S04.E12: A Dark Knight: Pieces of a Broken Mirror

[ElectricBoogaloo]

Quote

In the spring premiere, Gordon is called to the scene after the Toy Maker is hired to assassinate one of Gotham's doctors. Lee Thompkins begins to try to rebuild the Narrows with Nygma as her partner. Meanwhile, Alfred's new life in the Narrows becomes complicated and Ivy reveals her new persona to Selina.

Promo:

[Danielg342]

"We're going to have so much fun together!"

I think we will. :)

[RandomWatcher]

Ivy 3.0

Riddler as a second personality

Bruce dickery

Gordon has terrible luck with women

 

I love this show.

[WritinMan]

Good return episode--a lot of action.

Possible Gotham spin-off: The Adventures of Bullock and Alfred.

[HoodlumSheep]

Gotham's back y'all!!!

• This episode went by surprisingly fast
• Brucy boy :(
• RIP diner girl
• Alfred...it's good he sticks up for people like that, but he's so prone to jumping in head first with violence and his temper...like, dude. Listen to jimbo for once and calm down. You handled that situation terribly. 
• Glad to see the writing for jim is still at the same level as it was in 4a. Still far from perfect, and he's definitely still trigger happy...but better than what season 2 and 3 gave us. I'll take what i can get.
• Harper!
• Ivy 3 is a thing now
• I don't care what people say, I love butch and tabs so much. They're so sweet together and the actors sell the heck out of their scenes together.
• I also rather liked Jim and Lee's scene together. They acted like adults and it was a little bitter sweet. Nicely done.
• If doctoring ever doesn't work out for lee she could make a killing as a motivational speaker
• Nice bait and switch with the lee-toymaker-ed-riddler thing. Wasn't expecting that twist.
• Lucious lucius is always good to see. I feel like since jim and harv have split up, he's been getting more screentime, which is nice.
• Jim and Harvey: status: still divorced, with harvey telling jim to sort out his issues before there's a chance of them getting back together.

All in all a pretty decent opener. 

[tennisgurl]

I missed this crazy, crazy show so very much. 

I thought the reunion between Lee and Jim was actually quite nice. I actually remembered why I liked them so much originally. They both have a darkness, but also a core of goodness, and they actually act like adults in a relationship. That kind of fell apart with Lee and Jim killing her crazy boyfriend, but they seem to be on a better track now. 

Harvey and Alfred for the win! I love them hanging out and being a team of drunk bitter snarky dudes, but I hope they get back to their son/BFF soon. These separations ate killing me. 

"Thats so Gotham." Yeah, a toy maker who does assassinations on the side with his toys is pretty classic Gotham. Looks like Ed has a split personality issue, which is pretty classic for Batman villains, I can dig it. 

New Ivy is still Lisa Snart to me. 

[Danielg342]

Meh.

Not that I should have expected any different- Gotham's premieres tend to be little more than setup for what is to come, with the real excitement coming in the later shows.

Still, this really felt like a mixed bag.

Not sure I dig Ivy 3.0. Granted, they never should have given up on Ivy 1.0, but at least Maggie Geha had some life. Peyton List is just..."blah". She has so few emotions, I'm not sure if she's really Peyton List-Bot and not actually human.

Heck "Ivy 3.0" might just be a good name for her anyway...because she's practically a robot now anyway.

The Sirens were also hit or miss...Barbara's always fun and Selina is Selina- she always brings it to every episode. However, they really didn't have much to do except open their club, and Tabitha and Butch were saccharine.

"I've always loved you, Tabby."

Blech.

Speaking of love...Diner Girl was gone, gone way too soon.

*sigh*

She seemed only to be there to cause Alfred manpain, and I have to call out Gotham on using a character so disposable.

Especially because Diner Girl and Alfred truly did have a connection.

I mean, couldn't Alfred just beat the tar out of her boyfriend and then he gets arrested for beating up his girlfriend? Why does she have to die?

Which brings me to Jim...Case of the Week wasn't really that interesting, aside from Ed's on point "That's SO Gotham!" explanation for the crime.

Jim investigating Alfred was more fun.

Speaking of which...Alfred beating the tar out of that big dude and his mates was fun. Like the big guy thought he had a chance.

Heh. Does he know who he's dealing with?

That was one of the episode's few highlights for me.

Bullock Meter

It's back! Not that I saw anyone ask for it...

...but, it's my post. So it comes back. So there.

Harvey Bullock didn't have much screen time in this episode, but what we did see was pretty good. Bullock swinging the baseball bat and helping Alfred out was fun, but the real treat was seeing him chew out Jim.

"You expect me to be your priest, but I won't do that."

Nor should you, Harvey. Jim has to show he actually values your friendship and isn't just going to you because it makes him feel better.

They have a lot to work out, but it looks like it could be fun.

I also hope that Harvey stays a bartender for quite some time- it suits him far more than being the mopey cop.

