "Part 2: Allison" sign was very abrupt and clearly intended for a specific reason.  They wanted us to know that version #2 started RIGHT THERE.

I rewatched version #1.  Before they make love, Allison makes Ben promise not to mess with her heart and warns him that she wouldn't be able to take the pain.  As they are basking in the afterglow, Allison goes inside and plugs the charger cord into her phone on the coffee table.  Previously in version #1, Ben had unplugged her charger cord and plugged into his own phone.

It's not shown, but I think it's pretty obvious.  It was at that moment that Allison decided to take a glance at Ben's phone to look at those angry text messages he said he'd been getting all afternoon from the wife he claimed to have broken up with.  And of course, what Allison saw on his phone proved that he was lying.  That gave Allison the excuse she needed to kill herself and blame it on him.

The episode was done in a loop, tied together by Allison standing at the faucet.  When we see Allison at the very beginning, she's not waiting for Ben to come over.  She's actually standing there freaking out because she's so upset about what she saw on Ben's phone.  It's at that moment that she fantasizes/hallucinates the version where instead of being a guy who tricked her into falling for him, he's just a straight-up villain who murders her.

Edited August 13, 2018 by Bitsy

[Lemons]

5 hours ago, Giant Misfit said:

Well, it looked like all those predictions about the Krishna statue came true.

I mock this show regularly because I think it flat out sucks, but the actors tonight really shined. And definitely some Mulholland Drive-ing going on with the first part of the episode. 

If Showtime were wise, next week's episode would be the series finale. There is simply no need to perpetuate this show. There is no story left to tell. As for whatever it is they devise, I'm done after this season ends. 

What do you mean about mulholland drive?  What is that?

1 hour ago, Jaclyn88 said:

Yea I think if she would be on more episodes , they can do a scenario where the actual events that happened were in part 1 , and part 2 was her depression / anxiety settling in . After they had sex, she went to do the dishes and she had time to think about what just happened and how she played the victim again and fell for his shit and her depression led to suicide ... but being that she's done with the show , I'm sure part 2 is the most likely scenario .

I love thrillers , horror movies , etc. and am not scared by a majority of them , but that episode creeped me out . Part 2 was obviously worse but the whole episode was just a build up . I actually thought part 2 would be Bens point of view . 

Plus, weren’t her point of views always way off?

[LoveLeigh]

10 minutes ago, Lemons said:

What do you mean about mulholland drive?  What is that?

 

Mulholland Drive is a very complicated and bizarre David Lynch film with Naomi Watts. It is very hard to understand because the actors play multiple roles and different versions of themselves within almost parallel universes. 

[scrb]

If Ben is just looking to cheat on his wife, would he really pursue Alison this much?

Why not just go to a bar and pick up someone?

Instead, he's trying to make it appear he's serious about her, putting a lot of time and effort in without her giving in.

Yeah she's suppose to be susceptible to these married men, because she's so wounded or whatever.  But if Noah just wanted sex with someone other than his wife, all he had to do was look around at school, or at that pool -- as the show would have it, he's irresistible.

Noah left his wife and family for her.  So the show is kind of redefining her this season when it tries to say that her guilt and self-punishment made her vulnerable and easy prey to these creepy married men.  In the first couple of seasons, she was this siren whose call Noah couldn't resist, for any reason.

In fact they made it about how men were being true to themselves by dumping their wives for younger women.  Not just Noah but Helen's father decided to leave his wife for someone younger.

[weaver]

6 hours ago, A-Lo said:

I was only into this show for Ruth Wilson.  Now, there's nothing left I'm interested in.

I'm pretty much in the same boat.  I like JJ as well, but not enough to wade through next year to see what these writers come up with.  

[LoveLeigh]

54 minutes ago, weaver said:

I'm pretty much in the same boat.  I like JJ as well, but not enough to wade through next year to see what these writers come up with.  

I never was in a show for the actors, I am always drawn in by the plot and story. I will stay with this to the end. I never bail as a way to punish the show... even though I hate how they resolved Ruth Wilson's departure.  

[anonymiss]

I relate to Alison, unfortunately. Was taken in--without my prior knowledge--by a married man. Fell in love with him. Much anguish ensued. Have heard lines like, "This is your fault. You seduced me!" So this whole story has been fascinating and this episode chilling and very true-to-life for me without the fatal ending, but that's because I didn't escalate like Alison had to for the sake of the contract disputes doing her in. 

