S02.E08: Creator/Destroyer

[stcroix]

I've never read a true crime story where the murderer wasn't raised by inappropriate or mentally unstable or abusive parents or people.  I don't think Andrew was born 'evil'.  I think his father totally warped his mind from practically birth.  And his mother had mental and dependency issues.  So I do feel sorry for Andrew Cunanan.  Yes, he DID have choices to make in life regarding right and wrong, but who knows how his mind worked by the time he'd been so extremely molded by his father?  I mean, you beat a puppy every time he comes to you and he learns to be afraid of you.  You love on the puppy every time he is around you and he learns to love and trust you.  A baby would be the same and a young child who is repeatedly told he is 'special' and made to feel entitled over even his own mother will feel special and better than his mother.  What Andrew Cunanan did was wrong, but I have to say I knew there would be something in his past, in the way he was raised, to shape his personality.  Grown, no matter how upbeat and genial he could be to people, inside he had an overwhelming rage.

I've already watched this series from last to first a couple of shows ago.  Darren Criss does an amazing job in showing how Cunanan's personality unwinds.  I cant wait to see next weeks episode!  I'm going to rewatch the whole series backwards again :)

[Surrealist]

5 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

Apparently IRL (and this pertains also to the poster who surmised that Modesto's favoritism stemmed from Andrew's looking the least Asian of his siblings), 

  Reveal hidden contents

one of Andrew'solder siblings, Elena (I think she was second oldest) was blonde and blue-eyed, and this caused Modesto to believe that Mary Anne had cheated on him.  This soured him on the marriage and was when he started treating her like shit.

Thank you for bringing up Elena. I had read about that in the book too. 

[Robert Lynch]

9 minutes ago, stcroix said:

I've never read a true crime story where the murderer wasn't raised by inappropriate or mentally unstable or abusive parents or people.  I don't think Andrew was born 'evil'.  I think his father totally warped his mind from practically birth.  And his mother had mental and dependency issues.  So I do feel sorry for Andrew Cunanan.  Yes, he DID have choices to make in life regarding right and wrong, but who knows how his mind worked by the time he'd been so extremely molded by his father?  I mean, you beat a puppy every time he comes to you and he learns to be afraid of you.  You love on the puppy every time he is around you and he learns to love and trust you.  A baby would be the same and a young child who is repeatedly told he is 'special' and made to feel entitled over even his own mother will feel special and better than his mother.  What Andrew Cunanan did was wrong, but I have to say I knew there would be something in his past, in the way he was raised, to shape his personality.  Grown, no matter how upbeat and genial he could be to people, inside he had an overwhelming rage.

I've already watched this series from last to first a couple of shows ago.  Darren Criss does an amazing job in showing how Cunanan's personality unwinds.  I cant wait to see next weeks episode!  I'm going to rewatch the whole series backwards again :)

That is an interesting outlook as to how a person could be changed from birth to who they would later become. A lot of parents don't realize that their behavior could reflect on their own child's behalf. That's including former child star parents who don't admit their mistakes as well for not letting their kids be kids. It's like you are super and terrific all of a sudden, but when the reality hits, it's no longer true.

[darkestboy]

I thought this one was okay but it also felt like we really didn't need it either. Yes, Andrew's dad was awful but I don't think it needed an episode dedicated to him in order to emphasise the point though.

A good guest performance from Jon Jon Briones but either way, this one left me a bit cold. And it could've done with being at least 10 or 15 minutes shorter than it needed to be.

Certainly explains a lot of Andrew's entitlement issues, though obviously doesn't justify them.

Nice we got a little bit of younger Gianni at the start but I would've liked a bit more, 6/10

[khyber]

On 3/14/2018 at 8:26 PM, CeeBeeGee said:

Loved Mary Anne's 1981 ruffled Lady Di blouse in the scene where Andrew is interviewing at Bishop's.

 

I sat up when I saw that.  Since I am old, I actually had one of those at the time. 

[sugarbaker design]

13 hours ago, stcroix said:

What Andrew Cunanan did was wrong, but I have to say I knew there would be something in his past, in the way he was raised, to shape his personality.  Grown, no matter how upbeat and genial he could be to people, inside he had an overwhelming rage.

Right, but there have been people who underwent even more awful childhoods than AC, who have led lives of helping others, not destroying others.  He went through what he went through, just like the rest of us, but he still murdered people.  I can't blame the murders of those men on the way AC was brought up.  I blame them on AC.

Edited March 16, 2018 by sugarbaker design

[wovenloaf]

I actually liked this episode a lot.  I had been curious about what the deal with his dad was (it's been alluded to him fleeing the country, etc.), so I liked that we got some insight into that.  I also liked the insight into Andrew's upbringing.  Of course his crappy childhood doesn't excuse any of the monstrous things he does later, but I think you can still watch it and feel sympathy for a child stuck in the middle of it.   For example, I don't think that feeling bad for teenage Andrew during that scene with his dad in the Philippines is the same as excusing his later behavior, or blaming his childhood, or ignoring that other people had worse childhoods and don't murder people.  

