The Duggars and Their World: Fashion, Food, Finance, Schoolin’ and Child Rearin'

[Platypus]

19 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

Homeschoolers Anonymous has a series about a Gothard IBLP document on why God allows child molestation. Short version, in essence: Victims can use the event as an impetus to shape up, in numerous ways. My conclusion: The damned Bateses should never ever ever ever ever be televised for potential lionization or rationalization by audiences either.

This is in regard to the molestation of a four-year-old boy. Note the use of quotation marks around a word in this passage:  In our fallen world with all its evil men and women, there will be attacks by a stronger upon a weaker. When this happens, the law of God is very clear that the weaker must cry out for help or he will be equally guilty. This principle is found in Deuteronomy 21:23, 24. When a ‘victim’ does not cry out or immediately tell his authority he will carry around a sense of guilt which Satan will then use for condemnation and further defeat. It would therefore be important for your son to confess his failure to do this and ask God to forgive him.

https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2016/08/09/gothard-explains-why-god-allows-child-molestation-part-i/

https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2016/08/10/worksheet-claims-that-god-allows-sexual-abuse-part-ii/

https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2016/08/11/worksheet-claims-that-god-allows-sexual-abuse-part-iii/

https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2016/08/12/worksheet-claims-that-god-allows-sexual-abuse-part-iv/

That is so sickening to read.   i can't even formulate my thoughts into complete sentences.  Have none of these 'Christians' read Jesus' actual real words?  'love one another, protect and care for the most vulnerable, and by the way all you fakers who talk the talk but don't walk the walk, No Heaven for You!'   That is some stunning double-think to say you love Christ, that you're 'bible-believing' and yet still buy into that nauseating victim blaming propaganda above.  About a four year old!   God created mama bear instincts, and the mama bear in me wants five minutes alone in a room with Gothard.  

[Churchhoney]

1 hour ago, Platypus said:

 God created mama bear instincts, and the mama bear in me wants five minutes alone in a room with Gothard.  

Me, too.

I get the feeling that Gothard must be someone who has a fairly good brain in the I-can-make-up-tricky-little-"logical"-lawyer-arguments kind of way, absolutely no empathy and a huge ego. Which I guess would make him a good candidate for the "successful sociopathic criminal" category?

But he's just one individual, and obviously individuals come in all flavors. What baffles me more is the clearly numerous adults who have bought into, aided and abetted this stuff. And the fact that many many of them, such as the Duggars, were not born and brought up into it and thus brainwashed from birth but joined on their own, of their own free will, and dragged their families into it with them.

And the fact that quite a few educated and apparently intelligent people have been long-time Gothard apparatchiks who clearly know exactly what he preached and yet have devoted their lives to -- and made careers of, in some cases -- spreading this horrendous "thinking" around the world. The Paines, for example, a family headed by a medical doctor, spreading Gotharditis around Asia. And plenty of others involved in the U.S. operations, the overseas operations, the sometimes successful attempts to spread it into state government activities such as a juvenile justice. I can see Gothard himself spreading it -- it's his ego that's involved. But what in the hell is wrong with all these other people?

And when I think of all the kids they've brainwashed....And they're well and truly brainwashed, too. The Duggar kids have certainly heard every bit of this crap. Heck, many of the older ones have surely even "taught" it to others, in Journey to the Heart and the other youth programs. Yet, apparently, not one has wakened one day nauseated because the horror of it finally came to them in a dream or something.

Edited August 16, 2016 by Churchhoney

[kokapetl]

22 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

Homeschoolers Anonymous has a series about a Gothard IBLP document on why God allows child molestation. Short version, in essence: Victims can use the event as an impetus to shape up, in numerous ways. My conclusion: The damned Bateses should never ever ever ever ever be televised for potential lionization or rationalization by audiences either.

This is in regard to the molestation of a four-year-old boy. Note the use of quotation marks around a word in this passage:  In our fallen world with all its evil men and women, there will be attacks by a stronger upon a weaker. When this happens, the law of God is very clear that the weaker must cry out for help or he will be equally guilty. This principle is found in Deuteronomy 21:23, 24. When a ‘victim’ does not cry out or immediately tell his authority he will carry around a sense of guilt which Satan will then use for condemnation and further defeat. It would therefore be important for your son to confess his failure to do this and ask God to forgive him.

https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2016/08/09/gothard-explains-why-god-allows-child-molestation-part-i/

https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2016/08/10/worksheet-claims-that-god-allows-sexual-abuse-part-ii/

https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2016/08/11/worksheet-claims-that-god-allows-sexual-abuse-part-iii/

https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2016/08/12/worksheet-claims-that-god-allows-sexual-abuse-part-iv/

This worksheet is so bizarre. Such a piss poor understanding of pre school age children. And such sloppy bible pointers. With apologetics as bad as that, no wonder the Gothard empire is crumbling. 

