Gimme That Old Time Religion

[FizzyPuff]

2 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

It really depends on the Catholic parish.  The Duggars would hate the church I grew up in.  The St. Louis Jesuits' guitar mass music was in heavy rotation.  My current church is 70% Hispanic and our bilingual services include cowbells.  I have also had the privilege of attending an African mass with African choir once.  There was dancing and clapping at that mass.  

Wow I don’t know they did all that in some Catholic Churches I guess I grew up in a very traditional church then, heavy on the ritual and the priest reading the bible it was the same every Sunday, it’s still the same now as my sister still goes to the church we went too as kids and she said it’s never changed.

[Nysha]

It's too bad the Duggars aren't willing to associate with other churches. Maybe it would alleviate some of their paranoia. 

I went to a Wesleyan church for several years when I lived in a very small rural town & if there was a 5th Sunday that month we would meet with 3 other area churches for evening services. These were Catholic, Lutheran, and a non-denominational Community church. At the Catholic and Lutheran churches communion was always served and everyone who was a believer in their own church was encouraged to participate. 

[doodlebug]

Quote

am not 100% certain about why Gothard is against divorce, but I imagine that it falls along the lines of other Christian faiths.  Heathen Catholics can separate and divorce but if they want to remarry and stay in the Church's good graces they have to get an annulment.  Those annulments have various steps and costs depending on the type of marriage that is being dissolved from just a civil ceremony up to a church sanctioned marriage.  The Church of England did not allow their faithful to remarry after divorce.  That is why Edward VIII abdicated for his brother when he wanted to marry Wallis Simpson.  Also why Princess Margaret's marriage to Peter Townsend never happened.  This was eventually changed allowing Charles and Camilla to marry and Charles can keep his place in the succession.  

I would assume the Duggars would be against any divorce of the marriages that JB has arranged.  I could see him allowing Jana to marry a divorced man if his previous marriage was a civil ceremony or in a different church.  He would not care as long as the man was now the "right" type of Christian.  Especially if the ex-wife in that situation was a godless hussy who works fulltime, drinks alcohol, wears revealing clothing, etc.  They don't expect their men to be virgins just look at who Tabitha Paine married.

I think the reason Gothardites don't permit divorce is just part of their whole misogynistic underpinnings where women are subjugated to their men and have no autonomy.  Tabitha Paine's husband only raped that hussy because she was drunk and tempted him by falling asleep in her own bed lying on her stomach.  It was all her fault, just as any problem in a marriage is the woman's fault because Gothard said so and so many of the men who follow him are losers who couldn't get laid otherwise.

The Church of England, however, was brought into existence mainly for the purpose of allowing Henry VII to dump Catherine of Aragon and marry Anne Boleyn.  It has tolerated divorce since its inception, at least in certain circumstances.

However, times and mores changed, especially during the Victorian era, when the public face of the monarchy became pretty prudish as did the rest of society.  As head of the Church of England, the monarch was meant to set an example for the public.  By Edward VIII's time, a divorced woman was considered to be somewhat amoral and lacking standards and could not possibly be virtuous enough to be Queen.  And Wallis had been married twice, and was American, to boot!  She was also 40ish and her prospects for childbearing were slim and that is the main public reason for the king to marry. The king needed Parliament's permission to marry and Edward knew he wouldn't get it due to the scandal marrying her would engender.  There was also the fact that he was a right wing Nazi sympathizer who'd spent his youth as a drunken wastrel and had less than no interest in being a good King; so many members of Parliament were kind of relieved to have a means to force him out.  He would've been a terrible King, as it was, his sympathies for the Nazis would've been a disaster in WWII.

Charles and Camilla dated in their 20's but it was well known that she had had a pretty active dating life prior to Charles and she was also known to be independent and outspoken and pretty much let Charles know from the start that she wasn't marrying into that circus and changing her ways.  This of course, led to the great Virgin Hunt of the late 70's-early 80's and Lady Diana, a shy unworldly 19 year old more than a decade Charles junior being thrown to the wolves and married off to a guy who saw her as a means to an end and not an actual partner.  It's taken a while, but I think people have finally figured out that the fairytale myth of the princess was always a lie.

