Gimme That Old Time Religion

[Zella]

Individual churches also can deviate pretty strongly from the denominational message. For instance, the Methodist church in Fayetteville is way more tolerant in their teachings about the LGBT community than the actual UMC is. I have a friend who is a very active member of that congregation, and she was really angered by the official UMC statement about gay marriage. (I just checked and apparently the UMC is likely headed for an actual split over the issue?) In any event, when they released that statement, she wrote a very impassioned post on FB talking about how she appreciated how her congregation was in opposition to the leadership on this issue. 

I think as with many things, people's motivations for attending church and the actual practices in individual churches vary so much that I am hesitant to assume too much about it without more information on each case-by-case basis. 

I personally have not experienced the "pastors only preach what their congregation wants to hear" thing. I've sat through some really awkward sermons that nobody wanted to hear. Some of them justified. Some of them not. (Like a really passive-aggressive one about gluttony that I am pretty sure was aimed directly at the pastor's wife and some select women in the church. That dude was an asshole.) 

My personal experience has actually been one of pastors having some really rocky relationships with their congregations. Sometimes the congregation is at fault, sometimes the pastor is, and sometimes they're all equally to blame. 

And it usually leads to a nasty breakup. My grandparents always joke about how "they're [the congregation is] fixing to swarm" when the bust-up is imminent. And to their credit, they don't participate in the contention because they find it unbecoming and, well, un-Christian. But I think for others, it is a great sport! 

Edited May 30, 2021 by Zella

[Jynnan tonnix]

Regarding abortion, there are some verses back in, I think Leviticus, where it's all about rules and regulations, that reads very much as though it endorses abortion. At least, the teaching is basically that if a husband suspects that his pregnant wife has been unfaithful, there is a rite to be followed, culminating in her drinking a potion which, if she has, in fact, been unfaithful, will cause her to miscarry. If that is OK in God's eyes, then obviously there's not something about the very fact of an egg having been fertilized which makes it sacred.

 

[Churchhoney]

21 minutes ago, Zella said:

 

I personally have not experienced the "pastors only preach what their congregation wants to hear" thing.

 

Yeah, I know it goes both ways too. I intended to be talking more about the frequent splits between pastoral/denominational and congregational views than about this particular manifestation of the split. 

I think the "pastors preaching what congregations want to hear" has happened a lot over the past few decades in the more liberal-leaning mainline denominations, and mainly in relationship to a variety of sex-and-gender stuff such as ordination of women (or, more recently, ordination of LBGQT people), which is how I got fixated on this particular kind of church-leader views vs. congregation views split. 

The denominations that have embraced the most "modern" open-minded sex-and-gender approaches have tended to have many of their congregations remain way to the conservative side of them on those issues.

And in those cases, many pastors of those individual churches have mainly stayed off the topic because they knew it would drive people out the pews if they talked about it too much. The United Church of Christ is the main but not the only example of a U.S. denomination that's been way ahead of a lot of their members on LBGQT stuff.....and a fair number of pastors there have walked very softly on that with their congregations, not saying nearly as much about it as the denomination or even the individual pastor would like, in hopes of a)avoiding a schism like the one that seems to be coming now for the UMC and b) seeing society as a whole move far enough in the more open-minded direction to take the congregation along with it.....(which may be happening to at least some degree in some places, anyway...)

The reverse of the issue you're seeing with your friend and the UMC, in other words. 

(Another weird motive behind U.S. denominations'/churches' mixed-up pronouncements on sex-and-gender issues of course is that a lot of churches' overall recruitment in recent years has taken place in Latin America, Africa, and so on. And in many places where churches are trying to beef up their overall membership, sex-and-gender rules remain much ore conservative than they are in the U.S......So.....any church that's involved in international recruitment doesn't want to alienate too many people in the places where new members may come from. I think the mission issue has a lot to do with the UMC's issues with this, doesn't it? _

 

Edited May 30, 2021 by Churchhoney

[Zella]

2 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

Yeah, I know it goes both ways too. I intended to be talking more about the frequent splits between pastoral/denominational and congregational views than about this particular manifestation of the split. 

I think the "pastors preaching what congregations want to hear" has happened a lot over the past few decades in the more liberal-leaning mainline denominations, and mainly in relationship to a variety of sex-and-gender stuff such as ordination of women (or, more recently, ordination of LBGQT people), which is how I got fixated on this particular kind church-leader views vs. congregation views split. 

The denominations that have embraced the most "modern" open-minded sex-and-gender approaches have tended to have many of their congregations remain way to the conservative side of them on those issues.

And in those cases, many pastors of those individual churches have mainly stayed off the topic because they knew it would drive people out the pews if they talked about it too much. The United Church of Christ is the main but not the only example of a U.S. denomination that's been way ahead of a lot of their members on LBGQT stuff.....and a fair number of pastors there have walked very softly on that with their congregations, not saying nearly as much about it as the denomination or even the individual pastor would like, in hopes of a)avoiding a schism like the one that seems to be coming now for the UMC and b) seeing society as a whole move far enough in the more open-minded direction to take the congregation along with it.....(which may be happening to at least some degree in some places, anyway...)

