S02.E03: A Random Killing

[Steph619]

The death of the guy who was killed towards the end for his truck was really sad to me. The way he pleaded to not be killed by talking about wanting to see his family again was the worst because you already know a monster like Andrew Cunanan wouldn't have mercy on him either way. At that point, he was just killing people because he felt like it.

[helenamonster]

Agreed that everything about this episode was overwhelmingly sad. Lee, Marilyn, and poor William Reese. Quite possibly the only thing worse than being murdered so sadistically (they said that bag of cement broke every one of his ribs? Jesus Christ) is knowing as it's happening that however you're going to be found (probably by your wife) is going to be humiliating and all your dirty secrets are going to come out. And they mentioned several times how Lee wore a hearing aid; not having full capabilities of one of your senses can be so terrifying and make you so vulnerable. And then Marilyn, who seemed to know the score and was just trying to keep things as normal as possible to save her--and Lee's--reputation. And William Reese was just minding his own business, going about his work, and Cunanan shot him like a dog for a stupid truck. It's almost overwhelming in how nihilistic it is.

(Also per Wikipedia, Miglin's death was much more horrifying and graphic than portrayed.)

Between Versace and Miglin, they're keeping this pattern of Cunanan--who never worked for anything and demanded that the world be handed to him on a platter--killing these men who had worked hard, who were creators, who made names for themselves and were positive forces in the world. Neither Miglin nor Versace were in it for the glory, they were in it for the passion and the love of the work. Versace liked to make women feel beautiful, Miglin wanted his tower to inspire children to reach for their dreams...they were good people with good hearts. Cunanan wanted what they had but without any of the effort. Or the humility.

Judith Light is, as always, a revelation. And her Chicago accent was so good (my dad is from Evanston so that whole side of the family has the same Midwestern twang) I started wondering if she was an Illinois native, but apparently she's a Jersey girl!

On 1/31/2018 at 11:32 PM, TobinAlbers said:

Damn, whoever leaked that the FBI were tracking him via the car phone and whoever decided at that radio station to expose how the FBI were tracking Cunanan which led to his ditching the car and murdering an innocent man deserves a kick in the balls. 

I grew up outside Philadelphia and always thought of KYW as a reliable, reputable news station; my parents listened to it in the car all the time when I was growing up. I don't know who was in charge of them in 1997 (I was half a month shy of my third birthday when Versace was killed) but I was shocked to learn on this episode that they reported about the FBI tracking Cunanan through the car phone. A quick google shows that Orth's original version of Vulgar Favors claimed that the deputy police commissioner in Philadelphia at the time leaked the info to the media (she later retracted that part in the book when he threatened to sue) so just like...great job all around, home town.

[dubbel zout]

1 hour ago, helenamonster said:

Judith Light is, as always, a revelation. And her Chicago accent was so good (my dad is from Evanston so that whole side of the family has the same Midwestern twang) I started wondering if she was an Illinois native, but apparently she's a Jersey girl!

She spent a decent amount of time early on in her career at the Milwaukee Repertory Theater, so she was in the neighborhood.

[Blakeston]

16 hours ago, Nyc122 said:

Im curious how many people actually read the book this season is based off of or know much about the real life Andrew Cunanan. The thing is he was not subtle at all, and his "charm" is not what people here seem to think it was. People liked Andrew because he was "fun" and "exciting", however after a while he could also become annoying. He had many acquaintances but very few true friends. Usually when people got close to Andrew they realized how insecure and selfish he was.

But has the character of Cunanan on this show ever seemed fun at all? In just about every social interaction we've seen (like at the club with Versace, or bragging to his married blonde friend in the first episode, or telling the hotel employee that he needs to be near the ocean to sleep), he's been repulsive to the point that he's practically dripping with slime.

The one time he showed a side that could be seen as fun was when he was blasting "Gloria" while heading to Miami. I'm hoping we'll see more of that in the future. If we see him out at a club, showing that kind of enthusiasm, it would go a long way toward showing us why so many people found him to be fun.

16 hours ago, Chaos Theory said:

I don’t get as angry at men (or women) for making this choice.  My issue come when after sometimes decades of marriage and a change of public perspective of homosexuality that they leave the marriage. 