By the time Charles and Camilla got together again, he already had heirs and she was not going to need to give him more.  And, of course, Diana had died, so there was no reason for her to be an obstacle, either.

Edited October 12, 2019 by doodlebug

[Sew Sumi]

MacArthur on women, specifically in the church.

https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2019/10/18/in-which-dr-john-macarthur-shows-his-true-colors-about-beth-moore/

Edited October 19, 2019 by Sew Sumi

[Temperance]

1 hour ago, Sew Sumi said:

MacArthur on women, specifically in the church.

https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2019/10/18/in-which-dr-john-macarthur-shows-his-true-colors-about-beth-moore/

Is this who owns the seminary Jeremy attends?

Edited October 19, 2019 by Temperance

[Absolom]

Yes, wonderful human that he is. 😉

[Churchhoney]

7 hours ago, Temperance said:

Is this who owns the seminary Jeremy attends?

Yes, and Jer's huge, beloved role model and hero -- the guy who appears to have taken Jer under his mighty wing as the worthiest little emulator in the world, and the head honcho of the kind of empire Jer may dream of leading.

By the way, many complaints that have been made about MacArthur's seminary re: accreditation center on the accusation that he never offers the tiniest hint of acceptance or tolerance to anyone whose "theological" views vary from his in the tiniest particular. That he tries his best to insist that every person who works at his university and seminary, including not just faculty but janitors, typists, lawn guys, electricians, etc.  all attend his church.... -- other Calvinist churches aren't acceptable....And students who write papers in which they question any of the many detailed views he espouses get put down in no uncertain terms....So there's no way in hell he'd give the super-warm welcome he's given Jer if he saw any hint that Jer disagrees with him on something as clearly vital to JM"s worldview as the place of women. 

From that article: "Listen, I’ve dealt first-hand with leaders from John MacArthur’s church and with graduates from The Master’s Seminary. As a whole, I have never felt more inferior in my life as a woman after having talked with them. They do not elevate women. In their eyes, there is only one place for women: at home raising babies and ready to give their husbands sex."

So much for the pleasant and popular myth that Jingle and Felicity are so lucky to have such an enlightened and forward-thinking man in their family. 

All JIngle's really got is  -- Same shit, different zip code and dress code.

It's a change, which in itself is good, I think. But it's not much of a change. 

Edited October 20, 2019 by Churchhoney

[lookeyloo]

3 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

Yes, and Jer's huge, beloved role model and hero -- the guy who appears to have taken Jer under his mighty wing as the worthiest little emulator in the world, and the head honcho of the kind of empire Jer may dream of leading.

By the way, many complaints that have been made about MacArthur's seminary re: accreditation center on the accusation that he never offers the tiniest hint of acceptance or tolerance to anyone whose "theological" views vary from his in the tiniest particular. That he tries his best to insist that every person who works at his university and seminary, including not just faculty but janitors, typists, lawn guys, electricians, etc.  all attend his church.... -- other Calvinist churches aren't acceptable....And students who write papers in which they question any of the many detailed views he espouses get put down in no uncertain terms....So there's no way in hell he'd give the super-warm welcome he's given Jer if he saw the tiniest hint that Jer disagreed with him on something as clearly vital to JM"s worldview as the place of women. 

From that article: "Listen, I’ve dealt first-hand with leaders from John MacArthur’s church and with graduates from The Master’s Seminary. As a whole, I have never felt more inferior in my life as a woman after having talked with them. They do not elevate women. In their eyes, there is only one place for women: at home raising babies and ready to give their husbands sex."

So much for the popular myth that Jingle and Felicity are so lucky to have such an enlightened and forward-thinking man in their family. 

All JIngle's really got is  -- Same shit, different zip code and dress code.

It's a change, which in itself is good, I think. But it's not much of a change. 

I still love that you call her Jingle!!!

[madpsych78]

Jeez, MacArthur is essentially 21st century Gothard.

[Sew Sumi]

Their doctrine differs. Gothard identifies as a Baptist. MacArthur is non-denominational, but with strong Calvinist leanings.

[Churchhoney]

43 minutes ago, madpsych78 said:

Jeez, MacArthur is essentially 21st century Gothard.