The reverse of the issue you're seeing with your friend and the UMC, in other words. 

 

Yeah I mainly went to a combination of Southern Baptist and Pentecostal and vaguely nondenominational churches when I was a kid, even though I was sometimes going with people who did not identify with the denominations in question. I remember the latter 2 the best, and I just personally observed a lot of antagonism between congregations and their pastors and within congregations in general. Even as a kid, it fascinated me. I actually used to take notes about people's behavior during the services rather than the sermons before my grandmother told me to knock it off. LOLOL

[Scarlett45]

Mod Announcement:

There have been a string of posts that discuss religion but no mention of the Duggars at all. 
 

As a reminder the forum guidelines state if your post is primarily about your experiences and opinions, with little or no mention of the Duggars at all it belongs in Small Talk. 
 

If you wish to discuss religion in general, “hot button issues” such as civil rights, religion, abortion etc Small Talk the appropriate location. 
 

Further off topic posts will be removed.

[GeeGolly]

No it was nothing you said @Jeeves.

I guess I didn't realize how subjective the word mainstream is. In my world, the Duggars are very far from mainstream.

 

 

[Minivanessa]

9 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

No it was nothing you said @Jeeves.

I guess I didn't realize how subjective the word mainstream is. In my world, the Duggars are very far from mainstream.

Oh, I agree. They aren't mainstream at all. I suppose they do reflect what most fundies believe, but I thought the discussion was more about the spectrum of all evangelicals, not just fundies.  My bad. But, it's been an interesting discussion, lol.

[Nysha]

One of the things that has formed my opinion about mainstream vs. fundy is that for most of my adult life I lived in very rural communities. The last one had four churches, Assembly of God, Wesleyan, 7th Day Adventist, and Mormon. It also had 4 bars and you were either a church person or a bar person since all of the churches forbid alcohol. I also went to primarily Pentecostal churches as a child/teen and those are all about rules and speaking in tongues.

Duggar connection: All of these churches preached hard against abortion, homosexuality, and premarital sex. In the Pentecostal churches the rules were more closely aligned with Gothard's but it was the 70s so modest clothes & dresses were still the norm for conservative christians. The last church I went to had classes on the Pearl's child rearing/abuse methods.

Edited May 30, 2021 by Nysha

[Churchhoney]

And now people want to preach against vaccination. God is better than vaccination! Faith means God'll save you! He can do that better than vaccine! 

They really need to think more carefully. 

Just read this depressing thing from some 30-year-old guy who was an avid Hillsong parishioner, and had apparently carried on a Christian Twitter campaign against Covid vaccination

Recently he had this to say, on what he clearly didn't know was his death bed -- On Sunday, three days before his death, Harmon tweeted, “If you don’t have faith that God can heal me over your stupid ventilator then keep the Hell out of my ICU room, there’s no room in here for fear or lack of faith!”

Talk about "I sent two boats and a helicopter." He's a Hillsong College graduate. And they really need more logic classes. 

(Hillsong has said that they're not anti-vax, but they do believe that everybody should make their own personal decision about it.....Which, to my mind, is not as bad a position as it might be but is still dangerously anti-public-health. But, of course, these folks generally don't believe in much that's "public" because people like me are part of the public -- and maybe even worse people like Muslims or, dog forbid, Catholics!)

https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2021/07/23/hillsong-church-stephen-harmon-dies-covid-19-unvaccinated/

I assume the Duggars have been vaccinated. Or at least have all had the disease by now. But if they haven't -- Arkansas is definitely among the states ramping up the cases again. And this is a super-transmissible variety.......This might just be a good time for the Duggars' isolationism to prove that it's a good idea. SODRT will probably be a safer Covid environment for the kids than a reading group at the library or whatever. 

 

Edited July 24, 2021 by Churchhoney

[Cinnabon]

31 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

And now people want to preach against vaccination. God is better than vaccination! Faith means God'll save you! He can do that better than vaccine! 

They really need to think more carefully. 

Just read this depressing thing from some 30-year-old guy who was an avid Hillsong parishioner, and had apparently carried on a Christian Twitter campaign against Covid vaccination

Recently he had this to say, on what he clearly didn't know was his death bed -- On Sunday, three days before his death, Harmon tweeted, “If you don’t have faith that God can heal me over your stupid ventilator then keep the Hell out of my ICU room, there’s no room in here for fear or lack of faith!”

Talk about "I sent two boats and a helicopter." He's a Hillsong College graduate. And they really need more logic classes. 

