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S05.E07: A Christmas Miracle

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Christmas? That's going to be weird. I'm not much of a Christmas in July person - I like the holidays to stay in their lanes.

How nice of Charles to make up his mind. :P I know it won't happen, but I would LOVE for Liza to tell him to stick it where the sun don't shine, at least for a while. I REALLY hope she doesn't just fall into his arms because he's decided to forgive her and grace her romantic life with his presence.

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54 minutes ago, Gothish520 said:

I REALLY hope she doesn't just fall into his arms because he's decided to forgive her and grace her romantic life with his presence.

Yeah, she really needs to make him work a bit at this point.

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7 hours ago, Gothish520 said:

Christmas? That's going to be weird. I'm not much of a Christmas in July person - I like the holidays to stay in their lanes.

How nice of Charles to make up his mind. :P I know it won't happen, but I would LOVE for Liza to tell him to stick it where the sun don't shine, at least for a while. I REALLY hope she doesn't just fall into his arms because he's decided to forgive her and grace her romantic life with his presence.

I think it was originally written to air closer to Christmas, at least in winter, but when they changed it from a winter to a summer show, it meant that this was off.  The last few episodes definitely took place in winter--when she fell with Christian Borle she fell because of ice, they've been wearing hats and scarves and winter coats.  I think this is due to the scheduling gods, not the writers.

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I don't even like Zane, but Kelsey's terrible boundaries and unprofessionalism did him wrong especially since his work on the book has only improved it. That Jake got Zane removed from the book also proves one other truism about Kelsey--she only dates dicks.

Charles decided to finally commit and show Liza that he's into her. About damn time.

Yodeling!

Only assholes gift someone a live tree. I like Enzo, but bringing that tree was obnoxious.

At some point, David is going to drop that "we're not divorced" bomb.

That necklace that Diana gave Liza was hideous.

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*rushes into thread shrieking*

They kissed!!!!!!!!!!!!

I may be the last surviving member of HMS CharlesLiza.  I don't care.  I've been grinding my way through the David Fincher Festival, what passes for current empowerment programming (UnReal/GirlfriendsGuide/Dietland), and goddamnit!  I needed some smooshy Hallmark Channel snow-covered swooning.

And I'm just as happy for Diana.  A man who shows up with a Christmas tree is a good man.

eta: Yikes!  Sorry, @HunterHunted.  Agree to disagree on the tree ish.  Douglas Fir? Blue Spruce? Colored lights? that's a panty-dropper, if ever was one.

Edited by voiceover
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2 hours ago, voiceover said:

*rushes into thread shrieking*

They kissed!!!!!!!!!!!!

I may be the last surviving member of HMS CharlesLiza.  I don't care.  I've been grinding my way through the David Fincher Festival, what passes for current empowerment programming (UnReal/GirlfriendsGuide/Dietland), and goddamnit!  I needed some smooshy Hallmark Channel snow-covered swooning.

And I'm just as happy for Diana.  A man who shows up with a Christmas tree is a good man.

eta: Yikes!  Sorry, @HunterHunted.  Agree to disagree on the tree ish.  Douglas Fir? Blue Spruce? Colored lights? that's a panty-dropper, if ever was one.

You are far from the last. There are not a lot of us here but tons on Reddit and ONTD. 

I want Diana to marry Enzo. There, I said it. They are delightful together.

Oh, and I loved the episode.

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As painfully long as they dragged this Liza and Charles thing out to the point where I just hated it and wanted it to end, I do have to give the show some credit for how they handled it in the end. It was nice he got to see her with her kid and finally understand where she was coming from. I expected it to me much worse.

I could've sworn they were going to again have poor Josh walk up on Charles and Liza kissing, but Caitlyn is still a dolt for offering him false hope. 

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Cute episode.

I just love Diana and Maggie. Enzo is sweet, and I think he is here to stay.

I can't stand the SoM and just couldn't with the yodeling. And Caitlin talking to Josh. I liked the scene where Caitlin's roomate's parents introduced Charles to Liza.

 

One more thing, because @HunterHunted mentioned the divorce: I too thought that they had not finished the divorce yet, but in the first episode of the season Edward LL Moore mentioned that among his pieces of proof for Liza's age were the divorce papers??

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57 minutes ago, Aulty said:

One more thing, because @HunterHunted mentioned the divorce: I too thought that they had not finished the divorce yet, but in the first episode of the season Edward LL Moore mentioned that among his pieces of proof for Liza's age were the divorce papers??

He could have gotten proof of her petition for divorce. It doesn't have to be finalized. Divorce actions are public.