Making sure women stay in their place is a strong interest many of these evangelical guys have in common. 😁

Read an interesting take the other day on how this plays out in some of the churches that want a more mainstream look today, sometimes following sexual-abuse scandals and the like  .... and how it relates to women's issues in the larger culture, too  -- This piece isn't really reflective of their very adamant old woman-get-off-the-pulpit types like Gothard and MacArthur....I think the women talked about in this article are mostly of the boomer generation and younger. Interesting history of some of the ways this impulse has changed over the years and what the results have been. 

https://slate.com/human-interest/2019/10/kate-bowler-interview-the-preachers-wife-evangelical-women.html

Edited October 20, 2019 by Churchhoney

[Sew Sumi]

Beth Moore, who is mentioned in that article, is MacArthur's sworn enemy. She's mentioned in the tirade I posted above. 

[Churchhoney]

7 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

Beth Moore, who is mentioned in that article, is MacArthur's sworn enemy. She's mentioned in the tirade I posted above. 

Yeah, she's not just his enemy....She's everywhere!!! 

Satan must be sending her around. 😈

[irisheyes]

On 10/20/2019 at 8:05 PM, Sew Sumi said:

Beth Moore, who is mentioned in that article, is MacArthur's sworn enemy. She's mentioned in the tirade I posted above. 

Ironically, she and MacArthur are probably pretty close theologically. She’s Southern Baptist. She’s been unbelievably active in calling out the Evangelical church when it comes to sexual abuse. She was abused as a child, and she takes no prisoners on that topic.  When it comes to women preaching, she believes that women have a place to teach, but men should be the leaders of a church. So, I’m not sure why MacArthur decided to call her out, unless he doesn’t like what she’s been saying about sexual abuse in churches. Which then begs the question, why?

ETA: She’s also called out Evangelicals who support Trump as hypocritical, so maybe it’s that. MacArthur strikes me as a guy who jump on an invite to the Oval Office. 

Edited October 23, 2019 by irisheyes

[Churchhoney]

33 minutes ago, irisheyes said:

Ironically, she and MacArthur are probably pretty close theologically. She’s Southern Baptist. She’s been unbelievably active in calling out the Evangelical church when it comes to sexual abuse. She was abused as a child, and she takes no prisoners on that topic.  When it comes to women preaching, she believes that women have a place to teach, but men should be the leaders of a church. So, I’m not sure why MacArthur decided to call her out, unless he doesn’t like what she’s been saying about sexual abuse in churches. Which then begs the question, why?

Well, there's been more than one credible accusation that MacArthur and his fellows have silenced, shamed and ejected women from his university after they've been sexually assaulted by male students and either reported their assaults or otherwise been found out. So he doesn't want to hear about people winking at sexual abuse in Christian institutions. Because he basically always thinks it's the woman's fault and has done his utmost to wink at abuse that's happened at his institutions and to excuse the men while kicking the women to the curb as fast as he can. 

They're actually not all that close theologically in some ways, although I don't think that has much if anything to do with his response to her. She's Southern Baptist and doesn't seem to be among the new pretty-Calvinist-Southern-Baptist strain (although sometimes that's quite subtle, so I don't know that for sure.) Whereas JM's nondenominational, not much if any Baptist-influenced, and very Calvinist. 

I think his main issue with her is probably just that keeping women out of pulpits and out of teaching positions in seminaries or anywhere near pastors-in-training and, in short, keeping women from saying anything that might be considered definitive about religion is one of MacArthur's primary interests in life. He's an old fart who devotes himself to keeping women in a place where they can't threaten his and his buddies' hold on power and influence. 

Edited October 23, 2019 by Churchhoney

[MMEButterfly]

On 10/19/2019 at 1:29 PM, Sew Sumi said:

MacArthur on women, specifically in the church.

https://spiritualsoundingboard.com/2019/10/18/in-which-dr-john-macarthur-shows-his-true-colors-about-beth-moore/

Beth Moore's long and consistent popularity with Christian readers has to pain the likes of MacArthur. 