Still, good start.

[Lantern7]

Just posted on tonight's Arrow. I think we need to hold onto Gotham now more than ever, because the batshit insanity and broken friendships are way more fun to watch.

Let's see . . . .Ed finds out that Tyler Durden the Riddler is back and causing shit without him being aware. Alfred gets to beat the shit out of assholes, and Harvey helps. Leslie is basically the dude from The Warriors that tries to unite the gangs of New York. I'm hoping she doesn't go out the same way. What else . . .  we get a theme villain, but he gets killed because we got Jerome foaming on the sidelines. The "Sirens" have commercials . . . and how old is Selina? The ad felt like one of those sex phone line commercials. Oh, and Ivy has evolved again (more like a Pokemon, realy), and she's even closer to canon. And she's got powers and a mad-on against people who fuck with nature. And she wants to team with Selina. Okay, then. Shit, and Bruce is still circling the drain, Wheeeeee.

Seriously, we had a wooden solider shooting at James and Lucius. I missed you, Gotham.

[tennisgurl]

I loved when the coroner cut open the dead guy and gross plant stuff came out, and Lucius was like "awesome!" I miss Harvey and Jim, but Lucius is a pretty fun partner for Jim to have for awhile. 

Edited March 2, 2018 by tennisgurl

[thuganomics85]

Didn't hear about them having another version of Ivy.  That character has been all over the place hear.  Sucks for Maggie Geha, but I guess they think someone like Peyton List will fare better with the more "seductive, sultry" version that I'm guessing they are aiming for.  But I'm just bummed it probably means  once again that the chances of Peyton returning to The Flash as Lisa Snart, are slim to none.

I love that even the characters are just admitted how wack Gotham is, with Nygma all "Well, of course a toy making assassin would try to take out Lee with a bomb toy plane" at first, and then Lucius seeing actual ivy come out of a corpse's chest, and just be all "Are you seeing this shit?!  This is awesome!" about it.

Is Alfred actually homeless or is he just living in a downtrodden area (the Narrows?)  Sucks that they already killed the waitress he was making a connection with, but that does tend to happen a lot on Gotham.

Nygma has full-blown split personalities now, I see.

Bullock is now a bartender and wants nothing to do with Jim.  Can't say I really blame him, honestly.

On one hand, Bruce is clearly spiraling out of control and will crash hard.  On the other hand, David Mazouz really is doing a great job with drunk, party boy Bruce.

Welcome back, Gotham!

[Chaos Theory]

Oh how I missed your crazy ass Gotham.   You are so much fun to watch.  I mean did anyone not see Nygma as the would be killer of Lee?  Still I am loving Lee as the new head of The Narrows.  It is so much fun.  Especially watching the look on Jim's face as he realizes that she is the "Doc" that he has been looking for.

Also as always Barbara made good use of her limited screen time.  Honestly I would love to see Babs and Lee join forces.  What is it about our good Jimbo that turns his exes into lords of the underworld?

[Philbert]

Oh Gotham, you crazy, crazy show. How I have missed your over the top insanity. A toymaker who moonlights as an assassin using a model airplane to assassinate a doctor turned rabble rouser. Ed's right. That is so Gotham.

No sofia, Oswald or Jerome this week but it looks like they'll be back very soon.

Bruce is still a dick. Snap out of it soon kid. Gotham's going to need you.

Poor Alfred. Quite possibly the most stand-up guy on this show and easily the unluckiest. Sean Pertwee owns this character...and given who's played him in the past, I think that's saying something.

Riddler's back. Always a plus. 

Jim, sighs...you're just such a...sighs.

Yay. Harvey's back....for about 3 minutes. But in those three minutes he manages to save Alfred's life, help catch a murderer, and give Jim the lecture that only Harvey could give. Seriously. Go fuck yourself Jim.

The Sirens are okay but that's about it. I like Butch/Grundy and Tabitha and that scene was fine but I'm not sure where they're going with this.

Ivy. This character does nothing for me. I hated Uma Thurmond playing her in "Batman & Robin"-I don't care for any of the actresses playing her now, except the first one. She wasn't bad. This is just a problematic character that hasn't been developed very well and hasn't had the benefit of first class acting to make up for the lack of depth.

Great way to start the second half of the season overall. 8/10

[Kostgard]

Good to have the insanity back.

Jim continues to suck harder than a Dyson when it comes to detecting. His method seems to be “Just believe what the first person tells you and don’t actually do any police work.” Instead of maybe checking to see if the boyfriend had a history of domestic violence, he basically immediately lays into Alfred. Then he fires several bullets into the toy maker’s chest, then is all, “Damn! He’s dead!” Jim is the worst.

”How you been?” “Awesome.” I love you, Harvey. And I love you even more for reading Jim the riot act (in front of Alfred), then just turning around and sharing another shot with Alfred. Kick rocks, Gordon.

