Gimme That Old Time Religion

[Zella]

8 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

Greater East Fayetteville? I get saying "greater Fayetteville area," but adding in a specific area makes it weird to me.

Yeah he is literally the only person I've ever heard say that. LOL

Greater Fayetteville area actually sounds hella weird to me since Fayetteville itself is part of a larger metro area.

In fact, though the usual rule of thumb is the east side of Fayetteville is nicer, I usually hear people refer to the town via the main thoroughfares--east of I-49/west of I-49, etc.--or they just say East Fayetteville. As soon as you move outside Fayetteville, you either start hitting Springdale or you start hitting small towns that functionally are bedroom communities of the greater NWA area, but I don't think they think of themselves as that. 

TLDR version: the greater Fayetteville area is basically all of NWA, which includes 3 other cities with their own distinctive identity and a shitload of smaller towns, so calling it the greater Fayetteville area is either weirdly limiting or weirdly arrogant. I have no clue why he doesn't just talk about the area as the greater NWA area. 

Edited December 27, 2019 by Zella

[Lunera]

1 hour ago, Zella said:

What is Caldwell's church? I didn't realize he had a church of his own or that the Duggars attended it, though I knew he was a pastor. I bet you're right Kendra and Joe attend too. It would raise eyebrows not to.

 

He's the pastor at a plant church called Lighthouse Baptist Church. The Forsyths have been attending the church for a while, too. Austin's sister is the pianist there. 

http://www.visitlighthousenwa.com/meet-our-pastor.html

Edited December 27, 2019 by Lunera
Added pic

[emma675]

4 hours ago, lookeyloo said:

Yep, I got snookered by Wanderwoman and got a PM telling me she was a fake.  I also donated to the GFM for the woman who claimed she needed $$ for her grandsons - something about their school.  And then she was gone...

Same. Although I was on vacation when Wanderwoman was exposed, so I missed out on donating to her GFM (although I probably would have). 

[Zella]

2 minutes ago, Lunera said:

He's the pastor at a plant church called Lighthouse Baptist Church. The Forsyths have been attending the church for a while, too. Austin's sister is the pianist there. 

http://www.visitlighthousenwa.com/meet-our-pastor.html

Oh that's interesting the Forsyths attend as well. 

[GeeGolly]

That is one tiny church. Kendra's, Austin's and the Duggar families would spill out of there. 

[Sew Sumi]

I didn't know that about the Forsyth-Ballinger sister. I agree that Joy and Austin attend there as well.

[Lunera]

If you scroll all the way back through the Caldwell family page there's a couple of pictures of the Forsyth's. I'm surprised Kendra didn't end up with Austin. These posts are from 6 years ago.

 

[Absolom]

On 12/26/2019 at 2:47 PM, Jenniferbug said:

There have been a few in the Small Talk thread since then who have rang alarm bells for me (though oddly not for others!), including the one you mention. I suspect there may still be a couple either working a long con or just in desperate need of attention, but the majority of people in that thread are sweet, genuine people. I mostly lurk since WanderWoman though, because that was a wake up call for me about sharing personal information.  

You're absolutely right and it always pays to keep the salt shaker handy on the internet.  It's very important in the Duggar arena since grifters attract grifters and liars attract liars.  There's usually at least one liar or attention whore drifting around.  

On the Duggar front since two daughters have escaped the IFB plus Gothard fold through marrying men who go to other denomination churches, I expect Jim Bob may check out future spouse religious beliefs a bit differently.  His 30 or 50 page questionnaire obviously didn't work out so well.  The sons have been been sticking with IFB/Gothard brides more closely.

Edited December 27, 2019 by Absolom

[Zella]

I think Caldwell's church is where they want any next potential spouses to come from--whether they are actual Caldwells or not. 

[Temperance]

16 hours ago, Lunera said:

If you scroll all the way back through the Caldwell family page there's a couple of pictures of the Forsyth's. I'm surprised Kendra didn't end up with Austin. These posts are from 6 years ago.

 

Austin was probably already promised to Joy.  Maybe Kendra was promised a Duggar boy too. 

[Sew Sumi]

Not 6 years ago. The Duggars didn't start attending the Caldwell church until after Joshgate in 2015 (2014?). They were homechurching in the airplane hangar before that. Did they even know the Caldwells then?