[Temperance]

On 10/22/2019 at 9:00 PM, Churchhoney said:

Well, there's been more than one credible accusation that MacArthur and his fellows have silenced, shamed and ejected women from his university after they've been sexually assaulted by male students and either reported their assaults or otherwise been found out. So he doesn't want to hear about people winking at sexual abuse in Christian institutions. Because he basically always thinks it's the woman's fault and has done his utmost to wink at abuse that's happened at his institutions and to excuse the men while kicking the women to the curb as fast as he can. 

They're actually not all that close theologically in some ways, although I don't think that has much if anything to do with his response to her. She's Southern Baptist and doesn't seem to be among the new pretty-Calvinist-Southern-Baptist strain (although sometimes that's quite subtle, so I don't know that for sure.) Whereas JM's nondenominational, not much if any Baptist-influenced, and very Calvinist. 

I think his main issue with her is probably just that keeping women out of pulpits and out of teaching positions in seminaries or anywhere near pastors-in-training and, in short, keeping women from saying anything that might be considered definitive about religion is one of MacArthur's primary interests in life. He's an old fart who devotes himself to keeping women in a place where they can't threaten his and his buddies' hold on power and influence. 

Wait a minute, what women are there in his university that can be kicked out! I thought it was all boys; no girls allowed. 

[Churchhoney]

8 hours ago, Temperance said:

Wait a minute, what women are there in his university that can be kicked out! I thought it was all boys; no girls allowed. 

He has two schools!

His seminary has no women. Because to get in there you have to have a direct line to God and you're being trained for a profession that gets to tell men what to do -- and of course women don't...and must not! 

But his university is an ordinary mostly-undergrad conservative-Christian post-secondary institution. So it has women -- since there are courses you can take that won't equip you for gaining power over men! (he hopes, anyway...)

Edited October 24, 2019 by Churchhoney

[Minivanessa]

Oh wowzer. I've just read a book that really lays out the Fundamentalist (and I think essentially the IFB strain) theology quite vividly. It's Fleeing Fundamentalism, an autobiography by Carlene Cross. She grew up on a Montana farm, and in her adolescence was drawn into that belief system when her mother got converted. Carlene then went to a (now defunct) Bible college where she met and later married a handsome charismatic fellow student. He became the pastor of a church in the Pacific Northwest, which (I think this was in the 80's - 90's) grew in membership because he was such a draw. 

Cross is a talented writer who brings life and detail to the story. And what a story. 

I'm no expert on the IFB version of fundamentalist Evangelical Christianity but I'm pretty sure what she describes is what the Duggars, Bates, et al, believe, and the world they live in. Warning: it's not pretty and I confess to skimming many pages of that stuff. 

Giving any kind of recap is beyond me at the moment, but I will say there are horrors and hypocrisies, love and hope, struggle and suffering, and strength, triumphs, and love. I'm sure I'll read it again. 

Oh, I almost forgot. She mentions Bill Gothard a few times. Including this: when she and her future husband were engaged, he kept citing Bill Gothard as the authority on how they were to behave. She said that she thought that as a man who'd never married or been a parent, she wasn't sure how Gothard was such an expert on all that stuff, but she was into being a good and obedient believer so kept her mouth shut.

Edited December 6, 2019 by Jeeves

[queenanne]

2 hours ago, Jeeves said:

Oh wowzer. I've just read a book that really lays out the Fundamentalist (and I think essentially the IFB strain) theology quite vividly. It's Fleeing Fundamentalism, an autobiography by Carlene Cross. She grew up on a Montana farm, and in her adolescence was drawn into that belief system when her mother got converted. Carlene then went to a (now defunct) Bible college where she met and later married a handsome charismatic fellow student. He became the pastor of a church in the Pacific Northwest, which (I think this was in the 80's - 90's) grew in membership because he was such a draw. 

Cross is a talented writer who brings life and detail to the story. And what a story. 

I'm no expert on the IFB version of fundamentalist Evangelical Christianity but I'm pretty sure what she describes is what the Duggars, Bates, et al, believe, and the world they live in. Warning: it's not pretty and I confess to skimming many pages of that stuff. 

Giving any kind of recap is beyond me at the moment, but I will say there are horrors and hypocrisies, love and hope, struggle and suffering, and strength, triumphs, and love. I'm sure I'll read it again. 