Lee is going to have to come up with more than this Underpants Gnome plan for fixing up the Narrows. So far she’s just shouting slogans without a plan for how she’s going to make these changes. She should be running for office.

I was grossed out by a Lee/Ed pairing, but I could get behind it if one personality is courting her while the other keeps trying to blow her up.

Butch/Grundy may have his memories back, but obviously not enough cognitive functioning to realize he needs to comb his hair. He looks like a toddler who just woke up from a nap.

So far I like the new Ivy. I can appreciate anyone who sits around watching TV in an evening gown while eating ice cream straight from the carton.

I do wish they’d give the Sirens more to do than walking around all smuggity-smug. I did enjoy Selina’s completely bored, flat affect in their commercial, though.

Edited March 2, 2018 by Kostgard

[BonnieD]

So, like any politician, Lee is full of grandiose, rah-rah, let's join together speeches without actually outlining HOW the poor of the city should accomplish their goals. sigh. They really do write the citizens of Gotham, both poor and wealthy, as lemmings carried along by whoever is speaking to them at the moment. Perhaps they all deserve the city they've created. ;)

Almost too many characters now to give everyone their just screen time, but when each character is trotted out and allowed their moment to shine, they sure rise to the occasion. Love love this wacky show. Also, considering one of my pet peeves is the way teens acting out are portrayed on just about every show, I really don't mind seeing Bruce act like a petulant brat. If anyone has earned the right to sulk for a while, it's him.

[Chaos Theory]

Quick question

Asking for a friend

Are you supposed to be rooting for the bad guys on Gotham?

Even the slightly dark guys/gals like Le has become are far more interesting now that she has taken over the Narrows

Honestly i’d watch a show on that.  Breaking Narrows .  

[Biggie B]

Is it me, or did Alfred look even hotter than usual in this episode? He looked younger, leaner, and trimmer, and I loved his all black, more casual (yet exquisitely fitted) clothing, a very welcome change from his formal, pinstriped butler attire. Smokin'! However, he really did goof when he beat up the boyfriend in front of the waitress, then lets her get in the truck and drive away with him. Of course the boyfriend's going to beat the life out of her! How could Alfred not realize that? Instead, he just watches her go, with a reminder to "Be careful - stay safe." Alfred never, EVER should've laid hands on the boyfriend or said so much as boo to him, as that would only incite the BF to be even more abusive. That was a blunder, and a severely costly one at that. 

Alfred's interaction with Bullock in the bar, though, were top notch. "Sorry I'm late - I was in the john." Oh Harvey!! And yes, everything Harvey said to Jim was spot on. Jim deserved that tongue lashing and then some. 

I don't care for the new Ivy character. Cat's like a ping pong ball now, about to ricochet between Ivy and the Sirens, and no good will come of either association, I fear. I'm glad, though, that Cat said the obvious out loud to Bruce about his behavior. I agree with BonnieD that Bruce has earned the right to act like a jerk - for now - but it'll be a relief when he snaps out of it.

Line of the night went to Ed, of course: "That is SO Gotham!" 

[Sakura12]

10 hours ago, Lantern7 said:

Just posted on tonight's Arrow. I think we need to hold onto Gotham now more than ever, because the batshit insanity and broken friendships are way more fun to watch.

Let's see . . . .Ed finds out that Tyler Durden the Riddler is back and causing shit without him being aware. Alfred gets to beat the shit out of assholes, and Harvey helps. Leslie is basically the dude from The Warriors that tries to unite the gangs of New York. I'm hoping she doesn't go out the same way. What else . . .  we get a theme villain, but he gets killed because we got Jerome foaming on the sidelines. The "Sirens" have commercials . . . and how old is Selina? The ad felt like one of those sex phone line commercials. Oh, and Ivy has evolved again (more like a Pokemon, realy), and she's even closer to canon. And she's got powers and a mad-on against people who fuck with nature. And she wants to team with Selina. Okay, then. Shit, and Bruce is still circling the drain, Wheeeeee.

Seriously, we had a wooden solider shooting at James and Lucius. I missed you, Gotham.

Selina's 18, so she's legal. But that commercial was awkward. Lol. Tabby and Selina don't know how to sell sexy on camera, probably because they didn't want to be on it. 

At first when Ivy said she hated Selina, I was like why? Then found out she meant Tabby which makes more sense. Selina was always trying to help Ivy in her own way. I'm all for a team up with the real Gotham City Sirens of Ivy and Catwoman.  As for Ivy the third, I guess I can go with Ivy's a plant that keeps changing as she grows. She has her powers now so she's finally more like her comic counterpart. 

This is show so crazy, and I love it and I love that even the characters are like "a toymaker/assassin, well this is Gotham and Gotham will Gotham" 

While I find Bruce annoying right now, this will help set up party image that he can keep when he finally gets his act together. Also don't mess with Alfred. I hope we get more Harvey and Alfred scenes now that he broke up with Jim. 