[Churchhoney]

43 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

This worksheet is so bizarre. Such a piss poor understanding of pre school age children. And such sloppy bible pointers. With apologetics as bad as that, no wonder the Gothard empire is crumbling. 

I guess whatever the old man's charismatic magic was that got that first generation to buy in just isn't powerful enough to blind people to the stupidity any more.  Silver lining.  He sure had something in the early days that made a lot of people overlook all the nonsense you mention, though. Can't imagine what it was.

[Aja]

I'd have to go to my nerdy happy place and think about it more to come up with a coherent and sensible synopsis, but I'm pretty sure Gothardism relies pretty heavily on the egos of weak, insecure, narcissistic, entitled males. Everything mushrooms from there.

[Celia Rubenstein]

I'm just picturing Michelle in her breathy little baby voice telling this stuff to her daughters after Josh assaulted them.  With a little splash of "remember not to defraud your brother again" thrown in.

It's heartbreaking. 

[kokapetl]

44 minutes ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

I'm just picturing Michelle in her breathy little baby voice telling this stuff to her daughters after Josh assaulted them.  With a little splash of "remember not to defraud your brother again" thrown in.

It's heartbreaking. 

I don't think they used the same material on the parents and the kids. The worksheet seems like a response to a teenager asking "why does God allow bad things to happen?". Selling ATI to adults would require a much different approach. 

[GeeGolly]

45 minutes ago, Celia Rubenstein said:

I'm just picturing Michelle in her breathy little baby voice telling this stuff to her daughters after Josh assaulted them.  With a little splash of "remember not to defraud your brother again" thrown in.

It's heartbreaking. 

I can't even go there. I can't, just can't wrap my head around a mother saying this. Yet it happens like that in so many households where the child isn't believed or is even blamed.

Like Platypus mentioned, where are the mama bear instincts? 

[Celia Rubenstein]

16 minutes ago, Kokapetl said:

I don't think they used the same material on the parents and the kids. The worksheet seems like a response to a teenager asking "why does God allow bad things to happen?". Selling ATI to adults would require a much different approach. 

I doubt ATI's essential philosophy about the religious reasons for and ramifications of sexual abuse would be very different just because they were instructing an adult vs. someone of another age. The principle of victim blaming would be the the same regardless of who they are "educating" because that is just how they view the situation.    

I imagine a workbook aimed at an adult woman who is asking why god let her be raped would feature admonishments about wearing short skirts and accepting a ride home from a man in place of assertions about how kids must be kept busy so they don't get into trouble hanging out with other kids.  But the essential philosophy is the same.  If you are a victim it is because you did something wrong and god let it happen to teach you a lesson.  Period. 

It's like THE worst thing to tell a survivor and I can just picture Michelle asking the girls to write down a list of things they did to bring on what happened to them.  That is unless ATI has a pamphlet written specifically for little girls who got felt up by their brother repeatedly ... then she could just teach Jessa and Jill and the others how it was all their fault straight from the little booklet.  

What I want to see is the little workbook that gets handed out to rapists and molesters who ask why god allowed them to do what they did.  I want to know if they are held accountable the same way their victims are, or does ATI have a couple of pages of excuses for them to rely on.

[queenanne]

13 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

My thoughts with extreme beliefs, including cults, has always been that folks usually have a negative event in life and are searching for hope & comfort. They find something that appeals to them in some way and begin a journey. However I always believed that the extremes were subtle and slow and the believer never was truly aware of them. Obviously many people do become aware and they finds ways to disconnect and leave.

I never thought that pamphlets of the crazy were actually printed out and given as worksheets to learn. Any adult who takes one look at that shit should be grabbing their kids and running.

I also wonder, in the case of Gothard and his patriarchal system, if females were more often the perpetrators what those worksheets would look like.

