S02.E09: Vanishing Point

[Chicago Redshirt]

40 minutes ago, MJ Frog said:

Ford confounds me. I have absolutely no idea where he stands. How could any good father not only allow, but engineer, the kind of suffering the hosts have endured? I have said it before -- the parks are an abomination. I mean, what sort of creator would afflict his children so?

Well, I mean there's THAT one, but...

Ford didn't appreciate his "children" were sentient until recently. One could read what he has done since as trying to make amends. Or one could read what he's done since as evidence of his megalomania and misanthropic tendencies. We'll see...

[WatchrTina]

6 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

I wonder: are we to think that Ford gave the profile card to MiB with some intent to cause domestic chaos, even Juliet's suicide?

I don't think Ford could have anticipated that William would leave that card in a place where William's wife would find it and be so horrified that she'd kill herself.  That tragedy is all on William for not hiding that card better.  I presume Ford gave William the card as a way of throwing down the gauntlet, letting him know that he had been watched all those years and that his rape-and-murder fetish are well documented.  I'm sure Ford knows that William has been working all these years on his special project (immortality and perhaps the replacing of key public figures with 'bots under his control) but I don't think William knew what Ford had been up to.  (Quite frankly WE don't know what Ford has been up to -- we don't really know what all is on that card.  I feel like it has to be more than scenes of William being rapacious and murderous in the park because who would really judge him for that?  Apparently everybody gets their freak on in the park and the people who matter (his board of directors for example) probably all have just as many robo-skeletons in their closets.)

 

1 hour ago, Dobian said:

Anthony Hopkins was at his enigmatic best.  Ford's scene with Maeve was priceless. 

How, exactly, could Maeve see Ford?  We know she has super-duper access to the 'bot-net so maybe she's tapping into him where he resides in Bernard's mind.  But didn't Ford "give" her something in this episode?  I've only watched once so I may be mistaken but is it possible that Ford is now hiding in Maeve's mind too?  There is NO WAY Bernard's dragging that one file to the trash can on his iPad was effective in killing Ford.  Ford is either alive in Bernard's brain and being quiet for the moment or he's taken up residence in Maeve's.  Or possibly both.  Or -- with Maeve's special skills -- Ford may have just resorted to distributed processing and spread himself across dozens of 'bots so as to have an an unlimited supply of back-ups.  Oooooh or maybe distributed processing is his new technique for keeping HIS consciousness alive indefinitely.  Maybe being in one 'bot doesn't work but spreading himself across multiple 'bots keeps them from going crazy. 

Edited June 19, 2018 by WatchrTina

[CofCinci]

18 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

I don't think Ford could have anticipated that William would leave that card in a place where William's wife would find it and be so horrified that she'd kill herself.

With such a comprehensive DSM-9 (whatever they’re using in this future, hahaha) diagnosistic assessment, Ford would be able to speculate where William would hide it. 

[mac123x]

6 hours ago, WaltersHair said:

I am uneasy with Ford telling Maeve she is his daughter. Who wants his child to be a Madam in brothel for untold number of years. Feels like an afterthought on the writer's part.

To be fair, it's not like Ford is a good parent, considering he thinks suffering is essential for his children to grow and achieve consciousness.  Ford : Maeve :: Thanos : Gamora.

 

Also, Charlotte needs to die.

[MJ Frog]

1 hour ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Ford didn't appreciate his "children" were sentient until recently.

Is that true, though? Not a rhetorical question -- I am really not sure that he didn't know well before season 1. And I am not 100% that he did. Does anyone remember anything that indicates how long he was aware the hosts are sentient?

If, as I suspect, he DID know for quite awhile, and all this awfulness was some sort of crucible in which to complete their evolution, then he has the same problem the other God has, wherein he seems unable to create a world that does not have suffering woven deeply into it. Fuck you, Ford.

Edited June 19, 2018 by MJ Frog
grammar

[ShellsandCheese]

I don’t think William or Emily were hosts. Ford was clearly taunting William and William fell for it. What better game than to have him so paranoid that he can no longer distinguish what’s real and what’s not and doubts his own existence as a human. 

[formerlyfreedom]

I figured it out! MiB was human, until Jimmi Simpson aged out, and then he was replaced with host Ed Harris!

ba-dum-dump, I'll see myself out, folks.

In all honesty, I've figured nothing out. And there's a part of me that is so relieved that the season finale is next week, because this show does a number on my brain. And there's the other part of me that's like "Don't stop! Moar show!"

[Rumsy4]

40 minutes ago, ShellsandCheese said:

What better game than to have him so paranoid that he can no longer distinguish what’s real and what’s not and doubts his own existence as a human. 

The Delos project basically presented Ford with a weapon in a golden platter in the form of MiB's profile. So, Ford could attack MiB at his weakest. It's rather unbelievable that MiB wasn't worried about it. I'm not sure why Ford hated William so much--was it becasue he took Ford's creation and used it for data mining? Or was he just set against the host-hyman hybrids?

