Gimme That Old Time Religion

[crazy8s]

my mom's church reopened this week even though her pastor and his entire family are still testing positive. her church is mostly elderly folks and maybe 12-30 people in a sanctuary that can fit 200. but still the arrogance of church leaders is astounding.

[thehorseofpower]

I was thinking about fundie attitudes toward the pandemic last night. What's hard for me to wrap my mind around is that, on the surface, it seems like the pandemic is a tailor-made moment for Christians to be Christ-like and attempt draw new people to them through their superior care for others. Jesus sacrificed his own life, in the most brutal of ways, so that the rest of humanity could be saved and have eternal life. He did this for people he didn't even know. Sacrificing the needs of the self for the good of others seems to me to be the underlying story of everything Jesus was about. And here we have a global pandemic threatening the lives of millions, and we are asked to sacrifice our own personal comfort to wear masks to protect others; asked to stay home and give up the normalcy of much of our daily lives, again for the good of others. Seems like a follower of Jesus who has allegedly built their entire life around him would sink their teeth into this opportunity to model the love of Christ and proudly sport their masks everywhere, and brag about staying home (especially since many of these fundie families already imply that time with family and homeschooling are the way to live anyway). You would think they'd be in competition to show who can be more godly by making the most masks to donate to hospitals, or who can give up the most elaborate vacation in the name of staying home to keep people safe. Instead they seem to be in competition for who can flout recommendations most egregiously and who will be first to be hospitalized.

I do not get it. I know there are political aspects to the general response that can't be discussed here, but still. The most historic opportunity to model the love of Christ that may ever exist in our lifetime, and to teach one's children how to do so as well, passes them by as they throw temper tantrums and cry persecution as Covid whips through their congregations. Any vestiges of positivity I had left for organized religion has evaporated thanks to the overall pandemic response from so many Christian churches.

[xwordfanatik]

@thehorseofpower, I love your post X 1,000.  You said it more eloquently than I ever could, and I totally agree with every word.

[crazycatlady58]

@thehorseofpower, if I could marry your post I would. As a Christian I think the same thoughts ( although  not stated as well as you have) whenever someone who I know to be a Christian posts something about " Taking their freedom back" or not living in fear ect...I am sure you all have seen similar. Just stop thinking of yourself people.  Not y'all, but you know...

[LilJen]

4 hours ago, thehorseofpower said:

I was thinking about fundie attitudes toward the pandemic last night. What's hard for me to wrap my mind around is that, on the surface, it seems like the pandemic is a tailor-made moment for Christians to be Christ-like and attempt draw new people to them through their superior care for others. Jesus sacrificed his own life, in the most brutal of ways, so that the rest of humanity could be saved and have eternal life. He did this for people he didn't even know. Sacrificing the needs of the self for the good of others seems to me to be the underlying story of everything Jesus was about. And here we have a global pandemic threatening the lives of millions, and we are asked to sacrifice our own personal comfort to wear masks to protect others; asked to stay home and give up the normalcy of much of our daily lives, again for the good of others. Seems like a follower of Jesus who has allegedly built their entire life around him would sink their teeth into this opportunity to model the love of Christ and proudly sport their masks everywhere, and brag about staying home (especially since many of these fundie families already imply that time with family and homeschooling are the way to live anyway). You would think they'd be in competition to show who can be more godly by making the most masks to donate to hospitals, or who can give up the most elaborate vacation in the name of staying home to keep people safe. Instead they seem to be in competition for who can flout recommendations most egregiously and who will be first to be hospitalized.

I do not get it. I know there are political aspects to the general response that can't be discussed here, but still. The most historic opportunity to model the love of Christ that may ever exist in our lifetime, and to teach one's children how to do so as well, passes them by as they throw temper tantrums and cry persecution as Covid whips through their congregations. Any vestiges of positivity I had left for organized religion has evaporated thanks to the overall pandemic response from so many Christian churches.

A thousand times yes to this.

[doodlebug]

21 hours ago, LilJen said:

A thousand times yes to this.

Absolutely.  The pastor of my church actually emphasizes this and preaches that, as Christians, we must set a higher standard and be the example of love for others by wearing masks, socially distancing and following all guidelines.  He has repeatedly announced that anyone who doesn't follow all the rules will be asked to leave Mass and stay away.  Of course, he's a Roman Catholic priest, so he doesn't know any better, I guess.

[Ohiopirate02]

On 12/5/2020 at 9:45 AM, thehorseofpower said:

I was thinking about fundie attitudes toward the pandemic last night. What's hard for me to wrap my mind around is that, on the surface, it seems like the pandemic is a tailor-made moment for Christians to be Christ-like and attempt draw new people to them through their superior care for others. Jesus sacrificed his own life, in the most brutal of ways, so that the rest of humanity could be saved and have eternal life. He did this for people he didn't even know. Sacrificing the needs of the self for the good of others seems to me to be the underlying story of everything Jesus was about. And here we have a global pandemic threatening the lives of millions, and we are asked to sacrifice our own personal comfort to wear masks to protect others; asked to stay home and give up the normalcy of much of our daily lives, again for the good of others. Seems like a follower of Jesus who has allegedly built their entire life around him would sink their teeth into this opportunity to model the love of Christ and proudly sport their masks everywhere, and brag about staying home (especially since many of these fundie families already imply that time with family and homeschooling are the way to live anyway). You would think they'd be in competition to show who can be more godly by making the most masks to donate to hospitals, or who can give up the most elaborate vacation in the name of staying home to keep people safe. Instead they seem to be in competition for who can flout recommendations most egregiously and who will be first to be hospitalized.

I do not get it. I know there are political aspects to the general response that can't be discussed here, but still. The most historic opportunity to model the love of Christ that may ever exist in our lifetime, and to teach one's children how to do so as well, passes them by as they throw temper tantrums and cry persecution as Covid whips through their congregations. Any vestiges of positivity I had left for organized religion has evaporated thanks to the overall pandemic response from so many Christian churches.