[Danielg342]

53 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

Are you supposed to be rooting for the bad guys on Gotham?

They did play a perilous tune when Nygma was threatened by the Toymaker, so maybe.

I do think this show tries hard to create characters who are not cut and dry "good" or "bad"- everyone has a touch of both.

[Kostgard]

1 hour ago, Chaos Theory said:

Quick question

Asking for a friend

Are you supposed to be rooting for the bad guys on Gotham?

Even the slightly dark guys/gals like Le has become are far more interesting now that she has taken over the Narrows

Honestly i’d watch a show on that.  Breaking Narrows .  

Well, considering how much the hero of the show sucks, it’s kinda hard not to root for the bad guys.

 

But seriously - they do a good job of adding humanity to the villains. Oswald is really more of an anti-hero at this point (I honestly feel like they occasionally make him do something really bad solely to remind everyone he’s a bad guy). Catwoman has always been an anti-hero, so Selina fits that mold, and Lee is getting there. You can’t help but feel bad for Ed, who is struggling with mental illness.

 

We care about the villains because we know why they are the way they are. They showed us what makes them tick. I have a hard time embracing Jim because I don’t feel like I know what makes him tick. I don’t know why he’s so shitty. I mean, I get Harvey way more than I get Jim, and he’s had a fraction of the screen time. Jim isn’t the only one - the way they wrote Lee last season was terrible, and injecting herself with the virus made zero sense. I never really understood why she did it.

[Chaos Theory]

I understood why Lee injected herself with the virus.  Pain,  rage and self hate are hard to translate onto the screen.  She just got to the point where she wanted to punish herself Gotham and well Jim.   So it made sense if you understand the way anger works in Gotham.    

[Kostgard]

18 minutes ago, Chaos Theory said:

I understood why Lee injected herself with the virus.  Pain,  rage and self hate are hard to translate onto the screen.  She just got to the point where she wanted to punish herself Gotham and well Jim.   So it made sense if you understand the way anger works in Gotham.    

 

I don’t really understand how she was punishing herself, though. It’s not like people injected with the virus felt any adverse effects - they just got strong and angry and terrorized others. They needed to find a cure not because people were dying from the virus, but because the infected were ripping the city apart. And after she injected herself, Lee just put on some dark eye makeup, shoved Butch around a little, buried Jim alive and then sat around drinking wine and talking about Jim’s darkness. Then she tried to run away with her “true love” Jim - how is that punishment? I mean, Jim sucks, but Lee doesn’t think so.

Maybe she was hoping someone else would kill her like Jim did Mario? Maybe. But that wasn’t clear, especially since she spent a good deal of her infected time just sitting on a couch waiting for Jim to show up. Maybe hoped the virus would give her the guts to commit a crime that would land her in prison for life? Maybe. But again, the worst thing she did was bury Jim alive and that was to force him to inject himself with the virus so they could be together. Hardly self-punishment.

Now, if the virus DID kill people after a period of strength/euphoria, that would make sense. Basically it would have been a slow suicide. If she stole the police’s one sample of the virus because she was determined to figure out a cure (to prove they could have helped Mario) even though she wasn’t really qualified and fucked it up and got infected in the process, that would have made sense too. Instead she stole the only sample the police had, thereby delaying the cure, for...reasons.

[Writing Wrongs]

That Sirens commercial was cracking me up.

I called Riddler hiring Toy Maker without Ed knowing it about halfway through.

I really enjoy this crazy show.

[Philbert]

5 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

 

Are you supposed to be rooting for the bad guys on Gotham?

 

 

If you ever find the answer to that question please come back here and share it with us all. It is interesting that the two shows about Gotham I've seen-this one and the 60's "Batman" pretty much had the villains as the center stage attraction. In the 60's people apparently tuned in just to see which aging movie star was going to show up that particular week. Is any of this planned? You'd have to ask Bruno Heller but I doubt you'd get a straight answer out of him.

[Danielg342]

4 hours ago, Kostgard said:

I have a hard time embracing Jim because I don’t feel like I know what makes him tick.

I think S4 has done a great job stating that Jim is driven by his ego. Jim wants to feel better about himself, and he does that by being "the hero" and getting all the adulation that comes with that. Jim has proven, time and again, that he will do whatever it takes, even if it means cutting a corner or cutting out a friend, to get his desired outcome.

[Kathemy]

8 minutes ago, Danielg342 said:

I think S4 has done a great job stating that Jim is driven by his ego. Jim wants to feel better about himself, and he does that by being "the hero" and getting all the adulation that comes with that. Jim has proven, time and again, that he will do whatever it takes, even if it means cutting a corner or cutting out a friend, to get his desired outcome.

That's what makes him such a great and relatable lead character.

[Tachi Rocinante]

Is Peyton List always this wooden?  Who did the other actress piss off?

