S03.E05: Pies

[Mittengirl]

Like sweet potato pie, hate pumpkin pie, and hell no to coffee in anything.   If I remember correctly, the texture of sweet potato pie (at least those I have had) isn’t as heavy as pumpkin pie.

[rhys]

I've never had sweet potato pie but I'd like to try it. I adore pumpkin pie but we add one more spice than the recipe indicates. Sweet story: one Thanksgiving, my son & grandson ( nephew) offered to make the pumpkin pie. I got everything they needed & placed on a tray. When they were finished they told me it was ready for the oven. I opted to put it in the oven. Some of the custard got on my finger so I licked it off. You know where this is going, right? It wasn't horrible--they had forgotten the sugar. Easy fix, we just dumped the custard from the pie shell back into the mixing bowl & they added the sugar.  Anyway, that has made for a nice Tday memory!

[Rinaldo]

Lovely story, @rhys, except I'm trying not to think about how your grandson is also your nephew.

[rhys]

Ha! My grandson is my son's nephew. 

[Toothbrush]

I love pumpkin pie, sweet potato pie, and coffee, so y'all go ahead & pass it all over my way. 

[AZChristian]

7 hours ago, Toothbrush said:

I love pumpkin pie, sweet potato pie, and coffee, so y'all go ahead & pass it all over my way. 

Table for two, please.

[Brookside]

I understand why Americans posting here don't like being attacked about American pies, but they are perceived by Brits as being overly sweet compared to most British pies.

By the same token, British readers of the thread probably don't appreciate being bashed for our "traditional" recipes, whether a meat pie, Beef Wellington. or whatever.

In response to the question of not doing a top crust, here's a random Google finding for Classic American Pies, the majority of which have no top crust.

https://www.tasteofhome.com/collection/classic-american-pie-recipes/view-all/
 

[theatremouse]

The problem, to me (an American) is not being attacked about American pies, but rather that the way Paul seems to have defined "American pies" for the purpose of the brief for this episode is....not really what Americans would find to be especially American pies. It was a weird experience for me to watch because in general I believe him and Mary to be authorities on pretty much everything presented. So, for instance, when they say something is a traditional Spanish whatever, or an especially German somethingelse, etc and so on, I just buy it. I don't know it, but I assume they do. So then I see this episode with them talking about "American pies" but the rules are not things I find especially American. So it's jarring because now this previously trusted authority just seems plain wrong. It's a lot of cognitive dissonance for me, completely ignoring the issue of whether what he said about American pies were disparaging or not. It's sort of like if he held up a Matisse and said "I just really think Renaissance painting is rubbish". If I have a PhD in Renaissance art and love the stuff, sure I might be irked by that comment, but I'm more perplexed by it being said in relation to Matisse, because he's not a Renaissance guy. So I don't get to the point of being offended because I'm too busy wondering if this guy has any idea what he's talking about and if the thing he doesn't like is actually Matisse or Renaissance since he doesn't seem to understand that the latter does not describe the former.

[dleighg]

6 hours ago, theatremouse said:

The problem, to me (an American) is not being attacked about American pies, but rather than the way Paul seems to have defined "American pies" for the purpose of the brief for this episode is....not really what Americans would find to be especially American pies.

Just me thinks of that old jingle "Baseball, hot dogs, apple pie, and Chevrolet." If you asked 100 Americans what is a "classic American pie" I think 80 of them would say some kind of fruit pie (blueberry, blackberry, peach, and ESPECIALLY apple.  All of which are two crust, not particularly sweet. The rest might say pumpkin if they were thinking of something *particularly* American.

Edited August 7, 2018 by dleighg

[Kohola3]

Well put,   theatremouse and dheighg!  Totally agree with both of your postings.  It's not a "them against us" thing but the way that Paul made his comments that was disappointing.

[Rickster]

4 hours ago, dleighg said:

Just me thinks of that old jingle "Baseball, hot dogs, apple pie, and Chevrolet." If you asked 100 Americans what is a "classic American pie" I think 80 of them would say some kind of fruit pie (blueberry, blackberry, peach, and ESPECIALLY apple.  All of which are two crust, not particularly sweet. The rest might say pumpkin if they were thinking of something *particularly* American.

And I’m going to speculate that maybe what they were trying to communicate was a concept of type of pies that are considered uniquely American, since double crusted fruit pies are common in both Britain and the US.