Are you saying that closeted gay people should stay in marriages that are based on lies?

[Sarah D. Bunting]

Quote

Sarah D. Bunting's recap includes a different version of Andrew's phone call to Lee. I wonder why they changed the broadcast version.

Me too! What was the broadcast version, do you remember?

[Chaos Theory]

2 hours ago, Blakeston said:

 

Are you saying that closeted gay people should stay in marriages that are based on lies?

I had a whole big thing to say but by  in the end it comes down “yes” I do think that.    What about the wife?  Does her feeling matter at all or we suddenly only concerned with a gay man living his truth who cares who he hurts in the process.  

Maybe it would be simpler if the men didn’t marry these women but they did and walking out on them after years of marriage isn’t courageous it’s cruel.

[SaveTheGreyhounds]

My brother went on a camping trip where they were supposed to visit a Civil War cemetery, but that part of the trip was canceled when the caretaker was killed. We later found out -- probably because of KYW -- that it was part of Cunanan's spree.

Also, it's probably a rights thing, but KYW doesn't sound anything like that.

[truthaboutluv]

11 hours ago, pigs-in-space said:

I didn't think they made her look like a bitch at all! In fact, I thought it was a very sympathetic portrayal. YMMV.

This. I thought she came across as a woman trying to hold it together after her best friend and the man she'd spent more than two decades with, had just been murdered. 

[MaggieG]

9 hours ago, helenamonster said:

Agreed that everything about this episode was overwhelmingly sad. Lee, Marilyn, and poor William Reese. Quite possibly the only thing worse than being murdered so sadistically (they said that bag of cement broke every one of his ribs? Jesus Christ) is knowing as it's happening that however you're going to be found (probably by your wife) is going to be humiliating and all your dirty secrets are going to come out. And they mentioned several times how Lee wore a hearing aid; not having full capabilities of one of your senses can be so terrifying and make you so vulnerable. And then Marilyn, who seemed to know the score and was just trying to keep things as normal as possible to save her--and Lee's--reputation. And William Reese was just minding his own business, going about his work, and Cunanan shot him like a dog for a stupid truck. It's almost overwhelming in how nihilistic it is.

This. I felt so bad for poor Lee, lying there, not seeing or barely hearing. And then William Reese. This episode was depressing as heck.

So was Duke Miglin really in Air Force One?

[Spike]

Marilyn Miglin was all about surface. She remarried and talked her husband into having multiple cosmetic surgeries the same day.  He died on the operating table.  Reminds me of Kanye West’s mother.  Duke Miglin did have a minor part in Air Force One.  I remember reports at the time that Lee had a membership at Steamworks, a gay bathhouse.  Maybe he met Andrew there. as some escorts use it rather than paying for a hotel room.  It would certainly support his interest in men.

[Eulipian 5k]

21 hours ago, Madding crowd said:

And I stand by my opinion that gay men shouldn't marry women who expect a loving and sexual marriage.

An earlier poster put this in context given the times. Would a gay architect without a wife & family be put in charge of major projects at that time? Did Lee know he was gay when he married her ~20 years ago? (The scene with the altar showed him believing the worst of his "gayness" and trying to resist it.)

Who's to say why people get married? Fifty percent of the people who married for all the "right and noble" reasons are just as divorced as those who married for all the wrong reasons.

Loved the way Judith acted with her lips to show her different states of mind.

[Madding crowd]

But you can’t deceive someone else to make your career. Plenty of “confirmed bachelors” had successful careers.

[Spike]

Judith Light did a great job on the Dallas reboot as well.

[CofCinci]

I wonder if covering up certain details of the murder by the Chicago PD to protect the family’s “good” name harmed the case and if they could have found Cunanan earlier. 

[dubbel zout]

8 minutes ago, CofCinci said:

I wonder if covering up certain details of the murder by the Chicago PD to protect the family’s “good” name harmed the case and if they could have found Cunanan earlier. 

I don't think details were covered up so much as not made public. The biggest mistake seemed to be the leak that allowed the news report on the CPD tracking Cunanan through the car phone. That's what led to William Reese being murdered and Cunanan stealing his truck. It seemed like the various police departments were on the alert before that.