I'm pegging this as both (a) control; and (b), avoidance of deeper issues.  Pass out enough blame, and then it will seem that horrors are avoidable under either circumstances you can control (which means they won't happen); or circumstances you can't (in which case you have to rely upon the "mysteries of God").  Both are methods of avoiding having to actually think about the deeper issues, and do any work to understand gray areas.  We've already seen tons about what the potential alleged called-to the ministry members of the fundies, in the triumvirate of Derek, Bin, and Jer, think is really deep and thinky.  

[Darknight]

On Monday, August 15, 2016 at 11:40 AM, Churchhoney said:

Homeschoolers Anonymous has a series about a Gothard IBLP document on why God allows child molestation. Short version, in essence: Victims can use the event as an impetus to shape up, in numerous ways. My conclusion: The damned Bateses should never ever ever ever ever be televised for potential lionization or rationalization by audiences either.

This is in regard to the molestation of a four-year-old boy. Note the use of quotation marks around a word in this passage:  In our fallen world with all its evil men and women, there will be attacks by a stronger upon a weaker. When this happens, the law of God is very clear that the weaker must cry out for help or he will be equally guilty. This principle is found in Deuteronomy 21:23, 24. When a ‘victim’ does not cry out or immediately tell his authority he will carry around a sense of guilt which Satan will then use for condemnation and further defeat. It would therefore be important for your son to confess his failure to do this and ask God to forgive him.

https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2016/08/09/gothard-explains-why-god-allows-child-molestation-part-i/

https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2016/08/10/worksheet-claims-that-god-allows-sexual-abuse-part-ii/

https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2016/08/11/worksheet-claims-that-god-allows-sexual-abuse-part-iii/

https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2016/08/12/worksheet-claims-that-god-allows-sexual-abuse-part-iv/

Where's cps? This is abuse. Cults should be considered child abuse. 

[BitterApple]

6 minutes ago, MargeGunderson said:

Perhaps they should start thinking about how they are going to earn money. Once the TLC money train comes to a halt they are going to be in a world of trouble. So far none of the girls are marrying men with a much in the way of earning potential (and we know the girls aren't going to contribute) and there's no reason to think that the boys are going to do much more than "work" for JB, whatever that means. At some point JB's business ventures are going to be the only money coming in for all of them and that's not going to be enough. 

Agreed. Boob's worth an estimated 3 mil, but that isn't jack when you're supporting 30 Leeches and Counting. I can't imagine he pulls in enough income off those rental properties to keep everyone afloat for the next fifty years. 

[MargeGunderson]

Just now, BitterApple said:

Agreed. Boob's worth an estimated 3 mil, but that isn't jack when you're supporting 30 Leeches and Counting. I can't imagine he pulls in enough income off those rental properties to keep everyone afloat for the next fifty years. 

Especially not when some of the people inhabiting them are his unemployed children and their families. Boob may be worth that much on paper but some of that must be tied up in the properties.  He can't sell the properties that his kids live in, and the commercial properties are the ones bringing in the money. Plus he has to pay takes and upkeep on the properties so it's not like they are 100% income. He and Michelle can't be bringing in that much money from TLC at this point and they have all the kids at home to take care of for the foreseeable future. 

[riverblue22]

So Boob doesn't believe in borrowing money or taking out mortgages, right?  That would tell me that he pays cash for all of those properties he purchases.  They are probably crap properties bought very cheaply and flipped cheaply (or handed over to a kidult).  I would think that would tie up a lot of his cash in real estate and if he needed it he would have to sell and hope he made money on them.  Cash flow (without TLC) could be a problem.  I imagine that the kidults living at home turn over all their proceeds.  He might even make Jessa turn over some cash to cover her rent.  It might be interesting to see if he continues to acquire properties.

[TomServo]

On the fashion topic:  I have an acquaintance who recently got married, and her wedding dress was the same as the infamous silver MOB dress, but in a different color and without the jacket.  The length and number of skirt ruffles was the same as the version Michelle wore, so you know how some people were theorizing that Michelle had extra length added to hers?  My theory is that instead Kelly Bates might actually have had hers shortened(!) to a more flattering length.

[sometimesy]

8 hours ago, riverblue22 said:

So Boob doesn't believe in borrowing money or taking out mortgages, right?  That would tell me that he pays cash for all of those properties he purchases.  They are probably crap properties bought very cheaply and flipped cheaply (or handed over to a kidult).  I would think that would tie up a lot of his cash in real estate and if he needed it he would have to sell and hope he made money on them.  Cash flow (without TLC) could be a problem.  I imagine that the kidults living at home turn over all their proceeds.  He might even make Jessa turn over some cash to cover her rent.  It might be interesting to see if he continues to acquire properties.