[sugarbaker design]

6 minutes ago, wovenloaf said:

For example, I don't think that feeling bad for teenage Andrew during that scene with his dad in the Philippines is the same as excusing his later behavior, or blaming his childhood, or ignoring that other people had worse childhoods and don't murder people.  

Totally agree.  My sympathy for Andrew ended when he picked up the hammer and bashed Jeff's brains in.

Edited March 16, 2018 by sugarbaker design

[Chaos Theory]

2 minutes ago, sugarbaker design said:

Totally agree.  My sympathy for Andrew ended when he picked up the hammer and bashed Jeff's brains in.

But you can also say he hasn’t done that yet.    At this point in his life their is still points in his life where you can see the glimmers if hope and where he made the decisions that lead him to the hammer that bashed Jeff’s head in but he hasn’t done it yet.  Which is why I find this method of storytelling fascinating.

[Quiet1ne]

1 hour ago, sugarbaker design said:

Right, but there have been people who underwent even more awful childhoods than AC, who have led lives of helping others, not destroying others.  He went through what he went through, just like the rest of us, but he still murdered people.  I can't blame the murders of those men on the way AC was brought up.  I blame them on AC.

Not to mention all three of AC's siblings have been productive members of society despite growing up in the same house with the same messed up parents.

[Spike]

Andrew lied so much people didn’t believe him when he told the truth.  I remember an episode where he claimed to have been given the master bedroom as a child and was disbelieved.

High school kids think a song that is two years old is ancient, so I doubt in 1987 they would be listening to Whip It at a party.  It was from 1980.      And by 1987 new wave as a genre was pretty much DOA, being replaced by hair bands like Poison and Bon Jovi.  For dance music white kids were probably listening to Rick Astley then.

It’s interesting that we have witnessed Andrew’s first meetings with all the victims except Miglin (the murder of Reese also being the first meeting).  Miglin was shown at the party at Norman’s house, but they obviously knew each other already. 

[CeeBeeGee]

8 minutes ago, Spike said:

It’s interesting that we have witnessed Andrew’s first meetings with all the victims except Miglin (the murder of Reese also being the first meeting).  Miglin was shown at the party at Norman’s house, but they obviously knew each other already. 

I was thinking that as well, that they're shrouding the provenance of that relationship in mystery. OTOH I think we can surmise he probably met Miglin through Norman.

[Florinaldo]

16 hours ago, stcroix said:

I don't think Andrew was born 'evil'.  I think his father totally warped his mind from practically birth.  And his mother had mental and dependency issues.

Parents can certainly influence their children's personality and shape it in part. But can they really completely create it from nothing? I think that there must be some sort of predisposition to take certain paths in your character development or to make some life choices; as has been pointed out, not all mistreated and spoiled kids end up as mythomaniac killers. Humans are creatures of biology and some psychological aspects of our personality are predetermined.

There are also cases of "good kids" who grew up in demonstrably happy homes that end up shooting up their school or become violent criminals.

 

1 hour ago, Chaos Theory said:

But you can also say he hasn’t done that yet.    At this point in his life their is still points in his life where you can see the glimmers if hope and where he made the decisions that lead him to the hammer that bashed Jeff’s head in but he hasn’t done it yet.  Which is why I find this method of storytelling fascinating.

I think it is still possible to feel sympathy for the younger versions of AC, a feeling inevitably coloured by what we know will happen. This coexistence of apparently contradictory feelings may create a certain discomfort or even a degree of guilt in some viewers; good drama does that at times.

It is also possible to feel sorry about the waste that will eventually take place: not only the lives AC will needlessly take, but also the waste of his own potential. It does not excuse him, but it is immensely unnerving and sad that a human can take that route instead of others that would have been more positive of productive.

Edited March 16, 2018 by Florinaldo

[Ailianna]

On 3/15/2018 at 8:35 AM, sashayshante said:

The benefit of telling the story backwards is that everybody knows how the story ends 

 

Actually, not everyone does, although it's getting harder and harder to remain unspoiled as the show goes on. I couldn't have told you who AC was before this show, and had only a vague recollection that Versace was murdered--if pressed to come up with 5 facts about Versace, I probably couldn't have done it, and might not have come up with more than he was a flashy designer.

21 hours ago, truthaboutluv said:

While the young boy was played as mostly passive, I thought his interview with the school administrators did show shades of the person Andrew was and eventually became - that constant need for attention, to feel special, to be liked, the neediness, etc. And yeah the young boy may have seemed confused and quiet but they made sure to show the full petulant, annoying, entitled, attention seeking brat by the time he was in high school. 

 

I thought his scene opening the acceptance letter was a particular show of his brattiness and entitlement.  Everything that wasn't the envelope for him was just discarded on the floor like garbage--not important and not his problem to pick up.  I thought that was a good small way to show his "me first and only" attitude.