[Eliza422]

3 hours ago, Kohola3 said:

Well put,   theatremouse and dheighg!  Totally agree with both of your postings.  It's not a "them against us" thing but the way that Paul made his comments that was disappointing.

Exactly. It was the level of insulting disparagement when talking about American pies that had never been used before when describing any other country's signature dishes. They've done some really out there things and never had the brief be "make it less gross".

[dubbel zout]

6 hours ago, dleighg said:

All of which are two crust

I must disagree. Two-crust fruit pies are very common, but so are crumble-top pies. IMO, what makes a pie "American" is it uses a standard pastry crust (what the French call a pâte brisée, i.e., uses butter/shortening/lard/other fat, has no egg yolk, and little to no sugar) and is baked in a pie tin, not a tart pan.

[Nysha]

2 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Two-crust fruit pies are very common, but so are crumble-top pies. IMO, what makes a pie "American" is it uses a standard pastry crust (what the French call a pâte brisée, i.e., uses butter/shortening/lard/other fat, has no egg yolk, and little to no sugar) and is baked in a pie tin, not a tart pan.

This! What Paul was describing & what they baked were not American pies, they were tarts, which aren't as popular as pies. I have no problem with the idea that "most" British people think American pies are too sweet. But the fact that the pies weren't traditional American pies to start with, along with the disparaging comments is what had me going "WTF, Paul".

[proserpina65]

17 hours ago, Brookside said:

In response to the question of not doing a top crust, here's a random Google finding for Classic American Pies, the majority of which have no top crust.

Actually the pies I saw seemed split about 50-50 between top crust/no top crust.  Most fruit pies here do have top crusts.

Oh, and I try not to be too critical of traditional British dishes but jellied eels and meat pies with barely cooked bacon are disgusting.  And my objection to the whole "American pies are sooooo sweet" thing is the fact that many British desserts are very sweet, even if their pies are less so.

Edited August 7, 2018 by proserpina65

[Brookside]

I'm feeling a little sad for the way our thread is going.  I think we all agree that we love the GBBO and its approach: the kindness of contestants to each other; its commitment to excellence; its lack of personal drama; its treating us to lambs, bunnies, and well endowed squirrels.  I think maybe we've got a bit off track (and I don't deny responsibility for engaging), but perhaps we could agree to disagree and go back to the appreciation of the show, contestants, and acceptance of cultural differences.

Edited August 12, 2018 by Brookside
Word order

[Mabinogia]

12 minutes ago, Brookside said:

its treating us to lambs, bunnies, and well endowed squirrels. 

especially well endowed squirrel. He's my favorite. lol I mean, the lambs and bunnies are cute, but that guy is impressive! hahahaha

I kind of love that they didn't realize it when they first edited the show. Or maybe they did and put it in there for fun. ;)

[Brookside]

4 minutes ago, Mabinogia said:

especially well endowed squirrel. He's my favorite. lol I mean, the lambs and bunnies are cute, but that guy is impressive! hahahaha

I kind of love that they didn't realize it when they first edited the show. Or maybe they did and put it in there for fun. ;)

Pretty sure someone knew what was being put out there!

[dahling]

When a show makes me want to throw a scone at the TV and say, "bugger off, Paul", I am glad I have a place to talk about it. 

[dleighg]

45 minutes ago, Brookside said:

Pretty sure someone knew what was being put out there!

if you are like me, and missed the squirrel, here you go!

[Mabinogia]

haha, love the title …"caution, may contain nuts" hahahahahaha

[kokapetl]

On 25/07/2018 at 7:54 PM, Kohola3 said:

I am guessing sweetened condensed. I have a very similar recipe from my aunt that that is what is used.

“Condensed Milk” in the UK refers to the sweetened Carnation/Nestle canned variety. Banoffee (banana & toffee) pie is a Scottish pie that calls for unopened cans of the stuff to be boiled into toffee. 

[Brookside]

On 8/8/2018 at 1:07 AM, kokapetl said:

“Condensed Milk” in the UK refers to the sweetened Carnation/Nestle canned variety. Banoffee (banana & toffee) pie is a Scottish pie that calls for unopened cans of the stuff to be boiled into toffee. 

To me, Banoffee Pie tastes as disgusting as it sounds.  But then, just the smell of bananas makes me gag.