[heatherchandler]

My claim to fame - my aunt is friends with Marilyn Miglin and she asked her to do my makeup many years ago (before the murder).  She did a nice job, but her makeup was not subtle at all and I looked like a clown but I do remember her being very nice and very upbeat.

I notice that some news reports say that they lived "right down the street from the gay clubs," but that is not true.  The well-known gay clubs are up north a bit, in boystown.  They lived near the "viagra triangle," and the clubs are not known as gay clubs.  Also, they lived (she still lives there?) on the gold coast - the nicest/most expensive area of the city.  

[jnymph]

Such a terrible and sad episode. 

Even though I (we) know Lee dies in the garage;  then tension leading up to the murder made my blood run cold.  I could barely stand it.  I fast forwarded thru the actual murder scene.  And I'm a pretty de-sensitized TV watcher.

It's beyond horrifying to think Lee Miglin died in such an awful manner.    No living soul deserves such torture.  : ( 

Agree with everyone that Judith Light was magnificent in this role.   And I believe Darren Criss put in a fine performance again; he's playing the creepy, disturbed and maniacal Cunanan quite well. 

[Tara Ariano]

In case you missed it, here's Previously.TV's EPIC OLD-SCHOO RECAP of the episode!

You Make It Seem So Real

Sarah D. Bunting's old-school recap would like to avoid 'hamming it up' wordplay here, but as American Crime Story investigates Lee Miglin's demise, it does make some melodramatic choices.

[TV Diva Queen]

Marilyn's second husband's wiki page is fascinating  His ex-wife was a powerhouse on the Republican side, her son is like besties with Obama.  wow, lots of power all around.  

[CeeBeeGee]

The CPD leaker and the news station that aired the leak about the carphone are directly responsible for the deaths of Reese and Versace.

Also it just occurred to me that my college roommate went to the Bishop's School around the same time as Cunanan.

[Spike]

http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2007-03-31/news/0703300516_1_bankruptcy-filing-cosmetics

[Florinaldo]

On 01/02/2018 at 12:34 AM, itsjustme said:

After meeting Andrew once why would anyone ever talk him again? 

From many accounts it looks as if he made a cost-effective use of his charm, as many such narcissists do; they turn it on when they need to get something from someone, adjusting the intensity as required, and turning it off when they get what they are seeking or when there is no point expending effort (as with Ronnie in the previous chapter; he can give AC nothing, except a little companionship, but somewhat paradoxically their scenes are those where AC is depicted to date in the series as apparently the most open and real, and perhaps even sincere as he nears the end of his life). And it is effective with many people.

In the third episode AC is still fresh from his first two kills as he informs LM before starting to torture him, so he still close to a more "mundane" version of AC. He also displays a few moments of personal emotion, as when he talks to LM about disgrace and mentions "settling into it"; or when he reproaches LM for not not putting his name on the bulding he is planning (which might be the final trigger for his murderous outburst) because this is totally something he would do, plastering his name everywhere if only he had the energy to work hard enough to accomplish something concrete. I also noted his little smile of pride when Lee tells him he is good at pretending their relationship is real; he is still capable of finding comfort in some accomplishment, however doubtful.

This episode felt like a transition step in the reverse chronology narrative and in the depiction of AC. We have already seen him at the end of his path, as a full-fledged killing monster. We are now getting nearer to his origins, in contrast with most portrayals of multiple murderers whom the viewer first sees as ordinary non-menacing people and then follows their path of degradation. Here we have already seen him at his worst, living in seedy hotels, having to find refuge in the cracks of society and wearing shabby sweaty clothes. As we get further back in time we should see the layers being wrapped back onto him and leading to what he was before he became his final incarnation as a savage killer, a more functional member of society. The questions regarding how this potential ("well-read, well-spoken" as he describes himself while tormenting LM) could have been wasted might become even more pointed, perhaps without ever finding a definite answer. It is as if they are adding back the layers AC peeled off as he progressively became a single purpose killing beast after he decided to shed those aspects of humanity (assuming he had a minimal amount of it, but I could be wrong about the whole thing).

