Gimme That Old Time Religion

[SunnyBeBe]

Are the Bateses still meeting for services at the Holiday Inn Express conference room?  That has been on their site for awhile now.  I can't figure out why they and the Duggars can't just attend a regular church.  What's the deal?  Are they not able to get along with others or too big to receive instruction from others?

[wanderwoman]

Because, normal churches probably separated by age for Sunday School and that is a big no no in quiverful circles.

[Ivy26]

Yeah, I never understood that either.  Gothard made a killing with ALERT Academies and Journey to the Heart stuff.  Why not just open a few mega churches?  And why would separating by age be such a bad thing?  Hell, it would be the easiest way to get the kids married off

[Absolom]

The not being separated by age is huge with family integrated churches. Not all families that subscribe to quiverful are also into the family integrated approach. Patriarchy comes in with slight variations. Gothard was selling his products to churches for a long time and still offers the seminars and such to be held at churches. He began his "ministry" before the mega churches started taking off so maybe he thought he had enough to control already without trying to take on running churches, too.

[DangerousMinds]

I don't understand the separating by age groups in general. I was raised Catholic and the whole family attends mass each week together. Any religious teachings or classes are separate from church attendance.

[Lillybee]

Exactly, but then some of the time, my sister and myself went to Mass without our parents which might be very wrong in fundie circles.

[Ivy26]

Exactly, but then some of the time, my sister and myself went to Mass without our parents which might be very wrong in fundie circles.

Might be?!  Heavens woman, you might have been seduced/made to try drugs/robbed/killed/independent thought all because you went to church without a male present.  What were you thinking?!  (total sarcasm here)

[mbutterfly]

I don't understand the separating by age groups in general. I was raised Catholic and the whole family attends mass each week together. Any religious teachings or classes are separate from church attendance.

But I assume you had instruction with other children approximately your own age at some point. I believe that is where Gothardism differs. And most churches have some sort of "coming of age" teaching as well as youth groups, I think. 

[wanderwoman]

I don't understand the separating by age groups in general. I was raised Catholic and the whole family attends mass each week together. Any religious teachings or classes are separate from church attendance.

In most Southern Baptist Conference congregations, there is a half hour main service, then groups and/or Sunday school, where moms may go to a moms Bible Study, kids to age level Sunday School, and other subgroups.  ATI says that this isn't family promoting and could be "dangerous" since mom and dad aren't hearing the different messages and lessons the kids are getting.  It's a control thing.   Usually, these families group up and have church and fellowship with like-minded folk.  You never know about that divorced mom at the Baptist Church, y'know, her kids might have a bad influence on your kids.  

[mythoughtis]

The separate Sunday school is also done in the Presbyterian and Methodist churches.  Presbyterians also have 'Children's Church'. The children stay with the parents in the sanctuary thru the opening of the service until just before the sermon. There is a very short story told to the children and then they leave for the fellowship hall.  That way they don't have to sit thru 20-25 minutes of the sermon.

[mbutterfly]

The separate Sunday school is also done in the Presbyterian and Methodist churches.  Presbyterians also have 'Children's Church'. The children stay with the parents in the sanctuary thru the opening of the service until just before the sermon. There is a very short story told to the children and then they leave for the fellowship hall.  That way they don't have to sit thru 20-25 minutes of the sermon.

We United Methodist do much the same. Commonly there is a Children's Message during the worship and then the children go to Children's Church. 

[Ivy26]

Yeah, the Lutheran group I grew up with had us with the parents until right after the Gospel reading, the pastor did a children's sermon, then we were either dismissed to Sunday School or we could sit back with our parents.  Our sermon and the lesson was a watered down adult version. 

These people drive me nuts.  They expect their kids with them at all times, but then expect them to have enough socialization skills to land a spouse.  Du fuq?

[Lillybee]

One doesn't need socialization skills to land the spouse that Daddy picks out for them.

[Rhondinella]

The separate Sunday school is also done in the Presbyterian and Methodist churches.  Presbyterians also have 'Children's Church'. The children stay with the parents in the sanctuary thru the opening of the service until just before the sermon. There is a very short story told to the children and then they leave for the fellowship hall.  That way they don't have to sit thru 20-25 minutes of the sermon.

 

 

Yep.  This is how my church does it as well.  I'm from a relatively little-known church called Church of the Nazarene, which historically was begun as a reform movement within the Methodist church, so is basically Methodist in beliefs and some practices.  

 

I've never heard of the idea of the whole family going to Sunday School, or Bible class, or whatever you call the religious education portion, together.  Adults and kids have very different needs in that area.