This pandemic is exposing many "Christian" churches for what they really are--a complex grift.  These pastors are in it for the money plain and simple.  The technology is there for them to broadcast their services and keep people safe, but that doesn't bring in enough money.  Everything you mentioned in your eloquent post won't happen because those things don't bring in the money.  They rushed to open their churches because the weekly offerings were down, and they believe they need butts in the pews in order to get that money.  I don't think it has even entered the minds of these preachers that many of their parishioners are struggling financially and giving is going to be down because of that.  They choose to believe that it's government overreach is keeping their church doors closed and that is why they are not getting the money.  Of course, they won't come out and admit this.  I do have respect for my Catholic Parish where our Pastor has made it clear that the church is hurting and please give if you can.  The bills do need to get paid, and he does deserve to eat.  But he is honest about it, and he is willing to work harder to make this happen.  He went from 3 masses a weekend to 6 in 2 languages in order to have smaller services.  He broadcasts 2 masses in English and Spanish for those who are choosing to stay home.  We are socially distanced in the sanctuary, and are masked for 99% of the service.  

[doodlebug]

22 minutes ago, Ohiopirate02 said:

This pandemic is exposing many "Christian" churches for what they really are--a complex grift.  These pastors are in it for the money plain and simple.  The technology is there for them to broadcast their services and keep people safe, but that doesn't bring in enough money.  Everything you mentioned in your eloquent post won't happen because those things don't bring in the money.  They rushed to open their churches because the weekly offerings were down, and they believe they need butts in the pews in order to get that money.  I don't think it has even entered the minds of these preachers that many of their parishioners are struggling financially and giving is going to be down because of that.  They choose to believe that it's government overreach is keeping their church doors closed and that is why they are not getting the money.  Of course, they won't come out and admit this.  I do have respect for my Catholic Parish where our Pastor has made it clear that the church is hurting and please give if you can.  The bills do need to get paid, and he does deserve to eat.  But he is honest about it, and he is willing to work harder to make this happen.  He went from 3 masses a weekend to 6 in 2 languages in order to have smaller services.  He broadcasts 2 masses in English and Spanish for those who are choosing to stay home.  We are socially distanced in the sanctuary, and are masked for 99% of the service.  

My church. also Catholic, has done similar things.  Everyday, they livestream the daily Mass via Facebook.  Every weeknight at 6, there is a different prayer service or educational session or other contact with the pastor or the associate online.  They had a 'drive through' to hand out palms on Palm Sunday, to bless pets on St Francis' feast and give out little bags for 'Christmas at Home' that contain a booklet full of prayers specific to various Advent activities as well as some Holy Water to bless the Advent wreath and then, later, the Bambinelli.  We also got Oplatki wafers to have with Christmas dinner.  (Cleveland is a multi-ethnic community, and a lot of people observe holiday customs learned from their immigrant ancestors.  We also got two blessed candles to light our wreaths and a piece of chalk for the Epiphany message on the door frame.  All of this paid for by a couple of parishioners who contacted the pastor asking to contribute to the community

The pastor has specifically thanked people for continuing to contribute, and, of course, my church, in addition to weekly envelopes, has a website for donations, etc.  Because of the restrictions on gathering indoors, my church is taking reservations for Mass on Christmas and the pastor has requested that those who go to church most weeks consider staying home on Christmas because as we all know, there are people who only go to church on holidays who won't realize the logistics and he doesn't want to turn anyone away, but he will do so rather than break the rules.

My father used to refer to the above-mentioned churchgoers as 'Christmas Catholics'.  One holiday, as we were leaving Mass, he commented on the 'G-d dam*ed Christmas Catholics, don't even know how to get out of the parking lot!' in the ecumenical spirit of the Lord's birth.

[Absolom]

4 hours ago, doodlebug said:

My father used to refer to the above-mentioned churchgoers as 'Christmas Catholics'.  One holiday, as we were leaving Mass, he commented on the 'G-d dam*ed Christmas Catholics, don't even know how to get out of the parking lot!' in the ecumenical spirit of the Lord's birth.

The parking lot 500 is a fine Catholic tradition, but according to our monsignor one we should try to unlearn.  

[marypat57]

@Absolom:  I LOVE the “parking lot 500”!  

The exit signs in my Catholic Church parking lot say “Go in peace to love and serve the Lord”.  

[Ohiopirate02]

23 hours ago, doodlebug said:

My church. also Catholic, has done similar things.  Everyday, they livestream the daily Mass via Facebook.  Every weeknight at 6, there is a different prayer service or educational session or other contact with the pastor or the associate online.  They had a 'drive through' to hand out palms on Palm Sunday, to bless pets on St Francis' feast and give out little bags for 'Christmas at Home' that contain a booklet full of prayers specific to various Advent activities as well as some Holy Water to bless the Advent wreath and then, later, the Bambinelli.  We also got Oplatki wafers to have with Christmas dinner.  (Cleveland is a multi-ethnic community, and a lot of people observe holiday customs learned from their immigrant ancestors.  We also got two blessed candles to light our wreaths and a piece of chalk for the Epiphany message on the door frame.  All of this paid for by a couple of parishioners who contacted the pastor asking to contribute to the community

The pastor has specifically thanked people for continuing to contribute, and, of course, my church, in addition to weekly envelopes, has a website for donations, etc.  Because of the restrictions on gathering indoors, my church is taking reservations for Mass on Christmas and the pastor has requested that those who go to church most weeks consider staying home on Christmas because as we all know, there are people who only go to church on holidays who won't realize the logistics and he doesn't want to turn anyone away, but he will do so rather than break the rules.

My father used to refer to the above-mentioned churchgoers as 'Christmas Catholics'.  One holiday, as we were leaving Mass, he commented on the 'G-d dam*ed Christmas Catholics, don't even know how to get out of the parking lot!' in the ecumenical spirit of the Lord's birth.

 

19 hours ago, Absolom said:

The parking lot 500 is a fine Catholic tradition, but according to our monsignor one we should try to unlearn.  