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Oh well, Liza & Charles. A (kinda) subversive show turns into a every ageing housewives' wet dream of a mid class woman who finds her rich prince. How sad. His previous  marriage was dysfunctional, doesn't it ring a bell? (Or is it – again – only a hysterical woman to blame for Charles's marriage falling apart?)      

Edited by skotnikov
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4 hours ago, skotnikov said:

Oh well, Liza & Charles. A (kinda) subversive show turns into a every ageing housewives' wet dream of a mid class woman who finds her rich prince. How sad. His previous dysfunctional marriage, doesn't it ring a bell? (Or is it – again – only a hysterical woman to blame for Charles's marriage falling apart?)      

 

As an aging housewife, if you're going to fall in love, might as well be with a rich prince.  

Liza's marriage fell apart as well and if I recall correctly, Charles wife walked out on him, not the other way around.

Edited by Boofish
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Still think Charles is a humorless dud, but at least he got over himself a bit. Doubt it'll change his personality much. I missed the final scene (I'm not sitting around through commercials to watch a 12-second scene, which is about what the cappers on this show have been averaging lately), but I'm assuming he went back to get Liza and kissed her in the snow? (Because I've seen TV before.)

Interesting that "everything Liza's done has been for her daughter!" when she went entire seasons without acknowledging her existence. Shrug. At least there's Diana!

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Most of that was meh - the only surprise was as mentioned above that Josh did not walk into Charles and Liza kissing. I'm also not liking that what it took for Charles to overcome his grudge was the mama-bear card. She even got fat cheque in order to save her cub from more bread-facing! And gone is the powersuit and the attitude- replaced by the most insane piece of jewelry I've seen in a long time (one that even those supposedly horrible millennials would hesitate to wear for a meeting).

Kelsey's storyline is getting worse and worse. And yet I'm sure once it all comes crashing down on her we're supposed to feel sorry for her. Yeah right.

Maggie's plot was sadly predictable - once the bracelets came out it was clear where it was heading. This episode was saved by Diana and her priceless advice: Neckwear should inspire envy, Liza, not seizures. (I might not envy her her necklaces but I'm certainly envious of her attitude.)

11 minutes ago, gesundheit said:

Still think Charles is a humorless dud, but at least he got over himself a bit. Doubt it'll change his personality much. I missed the final scene (I'm not sitting around through commercials to watch a 12-second scene, which is about what the cappers on this show have been averaging lately), but I'm assuming he went back to get Liza and kissed her in the snow? (Because I've seen TV before.)

Right you are - it was very Bridget Jonesy.

Edited by MissLucas
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35 minutes ago, Boofish said:

As an aging housewife, if you're going to fall in love, might as well be with a rich prince.  

Liza's marriage fell apart as well and if I recall correctly, Charles wife walked out on him, not the other way around.

Liza's fell apart because of her husband, exactly like Pauline's. 

Anyway, I also find office romance quite improper.   

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I want Diana and Enzo to have fun storylines and never ever break up.  I’m an unabashed Miriam Schor Fan

I’m a fan of Josh (the actor has a lovely smile when he’s “in the moment” and not phoning it in), but I have to give props to the Peter Hermann because Charles was pretty great last night.

I don’t see Charles/Liza lasting super long because together there would be no conflict;  an “age appropriate” match with money and cute kids.  Great for real life, boring for tv.

Maggie’s golden handcuff moment was terrific; I wonder if they return the art and she has to give back the money.

Kelsey’s story line is zzzzzz....

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I don't really mind Kelsey but I hated the way she threw Liza's lie in her face to justify what she was doing; own your shit.  If you felt good about your decisions, there would be no need to justify your actions thru someone else's misdeeds. I can't stand people like that.

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8 hours ago, Aulty said:

I liked the scene where Caitlin's roomate's parents introduced Charles to Liza.

I liked it too. I like the figurative "It's nice to meet you, Liza" from Charles. It didn't come off as he was playing along to not knowing her to not out her, but to copping that he was being finally introduced to the real Liza. 

It's quite funny that Caitlin was the one who softened the blow for both Kelsey and Charles when Liza was outed with the lie. The lie was bad, and for as long as she did, but seeing the humanity behind it, you see the big picture.

I still don't get Zane's storyline TBH. First, Empirical was already having trouble meeting payroll and yet, Charles hires Zane, who I assume is making a lot more than peanuts in his position. Second, IIRC, Charles introduced him as their new marketing director (or something like that). Which falls in line on why he got so competitive against Kelsey in the promotional push of Marriage Vacation. So why is he suddenly so involved with this author as an editor?! 