(Hillsong has said that they're not anti-vax, but they do believe that everybody should make their own personal decision about it.....Which, to my mind, is not as bad a position as it might be but is still dangerously anti-public-health. But, of course, these folks generally don't believe in much that's "public" because people like me are part of the public -- and maybe even worse people like Muslims or, dog forbid, Catholics!)

https://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2021/07/23/hillsong-church-stephen-harmon-dies-covid-19-unvaccinated/

 

I’ve had it with these fools. If they want to take their chances, fine. Stay away from me AND stay away from hospitals and overworked healthcare staff who have already been endangered for 18 months now. Stay home if you get sick.

Edited July 24, 2021 by Cinnabon

[crazy8s]

my mom's Pastor (missouri synod lutheran) was anti vax. He and his entire family got covid early on and recovered so continued to preach the "God saved us without a vaccine" -"we are not changing our behavior"  they had parties all through this pandemic - then came the varients. He died on a vent after 27 days.

Thankfully the congregation of mostly elderly were like screw that idea and most all got the vaccine as soon as the could.

[Spazamanaz]

I am not a very religious person, and I don't claim to know the bible very well. I guess I don't understand how they all can follow one man's interpretation of the bible and other crap. You can give the bible to 10 people and get 10 different interpretations. So which one is right (?). Which is why I have never joined a church.

Those anti vaxers that claim that the Lord will cure them without any help from medicine are just delusional. Maybe if they would just open their minds they could see that the vaccines are the answer. God works through man. 

[Rootbeer]

14 hours ago, Spazamanaz said:

I am not a very religious person, and I don't claim to know the bible very well. I guess I don't understand how they all can follow one man's interpretation of the bible and other crap. You can give the bible to 10 people and get 10 different interpretations. So which one is right (?). Which is why I have never joined a church.

Those anti vaxers that claim that the Lord will cure them without any help from medicine are just delusional. Maybe if they would just open their minds they could see that the vaccines are the answer. God works through man. 

Amen to this.  At my church, the pastor preaches God's love for all mankind, Christ's compassion for everyone he encountered and advises that it is our Christian duty to think of others, especially those with health limitations, and get vaccinated.  He has repeatedly stated, in church, online and in the church bulletin; that, if you're not vaccinated, please stay home or, barring that, wear a mask at least in church.

[lookeyloo]

I am reading "The Year of Living Biblically" by A.J. Jacobs.  It is very interesting.  Not really a religious book although there is religion in it.

[SunnyBeBe]

I can’t believe I started this thread back in 2014!😳 Man, time flies.  So, I’m a little embarrassed that I’m unsure if this post goes here.  It’s a video on Gothard and quite interesting.  It does refer to the Duggar family and show photos and videos  of the family with their TLC logo.  So, I think it’s in the right place.  Pardon me, if it’s already been posted.  

 

Edited July 28, 2021 by SunnyBeBe

[BetyBee]

2 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I can’t believe I started this thread back in 2014!😳 Man, time flies.  So, I’m a little embarrassed that I’m unsure if this post goes here.  It’s a video on Gothard and quite interesting.  It does refer to the Duggar family and show photos and videos  of the family with their TLC logo.  So, I think it’s in the right place.  Pardon me, if it’s already been posted.  

 

Bill Gothard sounds like a total garbage person, who has done so much damage, especially to women and children. Disgusting old coot!

[xwordfanatik]

As I just stated in the Sister Wives forum, I hate any and all cults!  Mind-fucking at its worst!  

19 minutes ago, BetyBee said:

Bill Gothard sounds like a total garbage person, who has done so much damage, especially to women and children. Disgusting old coot!

1,000 times yes.  I listened to the whole video, and it's truly horrible what that pervert has done.  

[charmed1]

Yikes. At 0:14:40, an inset of the four oldest Duggar girls is included in the modesty chapter of the Gothard manual. 

[ChiCricket]

8 hours ago, SunnyBeBe said:

I can’t believe I started this thread back in 2014!😳 Man, time flies.  So, I’m a little embarrassed that I’m unsure if this post goes here.  It’s a video on Gothard and quite interesting.  It does refer to the Duggar family and show photos and videos  of the family with their TLC logo.  So, I think it’s in the right place.  Pardon me, if it’s already been posted.  

 

I just watched this. What a creep😡

And I thought the name of college he went to rang a bell...it's only about 20 minutes from my house.

I found this:

Wheaton College is an evangelical liberal arts college and graduate school in Wheaton, Illinois. It was founded by evangelical abolitionists in 1860. Wheaton College was a stop on the Underground Railroad and graduated one of Illinois' first black college graduates.🤤

 

[madpsych78]

4 hours ago, ChiCricket said:

I just watched this. What a creep😡

And I thought the name of college he went to rang a bell...it's only about 20 minutes from my house.

I found this:

Wheaton College is an evangelical liberal arts college and graduate school in Wheaton, Illinois. It was founded by evangelical abolitionists in 1860. Wheaton College was a stop on the Underground Railroad and graduated one of Illinois' first black college graduates.🤤

 

My sister-in-law went to Wheaton College. She and my brother-in-law are evangelical but are politically very progressive.

[Zella]

What does it say about Wheaton? (It's hard for me to sit through long videos.)