He has rental properties for income, or flip them if he can make more money that way. I think JB also has income from a cell tower. They seem to have a lot of heavy equipment, trucks and bulldozer thingys, so they may be into clearing lots, or tearing down houses, putting in septic etc. They used to have an actual used car lot, but now they seem to sell vehicles online and from the front yard. The younger guys were filmed working with an 'outsider' in a garage, so it seems they do mechanical work to 'flip' cars and keep their own vehicles running at a lower cost.  Someday maybe they will open an actual garage for another income stream. As far as we can tell, the planes are for their own pleasure, but I thought I read at one time they did rent the planes out. Then there is that TLC gig. The Duggs will be just fine. Sure they are gaining more and more Duggs over time, but they seem to be expanding their 'empire' at the same time. 

[Churchhoney]

7 hours ago, sometimesy said:

He has rental properties for income, or flip them if he can make more money that way. I think JB also has income from a cell tower. They seem to have a lot of heavy equipment, trucks and bulldozer thingys, so they may be into clearing lots, or tearing down houses, putting in septic etc. They used to have an actual used car lot, but now they seem to sell vehicles online and from the front yard. The younger guys were filmed working with an 'outsider' in a garage, so it seems they do mechanical work to 'flip' cars and keep their own vehicles running at a lower cost.  Someday maybe they will open an actual garage for another income stream. As far as we can tell, the planes are for their own pleasure, but I thought I read at one time they did rent the planes out. Then there is that TLC gig. The Duggs will be just fine. Sure they are gaining more and more Duggs over time, but they seem to be expanding their 'empire' at the same time. 

Yeah, he's got a lot of small-to-medium income streams. Still, when your household is topping 30 and nobody else looks as if they'll ever get a job, I doubt you can live high off the hog on those streams.

And the cell tower isn't earning him much,  I'll bet. He lives in the boonies, where there's both less demand and pretty much space for towers. The big cell tower bucks are going to go to people with available rooftop space in downtown Chicago.

"In 2014 and 2015, we saw cell sites paying between $100 per year (that's right, $8.33 per month, to over $156,000 yearly with Top Tier cellular carriers, Verizon Wireless, AT&T, T-Mobile, US Cellular, Cricket, and Sprint. Monthly rental rates for the "Big 3" tower management companies, American Tower, Crown Castle International and SBA Communications can range from $3,600 per year to well over $60,000 per year. All lease rates regardless of carrier or cell tower developer are site specific and vary from location to location and are based on the demand for coverage and the availability of potential locations to lease ground space, tower space or rooftop space."

http://www.cell-tower-leases.com/Cell-Tower-Lease-Rates.html

Edited September 19, 2016 by Churchhoney

[Absolom]

11 hours ago, TomServo said:

 The length and number of skirt ruffles was the same as the version Michelle wore, so you know how some people were theorizing that Michelle had extra length added to hers?  My theory is that instead Kelly Bates might actually have had hers shortened(!) to a more flattering length.

That dress was available from multiple manufacturers and was in at least two lengths.

[Lemur]

Hey, it's Talk Like A Pirate Day.  Isn't it time for these people to dress up like jackasses and descend upon the local Krispy Kreme to scam them out of 24 dozen donuts?  Or did we learn our lesson last year over the minor furor this sort of activity causes?

[Sew Sumi]

1 hour ago, Lemur said:

Hey, it's Talk Like A Pirate Day.  Isn't it time for these people to dress up like jackasses and descend upon the local Krispy Kreme to scam them out of 24 dozen donuts?  Or did we learn our lesson last year over the minor furor this sort of activity causes?

I also thought about them when I heard it was Talk Like a Pirate Day. I doubt they will publicize their major grift after the flak they got last year. 

[sometimesy]

2 hours ago, Lemur said:

Hey, it's Talk Like A Pirate Day.  Isn't it time for these people to dress up like jackasses and descend upon the local Krispy Kreme to scam them out of 24 dozen donuts?  Or did we learn our lesson last year over the minor furor this sort of activity causes?

 

52 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

I also thought about them when I heard it was Talk Like a Pirate Day. I doubt they will publicize their major grift after the flak they got last year. 

Didn't they generously document their donation of one donut?