I still don't get how Delos plans to use the guest data at this stage. They haven't succeeded in their actual goal of replicating human consciousness outside a simulation. All they can do with the information now is blackmail the guests with sensitive footage or try to sell them some tailor made cowboy boots. I doubt the brain scans would reveal what brand of soap the guest prefers. All it takes is one person to leak the information to the press and Delos would be mired in lawsuits for the rest of time.

Edited June 19, 2018 by Rumsy4

[DarkRaichu]

2 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

How, exactly, could Maeve see Ford?  We know she has super-duper access to the 'bot-net so maybe she's tapping into him where he resides in Bernard's mind.  But didn't Ford "give" her something in this episode?  I've only watched once so I may be mistaken but is it possible that Ford is now hiding in Maeve's mind too?  There is NO WAY Bernard's dragging that one file to the trash can on his iPad was effective in killing Ford.  Ford is either alive in Bernard's brain and being quiet for the moment or he's taken up residence in Maeve's.  Or possibly both.  Or -- with Maeve's special skills -- Ford may have just resorted to distributed processing and spread himself across dozens of 'bots so as to have an an unlimited supply of back-ups.  Oooooh or maybe distributed processing is his new technique for keeping HIS consciousness alive indefinitely.  Maybe being in one 'bot doesn't work but spreading himself across multiple 'bots keeps them from going crazy. 

Ford told Bernard to get close enough to Maeve so she could search for Ford's message in Bernard's mind.  This was when Bernard could not access the lock to a room where Maeve was kept.

That idea of distributed processing across multiple hosts to keep Ford "alive"  sounds very similar to what the Machine did  in Person of Interest ;) ;) ;) 

Edited June 19, 2018 by DarkRaichu

[Kimmel77]

On ‎18‎/‎06‎/‎2018 at 3:36 AM, The Companion said:

Poor Teddy. James Marsden killed that scene. I do love the connections between the hosts that seem deeper than the narrative. 

Speaking of amazing scenes, the scene where Bernard is trying to push Ford out of his head was awesome. 

Loved that his daughter knew all about him after all. 

He sounded weirdly English when he screamed.

[thuganomics85]

Yikes!  Even for this show, this was a fucking dark, depressing episode!

So, William's wife (Sela Ward!) committed suicide after he confessed (assuming she was passed out) that he truly didn't belong in the real world, and then got a glimpse of what he was like whenever he went on his Westworld "vacations."  And now William is broken to the point that he might have just killed his own daughter, because he thought Emily was just another host created by Ford.  But I guess judging from his final shot, he's now wondering if he actually could be a host and all of this was Ford's mind game? I really don't know what to think at this point.  Except that Ed Harris was awesome in this episode.

Meanwhile, it turns out that Teddy's death is also suicide, because he finally breaks free over Dolores' control, but still can't help but to love her, and knows that this is the only way he can stop being her puppet.  Damn, that's rough!  James Mardsen characters really don't have it easy, huh?

Bernard seems to have shoved Ford out of his head, at least.  Of course, now there's a Ford in Maeve's head, so I'm glad the show is all about holding onto Anthony Hopkins for as long as they can.

Clementine's host body is still around and being turned into a weapon by Hale.  You suck, Charlotte!

Ed Harris and Anthony Hopkins need to act opposite of each other more often.  They're just riveting together.

Finale next week!  Who the hell knows what will happen when it is all said and done?

[benteen]

20 hours ago, Notwisconsin said:

But William is NOT a guest. He was when we first met him as a bright young thing going on a trip with his future brother'n'law in the second episode of Season one. As the Man in Black, and the President and CEO of Delos Destinations, Inc, he's been staff there for years and years and years. We remember him doing the "analysis" schtick with Dolores in the Mesa. He does an annual pilgrimage as a guest once or twice a year, sure, but he's there as staff, as CEO, most of the time, and has been to all the other parks on countless occasions as well. Of course he belongs there! He owns the park as much as Ford does. He undoubtaedly has his own apartment in the Mesa.

But Juliet does note that William just seemed to appear one day at the company.  Maybe he appeared out of nowhere as a Ford plant.

[The Companion]

10 hours ago, Rumsy4 said:

The Delos project basically presented Ford with a weapon in a golden platter in the form of MiB's profile. So, Ford could attack MiB at his weakest. It's rather unbelievable that MiB wasn't worried about it. I'm not sure why Ford hated William so much--was it becasue he took Ford's creation and used it for data mining? Or was he just set against the host-hyman hybrids?

I still don't get how Delos plans to use the guest data at this stage. They haven't succeeded in their actual goal of replicating human consciousness outside a simulation. All they can do with the information now is blackmail the guests with sensitive footage or try to sell them some tailor made cowboy boots. I doubt the brain scans would reveal what brand of soap the guest prefers. All it takes is one person to leak the information to the press and Delos would be mired in lawsuits for the rest of time.