23 minutes ago, CeeBeeGee said:

I was thinking that as well, that they're shrouding the provenance of that relationship in mystery. OTOH I think we can surmise he probably met Miglin through Norman.

I think since there's no proof, only speculation, that they ever met (prior to the murder), we won't see that meeting.

Edited March 16, 2018 by Ailianna

[TexasGal]

33 minutes ago, Spike said:

Andrew lied so much people didn’t believe him when he told the truth.  I remember an episode where he claimed to have been given the master bedroom as a child and was disbelieved.

 

And the twist about his father working for Merrill Lynch - yeah, he wasn't when Andrew told the guys at the bar but he HAD.

[Spike]

For someone who studied that big etiquette book Andrew didn’t even acknowledge the letter carrier much less thank him.

[bosawks]

44 minutes ago, Spike said:

For someone who studied that big etiquette book Andrew didn’t even acknowledge the letter carrier much less thank him.

Letter carriers aren't worthy of etiquette.......

[itsjustme]

This season could have easily been only 6 episodes.

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's Previously.TV's EPIC OLD-SCHOOL RECAP of the episode!

Jack Of All Trades, Master Of One On American Crime Story

And that one is lying, as 'Creator/Destroyer' paints a portrait of the (bullshit) artist as a young man in our Epic Old-School Recap.

[txhorns79]

Quote

What Andrew Cunanan did was wrong, but I have to say I knew there would be something in his past, in the way he was raised, to shape his personality.  Grown, no matter how upbeat and genial he could be to people, inside he had an overwhelming rage.

I think he was a spoiled little boy who grew into a spoiled, petty man.  His parents clearly set a terrible example and help bring him up with warped values.  However, I don't recall either of his parents suggesting murder was the way to accomplish your goals.  I fully believe whatever rage he felt was simply a reflection of his own, finely honed narcissism.  He believed his own hype, and decided that he was entitled to start murdering people in order to get what he wanted, whatever that might have been.  He deserves no sympathy, and if I were the families of his victims, I would truly wonder where they are going with all this, and what they hope for the audience to take away from this series.         

[helenamonster]

Watching Modesto ruin his family like that reminded me of the father of a kid I went to high school with, except instead of investment fraud it was insurance fraud. This kid and his family had been super rich, they had a freakin' yacht, and he was applying to all Ivy League schools...and then his dad got caught and sent to prison, the family lost everything, and the younger sister of the kid in my grade ended up killing herself not too long after. Look, murders can be covered up, rapes can be explained away, but do not fuck with people's money. You will get caught.

Not that it's any of our business, but does anybody know what happened to the other Cunanan children? It seemed like they got the hell out of dodge as soon as they could...I hope they're leading fulfilling, productive lives.

I wasn't around in the '80s so I laughed something fierce when Modesto unveiled the car he got for Andrew and it was the fugliest thing I'd ever seen in my life. And then Andrew pulls into his high school parking lot and all the cars look like that! What was our damage, America? Why did we decide this hideous style of automobile was what we wanted?

[SarahPrtr]

On 3/15/2018 at 10:25 PM, txhorns79 said:

I'm just going to note that plenty of people from backgrounds much worse than Andrew's are able to overcome those obstacles and make it in life, or at least they don't resort to becoming serial killers.  As portrayed by the show, Andrew wanted everything handed to him and did not want to work for it.  He's been shown to be a lazy, spoiled liar who becomes violent when confronted over his mistruths, or when his vision of a perfect life is threatened.  His parents may have played a role in making him what he was, but ultimately the choice was Andrew's.  I just can't countenance the idea that he had never had the chance for something different, because they've shown he very clearly did.   

Definitely.  I've always thought that, although you could be from the most screwed up family with the most awful parents, at some point, you become your own person and make your own decisions and leave.  Not that easy.  Yeah, I know.  It's waaayyyy more difficult to unlearn all the bullshit you've been taught over the years and relearn everything.  But it's not like he was locked inside the house or lived isolated from everyone else and the only contact he had was with his family members (which is what Charles Manson did with his followers - he took them to the middle of nowhere with no radio, television, newspaper or other people).  AC lived in a major city, went to high school with other teenagers, met other people who were different from his parents.

 

Actually, they interviewed one of the Manson cult survivors whom the other members tried to drug and have killed.  Her name was Barbara Hoyt and although she was once a devoted Manson cult member, when she heard about the Sharon Tate murder, she kind of 'snapped out of it' and tried to escape.  When asked by a psychiatrist if there was something in her upbringing or value system which stopped her from doing what the other members did, she said  "They didn't seem to care about the suffering of the victims... but I did."

 

On 3/16/2018 at 12:15 AM, icemiser69 said:

I think that was pretty obvious from the start.    From the very beginning, Andrew's mom was portrayed as a very abused woman  (probably from her grade school years and her early childhood home life).  Only a very abused/emotionally destroyed individual would put up with Modesto's bullshit.   The woman needed/needs some serious help and all Modesto could do was rip her to shreds mentally and physically knock her down at every opportunity.