[Sew Sumi]

It was a box (a dozen) to that couple who were traveling.

[Arwen Evenstar]

4 hours ago, Lemur said:

Hey, it's Talk Like A Pirate Day.  Isn't it time for these people to dress up like jackasses and descend upon the local Krispy Kreme to scam them out of 24 dozen donuts?  Or did we learn our lesson last year over the minor furor this sort of activity causes?

Ahoy, Lemur! Aaaaaaargh!

[sometimesy]

5 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

It was a box (a dozen) to that couple who were traveling.

Whoa! It turns out they are 12 x the philanthropists I gave them credit for. :)

[Arwen Evenstar]

You all are going to love this.  Sorry for the link, but I can't attach the picture. 

 

So worth it

[Arwen Evenstar]

I got lucky this time. It doesn't always work.

[sometimesy]

14 hours ago, Arwen Evenstar said:

I got lucky this time. It doesn't always work.

Mouth wide open "Baaaaabe" you did a totally exquisite job posting that. Googly eyes. 

[Arwen Evenstar]

4 hours ago, sometimesy said:

Mouth wide open "Baaaaabe" you did a totally exquisite job posting that. Googly eyes. 

Thanks, Baaaaaaaaabe!

[kokapetl]

19 hours ago, Arwen Evenstar said:

You all are going to love this.  Sorry for the link, but I can't attach the picture. 

 

So worth it

I remember stumbling across some 80s gay porn where the men were wearing those. Deep, deep tan Californian accented man with highlighted hair examines box and exclaims "fundies?!". Then  he and his friend try 'em on. 

Edited September 21, 2016 by Kokapetl

[Arwen Evenstar]

They used to sell Fundies at places like Spencer Gifts back in the 80s.

[NewDigs]

On September 21, 2016 at 5:20 PM, Arwen Evenstar said:

They used to sell Fundies at places like Spencer Gifts back in the 80s.

They still do.

The first comment:

Oh my gosh. We used these for a bachelorette party relay race and I have never laughed so hard in my life. It was amazing. I love that they are GIANT, WHITE undies with four leg holes. They just don't get more embarrassing than that. I really thought they were going to fall apart while we ran and ripped them off/yanked them on, but they actually held up! Was able to pack them up to use for another party down the road.

BOTTOM LINE Yes, I would recommend this to a friend

I didn't think I could dislike "shower" games any more than I already did!

[Arwen Evenstar]

Maybe me and Mr Evenstar should buy a pair...after nearly 12 years, ya gotta keep sweet fellowship interesting.

[Barb23]

Maybe Sierra can add the "Fundies Undies Relay Race" to her repertoire of party games.

[Defrauder]

I don't know if this is the right thread for this or not, but fun-entertainment-vacations Duggar style seem right out of the 1800's.  When JB and Michelle were 'swapping spit' on one of their couple's retreats they went to someplace called Fort Rock, which I've nick-named Fort Crock since checking out their website, just my opinion.  So the picture of the room you get shows a queen bed and inches away 2 bunk beds.  That would be for a family.  You have to bring your own sheets, towels and pillows.  The 'town' has a library-disguised as an undertaker's parlor (their idea, not mine!) and you can get your picture taken in their jail (again their idea!).  Sounds like a blast from the past.  There is zip lining and archery plus tomahawk throwing.  Personally I'd rather stay at a Holiday Inn or an actual hotel, but that's just me.  

[Arwen Evenstar]

2 hours ago, Barb23 said:

Maybe Sierra can add the "Fundies Undies Relay Race" to her repertoire of party games.

But only married couples would get to play?  And no same sex in Fundie undies...and how does one don Fundie undies in a long skirt without purpose to defraud?  You've opened up a can of worms there.... 

[BitterApple]

2 hours ago, Defrauder said:

  Personally I'd rather stay at a Holiday Inn or an actual hotel, but that's just me.  

Me too. If I have to bring sheets, pillows and towels, and then launder those same sheets, pillows and towels when I get home, then that's not a vacation to me. It's one thing if you're renting a place for the summer, but all that work for just a couple days? No thanks.