Oh, I almost forgot. She mentions Bill Gothard a few times. Including this: when she and her future husband were engaged, he kept citing Bill Gothard as the authority on how they were to behave. She said that she thought that as a man who'd never married or been a parent, she wasn't sure how Gothard was such an expert on all that stuff, but she was into being a good and obedient believer so kept her mouth shut.

If/when you do read it again, I strongly suggest reading more closely through the "skimming portion", because that's probably where the meat of identification with the brainwashed Duggars comes from; so is not a waste of time in reality.  It certainly I suspect cuts down on many moments of extreme WTFery that Duggar behavior occasions.

[Minivanessa]

18 minutes ago, queenanne said:

If/when you do read it again, I strongly suggest reading more closely through the "skimming portion", because that's probably where the meat of identification with the brainwashed Duggars comes from; so is not a waste of time in reality.  It certainly I suspect cuts down on many moments of extreme WTFery that Duggar behavior occasions.

Oh, I agree! And that's why I'll probably re-read the book. I was just tired and feeling kind of emotionally fragile when I was reading the book last night. I'm somewhat familiar with the doctrines in question, and I was just not in a place where I wanted to take in all of her rather vivid descriptions of the apocalyptic stuff and lakes of blood and fire and people branded with the mark of Satan and all. ☹️

[queenanne]

1 minute ago, Jeeves said:

Oh, I agree! And that's why I'll probably re-read the book. I was just tired and feeling kind of emotionally fragile when I was reading the book last night. I'm somewhat familiar with the doctrines in question, and I was just not in a place where I wanted to take in all of her rather vivid descriptions of the apocalyptic stuff and lakes of blood and fire and people branded with the mark of Satan and all. ☹️

I certainly understand that!  I just hate to see people in general veering away from information they are on the brink of gaining; but I certainly advise you to take it at your own pace. 

The above sample, for ex., explains a lot about the Duggars and their passion for God-bothering; although "Sinners in the Hands of an Angry God" was required reading for me in my (secular) high school, and thus I've always had some colorful exemplars of Puritanism in the back of my head (for the record, I thought ol' John Edwards was so vitriolic as to border upon parody; and had to restrain myself from laughing at some points during the reading, which was clearly not the idea).

[EVS]

I wasn’t sure where to put this, but there is a fascinating and often disturbing reddit AMA on r/duggarsnark (r/duggarssnark?). It’s u/jays_motorcycle or something close to that. She was ex-IBLP and gives more than the usual insights into everything. Especially interesting to me were her comments about Gil Bates and Chad Paine’s dad. 

[Sew Sumi]

Can you link it? I heard about it in a FB group, but I can't get around Reddit to save my life. Thanks!

[Churchhoney]

7 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

Can you link it? I heard about it in a FB group, but I can't get around Reddit to save my life. Thanks!

Click on the thread title. 

Edited December 16, 2019 by Churchhoney

[EVS]

Thank you @Churchhoney. I wasn’t sure if it was ok to link to reddit. 

[Churchhoney]

24 minutes ago, EVS said:

Thank you @Churchhoney. I wasn’t sure if it was ok to link to reddit. 

I'm not 100 percent sure it is either! But we've written about their threads enough here....so I figured I'd risk it! (I guess we'll find out whether it was okay!0 .... I thought about giving directions to get to it -- but I've tried that before and it doesn't seem to work that well!.....

Also, it's so important for the world to read on the subject of such "religions." Especially here, where we treat these victims as entertainment. 

Edited December 16, 2019 by Churchhoney

[Zella]

Goddamn that is some grim reading. 😞

[Sew Sumi]

Erin Bates "sold" to the Paines in exchange for Gil getting on the IBLP board? Woah.

Edited December 16, 2019 by Sew Sumi

[Minivanessa]

16 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

I'm not 100 percent sure it is either! But we've written about their threads enough here....so I figured I'd risk it! (I guess we'll find out whether it was okay!0 .... I thought about giving directions to get to it -- but I've tried that before and it doesn't seem to work that well!.....

Also, it's so important for the world to read on the subject of such "religions." Especially here, where we treat these victims as entertainment. 