[Bella]

 

I'm from a relatively little-known church called Church of the Nazarene,

::waves hand:: There's a congregation in my hometown. Small, but present.

 

I grew up Catholic and went to a Catholic grade school, all in a rural area. My experience was to be taught grade-appropriate religion classes during the week, attend Mass during the week with the other schoolchildren, and attend Mass with the whole family on Sunday. We kids heard the adult sermon on Sundays, which ... I think it would have made more sense to send us off to our own "thing," but we were super-saturated with religion already, or so I felt.

[zebra2013]

I'm Nazarene, too, and my kids go to their own age group.  But we went to a PCA (conservative Presbyterian) church in the DC area and when we moved to a smaller Midwestern town looking for a church home, we called the local PCA and they were very strict and said "we don't require homeschooling by our members but...." and had only integrated church service/classes where kids do not separate from the parents at all during the service.  My son has autism, if we didn't send him to his own age group, we would never go to church because he can't hardly handle being quiet and still for the first half of the service he has to sit through--and it has singing and stuff going on that is "noisier" than the sermon half.

[mbutterfly]

Yep.  This is how my church does it as well.  I'm from a relatively little-known church called Church of the Nazarene, which historically was begun as a reform movement within the Methodist church, so is basically Methodist in beliefs and some practices.  

 

I've never heard of the idea of the whole family going to Sunday School, or Bible class, or whatever you call the religious education portion, together.  Adults and kids have very different needs in that area.

Though I am myself a Methodist, I had to smile at your description of the Nazarene Church because we have several large Nazarene Churches in the city where I live. Two friends, sisters, had a father who was the pastor at one that is very large and beautiful inside. I agree that it seems to be a Gothard made-up idea and not spelled out in scripture at all. There is some indication in the first century church that there were separate worship settings for men and women, for one example -- or at least that women sat separately along with the younger children. 

[Rhondinella]

I think two sounds like a good idea.  Cause we are getting off topic in here.  I mean, stuff that's acceptable to be discussed, but just not in this thread.

 

Though I am myself a Methodist, I had to smile at your description of the Nazarene Church

 

 

Well, I have learned not to assume that people have heard of the Nazarenes.  I've been places (both in this country and Europe) where when you mention it people think it's a cult, so . . . .

[smittykins]

I think two sounds like a good idea.  Cause we are getting off topic in here.  I mean, stuff that's acceptable to be discussed, but just not in this thread.

 

 

Well, I have learned not to assume that people have heard of the Nazarenes.  I've been places (both in this country and Europe) where when you mention it people think it's a cult, so . . . .

 My town used to have a Church of the Nazarene, but it disbanded several years ago(I assume too small a congregation to keep it going financially).

My Episcopal church has a fairly small number of children, so we have "Fun Day School" every other Tuesday after school.  I recall one of our parishioners saying that when he was growing up, only the young kids attended Sunday School, with the older ones attending religious education during the week much like Catholic CCD classes.

[Bella]

 

Catholic CCD classes.

Oh, thanks for reminding me of those. And the time I asked the instructor why we weren't focusing on taking our religion out into the world and, you know, helping the disadvantaged and stuff instead of parrotting the same thing we'd been taught every day for Eight. Whole. Years. of grade school. And the time the instructor freaked out. And the time the priest called me on the phone right after that and yelled at me. And the time my dad got on the upstairs phone extension and yelled back at the priest like a lion protecting his cub. And the time the priest cancelled classes for the rest of the year. And the time a year later when we had a whole new group of instructors - including my dad - and a workbook on how to live your religion and be a good example out in the world and help the disadvantaged and stuff like that.

 

Good times! Good times indeed!

 

I'm still waiting for the Duggars to do something charitable for others in an act that doesn't also smack of self-promotion and smugness.

[mbutterfly]

Oh, thanks for reminding me of those. And the time I asked the instructor why we weren't focusing on taking our religion out into the world and, you know, helping the disadvantaged and stuff instead of parrotting the same thing we'd been taught every day for Eight. Whole. Years. of grade school. And the time the instructor freaked out. And the time the priest called me on the phone right after that and yelled at me. And the time my dad got on the upstairs phone extension and yelled back at the priest like a lion protecting his cub. And the time the priest cancelled classes for the rest of the year. And the time a year later when we had a whole new group of instructors - including my dad - and a workbook on how to live your religion and be a good example out in the world and help the disadvantaged and stuff like that.

 

Good times! Good times indeed!