Not that I expect him to exhibit much positive features; I don't really need those to find a character interesting anyway, or at least to get involved in their progression towards the abyss. It could also be very satisfying even if he utimately remains an enigma, a long as the path taken to get there is worth the trip. And if the script and the acting wisely continue to portray him as a clear sociopath, without trying to elicit any shred of unearned empathy from the viewer as they did in this episode.

Although JL did a good job as Marylin, I thought that MF was actually the star of the guest performers, offering a delicate and nuanced portrayal of a tortured man, whose doom was about to come. He hit all the right notes as a gay man from another time, when indeed many felt they had no choice but to enter into a sham marriage, sometimes with the tacit complicity of their wives, if they wanted to succeed in life and business. The next victim was also affectingly written and performed; perhaps even more so because AC transitioned to the glassy-eyed attitude we saw in the previous episodes as he pulled the trigger; no more need for his charm.

I think that one real potential problem with the narrative choice is that everything will make the most sense only retrospectively, which means it requires patience and work on the part of the viewer. How much of the initial audience will hang on until the end?

 

On 01/02/2018 at 12:34 AM, itsjustme said:

Anyone else laugh when Darren acted as if the cement bag was heavy?

I found it very credible. You should see the contorsions I go through when I have to lug around big bags of soil or ice melt salts out of the hardware store. ;-)

 

9 hours ago, Sarah D. Bunting said:

Me too! What was the broadcast version, do you remember?

LM and AC talked only briefly and MM did not interrupt them. Perhaps they tinkered a bit with the episodes after sending out screener versions, removing a snippet here to add another beat elsewhere in the episode. Or they realised it was a little too long.

[Spike]

http://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/chicagoinc/ct-ent-andrew-cunanan-lee-miglin-american-crime-story-20180131-story.html

[starri]

14 hours ago, Blakeston said:

But has the character of Cunanan on this show ever seemed fun at all? In just about every social interaction we've seen (like at the club with Versace, or bragging to his married blonde friend in the first episode, or telling the hotel employee that he needs to be near the ocean to sleep), he's been repulsive to the point that he's practically dripping with slime.

We know that because we're privy to who he actually is.  To someone just meeting him, I think he'd come across as a charming, entertaining guy.  If he wasn't, he wouldn't have lasted as a sex worker for so long.  He was good-looking, but not incredibly so, and didn't have a body as good as Darren Criss does, probably not even when he started out.  Whatever successes he had were sold on personality (or the facade of it) and charm.

I have every sympathy for Marilyn and Duke Miglin, and I respect their desire to protect Lee's image, but if a wealthy man is murdered by a male sex worker who targets wealthy closeted men...

I see Judith Light got to use Sarah Paulson's wig-wrangler for this episode.  They can also add Marilyn's wardrobe as another triumph of art direction.  She looked just like she'd stepped out of a mid-90s Republican Ladies' Auxiliary meeting.

[Florinaldo]

The walls of the NYC Versace store AC walks in are as white as those in the Miglin house and are almost as bare. Coincidence or an indication that the house was just for show, a display for what was intended to be perceived as a perfect marriage?

[starri]

3 minutes ago, Florinaldo said:

The walls of the NYC Versace store AC walks in are as white as those in the Miglin house and are almost as bare. Coincidence or an indication that the house was just for show, a display for what was intended to be perceived as a perfect marriage?

What surprised me more about the Miglin home was just how 80s it all looked.  So much white and brass and all the weird scallop shapes, like the mirror on Marilyn's vanity.  I don't know if there are crime scene photos to compare, and I certainly don't want to go digging for them, but for someone who convinced her second husband to have plastic surgery, it seems like Marilyn would have been been into the appearance of things enough to keep her house a little more current.

Although Patsy Ramsey made her house as tacky as hell, so money doesn't buy taste.

[itsjustme]

7 hours ago, Florinaldo said:

From many accounts it looks as if he made a cost-effective use of his charm, as many such narcissists do; they turn it on when they need to get something from someone, adjusting the intensity as required, and turning it off when they get what they are seeking or when there is no point expending effort (as with Ronnie in the previous chapter; he can give AC nothing, except a little companionship, but somewhat paradoxically their scenes are those where AC is depicted to date in the series as apparently the most open and real, and perhaps even sincere as he nears the end of his life). And it is effective with many people.