If this is the same church that I used to attend, then yes that parking lot on a Christmas was a nightmare.  The lot itself was designed piecemeal as the church grew, so even on a regular Sunday it could get tricky.  Add in the Christmas Catholics and it was a cluster.  My dad's philosophy for parking was to think about the exit, so we were usually spared.  After my little sister and brother were born, he stopped going to Mass, and we were forced to go to the Mass of my mother's choosing either the 4pm Christmas Eve or the 7:30am Christmas service.  And the years when it was Christmas morning, we had to walk on by our presents.  My parents had this rule that you couldn't open presents until everyone was awake and Dad was still sleeping.  We have pictures of at least one Christmas morning where I am fully dressed while other family members were in the pajamas.  Good Times.  I think at least one of those years my older brother and I were altar servers because Mom.  

 

[Churchhoney]

Paging John MacArthur. Stay away from your lawyer, Jenna Ellis. Multiple news outlets report she's got Covid. 

Edited December 8, 2020 by Churchhoney

[DangerousMinds]

35 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

Paging John MacArthur. Stay away from your lawyer, Jenna Ellis. Multiple news outlets report she's got Covid. 

Couldn’t happen to a more deserving person! 🤣 I’ve been watching her on tv and I hate that smug bitch!

[Absolom]

I'm terrible, but I think he kind of deserves to get it.  I don't wish him to die of it, but being sick for a couple weeks with it might be a good wake up call for him.  Or at least two weeks he isn't spewing lies

[DangerousMinds]

2 minutes ago, Absolom said:

I'm terrible, but I think he kind of deserves to get it.  I don't wish him to die of it, but being sick for a couple weeks with it might be a good wake up call for him.  Or at least two weeks he isn't spewing lies

We were talking about his lawyer, Jenna Ellis, but I agree about MacArthur!

[Absolom]

1 minute ago, DangerousMinds said:

We were talking about his lawyer, Jenna Ellis, but I agree about MacArthur!

Since the person said for him to stay away from his lawyer, I was going the other way.  Go ahead and get it MacArthur.  

[Nysha]

On 12/7/2020 at 8:49 AM, doodlebug said:

My father used to refer to the above-mentioned churchgoers as 'Christmas Catholics'.  One holiday, as we were leaving Mass, he commented on the 'G-d dam*ed Christmas Catholics, don't even know how to get out of the parking lot!' in the ecumenical spirit of the Lord's birth.

A Catholic co-worker calls them Creasters, Christians who only go to mass on Christmas and Easter.

17 hours ago, Absolom said:

I'm terrible, but I think he kind of deserves to get it.  I don't wish him to die of it, but being sick for a couple weeks with it might be a good wake up call for him.  Or at least two weeks he isn't spewing lies

I only want him to get it if he ends up on a ventilator for a couple of weeks and then some serious lasting side effects. If he gets a mild case he'll use it as evidence that it's not any worse than the flu. If he dies people will say it's because he was old and had underlying health issues. 

[doodlebug]

On 12/8/2020 at 11:49 AM, Ohiopirate02 said:

 

If this is the same church that I used to attend, then yes that parking lot on a Christmas was a nightmare.  The lot itself was designed piecemeal as the church grew, so even on a regular Sunday it could get tricky.  Add in the Christmas Catholics and it was a cluster.  My dad's philosophy for parking was to think about the exit, so we were usually spared.  After my little sister and brother were born, he stopped going to Mass, and we were forced to go to the Mass of my mother's choosing either the 4pm Christmas Eve or the 7:30am Christmas service.  And the years when it was Christmas morning, we had to walk on by our presents.  My parents had this rule that you couldn't open presents until everyone was awake and Dad was still sleeping.  We have pictures of at least one Christmas morning where I am fully dressed while other family members were in the pajamas.  Good Times.  I think at least one of those years my older brother and I were altar servers because Mom.  

 

St. Gabe's in snowy Concord, Ohio.  It is one of those modern 'church in the round' places, so the parking was always a little wonky. My father took to going to the earliest Mass on Sunday, the one all the old folks like because attendance was small, people rarely brought small kids and, best of all, in his opinion, there was minimal singing, in and out in 30 minutes, tops.

When I was in my early teens, we managed to convince our parents that we should open gifts on Christmas Eve, mainly because we could then wear our new outfits to Midnight Mass.  All kids attending the school were required to be in the church choir on holidays, so we always were there for MM.  When my youngest sister was born, we still opened on Christmas Eve. We'd put her to bed by 8 and the second she fell asleep, Santa came.  So, we still had plenty of time to get to Midnight Mass.  Nowadays, I am too old and tired to go to Mass at midnight and I am apparently not alone since my parish doesn't even do one; last Christmas vigil is 10PM.

Edited December 9, 2020 by doodlebug

[Churchhoney]

Evidence that conservative church leaders who don't support maskless hymn-singing in crowds risk revolt. Two top LDS leaders try to explain that wearing masks, social distancing and having small gatherings rather than large ones this holiday season are ways to show Christlike love to the vulnerable among us. And so they hope that the faithful do these things. 

Many of the faithful DO NOT agree. 

 

 

 

Edited December 10, 2020 by Churchhoney

[BetyBee]

That video was really interesting, @Churchhoney. She's very intelligent and engaging. 

[marypat57]

In my Long Island neighborhood, we used to call the “occasional “ Catholics the “A&P” (for ashes and palms) Catholics.  My father would say that when all of the people were waving the palms on Palm Sunday, it looked like Bat Day at Yankee Stadium.

As a rule, my family attended the latest masses on Sunday, mainly because my mother was NOT a morning person and Sunday was the one day when she did not have to get up and get everyone ready for school.  

I am still a Midnight Mass person, mostly because I sing in the choir.  My parish is a large, multiethnic one with mass in four languages (English, Spanish, Italian, Kreyol) weekly.  Midnight Mass is celebrated in all but Italian.  Luckily, we have the church building, and 2 auditorium spaces in the school.  
 

Hopefully the parish will be live-streaming some Christmas masses...