 

I'm still waiting for the Duggars to do something charitable for others in an act that doesn't also smack of self-promotion and smugness.

Wow, good for you, Bella. And what a great dad! I sort of give the Duggars a little leeway on that because how could they film a charitable act and not be self-promoting. On the other hand, I personally don't get the sense JB and Michelle do a lot of good in secret. 

[Wordsworth]

In my nondenominational Christian church, we have children's programming and teen groups.  Our bulletins encourage people to take advantage of these programs as the kids will be much happier there where there's music, games and age-appropriate lessons, rather than in the service.

 

This thread is a very good idea.  Understanding the Duggars must include understanding the philosophy behind their worldview.

 

 

[smittykins]

Catholic CCD classes

 

Growing up Protestant in a state which allows Catholic students to be dismissed early from public schools to attend CCD, I always wondered what went on in those classes, especially since my church attendance at the time was slim to none for various reasons.  I probably should've just been thankful we non-Catholics got to go to the gym and play dodgeball for the rest of the day.

[DangerousMinds]

LMAO! I lived in a city called Centerville, and as kids we called CCD "Centerville City Dump".

[Wordsworth]

 

Are they not able to get along with others or too big to receive instruction from others?

 

 

Home churches, where you are the one in charge, not a minister, limit the # of opportunities for a Christian who does not follow the movement has to expose you to teachings that are contrary to the beliefs of the movement.  There are tons of churches out there that were infilitrated by the IBLP anyway and either fell apart in splits or had a very hard time eliminating it from their teaching.

 

http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2014/01/a-pastors-confession/

 

To further this limited instruction and exposure to other views, Bill Gothard discourages college.  Not just secular college.  As I understand it, Christian schools & colleges are often considered worse.  The only reason I can speculate is that he fears that the young people who've grown up in his organization will end up at a Christian college that requires them to take a Bible class that will punch holes in his lifestyle guidelines.

 

In fact, there are some IBLP families that are sending their kids to college anyway and that's exactly what is happening.  The kids are coming home, showing them the Bible and explaining how the scriptures that Gothard claims support his philosophies of home & family really don't have anything to do with it.  

 

 

[Bella]

Sounds like a cult.

[Wordsworth]

It does have many cultish aspects to it.  That's become controversial because IBLP really only has the amount of control over a person's life that a person lets it have.  Of course that's true of many cults, but there's no communal living requirement in IBLP/ATI the way there is in the more recognizable cults.  In those groups, the constant control of one's life is made possible through communal living.  In IBLP, that surveillance is carried out by the family itself on the individual members, specifically husband over wife, parents over children.  Naturally, the children have no say over how much control IBLP has over their life until they become adults and are able to get out of it.

 

http://www.recoveringgrace.org/2012/06/i-just-want-to-be-normal/

 

 

[Skittl1321]

I have a neighbor who is some sort of evangelical pastor and his church meets in a hotel, a gymnasium, and a bar. (They have like 6 services each Sunday, in different cities.) The bar is the student group- it is near campus, it is somewhere that it is easy to attract non-church goers too.  Apparently they even take up a tip collection to give to the staff, since there have to be staff there since they rent the room, but they do not order food or drink.

 

They do not have plans to build a permanent church.  Meeting in hotels means they can either find bigger conference rooms as they need them, or break off and "plant" a new church in an area that has members who need to be served.  I don't think he is any sort of fringe religion really- his kids are homeschooled until middle school, but then go to public school. They seem like normal, well adjusted kids.  The oldest daughter and his wife often wear long skirts, but they wear pants and shorts too.  I'm sure they believe in Quiverful as the bible states it- as they have a giant bundle of children; but I don't think it is a cult the way ATI seems to be.  (For one- he's in a "Christian Rock Band".)

 

So meeting at the Holiday Inn doesn't make it weird. The fact that ATI is just a weird controlling cult is what makes them weird.

[Carolyn15]

Because of their beliefs and teaching of the Church.. 

I know the ladies and girls wear dresses and skirts all the time and have special kind of swim wear. But I have often wondered what do they wear to bed?  Do they keep the modesty clothing then as well?   I know that sounds like a very odd and maybe some what bizarre question,but I am just curious.. 

[Lillybee]

Since women are required to make their husbands happy in bed, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if Mullet has a stash of Victoria's Secret or Fredrick's of Hollywood nightwear in her room.

[floridamom]

Oh, my eyes, my eyes!!! LillyBee, thanks for that visual of Michelle in Victoria's Secret lingerie..I wonder if they provide ample coverage for her incontinence appliance? After all those kids, she leaks everywhere, I'm sure...Ok, please pass the brain bleach....