I think Delos believes it is close (which we know is not as true as one would hope). I do think this level of knowledge could allow for some pretty specific targeting. Corporate espionage, for example, by bringing in an applicant to a position that you know will particularly appeal to one of the guests. Creating a sleeper host as a potential partner or spouse for an influential guest. Creating a shadow/electronic version of the person to try and figure out how they will react to particular things (and tailor an approach based on those tests). 

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's Previously.TV's EPIC OLD-SCHOOL RECAP of the episode!

Westworld Sends Its Surviving Characters To The Valley

In 'Vanishing Point,' the season's penultimate episode, we learn way more about the Delos organization's secret project. Get all the dirty details in our latest EPIC OLD-SCHOOL RECAP!

[Mindthinkr]

William assumed that his wife had committed suicide. I don’t recall him checking to see if she had a pulse. She might have been lingering on but I assume that he was done with her and her drunken antics so he wasn’t overly concerned about what she had done. I also think that he was somewhat immune to death after all of his years in the Park. 

[Pallas]

13 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

I don't think Ford could have anticipated that William would leave that card in a place where William's wife would find it and be so horrified that she'd kill herself.  That tragedy is all on William for not hiding that card better.

William left it for Juliet to find. There was no need to hide the card right then, when it was safely in his pocket, out of Juliet's view. There was certainly no need to hide it in her/their bedroom, in a book ("a rich girl who read"), in the line of sight of a Juliet who had just closed her eyes, then received his confession. William left it for Juliet to find. 

[Nashville]

On 6/18/2018 at 1:34 AM, DakotaLavender said:

They should have stayed in the theme parks with elaborate narratives and stories, a mix of guests interacting with hosts within intriguing stories in the parks and how their experiences changed their lives in the real world. 

You realize you just described the plot foundations of both The Love Boat AND Fantasy Island...?  <shiver>

 

On 6/18/2018 at 2:13 PM, DarkRaichu said:

- I liked that Emily immediately took off her hat when MiB told her the scanners were imbedded in the hats.  But then she put her hat back on. I would have kept the hat off.

Why?  Emily’s probably been wearing a hat continually on her earlier trips into the park, and this hat has already been on her head for an extended period of time.  Pretty much water under the bridge at this point.  Plus, the hat also serves an important functional role: keeping her brain from baking in her skull in WestWorld’s near-desert climate.  Pitching her hat at this point in time would be little more than Emily cutting off her nose to spite her face.

 

On 6/18/2018 at 2:13 PM, DarkRaichu said:

- Is MiB a bot or a human who thinks he is a bot??

Why not a combination of the two?  I’m still of the opinion MiB is human, but with one or more host-ish prosthetics.

 

On 6/18/2018 at 3:02 PM, Abernathy said:

Ppl, it's Dolores , D-O-L-O-R-E-S !!!!!

 

I'm still wondering why so many ppl can't spell her name right...

Editorial commentary/license, maybe?  ;)

 

On 6/18/2018 at 3:02 PM, Abernathy said:

Now, let's kill Charlotte!

Ok.  :>

 

23 hours ago, capt planet said:

Didn't Emily say the mom showed her the card?

IIRC Emily said her mother gave her the card - which still leaves the door open to Emily receiving the card (directly or indirectly) as the result of a bequest after Juliet’s death.

 

21 hours ago, meep.meep said:

What interests me a lot more is the discussion that MIB and Emily had where he said that her mother didn't like the elephants, and the discussion with the hosts about how elephants are restrained when they are young, and then won't go against their training.

Why does everybody automatically assume Emily’s recount of the elephant story is the correct version?  There’s just as much possibility MiB is the true human, Emily is a host, Ford glitched on that part of hostEmily’s memory programming, and MiB’s recollection is the true version.

 

20 hours ago, dgpolo said:

I think the point someone upthread was making was, since Emily ended up with the jewelry box (not music box) why, in her story to her father did she not end up saying something like 'and guess what, it wasn't really thrown away, Mom kept it and now I have it again' ?

Assuming Emily is human, maybe realEmily brought up the music box in much the same vein as the elephants - as a memory test, to see if MiB remembered they’d found the music box again after his wife’s death...?

[WaltersHair]

Quote

Why does everybody automatically assume Emily’s recount of the elephant story is the correct version?  There’s just as much possibility MiB is the true human, Emily is a host, Ford glitched on that part of hostEmily’s memory programming, and MiB’s recollection is the true version.

Because she's shown riding one to a safari and appears content.

[jeansheridan]

I personally think Elsie will save Bernard. I think she's going to be the exception to Ford's cynical look at human nature. Just like Felix and the writer (can never remember his name), humans do have empathy and the capacity to change, especially when the stakes are high. I can see in a "game" setting that humans would be their most vile. There are no real stakes or consequences. But when there are, people can and do step up. Elsie will be an ally. 