Speaking of Marriage Vacation, I'm glad that, while they dropped that storyline, it got a mention this week. I was thinking that when it wasn't mentioned the past couple of episodes, that the writers are pretending that part of the season didn't happen at all. I mean, the book, as the publisher's bestseller, couldn't just fall off the universe entirely. 

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12 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

That necklace that Diana gave Liza was hideous.

It sure was. I actually find a lot of Diana's necklaces hideous, but she wears them so well they work—on her. On anyone else they look ridiculous. 

8 hours ago, retrograde said:

It was nice he got to see her with her kid and finally understand where she was coming from.

They've drawn this thing out for so long I can't remember: Did Liza ever explain to Charles that she went back to work because of Caitlin? I thought his change of heart was a bit WTF and sudden, but I'm glad it's finally over.

Liza's yodeling was hilarious, and I died when she saw Charles and tried to hide behind Caitlin, who had no idea what Liza was doing and kept pushing her in front of her.

1 hour ago, MissLucas said:

Kelsey's storyline is getting worse and worse. And yet I'm sure once it all comes crashing down on her we're supposed to feel sorry for her. Yeah right.

The one positive thing about this story is that Kelsey knows she's playing with fire. I don't feel sorry for Zane here, though, especially on the work side. He'd cut out Kelsey in a hot minute if the opportunity presented itself. And since neither guy has said he wants to be exclusive, Kelsey can sleep with anyone she wants. 

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 I don't know much about the art world, but does buying the entire collections of promising artists and then locking them away make sense from an investment perspective? Wouldn't it be more practical to ensure that certain pieces were displayed or on loan to build excitement about the artist you just invested in, making their early pieces worth more?

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5 minutes ago, buffyshrugged said:

 I don't know much about the art world, but does buying the entire collections of promising artists and then locking them away make sense from an investment perspective? Wouldn't it be more practical to ensure that certain pieces were displayed or on loan to build excitement about the artist you just invested in, making their early pieces worth more?

Here's a piece about art speculation.

https://www.artsy.net/article/artsy-editorial-what-you-need-to-know-about-the-emerging-art-market-right-now

It's also used to launder money.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/report-on-business/international-business/european-business/economists-urge-tighter-regulations-to-curb-money-laundering-in-art-market/article26217852/

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6 hours ago, skotnikov said:

Oh well, Liza & Charles. A (kinda) subversive show turns into a every ageing housewives' wet dream of a mid class woman who finds her rich prince. How sad. His previous  marriage was dysfunctional, doesn't it ring a bell? (Or is it – again – only a hysterical woman to blame for Charles's marriage falling apart?)      

I would laugh forever and ever if Liza and Charles had just awful awful sex. Liza's handsome, rich, big dicked prince was just awful in bed, but we know he's not because page 58. Ugh.

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I'd have been a lot happier about the ending last night if they didn't rip that scene straight out of Bridget Jones's Diary and there was any compelling, clear reason for Charles's big change of heart, but nah. He sees her yodel and they both commiserate over being parents for 5 seconds in the coffee break room. Geez, the original BH 90210 had better writing than this.

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I was a little disappointed that they pulled out the trick pony of Sutton singing. Don't get me wrong-- I LOVE Sutton-- and her voice but I seem to recall her saying when asked,  that we wouldn't see Liza sing. 

Zane can just go away-- don't care about his hurt feelings. Don't care about him as a character at all. He acts like a player, he initially used info he gleaned pillow talk with Kelsey to steal LL Moore from Empirical but acts all butt hurt when the roles are reversed. Nope.

 

Honestly,  I loved the moment between Diana and Liza with the gift exchange. Miriam is amazing. You could tell Diana was honestly moved by the hand made gift-- but covered with bluster. 

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I hear everyone about the way they handled getting Charles and Liza together being disappointing.  Yes to not loving that they played the "mommy card" for softening Charles to her, or ripping off "Bridget Jones's Diary".  I would have much rather he softened as a result of her power and talent, but whatever.  It's kind of anticlimactic but I'm just glad they finally put us Charles shippers out of our misery.  I just hope they don't make a mess out of it, as they've been known to do with these things.  I knew last week that the show was gearing up to have him soften, I just didn't know it would happen so fast and seemingly out of the blue.

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1 hour ago, sacrebleu said:

You could tell Diana was honestly moved by the hand made gift-- but covered with bluster. 

I wasn't sure if Diana was moved because it was handmade or if it reminded her of something? Not that it matters either way, but I'm always dying to know about the fabulous Ms. Trout.