In the third episode AC is still fresh from his first two kills as he informs LM before starting to torture him, so he still close to a more "mundane" version of AC. He also displays a few moments of personal emotion, as when he talks to LM about disgrace and mentions "settling into it"; or when he reproaches LM for not not putting his name on the bulding he is planning (which might be the final trigger for his murderous outburst) because this is totally something he would do, plastering his name everywhere if only he had the energy to work hard enough to accomplish something concrete. I also noted his little smile of pride when Lee tells him he is good at pretending their relationship is real; he is still capable of finding comfort in some accomplishment, however doubtful.

This episode felt like a transition step in the reverse chronology narrative and in the depiction of AC. We have already seen him at the end of his path, as a full-fledged killing monster. We are now getting nearer to his origins, in contrast with most portrayals of multiple murderers whom the viewer first sees as ordinary non-menacing people and then follows their path of degradation. Here we have already seen him at his worst, living in seedy hotels, having to find refuge in the cracks of society and wearing shabby sweaty clothes. As we get further back in time we should see the layers being wrapped back onto him and leading to what he was before he became his final incarnation as a savage killer, a more functional member of society. The questions regarding how this potential ("well-read, well-spoken" as he describes himself while tormenting LM) could have been wasted might become even more pointed, perhaps without ever finding a definite answer. It is as if they are adding back the layers AC peeled off as he progressively became a single purpose killing beast after he decided to shed those aspects of humanity (assuming he had a minimal amount of it, but I could be wrong about the whole thing).

Not that I expect him to exhibit much positive features; I don't really need those to find a character interesting anyway, or at least to get involved in their progression towards the abyss. It could also be very satisfying even if he utimately remains an enigma, a long as the path taken to get there is worth the trip. And if the script and the acting wisely continue to portray him as a clear sociopath, without trying to elicit any shred of unearned empathy from the viewer as they did in this episode.

Although JL did a good job as Marylin, I thought that MF was actually the star of the guest performers, offering a delicate and nuanced portrayal of a tortured man, whose doom was about to come. He hit all the right notes as a gay man from another time, when indeed many felt they had no choice but to enter into a sham marriage, sometimes with the tacit complicity of their wives, if they wanted to succeed in life and business. The next victim was also affectingly written and performed; perhaps even more so because AC transitioned to the glassy-eyed attitude we saw in the previous episodes as he pulled the trigger; no more need for his charm.

I think that one real potential problem with the narrative choice is that everything will make the most sense only retrospectively, which means it requires patience and work on the part of the viewer. How much of the initial audience will hang on until the end?

 

I found it very credible. You should see the contorsions I go through when I have to lug around big bags of soil or ice melt salts out of the hardware store. ;-)

 

LM and AC talked only briefly and MM did not interrupt them. Perhaps they tinkered a bit with the episodes after sending out screener versions, removing a snippet here to add another beat elsewhere in the episode. Or they realised it was a little too long.

And as I said before he is not being portrayed as charming though so he just come off as smug.   For example episode 2 we see him first met and establish a new relationship when talking to the motel attendant and he was just smug and obviously full of crap.  IMO

Edited February 3, 2018 by itsjustme

[Florinaldo]

7 hours ago, itsjustme said:

And as I said before he is not being portrayed as charming though so he just come off as smug.

I certainly see the self-serving charm in the writing and the performance, alternating with moments of indifference, resentment, hostility, dismissivenes, and certainly smugness or condescension, at various times according to circumstances.

Edited February 3, 2018 by Florinaldo

[starri]

5 minutes ago, icemiser69 said:

I hope this doesn't continue with a murder every week type scenario.  I can't handle that. 

Cunanan only has two more victims and we have five episodes left.

[Florinaldo]

6 hours ago, icemiser69 said:

Didn't Cunanan let one dude live last week?  The guy that he gave money to?

Considering what AC was planning to do there was no point and nothing to gain (like an escape truck) in killing him. He had a much bigger fish to catch, which would bring him real fame by his twisted reasoning.

6 hours ago, starri said:

Cunanan only has two more victims and we have five episodes left.