Wow, that reddit read was an eye opener for me. I thought I'd learned quite a bit about ATI/IBLP and Gothard, and I had - but there's more. There's a lot to digest in that discussion.

Including the issues of status and power within ATI. And how it resonates with marriages of ATI offspring. The Duggars were, at least in their 19K&C heyday, sort of "ATI Royalty" but the OP there (or whatever the reddit term is for the one doing the AMA) pointed out that none of the Duggar kids, starting with Josh, married into ATI royalty families. She said that at the time of that marriage, she was surprised that a Duggar was marrying a girl from a low-status (not rich) ATI family, the Kellers. Based on her experience in ATI, she also wonders how Pa Keller managed to marry Priscilla into the Wallers, another step way up in ATI status. (It did occur to me that he seems to be "marrying down" with Nathan's engagement to Nurie, lol.)

What an evil organization. And thanks to TLC and UP, the evil has been covered over and we're shown what are presented as just nice extra-large Christian families. 

Ugh.

Edited to add: Remember when Joshgate I hit, and Jessa and Jill went on camera with Whatshername the Hot Fox News Blonde? Jessa was stone cold, "It was over the clothes and the girls were asleep, nothing to see here, let's move right along to the next season of our show." And Jill was crying. At one point IIRC, Jill made a comment that well, this (sexual assault/abuse) was something "all the families we know" [or a lot of families we know] have to deal with. Which is a rather eye-opening way to try to minimize the seriousness of what happened. 

Anyway, I urge everyone who hangs out on this forum to read that whole reddit AMA - and, it's long. The OP says (sure, it's her opinion but she has the experience and knowledge) that rape and sexual abuse are absolutely built into the ATI teachings and it happens in pretty much all. those. families. If it's not the father it's the brothers. The OP left her ATI family at 18 when she refused to marry the ATI guy her mother had chosen for her. Since then she's been connected to others who have left ATI. I respect her opinion on that. 

She had some interesting perspectives on the "true believer" types like Jinger and Jill, vs. the "cultural" ATI types like Jessa and Michelle. The former are more likely to become uncomfortable with the ATI teachings as life goes on, because they are sincere and want things to be "right" and are troubled when what they are taught as doctrine doesn't line up with truth/reality/morality. Whereas the "cultural" ones aren't so bothered by inconsistencies, they are more into belonging, status and power. As in,  Jessa's preening for the cameras, etc.

BTW, one bottom line reminder from that discussion: the Duggars don't give a shit about us because we're not right with God and are going to hell. Unlike themselves and the rest of the ATI members, who are right with God and will ultimately control the world. 

Edited December 17, 2019 by Jeeves

[DangerousMinds]

15 hours ago, Sew Sumi said:

Erin Bates "sold" to the Paines in exchange for Gil getting on the IBLP board? Woah.

Well, Erin did have that birthday cake for Gothard at her own wedding.

[lilwhitelion]

I was disgusted and saddened to read the reddit poster's AMA.  The quote below talks about why they push for home births.  

Home births are taught as part of The Standard in Gothards Advanced Seminars and most people in my church did it. It is believed that fetuses are aware of what’s happening in the womb. Gothard teaches that you should play hymns and read the Bible to your unborn fetus to prep them to be a Christian. It’s believed that demonic influences can prevent or harm the baby when born. There is a bizarre anecdote about a woman whose baby refused to be born because it knew an evil Troll doll was in the hospital room. Once the Satanic influences were removed - the baby was born.

[DangerousMinds]

I’m sorry, but I am cracking up at the mention of the ebil troll doll ! 🤣

[Zella]

1 hour ago, DangerousMinds said:

I’m sorry, but I am cracking up at the mention of the ebil troll doll ! 🤣

The Vasectomy Reversal Choir got me. You couldn't make this shit up if you tried. 

[Ohiopirate02]

6 minutes ago, Zella said:

The Vasectomy Reversal Choir got me. You couldn't make this shit up if you tried. 