FWIW, I have several former COFO classmates who ended up doing postgraduate coursework in TESOL/TEFL through Wheaton prior to teaching English overseas. They weren't on campus, to the best of my knowledge, but I don't remember them complaining about the program. Certainly not like we did COFO. 😂 That's really all I know about the college, other than that it is usually considered fairly prominent/historic in Christian higher ed. 

[ChiCricket]

1 hour ago, Zella said:

What does it say about Wheaton? (It's hard for me to sit through long videos.)

😂

Nothing much really...just that GotHard went there...and it just made me look it up.  😁

Edited July 29, 2021 by ChiCricket

[Girl in a Cardigan]

Interesting post about sex and purity culture (the Duggars are also name checked - though in the section about the Pearl method of child training):

https://jezebel.com/i-didnt-want-to-deny-my-husband-his-martial-rights-for-1847361950

[Churchhoney]

Hey, it's not just his favorite son. Look which other JB close associate is some sort of abuser. Likely tax-evasion tutor Kent Hovind got hauled in for knocking down his third wife (and possibly having an "associate" threaten to shoot her). 

Great guys, these patriarchy patriots. 

RNS) — A controversial Alabama creationist preacher who recently sued the federal government for half a billion dollars was arrested in late July in a domestic assault case.

An arrest warrant dated July 19 alleges that the Rev. Kent Hovind, known as “Dr. Dino,” intentionally threw his estranged wife, Cindi Lincoln, to the ground, causing bodily harm.  

The same day the arrest warrant was filed, Lincoln also filed a petition for a protective order against Hovind in Conecuh County, Alabama. The petition alleges one of Hovind’s associates threatened Lincoln with a gun in January 2021. The alleged domestic assault occurred in October 2020, according to the petition

Reached by telephone, Hovind, who is out on bail, told Religion News Service he could not comment in detail on the arrest, saying the matter would be resolved in court and that there was “nothing to it.”

After speaking with RNS, Hovind streamed a video on YouTube addressing the charges, saying he had been falsely accused. 

“It’s going to be fine, it’s going to be fine,” he said. “I’m squeaky clean.” 

News of the arrest and the request for a protective order was first posted by Robert Baty, a blogger who has been critical of Hovind. 

https://religionnews.com/2021/08/05/kent-hovind-controversial-creationist-preacher-known-as-dr-dino-arrested-in-domestic-assault-case/

Edited August 5, 2021 by Churchhoney

[Churchhoney]

The Crusade Against Public Health Measures by the ass on whom Jer's lips are planted. 

From facts presented in the second article here (excerpt below), I'd say Macarthur has definitely turned his little institution into one that epitomizes the Compassion?-What's-That? church variety. 

Also in excerpt below -- fun prediction on what's going to happen to the church when MacArthur himself shuffles off. 

The LA Review article is way long but very very interesting on how different kinds of evangelical churches are developing. 

"There is no pandemic": How a LA megachurch became a bastion of evangelical coronavirus denial

Coronavirus denial is by no means universal in Christianity

By ALEX HENDERSON

PUBLISHED AUGUST 18, 2021 6:30AM (EDT)

https://www.salon.com/2021/08/18/there-is-no-pandemic-how-a-la-megachurch-became-a-bastion-of-evangelical-coronavirus-denial_partner/

How the Pandemic Radicalized Evangelicals

August 15, 2021   •   By Jim Hinch

https://lareviewofbooks.org/article/how-the-pandemic-radicalized-evangelicals/

EXCERPT: 

Grace Community Church is an example of such ministerial failure. Though John MacArthur is admired by evangelicals for the influence of his ministry and his adherence to theological fundamentals, former Grace members say the church more resembles a family business presided over by a long-lived patriarch who brooks no opposition to his prerogatives. For members who agree with MacArthur’s approach, that arrangement works just fine. For others, the top-down structure creates what Roberto van Dalen, a former Grace Church deacon, called “a toxic church environment” and an “us versus them” leadership culture. Van Dalen said many church members and leaders are afraid to disagree with MacArthur because “if you get blacklisted, you lose everything.” Another former member, who asked to be identified only as Gregory, said elders and other church leaders told him they are forbidden from speaking publicly about church affairs without MacArthur’s permission and have been asked to sign non-disclosure agreements as a condition of employment. “They may disapprove of a lot that is going on, but they’re now an older staff who need the job,” Gregory said. “They couldn’t ever risk speaking to someone.”

The focus on MacArthur’s authority and star power weakened Grace’s ability to respond to the pandemic. Grace is what is known as a “commuter church.” In 2015, Swanson, the former Master’s Seminary administrator, was asked to write a report about Grace’s future prospects for growth. “I said the demographics are bad here,” Swanson said he told church leaders:

Sixty-seven percent of Grace Church attendees live more than 30 miles from the church. […] They’re coming to hear John MacArthur and when that ends they’re not going to drive that far. I would estimate the church will decline 40 to 60 percent when John MacArthur is not there.