[Temperance]

On 12/5/2020 at 9:45 AM, thehorseofpower said:

I was thinking about fundie attitudes toward the pandemic last night. What's hard for me to wrap my mind around is that, on the surface, it seems like the pandemic is a tailor-made moment for Christians to be Christ-like and attempt draw new people to them through their superior care for others. Jesus sacrificed his own life, in the most brutal of ways, so that the rest of humanity could be saved and have eternal life. He did this for people he didn't even know. Sacrificing the needs of the self for the good of others seems to me to be the underlying story of everything Jesus was about. And here we have a global pandemic threatening the lives of millions, and we are asked to sacrifice our own personal comfort to wear masks to protect others; asked to stay home and give up the normalcy of much of our daily lives, again for the good of others. Seems like a follower of Jesus who has allegedly built their entire life around him would sink their teeth into this opportunity to model the love of Christ and proudly sport their masks everywhere, and brag about staying home (especially since many of these fundie families already imply that time with family and homeschooling are the way to live anyway). You would think they'd be in competition to show who can be more godly by making the most masks to donate to hospitals, or who can give up the most elaborate vacation in the name of staying home to keep people safe. Instead they seem to be in competition for who can flout recommendations most egregiously and who will be first to be hospitalized.

I do not get it. I know there are political aspects to the general response that can't be discussed here, but still. The most historic opportunity to model the love of Christ that may ever exist in our lifetime, and to teach one's children how to do so as well, passes them by as they throw temper tantrums and cry persecution as Covid whips through their congregations. Any vestiges of positivity I had left for organized religion has evaporated thanks to the overall pandemic response from so many Christian churches.

I've been thinking about this all week. You should send this someone to be published as a letter to editor. It's so good. 

[MunichNark]

I'm one of those shopping cart Catholics and have moved away from Rellgion mostly (as much as any Catholic is able to do...) but I had been looking forward to a Christmas Carol live stream on 26th Dec from "my" new Church. Seeing as yet another lockdown is looming, I imagine it won't happen even though Churches remain open (while everything else is shut), but not sure about choir singing. Quite sad if it doesn't happen as I love Christmas Carols.

[crazycatlady58]

1 hour ago, MunichNark said:

I'm one of those shopping cart Catholics and have moved away from Rellgion mostly (as much as any Catholic is able to do...) but I had been looking forward to a Christmas Carol live stream on 26th Dec from "my" new Church. Seeing as yet another lockdown is looming, I imagine it won't happen even though Churches remain open (while everything else is shut), but not sure about choir singing. Quite sad if it doesn't happen as I love Christmas Carols.

While not the same as Church the group Pentatonix has some wonderful Christmas carols on YouTube.  Their Silent Night is fantastic although I enjoy almost everything they sing.

[Absolom]

2 hours ago, MunichNark said:

I had been looking forward to a Christmas Carol live stream on 26th Dec from "my" new Church. Seeing as yet another lockdown is looming, I imagine it won't happen even though Churches remain open (while everything else is shut), but not sure about choir singing. Quite sad if it doesn't happen as I love Christmas Carols.

Along the Pentatonix line, many churches have youtube videos of the services and I'm sure you could find one from a group from a previous year.  I show things like that to my mother on a regular basis.  With a Roku, Fire stick, etc., you can put it on a TV and have a pretty good experience.

[latetotheparty]

My choir is using the a cappella app so choir members can record their part at home and the choir director edits them together. We also have zoom rehearsals for those that need help learning a part. The recordings have been amazing. 

[ginger90]

2 hours ago, latetotheparty said:

My choir is using the a cappella app so choir members can record their part at home and the choir director edits them together. We also have zoom rehearsals for those that need help learning a part. The recordings have been amazing. 

I’ve seen various  videos on Facebook. They were very well done, and gave me chills, in a good way.

[satrunrose]

Church services are closed in my region, but there was still a virtual Christmas pageant today. The (mostly teens) recorded their parts from home while a few small groups pre-recorded their bits from the Church. Carols were sung, the story was told and they even included pics of the kids dressed up in former years (plus the delightful awkwardness of all Christmas pageants!). If this can be done in my tiny church with no budget, the mega churches can certainly bring religious service into people's homes without risking spread. 

Love your neighbour, wear a mask!

Edited December 13, 2020 by satrunrose

[thehorseofpower]

On 12/11/2020 at 11:49 PM, Temperance said:

I've been thinking about this all week. You should send this someone to be published as a letter to editor. It's so good. 

Thank you so much, @Temperance. I read this comment yesterday morning and it has given me a lift all weekend to know that what I wrote was remembered and thought about. 

[awaken]

This could apply to all of the threads in this forum, so posting it here!  I saw this on FB and it applies to the Duggars and their ilk.  I'm going to post part of it on their IG if I can.

"Dear Church: I can’t see Christ through you.

I’m a nurse working during a global pandemic and here’s what I see.

I see packed auditoriums for festive Christmas programs with almost no masks, and zero social distancing in Missouri. I know what this will mean for my colleagues in the weeks to come. They’ll work feverishly right around Christmas to save the lives of people who attended those events, or family members of people who attended these events. They’ll have to work overtime over the holiday to give the afflicted the best chance of survival. They’ll put themselves in harms way to do that. I see you trading your right to gather for the medical staff’s ability to spend Christmas with their children. I see you relishing your right to fellowship while denying someone else the right to breathe and survive. I don’t see love. I don’t see compassion. I don’t see self sacrifice. I don’t see any of the things that you claim to stand for. But I see those who protect the right to live, I see self sacrifice and I see compassion in the bustling halls of the ER wards and the deafening silence of the ICU.

https://www.google.com/.../amp.news-leader.../amp/3859464001

James 2:14-18

What good is it, my brothers, if someone says he has faith but does not have works? Can that faith save him? If a brother or sister is poorly clothed and lacking in daily food, and one of you says to them, “Go in peace, be warmed and filled,” without giving them the things needed for the body, what good is that? So also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead. But someone will say, “You have faith and I have works.” Show me your faith apart from your works, and I will show you my faith by my works.

I see a pastor from Michigan encouraging his congregation to contract Covid-19. I know that when an entire church goes out looking to become intentionally ill, some of them will meet Jesus sooner rather than later. I see the impending mourning that these families will go through. I see the tired doctors and nurses who will lose their own faith while watching others intentionally suffer to demonstrate theirs.

https://www.google.com/.../CWQ6K7PJEZGY.../%3foutputType=amp

Matthew 4:7 Jesus answered him, "It is also written: 'Do not put the Lord your God to the test.'"