 

"Credit for the pie's invention is claimed by Nigel Mackenzie and Ian Dowding, the owner and chef, respectively, of The Hungry Monk Restaurant in Jevington, East Sussex.[3] They claim to have developed the dessert in 1971 by amending an unreliable American recipe for "Blum’s Coffee Toffee Pie" with a soft toffee made by boiling an unopened can of condensed milk for several hours. After trying various changes including the addition of apple or mandarin orange, Mackenzie suggested banana and Dowding later said that "straight away we knew we had got it right". Mackenzie suggested the name "Banoffi Pie", and the dish proved so popular with their customers that they "couldn't take it off" the menu."

Edited August 12, 2018 by Brookside

[dleighg]

1 hour ago, kokapetl said:

Scottish pie that calls for unopened cans of the stuff to be boiled into toffee. 

Ah! Dulche de leche!

[Kohola3]

4 hours ago, kokapetl said:

...unopened cans of the stuff to be boiled into toffee. 

I would think boiling an upopened can would cause it to explode!

[chessiegal]

42 minutes ago, Kohola3 said:

I would think boiling an upopened can would cause it to explode!

Nope - you can boil cans of sweetened condensed milk and it turns into dulce de leche.

Here's one link:

Making dulce de leche in the can

ETA: I've seen Alton Brown do it on Good Eats and others on cooking shows.

Edited August 8, 2018 by chessiegal

[biakbiak]

On 8/8/2018 at 6:35 AM, chessiegal said:

Nope - you can boil cans of sweetened condensed milk and it turns into dulce de leche.

Yep so easy, so delicious.

[DHDancer]

45 minutes ago, biakbiak said:

Nope - you can boil cans of sweetened condensed milk and it turns into dulce de leche.

Or just buy it already made.  Expensive  but so is the time and energy in boiling for an hour or so.

[biakbiak]

3 minutes ago, DHDancer said:

Or just buy it already made.  Expensive  but so is the time and energy in boiling for an hour or so.

Maybe it’s because I have eaten so much of it but I can definitely tell the difference and prefer it freshly made. And it is most definitely cheaper since you don’t have to actually sit there and watch it costs no time and it costs pennies on my range to boil for an hour.

[carrps]

On 8/8/2018 at 3:07 AM, Brookside said:

Banoffi Pie tastes as disgusting as it sounds.

 

"Credit for the pie's invention is claimed by Nigel Mackenzie and Ian Dowding, the owner and chef, respectively, of The Hungry Monk Restaurant in Jevington, East Sussex.[3] They claim to have developed the dessert in 1971 by amending an unreliable American recipe for "Blum’s Coffee Toffee Pie" with a soft toffee made by boiling an unopened can of condensed milk for several hours. After trying various changes including the addition of apple or mandarin orange, Mackenzie suggested banana and Dowding later said that "straight away we knew we had got it right". Mackenzie suggested the name "Banoffi Pie", and the dish proved so popular with their customers that they "couldn't take it off" the menu."

Wonder if that "coffee toffee" is similar to the garnish on Blum's coffee crunch cake. It's not toffee, it's more like sponge candy. Crisp but very airy. I've had a version of the cake (Blum's no longer exists, but Valerie Confections makes an almost identical cake using the original recipe), and it's delicious. One that should be eaten in thin slices with a strong cup of coffee.

Why did they have to add fruit? Mandarin orange sounds gross in this context. Weird. But I love bananas in desserts, so I think I'd like Banoffi pie. But it sure looks horribly sweet!

[spaceghostess]

As a lover of all sorts of foods other people find disgusting--including the southern Italian preparations of kidneys, chicken livers, tripe, and dried cod on which I was raised--I had no issues with either the eel pie or meat pie concepts and would be happy to try them. As the ex-wife of a Englishman, I've visited the UK many times and eaten all sorts of things, including Cornish pasties in Cornwall, scones with real clotted cream and strawberries in Devon, and haggis in the Highlands. (liked it!) Sure, I get it that tastes vary, but it felt like Paul was talking out his ass a bit with the generalizations about American pies. A couple of posters mentioned banoffee, and that's the first thing that sprang to my mind while watching the episode, too. I mean, sweetened condensed milk plus bananas plus toffee is really sweet, and he seems to like it just fine. Also, those many meringue-based desserts that he and Mary Berry seem to so enjoy? C'mon, Hollywood. 