1 minute ago, Sew Sumi said:

Ignore this space

 

Edited December 28, 2019 by Sew Sumi

[Zella]

8 minutes ago, Temperance said:

Austin was probably already promised to Joy.  Maybe Kendra was promised a Duggar boy too. 

There is that rumor that Kendra was originally with Jed!. I don't know if that's true, but if so, maybe it was one of those "any Duggar will do" situations. 

3 minutes ago, Sew Sumi said:

Not 6 years ago. The Duggars didn't start attending the Caldwell church until after Joshgate in 2015. They were homechurching in the airplane hangar before that. Did they even know the Caldwells then?

 

Do you think the Forsyths may have introduced the Duggars to that church? Am I correct that the Forsyths are long-time Duggar friends? If so, I could see there already being an understanding he was off-limits, even if the Duggars weren't attending the church yet. 

Edited December 28, 2019 by Zella

[Sew Sumi]

Jed! was also rumored to be courting Lauren Caldwell before the pictures with James surfaced. 

[Zella]

Just now, Sew Sumi said:

Jed! was also rumored to be courting Lauren Caldwell before the pictures with James surfaced. 

Oh that's right! He inspires as many rumors as Jana. 

[Jynnan tonnix]

1 minute ago, Zella said:

There is that rumor that Kendra was originally with Jed!. I don't know if that's true, but if so, maybe it was one of those "any Duggar will do" situations. 

Do you think the Forsyths may have introduced the Duggars to that church? Am I correct that the Forsyths are long-time Duggar friends?

I know I've gotten that idea at least a couple of times in the past, though I couldn't swear to it or come up with specific links...

 

[Zella]

2 minutes ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

I know I've gotten that idea at least a couple of times in the past, though I couldn't swear to it or come up with specific links...

 

In Touch claimed it a couple of years ago, citing a former employee. 

https://www.intouchweekly.com/posts/joseph-duggar-kendra-caldwell-jedidiah-135342/?display=listicle

Edited December 28, 2019 by Zella

[Sew Sumi]

Yeah, I think the Forsyths are the missing link w/r/t the Caldwells. Joy has said she has known Austin since she was like 5.

Edited December 28, 2019 by Sew Sumi

[Love2dance]

Joining the rest of the group that got suckered in by Wanderwoman. I worried for her, donated to her, and learned a very good lesson. I have a feeling she saved me from much worse. I was very naive. Now I’m more jaded and skeptical. 

[Jynnan tonnix]

1 minute ago, Love2dance said:

Joining the rest of the group that got suckered in by Wanderwoman. I worried for her, donated to her, and learned a very good lesson. I have a feeling she saved me from much worse. I was very naive. Now I’m more jaded and skeptical. 

I think I was a little more skeptical (though probably not quite enough) because of an earlier brush with one of these people. This was way back in, maybe 1998-1999?, thereabouts  because it was an X-files board. I had made a pretty good internet friend whom I still communicate with until today, but this person showed up on our board who ingratiated herself, then suddenly developed cancer, went through a couple of treatments, then had a "friend" let us know that she had passed away. A bunch of us sent flowers and such, then all was quiet for a while, until the first girl, who I had been talking to for a good couple of years at that point, told me that cancer girl had contacted her, letting her know that it was all a hoax, but since she really liked her, she wanted to be fiends anyway...She was told, "no", that someone who played such games online was not to be trusted, but kept harassing her for quite some time. I don't recall exactly how it ended, but evidently authorities of some description ultimately shut her up. Anyway, I've been way more skeptical than otherwise when it comes to internet sob-stories since then.

 

[zoomama]

1 minute ago, Jynnan tonnix said:

I think I was a little more skeptical (though probably not quite enough) because of an earlier brush with one of these people. This was way back in, maybe 1998-1999?, thereabouts  because it was an X-files board. I had made a pretty good internet friend whom I still communicate with until today, but this person showed up on our board who ingratiated herself, then suddenly developed cancer, went through a couple of treatments, then had a "friend" let us know that she had passed away. A bunch of us sent flowers and such, then all was quiet for a while, until the first girl, who I had been talking to for a good couple of years at that point, told me that cancer girl had contacted her, letting her know that it was all a hoax, but since she really liked her, she wanted to be fiends anyway...She was told, "no", that someone who played such games online was not to be trusted, but kept harassing her for quite some time. I don't recall exactly how it ended, but evidently authorities of some description ultimately shut her up. Anyway, I've been way more skeptical than otherwise when it comes to internet sob-stories since then.