I see people who describe themselves as pro-life actively participating in the deaths of the vulnerable while they offer prayers to undo their own doing. I see believers giving the credit to god for recoveries that came as a result of medical providers’ heroic efforts and emotional turmoil. I see people clutching rosaries as they’re intubated. I hear prayers offered over speaker phones and iPads. I’ve seen the faithful die.

I see my church going friends post pictures of travel, packed churches, and support for ideas about this virus being a hoax, while doctors and nurses stay isolated away from family and friends to protect them and try hard to warn of the reality behind the hospital doors -only to be mocked.

1 John 3:17-18

But if anyone has the world's goods and sees his brother in need, yet closes his heart against him, how does God's love abide in him? Little children, let us not love in word or talk but in deed and in truth.

I see a lot of things, but I don’t see Christ. I hear a lot of things, but I don’t hear the voice of the lord. I feel a lot of things but I don’t feel the love of the church. I read a lot of things but none of the things I read are congruent with the written word of god.

Dear church, this was your moment to witness to the world, and you have witnessed. Oh, you have witnessed.

Proverbs 14:25

A truthful witness saves lives, but one who breathes out lies is deceitful."

[awaken]

8 hours ago, satrunrose said:

Church services are closed in my region, but there was still a virtual Christmas pageant today. The (mostly teens) recorded their parts from home while a few small groups pre-recorded their bits from the Church. Carols were sung, the story was told and they even included pics of the kids dressed up in former years (plus the delightful awkwardness of all Christmas pageants!). If this can be done in my tiny church with no budget, the mega churches can certainly bring religious service into people's homes without risking spread. 

Love your neighbour, wear a mask!

My church is doing the same- recording parts from home, and doing the pageant and service virtually together.  Works great and all are happy.

I learned today that my sister's church is continuing to have in person prayer meetings, social nights, and was planning a holiday party until a church member became ill with covid and they decided to go virtual since they were contacted by contact tracing.  Too little, too late.  How stupid must anyone be at this point to think that's ok.  And these are not "covid hoaxers" or science deniers- these are people who sincerely believe that they are being as safe as possible, and that they are taking this virus very seriously.  Honestly I feel like if people in churches who DO believe it in and take it seriously simply Do Not Get It, there's no hope.  

[beckie]

Some friends of mine were posting on FB how they weren't going to wear masks because it was govt control, etc. Then the wife got covid and got it bad. Now they're the first ones to encourage masks.

Go figure. Too bad it took one of them getting it to make them do the right thing.

[Churchhoney]

So in a horrible double irony, big be-frugal-and-careful-in-your-finances uber-Christian money guru Dave Ramsey has upped his Public Health Resistance Initiative by throwing a giant -- upwards of 1000 guests -- maskless, non-socially-distanced Christmas party. 

So that's the message from the super-careful, highly Christian advisor who aims to make us all financially secure and who is, of course, greatly admired by the whole Duggar and Duggar-similar crowd.....

The talk radio host, who preaches debt-free living and business success, threw a maskless indoor company Christmas party at the company’s Franklin headquarters with more than 1,500 people invited to attend.

Across different floors of one building, guests drank and line-danced together, gorged on barbecue, gambled in a fake casino and partied in a “silent disco,” according to a map meant to help revelers navigate the bash. Outside there were igloos, dessert food trucks and carriage rides to be had. Several open bars were scattered throughout the building.

One worker estimated there were at least 1,000 guests in the building — the vast majority of them without masks — as well as several dozen people like himself working the event. “There was absolutely no [social] distancing being practiced,” said the worker, who spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of jeopardizing his job.

Ramsey has become a hugely influential figure in personal finance, with an especially strong following among Christians. The “Boots & BBQ” event, at which vendors were allegedly urged to not wear masks, is consistent with how he has approached the pandemic since the beginning....

The company’s defiance of public health guidance has continued even as dozens of employees have been infected by the virus. Around 50 staffers tested positive in November, according to Religion News Service, which first reported the plans for Saturday night’s Christmas party. At least 5,462 Tennesseans have died of COVID-19, and more than 2,600 are currently hospitalized with the illness......ETC. 

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/dave-ramsey-christmas-party-coronavirus_n_5fd6b17dc5b663c37597aadf

Not clear this country can get past the virus at all when such a wide swath of Americans refuse to follow basic public-health measures, seems to me. 

 

Edited December 14, 2020 by Churchhoney

[GeeGolly]

39 minutes ago, Churchhoney said:

So in a horrible double irony, big be-frugal-and-careful-in-your-finances uber-Christian money guru Dave Ramsey has upped his Public Health Resistance Initiative by throwing a giant -- upwards of 1000 guests -- maskless, non-socially-distanced Christmas party. 

So that's the message from the super-careful, highly Christian advisor who aims to make us all financially secure and who is, of course, greatly admired by the whole Duggar and Duggar-similar crowd.....

The talk radio host, who preaches debt-free living and business success, threw a maskless indoor company Christmas party at the company’s Franklin headquarters with more than 1,500 people invited to attend.

Across different floors of one building, guests drank and line-danced together, gorged on barbecue, gambled in a fake casino and partied in a “silent disco,” according to a map meant to help revelers navigate the bash. Outside there were igloos, dessert food trucks and carriage rides to be had. Several open bars were scattered throughout the building.

One worker estimated there were at least 1,000 guests in the building — the vast majority of them without masks — as well as several dozen people like himself working the event. “There was absolutely no [social] distancing being practiced,” said the worker, who spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of jeopardizing his job.

Ramsey has become a hugely influential figure in personal finance, with an especially strong following among Christians. The “Boots & BBQ” event, at which vendors were allegedly urged to not wear masks, is consistent with how he has approached the pandemic since the beginning....

The company’s defiance of public health guidance has continued even as dozens of employees have been infected by the virus. Around 50 staffers tested positive in November, according to Religion News Service, which first reported the plans for Saturday night’s Christmas party. At least 5,462 Tennesseans have died of COVID-19, and more than 2,600 are currently hospitalized with the illness......ETC. 