I like Morena Baccarin, but her speech felt flat and uninspired.

Bruce is still a dick.

I hope Selena's bit in the commercial was supposed to be bad.

Nygma is Mr. Robot now?

[Lantern7]

16 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

Selina's 18, so she's legal. But that commercial was awkward. Lol. Tabby and Selina don't know how to sell sexy on camera, probably because they didn't want to be on it.

I thought she was near Bruce's age. While the commercial was a little much, I like Selina's contribution. "You'll like it. Trust me." Sorry if I botched the quote. Honestly, I feel that Selina is the most consistent female character four seasons in. I know she's not as entertaining as some of the others, but she doesn't HAVE to go out-and-out insane. Unless Ivy does something to her.

[Snookums]

Gotham's back and better than ever! And by better I mean absolutely fucking bonkers.

Pretty good setups for going into the second half, and Jim was refreshingly low on the dummy meter. Maybe his ability to teleport all over the city to various crime scenes that really should be taken care of by detectives is cutting back on his worst excesses in that direction. However, he should have known to put Alfred in a car first thing and haul him down to headquarters--like, Jim, come ON. You know he's gonna pull the whole Shadow thing the first second he can.
 

Quote

Alfred...it's good he sticks up for people like that, but he's so prone to jumping in head first with violence and his temper...like, dude. Listen to jimbo for once and calm down. You handled that situation terribly.

 

Ironic that he kept lecturing Bruce about that very thing! And yeah, you basically set up the situation so I said aloud "she's dead" the second she got in the truck, Al. Because one thing abusers do NOT take kindly to is being called out on their shit, and he's not gonna take it out on you. That poor character was fridged so quickly she got freezer burn. 

Elsewhere in Gotham, Ivy 3.0 is...interesting. I guess they wanted to show how different she is in her "stages," like from seed to bud to full bloom so they aged her up again, but I really miss second Ivy--she was so refreshingly childlike in her motivations. But it would be creepy for her to suddenly act so much older and murdery, so they took it in another direction. 

(And naturally she's happy to see Selena: not only are they old friends, Sel is looking like dandelion these days. That hair was almost a perfect circle! Glad to see she got to do that flat, not into it read on the 1-900-IFFY ON THE WHOLE LIQUOR LICENSE THING commercial, though.) 

Speaking of hair, Babs' is much better--that headband makes a world of difference. Her playing with Jim was perfectly in character for her, as was Jim's "This again? ...fine, whatever" reactions. Everybody's got at least one ex who enjoys yanking your chain, I guess. I couldn't even get too mad at him for not figuring out it was Lee since he had no idea she was back in town, and didn't spend half the day running around the docks going "but what else could it mean?"

Lee, I know you're kind of new to this whole leader of a mob army thing, and you're doing a bang up job as a motivational speaker (until the Narrows stops crab bucketing itself everything else is futile, she's perfectly right about that) but eventually you are going to need money. Serious money. More than you're going to make on Grundy/Butch matches, for sure. I wonder if she's going to team up with Falcone Jr.? 

The Butch and Tabby scene was so sad. I did wonder why she was so hesitant when it seemed she wanted Butch back in the first place, but his new look does take some getting used to. I hope they manage to get together, but it will probably involve yet another band break up after Tabs confronts Babs while Selena sulks around in the background.

Harvey! Good to see ya! Thanks for calling Jim on his shit! These two and their relationship definitely need a reset and Harvey refusing to go the more of the same route was refreshing.

Quote

So far I like the new Ivy. I can appreciate anyone who sits around watching TV in an evening gown while eating ice cream straight from the carton.

Exactly where is Ivy hanging out? Is the apartment's tenant due home anytime soon? 

 

 

Quote

Is Alfred actually homeless or is he just living in a downtrodden area (the Narrows?) 

No, he lives there (he told Gordon when Jim asked him what he was doing there after the big guy beatdown.) I still don't get A) who the hell is watching Bruce, because you can't just have your lawyer emancipate you without going to court and he's underage so would legally have to have another guardian and B) why Alfred didn't just move into the damn Batcave; it's not like anybody else is using it. For ANYTHING.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

One thing I liked about this episode is that it was about the characters from S1. I understand why the show keeps bringing in other characters and villains, but it was nice to get back to the core group from the beginning and seeing how much their relationships have changed since then.

Selina in the Sirens commercial was hilarious. Her dead faced "It's nice" totally cracked me up.

Harvey coming in to save Alfred was awesome.

Loved that when the coroner sliced open the dead body, Lucius got all excited about it being full of poison ivy.

OF COURSE there is (well, was) a toy maker/assassin in Gotham.

Edited March 3, 2018 by ElectricBoogaloo

[darkestboy]

Good mid season premiere. The Narrows plot with Leslie is a lot better than it should be and having Nygma being the one who set the Toy Maker on her was an interesting enough move. I'm liking this struggle that Ed seems to be having at the moment.