[Sew Sumi]

Yeah, having to make up your own bed shouldn't be part of your vacation experience, although this place seems to have a lot of directed Christian group "retreat" activities as well. I am almost 100% positive that Mere and Pere Duggar have spoken at the marriage retreat, maybe even more than once. And let's not forget that Boob and the four oldest JSlaves did the father/daughter retreat some years back in addition to a Query daughter or two, since he is, apparently, their daddy figure. 

https://www.fortrock.org/events/camps-retreats/

eta: They went to many of these retreats before Jill and Jessa put dozens of sheet sets on their respective wedding registries. We saw the boys' beds with no sheets for years. Did they have to scrounge up someone's discarded sheets at a thrift shot (eeeeewwww) to make enough beds for everyone? And I wonder which lucky JSlave got to make up Daddy's Egyptian cotton bed on those daddy/daughter adventures. Even worse, did Mechelle have to actually make up her own bed on couple's retreats? I'd PAY to see that! Jana was born in 1990, so she should have been trained up to make beds by around what, 1998? That means it's highly unlikely that Mechelle has made up a bed in nearly 20 years, including her own brainbleached lovenest. 

Edited September 25, 2016 by Sew Sumi

[Defrauder]

On 9/25/2016 at 3:49 PM, Sew Sumi said:

Yeah, having to make up your own bed shouldn't be part of your vacation experience, although this place seems to have a lot of directed Christian group "retreat" activities as well. I am almost 100% positive that Mere and Pere Duggar have spoken at the marriage retreat, maybe even more than once. And let's not forget that Boob and the four oldest JSlaves did the father/daughter retreat some years back in addition to a Query daughter or two, since he is, apparently, their daddy figure. 

https://www.fortrock.org/events/camps-retreats/

eta: They went to many of these retreats before Jill and Jessa put dozens of sheet sets on their respective wedding registries. We saw the boys' beds with no sheets for years. Did they have to scrounge up someone's discarded sheets at a thrift shot (eeeeewwww) to make enough beds for everyone? And I wonder which lucky JSlave got to make up Daddy's Egyptian cotton bed on those daddy/daughter adventures. Even worse, did Mechelle have to actually make up her own bed on couple's retreats? I'd PAY to see that! Jana was born in 1990, so she should have been trained up to make beds by around what, 1998? That means it's highly unlikely that Mechelle has made up a bed in nearly 20 years, including her own brainbleached lovenest. 

That place is creepy.  The parent/child retreat - 'winning back their heart and keeping their heart' by showing them you'll spend time and money on them.  Plus - the enforcing of gender roles.   JB surely enjoyed the enforcing gender role part.  If he had gone with any of his sons he would have had to 'best' them in every sport competition to keep them in line.   His daughters not only had to change his sheets I'm sure but probably had to pack for him as well. 

Maybe Michelle made arrangements in advance to have someone change the sheets when they went on the couple's retreat in exchange for free advertising.  And no way could Michelle have gone on a Mother-Son retreat because wouldn't have been forced to take on  the motherly role without one of her sister-moms present to do the heavy lifting.

Holy crap just linked back and saw that there are no Mother/Son retreats. Just Father/Son, Father/Daughter or Mother/Daughter.

Edited September 26, 2016 by Defrauder
No Mother/Son retreats info.

[LilJen]

On 9/22/2016 at 8:01 PM, Natalie68 said:

Or it could be that they were taught to suck up whatever treatment was done to them and walk it off so they don't know what normal people do.  It sounds like they were not allowed to show proper emotions after their own brother abused them which is a travesty and probably how they had to handle other awful issues.  No time for crying when you have to take care of a crying baby.  The Duggars do indeed do things differently.

I don't even remember whether this quote was in this thread, but. . . I just spent a weekend with a good friend, now 51, whose parents raised her and her siblings Gothard style. Any infraction was handled thusly: speech from Daddy, then you laid over Daddy's lap; he proceeded to whack you with a wooden spoon, one butt cheek at a time, for a good long while; then you were expected to get up, smile, and thank Daddy and tell him you loved him. You were then shunned/given the silent treatment as well for at least several hours, if not a few days. She said it just taught them to deceive. (She's now an atheist. Which is unsurprising given the poisonous version of "Christianity" under which she was raised.)

[Tabbygirl521]

3 hours ago, LilJen said:

I don't even remember whether this quote was in this thread, but. . . I just spent a weekend with a good friend, now 51, whose parents raised her and her siblings Gothard style. Any infraction was handled thusly: speech from Daddy, then you laid over Daddy's lap; he proceeded to whack you with a wooden spoon, one butt cheek at a time, for a good long while; then you were expected to get up, smile, and thank Daddy and tell him you loved him. You were then shunned/given the silent treatment as well for at least several hours, if not a few days. She said it just taught them to deceive. (She's now an atheist. Which is unsurprising given the poisonous version of "Christianity" under which she was raised.)