Yes, after those two we still have to cover AC's and GV's years before the murder spree, so it should amount to more than a "murder of the week" story.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Florinaldo

[rwgrab]

On 2/1/2018 at 11:46 AM, Chaos Theory said:

I think it might be a mistake watching the progression backwards instead of forward.  We see a madman who has already lost any pretense and the audience wonders how anyone fell for it while the truth is for a long time the guy was exceptionally smart, well read and charming but also a snob, conceitful and lazy.   Smart and beautiful enough to accomplish anything but too lazy to go about it and he resented the fact that everyone didn’t give him what he wanted.

 

He was also a pathological liar. 

Yeah, I agree it's tough to be watching the main plot points backwards, but the first episode did spend a lot of time establishing that Andrew had a group of people who enjoyed his company before he left California.  That couple he was staying with found him, at the very least, entertaining even if they weren't buying everything he was selling.  And he kind of wormed his way into that initial conversation with Versace at the club which led to a nice evening at the opera later.

I'm just saying I think the show has established the difference between "in control Andrew" and "unhinged Andrew" across the series so far.  I thought one of the most interesting parts of the portrayal in this episode was the contrast between how we've seen him with others and how we see him with Lee.  He's like 90% confrontational with Lee which is a different act from what we've seen him do in the other episodes.  Maybe it would work better as a binge watch because it's easy to get sucked into this one particular side of Andrew like we saw this week while forgetting all the stuff that comes before/after.

[txhorns79]

Quote

Judith Light did a great job on the Dallas reboot as well.

I always felt badly for her in that role.  She was cast as Mitch Pileggi's mother, even though she's a grand total of three years older than him. 

Quote

What surprised me more about the Miglin home was just how 80s it all looked.  So much white and brass and all the weird scallop shapes, like the mirror on Marilyn's vanity.  I don't know if there are crime scene photos to compare, and I certainly don't want to go digging for them, but for someone who convinced her second husband to have plastic surgery, it seems like Marilyn would have been been into the appearance of things enough to keep her house a little more current.

I was surprised by how dated the place looked (meaning that I agree the place looked like something out of the 80s, even though it was 1997). 

[Spike]

Sometimes older people cling to a decor that was fashionable when they were younger.  As seniors die off now, you can find tons of 60s and 70s stuff in “Antique” and resale shops.

[tennisgurl]

Put me in the camp of people who think Darren Criss is doing a great job. To me, Andrew Cunanan was the kind of person who had a very superficial charm when he first met people, and was smart enough to know how to play to his audience, and could read people very well. But, when he was around people for a bit longer, the charm started to fall, and people realized that, at best, he was a narcissistic asshole, and at worst, he was a dead inside monster. I thought Criss was especially chilling this week, happily telling poor Lee Miglin about he would horribly kill him and set him up to be humiliated after death, and emotionless killing William Reese for no real reason. This is a guy who just does not care about other people. At all. He didn't have to kill Lee Miglin or William Reese, but he wanted to kill Lee Miglin because, as others have said, he HATES people who have become successful and resents the hell out of them, and he killed William Reese because...why not?

[Spike]

We don’t know what was said between Reese and AC, but if it was close to what was depicted maybe Reese mentioning his wife and kids backfired because AC was envious that he didn’t have similar close familial connections.

[Blakeston]

On 2/2/2018 at 9:24 PM, starri said:

We know that because we're privy to who he actually is.  To someone just meeting him, I think he'd come across as a charming, entertaining guy.  If he wasn't, he wouldn't have lasted as a sex worker for so long.  He was good-looking, but not incredibly so, and didn't have a body as good as Darren Criss does, probably not even when he started out.  Whatever successes he had were sold on personality (or the facade of it) and charm.

If the famous picture of him with his shirt open (with writing scrawled on his chest) is any indication, he was in very good shape at one point. He probably got a bit doughy as time went on - lord knows there are plenty of guys in their early twenties with great bodies who have a gut just a few years later.

 

22 hours ago, rwgrab said:

Yeah, I agree it's tough to be watching the main plot points backwards, but the first episode did spend a lot of time establishing that Andrew had a group of people who enjoyed his company before he left California.  That couple he was staying with found him, at the very least, entertaining even if they weren't buying everything he was selling.  And he kind of wormed his way into that initial conversation with Versace at the club which led to a nice evening at the opera later.