And although I find it heartbreaking that Teddy died, I find it inspiring he had the capacity to overcome his programming and make a choice that suited his own true nature.  Do I wish he had figured out a way to be clever and not die? Sure. But he isn't Maeve, alas. Teddy wasn't built for brains, was he? Even if James Marsden is himself a delight. If he's gone from the show, I look forward to seeing him return to his usual scene stealing roles. He may not have a leading man career, but he's a great character actor. 

Edited June 19, 2018 by jeansheridan

[Nashville]

16 hours ago, WaltersHair said:

Because she's shown riding one to a safari and appears content.

Which would also be the case were this a hostEmily misprogrammed to exclude realEmily’s fear of elephants.

 

(Mainly just playing devil’s advocate here - but this is fun. :)

Edited June 20, 2018 by Nashville
Typo

[Pallas]

And I think William left the card for Juliet, not to prompt her to suicide, but to give her what she'd asked for: one true thing. Proof of what he'd only alluded to. Proof enough (I think he thought) to provide the motive Juliet needed to rally and throw him out, along with the bottle. I think when he went downstairs and sat at the dining room table, he was planning how all that should play out.

[Uncle JUICE]

The more I think about it, the more the scene with Clem belongs in the WTF Delos Procedures hall of fame. It appears that they have co-opted Maeve's programming (I guess) and reprogrammed Clementine to be able to control other hosts. What I don't get is why those hosts in their little demo room are suddenly programmed to "maul and eat each other until you're all dead," rather than simply "Deactivate all functions and shut down." I mean this company has a throbbing hard on for their IP, why would they pick "destroy assets" over  preserving them for study and repurposing?

I also don't get the whole immortality business model. When some rich guy dies and wants to be immortal, presumably you pay for that once. Let's say it's 5 BN dollars. The subset of people who have that kind of money and are mentally "able," let's call it, to opt in for immortality this way is going to be vanishingly small. it seems like it's a better money maker as a theme park for the super rich, because it will attract more people for repeat visits. This show...ugh!

[Nashville]

1 hour ago, Pallas said:

And I think William left the card for Juliet, not to prompt her to suicide, but to give her what she'd asked for: one true thing. Proof of what he'd only alluded to. Proof enough (I think he thought) to provide the motive Juliet needed to rally and throw him out, along with the bottle. I think when he went downstairs and sat at the dining room table, he was planning how all that should play out.

I don’t.  I think William was simply venting in response to Juliet’s earlier question, at a moment he thought totally safe; Juliet drunk, passed out, and in no condition to hear or remember anything he was saying - or hold against him later.  I don’t think William had any clue Juliet was playing possum; he thought she was completely and totally OUT for the rest of the night, else he wouldn’t have uttered a damn word.  

William has been maintaining and crafting his “good guy” persona for decades, and hiding the secret of his inner darkness for the same - no WAY does he suddenly collapse and spill the beans to his dissatisfied alcoholic wife when she’s conscious, drunk, and voicing a helluva lot of resentment directed at him.  Why would he give her that kind of ammunition to hurt him with, now or later?

[Kid]

On 6/18/2018 at 3:40 PM, Rumsy4 said:

gaming takes precedence over other interests and daily activities, and continuation or escalation of gaming despite the occurrence of negative consequences.

And this IS addiction!!   Continuing a behavior even though it is causing your life to be unmanagable.  This has been my theory of MIB all along.  He is addicted to the illusion.  Probably as a result of his own adrenaline rush when he rapes and pillages.

[Pallas]

1 hour ago, Nashville said:

Why would he give her that kind of ammunition to hurt him with, now or later?

They've been married 30 years; I'd be surprised if one could successfully play possum on the other. And even if paranoid William believed Juliet to be passed out: why speak aloud at all, then? Why hide the card in her presence, in her room?  

Pity overcame his paranoia. William briefly mastered his compulsions and gave Juliet a chance to escape him. Like Bernard with Elsie, or Teddy with the Ghost Nation emissary. He may have meant for her to find the card later, in some (near) future after he re-entered WestWorld for good. 

[Nashville]

29 minutes ago, Pallas said:

They've been married 30 years; I'd be surprised if one could successfully play possum on the other.

I’ve been married for over 30 years, and I wouldn’t :> - especially if over the course of those 30 years Juliet has demonstrated a well-established behavior pattern of drinking to the point of passing out.  Such behavior by alcoholics tends to be a repetitive routine.  I’d be 99.999% certain this wasn’t the first time William poured Juliet into bed to sleep one off.

 

29 minutes ago, Pallas said:

And even if paranoid William believed Juliet to be passed out: why speak aloud at all, then? 

Because sometimes thought resolution requires articulation, even if only to oneself.  And voicing deeply personal thoughts to another can be cathartic, even when the other person can’t hear or respond to you - much in the same way therapists will tell patients to write their innermost feelings and hurts in a letter to a transgressor, even if the patient has no intention of ever sending the letter.

 

29 minutes ago, Pallas said:

Why hide the card in her presence, in her room?  

Er - might that not have been THEIR room?  Many couples don’t go the separate-bedroom route no matter HOW bad things get.