Alison dying in the water and  the water theme around her reminds me of Noah's characterization of her as this nymph.

Edited August 13, 2018 by anonymiss

[weaver]

43 minutes ago, DakotaLavender said:

I never was in a show for the actors, I am always drawn in by the plot and story. I will stay with this to the end. I never bail as a way to punish the show... even though I hate how they resolved Ruth Wilson's departure.  

I'm in the show for the plot and the story and acting.  I'll stick with a show if I admire the acting even if the story goes south.   In this case the story has become of less and less interest to me as the seasons have progressed.   Last year was pretty bad.   Ruth Wilson's departure puts me over the edge into "not watching" territory.  I'm not punishing anybody by stopping watching; if I have no interest, why would I?   

When you have a perfect union of story and acting, as in the Sopranos, I'll watch over and over.   

Edited August 13, 2018 by weaver

[oatmealshoes]

Still digesting everything and reading your comments... but something struck me: last week - and as shown in tonight's previouslies - Helen tells Alison: "Alison, you have so much time. You could have a second act. You could do whatever you want to do." Perhaps a clue to tonight's episode? 

[Blakeston]

I haven't decided what I think actually happened to Alison. But I will say that I have no trouble believing that Ben, as we've seen him this season, could be a psychopathic killer.

In the episode where she sees him at the conference, he seemed very eager to learn her deepest, most traumatizing secrets. Then he was hellbent on getting her alone with him on a boat, and he practically shoved alcohol down her throat.

And then, when she dove into the water (after discussing her memories of her son drowning, and almost drowning herself), and she didn't rise to the surface, what did he do? He sat there on the boat and just watched her - sort of like how a kid might watch an ant they were killing with a magnifying glass. He didn't dive in until after she swam to the surface.

Hell, even in the first half of this episode, he seemed extraordinarily manipulative. He never actually provided any evidence that he'd left his wife. It looked like he only told Alison he was married because it was clear that she'd already figured it out, and he wanted points for honesty. And immediately after he described what it was like to kill an unarmed boy, he nonchalantly asked where she kept her plates.

Ben was a creepy one.

[chick binewski]

6 hours ago, Bitsy said:

The more I think it about it, the more I'm sure.  (Although for the first time in a long time, I actually want to rewatch an episode.)  The way Allison directly confronted him about his wife, firmly asked him to leave, refused to be taken in by his ploy for sympathy, refused to take the blame - NONE of that is what Allison would ever do.  That's the person she wants to be - and the person she hates herself for not being.

The fact that Ben is way too much of a suspense-movie psychopath in #2 is just reinforcement for me.

I've been so frustrated with this show for such a long time, and I was initially pretty sour on this episode.  But now I think it's rather brilliant.  It's a pay-off for the whole point-of-view premise of this show.  We know Allison.  We know how she behaves, and we know how she sees herself.  And that's how we know that a potential murder scenario is not true.  She killed herself.  That's the only true ending her story could have.

 

6 hours ago, Jaclyn88 said:

Even though in part 2 Allison didn't commit suicide , I think she stopped caring about trying to stay alive in that moment because Ben had evil in his eyes and she was instigating it . In no way was the murder her fault , but she was saying some pretty dumb things when she should have been doing and saying anything to escape the situation .. so I think while she didn't want to die , she didn't care enough about her life to live in that moment . 

I think there are two good points here, but ultimately I do think Alison was murdered after imagining what she thought a stronger version of herself looked like (which didn't turn out to have much resolve) and giving herself a romantic ending by making love with Ben outside. But Alison had a lot of self-destructive tendencies and those don't go away after one convo with Helen. Even if Ben started out less menacing in reality, there were a number of ways a person with training would have attenpted to separate or physically distance themselves in that situation. And none of them would have included placing a knife in front of the emotionally disturbed man, or sitting with him on the couch, or confronting him about his marriage after he was already unhinged. 

Idk. Was this a version of suicide by cop?

[casey65]

19 minutes ago, chick binewski said:

Idk. Was this a version of suicide by cop?

I think that’s highly likely.  We saw him specifically give her an out - say it was all her fault and he will leave.  Anyone wanting to save their own life in that terrifying situation would say anything... and she deliberately chose not to, and to continue provoking him.  She wrote her own story, or at least, her own ending.