I don't think going to the opera had anything to do with his conversation with Versace at the club. The interaction between Cunanan and Versace at the opera seemed to be a dream sequence. He told his friends that he was invited to the opera by Versace, but I don't think we were meant to believe that Versace actually invited him.

I would certainly hope that Versace wouldn't be charmed by the gross, phony way Cunanan butted into his conversation at the club, to the point that he'd invite him to an opera.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Blakeston

[Blakeston]

Sorry, double post.

Edited February 4, 2018 by Blakeston

[rwgrab]

2 hours ago, Blakeston said:

I don't think gong to the opera had anything to do with his conversation with Versace at the club. The interaction between Cunanan and Versace at the opera seemed to be a dream sequence. He told his friends that he was invited to the opera by Versace, but I don't think we were meant to believe that Versace actually invited him.

I would certainly hope that Versace wouldn't be charmed by the gross, phony way Cunanan butted into his conversation at the club, to the point that he'd invite him to an opera.

Yeah, that's definitely possible about the opera sequence.  But I think the way the scene at the club was presented we did see Versace dismiss Andrew at first and then, persuaded by Andrew's stories, continue the conversation.  Same deal with the hotel clerk in Miami Beach: we as viewers may see what he's doing as fake because we see him manufacturing it, but if you'd just met this guy, one could see how folks might be sucked in by his charm. 

At least that's the way it's coming across to me based on the reactions that other characters are having to Andrew.  In this episode, we saw Lee seem to open up to Andrew about the plans for his dream building, etc.  right before Andrew started being confrontational.  I don't know that Lee would have done that had Andrew not at least started out with some sort of kindness/warmth before that.

[helenamonster]

18 hours ago, Spike said:

Sometimes older people cling to a decor that was fashionable when they were younger.  As seniors die off now, you can find tons of 60s and 70s stuff in “Antique” and resale shops.

That's what I was thinking. I grew up in the '90s/'00s but my house was very '70s...the bathroom especially will need to be completely renovated if my dad ever wants to sell the place, it is butt ugly and so dated.

Similarly, my grandparents bought their house in 1950 and when my nana sold it in 2008, it still had carpeting in every single room, including the kitchen and both bathrooms.

[WearyTraveler]

On 2/1/2018 at 7:46 PM, Chaos Theory said:

I think it might be a mistake watching the progression backwards instead of forward.  We see a madman who has already lost any pretense and the audience wonders how anyone fell for it while the truth is for a long time the guy was exceptionally smart, well read and charming but also a snob, conceitful and lazy.   Smart and beautiful enough to accomplish anything but too lazy to go about it and he resented the fact that everyone didn’t give him what he wanted.

 

He was also a pathological liar. 

I don't think it's the format.  I think it's the writing and directing choices.

So far, we have only seen one side of Cunanan (the psycho unravelling), so, we wonder why anyone would even talk to the guy in the first place.  But the thing is, even an unravelling psycho continues to turn on the charm every once in a while.  Perhaps the creators' intent is to "surprise" us at the end when they reveal what a great manipulator AC was and that's why the writing and directing purposefully hasn't included any explicit portrayals of charming Andrew. If so, I think that's a mistake.

As I said, even the worst psychos have self preservation instincts and if they have relied on their charms in the past, it will come naturally to them to do so, even in the most dire situations.  While I see their intent of showing Cunanan as a completely unraveled killer at the beginning to perhaps a more charming beginning, I think the show would have benefited from having a couple of scenes showing us Andrew being his charming self, so that the audience could see a glimpse of the man and understand how it could be possible for him to insert himself in the lives of his victims.  So far, he only comes off as an arrogant prick.  Specially if someone were to believe his lies about things like his lobster lunches at school.  The way he told that story was arrogant and entitled.  And if that was not how the scene was supposed to come across, then the director should have directed the actor to make different performing choices.  At this point, the portrayal seems one dimensional, and perhaps that is what is making some people question the histrionic abilities of Daniel Criss.