I believe that everyone deserves respect unless they give a reason not to be respected.   Everything that Modesto had done in this episode would destroy any respect he thought he deserved.

 

I was looking into AC's mother and her upbringing but couldn't find anything, but it's actually not just the people who were abused in their younger years who put up with it.  There comes a time when the abused person actually does have some power over the abuser and become the enabler.  Sounds impossible, but it's true.  I'm going to bring up a personal story because it hits very close to home.  My mother was raised in the most loving family with the best parents and had really happy younger (pre-marriage) years.  My father is an abusive, misogynistic sadist and ultimately her decision to stay became hers.  She saw him beating and torturing me for years and did nothing (I left as soon as I could).  People will quickly come to her defense (and not mine, go figure - I was a child, ffs) and say that she was helpless.  NO, she was NOT.  She had her whole family to turn to.  She also has lots of brothers and you would think that they would all beat the shit out of my father or something, but she pretended it wasn't happening.  I'm sure all abused people have different stories and there are countries and cultures where it's not socially acceptable to divorce, no matter the circumstances, but America and Australia (where I am) aren't those places. 

 

On 3/16/2018 at 2:22 AM, tennisgurl said:

You know what? This whole show is turning into a bizarre, psychotic riff on Death of a Salesman, especially this episode. It has the dad from humble roots desperately trying to live up to an impossible to attain idealized "American Dream", and that obsession, and delusion that if you just kept pushing, things will work out even in the face of reality, eventually destroying the family. The story of Andrew and his father could certainly be summed up in the message of the show, that if people want to find fulfillment, they have to actually look for something deeper than material wealth and being "liked" by everyone, even if its a very shallow kind of liking. You could even see Versace as a variation of Biffs dorky friend who Willie looked down on as "being liked but not WELL liked" but ended up working hard and becoming the success that no one in the Loman family could ever be because he wasn't obsessed with the idea of being successful, and just did what he liked doing. I mean, I could totally see Andrews dad telling him that being liked is the most important thing to being successful. 

Of course, its a MUCH darker version of the story with way more child abuse and murder, but I do see some parallels, even if they weren't intentional. 

OMG! YES!!!!  Funny you mentioned that because I was talking about Arthur Miller and Marilyn Monroe to my husband a few weeks ago and I mentioned this book to him!  And mentioned the part about Willy's insistence of the importance of being well-liked.  It ultimately destroyed him.  Poor Linda.  Putting up with all of his bullshit for so many years.  And Charley, who also put up with Willy's bullshit and 'lent' him money all the time.  'Lent' because Willy was never going to pay him back.  Always chasing something flashy and big, and not realising that you need to start at the bottom and put up with people's shit for many years before you become successful enough to make it on your own.

 

On 3/16/2018 at 2:35 AM, dubbel zout said:

I LOVED the look on his face, "Yeah, right. But whatever, I'll take a look at your application."

Exactly. Andrew's upbringing certainly shaped his attitudes and entitlement, but to quote myself, that doesn't mean you kill people because they don't prop your stupid dreams.

Jon Jon Briones at Modesto was fantastic. Really superlative.

The people I felt sorry for in this episode were Andrew's siblings. They were barely afterthoughts to Modesto. As others have mentioned, I'd also get out of that house as soon as I could.

Mr Thrifty knew that AC was lying, but then again, there are rich people who do the right thing and make their children WORK minimum wage jobs to teach them the value of working and dealing with everyday people.  Those parents are doing it right.  One of my first jobs as a teenager was at a bakery and there was a new guy who came from a rich family.  Everyone was talking about him like he was this big important person because his father was rich.  But there he was, working in a bakery with all of us 'normal' people.  So I guess his father told him to go get a job, and he did.  I ran into him at university some time later and he recognised me and said that he was studying electrical engineering and was a Nice Guy, not stuck up, entitled wanker from a rich family.

 

AC would look down at Mr Thrifty but I have a great deal of respect for first generation Americans who come with very little, speaking little to no English and they spend all of their waking hours working hard in thankless jobs, going to English classes, putting up with unnecessary shit from people, all so that they could move up in the world.  They understand how lucky they are to be living in the US and they really do work for the American Dream.  'Normal' jobs are absolutely nothing to sneer at.

 

On 3/16/2018 at 4:39 AM, sashayshante said:

They're trying way too hard to humanize Andrew. That's the biggest problem I have with last night's episode.  Something tells me Andrew was petulant and bratty even as a child, but we didn't see that. We saw some poor confused boy who cried when he found out he was accepted to a private school because it meant his father would bear down on him even more. Sorry, but I don't buy  this idea that Andrew didn't love the overwhelming adulation he received as a child.  I think it goes deeper than his parents spoiled him. I think he developed a personality disorder very young and his parents behavior exacerbated it.