Under MacArthur’s leadership, Grace has become almost wholly disconnected from the community surrounding it. Just 18 percent of residents in the Sun Valley neighborhood of Los Angeles are white, according to Census figures. A majority were born in Mexico and El Salvador. The median age is 28. Grace does not publish the demographic characteristics of its congregation, but video footage of sermons shows a mostly white, older audience. Of 40 senior leaders listed on the church’s website, all but three are white. “I don’t tend to notice people of color” attending Grace, said Judith Poppe, who has lived around the corner from the church and watched members walk to the sanctuary from their cars for 47 years.

In a January sermon, MacArthur spotlighted some of Grace Church’s accomplishments during the pandemic. Atop his list was holding in-person services in defiance of local authorities and suing Los Angeles County. To address community needs, MacArthur said Grace donated orchids to local police stations, celebrated a police officer’s retirement, gave away $70,000 worth of food to families in the congregation, distributed MacArthur’s books in prisons, and protested outside an abortion clinic. For comparison, I inquired about pandemic outreach at Mariners Church, a megachurch in nearby Orange County similar in size to Grace that for years has prioritized local service work. Chief Content Officer Cathi Workman told me that Mariners provided childcare for essential workers, offered workspace and technology assistance to families adapting to online school, delivered more than 1,000,000 meals, held blood drives, and helped to provide services for local adults with special needs. Workman said Mariners complied with local health orders and sought to keep politics out of pandemic ministries. “I see most churches just honestly, humbly trying to navigate an era that no one has seen before,” she said. “A lot of creativity is emerging.”

 

Edited August 18, 2021 by Churchhoney

[crazy8s]

 

Liberty University pivots to virtual classes amid coronavirus outbreak

A sharp rise in positive cases and limited hospital capacity led the school to take additional safety measures. Other colleges have also made changes in response to test results.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2021/08/30/liberty-university-covid-virtual-quarantine/

 

[CalicoKitty]

I still get emails on the doings at the church I attended before I moved.  It was an American Anglican Church (I was in charge of all the music).  They are starting a new Bible study based on the book of John.  The text they are using was written by---John AcArthur.  The priest they have now is a former Baptist missionary, so I guess he is familiar with, and likes, McArthur's writing.  I'm glad I moved.

[awaken]

Thought you guys would enjoy this one.

This pastor will sign a religious exemption for vaccines if you donate to his church

https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2021/09/15/pastor-donate-vaccine-religious-exemption/?utm_campaign=wp_main&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR2vTIt3Xi5ybWRcmT6zIDlwu5Pefr9rE87AeICIkkJPch5myPc0wya9Aa4

“I’m willing to sign it no matter what,” he said. “But I want it to have weight. In order for it to carry any weight, you have to be an online member of our church.”

[crazycatlady58]

40 minutes ago, awaken said:

Thought you guys would enjoy this one.

This pastor will sign a religious exemption for vaccines if you donate to his church

https://www.washingtonpost.com/religion/2021/09/15/pastor-donate-vaccine-religious-exemption/?utm_campaign=wp_main&utm_medium=social&utm_source=facebook&fbclid=IwAR2vTIt3Xi5ybWRcmT6zIDlwu5Pefr9rE87AeICIkkJPch5myPc0wya9Aa4

“I’m willing to sign it no matter what,” he said. “But I want it to have weight. In order for it to carry any weight, you have to be an online member of our church.”

I am sure Jesus is pleased. / sarcastic font/

[Rootbeer]

Anyone looking for an interesting doc on the Amish and what they believe might want to check out The Amish and the Reformation on Amazon.  The narrator is a former old order Amish member and he goes through the Protestant reformation and its roots as well as the splits within the reformation that begat various Protestant sects, one of which was the Anabaptists who begat the OE Amish.  He gives a pretty clear and understandable summary of those events including why some Protestants, such as the Amish; believe that it takes works as well as faith to get to heaven while others, such as the Duggars, and most Evangelicals, ignore the part about doing good works.

Although he is no longer Amish, the guy is still a Christian and makes his POV known, so don't expect a takedown of organized religion.  His father was an Old Order Amish preacher and his mother's discussion about just how the Amish choose men from the congregation for this job was really interesting-and kinda weird, too.  His father was eventually excommunicated from the Old Order Amish because he read the Bible on his own in English instead of the Old German, the only version the church sanctions, and had the nerve to tell people that he preferred reading in a language he actually used; sorta like Martin Luther in the original reformation.  Just like Latin, the language of the Bible in Luther's time; Old German is no longer a spoken language and the only place anyone encounters it, including the Amish, is in their Bible.  They speak Pennsylvania Dutch, an entirely different language, along with English. So, history repeats itself.

Anyway, it's a quick watch, less than an hour, and I found it very informative.