 

this has me concerned...the whole idea of a scammer among us. i need to be less free with info i guess.

[Jeeves]

I know I didn't donate any money to wanderwoman, but I did donate to a GFM for another person who turned out to be conning us. it wasn't much money, thank goodness. In hindsight I realized I'd missed some yellow or maybe even red flags in the info for the GFM. I chalked it up as a $25 lesson in how to assess pleas for financial help on the innernetz (and IRL). 

[Zella]

Yeah the rule of thumb I've adopted about gofundmes (which I totally call go-to-me funds now thanks to the Rodrigues family) is that if I don't know the people in person, it's just not happening. I have made a couple of exceptions for local ones where I don't know the people but I know of them. 

Also because of someone I have the misfortune of knowing in person, I don't donate to PayPals where you can't tell how much money they are getting. At least with a go-to-me fund, you can see there is an ostensible goal and the progress toward it. 

Edited December 28, 2019 by Zella

[Jynnan tonnix]

28 minutes ago, zoomama said:

this has me concerned...the whole idea of a scammer among us. i need to be less free with info i guess.

To be honest, I don't know that it's kept me from sharing way more than I should...I tend to be way too trusting of what someone might do with information, I guess. But it has kept me from sending money, so that might or might not be better in the long run.

Edited December 28, 2019 by Jynnan tonnix

[awaken]

On 12/26/2019 at 6:00 PM, Sew Sumi said:

The Duggars attend Pa Caldwell's church, have since Joshgate. I'm sure Kendra and Joe also attend there. It's never been established where Benessa attend church.

I find it fascinating that Benessa doesn’t talk up their going to church, and post weekly cutesy family church pics like the bates do. You’d think if this is all a “ministry” that would be one of their big things, to prominently go to church and encourage others to do the same. 

50 minutes ago, Love2dance said:

Joining the rest of the group that got suckered in by Wanderwoman. I worried for her, donated to her, and learned a very good lesson. I have a feeling she saved me from much worse. I was very naive. Now I’m more jaded and skeptical. 

I find the whole long con internet hoax thing fascinating too!  How someone has THAT much time on their hands to learn that much detail in order to maintain an elaborate months (years?) long charade and thoroughly convince groups of people on really specific message boards like for the Duggars. 

[zoomama]

On 12/27/2019 at 6:30 PM, Jynnan tonnix said:

To be honest, I don't know that it's kept me from sharing way more than I should...I tend to be way too trusting of what someone might do with information, I guess. But it has kept me from sending money, so that might or might not be better in the long run.

i think you have said what i was trying to. i agree. but still, i will share with more of  a filter on my thoughts from now on.

[Barb23]

I became skeptical of Wanderwoman when her newly separated husband brought his girlfriend to the baby's birthday or something like that.  Luckily I didn't donate to her or anyone else. 

There was also the grandmother who set up a go-fund-me to get school supplies including tablets for the grandchildren she had custody of.  IIRC,  she appeared rather quickly and/or didn't post often up until the time she posted about the GFM.  Someone up thread remembered her also. I think her user name had to do something with the beach like a shell & think she was outed the same time as WW.

It is weird about the amount of time WW spent on the Duggar forum.  Didn't she set up the Duggar Q&A thread? 

It is sad that people like these have to make things questionable for the rest of us who seem honest.  For alot of us, myself included, it's a place to share both good and bad things about our lives & a place to vent. Sometimes it's easier talking to our cyber friends than our in person friends. I don't think we've had any more problems since WW & the money seeking Grandma left.  Hopefully it will stay that way. 

[Absolom]

1 hour ago, Barb23 said:

It is weird about the amount of time WW spent on the Duggar forum.  Didn't she set up the Duggar Q&A thread? 

WW/Razing Ruth and all her other names has accumulated a LOT of Duggar/IBLP knowledge over the years.  She can seem quite credible for a bit of time.  She's been following the Duggars since the first special.  She is at least reading on every single major Duggar forum and many minor ones.  She ALWAYS, ALWAYS overplays her hand eventually.  You just have to wait long enough for the outlandish to appear.