[bk10]

Sorry to jump in late on the topic, I was raised in Haiti as part of the Church of God. When we moved here to America, we joined the same church branch again. We were required to wear skirts, keep our hair a certain way, and although women in America pierce their ears, that was not allowed back in Haiti. 

 

My dad had changed to 7th Day Adventist, and I ended up making the switch with him. Same rules applied, no piercings, no pants (although most people wore it outside of church, but def not at church), and strict observance of the Sabbath like the Jews. For both, the kids had separate Sunday/Sabbath school to learn about God age appropriately. There were different programs to indoctrinate us into the religion. 7th Day Adventists have the Adventurer and Pathfinder program which is like girl/boy scouts in which we are basically taught everything about the religion and why it's the best, while learning how to camp and survive in the wilderness because before Jesus comes back, society will be destroyed and we will have to go up in the mountains and be able to survive. They say that any kid can join even if they are not part of the religion, but to reach the top levels of the program you have to baptized. A lot of people think the 7th Day Adventists are a cult and while my dad is still in it, and I met my best friends and made some of the best memories in my life through them, I can see it. We all have to act a certain way, dress a certain way, even eat a certain way and not because Jesus said so, but because this "Prophet" Ellen G White said so. 

[LazyToaster]

I grew up in a fundamental and fairly conservative church.  As an adult my family gravitated to more of a charismatic experience and ended up in an Assembly of God congregation back in the early 80's.  The church was just regular fundie - no real clothing rules etc.  It grew over the years and then began to sort of step a bit "off the beaten path" in terms of teaching and doctrine.  Not that I noticed it much then - it was gradual and I guess it seemed ok. 

 

The church broke away from the denomination and went off on it's own at that point.  All these years later that seems like a big fat red flag to me, but again - it was part of our life and we just believed it was right.  What parts did make people question was explained away.  Over time it became very patriarchal in teaching and without going into a lot of boring detail - the teaching and beliefs just went way off base.  I know that there were indiscretions and problems within the church that were ignored and/or covered up.  The ministers - all men -  were totally useless in helping or dealing with any situation that was difficult.  Anyone that disagreed just left.  By the end of the 80's I was one of those people. 

 

I never looked back and have rarely attended any church after that.  My basic beliefs are somewhat intact and when I'm with extended family members that are still active in their churches I'm fine - I can be respectful and bow my head when they have a prayer before meals etc., but part of me inside still gets my back up and I sometimes think "oh hell no - nobody is ever running my life again". 

 

Was it a cult?  I suppose not really, but some of the aspects were there - control, men only in places of power, an undefined but clear hierarchy, rules not enforced but strongly encouraged, etc.   The biggest one was the whole thought process that says we are right and everyone else is just wrong.  Never again...

[DangerousMinds]

I am an atheist now, raised Catholic. Even as a kid, I remember asking my mom "how do you know this religion is the one?" when there are so many other religions out there that we know little to nothing about. It's just tradition for my parents, I guess. Doesn't work for me at all.

[Lillybee]

Dangerous Minds, I also was raised Catholic. I remember that in high school one of the nuns told us that since the HRC had nuns and priests. I raised my hand and told her, so did the Buddists. Poor thing, she really was at a loss for words.

[Rhondinella]

Hey guys!  Thanks for posting and being active.  We appreciate having you here.  But let's try to keep the discussion of your own personal religious/church experiences to things directly relevant to the Duggars and/or the show, OK?  I don't want this to become a thread where people just air their ids about religious experiences in general.  Thanks.

[Micks Picks]

I don't know what you are talking about if you use acronyms and never define them.  Is it possible to have an acronym thread?   By jove, that sounds like a great idea.

[Rhondinella]

I'm not sure what acronyms you are referring to, Micks.  Help me out.

[Rebekah]

Rhondiella - I think Micks means in you previous post you put "ids" which I'm assuming means ideas, but it's not that clear, correct me if I'm wrong

[Bella]

"Id" is a term from psychology, Freudian psychology to be precise: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id,_ego_and_super-ego . Airing one's id means telling about whatever is on your mind.

 

In any case, Rhondinella is lead mod here and would like to keep any further religion discussion tied to the Duggars and the show. If you want to just talk about your experience with religion, we have a nifty Everything Else section where you can start a thread and chat away.

[bigskygirl]

JB is loosening up and starting to see the light about Gothard, IMO. A few years ago, no way he would have allowed one of his daughters to court and marry a college-educated, non-ATI man with facial hair and blue jeans, whose mom is a working woman with a master's degree! Once you start to admit a leader isn't infallible, there's a crack in the dam, and before long, whoosh!  Mullet still has blinders on...