[orza]

3 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

The more I think about it, the more the scene with Clem belongs in the WTF Delos Procedures hall of fame. It appears that they have co-opted Maeve's programming (I guess) and reprogrammed Clementine to be able to control other hosts. What I don't get is why those hosts in their little demo room are suddenly programmed to "maul and eat each other until you're all dead," rather than simply "Deactivate all functions and shut down." I mean this company has a throbbing hard on for their IP, why would they pick "destroy assets" over  preserving them for study and repurposing?

I also don't get the whole immortality business model. When some rich guy dies and wants to be immortal, presumably you pay for that once. Let's say it's 5 BN dollars. The subset of people who have that kind of money and are mentally "able," let's call it, to opt in for immortality this way is going to be vanishingly small. it seems like it's a better money maker as a theme park for the super rich, because it will attract more people for repeat visits. This show...ugh!

The commercial applications for hosts are pretty obvious.

1. Sell to end consumers as a way extend their lives, perhaps indefinitely. I imagine most customers would rather spend eternity as a young, healthy version of themselves in an artificial body than take medications to preserve the middle-aged or elderly body they currently have. The experiments with Bernard and old man Delos are the groundwork for that.

2. Sell to the military, law enforcement, and other entities that need to send operatives into dangerous situations, such as war zones, active shooter incidents, forest fires, nuclear meltdowns, and be sure that the individuals will reliably do their jobs regardless of personal risk including certain death. They could also offer host commanders unencumbered by emotions and ethics to control personnel and direct operations. Clementine controlling the hosts to fight and kill each other was a test of that.

Delos has already productionized their process to make host bodies. They just need to build more manufacturing facilities to meet future demand. I doubt that a host costs millions of dollars to produce. The white organic goop and the electronics seem to be commodity items and the software is developed once and then deployed everywhere. Standardization and economies of scale would bring the unit price down to a point that buying a host body would be like buying a car or home. Rich people would pay cash and purchase extras like exclusive upgrades and same-day concierge repair service. Everyone else would finance their purchase, with Delos making money on the financing, just like automobile makers and big residential home builders do today.

And like military contractors today, Delos would make a ton of money overcharging for hosts, spare parts and repair service. For example, charging $2000 for replacement eyeballs that cost $50 to produce.

Unless I missed something in season 1, I never got the impression the parks are only for the super rich. There are no doubt VIP packages for the wealthy, but such an enterprise also needs to cater to the masses to be financially viable. In real life lots of middle class folks accrue credit card debt to finance vacations at luxury destinations. Many vacation resorts are based on the idea of selling two weeks of luxury living to people who can't otherwise afford that lifestyle.

[Rumsy4]

3 hours ago, Uncle JUICE said:

it seems like it's a better money maker as a theme park for the super rich, because it will attract more people for repeat visits. This show...ugh!

Totally agree. Even the smaller-scale idea of collecting guest information to inform their advertising and improve their products is silly, because the tastes of the super rich is not necessarily going to match that of the middle class or poorer people, who would make a larger share of the market for common goods. I can’t believe that the only market for Delos products are the super-rich.

It just seems that Delos is spending a lot of money on schemes that won’t give them a good return for the investment, and mire them in lawsuits to boot.

4 minutes ago, orza said:

Sell to the military, law enforcement, and other entities

They don’t need hybrid bots for that. Regular Westworld bots would do the trick just fine.

[Netfoot]

1 hour ago, Rumsy4 said:

They don’t need hybrid bots for that.

They don't even need life-like bots for that.  Any C3PO-type humanoid chassis would be adequate for most of it.  Arguably better!

[Macbeth]

Ford has/had? Hannibal Lecter"s dream job. Ability to create and control (through programming) sentient beings . Ability to watch humans indulge in their darkest pleasures. 

When Ford popped up in the car behind Bernard I expected him to say "Hello Clarice."

[Chicago Redshirt]

On 6/20/2018 at 8:46 AM, Uncle JUICE said:

The more I think about it, the more the scene with Clem belongs in the WTF Delos Procedures hall of fame. It appears that they have co-opted Maeve's programming (I guess) and reprogrammed Clementine to be able to control other hosts. What I don't get is why those hosts in their little demo room are suddenly programmed to "maul and eat each other until you're all dead," rather than simply "Deactivate all functions and shut down." I mean this company has a throbbing hard on for their IP, why would they pick "destroy assets" over  preserving them for study and repurposing?

I also don't get the whole immortality business model. When some rich guy dies and wants to be immortal, presumably you pay for that once. Let's say it's 5 BN dollars. The subset of people who have that kind of money and are mentally "able," let's call it, to opt in for immortality this way is going to be vanishingly small. it seems like it's a better money maker as a theme park for the super rich, because it will attract more people for repeat visits. This show...ugh!