The grifting grandma was a classic grifter.  Watch for the asking for something that doesn't sound quite right (elementary students must have a computer, odd car repair or the usual relative hospitalized or trying to get to a funeral) and then none of the usual means of help or assistance will work out.  People offer suggestions and they are all shot down as not workable.  Only cash to the grifter is a reasonable solution to them.

[OpieTaylor]

Has this been posted anywhere on the Counting On forum yet? I came across it today; it's not going to come as a shock to any of us here, I'm afraid 😕 

https://www.cosmopolitan.com/lifestyle/a30284631/amish-sexual-abuse-incest-me-too/ 

"The Amish Keep to Themselves. And They’re Hiding a Horrifying Secret: A year of reporting by Cosmo and Type Investigations reveals a culture of incest, rape, and abuse."

 

[Jeeves]

On 1/14/2020 at 8:42 PM, OpieTaylor said:

Has this been posted anywhere on the Counting On forum yet? I came across it today; it's not going to come as a shock to any of us here, I'm afraid 😕 

https://www.cosmopolitan.com/lifestyle/a30284631/amish-sexual-abuse-incest-me-too/ 

"The Amish Keep to Themselves. And They’re Hiding a Horrifying Secret: A year of reporting by Cosmo and Type Investigations reveals a culture of incest, rape, and abuse."

 

The Amish also run puppy mills. There are unproven claims that the Amish run a certain percentage of US puppy mills. I really don't care what share of that slimy industry they control; I do believe reports that an Amish puppy mill isn't an isolated thing and I wouldn't be surprised if they treat their women badly too.

[OpieTaylor]

2 minutes ago, Jeeves said:

The Amish also run puppy mills. There are unproven claims that the Amish run a certain percentage of US puppy mills. I really don't care what share of that slimy industry they control; I do believe reports that an Amish puppy mill isn't an isolated thing and I wouldn't be surprised if they treat their women badly too.

I've heard about the Amish puppy mills too 😥

[Churchhoney]

On 12/27/2019 at 7:19 PM, Sew Sumi said:

Not 6 years ago. The Duggars didn't start attending the Caldwell church until after Joshgate in 2015 (2014?). They were homechurching in the airplane hangar before that. Did they even know the Caldwells then?

 

They must have known the Caldwells before that, though. Caldwell came from Northern Virginia to plant his current Arkansas church in 2010, it looks like. Then in 2014 he was already trying to win a seat in the Arkansas House. And Jim Bob was quite involved in Caldwell's House campaign (which he lost). So somewhere earlier than that they got mixed in together.

I wonder whether they met through the anti-LGBQT campaigning in their area, which both the Caldwells and the Duggars had been heavily involved in.......

.I actually also wonder (my tinfoil hat keeps coming out of the closet and jumping onto my head) whether Caldwell may have decided to start a plant church near JB and M partly because he knew of their fame and thought it would be good to hook up with famous people who were equally zealous in the anti-gay-marriage cause........There are a lot of places in this country where you might plant a church ... so why there? .... And then he clearly reached out to Jim Bob pretty early on in his tenure in Arkansas to get JB working in his political campaign...

I don't know. I just look at Caldwell and think somehow that boy ain't right. 

 

Edited January 16, 2020 by Churchhoney

[Absolom]

The big question is why go to Arkansas to plant an IFB church?  They already have them all over the state.  They don't really need one more, but if they did the already existing churches could easily split one off.  

[Churchhoney]

22 hours ago, Absolom said:

The big question is why go to Arkansas to plant an IFB church?  They already have them all over the state.  They don't really need one more, but if they did the already existing churches could easily split one off.  

That's my question, too.

And while this may be my tinfoil hat again, I wonder whether Caldwell wasn't motivated by what he saw as the potential to become a major political champion of his favorite causes by going to the area in Arkansas where he could team up with politically motivated co-believer, the famous Jim Bob. (Jim Bob had lost some elections, but, hey, PC is much prettier, which I'm sure doesn't escape PC's notice)

Caldwell was at a conservative church in the DC suburbs and they are the planting church., but why NW Arkansas? Well, at the time, VA was becoming bluer and more hostile to stuff like anti-gay-marriage campaigns. Living in the DC area makes virtually everybody more conscious of politics.

So seeing his side losing where he was -- and seeing this famous family in Arkansas (with a media reach and following) who might join forces with him -- it seems possible to me that PC went to Arkansas not so much to found a church as to move to an area where he could goose up a political movement in conjunction with the Duggars. As the pastor of a local church, he figured he could enter the area already having some credibility.