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I liked the way they handled Charles and Liza, even if it was predictable, and I didn't see his change of heart as being just about the "mommy card." At the party he got to see her surrounded by friends who loved and respected the "real" Liza, and he saw her being natural and relaxed as a 40-something woman and even acting a bit goofy with her kid. The fact that she risked creating a double life for the benefit of her child was just icing on the cake. I thought it was a great sequel scene to the one a few weeks ago when Charles kept looking at Liza at the office to see whether she looked younger or older. Now, finally, everything's clicked into place in his mind, and he sees the real Liza. Cheesy, but I liked it.

I like Josh, but come on writers, either give him a real storyline or get rid of him. It's painful to see him go from a three dimensional character with a thriving business and lots of friends and hobbies, to someone who spends all his time talking to Liza's friends or mooning over Liza in his empty tattoo parlor. It's pathetic and a real disservice to the actor and the character.

I'm exciting about seeing a bearded Charles next week. I'm not normally a beard fan, but I'll make an exception for him!

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5 hours ago, HunterHunted said:

I would laugh forever and ever if Liza and Charles had just awful awful sex. Liza's handsome, rich, big dicked prince was just awful in bed, but we know he's not because page 58. Ugh.

Well, be that as it may, there is still zero chemistry when Liza and Charles kiss, and as we've concluded, that has to be on Peter, because there's plenty of chemistry when Sutton and Nico kiss.  This continues to baffle me, because I've always felt, and still do, that there's chemistry between Liza and Charles when they're not kissing.

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32 minutes ago, LuvMyShows said:

Well, be that as it may, there is still zero chemistry when Liza and Charles kiss, and as we've concluded, that has to be on Peter, because there's plenty of chemistry when Sutton and Nico kiss.  This continues to baffle me, because I've always felt, and still do, that there's chemistry between Liza and Charles when they're not kissing.

I've been lamenting this for weeks. It's really not on Peter. Chemistry is a funny thing between actors. It either comes alive on screen or it doesn't. You can't force it and that, I think, is what's happening here. In the storyline everyone has been working toward for 5 years, Charles and Liza should be fireworks. But let's be real, they're not. Nico and Sutton can't be in the same frame together without creating chemistry, which is why Josh became a character and not a one-time thing. You can't plan for that.

You can, however, write around it. And the writers are now promising some steamy ep next week like will likely fizzle. Charles and Liza are intriguing as equal adults trying to figure each other out, but I see nothing on screen that makes me buy them as a romantic couple. 

There's a reason you see Caitlin hunting down Josh - she sees the obvious, palpable chemistry between Liza and Josh, even when they're trying to be friends. We as viewers can see it too. For real, I think Sutton has more chemistry with the actor who plays her ex-husband than she does with Charles. It's frustrating because I understand what the writers want us to feel, but it's a lot of telling and not a lot of "feeling" on my part. I don't feel Charles and Liza. 

Miriam Shor, though? She is FIRE on screen with any man. I just want Diana to be happy. Even if she acts like a jerk to Liza at times.

Kelsey has done the same dumb thing for 5 seasons now. STOP DATING PEOPLE YOU WORK WITH. Ugh. I don't feel bad for her. I don't feel bad for Zane either. They're both varying degrees of the same kind of opportunist. 

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I hope Liza chokes the next time she says she’s perpetuating the age con for Caitlin. She’s doing it for Liza, so she can have a second shot at the road not taken. I don’t think it’s bad or wrong that she’s doing for herself after raising a child, but it’s not cute to pretend she’s being selfless when she’s not. If money was the object, she’d have gotten one of the Mom jobs her girlfriends in Jersey had, not manipulated her way into a prestige position with a pittance of a salary. 

What’s the deal with Maggie’s overly possessive patrons? Once the check clears, can’t she just say “sorry, no refunds” and be done with it? They bought her existing collection, not the rights to her future work, and they’re not employing her in some capacity, unless I missed something. I’m sure they’re billionaires who are highly connected in the art world, but I must be missing whatever the show was going for. Are they trying to prevent her from creating so her current collection goes up in value? Even if that’s the case, she’s not under contract with them, so who cares?

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It's so great to see Diana happy and with a genuine guy. I want him to be the one for her. Miriam's such a boss in every scene and she nails subtly. Her reaction to Liza's gift and Enzo turning on the tree was perfect!!!