Edited October 10, 2021 by Rootbeer

[CalicoKitty]

Thanks @Rootbeer.  That was very interesting.  History certainly is repeating  itself.  My grandmother's Bible was in Old German, but she was born in the 1880's, and she spoke,  read and wrote Old German.  One of my uncles was a Lutheran missionary in New Guinea for over 30 years and did translate part of the New Testament into Pidgin.  I'm not sure if there is a complete Pidgin Bible.

 

[awaken]

Sound interesting, @Rootbeer- I’ll check it out. 

[lookeyloo]

We just watched “Marketing the Messiah” on Amazon Prime. Fascinating 

[GeeGolly]

Did y'all know the second Sunday in October is Pastor Appreciation Day? Its been a thing since 1992.

Odd (not really), but I don't recall the Duggars ever recognizing any pastor on Pastor Appreciation Day. Maybe I missed it? 🤔

[CalicoKitty]

 

11 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

Did y'all know the second Sunday in October is Pastor Appreciation Day? Its been a thing since 1992.

Odd (not really), but I don't recall the Duggars ever recognizing any pastor on Pastor Appreciation Day. Maybe I missed it? 🤔

This is so ironical.  Last Sunday was the 2nd Sunday in October.  The pastor at a church where I used to live walked out on his parish and left them high and dry last  Sunday, taking some members with him.  I doubt there was much "appreciation" on anyone's mind.

And, no, I have never heard or seen the Duggars appreciate anyone that is not a "sweet friend".

[Cinnabon]

Longish read but very interesting 

The Evangelical Church Is Breaking Apart

Christians must reclaim Jesus from his church.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/10/evangelical-trump-christians-politics/620469/

Edited October 24, 2021 by Cinnabon

[lookeyloo]

2 hours ago, Cinnabon said:

Longish read but very interesting 

The Evangelical Church Is Breaking Apart

Christians must reclaim Jesus from his church.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2021/10/evangelical-trump-christians-politics/620469/

Also read "Costly Grace" by Rob Schenck

https://smile.amazon.com/Costly-Grace-Evangelical-Ministers-Rediscovery/dp/006268793X/ref=smi_www_rco2_go_smi_g4368549507?_encoding=UTF8&*Version*=1&*entries*=0&ie=UTF8

I found it at the Dollar Tree

[sagittarius sue]

Thank you for linking that excellent article Cinnabon.  It mentions a situation which occurred in Minneapolis at Bethlehem Baptist, John Piper's home church.  Three pastors resigned, citing the toxic climate principally led by the often reactionary Council of Elders.  Here's an article on that; I don't know if the paywall will block it for you.  https://www.startribune.com/3-pastors-leave-bethlehem-baptist-church-one-citing-toxic-culture/600087938/?refresh=true

[awaken]

On 10/4/2021 at 7:29 PM, CouchTater said:

Leaving Eden is a good podcast that just released an episode about JillRod and crew.  We already know and have discussed most of what they cover, but it's interesting to hear their spin on them.
https://podcastaddict.com/episode/129356578

I've been loving this podcast!  Have learned SO much.  It's been fascinating to learn more background on the cult the Duggars, Rods, and others are in/came from.  I grew up in the periphery of it, but getting deep into the history has been illuminating, and a trainwreck I can't turn away from.  They just did a big episode on Vision Forum and Doug Phillips.  The pervasive, ongoing excusing of sexual offenders is sickening.  Josh Duggar is just a very small tip of the iceberg.  It seems absolutely endemic.

I wonder if the host posts here- a lot of what she says is very similar in wording to what is said here!  Although maybe there is a common lingo among fundy snark boards (I'm not on any of the other ones regularly- I depend on the rest of you to bring over news from FJ and Reddit :-). She didn't know who Ben was married, to, though, or which courting couple was present at the mini-golf humping incident, so that made me wonder...none of us here would ever forget that!  ;-)

[CouchTater]

@awaken, the host recently did an AMA (Ask Me Anything) on Reddit.  If I can find the link I'll post it here.

 

Here's the link to the AMA.

Edited October 27, 2021 by CouchTater

[Churchhoney]

I brought this over from the Duggalos. 

 

Cinnabon wrote --

So no one knows if they are saved or not, no matter what they’ve done or how they’ve acted on earth. So if it turns out I was one of the “chosen” ones and I spent this life as a murderer and a thief, it wouldn’t matter in the end, because I was chosen? This seems like an excuse to partake in whatever I want in this life, no matter how horrible and “sinful.” Am I misinterpreting this?

 

Well, the misinterpretation lies in the idea of what theology is, We tend to assume that Calvin came up with this scheme because he thought it was a good idea of some kind.  Like a good idea to get people to behave virtuously. Like it's somehow Calvin's scheme for conducting a helpful religion. But that's not at all what theology is. Theology is the way a particular scholar concludes things actually work in the biggest scheme of things, based on his analysis of Christianity's ancient foundational texts.  It's something like deriving laws from physics from your measurements of how objects behave. Theologians are trying out what principles may lie behind what they observe in the world and what they read in old books that they believe came from God.