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/dave-ramsey-christmas-party-coronavirus_n_5fd6b17dc5b663c37597aadf

Not clear this country can get past the virus at all such a wide swath of Americans refuse to follow basic public-health measures, seems to me. 

 

I wish this virus could be survival of the smartest and most careful. Then I'd say, party away!

[Ohiopirate02]

2 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

So in a horrible double irony, big be-frugal-and-careful-in-your-finances uber-Christian money guru Dave Ramsey has upped his Public Health Resistance Initiative by throwing a giant -- upwards of 1000 guests -- maskless, non-socially-distanced Christmas party. 

So that's the message from the super-careful, highly Christian advisor who aims to make us all financially secure and who is, of course, greatly admired by the whole Duggar and Duggar-similar crowd.....

The talk radio host, who preaches debt-free living and business success, threw a maskless indoor company Christmas party at the company’s Franklin headquarters with more than 1,500 people invited to attend.

Across different floors of one building, guests drank and line-danced together, gorged on barbecue, gambled in a fake casino and partied in a “silent disco,” according to a map meant to help revelers navigate the bash. Outside there were igloos, dessert food trucks and carriage rides to be had. Several open bars were scattered throughout the building.

One worker estimated there were at least 1,000 guests in the building — the vast majority of them without masks — as well as several dozen people like himself working the event. “There was absolutely no [social] distancing being practiced,” said the worker, who spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of jeopardizing his job.

Ramsey has become a hugely influential figure in personal finance, with an especially strong following among Christians. The “Boots & BBQ” event, at which vendors were allegedly urged to not wear masks, is consistent with how he has approached the pandemic since the beginning....

The company’s defiance of public health guidance has continued even as dozens of employees have been infected by the virus. Around 50 staffers tested positive in November, according to Religion News Service, which first reported the plans for Saturday night’s Christmas party. At least 5,462 Tennesseans have died of COVID-19, and more than 2,600 are currently hospitalized with the illness......ETC. 

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/dave-ramsey-christmas-party-coronavirus_n_5fd6b17dc5b663c37597aadf

Not clear this country can get past the virus at all such a wide swath of Americans refuse to follow basic public-health measures, seems to me. 

 

Those fuckers.  I pray that none of the people working this shindig come down with covid because of these idiots.  I also pray that everyone else gets the vaccine before any of these guests, and Dave Ramsey should no be the last American to get it.

[satrunrose]

Sorry, I'm not from the US so I may be totally missing something, but isn't being hospitalized with Covid incredibly expensive? As in, something a famous finance guy would tell you to avoid, whatever else your beliefs are? 

[doodlebug]

1 hour ago, satrunrose said:

Sorry, I'm not from the US so I may be totally missing something, but isn't being hospitalized with Covid incredibly expensive? As in, something a famous finance guy would tell you to avoid, whatever else your beliefs are? 

When you go to the hospital here as an emergency, they have to see you, even if you don't have insurance/cannot pay.  Any American hospital receiving government funding of any kind (which is almost all of them) also has to provide free care to patients who are uninsured and unable to pay.  Many, if not most, Americans have private health insurance that covers most of the expense.  I haven't been hospitalized for COVID, but I had a knee replacement a few years back and my share of the bill was about 400 bucks total on more than $60,000 in charges.

Many of these fundies either have no insurance or very limited coverage.  So, they go to the ER whenever they're sick and then, claim that they cannot afford to pay the bill.  They have to provide proof of income, but most of these people have their own businesses and seemingly don't have much income, so it's not hard to do.  Gil Bates of the Bates family actually bragged about it.

I suspect that Dave Ramsey tells these folks to get free care by staying self-employed and making sure their income looks low on paper so they can take advantage of the hospital's obligation to provide care to the indigent.  An ethical financial planner would recommend making sure to have a good quality insurance plan and/or a medical savings plan. 

Some fundies use an insurance scam called Samaritan's purse which is much cheaper than regular insurance, but limits coverage.  As I understand it, when a medical expense is incurred, the family participating in SP submits the bill to the SP.  There is some sort of committee that meets once a month and, based on the amount of money collected in premiums, decides how much they will be paying out that month.  They then take a look at the claims made and decide which, if any, they will pay.  If they decide your claim is not as worthy as someone else', they won't pay anything and you would be responsible for paying it yourself even though you are paying premiums to SP.  From what I have been told, everyone who enrolls in Samaritan's Purse is also told that, prior to submitting any claim. they are expected to contact the hospital or practitioner(s) and tell then about their Christian faith and beg for the bill to be written off or discounted.  Not sure if SP requires proof that a claimant has done that before considering paying the bill, but it wouldn't surprise me.

Edited December 15, 2020 by doodlebug

[Churchhoney]

2 hours ago, satrunrose said:

Sorry, I'm not from the US so I may be totally missing something, but isn't being hospitalized with Covid incredibly expensive? As in, something a famous finance guy would tell you to avoid, whatever else your beliefs are? 

I think he's likely swallowed the strain of "conservative thinking" (for lack of a better description....nothing actually conservative about it, in my opinion...but a lot do sort of think of themselves as that, I think) that decided early on that public-health principles like mask wearing are all actually tyrannical, random and completely unjustified oppressive demands that interfere unjustly with conservative CHristians' FreeDumb, the highest value.  And that, therefore, the public-health rules are thus not only SO UNFAIR, they're almost certainly not even effective against infection.  (if the purported virus is even real!!!!) 

A whole lot of those who swallowed that early on pretty much seem to be ignoring any and all other considerations since, whether the considerations involve money, grievous sickness up to and including limb amputations and or even multiple untimely and horrible deaths of friends and loved ones. 

The long string of Ramsey's public-health-denying activities suggests that he's one of the people who went loony over this. 

It makes no sense. But he's far from alone. 