Gordon was just Gordon but he got some great scenes with Ed, Leslie, Barbara and Alfred though.

Alfred's subplot was decent enough but I'm glad they didn't prolong it though. Nice way to reintroduce Bullock into the mix.

Ivy's return was interesting, quite liked her scenes with Selina and at the Sirens club as well. Good Butch/Tabitha scene as well.

That Sirens ad was cheesy as hell but I loved it, 8/10

[Delphi]

I loved Selina just completely not understanding Bruce.   Get your shit together kid.

I'm not really seeig why they needed to recast Ivy to take the character in this direction, Maggie was just fine,  I don't get it.

[paigow]

3 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Would someone pay the damn electric bill?  That episode was incredibly dark, it was hard to see a damn thing?

Maybe the lighting crew from Walking Dead got hired....

[superloislane]

I liked this episode and everything it set up.

Lee has been much better written this season after I felt they completely destroyed her last season. But while she's good at speeches, at some point she will have to act on some of the things she's saying - does she actually have a plan? Does she have any money? Is that going to be an issue going forward and is this how she loses her support?

Jim has known Alfred for several years now so I don't see how he could even for a split second think he murdered a random girl all of a sudden. I also didn't like how they had him say well done to Nygma when he was outside with the toy maker - Jim should know that if you see Nygma with another villain, it's probably not good. Speaking of whom, I have started to like Nygma again after hating him in season 3 but that's because the Riddler hasn't been around. I just hope his Riddler persona isn't as annoying as it used to be.

I can understand why Bruce is acting out and drowning his sorrows - he's been through a hell of a lot and he's only like 16. But I feel like they gave him a complete personality overhaul - I just hope his eventual 'I have been a dick and I need to get back on track and get Alfred back' moment is written well. Gotham needs its Baby Bat back!

I still don't like what they've done with the Sirens - they kind of made them into a joke instead of an actual threat. They have consistently failed to do everything they have set out to do - sure they have the club now but who cares? And I get Selina being shocked at what Bruce has become but at the same time Selina did help to kidnap a child and threaten to kill him in the last episode so really, what has she become?

I like the whole Alfred story and I'm glad we're learning a bit more about him. I feel he's been ignored for a while. But attacking the boyfriend and then letting the diner girl go with him was a really dumb move. I know he had very good intentions but he should have known the girl would end up dead or bloody. And I find it hilarious that Alfred has only been on his own for about a week and he's already a murder suspect! He really has the worst luck!

More Lucious is always a good thing! And the way he was so excited when he saw the plant coming out of the body was hilarious!

And of course, Ivy no.3. I still don't know why they had to change the actress from the last one - did they not think Maggie Geha could pull off the dangerous vibe or something? And why didn't they just have her be like this to start with? It really feels like they have no idea what to do with this character. I can only hope they have an actual plan for her now.

Really looking forward to the next one - Bruce dreams of bats!

Edited March 3, 2018 by superloislane

[Danielg342]

5 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

they should have gotten the character right the first time.

Ivy should have grown up to be someone who enters crime from an early age, being the "bad" influence for Selina while Bruce is the "good" one. Ivy's father was killed right in front of her, that should have inspired her to become a criminal.

I do believe the constant redrwing of Ivy is part of Gotham introducing too many canon characters too soon. Ivy's S1 story could have easily been told by a stock character or a non-canon character, she didn't need to be there.

[Proteus]

So Gothams back & a mess as always. It's clear these writers, and I use that term loosely, don't know what they're doing & have no game plan whatsoever.

I knew TPTB didn't have guts to really do Grundy. They love Butch and his chemistry less relationship with Tabitha too much. So now he's just Grundy in looks but will have Butch personality. They promoted Grundy far too much over the summer to be left with this mess.

Of course Barbara gets only a few seconds of screen time. No surprise. So much for all that development they promised over the summer. She's right back to where she started: Doing nothing but run that stupid club.

I still don't get why Bruce is acting like a little snot. Relieved he was hardly on.

So we're now seeing the same Riddler/Nygma mess we have since season one. That's why I can't invest or care about his relationship with Lee. No point in caring when you know it's going to get ugly as expected.

Ivy 3.0 Whatever. This character is such a mess. They need to just cut their losses and get rid of her altogether. 

[Last Time Lord]

On 3/1/2018 at 9:03 PM, RandomWatcher said:

Ivy 3.0

Riddler as a second personality

Bruce dickery

Gordon has terrible luck with women

 

I love this show.

I am in 100% agreement with this haiku. 

[Kathemy]

Doux Reviews: Pieces of a broken mirror

[Dobian]

I still love this show, it stays true to itself and every episode is packed full of fun.  I really like how the characters really evolve on this show in fun ways.  Now Ivy really is Poison Ivy.  Good developments should follow.  It was great seeing Harvey step in to save Alfred.  We need him back in action.  I felt bad for the diner lady.  Her time in Gotham was brief and tragic.  Bruce is still an ass but it looks like that is changing next week.