A good pie--whatever its origins-- is, to me, a not overly sweet one, and I've had plenty of traditional American ones that strike just the right balance. I love pecan pie,  which many people find too sweet, but I've had a couple of bakery ones that are just right. When I make it, I toast the pecans to the point that they'll *almost* get too dark during baking. I also use a savory crust, which balances out the sweetness beautifully.

I wonder if there's a perception of less sweeteness in British treats because many use spices and dried fruit? My ex's favorite thing is Dundee cake (Scottish), which I used to make him for his birthday. It's got lots of dried fruit in it and almonds on top. Most recipes I've seen used glace (similar to maraschino) cherries, but I've always refused to add them or candied peel, which many recipes also feature. I use regular zests--lemon and orange--a variety of dried fruits, and the nuts, of course. The thing is, it's a cake with plenty of sugar, plus the sweetness of the fruit--but the way the flavors balance, it doesn't seem as sweet when you eat it, if you know what I mean? Also, the texture is a bit heavier than, say, a Victoria sponge--it has to be to support the fruit. Also, some traditional British puddings have lots of sugar, but also lots of spices (and booze) that may make them taste less sweet to people. So I wonder if that might have something to do Paul's harsh take?

Mmm, getting the urge to bake a Dundee cake. Now that I'm divorced, the fruits of my labors would be ALL MINE (and the kids'). It's really just so nice with a cup of tea and some very sharp cheddar. :)

Edited August 18, 2018 by spaceghostess
Dodgy punctuation

[Macbeth]

On July 14, 2018 at 11:07 AM, dubbel zout said:

 

It was peanut butter, chocolate, and pumpkin pie. It's as if Cathryn decided to use all of what she thought were typically American ingredients in the same pie. No wonder Paul and Mary didn't like it. 

The chocolate was in the crust. So the filling was peanut butter and pumpkin. The horror. The horror.  That was is in no way edible. 

Mary couldn't find anything good to say which is very rare. 

[magpye29]

Someone should have made a Boston Cream Pie just to watch Paul's head explode!  Or a vinegar pie, one of the "desperation" pies that American homesteaders were famous for.

[Indy]

On 2/6/2019 at 5:13 PM, magpye29 said:

Someone should have made a Boston Cream Pie just to watch Paul's head explode!  Or a vinegar pie, one of the "desperation" pies that American homesteaders were famous for.

That would have been amazing. 

I make a sugar cream pie...talk about sweet...and also freaking delicious. I’d love to feed that to Paul. In a proper pie dish, thankyouverymuch, not a tart tin! 

[NotRedRobyn]

On 7/29/2018 at 6:22 PM, magdalene said:

I want to apologize to anybody who I may have offended with my American super market pie experiences.  I realize I shouldn't judge a pie culture by pies not home-made.  I didn't realize until I re-read my post today how it must have come off. The episode made me remember my American pie experiences from years ago and I just thoughtlessly blurted it out.

Being from Germany I grew up with fruit tarts, which were often quite ....tart.  So I  must have felt pie culture shock, ha.

Paul confuses me with his peanut butter hate.  I could swear I watched one of those cancer charity GBBS specials on the web where he said he liked peanut butter.  I know they'll never air these specials on PBS - which is a pity because they are very good.

No need to apologize! I’m American and I hate supermarket pies too. I’ve even had a few homemade pies I had to choke down - One that the hostess forgot to add any sugar, another was quite burnt. 

One of the things I love about GBBO is that it transcends nationalities. I like to think we’re all friends here.  Cheers!

[BooksRule]

I caught the last half of this old episode on my local PBS station this morning and had to come here to read the comments about Paul and his pie bashing!  You guys didn't disappoint and I agree with most of them. Although there were a couple of good ones in the bunch of showstoppers, they definitely were tarts and not pies.  That being said, I would have loved to see if Paul (and Mary) would have felt differently about a fluffy peanut butter mousse in a not-too-sweet chocolate crust.  I love a lime pie (or tart, or whatever) so I know I would have liked that one.  As for the 'keeping it not extra sweet', I wonder what Paul and Mary would have thought about an Atlantic Beach Pie, which cuts the citrus sweetness with a crust that contains pulverized saltine crackers? (I've never had one, but it always sounded interesting).  I guess they wouldn't have been able to make one, though, since it would have taken too long to set up. 