I still can't believe that many men had that particular procedure within the confines of this patriarchal cult.  I remember back when TLC was actually living up to its name and they had a show about medical procedures, like actual surgeries being done on camera.  I had a fun afternoon watching my dad and older brother and their reactions to the vasectomy episode and most importantly the vasectomy reversal episode.  A vasectomy might be easier to reverse than a tubal ligation, but it still is pretty involved.  And if that episode was anything to go by, the men only get a local instead of being knocked out.  

[Churchhoney]

3 hours ago, Zella said:

The Vasectomy Reversal Choir got me. You couldn't make this shit up if you tried. 

Especially as you realize that the subtext this particular Gothard creation is -- "Bring more babeez into my cult so there'll be a bigger selection of teenage girls for me to molest and terrorize! Praise Jesus!"

Edited December 17, 2019 by Churchhoney

[andromeda331]

Wow, that was bad. It was really hard to read. A lot of it was what I suspected. But it was still really hard to read. Those poor, poor kids. Those poor, poor girls. 

[Zella]

3 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

Wow, that was bad. It was really hard to read. A lot of it was what I suspected. But it was still really hard to read. Those poor, poor kids. Those poor, poor girls. 

Yeah, I know a lot of fundies, and a lot of their beliefs aren't new to me. But damn the stuff in there about Gothard and his organization really did take me aback. 

[lianau]

Has anyone heard of this #WakeupOlive thing ? The young daughter of a Bethel worship leader died a few days ago (as in dead and currently in a morgue ) and now  all these people are praying for her resurrection and those parents are going to crash so hard when that doesn't happen .

[doodlebug]

1 minute ago, lianau said:

Has anyone heard of this #WakeupOlive thing ? The young daughter of a Bethel worship leader died a few days ago (as in dead and currently in a morgue ) and now  all these people are praying for her resurrection and those parents are going to crash so hard when that doesn't happen .

I knew a patient once who had a fetal demise at around 17 weeks.  She refused to let us deliver her because she was going to have a 'healing' and the baby was going to 'rise up' alive in her womb at some point.  She and her husband actually went out to California where some fundy preacher did some sort of healing ceremony and told them the date that the baby would return to life and all would be well.  She sincerely believed that this would happen, even as the date came and went.  She still refused all medical intervention and lost touch with us.  A couple months later, I got a call from an ER in Podunk; she'd come in there having passed the mummified fetus at home.  Never saw her again.

[doodlebug]

26 minutes ago, lianau said:

Has anyone heard of this #WakeupOlive thing ? The young daughter of a Bethel worship leader died a few days ago (as in dead and currently in a morgue ) and now  all these people are praying for her resurrection and those parents are going to crash so hard when that doesn't happen .

I read about it a little bit.  It seems the apparently perfectly healthy 2 year old died in her sleep on Saturday.  I guess I am a cynic, but I am kind of concerned that these parents are pushing the resurrection narrative to try to prevent an autopsy/coroner's inquest.  Healthy toddlers rarely die in their sleep, she was too old for crib death.  Makes me concerned that she was perhaps abused or neglected or perhaps died of a childhood illness that could've been prevented with a vaccine or cured with antibiotics.  I don't know these people at all, but they seem like the sort who would perhaps have some rather unconventional beliefs about child rearing, too and are trying  to avoid arrest now that something tragic has happened.  
Apparently, the poor child's body is at the morgue in the coroner's office. 

Edited December 17, 2019 by doodlebug

[JoanArc]

On 12/16/2019 at 5:59 PM, Sew Sumi said:

Erin Bates "sold" to the Paines in exchange for Gil getting on the IBLP board? Woah.

Meh, I'll buy it as a form of human trafficking.

[Temperance]

I'm not sure I agree totally with the Reddittor. Gothard's teachings are hardly unique among fundies. She assumes everyone, who is quiverfull and anti-medical, has a connection to Gothard. Gothard promoted both of those ideas, but so did other fundie groups. It doesn't lead all back to him.

I haven't found the Erin Paine part, which sounds fishy to me. I also doubt some of the other things like the stuff about the Kellers.

I'll say this much for the Reddit poster; they had a terrible experience with IBLP, and I believe them when they tell their own story. It also makes sense that a lot of the families are poor (something I've longed suspected). Also that Gothard's sex abuse crimes are worse, because he groomed so many women makes sense. 