Calvin also writes hundreds and hundreds (possibly thousands) of pages about virtues and how to conduct oneself. And he certainly believes that God and Jesus believe in virtues and he absolutely urges people to behave virtuously and ethically. 

But he concludes that these are two separate things --- There are principles for good behavior and evidence that God and Jesus believe in good behavior.......  And there is also his observation that nobody knows in this lifetime whether they're saved or not.

Those two things aren't linked in some kind of logical way -- "Ooooh!! I don't know if I'm saved, so I can murder and still maybe be saved! Woohoo!" if somebody concludes that, then they're just a jerk, in Calvin's opinion. He concludes that God believes in and values virtues and ethics -- but he can't conclude that God rewards Behavior A with Reward A and punishes Behavior B with Punishment B.........Because his reading tells him that nobody human ever can know in life how that works out in the huge godly scheme of things. 

Calvin's theological analysis also makes him believe that God is the most important thing in the universe. And that he made us and gave us everything we have. So since God cares about virtue and ethics, then he believes we all should. 

A lot of what Calvin is pointing to is the fact that much in the spiritual universe is unknowable to us........including the particulars of how people get judged and damned or judged and saved.........And he argues that therefore it's ultimately ridiculous and unreasonable to do what the Catholic church was doing at the time -- selling pardons for certain behaviors --- i.e., acting as if humans could know how divine justice played out. Making it into a transaction between us and an almighty and all-encompassing God...... 

Unfortunately, it's way too easy to trivialize theology and misunderstand and misjudge it because we take out one thing or two and don't ever look at them in context and see how they play into the big picture that somebody like Calvin is seeing. ...,,,, 

When somebody is considered a great theologian or philosopher after hundreds or thousands of years, it's always a mistake to think we can adequately judge and understand or accept or dismiss what they're saying without looking deeply into them and following the context and understanding where their ideas came from. When we do flybys based on a few statements taken entirely out of context, we necessarily miss a lot of stuff that's worth pondering. 

And I say this as an atheist! It doesn't help at all to have idiots and people pursuing their own agendas as pastors and preachers! Theological questions will never be anything I'd trust Bin or Jer with, for example! 

 

Edited November 13, 2021 by Churchhoney

[Cinnabon]

8 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

I brought this over from the Duggalos. 

 

Cinnabon wrote --

So no one knows if they are saved or not, no matter what they’ve done or how they’ve acted on earth. So if it turns out I was one of the “chosen” ones and I spent this life as a murderer and a thief, it wouldn’t matter in the end, because I was chosen? This seems like an excuse to partake in whatever I want in this life, no matter how horrible and “sinful.” Am I misinterpreting this?

 

Well, the misinterpretation lies in the idea of what theology is, We tend to assume that Calvin came up with this scheme because he thought it was a good idea of some kind.  Like a good idea to get people to behave virtuously. Like it's somehow Calvin's scheme for conducting a helpful religion. But that's not at all what theology. Theology is the way a particular scholar concludes things actually work in the biggest scheme of things, based on his analysis of Christianity's ancient foundational texts.  

Calvin also writes hundreds and hundreds of pages about virtues and how to conduct oneself. And he certainly believes that God and Jesus believe in virtues and he absolutely urges people to behave virtuously and ethically. 

But he concludes that these are two separate things --- There are principles for good behavior and evidence that God and Jesus believe in good behavior.......  And there is also his observation that nobody knows in this lifetime whether they're saved or not.

Those two things aren't linked in some kind of logical way -- "Ooooh!! I don't know if I'm saved, so I can murderer and still be saved! Woohoo!" if you conclude that, then you're just a jerk, in Calvin's opinion. He concludes that God believes in and values virtues and ethics -- but he can't conclude that God rewards Behavior A with Reward A and punishes Behavior B with Punishment B.........Because his reading tells him that nobody human ever can know in life how that works out in the huge godly scheme of things. 

Calvin's theological analysis also makes him believe that God is the most important thing in the universe. And that he made us and gave us everything we have. So since cares about virtue and ethics, then he believes we all should. 

A lot of what Calvin is pointing to is the fact that much in the spiritual universe is unknowable to us........including the particulars of how people get judged and damned or judged and saved.........And he argues that therefore it's ultimately ridiculous and unreasonable to do what the Catholic church was doing at the time -- selling pardons for certain behaviors --- i.e., acting as if humans could know how divine justice played out. Making it into a transaction between us and an almighty and all-encompassing God...... 

Unfortunately, it's way too easy to trivialize theology and misunderstand and misjudge it because we take out one thing or two and don't ever look at them in context and see how they play into the big picture that somebody like Calvin is seeing. ...,,,, 

When somebody is considered a great theologian or philosopher after hundreds or thousands of years, it's always a mistake to think we can adequately judge and understand or accept or dismiss what they're saying without looking deeply into them and following the context and understanding where their ideas came from. When we do flybys based on a few statements taken entirely out of context, we necessarily miss a lot of stuff that's worth pondering. 