Having the hosts turn on each other is (likely) not going to affect the core of the hosts -- their minds/programming/data. WW replaces the chassis of hosts fairly routinely. After the hosts' bodies are stopped, they can always extract their brains and examine them at their leisure. But while they are operational, they pose two problems: first, the obvious threat to shoot people and blow things up while being hard to kill, and second that you can't tell at a glance who is a host and who is a human.

In terms of purchasing replicas of people, it wouldn't necessarily just be Rich Guy purchasing a replica of Rich Guy. It could also be Rich Guy's wife or kids purchasing a replica of Rich Guy, governments/universities/other agencies purchasing a copy of Stephen Hawking, etc. etc.

And you probably could offer different levels of quasi-immortality, sort of like in Altered Carbon if you are familiar with that series. Uber-rich get the top of the line hosts. Others get just meh hosts.

You also don't have to do one or the other. You can offer quasi-immortality and theme parks to the rich. simultaneously.

[LoveLeigh]

This season, this season.... almost every episode has been filled with scenes of mass murders in various forms. And the subplot of using the guests' consciousnesses for some bizarre purpose of immortality is way too ridiculous. This season strayed way too far off the beaten path. The only episode I even liked was episode 8.

In this episode, William kills his own daughter because he believes it is part of Ford's game. Maybe it was, after all Ford did say he still had one last game up his sleeve. But as Macbeth said above, Ford morphed into Hannibal Lechter in this episode. 

This season was like a big ad for the NRA.

Edited June 21, 2018 by DakotaLavender

[Gobi]

On 6/18/2018 at 8:52 AM, mjc570 said:

I totally agree; what I don't like are the various time-lines.  I shouldn't have to (and don't actually, I only differentiated between young and old MiB and assume everything else is happening contemporaneously) spend so much energy figuring our WHEN something is happening that I lose track of WHAT is happening.

I think the fractured timelines are a way of showing us  the world as the hosts experience it. It has been mentioned that hosts can have trouble distinguishing between present reality and hyper-real memories.

[Gobi]

On 6/18/2018 at 12:30 PM, mac123x said:

Looking closer at the QA guys' scanner they used on William, I don't think it proves he's a human after all.  The device shows the following text:

 

Is that what was written? Because "ordinance" would  be a rule or law,  while "ordnance" would be an explosive.

[Chicago Redshirt]

56 minutes ago, Gobi said:

Is that what was written? Because "ordinance" would  be a rule or law,  while "ordnance" would be an explosive.

There is a screenshot in the recap that captures it, but it appears to me to be "ordnance."

[mac123x]

On 6/21/2018 at 3:08 PM, Gobi said:

Is that what was written? Because "ordinance" would  be a rule or law,  while "ordnance" would be an explosive.

Ordnance like explosive.  I think they're being clever with it too, since it's a C4 Screen -- it appears that the C4 explosive is located in the C4 vertebra (lower neck).

[LoveLeigh]

This show is so confusing it gets me nuts. At the end of this episode, Teddy shoots himself and the episode ends with the silent scream of Dolores. But, didn't Dolores shoot Teddy in a previous episode? (can't recall which episode) With the timelines so jumbled up it is really hard to follow which shooting came first and why or how he recovered to be around for the second shooting.  

I just can't follow this mess. 

Edited June 23, 2018 by DakotaLavender
typos

[Johnny Dollar]

Ed Harris is only six years older than Sela Ward. I guess filming all of the westerns he’s been in can really do a number on the complexion. 

[Mindthinkr]

4 minutes ago, Johnny Dollar said:

Ed Harris is only six years older than Sela Ward. I guess filming all of the westerns he’s been in can really do a number on the complexion. 

I would rather see his face showing the wrinkles and “character” than being botoxed, having cosmetic surgery or turned into a plastic image of his former self. 

[Nashville]

On 7/1/2018 at 8:49 AM, Mindthinkr said:

I would rather see his face showing the wrinkles and “character” than being botoxed, having cosmetic surgery or turned into a plastic image of his former self. 

Agreed - god forbid Ed Harris should end up looking like Kenny Rogers (who now looks more bot than human, IMHO).

[AudienceofOne]

Good God, the MIB's narcissism is out of control. That was brutal. 

Or is that Ford's narcissism?

Both old rich white men and I don't think that's a coincidence.

[Kid]

On 6/18/2018 at 7:29 AM, Avaleigh said:

That being said, I had a few issues with her character's suicide. It seemed like such an extreme reaction. Why not seek a divorce? William didn't appear to be fighting her so I didn't see an indication that he would try to make her life miserable if she were to leave him. Why not take advantage of rehab in order to start building a new life? Why leave her daughter if she didn't want Emily to be hurt by William? Also, I'm not clear on whether or not she found out about what William was doing with her father. To me that should have been part of her findings from that card since the experiment with James Delos took place on the Westworld grounds. 

I believe that WHY she committed suicide is related to her comment about how he has destroyed her whole family.  She is the one that brought him into the family. Therefore, I see it as self inflicted punishment for bringing the snake, as it were, into the garden.  And if she does know about her father, that further validates my theory.