Clearly politics must have been somewhere in the back of his mind, at least, in 2010 because he ran in the 2014 Arkansas House elections, with Jim Bob at his side. You don't usually just decide overnight that you want to go to the statehouse,  especially if you move to a new state. You need time to be introduced around and get the support of some locals even to get in a race. 

 

Edited January 17, 2020 by Churchhoney

[Churchhoney]

With regard to complementarianism as embraced by Piper, MacArthur, the Kingdom of Duggar, Chuck Vuolo, probably Jer....etc etc .... 

Here's a Twitter thread I found a while ago from an evangelical (Sojourners variety) and woman of color making a strong argument that the complementarians' claim to biblical authority is horse hockey and that they're just decreeing that the way they want things to be, as a bunch of white guys, is the way God wants it to be, so there....I find it pleasing. 

Also interesting to me that the Seewalds are at least supporting their daughter in having a different view of things now, too, since Vision Forum had a complementarian aura as well....

 

Edited January 19, 2020 by Churchhoney

[Temperance]

Another reason the Caldwells may moved to Arkansas is money. Northern Virginia is becoming more and more expensive. 

[Churchhoney]

25 minutes ago, Temperance said:

Another reason the Caldwells may moved to Arkansas is money. Northern Virginia is becoming more and more expensive. 

True. But there are a lot of places cheaper than Northern Virginia. So I still think it's at the very least interesting that they basically moved right on top of the Duggars! 

Just the way I think it's interesting that Der, Bin and Jer -- and not three non-religio-ambitious guys from outside the Gothard cult -- came hot and heavy after those first three Duggarling women to marry! 

Edited January 19, 2020 by Churchhoney

[GeeGolly]

According to Google:

In 2008, the Caldwell family uprooted from their home to move to Fayetteville, Arkansas, after Paul Caldwell was tasked by Baptist International Missions, Inc. with starting a new church in the district.

According to Joe:

The Caldwells and the Duggars first met in 2012, becoming friends soon after and then began attending Paul Caldwell's church in 2015.

Edited January 19, 2020 by GeeGolly

[Churchhoney]

22 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

According to Google:

In 2008, the Caldwell family uprooted from their home to move to Fayetteville, Arkansas, after Paul Caldwell was tasked by Baptist International Missions, Inc. with starting a new church in the district.

According to Joe:

The Caldwells and the Duggars first met in 2012, becoming friends soon after and then began attending Paul Caldwell's church in 2015.

Google also says this, though, which is what I think is odd about the choice of location: 

"Second most-Baptist state is Arkansas, where 56 percent of all Protestants are Baptist."

https://www.al.com/news/2017/09/3_states_more_baptist_than_ala.html

And that's 56 percent of one of the largest percentages of Protestants in any state. Arkansas is the third most Protestant state in the union, with 76 percent of its population Protestant. 

https://news.gallup.com/poll/167120/mississippi-alabama-protestant-states.aspx

....so according to my math, anyway, 43 percent of Arkansas is already Baptist! 

If you're going on a "mission," it's presumably to convert more people into Baptists. Why then would you choose a state with an extremely high percentage of Baptists already to do that in? Seems to me that about 48 other states would be more likely venues if you're actually looking to add to the total of Baptists, which is what Baptist missionaries generally aim to do...

So I still think it's quite possible and maybe even likely that somebody looked at old home-churchin' famous TeeVee guy Jim Bob out there,....A guy with fame and a following. Strong conservative views. Political experience but a losing record.....And looked at Handsome-Paulie-Caldwell-who-has-political-ambitions and thought....

Hmm... If we hook them up, maybe we could have the beginning of something big. Caldwell, his church and a Baptist missions group could all have seen it that way, once one of them thought of it. 

I don't believe there are a lot of coincidences when it comes to people with ambitions and goals trying to hook up with people who might be willing to leverage their fame to help those ambitions and goals! So I continue to wonder whether this is any more coincidental than it was when the very religio-ambitious Jer, Bin and Der came a'courtin. 😁

Edited January 20, 2020 by Churchhoney

[kokapetl]

GEML wasn’t a liar or a con artist. 

Edited January 30, 2020 by kokapetl

[Westiepeach]

10 minutes ago, kokapetl said:

GEML wasn’t not a liar or a con artist. 