He does recommend that people buy health insurance, though, unlike some others of the conservative crowd. So to the extent he thinks of needing Covid-related medical care, I suppose he figures you'll get some of your bills paid at least.....However, my guess is that, like many others who are flouting all public-health recommendations, he's just so crazed about the evil being done to him and his crowd that he really isn't thinking about anything except the Horrible Tyranny of Social Distancing and its Horrible Effect on FreeDumb.

Edited December 15, 2020 by Churchhoney

[Churchhoney]

As somebody who doesn't watch much tv, I just became aware that there are now Real Housewives of Salt Lake City(!?!?)....when I came upon interviews with two now ex-LDS women who are on the show.

Haven't watched the whole interviews yet. But these two women grew up well outside Utah (one in Denver and the other in DC's Virginia suburbs--places LDSers consider to be on the mission field, they said!).

And they--and the host, who grew up in Houston--shed interesting light on the feelings of superiority kids in a high-demand religion/cult may experience when they're in the minority in their community and have reason to believe that their families are top of the heap in some way. 

I've seldom heard that point explained so clearly, so now I feel a little more illuminated about how the Duggar smugness may come about. These women's early lives were quite different from the Duggs' in many ways, of course. One grew up in a largely Arab and Persian neighborhood in VIrginia and as a high school student was one of two LDS representatives on DC's interfaith youth council and says she loved the diversity!

Despite the differences, though, the feelings of specialness they describe strike me as likely pretty similar to what the Dugg kids are taught.

(They go on to talk about what place education and career played in their thinking as young women.

One of them turned down a dream-job unpaid internship at the Smithsonian after her marriage and took a receptionist job to support her and her husband--who had an unpaid internship at the Treasury Department....

She found out after a few months that he had quit his internship after two weeks. Every day, he pretended to take the Metro to work but actually doubled back, returned home, and played video games all day with several LDS missionaries who were assigned to the area. Eventually he got caught and they both got called into their bishop's office......

Both women agree that, despite having talents and other interests, they were so steeped in the careers-for-you-don't-matter-just-get-married doctrine that thinking in terms of education and careers for themselves didn't even make it onto the radar screens when they were young. Now they gnash their teeth over that.)

EMLTA: These two great women are so worth a watch. So much honesty about being in and going away from a high-demand patriarchal religion. 

 

 

Edited December 20, 2020 by Churchhoney

[Zella]

4 hours ago, Churchhoney said:

As somebody who doesn't watch much tv, I just became aware that there are now Real Housewives of Salt Lake City(!?!?)....when I came upon interviews with two now ex-LDS women who are on the show.

Haven't watched the whole interviews yet. But these two women grew up well outside Utah (one in Denver and the other in DC's Virginia suburbs--places LDSers consider to be on the mission field, they said!).

And they--and the host, who grew up in Houston--shed interesting light on the feelings of superiority kids in a high-demand religion/cult may experience when they're in the minority in their community and have reason to believe that their families are top of the heap in some way. 

I've seldom heard that point explained so clearly, so now I feel a little more illuminated about how the Duggar smugness may come about. These women's early lives were quite different from the Duggs' in many ways, of course. One grew up in a largely Persian neighborhood in VIrginia and as a high school student was one of two LDS representatives on DC's interfaith youth council and says she loved the diversity!

Despite the differences, though, the feelings of specialness they describe strike me as likely pretty similar to what the Dugg kids are taught.

(They go on to talk about what place education and career played in their thinking as young women.

One of them turned down a dream-job unpaid internship at the Smithsonian after her marriage and took a receptionist job to support her and her husband--who had an unpaid internship at the Treasury Department....

She found out after a few months that he had quit his internship after two weeks. Every day, he pretended to take the Metro to work but actually doubled back, returned home, and played video games all day with several LDS missionaries who were assigned to the area. Eventually he got caught and they both got called into their bishop's office......

Both women agree that, despite having talents and other interests, they were so steeped in the careers-for-you-don't-matter-just-get-married doctrine that thinking in terms of education and careers for themselves didn't even make it onto the radar screens when they were young. Now they gnash their teeth over that.)

EMLTA: These two great women are so worth a watch. So much honesty about being in and going away from a high-demand patriarchal religion. 

 

 

That's very interesting and makes me rethink a coworker I once had. I have mentioned him and his family on here before. They were very fundie--though not aligned with Gothard or any leader that I was aware of--and his parents had wormed their way into another family company and then got multiple of their own children hired. This particular son had a very high opinion of himself, though you wouldn't pick up on it to begin with until you'd actually talked to him.

But one particular day in the breakroom he started talking about how he'd met his wife, and he went on and on about how when he and his brother first started working in their hometown (which was in the Buffalo, New York area) that all of the women were just so intrigued and enchanted with them. And I think I actually may have snorted or rolled my eyes because he felt compelled to elaborate that since he and his siblings were hidden away as good Christian homeschoolers that the other people in the area just didn't know they existed until they made their grand debut making sandwiches at Subway. (No, I am not exaggerating that for comedic effect. This is what he thought.)

And I might have bought that if he had been a stunningly attractive man. But he was just a very average-looking white dude. He wasn't Quasimodo, but there was nothing particularly striking or handsome or cute about him. 

I was always astonished by his attitude, but I do know his family really did think they were superior to the rest of us mere mortals, and no doubt that reinforced his own beliefs about how wild the women of greater Buffalo went for him when he graced them with his sandwich making skills. And I suspect his parents may well have been the one who told him and his brother these things too. 

He did seem to have an inkling as he was talking that maybe he should shut up (this was a recurring feature of talking to him--watching him have a dawning realization), so I don't think he'd ever seriously been confronted with the notion that his perception of his entrance into society was seriously flawed until he embarrassed himself in front of a bunch of skeptical and disinterested coworkers. 

I am sure the Duggars are the same way--constantly reinforcing how much better they are than everyone else, with nobody else to check that narrative or put it in perspective.  

Edited December 20, 2020 by Zella

[charmed1]

On 12/20/2020 at 8:57 AM, Churchhoney said:

One grew up in a largely Arab and Persian neighborhood in VIrginia and as a high school student was one of two LDS representatives on DC's interfaith youth council and says she loved the diversity!