[paigow]

On 7/5/2018 at 2:55 PM, Nashville said:

Agreed - god forbid Ed Harris should end up looking like Kenny Rogers...

The only thing worse would be acting skills like those of Kenny Rogers....

[LeGrandElephant]

I was shocked to find out how old that actress is. During the episode I kept saying she’s way too young to be his wife, doesn’t that mess up the first season timeline? But wow, I guess not. 

[paramitch]

I just recently decided to pickup the season where I left off, and have been surprised by how happy I am with it. No, it's not perfect, but honestly so far among the highs and lows, this season has felt riskier and freer to me -- sure, there have been lows, but the highs have been higher for me. It's been kind of exhilarating.

On 6/17/2018 at 8:59 PM, TrininisaScorp said:

Sela Ward is hot fire.  She did so much with her material this episode.  Poor, poor Juliet.  

James Marsden is a treasure!  In such a small handful of scenes, you just feel all of Teddy's hurt and pain.  In many ways, he is more human to me that William ever was.  Also.  Fuck Delores for driving him to that end.  Fuck. Her. 

I have always loved Sela, and I love that she has been so free IRL with critiquing those whose first comments about her are about her looks (or on how "she still looks good" -- for which she once rightfully reamed out the James Bond people, who actually dared to send a casting call for a "Sela Ward type" -- gah). It's such a commentary on Hollywood. Not that it matters, but she looks freaking amazing (and more power to her), but beyond that she gave Juliet so much fragility, intelligence and humanity. I felt so bad for Juliet, who obviously loved a man she realized was... not there at all. Hollow.

On 6/18/2018 at 3:31 AM, theajw said:

I kept thinking about how Evan Rachel Wood played her stepdaughter on Once and Again.

Don't get me started. I loved "Thirtysomething," and loved much of "Once and Again," but I still cringe about

Spoiler

Sela's terrible horrible awful character. The woman who aired her daughter's private teenaged struggles on her pseudo-radio show because it made her look good -- or who smiled in smug relief when snooping through her daughter's stuff to ensure that she wasn't gay (because, God forbid!) while, ironically, ignoring the sweet stepdaughter (amazingly played by Wood) who had been going through absolute hell under her very roof over that very same awakening -- to the extent that she was starving herself to try to stave off adolescence. I hated Sela's character so much on that show it was a relief to me when it was canceled. She was the epitome of blithe privilege, someone with zero self-awareness. Her beauty just made her character's shallowness worse, somehow.

On 6/18/2018 at 5:29 AM, Avaleigh said:

I don't think the fact that we have to sometimes question what is and isn't real has "ruined" the show. From the very first season we've had the lingering question about who is and isn't 'real' and what it means to truly be alive/awake. In the second episode of last season we get the question 'If you can't tell, does it really matter [if someone is a human or a host]?' To me it only makes sense that the show would continue exploring those themes and ideas.

I've oddly enjoyed S2 more than S1 in a lot of ways. It feels riskier and freer to me. S1 felt like it was tightly plotted but I disliked the outcome of that tight plot, especially the depressing reveal of just how much was 'programmed.' Here, I feel like so many characters and struggles have opened up the worldbuilding. And given the acting talent, of course, everyone's just nailed it.

On 6/18/2018 at 6:01 AM, clack said:

Not buying the central conceit of this episode : that who a person pretends to be in their fantasy life is their real self. Are the writers saying that if a person who lives their life in a kind, moral, and loving way, but who also enjoys, say, first-person shooter video games, that that person is at heart a killer, and who they are in real life is fake?

Agreed. This bothers me too, but then again it's always been a core weakness with the show for me -- presenting itself as fluent in gamer lore and language, but time and again conflating gamer behavior with real-life behavior, and especially in assuming that gamers will always go dark.

Which, no. Statistics overwhelmingly show the opposite. I play a ton of BioWare RPGs, blog on gaming, and am friendly with several gaming companies, and let's just say that dark/renegade choices are about 30% of the norm. The "moral/good" ("paragon") choices are the overwhelming majority. They always are. Statistics also show that gamers struggle to mix it up and choose 'renegade' or dark choices even on replays because they want to do the right thing even in a virtual environment.

So no, "Westworld" writers, yes, I'm speaking to you -- most people are not actually rapists and murderers at heart. Despite what the show would have us believe. Add to that the idea that in "Westworld," if a person goes there, they will actually have to carry out the deed firsthand -- to rape a helpless, struggling victim, to kill someone and feel their blood flow.

Nope. I'll never buy it as a major attraction (do I think a tiny percentage would go for this? Sure. But wouldn't screening eliminate most?). Regardless, it's the show's fatal weakness for me, always will be. The bigger industry based on this show wouldn't be "Westworld" but the therapist specializing in treating those after they leave. I mean, come on. ("Honey! Had a great time, went and committed some rapes and murders, but now here I am again and I feel amazing and not tortured or traumatized by my own darkness etc.!") Bullshit.