There are people whose parents spoil them rotten and give them everything, but as a child of these parents, you can't stop or help what your parents do.  If your parents want to spoil you, then they will.  BUT!  That is not the same as letting your kids get away with anything and everything and NOT TEACHING THEM what's right and wrong.  Also the importance of teaching them to share, be kind and Be A Good Person.  You don't need to feel guilty about having received nice things as long as you understand how lucky you are to have been given privileges and use it to help others.  What happens to you as a child and where you come from, you have no control over.  But what you do when you're an adult, that's all on you.  Yes, he was a bratty, entitled child who talked about himself and only himself all the time.  Psychiatrists are reluctant to label people under the age of 18 as sociopaths because adolescent behaviour differs so wildly (actually a teenager's brain does often function like they have a mental illness - hence, the frequent mood swings), but I do believe that there are young children who are lacking in empathy and conscience and they NEVER grow out of it.  In fact, they get worse.

 

That part about his siblings doing all the lifting for moving house while AC didn't have to was true.  He also spent a great deal of his childhood inside with his mother with books and memorising passages from the Bible and encyclopaedias and being given special privileges without having to earn it.  But as I mentioned earlier, as you grow up, you do know the difference between right and wrong.  Especially for someone who's as intelligent as AC.  He had a genius-level intellect.  Are they trying to say that someone who is that intelligent didn't know that it's wrong to take without having earned it?  You don't need to be taught that to know it.  He memorised the Bible, for goodness sake!!  The BIBLE!!!

Edited March 17, 2018 by SarahPrtr
typo

[MerBearStare]

On 3/14/2018 at 11:02 PM, Robert Lynch said:

Can they release the soundtrack after this season ends? I love the use of the songs in this season so far. 

Not quite a soundtrack, but I'm following an ACS playlist on Spotify: https://open.spotify.com/user/1276752895/playlist/5cbctTm9BJHXqsFh3FuiiI?si=c5szDVMrTkmXJrhQ3fxJGw

[meep.meep]

On ‎3‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 8:53 AM, sugarbaker design said:

Right, but there have been people who underwent even more awful childhoods than AC, who have led lives of helping others, not destroying others.  He went through what he went through, just like the rest of us, but he still murdered people.  I can't blame the murders of those men on the way AC was brought up.  I blame them on AC.

And people reached out to him and tried to get him out of the lies, and he just kept doubling down.  Norman offered to put him through school.  David told him that he didn't need to hear lies and wanted to know the real Andrew.  Nothing changed him.

Raising kids, you always encounter the Nature vs. Nuture discussion.  There's a lot to be said for Nature - that what you are is actually hard-wired into your genes.

[Florinaldo]

14 hours ago, SarahPrtr said:

He memorised the Bible, for goodness sake!!  The BIBLE!!!

Just as any religious book, the principles advocated by the bible are not to be taken automatically as an absolute moral standard.

Besides, there are in that book countless stories of murder, rape, incest, genocide and other forms of violence, often mandated by god. Great inspiration for a potential delusional killer.

ETA: Add Barbra Streisand to the list of people who love the show: "But perhaps most entertaining was her exchange with Ryan Murphy after informing him she’d recently binge-watched American Crime Story: The Assassination of Giani Versace. “It’s very scary to me,” she told Murphy. “I had to go fast. I like the parts with Penelope Cruz and Edgar Ramirez, but I don’t like him [Darren Criss as Andrew Cunanan]. He [Criss] was so good but he [Cunanan] was so awful. It’s like ‘Oh this poor individual.’ This is true stuff about him?” A question to which Murphy incredulously replied “Yes,” and then told Streisand, “Barbra, why’d you watch that? That’s not for you. Go and see Glee.”

Edited March 17, 2018 by Florinaldo

[vixenbynight]

22 hours ago, itsjustme said:

This season could have easily been only 6 episodes.

Praise Gianni that it wasn't. 

[itsjustme]

15 minutes ago, vixenbynight said:

Praise Gianni that it wasn't. 

You mean the  Gianni who has barely been in it?  :)

[vixenbynight]

30 minutes ago, itsjustme said:

You mean the  Gianni who has barely been in it?  :)

Yup. Exactly. 

[Florinaldo]

1 hour ago, vixenbynight said:

Praise Gianni that it wasn't. 

Yes. I would easily have watched another two episodes filling up some of the events or developments skipped over in the last two episodes; there is enough material in Orth's book for that, atlhough it would have required some more speculation and plausible recreation. It would also have afforded the writers an opportunity to flesh out the contrast between GV and AC in the younger phases of their lives, especially how they went about making their way in the world, in widely different manners and outlooks.

[Glade]

I really thought in the earlier episode that Andrew was lying to DM when he described how his parents gave him the master bedroom...that part was true, but he failed to mention that his father took advantage of this to sexually abuse him in the master bed, and that his father's wealth and career was a lie even before Andrew became a liar himself. 