As for the pumpkin vs sweet potato pie discussion, I like 'em both.  My sister always makes a couple of pumpkin pies for Thanksgiving and uses plain canned pumpkin and is generous with her spices, which results in a pie that is very flavorful.  I can tell the difference between sweet potato and pumpkin pies, but it sometimes takes me a minute.  And, I love a baked sweet potato that is then split open and dotted with butter and a sprinkle of salt--a good combination of a little sweet and a little savory.

[Pickles Aplenty]

Just watched this season on Netflix.  I'm an American, and while I wasn't wild about Paul's comments on American pies, I wasn't super offended by them, either.  I know that the British tend to like savory pies over sweet ones, so if Paul thinks American pies are too sweet, whatever.  I *do* think it's annoying how traditional fruit pies were cut from the competition, though.  My absolute favorite is blackberry pie, and there wasn't a single berry pie, in sight.  I have never been to an American fair or bake sale without any kind of fruit pie, so what the hell?

I have never liked pumpkin pie, so Danny's comment about it being "disgusting" didn't really bother me.  I don't know what possessed Cathryn to put pumpkin, peanut butter, and chocolate together.  Did she write AMERICAN FLAVORS on strips of paper and draw them out of a hat?  Seems like it.  While she was explaining what was in it, I actually said out loud, "Oh, honey, noooooo.".

All in all, one of my least favorite episodes, but I didn't think it was as bad as people were saying.  I'd still watch this one over any episode with Ruby in it.  

[Suzn]

I'm re-watching previous seasons on Netflix and this episode kind of shocked me.  If Paul has such contempt for American pies, why make it the challenge?  It was outrageous that no one actually made a pie!  Tart tins and weird flavor combinations, none of which were American was just ridiculous.  It should have included two crust fruit pies as well as cream pies with meringue or whipped cream in a PIE plate!  Not to mention that they made crusts with sugar in them - there may be people who do that but I've never seen it in a pie crust recipe.

I'll end my rant with this.  I don't get the charge that American pies are excessively sweet, especially fruit pies and certain not compared to the many things they make with jellies, jams and creams with enormous amounts of filling and frosting.

Edited December 14, 2020 by Suzn

[Pickles Aplenty]

3 hours ago, Suzn said:

I'm re-watching previous seasons on Netflix and this episode kind of shocked me.  If Paul has such contempt for American pies, why make it the challenge?  It was outrageous that no one actually made a pie! 

I was wondering the same thing. If no one cared, why make it a challenge? lol

Part of me wishes they would re-do this challenge and give the bakers more time to make some tart fruit pies that many, many Americans have grown up eating.  Maybe they're not distinctive enough to qualify as American pies, since they are made in other cultures/countries.  IDK, I think the whole challenge was a misfire from the very start, and definitely deserves a re-do (re-bake?).

Edited December 12, 2020 by Everina

[Aulty]

To put it into context for those who don't have access to the first two seasons (which are not on Netflix): in series 2 they had both, a meringue pie challenge and a mini tart challenge where most bakers chose to make fruit tarts. Series 1 also had a challenge that included tarts that was heavy on fruit and custard recipes. The producers (and I don't think Paul, at leat not in the early years, had a hand in choosing the challenges) probably chose American pies hoping the bakers do something a bit different.

Edited December 13, 2020 by Aulty

[emmawoodhouse]

I'm watching this episode right now. The British take on American pies is...not good. 

[Oldernowiser]

In all fairness, while Paul was a bit of a dick about it, most supermarket and restaurant pies are super sweet. Sugar is a preservative, ergo...

And in all fairness, Paul is a bit of a dick about...well, just about everything.

[ombre]

In rewatching before things disappear, I've mostly only had general thoughts.  But then I hit this episode, which I'd deliberately erased from my memory (except the eel bit and the dollies, both of which were superfab).  And I need to reiterate what has, indeed, been said here eleventy bajillion times.  WTF THOSE AREN'T AMERICAN PIES!

Thank you for bearing with me.  I feel better now.