[jhlipton]

On 3/3/2018 at 10:40 PM, Proteus said:

They love Butch and his chemistry less relationship with Tabitha too much

On 3/4/2018 at 4:47 AM, Kathemy said:

Doux Reviews: Pieces of a broken mirror

Quote

In the ongoing fiasco of the Grundy and Tabitha "romance"

 

I guess I'm the only one who likes Butch and Tabitha and hope those crazy kids get it together (but I agree that Tabitha rejecting Butch made zero sense).

[darkestboy]

I don't mind Butch and Tabitha but it does seem like the Grundy plot is being abruptly finished off though, unless something else later in the season reverts him back to being Solomon.

[Kathemy]

10 hours ago, jhlipton said:

I guess I'm the only one who likes Butch and Tabitha and hope those crazy kids get it together (but I agree that Tabitha rejecting Butch made zero sense).

Oh, I liked Butch and Tabitha too, that's why I'm angry with the show for doing such a piss poor job with them lately.

[TobinAlbers]

Bullock's verbal shredding of Jim was brutal. Warranted, but brutal. Loved the little self-conscious side-eye Jim threw Alfred when Bullock mentioned Jim nailing Sofia and how Alfred lowered his eyes and looked away. The whole scene was such an awkward bitter angry ex trying to keep their distance from their apologetic still messy ex. Jim was like a whipped puppy with how sad and somber and accepting he was with Bullock's dismissal.

They REALLY swerved with Ivy by taking her from the open, naive, a little slow fun Ivy and making her coldly angry, over it, and seeking control and power. I get what Peyton List is doing, but I do miss Maggie Geha.  They should've let her have a longer tenure and be part of the Sirens, get fed up with Tabs and Babs dismissing her and THEN she have another metamorphosis into Ivy 3.0.

[jay741982]

On 3/3/2018 at 12:54 PM, Delphi said:

I loved Selina just completely not understanding Bruce.   Get your shit together kid.

I'm not really seeig why they needed to recast Ivy to take the character in this direction, Maggie was just fine,  I don't get it.

Plus she was sexy and had the same red hair that Ivy does in the comics and the Animated series 

[TresGatos]

The the 1920s-esque bordello at the beginning was everything I love about Gotham in one tine, gorgeous, throw-away piece.

Selina kind of broke my heart in the 1-800 commercial but good to see she can still get under Bruce's skin.

[John Potts]

Ivy! My you've grown up - and, well, out.

Newsflash Jim: Women can be doctors these days. I know, somebody should have told you - like your ex-girlfriend, perhaps?

On ‎02‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 2:27 AM, HoodlumSheep said:

Alfred...it's good he sticks up for people like that, but he's so prone to jumping in head first with violence and his temper...like, dude. Listen to jimbo for once and calm down. You handled that situation terribly.

Amazing that he's been a moderating influence on Bruce, if that's how he acts. Any idiot could see that her abuser would take it out on his victim, though I was surprised it jumped straight to murder. Attacking him without any proof was always going to make things worse for her.

On ‎02‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 5:33 AM, Kostgard said:

Then he fires several bullets into the toy maker’s chest, then is all, “Damn! He’s dead!”

But who could have know that shooting somebody might be dangerous!? Though considering everyone who's come back from the dead on the show... maybe not as dangerous as you'd expect.

On ‎02‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 1:14 PM, BonnieD said:

So, like any politician, Lee is full of grandiose, rah-rah, let's join together speeches without actually outlining HOW the poor of the city should accomplish their goals. sigh. They really do write the citizens of Gotham, both poor and wealthy, as lemmings

Yes, it was a speech long on hope and entirely empty of content. So you're going to knock down the Slums? Isn't that where most of your crowd currently live? Are they going to shack up with you while you build them new homes (with whose money)? Why not set up a neighbourhood watch scheme? Or even a "Narrows Court"? At least those would be practical steps you could actually take!

Overall though, it was so Gotham!

[Joe Hellandback]

On ‎02‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 2:27 AM, HoodlumSheep said:

I don't care what people say, I love butch and tabs so much. They're so sweet together and the actors sell the heck out of their scenes together.

Me too, beauty and the beast! It's so heartrending when he turns the light off so that she can't see him as he is now. 

On ‎02‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 3:48 AM, tennisgurl said:

I loved when the coroner cut open the dead guy and gross plant stuff came out, and Lucius was like "awesome!" I miss Harvey and Jim, but Lucius is a pretty fun partner for Jim to have for awhile. 

 

 

Yeah, very Spock, 'Fascinating!'

On ‎02‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 1:18 PM, Chaos Theory said:

Quick question

Asking for a friend

Are you supposed to be rooting for the bad guys on Gotham?