I don't care about Kelsey's triangle. She's making the same mistake she always does and the whole thing is boring. I was fine when there was the tension between her and Zane, I could've watched them falling for each other in the middle of a fierce rivalry but they botched it and added in this other dud. Like Diana, I think Kelsey needs to find someone outside of that world to ground her. Its the opposite of what I feel for Liza. Its why I like her with Charles although I think that may be a minority opinion on this board. I see a ton of chemistry between Liza and Josh as well, if the show were to put them together in the end and do it right I'd have no problem with it. Why I prefer Charles is that Liza has lived her life and despite her manipulations, she knows who she is. She loves literature, she's intellectual, ambitious, and maternal. She was stuck with a dipshit husband all those years that was completely mismatched for her. For her personality type, having someone of like mind and interest is where she'd be happiest, imo. 

After all this time I'm ready to see how Liza and Charles play out when officially together and not in a state of will they won't they.  Although seeing Pauline in the preview I wonder if they will have even one whole episode of happiness before something rips them apart again.

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2 hours ago, ZuluQueenOfDwarves said:

I hope Liza chokes the next time she says she’s perpetuating the age con for Caitlin. She’s doing it for Liza, so she can have a second shot at the road not taken. I don’t think it’s bad or wrong that she’s doing for herself after raising a child, but it’s not cute to pretend she’s being selfless when she’s not. If money was the object, she’d have gotten one of the Mom jobs her girlfriends in Jersey had, not manipulated her way into a prestige position with a pittance of a salary.  

I was typing a reply very much along these lines, but you said it better than I did!

17 minutes ago, CharethCutestory said:

Why I prefer Charles is that Liza has lived her life and despite her manipulations, she knows who she is. She loves literature, she's intellectual, ambitious, and maternal. She was stuck with a dipshit husband all those years that was completely mismatched for her. For her personality type, having someone of like mind and interest is where she'd be happiest, imo. 

And that's why in spite of how immature I think Charles has been, and the poor behavior in the workplace, and the lack of chemistry, I can't help but hope that they end up together!

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Freakin' Kelsey. It's unprofessional to sleep with a coworker. Sure, it happens, but not all the time. It's beyond unprofessional to sleep with a client! That's a good way to lose them.

I enjoyed the "Sutton Foster sings/yodels." I've been hoping for just a little singing from her. It was cute.

Well, I was on Team Charles/Liza, but now I'm not so sure. He really is an uptight dud. Age aside, maybe Josh really is a better match for her.

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Episode-related things aside, what's going on with Peter Hermann's face? It looks like he got some weird work done where his lips got pulled really tight. It's distracting.

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3 hours ago, thesupremediva1 said:

I've been lamenting this for weeks. It's really not on Peter. Chemistry is a funny thing between actors. It either comes alive on screen or it doesn't. You can't force it and that, I think, is what's happening here. In the storyline everyone has been working toward for 5 years, Charles and Liza should be fireworks. But let's be real, they're not. Nico and Sutton can't be in the same frame together without creating chemistry, which is why Josh became a character and not a one-time thing. You can't plan for that.

 

4 hours ago, thesupremediva1 said:

There's a reason you see Caitlin hunting down Josh - she sees the obvious, palpable chemistry between Liza and Josh, even when they're trying to be friends. We as viewers can see it too. For real, I think Sutton has more chemistry with the actor who plays her ex-husband than she does with Charles. It's frustrating because I understand what the writers want us to feel, but it's a lot of telling and not a lot of "feeling" on my part. I don't feel Charles and Liza. 

I don't agree that the storyline as written and performed should be enough to produce fireworks between Charles and Liza.  There's a reason there's abundant chemistry between Josh and Liza - The script has given them just the right sort of exposure and timing of that exposure to produce sparks..  Flirty scenes and heart to hearts and all that.  Not so much with Charles and Liza.  Every time these two get close a huge figurative fire hose douses them before they can achieve any kind of closeness or intimacy.  The show has kept Charles and Liza at too much of a "work appropriate" distance to achieve that.  The only time things got hot was in Liza's dream last year in Charles' office when they get hot and steamy up against the bookcase.  And we weren't even allowed to appreciate that.  Instead we got left high and dry after that realizing it was all just a dream! Then later in the same episode they share a furtive real life kiss, which as I recall was interrupted by the janitor.   What a let down!  COME ON, writers!  These two haven't been given one break by the script.  It's been one cold shower after another for one whole entire year since then.  The show keeps dicking us around (pun intended) past the point of being able to sustain anticipation and excitement over it.  As Samantha in SATC would say, "I lost my hard on".  It's no wonder the two actors don't have chemistry when the script refuses to let them develop any literally going on for YEARS now.  It's ridiculous.

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20 hours ago, retrograde said:

As painfully long as they dragged this Liza and Charles thing out to the point where I just hated it and wanted it to end, I do have to give the show some credit for how they handled it in the end. It was nice he got to see her with her kid and finally understand where she was coming from. I expected it to me much worse.