That Andrew was the 'golden child' of a pathological narcissist makes perfect sense.  Isolating a child with excessive praise and preferential treatment and thereby making them dependent also makes it a lot easier to sexually abuse them; it's not as if Andrew could/would go to his mother or siblings about that, especially since it could mean losing his special status, which he does anyway when he is discarded without a second thought by his disgusting father who no longer deems him valuable or interesting.  These truths were obviously too painful for Andrew to face, and so instead he builds up successive worlds of lies, where he is estranged from his parents but their wealth and his status was always real and can't be changed. 

That scene in the car outside of the party was kind of refreshing in that for once the older men in Andrew's life weren't portrayed as innocent victims, but rather predatory creeps grooming and using a minor for sex.  I'd say in real life, most of the time, it is the young men who are hurt, exploited and abused more in such relationships, given the obvious power differential.  

I also don't believe that anyone is born evil or a killer, and actually, it's a whole lot easier to pretend that the widespread abuse of children doesn't happen or have any effect on later outcomes but present it all as 'genetic' then to face the truth.

In this era of extreme wealth inequality and extreme tax cuts for the already wealthy, it occurs to me that someone behind this show has a great amount of guillotine anxiety; is worrying that instead of worshiping their wealthy, powerful idols, young people might rise up and decide to kill them instead. So they continuously lash out at the very idea that Gianni (a 'good' practitioner of the american dream, who surely 'earned' every bit of his extreme wealth and power) would be killed by Andrew (a 'bad' practitioner of the american dream, right alongside immigrant farm workers, walmart employees, the homeless, single mothers, victims of human trafficking, who work just as hard as Gianna or harder but get nowhere.)

Edited March 17, 2018 by Glade

[pennben]

On 3/14/2018 at 10:33 PM, sashayshante said:

This episode really lost me. The parallel (if you can call it that) between AC and GV is now really contrived.......

Hee!  I giggled a bit at that in this episode......opening scene:  Gianni Versace was once a child; quick cut to Cunanan who was also a child who we will spend the episode on!  The parallels....amazing!:)

The reverse chronology just doesn't work for me.  And, when I think about what seems missing here, is that this really isn't even about Cunanan, it's more about the people he meets along the way....David, Jeff, the Miglins, etc.....perhaps that is somewhat the point...there really was no there, there in this guy?  And then we get to his childhood, and I just can't care because I spend the episode wondering what they made up versus what is real and I've spent no more than five, maybe ten minutes with this guy throughout the series when I think I can actually see who he was, so I really just don't care who he was back as a child. 

Oh well, despite that, here I am.  Onward to the finale!  

Edited March 18, 2018 by pennben

[Florinaldo]

18 hours ago, Glade said:

That scene in the car outside of the party was kind of refreshing in that for once the older men in Andrew's life weren't portrayed as innocent victims, but rather predatory creeps grooming and using a minor for sex.

In that scene, I thought that AC was portrayed as sincere in his belief that there was something more, something real, between him and his older boyfriend. I suppose that the resulting disillusionment could be seen as an education for him, leading to realise that there is an easy path for making money, if he only tweaks the power dynamics in such relationships.

 

18 hours ago, Glade said:

I also don't believe that anyone is born evil or a killer, and actually, it's a whole lot easier to pretend that the widespread abuse of children doesn't happen or have any effect on later outcomes but present it all as 'genetic' then to face the truth.

I am not sure that AC has been described as being " born evil", probably an excessive notion anyway. However I think that there can be definite predispositions in us, dictated by biology and genetics, which vary from people even in the same family and contribute to shaping one's personality and decisions, in conjunction with education and rearing. Which would explain why in one group of siblings provided with the same general environment growing up and the same educational resources, one can grow up to be a very talented artist while others can't draw a stick figure to save their lives; or why a sister can be proficient in science while her brother can barely remember the difference bewteen an electron and a proton. Or why in a music class everyone gets the same lessons and training but one or two people just have the natural talent and potential to become professional musicians and sometimes great ones, while most of their classmates are at best competent. Same with behavioural traits, including criminality and violence which turn up in some people but not in others. 

 

18 hours ago, Glade said:

So they continuously lash out at the very idea that Gianni (a 'good' practitioner of the american dream, who surely 'earned' every bit of his extreme wealth and power) would be killed by Andrew (a 'bad' practitioner of the american dream, right alongside immigrant farm workers, walmart employees, the homeless, single mothers, victims of human trafficking, who work just as hard as Gianna or harder but get nowhere.)

I am not convinced that the show is pushing that broad message or is making the value judgements you are describing regarding those various categories of people, or even ordinary citizens (the category most of us fall in I would surmise). Being a wealthy superstar is not the alpha and omega of measuring achievement, as the pharmacy owner indicated in the previous episode. People can lead productive lives without ever reaching the absolute zenith in their field; a few have it in them, like GV did, some mostly have unrealistic expectations as apparently was the case with AC, and still others consistently just do a good job and can thus be described as successful without being overachievers. 