Edited December 17, 2019 by Temperance

[Absolom]

She's also off on the timing of when the Duggars home churched.  They haven't always had a home church.  They initially attended a regular SBC, then an IFB church (that's when the first Josh episode occurred), then the "home" churches, and finally back to an IFB congregation.

[Scarlett45]

1 hour ago, Absolom said:

She's also off on the timing of when the Duggars home churched.  They haven't always had a home church.  They initially attended a regular SBC, then an IFB church (that's when the first Josh episode occurred), then the "home" churches, and finally back to an IFB congregation.

I do think that the Duggar’s married Josh to Anna because she was available, and despite the lip service to “this abuse is something a lot of families deal with*”, Josh was damaged goods in their circle. A well to do fundie bride at 20 wouldn’t have taken him. And he wasn’t old enough to get a “spinster”. They wanted him married ASAP and Anna was available. 

*sex abuse happens in families, and yes we need to have an open discussion about that; but they said that to minimize what happened like it was no big deal

[Absolom]

13 minutes ago, Scarlett45 said:

I do think that the Duggars married Josh to Anna because she was available, and despite the lip service to “this abuse is something a lot of families deal with*”, Josh was damaged goods in their circle.

For sure.  His crime was publicly known and they needed him tied down and hopefully "fixed." 

[JustRosie]

21 minutes ago, Absolom said:

For sure.  His crime was publicly known and they needed him tied down and hopefully "fixed." 

Agreed. He definitely needed help.  However, sending him to some Jesus program to pray it away and then then marrying him to Anna wasn’t the answer. 

[BitterApple]

1 hour ago, Temperance said:

I'm not sure I agree totally with the Reddittor. Gothard's teachings are hardly unique among fundies. She assumes everyone, who is quiverfull and anti-medical, has a connection to Gothard. Gothard promoted both of those ideas, but so did other fundie groups. It doesn't lead all back to him.

I haven't found the Erin Paine part, which sounds fishy to me. I also doubt some of the other things like the stuff about the Kellers.

I'll say this much for the Reddit poster; they had a terrible experience with IBLP, and I believe them when they tell their own story. It also makes sense that a lot of the families are poor (something I've longed suspected). Also that Gothard's sex abuse crimes are worse, because he groomed so many women makes sense. 

Me neither. Is it possible Gil jumped on an opportunity to use the Paine connection to advance in IBLP? Sure, I can see it. But do I think he traded Erin for a promotion? No, I don't. Maybe Erin's and Chad's marriage was semi-arranged like Austin's and Joy's, but they appeared to be genuinely in love on their wedding day. I didn't get a vibe that either party was forced into anything or reluctant about the relationship. 

[BradandJanet]

1 hour ago, Temperance said:

I'm not sure I agree totally with the Reddittor. Gothard's teachings are hardly unique among fundies. She assumes everyone, who is quiverfull and anti-medical, has a connection to Gothard. Gothard promoted both of those ideas, but so did other fundie groups. It doesn't lead all back to him.

I haven't found the Erin Paine part, which sounds fishy to me. I also doubt some of the other things like the stuff about the Kellers.

I'll say this much for the Reddit poster; they had a terrible experience with IBLP, and I believe them when they tell their own story. It also makes sense that a lot of the families are poor (something I've longed suspected). Also that Gothard's sex abuse crimes are worse, because he groomed so many women makes sense. 

I agree. While Gothard certainly added some special touches to his rendition of the cult, the description covers many of these rigid patriarchal groups that include the Rodriguii and others. 

What do these people think will happen when (if) the rapture comes? The evangelicals trash the Catholics (I've heard it) and probably vice versa. The Mormons have not only silos of grain but billions of dollars put aside for the event. The Jehovah Witnesses are ready to go at any moment. Maybe God will erect a giant cage and let them slug it out for admission rights. Otherwise, they'll be as unhappy in heaven as they are on earth. 

[Zella]

I just reread the whole AMA in its entirety this evening, and honestly I feel a bit physically ill now. That shit about girls on their periods sleeping under lights and the sheer extent of sexual abuse in that organization is incredibly disturbing.

She also mentioned more than 1 murderer with IBLP ties. Anyone know what she was talking about?