I could've sworn they were going to again have poor Josh walk up on Charles and Liza kissing, but Caitlyn is still a dolt for offering him false hope. 

1

This can't be said enough. I know she's young, but Caitlyn is ridiculous. Imagine how she'll act when she finds out her parents aren't really divorced. "Mom, I just want us to be a family again...even though Dad was terrible to you."

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3 hours ago, Ms Lark said:

Freakin' Kelsey. It's unprofessional to sleep with a coworker. Sure, it happens, but not all the time. It's beyond unprofessional to sleep with a client! That's a good way to lose them.

As near as we can figure, only a year or two has elapsed since the pilot. In that time, Kelsey has had a serious boyfriend who became her fiance and had sex with 3 of her authors. Her lack of professionalism in this realm is astonishing. So far she's been really lucky because Bjornburg was married and wasn't really trying leave his wife despite his over the top professions of love. Colin was a user. But Jake seems like he really likes her and would like to make this real and I don't think she's ready to break her really bad patterns.

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2 hours ago, Yeah No said:

 

I don't agree that the storyline as written and performed should be enough to produce fireworks between Charles and Liza.  There's a reason there's abundant chemistry between Josh and Liza - The script has given them just the right sort of exposure and timing of that exposure to produce sparks..  Flirty scenes and heart to hearts and all that.  Not so much with Charles and Liza.  Every time these two get close a huge figurative fire hose douses them before they can achieve any kind of closeness or intimacy.  The show has kept Charles and Liza at too much of a "work appropriate" distance to achieve that.  The only time things got hot was in Liza's dream last year in Charles' office when they get hot and steamy up against the bookcase.  And we weren't even allowed to appreciate that.  Instead we got left high and dry after that realizing it was all just a dream! Then later in the same episode they share a furtive real life kiss, which as I recall was interrupted by the janitor.   What a let down!  COME ON, writers!  These two haven't been given one break by the script.  It's been one cold shower after another for one whole entire year since then.  The show keeps dicking us around (pun intended) past the point of being able to sustain anticipation and excitement over it.  As Samantha in SATC would say, "I lost my hard on".  It's no wonder the two actors don't have chemistry when the script refuses to let them develop any literally going on for YEARS now.  It's ridiculous.

The kiss in the Hamptons was very sexy (in the bar and outside the door) as was Pound Ridge. I've always seen their first kiss in the mall as Charles testing the waters with a smaller smooch. I never thought that one was meant to be anything more than the kiss it turned out to be. 

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Wtf happened?

Last I checked, Liza dropped the rocker’s memoir on Charles’ desk and said that she “didn’t run away “ (good stuff). Now she’s yodeling “lonely goatherd”, and Charles is handing out checks and kisses. It feels like at least 2 episodes worth of scenes got lost in the editing and left us with this hasty plot twist.

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The Kiss was a dud for me. They'd already had them kiss so many times before that it was anti-climactic.. And cliche. Hoo boy,is this show cliche. The re-introduction to each other at the Xmas party; the request for the cabby to turn around; the kiss in the snow. We've seen it all so many times that it completely sucked the air out the The Kiss for me.

I don'tlike Zane or the actor who plays him. I've seen more than one interview where he's said crude things.  Zane reminds me of Finn (Mtthew Goode) from The Good Wife. They added a male lead character because Josh Charles left, but they had no idea what to do with him so he became this one dimensional prop. Not only is Zane boring, he's a lech. I've said this before: in the current Me Too climate, having a male character so sexually charged in the work place and who kisses a female co-worker without her consent at a Christmas party is really tone deaf. They either need to write him as less ass grabby or get rid of him. Same for Lauren. She was fun in the first season. Now she's just there to facilitate other character's story lines.

I'm sensing a Josh/Caitlin pairing.

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50 minutes ago, sashayshante said:

who kisses a female co-worker without her consent at a Christmas party

While they should perhaps have discussed workplace boundaries, they were in a relationship, and she had been welcoming of his kisses.  I don't see this as sexual harassment, because of their relationship.  As he actually said to her, she welcomed it over the weekend.  It was the chance of her author finding out that made it unwelcome, not that he was kissing her.  It's also important not to demonize reasonable behavior in the #Metoo era.

Edited by Ailianna
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9 hours ago, Bean421 said:

This can't be said enough. I know she's young, but Caitlyn is ridiculous. Imagine how she'll act when she finds out her parents aren't really divorced. "Mom, I just want us to be a family again...even though Dad was terrible to you."

What Liza should have said to Caitlin when she made that ridiculous request that they be "a family" for Christmas was, "The three of us together are not a family anymore, that's how divorce works." I mean, what is she, five? She needs to butt out of her Mom's social life and get one of her own.