Edited March 18, 2018 by Florinaldo

[FormerMod-a1]

10 hours ago, pennben said:

...  And, when I think about what seems missing here, is that this really isn't even about Cunanan, it's more about the people he meets along the way....David, Jeff, the Miglins, etc.....

And this is what I'm loving about the show.  It's about the victims as much as (and sometimes more than) anything else.  These forgotten or unknown (to many) victims.  It's humanizing these "other"/non-famous victims, showing the world they were good people, makes you feel more for them when AC kills them.  They are not just a faceless number in the murders before GV.

[NinaH]

2 hours ago, aquarian1 said:

And this is what I'm loving about the show.  It's about the victims as much as (and sometimes more than) anything else.  These forgotten or unknown (to many) victims.  It's humanizing these "other"/non-famous victims, showing the world they were good people, makes you feel more for them when AC kills them.  They are not just a faceless number in the murders before GV.

Exactly. I appreciate the stories of the other victims being told, before they’ve been nothing more than footnotes in the GV saga. I don’t think GV would’ve wanted them to be forgotten and the focus be mostly on him. And while no one will ever truly know “why”, I like that we have some reasonable possibilities as to why AC was the way he was and did what he did. 

[jumper sage]

On 3/16/2018 at 1:42 PM, Spike said:

High school kids think a song that is two years old is ancient, so I doubt in 1987 they would be listening to Whip It at a party.  It was from 1980.  

Then how do you explain grown women screaming at the revival of The Backstreet Boys?  My kid just turned 21 and will still sing along to songs like:  Mmmm Bop, Tubthumping etc.  I can still picture him in his car seat jamming along in the backseat.

My siblings and I love Dionne Warwick whom we listened to and from the Detroit area all the way to Manitoulin Island (shout out to Ontario).  Say a Little Prayer and Do you know the way to San Jose was rocking all the way there and back.  Back in the 60's 70s you had to take a ferry.  Our family would go with a couple of neighbor families and stay at the same cottages every year.  On the ferry we would all sing her songs acapella.  We all now own that same album on CD.

This show really makes me feel bad for the whole Versace family and all the other families impacted by the deadly onslaught.  I do like that we now know who the others were and they are being painted in a very good light.  I only hope the families aren't upset to dredge this all up again.

[lulugirl896]

This episode hit me hard- I don't think it was so much the way Modesto treated Andrew that was revealed- it was the (terrible) blueprint for what it meant to be a man that was modeled for Andrew. His father lied so easily, changed moods with the winds, and terrorized every one around him. Even while he was traumatized, you could see moments where he was in awe at his father. Especially that scene where he rolled the window up with his mother outside- that cruelty was straight from his father's playbook. 

I agree that a crappy childhood doesn't a murderer make, but it certainly doesn't help the situation. 

And as far as the order of the series- I have found myself fascinated at how the relationships began even while I knew how they ended (especially David and Jeff). I love how details come in to play much later (like the name of the homeowner, DaSilva). It definitely works for me and is an unusual approach. 

[locomoco]

On 3/15/2018 at 6:46 PM, Robert Lynch said:

Was it just me or did the kid playing Andrew resembled a young Mark Paul Gosselaar a bit?

Mark Paul Gosselaar is actually part Asian as well... I believe he's 1/4 Indonesian

[mojoween]

I think I'm most curious why Gianni, his mother, his teacher and his rotten classmate were speaking English in Italy in 1957.

I actually found this episode a real slog to get through, but the actor playing Modesto (Jon Jon Briones, I presume?) has a beautiful, soothing, mellifluous voice.  I want him to follow me around and talk to me.

[andromeda331]

I liked that Gianni's mother didn't want to push him into the dressmaker business she wanted him pick what he wanted. I really didn't feel sorry for Andrew in this episode. Yes, his father was an abusive asshole. I felt more sorry for his siblings who got treated like crap.  I did like that scene between Andrew and Peter in the Manila that was really good. Andrew calling his father on his crap and his father calling him on his crap. True the father was worse at that point. But Andrew could have decided when he returned not to be like that man. He already knew at that point his father was a lying, abusive piece of crap who stole money and abandoned his family. He could have gone a different route, he chose not to.    

[Chaos Theory]

On 3/16/2018 at 12:56 PM, Quiet1ne said:

Not to mention all three of AC's siblings have been productive members of society despite growing up in the same house with the same messed up parents.

Andrew was by far the favorite child.  He was singled out for favorite treatment by both parents but especially Modesto.  He got the master bedroom of the family home and the only television.  He was the only one to go to private school.  

I think the three other kids survived as well as they did because they were ignored.  They did however write a book.  

[CeeBeeGee]

1 minute ago, Chaos Theory said:

Andrew was by far the favorite child.  He was singled out for favorite treatment by both parents but especially Modesto.  He got the master bedroom of the family home and the only television.  He was the only one to go to private school.  