Even the slightly dark guys/gals like Le has become are far more interesting now that she has taken over the Narrows

Honestly i’d watch a show on that.  Breaking Narrows .  

I think that's one of the things that makes the show great, you care for the villains as much as for the heroes, they're real people, fleshed out characters and strangely likeable. 

Thankfully E4 decided not to have a mid season break and just crack on with season 4, meaning we can catch up on this side of the pond. Ideally this can continue and then lead directly into season 5 for us? 

1. New Ivy is nice, I'd like to see the other 2 actresses at least cameo some time, maybe if she could see how her life could have worked out?

2. Harvey has some interesting taste in hookers. We know he likes redheads so maybe he could fall for Ivy? He seems to have quite a following amongst the ladies, reminds me of Dennis Franz on NYPD Blue. 

3. Lucius, yay! And given more to do than normal, maybe he should get a gun?

4. The model looks more like a Spitfire than a Mustang and it beggar's belief there would be so much of it left after the explosion?

5. Alfred's SAS ring doesn't look like it, it should be a winged dagger?

6. The Siren's ad is HILARIOUS! They look like they're auditioning for Dynasty. Tabby says it's the last time Barbara will get her on camera? Did she want them to make a sex tape? Do porn? It's amazing to watch these three staggeringly gorgeous and talented actresses deliberately acting so wooden and unsexy. 

7. I can't decide if Bruce's jerk act is a plan or real? After he fired Alfred I thought it had to be real but then Pyg and Sofia had me fooled in that regard? Selina seems to have her (feline?) instincts about him though?

8. I love Barbara's malevolent glee at teasing Jim over 'The Doc', I'll forgive him his little bit of sexism at assuming the Doc was male. The way Lee and Jim ignore Ed whilst talking is priceless. 

9. So what now for Butch? I figure he heads back to Lee and acts as her guardian angel;

Lee; "You were faking?"

Butch/Grundy; "You were always good to me, even when I was Grundy. I'm accepted here and I believe in what you're doing"

10. I can see Ed leaving Lee not because he doesn't love her but because he knows as long as he's around her The Riddler will want to kill her.  

11. New Bromance between Harvey and Alfred, maybe they can become PI's together? Of course in real life beating a guy so he retracts his alibi wouldn't work but as Bruce observes, TIG. 

12. Nice bait and switch with the Toymaker and Ed, you wonder for a moment if Sofia/Oswald had sent him to off Ed?

Now of course the Toymaker is a character who goes all the way back to the Lynda Carter Wonder Woman series (played by Frank 'The Riddler' Gorshin) and he used bombs on remote controlled planes back then too, plus his trademark clapping monkeys. One of the criticism's of the series (and Nicholas Hammond's contemporary live action Spiderman) was that it never featured any classic DC/Marvel villains, nearly always generic mad scientists and gangsters in three piece suits but now it seems to have created one, presuming the son takes over the family business?

(Disturbing to read the comments and see how many people wanted the real Wonder Woman to lose but then not everyone watched this show for its' message of female empowerment? A lot watched it to see Lynda Carter in her outfit knocked out and tied up). 

I was always waiting for some wider DC references in Gotham, even a mention of Metropolis or the IADC or something (which even Lois and Clark/Batman Forever managed) but unless someone can correct me I think this is the first one on Gotham I can think off?

Edited June 27, 2018 by Joe Hellandback

[John Potts]

11 minutes ago, Joe Hellandback said:

Harvey has some interesting taste in hookers. We know he likes redheads so maybe he could fall for Ivy? He seems to have quite a following amongst the ladies, reminds me of Dennis Franz on NYPD Blue.

I did like that Harvey's always been what is (politically incorrectly) referred to as a "Chubby Chaser", so they kept that consistent (and that Gordon recognised that, too).

Nice to see the occasional "lesser" villain like the Toymaker (doesn't his son take over the role when his dad retires/dies?).

[Camera One]

I really liked this episode, and seeing a bit of everybody.

It's disappointing another innocent got killed, and Alfred's decisions were pretty stupid, but still, I enjoyed seeing Alfred in a different setting.  I also liked his scenes with Harvey.  

The Nutcracker shooting at Jim and Lucius was pretty hilarious, as well as that seek and destroy robot.  These are the types of things I really like about this quirky show.  

I hated how Bruce was so cruel with Alfred in the last episode, but he was amusing in this one at the club.  I think we've seen enough of him drowning in alcohol and sex to forget his pain, so hopefully they move on soon.  I wouldn't mind the character keeping some of his swagger, though, since he was becoming rather robotic.

I was surprised they recast Ivy yet again.  I agree with the above comment that she acted like a robot.  I thought the last one brought some nice comic relief to the show, though I suppose it was hard to take the last one seriously as a villain.  This one is more obviously evil.

I'm not a fan of the Mind Riddler stuff.  I still like watching Ed and Lee working together.  

The Sirens commercial was so bad it was funny.