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I can't believe that no one mentioned Diana's AWESOME dress with one regular sleeve and one giant kimono sleeve.  I've never seen anything like it.  Only she could pull it of.  Amazing!

Edited by NaughtyKitty · Reason: fix a typo
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17 hours ago, ZuluQueenOfDwarves said:

I hope Liza chokes the next time she says she’s perpetuating the age con for Caitlin. She’s doing it for Liza, so she can have a second shot at the road not taken. I don’t think it’s bad or wrong that she’s doing for herself after raising a child, but it’s not cute to pretend she’s being selfless when she’s not. If money was the object, she’d have gotten one of the Mom jobs her girlfriends in Jersey had, not manipulated her way into a prestige position with a pittance of a salary. 

 

I (respectfully) completely disagree with this statement -- I think she's doing it both for Caitlin and herself.

And why shouldn't she? She gave up the life path she was on at a young age to become the suburban mom, do all the family stuff, and walk away from something she really loved. She did sacrifice herself and her goals for her family. She made the choice and embraced it, but even when you make a choice, especially one that benefits others more than you and takes away from your own goals, you do always think about the road not taken. 

She did the dutiful mom and wife thing until her daughter was out of the house, despite her husband running through their finances. Why SHOULD she stay in New Jersey doing the "mom jobs"? She not that person anymore. She doesn't have the house anymore, her daughter is away at college, and her ex is out of her life. She would be completely isolated in married suburbia since she didn't fit that mold anymore.

She put the New Jersey family life/perfect suburban family picture ahead of herself for years and now she is finally in a place to do what she wants, on her own terms, without having to answer to anyone else. Why SHOULDN'T she be selfish? She's still managing her responsibilities -- she managed the burden for her husband's financial mistakes, she is still doing what she needs to for her daughter, but she found a way to do it AND have a little bit of what she wants. She earned the right to finally put herself first! 

She needed a job and her life was in a place where she could change it and go back to the road not taken years ago. I think a lot of women in her situation would like to do the same, and would encounter the same ageist issues. Would they all lie about their age to make it happen? No, but that's been debated in these chats since the show began so I'm not going to touch on that. The important thing is that she felt strongly enough that it was finally her turn to do what she wanted she found a way to make it happen. Not an ideal way, but she did.

And, I wouldn't say being an admin in a publishing house is a "prestige position." She earned the Millennium co-editor job, and even then, she still had to balance it with her admin duties. Not exactly prestige. She took a job, any job, in a field she loved, because she finally could. Saying she should take a "mom job" is only suggesting she continue to make that sacrifice despite the fact that her life situation has changed from needing to have a "mom job" because of familial obligations. 

This is clearly a touchpoint for me -- I've spent the bulk of my adult life doing the things I "should" do, or was raised to believe I was "supposed" to do. Not the husband/kids route, but some other choices I made because my family beat me down (not physically) for years and years for having the nerve to want to do something other than what they thought I should -- and I let them. Even though they did what they wanted, somehow I was the bad person for wanting to do what I wanted -- and trust me, it wasn't anything major -- just moving to a different, and much warmer, state. 

Now, at age 50, single, no kids, I have picked up and moved to the place I've always wanted to live but was made to feel guilty about wanting to do so, am finally buying my first house, and am trying to finally get the life I've wanted since I was 20 years old, and could have had if I hadn't allowed my family to make me feel like a horrible human being for wanting it. For years, none of my friends could understand why I didn't do what I talked about wanting to do -- I had no ties keeping me where I was, but yet I stayed -- and I couldn't really explain it, but inside I knew it was because it had been drilled into me that I shouldn't and was a bad person for wanting to. And for years, I listened to those voices instead of my own -- even now, I still hear the family voices in my head beating me down for it. But I'm doing it anyway. And its weird, and its hard, and I am struggling to get to the point where I can truly embrace it. 

Its a VERY long story, but I'm actually in a lawsuit with my sister that has resulted from their bad feelings toward me whenever I did try to live my life on my own terms. The more I stood up for myself and stood up against them, the worse things got, and they took it out on me by convincing my father to change his will and give my sister just enough control that she can keep a significant amount of money owed to me from a family business, even though I am legally entitled to it. All because I tried to stand up for myself and push back to try to live my life the way I wanted, not the way they thought I should. 