And I say this as an atheist! It doesn't help at all to have idiots and people pursuing their own agendas as pastors and preachers! Theological questions will never be anything I'd trust Bin or Jer with, for example! 

 

Thanks for the explanation. I sure don’t see either Bin or Jeremy as particularly ethical people. Their definition must be different from mine.

[Churchhoney]

7 minutes ago, Cinnabon said:

Thanks for the explanation. I sure don’t see either Bin or Jeremy as particularly ethical people. Their definition must be different from mine.

Well, they tend to reduce Calvinism to those few things we've been talking about, the stuff that I would say is an oversimplification or even a caricature of what Calvin says -- they largely ignore the tons of ethical stuff he wrote.

They don't focus on ethics. .... Partly, I'd guess, because personally they're both kinda dim-brained arrogant jerks with little or no empathy...But also partly, I think, because the churches they've been in -- the churches they've chosen to be in because they feel an affinity there --   want to think about faith only in terms of the one act of accepting Jesus Christ as your personal savior -- and treating everything else -- including ethics -- as so trivial as to be worth virtually no attention.

That's why they can angrily bash people who care about social justice, for example, in my opinion. The ethical parts of religion aren't things they choose to include. But that's not Calvin's fault. It's a choice by particular people and particular churches. 

Edited November 12, 2021 by Churchhoney

[satrunrose]

The hilarious thing for me is that, if you were actually following Calvin, you should understand that accepting Jesus Christ as your personal saviour doesn't necessarily make you any more of a candidate for salvation. If you're not one of the elect, (the chosen ones preselected to be saved), it doesn't matter who or what you do or don't accept. 

It's a perfect example of religious cherry picking. They like the idea of an exclusive God and afterlife and they like believing that they're special, so they roll with Calvinism while totally ignoring the ethics bit and the expectations for living that Jesus was pretty explicit on ("it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God".) 

Edited November 13, 2021 by satrunrose

[GeeGolly]

The more I learn about organized religion, the farther it makes me run. I really can't imagine a God that has an ongoing A-list of folks heading for the good seats, nor can I imagine a God who would put more hoops to jump through than navigating our health care system, to get the good seats.

I also can't imagine living life with so much focus as to what happens after I'm dead.

I'm just going to continue on living my life, while trying my best not to be an asshole. Amen.

[lookeyloo]

2 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

The more I learn about organized religion, the farther it makes me run. I really can't imagine a God that has an ongoing A-list of folks heading for the good seats, nor can I imagine a God who would put more hoops to jump through than navigating our health care system, to get the good seats.

I also can't imagine living life with so much focus as to what happens after I'm dead.

I'm just going to continue on living my life, while trying my best not to be an asshole. Amen.

Not making a plug for organized religion of any variety, but maybe this is more concentrated in Christianity?  I'm learning about my faith of Judaism and the interesting part is that there are always "conflicts" and "contradictions" and that is okay and expected.  

[GeeGolly]

2 minutes ago, lookeyloo said:

Not making a plug for organized religion of any variety, but maybe this is more concentrated in Christianity?  I'm learning about my faith of Judaism and the interesting part is that there are always "conflicts" and "contradictions" and that is okay and expected.  

My kids have said that my "beliefs" have always leaned toward Judaism! 

[lookeyloo]

21 minutes ago, GeeGolly said:

My kids have said that my "beliefs" have always leaned toward Judaism! 

Interesting for sure.  I didn't have much of a Jewish education or foundation until recently and the history of it is fascinating to me.  There is a lot to it without "religion". One doesn't have to believe in God, and questioning everything is considered a good thing.  And all that I read ends with something like "so there are still conflicts and contradictions".  Fun stuff.  

[sagittarius sue]

19 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

they tend to reduce Calvinism to those few things we've been talking about, the stuff that I would say is an oversimplification or even a caricature of what Calvin says -- they largely ignore the tons of ethical stuff he wrote.

I find this discussion to be fascinating!  It calls to mind what the actual descendants of Puritans became.  The Puritan church became the Congregational church and eventually joined into the United Church of Christ.  It mellowed out and the descendants have been leaders in social justice movements; abolitionists, prison and mental health reforms, women's rights, and civil rights.  They have focused on ethics!

[MunichNark]

16 hours ago, GeeGolly said:

The more I learn about organized religion, the farther it makes me run. I really can't imagine a God that has an ongoing A-list of folks heading for the good seats, nor can I imagine a God who would put more hoops to jump through than navigating our health care system, to get the good seats.

I also can't imagine living life with so much focus as to what happens after I'm dead.

I'm just going to continue on living my life, while trying my best not to be an asshole. Amen.

Agree. I'm Catholic and although I don't do any of the stuff you're supposed to do, I still have some sort of faith or belief in God. But the older I get, the less I care about all the trappings. There's so much shit wrapped up in Religion. I prefer to try and be as good a person as I can be, regardless of belief. If that's not good enough for God, well........