If anybody wants a particularly scrummy recipe for pumpkin pie, this is exceptional.  Calls for making your own condensed milk, which is easy and fun and lets you steep in all sorts of lovely spices - I do cardamom, ginger, cloves, nutmeg, cinnamon, star anise.  https://www.seriouseats.com/bravetart-butternut-pumpkin-pie-recipe  And the pie crust used here - effectively a very easy rough puff - is nearly foolproof, shatteringly crisp and... dare I say it... *fun* to make.  (Cut your butter into cubes, toss 'em with your dry, and then hunt 'em down and squish 'em between your fingers.  Good for working off a Mood.  :D  )

ETA - I've now read more of this thread through and am fascinated by the horrified reactions to the meat pies and the wellingtons.  To me (an American) these are perfectly normal, lovely foods!  I'm suddenly super curious - do people still have that reaction?  Has two years of quarantine-baking/quarantine-binging-GBBO made them feel more normal to other USers?  I mean, even eel pies - it's just fish!  Bony, squiggly fish, to be sure, but... fish!

Edited December 8, 2021 by ombre

[akr]

10 hours ago, ombre said:

In rewatching before things disappear, I've mostly only had general thoughts.  But then I hit this episode, which I'd deliberately erased from my memory (except the eel bit and the dollies, both of which were superfab).  And I need to reiterate what has, indeed, been said here eleventy bajillion times.  WTF THOSE AREN'T AMERICAN PIES!

Thank you for bearing with me.  I feel better now.

If anybody wants a particularly scrummy recipe for pumpkin pie, this is exceptional.  Calls for making your own condensed milk, which is easy and fun and lets you steep in all sorts of lovely spices - I do cardamom, ginger, cloves, nutmeg, cinnamon, star anise.  https://www.seriouseats.com/bravetart-butternut-pumpkin-pie-recipe  And the pie crust used here - effectively a very easy rough puff - is nearly foolproof, shatteringly crisp and... dare I say it... *fun* to make.  (Cut your butter into cubes, toss 'em with your dry, and then hunt 'em down and squish 'em between your fingers.  Good for working off a Mood.  :D  )

ETA - I've now read more of this thread through and am fascinated by the horrified reactions to the meat pies and the wellingtons.  To me (an American) these are perfectly normal, lovely foods!  I'm suddenly super curious - do people still have that reaction?  Has two years of quarantine-baking/quarantine-binging-GBBO made them feel more normal to other USers?  I mean, even eel pies - it's just fish!  Bony, squiggly fish, to be sure, but... fish!

I absolutely agree about their bizarre take on "American" pies. I don't remember the specifics from this episode that well but I do remember it very distinctly as a classic example of how odd American-themed episodes are in other countries' cooking shows. Most of the things they feature on such shows are things I've never or rarely eaten, fried chicken and basic barbecue aside I suppose. Similarly, the GBBOs take on "German" and "Italian" and "Japanese" cuisine, among others, has seemingly been through a distinctly British lens, and it's no wonder that people with backgrounds from those countries have trouble remaking what they understand their own cuisine to be to fit the hosts' expectations. 

I agree that the key to pumpkin pie is the spices (and if you're using canned pumpkin, use Libby's. I don't know which others are fine, but I bought a store brand once and the look and consistency were very different and I didn't risk it.) I've always used the recipe (much simpler than the above, it sounds like!) from The Spice Cookbook (Avenelle Day and Lillie Stuckey, 1964), a cookbook my mother used and that everyone in the family has tracked down a copy of, mostly for the pumpkin & fruit pies. I've seen it on the internet, but: 1 cup sugar, 1 T flour, 1 tsp ginger, 1 tsp cinnamon, 1/2 tsp nutmeg (I grate whole ones - they're fresher), 1/8 tsp ground black pepper (fine grind, obviously), 1/8 tsp cloves (stir) (& make sure your spices are reasonably fresh or the results will be bland); 3 large eggs (beat in); 1.5 cups mashed pumpkin, 1 c light cream or undiluted evap milk (stir in). Similar (all-butter) crust (I use the recipe my cuisinart came with and get pretty much rough puff results). 400 degrees, 50 minutes, or until a knife comes out clean. I don't blind bake the crust. I've brought it to Thanksgivings where people thought they hated pumpkin pie and they liked mine, and I've had pumpkin pies that I hated, because they had so few spices, or just cinnamon. This one works but is still essentially traditional. (Don't leave out salt! Including in the crust! I've done it by accident and the result is really disappointing.) 

Edited December 9, 2021 by akr
weird spacing