I think the three other kids survived as well as they did because they were ignored.  They did however write a book.  

Did they?! How fascinating, what's the title?

[dubbel zout]

53 minutes ago, mojoween said:

I think I'm most curious why Gianni, his mother, his teacher and his rotten classmate were speaking English in Italy in 1957.

You, me, and the Vulture recap.

Considering how short those scenes were, there's no reason there couldn't be subtitles. They subtitled the Latin lesson, after all.

[Chaos Theory]

21 minutes ago, CeeBeeGee said:

Did they?! How fascinating, what's the title?

Andrew Cunanan: An American Tragedy

by Christopher Cunanan, Elena Cunanan-Johnson, Terry Lee Johnson, Corri Planack, James Shadid

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/29432818-andrew-cunanan

 

To be honest I am not sure the book is available anymore.   It might have been one of those self published books that went nowhere.    Just like Modesto had tried at one point to capitalize on the murders.

Edited March 20, 2018 by Chaos Theory

[helenamonster]

3 hours ago, mojoween said:

I think I'm most curious why Gianni, his mother, his teacher and his rotten classmate were speaking English in Italy in 1957.

I really wished they'd spoken Italian. But Sarah mentioned it in another episode, about how Gianni and Donatella speak English even when it's just the two of them--American audiences really don't like subtitles.

[Florinaldo]

1 hour ago, helenamonster said:

American audiences really don't like subtitles.

Yes, that's the general understanding about the attitude of US viewers towards subtitles; that reputation might perhaps be a bit exaggerated but subtitled movies do fare less well than dubbed ones in the States. And since this was the opening sequence, the show could have run the risk of having many people tune out because of it.

Edited March 21, 2018 by Florinaldo

[dubbel zout]

Dubbing drives me crazy because I know the people aren't speaking the dubbed language.

[Chaos Theory]

1 hour ago, Florinaldo said:

Yes, that's the general understanding about the attitude of US viewers towards subtitles; that reputation might perhaps be a bit exaggerated but subtitled movies do fare less well than dubbed ones in the States. And since this was the opening sequence, the show could have run the risk of having many people tune out because of it.

 

51 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

Dubbing drives me crazy because I know the people aren't speaking the dubbed language.

It actually depends for me but if I had to chose I would normally pick dubbed.  I don’t hate subtitles but with subtitles your eyes go towards reading and end up missing half of what is going on.  With dubbed once you get passed weird lip movements you can watch the entire screen.

[WearyTraveler]

9 hours ago, mojoween said:

I think I'm most curious why Gianni, his mother, his teacher and his rotten classmate were speaking English in Italy in 1957.

And with an Italian accent! I could understand if they chose to have the characters speak English for the sake of not having subtitles, there are movies about people from other countries where the characters speak English all the time and audiences understand that this is done for them because they know the characters would be speaking their original language, but why would they choose to have them have an accent?

6 hours ago, helenamonster said:

Gianni and Donatella speak English even when it's just the two of them

This I can understand, many people who emigrate to another country choose to speak only that country's language, even with others who speak their language.  And when you are fully bilingual, all it takes is one word in another language to flip the switch in your head and continue the conversation in that language.  It happens to me when I'm with bilingual friends all the time.  We could start a conversation in Spanish, then one of us would use a word in English because it's shorter and that's what your brain tends to do (pick the shortest word to express meaning), and then the conversation would be in English for a while.

4 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Dubbing drives me crazy because I know the people aren't speaking the dubbed language.

I know! Me too. I can't reconcile the way their mouths move with the sounds they are making. And there's always something weird about the way the dubbed track is laid on top of the original track,  it just sounds so fake.  Takes me out of the story all the time.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

10 hours ago, mojoween said:

the actor playing Modesto (Jon Jon Briones, I presume?) has a beautiful, soothing, mellifluous voice.  I want him to follow me around and talk to me.

If you like his speaking voice, you should hear his singing voice! He is most well known for starring as the Engineer in Miss Saigon. He started in the ensemble of the original London production in 1989 and eventually was the alternate for the Engineer in the West End production. He then played the Engineer on tour and then years later he was cast as the Engineer for the West End revival and the Broadway revival (which just closed in January).

Skip to 1:36 to just hear him singing Stars from Les Misérables:

If You Want to Die in Bed from Miss Saigon:

 

The American Dream from Miss Saigon:

Edited March 21, 2018 by ElectricBoogaloo

[mojoween]

Ohhh thank you for that!  Les Miz is catnip to me.

He looks so different with a buzz cut, but not any older.  It looks like that clip is seven years old but facial wise he hasn’t changed very much.

One of the articles linked (Vulture, I think) had a link to the shirtless yearbook picture and that was the first time I've ever seen Andrew look like a normal kid.  Most of the other pictures I’ve seen of him were after he killed Gianni and he looked like a strung-out monster.