So, short story long, whenever anyone says someone else "should" do something, I take umbrage with that. It is no one else's place to say what someone should or shouldn't do, so long as they aren't hurting themselves or someone else, and they certainly shouldn't be punished for it (like what I'm dealing with). People are floored when they hear the whole story. Some days, I truly wonder how I didn't end up in a mental institution from the emotional abuse they put me through -- when it was at its worst, I reached a point where I questioned my mental sanity. And that's what they wanted -- and they almost got it.  It really can be that bad.

Edited by SailorGirl
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17 hours ago, ZuluQueenOfDwarves said:

If money was the object, she’d have gotten one of the Mom jobs her girlfriends in Jersey had

What is a "mom job," and how it is different from a "dad job"?

22 minutes ago, SailorGirl said:

And, I wouldn't say being an admin in a publishing house is a "prestige position." She earned the Millennium co-editor job, and even then, she still had to balance it with her admin duties. Not exactly prestige.

We're supposed to think Empirical is a prestigious publisher, and Liza isn't really an admin. She's Diana's assistant, and there's an implicit acknowledgement that Liza (or anyone in that job) will be promoted if she shows any aptitude, which she has. The reason she's double-dipping, as it were, right now is because when Millennium was first formed, there wasn't really enough full-time work for her to do. But there seems to be now, so I hope the show does something with this. It would take Liza out of Diana's direct orbit, but that can be easily fixed.

I think Liza using Caitlin as her excuse for lying about her age is actually dumb. She lied about her age because no one would hire a 40-year-old for an entry-level position. Why she had to work isn't important. I don't think having a kid makes her more sympathetic than if she'd been a divorcée with no kids. 

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18 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I think Liza using Caitlin as her excuse for lying about her age is actually dumb. She lied about her age because no one would hire a 40-year-old for an entry-level position. Why she had to work isn't important. I don't think having a kid makes her more sympathetic than if she'd been a divorcée with no kids. 

Yeah. I feel like Caitlin being the reason is a bit of a retcon. I remember it as her needing money, needing to work and finally being at a point in her life where she could do the job she'd always dreamed of. So she tries, and can't because of her age. So she lies about her age to get into the bottom rung of her dream career. Nothing at all wrong with that (other than the illegality and lying lol, but that part doesn't change regardless of her reason for doing it).

I think it's sad that the show felt the need to make Charles' acceptance based on Liza doing this for her kid. Like, the felt Charles needed that mommy angle or wouldn't be willing to accept that Liza had to lie to have a chance at her dream. IDK, just makes me like him even less, which is barely possible at this point. Other than looks and money I see nothing appealing about Charles. He is neither that hot nor that rich to make up for his total lack of personality, professionalism or talent as a businessman. Hey, maybe we'll find out he has a dream of being a circus clown and seeing Liza go after her dream will inspire him to go after his. haha. Either way, I will never root for them as a couple so long as he is running the company she works for no matter how much chemistry they manage to muster.

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7 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

I think it's sad that the show felt the need to make Charles' acceptance based on Liza doing this for her kid. Like, the felt Charles needed that mommy angle or wouldn't be willing to accept that Liza had to lie to have a chance at her dream.

Liza is doing it for Caitlin in that she's helping to pay for Caitlin's college education, but Liza also needs to support herself. I guess the mom angle is to complement Charles being a parent, too? As in, it's another thing they have in common, so of course they're each other's lobster? 

It makes me wonder how they'll deal with Charles's daughters. Liza had fun babysitting them, but that's a lot different from being their dad's serious girlfriend. It's a completely different relationship. Also, if Liza didn't want to have a baby with Josh, would she want to help raise two tweens? I know there's a huge difference, but she'd still be semi-responsible for two kids.

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1 hour ago, SailorGirl said:

She put the New Jersey family life/perfect suburban family picture ahead of herself for years and now she is finally in a place to do what she wants, on her own terms, without having to answer to anyone else. Why SHOULDN'T she be selfish? She's still managing her responsibilities -- she managed the burden for her husband's financial mistakes, she is still doing what she needs to for her daughter, but she found a way to do it AND have a little bit of what she wants. She earned the right to finally put herself first! 

I absolutely agree that she’s earned the right to be selfish and this is the point in her life at which she should put herself first and pursue a career. I have no issues with that—I applaud it. What I hate is her positioning the con she’s pulling on Empirical as something she’s doing for Caitlin when it has nothing to do with her daughter at all. Defending her right to be selfish is admirable. Positioning her selfishness as selflessness is not. 

 

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

What is a "mom job," and how it is different from a "dad job"?

Jobs that SAHMs take on when their kids grow up. Usually retail or office work. They’re mostly staffed by mothers with older kids and/or who are going through a divorce, and can’t get the jobs that match their age and education because of the time they sacrificed to raise their kids. 

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