This is utterly horrifying. I wish you would give her a hug from me. 

[LilJen]

10 hours ago, Tabbygirl521 said:

This is utterly horrifying. I wish you would give her a hug from me. 

She got lots of hugs from me!! Oh, there was also the whole "women are always defrauding men with their immodest dress" philosophy, as well as "the devil is always lurking out there in the world, so be terrified of everything" shtick too.

[Aja]

15 hours ago, LilJen said:

I don't even remember whether this quote was in this thread, but. . . I just spent a weekend with a good friend, now 51, whose parents raised her and her siblings Gothard style. Any infraction was handled thusly: speech from Daddy, then you laid over Daddy's lap; he proceeded to whack you with a wooden spoon, one butt cheek at a time, for a good long while; then you were expected to get up, smile, and thank Daddy and tell him you loved him. You were then shunned/given the silent treatment as well for at least several hours, if not a few days. She said it just taught them to deceive. (She's now an atheist. Which is unsurprising given the poisonous version of "Christianity" under which she was raised.)

I lived in Arkansas briefly as a 13/14 year old, and I went to school with a Gothardy girl named Wendy. Obviously her parents weren't as nuts as the Duggars because she was allowed to go to public school, but she was all floor-length skirts and no haircuts. She was actually quite popular in our junior high, because she was a genuinely nice, friendly, pretty girl. I knew virtually nothing about fundamentalism at that time, and I remember being taken aback by some of the things she told me, just the sheer amount of shit she was expected to do for her siblings and the household. She did as she was told and dressed as she was told, but was WAAAAAAAAAY over it already at the age of 14. I have no idea where she is now, but I'm certain she's not a Gothardite. She was extremely aware of when she had to "turn it on" and when she could let her guard down. I think of Wendy a lot when I see the Duggar girls.

[EAG46]

How was your friend able to escape that mindset, LilJen?    Does she have any ideas on how the Duggar children can do so?

[lulu69]

2 hours ago, Aja said:

I lived in Arkansas briefly as a 13/14 year old, and I went to school with a Gothardy girl named Wendy. Obviously her parents weren't as nuts as the Duggars because she was allowed to go to public school, but she was all floor-length skirts and no haircuts. She was actually quite popular in our junior high, because she was a genuinely nice, friendly, pretty girl. I knew virtually nothing about fundamentalism at that time, and I remember being taken aback by some of the things she told me, just the sheer amount of shit she was expected to do for her siblings and the household. She did as she was told and dressed as she was told, but was WAAAAAAAAAY over it already at the age of 14. I have no idea where she is now, but I'm certain she's not a Gothardite. She was extremely aware of when she had to "turn it on" and when she could let her guard down. I think of Wendy a lot when I see the Duggar girls.

JB would argue that this exactly why his kids are home schooled. Too much knowledge...ooops....evil in the public schools. Keep them home & insulated.

[LilJen]

8 hours ago, EAG46 said:

How was your friend able to escape that mindset, LilJen?    Does she have any ideas on how the Duggar children can do so?

Lots and lots and lots of thinking and therapy, and an awareness that grew over the years that she was being treated like dog doo and that other families and faiths did *not* operate this way. I should ask her about encouragement for escaping. :)

Somewhere she wrote a guest post at Patheos.com but I haven't found it yet.

[Westiepeach]

On 9/27/2016 at 6:10 PM, LilJen said:

I don't even remember whether this quote was in this thread, but. . . I just spent a weekend with a good friend, now 51, whose parents raised her and her siblings Gothard style. Any infraction was handled thusly: speech from Daddy, then you laid over Daddy's lap; he proceeded to whack you with a wooden spoon, one butt cheek at a time, for a good long while; then you were expected to get up, smile, and thank Daddy and tell him you loved him. You were then shunned/given the silent treatment as well for at least several hours, if not a few days. She said it just taught them to deceive. (She's now an atheist. Which is unsurprising given the poisonous version of "Christianity" under which she was raised.)

I have no words. I am sick; just sick. And sad.