I can believe it. I’m native to the DC area and most of us grew up thinking the Mormon Temple was Disney World. I recently had to break a young relative’s heart when I had to tell her that it wasn’t lol. It’s in Maryland, but it’s humongous and you see it from the Beltway looming over the horizon like a giant glistening castle. They were supposed to be finally opening it up for non-Mormons to view, but with Covid, I’m not sure they did. And yes, I have quite a few who friends are the children of parents who fled Iran in the late 70’s. I swore off the Housewives shows years ago, but now I’m intrigued (unfortunately)!

[emmawoodhouse]

One of the ladies interviewed didn't make the Housewife cut (the ethnic one). Heather Gay is on the show, presenting as a Mormon who was excommunicated due to her divorce but still attends services. She says it's tough in the dating world since she comes with the baggage of divorce and three daughters. As you might imagine, it's tough finding non-Mormon men to date in Salt Lake City.

[doodlebug]

1 hour ago, emmawoodhouse said:

One of the ladies interviewed didn't make the Housewife cut (the ethnic one). Heather Gay is on the show, presenting as a Mormon who was excommunicated due to her divorce but still attends services. She says it's tough in the dating world since she comes with the baggage of divorce and three daughters. As you might imagine, it's tough finding non-Mormon men to date in Salt Lake City.

I had friends who moved to Idaho in a job transfer and the area where they lived was heavily Mormon.  They were both Catholic by birth, but not practicing any specific faith at the time.  As soon as they moved in, various neighbors stopped by to introduce themselves and also to invite them to attend services at the local Mormon temple.  They politely thanked them, but had no interest in becoming Mormon.  After a while, they noticed that the neighbors weren't nearly so friendly to them.  They tried inviting them for cookouts or to see if they wanted to catch a movie or whatever and got turned down every time.  Meanwhile, despite the fact that there were many, many children in the neighborhood; their kids never got invited to play with other kids, they never got invited to birthday parties, the other parents at tee ball and such would virtually ignore my friends at the games and, once again, every effort their kids made to make friends with other kids was rebuffed. When they went to the grocery store and purchased coffee or Coke or beer, they got dirty looks from other shoppers and the clerks. They stayed less than 2 years and happily moved away.

[Zella]

Reverse example, but the county I live in is where a lot of the Mountain Meadows Massacre victims were from. People here have very long memories about that, so the LDS missionaries here really get the cold shoulder from most of the locals. I'm not even sure why they bother sending them, given the history. 

Edited December 23, 2020 by Zella

[awaken]

4 hours ago, charmed1 said:

I can believe it. I’m native to the DC area and most of us grew up thinking the Mormon Temple was Disney World. I recently had to break a young relative’s heart when I had to tell her that it wasn’t lol. It’s in Maryland, but it’s humongous and you see it from the Beltway looming over the horizon like a giant glistening castle. They were supposed to be finally opening it up for non-Mormons to view, but with Covid, I’m not sure they did. And yes, I have quite a few who friends are the children of parents who fled Iran in the late 70’s. I swore off the Housewives shows years ago, but now I’m intrigued (unfortunately)!

My daily commute 😊

[EAG46]

I'm from that area too!  The SURRENDER DOROTHY graffiti is now SURRENDER DONALD!  Okay back on topic: It's a shame that all the fundamentalist followers for all of the world's religions for the most part don't really get along, because if they gathered together they would really see how similar they would all be. They stifle their children's development, they treat women like second class citizens at best, they deny science and progress, they think their holy book written thousands of years ago is 100% the word of their deity and meant to be used 100% of the time for the modern day....

[marypat57]

I remember the first time I drove down the Beltway when I was visiting my brother (who had recently moved to northern VA).  I thought it was the Emerald City!
 

@EAG46:  I love the SURRENDER DONALD sign!!!
 

[Churchhoney]

On 12/22/2020 at 6:35 PM, charmed1 said:

I can believe it. I’m native to the DC area and most of us grew up thinking the Mormon Temple was Disney World. I recently had to break a young relative’s heart when I had to tell her that it wasn’t lol. It’s in Maryland, but it’s humongous and you see it from the Beltway looming over the horizon like a giant glistening castle. They were supposed to be finally opening it up for non-Mormons to view, but with Covid, I’m not sure they did. And yes, I have quite a few who friends are the children of parents who fled Iran in the late 70’s. I swore off the Housewives shows years ago, but now I’m intrigued (unfortunately)!

Driving on the Beltway, a friend of mine once remarked of the temple view, "Kind of makes you think of a murder being committed, doesn't it?" Once she mentioned it, while it was a little extreme, everybody in the car could see her point. 😁

Some years ago, I did work that required me to talk to a whole lot of LDS folks, both in the church and no longer in the church. That experience gave me a lot of food for thought when it comes to the difficulty of breaking with a high-demand intense religion, or even trying to modify one's beliefs while staying in it.

The intensity of being in such a self-isolating community provides strong benefits to people -- as well as some things many perceive as benefits when they're inside -- alongside some huge problems. And all that makes it really really difficult for people if they begin to doubt the validity of the thing. 

When I remember those conversations, it makes me feel that breaking faith with the family religion is about the last thing most of the Duggarlings would ever be able to manage. .... And I do think it's more likely that LDS members think of breaking away. It's easier to be skeptical of Joseph Smith's mystical pronouncements, made less than 200 years ago, in what's pretty much the modern era, than to doubt the validity of fundamentalist/Gothard teachings and preachings, which present themselves as mere interpretative theology, firmly based on books handed down from god thousands of years ago, not as whole new angelic revelations to somebody who could be your great-great-grandfather. 

Edited December 24, 2020 by Churchhoney

[crazy8s]

this popped up on NYT today an OP/ED by a filmmaker on the Ark Encounter. The Duggars love that place.

https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=406279613959680

sadly I didn't see any dinos

any way a 12 minute video - what I found interesting is the Ark Encounter has an ice skating rink and Zip Lines you can pay for, and one supporter proclaiming God, was standing in front of a store named Good Spirits, apparently a wine and tobacco shop.

[GeeGolly]

So Scientology did a Super Bowl ad. It makes me wonder, how did Gothard 'advertise' his bullshit?