Just because Jill ended up with Derrick does not mean JimBoob is seeing what really is going on behind the Gothard movement. He would be nothing without Gothard, and he loves being respected and admired (gag) in the movement. He is not willing to give up and become another joe smith regular guy. He believes in what he quotes to the masses.

 

In my opinion, he luck out with Jill and Derrick. He can say to the rest of us he is *allowing* one of his daughters to marry a man with a college education and is not blindly follow the Gothard movement to the letter. He is capitalizing on his daughter's happiness and it is paying off for him big time. He is can be an ass to Bin/Ben and Jessa all he wants because Ben/Bin and his family see the fame and dollar signs by hooking up with one of the great Duggars. Jessa, in my opinion, may be getting a bad deal, but she may have found a way to escape the compound. Anna's father was all happy about handing her over to Smuggar, but Derrick's family may not thrilled about him marrying into the Duggar clan.

Edited June 2, 2014 by bigskygirl

[Vincom]

Gil Bates, as a member of the BOD for IBLP, is going to be in on what the investigation of Gothard reveals. Two of the board members have already resigned. As JB's buddy, he's going to hear some tales that will curl his toes. Mark my words, this is going to be a turning point for the Duggars.

[RazzleberryPie]

I think JimBob already has seen the light with Gothard, and is backing off somewhat. He hasn't renounced him on the Today show, but he has loosened up some with the courting rules, clothing choices, etc.

I do wonder if this new freedom will confuse or anger some of the kids, like when you see FLDS moms try to escape, and some kids are so ingrained they just can't leave, while others leave but see scarred for life.

[Micks Picks]

What is IBLP  or BOD, for that matter?

[maraleia]

Here ya go Micks Picks http://iblp.org/

BOD equals Board of Directors.

[Almost 3000]

Micks Picks

These are the programs that Bill Gothard has been running since the 60s. The programs were very successful but are currently experiencing decline.
IBLP: The Institute in Basic Life Principles was established for the purpose of introducing people to the Lord Jesus Christ, and is dedicated to giving clear instruction and training on how to find success by following God’s principles found in Scripture.
ATI: The Advanced Training Institute International (ATI) is a home education program that provides curriculum and training to support parents in raising their children to love the Lord Jesus Christ, reason wisely based on the principles of Scripture, have world-changing purpose in life, and give Biblical answers to the needs of our day
BOD: Board of Directors
While most of the followers do home church or go to conservative Baptist congregations all homeschool their kids using Bill's curriculum and attend his programs.

[Lillybee]

The thing that bothers me about the Duggars and their ilk is their dependance in patriarchy.

 

https://www.princeton.edu/~achaney/tmve/wiki100k/docs/Patriarchy.html

 

Also those who want to return our country to biblical principals interperted by themselves.

[Vincom]

Gothard has always been controversial among biblical Christians. Many of his teachings are Old Testament-based and/or teachings he made up himself. There are rules for everything - what to eat, how to treat illnesses (really goofy), what to wear, how to apply makeup, why people shouldn't adopt children, etc. Children should not attend colleges and must wait until they are married to move away from home, etc. But on top of this, he's never married or had children of his own, and he's long been known to engage in inappropriate activities with young ladies who come to work at his Institute. He's finally being investigated, and he resigned from IBLP in March. Many of his "disciples" are still in denial about him, but eyes are slowly being opened.

[Ripley68]

What does the Duggards religion say about infertility in a man?  Will they let people get tested for that?  I can't see them agreeing to men doing it was necessary to get a sperm sample.  Can women be tested and treated? If so, isn't that contradicting the whole, "we're going with what God gives us?"

[mbutterfly]

Gothard has always been controversial among biblical Christians. Many of his teachings are Old Testament-based and/or teachings he made up himself. There are rules for everything - what to eat, how to treat illnesses (really goofy), what to wear, how to apply makeup, why people shouldn't adopt children, etc. Children should not attend colleges and must wait until they are married to move away from home, etc. But on top of this, he's never married or had children of his own, and he's long been known to engage in inappropriate activities with young ladies who come to work at his Institute. He's finally being investigated, and he resigned from IBLP in March. Many of his "disciples" are still in denial about him, but eyes are slowly being opened.

I am truly respectful of people who are of the various holiness traditions. They truly try to live their faith as they see it. All I can read about Gothardism seems so off-track from any theological base I can imagine.