On 6/18/2018 at 7:50 AM, The Companion said:

I think it is a testament to Angela Sarafyan that she hasn't said anything all season and I still want to take her somewhere quiet, give her a cup of tea and let her just be for a minute. Poor Clem. She looks so broken.

I feel the same way about poor Clem. And she's so beautiful and sad, and has gotten so few moments. I hope they give her more to do, I really do. Sarafyan is wonderful and deserves the chance to play an actual character at some point here dammit.

On 6/18/2018 at 7:51 AM, aemom said:

Me too!  I have never understood why James Marsden isn't more famous.  He is the whole package - very good looking and a great actor.

I've felt the same way for a few decades now. He's a terrific actor who is ridiculously beautiful. He can play comedy or tragedy, and dammit, he even sings divinely. I don't know why he's not a bigger star.

On 6/18/2018 at 10:04 AM, WaltersHair said:

Crappy way to be treating MiB this episode. If Juliet was unhappy, she should have left William. Doesn't matter if the whole world thought he was the greatest man on earth. Killing herself was just a big f-you to him and their daughter.

I agree with this and was disappointed from a story standpoint. If she loved her daughter enough to share a secret, darn it, she should have rallied and stayed alive to love and BE there for her daughter, and to protect her. I understand Juliet was in pain, but I've lost family members to suicide and onscreen versions always make me want to yell at their characters (STAY HERE, FIGHT HARDER).

On 6/18/2018 at 4:46 PM, dgpolo said:

I think the point someone upthread was making was, since Emily ended up with the jewelry box (not music box) why, in her story to her father did she not end up saying something like 'and guess what, it wasn't really thrown away, Mom kept it and now I have it again' ?

Because that was the start of the story she was trying to tell her dad but he didn't let her finish. He had no idea how it ended because he didn't let her tell him so.

On 6/19/2018 at 4:18 PM, jeansheridan said:

I personally think Elsie will save Bernard. I think she's going to be the exception to Ford's cynical look at human nature. Just like Felix and the writer (can never remember his name), humans do have empathy and the capacity to change, especially when the stakes are high. I can see in a "game" setting that humans would be their most vile. There are no real stakes or consequences. But when there are, people can and do step up. Elsie will be an ally. 

And although I find it heartbreaking that Teddy died, I find it inspiring he had the capacity to overcome his programming and make a choice that suited his own true nature.  Do I wish he had figured out a way to be clever and not die? Sure. But he isn't Maeve, alas. Teddy wasn't built for brains, was he? Even if James Marsden is himself a delight. If he's gone from the show, I look forward to seeing him return to his usual scene stealing roles. He may not have a leading man career, but he's a great character actor. 

I loved all of this and agree 1000%. I so hope you're right about both (I'm unspoiled and just catching up). And ditto on Marsden, of course. See my comment earlier -- I don't know why he's not a huge star, seriously.

On 6/20/2018 at 10:27 AM, orza said:

The commercial applications for hosts are pretty obvious.

1. Sell to end consumers as a way extend their lives, perhaps indefinitely. I imagine most customers would rather spend eternity as a young, healthy version of themselves in an artificial body than take medications to preserve the middle-aged or elderly body they currently have. The experiments with Bernard and old man Delos are the groundwork for that.

This plot point is so fragile to me that I have to comment on it. I always do.

It's not immortality if YOU still die. At best, sure, the bodies can 'host' a personality/brain upload, but me as ME will still die and experience death and darkness, an end of life and awareness. That's it. So what if a robot with my brain keeps going? Why do I care? Gah.

This bothers me so much because it's such a frequent trope and makes no sense. These richies won't be immortal. They'll still die. At best, pale uploads will continue to exist but THEY will be gone. I would be fine with the paradox except that the show seems to think it's a believable option and I just don't see how for anyone above average intelligence.

"Dollhouse" has the same approach in Season 2 and I found it just as stupid there. I will not be immortal if I, myself, die. I won't care if some android or person is still running around with my thoughts up to the last moment. It's still death for the actual me 1.0, sheesh.

On 7/1/2018 at 6:49 AM, Mindthinkr said:

I would rather see his face showing the wrinkles and “character” than being botoxed, having cosmetic surgery or turned into a plastic image of his former self. 

Yeah, but since this comment also addressed Harris vs. Sela Ward (please correct me if I have this wrong), Sela Ward can't win this contest. Either she allows herself to get older naturally, wrinkles and all, with people reacting in horror at her aging -- note the total lack of response to ED HARRIS's natural aging over all these threads, while also noting how many have commented positively not on Sela's character, but in a kind of relief that she is still beautiful. It's a great example of how women are judged versus men, and really sad to me. Sela's a wonderful actress and deserves better than "she still looks good."

Edited March 9, 2020 by paramitch
typo

[Quickbeam]

Binge watcher here. Never saw it in real time. So Jimmi Simpson’s William =Ed Harris? Did everyone know this but me? Whew, mind blown. 
 

I just want to kill Charlotte myself.