Agreed.

[SMama]

How are you sure? Just playing devil’s advocate. I never thought she was a con artist. But some observations by other posters about her assertions gave me pause. 

[Absolom]

The truth sometimes was only a casual acquaintance, but other than peddling her books I wouldn't say a con artist.  Perhaps it's more accurate to say she oversold her knowledge and experience.

[ozziemom]

Yeah GEML always seemed to know everything about everything. But I don’t think she was a con artist.

[emma675]

I never thought GEML was a con artist, I thought she was a know it all who always had to have the last word. And she seemed very into religion. Wanderwoman was a true con artist. 

I sometimes feel they are still around under different names, but who knows.

Edited January 25, 2020 by emma675d

[doodlebug]

On 1/16/2020 at 8:59 AM, OpieTaylor said:

I've heard about the Amish puppy mills too 😥

My newest pooch comes from a group that buys unwanted pups from the Amish who would otherwise sell them for fighting or kill them.  Amish believe dogs are things and treat them as such.  The get don’t ever spay or neuter.  They’re also fairly lax about letting dogs of different breeds mate; so they often end up with mixed breed pups they can’t sell to the pet stores.

The rescue is run by a vet tech and his wife.  They put ads in the local Amish papers offering to buy unwanted pups.  They take them at 8 weeks and foster them at their home and others.

Edited January 28, 2020 by doodlebug

[GeeGolly]

On 1/19/2020 at 2:32 PM, Churchhoney said:

Google also says this, though, which is what I think is odd about the choice of location: 

"Second most-Baptist state is Arkansas, where 56 percent of all Protestants are Baptist."

https://www.al.com/news/2017/09/3_states_more_baptist_than_ala.html

And that's 56 percent of one of the largest percentages of Protestants in any state. Arkansas is the third most Protestant state in the union, with 76 percent of its population Protestant. 

https://news.gallup.com/poll/167120/mississippi-alabama-protestant-states.aspx

....so according to my math, anyway, 43 percent of Arkansas is already Baptist! 

If you're going on a "mission," it's presumably to convert more people into Baptists. Why then would you choose a state with an extremely high percentage of Baptists already to do that in? Seems to me that about 48 other states would be more likely venues if you're actually looking to add to the total of Baptists, which is what Baptist missionaries generally aim to do...

So I still think it's quite possible and maybe even likely that somebody looked at old home-churchin' famous TeeVee guy Jim Bob out there,....A guy with fame and a following. Strong conservative views. Political experience but a losing record.....And looked at Handsome-Paulie-Caldwell-who-has-political-ambitions and thought....

Hmm... If we hook them up, maybe we could have the beginning of something big. Caldwell, his church and a Baptist missions group could all have seen it that way, once one of them thought of it. 

I don't believe there are a lot of coincidences when it comes to people with ambitions and goals trying to hook up with people who might be willing to leverage their fame to help those ambitions and goals! So I continue to wonder whether this is any more coincidental than it was when the very religio-ambitious Jer, Bin and Der came a'courtin. 😁

There seems to be a fair amount of competition around who Fundys best. With all these little church groups maybe it was more about planting their church and growing their congregation. These churches don't pay for themselves. If that's the case, Arkansas makes total sense.

[GeeGolly]

I go back and forth whether GEML is still here. I'm not sure someone like her could contain her desire to tell tall tales and know everything.

I do think there's one or two posters who post under more than one name though.

Wasn't this GEML's favorite thread? I feel like she was an expert in all things religion. And travel. And writing. And I believe she shared her first masterbation experience as well. An expert in everything.

[xwordfanatik]

Forgive me if this has already been posted.  Amazon Prime is streaming a 3-part series called Gloriavale.  It's about a Fundamental Christian sect In New Zealand.  I thought it was interesting.  

[Lunera]

44 minutes ago, xwordfanatik said:

Forgive me if this has already been posted.  Amazon Prime is streaming a 3-part series called Gloriavale.  It's about a Fundamental Christian sect In New Zealand.  I thought it was interesting.  

I had never heard of it and it and watched the whole thing last week. I fell down the rabbit hole and watched the TEd talk of the leaders daughter who ran away.

[GeeGolly]

Jim Bakker has been selling COVID19 cures. These extreme believers will stoop lower than low.