[Churchhoney]

Another illuminating piece on how psychologically harrowing it can be to actually leave places like the TTH and how far you usually have to have gone in your own thinking before you really get motivated to walk out:

"It’s one of my biggest regrets. I wish I had had time to sit my siblings down to tell them that I loved them so, so much, and that me leaving was not their fault. Not being with them, and dealing with the lies they’ve been told has broken me up inside more than anything else I’ve experienced. It’s a tactic I’ve seen used over and over in other homeschooling families. It’s punishment for our sin of desiring freedom, hidden under concern. “We just don’t want the kids to be influenced by your bad behavior.” So, why did I leave? I left because I didn’t believe in god, and I was tired of pretending. I left because the emotional abuse I dealt with on a day to day basis was eroding my sanity. I left because I had discovered that I had been shamelessly lied to. I was told the world was too much for me – my place was at home. I was told that anything that the world offered was evil, and would send me to hell. I was told the only good people were Christian people. Feminists were man haters who were trying to destroy the traditional family, homosexuals were evil child molesters, and atheists took delight in abortions and destroying the foundation of our Great Christian Nation."

"Life was hell for a while. Over a year ago I spent some time in a mental hospital. The stress and grief from family issues and the betrayal from supposed friends was just too much. I tried to kill myself. Thankfully, I failed. It was a sobering time for me. Sitting around other people who had attempted suicide, or were suffering from a psychotic break, brought me straight back down to earth. I had to do something. A change had to take place. The pain I had felt had grown so much that I had tried to end my life. This wasn’t acceptable. I was better than this. There was no sympathy for me when my mother found out. It was held above me, a threat. Don’t you dare talk about what went on at home. You’re crazy after all. No one will believe you. My mother told me that suicide was for the weak."

 

With their fame and the TLC money as added incentives to stay, it's no wonder that the Duggar kids do, seems to me.

https://homeschoolersanonymous.org/2016/09/26/a-homeschool-apostate-two-years-later/

[Natalie68]

On 9/21/2016 at 0:48 PM, Kokapetl said:

I remember stumbling across some 80s gay porn where the men were wearing those. Deep, deep tan Californian accented man with highlighted hair examines box and exclaims "fundies?!". Then  he and his friend try 'em on. 

I am thinking this just SCREAMS wedding gift.

[SometimesBites]

On 9/27/2016 at 3:10 PM, LilJen said:

I don't even remember whether this quote was in this thread, but. . . I just spent a weekend with a good friend, now 51, whose parents raised her and her siblings Gothard style. Any infraction was handled thusly: speech from Daddy, then you laid over Daddy's lap; he proceeded to whack you with a wooden spoon, one butt cheek at a time, for a good long while; then you were expected to get up, smile, and thank Daddy and tell him you loved him. You were then shunned/given the silent treatment as well for at least several hours, if not a few days. She said it just taught them to deceive. (She's now an atheist. Which is unsurprising given the poisonous version of "Christianity" under which she was raised.)

I was part of a heavy-duty (non-Gothard) Christian cult-ish group from my mid-teens through my early twenties. When I was a senior in high school, I lived in one of this group's many communal houses. The "house heads" were a middle-aged couple. They had four daughters, and I was close friends with the next to the youngest. The oldest daughter was married and had a little baby, but the rest of the girls (ages 17, 18, and 11-ish) were disciplined with corporal punishment. There was a story whispered about among many of us that their mother had once taken the whipping in the intended daughter's place, arguing that just as Christ took our punishment, she wanted to stand in the gap for the daughter (for whatever reason).

Daddy as ersatz god. Even as a starry-eyed believer, I found this to be terrifically bizarre.

[louannems]

3 minutes ago, SometimesBites said:

I was part of a heavy-duty (non-Gothard) Christian cult-ish group from my mid-teens through my early twenties. When I was a senior in high school, I lived in one of this group's many communal houses. The "house heads" were a middle-aged couple. They had four daughters, and I was close friends with the next to the youngest. The oldest daughter was married and had a little baby, but the rest of the girls (ages 17, 18, and 11-ish) were disciplined with corporal punishment. There was a story whispered about among many of us that their mother had once taken the whipping in the intended daughter's place, arguing that just as Christ took our punishment, she wanted to stand in the gap for the daughter (for whatever reason).

Daddy as ersatz god. Even as a starry-eyed believer, I found this to be terrifically bizarre.

I read the book, "Girl At The End Of The World".  The teen girl had parents who were also "house heads" and the family often had several young adults living with them, learning about the christian cult.  Corporal punishment was used daily and described in detail.