I think there were at least 3 missed opportunities to show us Andrew charming someone:

1) The scene where he talked to Versace in the club.  He came across as annoying, trying to butt in, not as someone GV would listen to.  GV knew what people knew about his personal life from interviews.  He knew that any dedicated fan would know where he was born, how big his family was, etc.  So, for AC to actually grab GV's attention, the tone of the supposed memory of his mother talking about the old country, etc. would have to be different than portrayed on the show.  If GV is going to take an interest, it wouldn't be because someone claims to be from the same region in Italy.  It would be because the person appeared sincere about that claim, and the actor's choices indicated to me that it was all a lie.

2) The interactions with the hotel front desk clerk.  Sometimes it almost feels like the intention of the scene is to show how Andrew got chummy with her, picked on some of the things she was saying and manipulated her into giving him a better room/deal.  But there wasn't enough charm there.  It should have come across as the clerk and Andrew being pals, with her being charmed by him, and him being more gossipy-supportive of her complaints.  Like two best friends gossiping.  Because that's not how it came across, then I'd have to guess the directors/creators wanted it that way.  The dialog wasn't helping either.

3) The interactions with the ex gay escort at the hotel.  Again, the guy is supposed to like Andrew, but most of the time it feels as if he was afraid of /guarded from Andrew.  It would have helped if we had seen Andrew being charming to him and acting friendly when he gave the other guy drugs/money.  We're supposed to infer from context that he did so, giving the last conversation those two had, but we never saw it.  This again, falls under the script and directing choices.

I'm willing to give the actor the benefit of the doubt here (never saw him in anything else, so I have nothing to compare).

[TV Diva Queen]

On 2/2/2018 at 8:24 PM, starri said:

We know that because we're privy to who he actually is.  To someone just meeting him, I think he'd come across as a charming, entertaining guy.  If he wasn't, he wouldn't have lasted as a sex worker for so long.  He was good-looking, but not incredibly so, and didn't have a body as good as Darren Criss does, probably not even when he started out.  Whatever successes he had were sold on personality (or the facade of it) and charm.

I have every sympathy for Marilyn and Duke Miglin, and I respect their desire to protect Lee's image, but if a wealthy man is murdered by a male sex worker who targets wealthy closeted men...

I see Judith Light got to use Sarah Paulson's wig-wrangler for this episode.  They can also add Marilyn's wardrobe as another triumph of art direction.  She looked just like she'd stepped out of a mid-90s Republican Ladies' Auxiliary meeting.

OMG! - I'm the poster that worked for the Governor who's fundraiser the Miglin's were at.  I actually said out loud to myself...."she better have a St. John's suit on" LOL.  That's ALL the "ladies who lunch" wore.  UGH.  Even then they were a bit much, I can't stand that look.  then and now.   

[WearyTraveler]

4 hours ago, WearyTraveler said:

I don't think it's the format.  I think it's the writing and directing choices.

So far, we have only seen one side of Cunanan (the psycho unravelling), so, we wonder why anyone would even talk to the guy in the first place.  But the thing is, even an unravelling psycho continues to turn on the charm every once in a while.  Perhaps the creators' intent is to "surprise" us at the end when they reveal what a great manipulator AC was and that's why the writing and directing purposefully hasn't included any explicit portrayals of charming Andrew. If so, I think that's a mistake.

As I said, even the worst psychos have self preservation instincts and if they have relied on their charms in the past, it will come naturally to them to do so, even in the most dire situations.  While I see their intent of showing Cunanan as a completely unraveled killer at the beginning to perhaps a more charming beginning, I think the show would have benefited from having a couple of scenes showing us Andrew being his charming self, so that the audience could see a glimpse of the man and understand how it could be possible for him to insert himself in the lives of his victims.  So far, he only comes off as an arrogant prick.  Specially if someone were to believe his lies about things like his lobster lunches at school.  The way he told that story was arrogant and entitled.  And if that was not how the scene was supposed to come across, then the director should have directed the actor to make different performing choices.  At this point, the portrayal seems one dimensional, and perhaps that is what is making some people question the histrionic abilities of Daniel Criss.

I think there were at least 3 missed opportunities to show us Andrew charming someone:

1) The scene where he talked to Versace in the club.  He came across as annoying, trying to butt in, not as someone GV would listen to.  GV knew what people knew about his personal life from interviews.  He knew that any dedicated fan would know where he was born, how big his family was, etc.  So, for AC to actually grab GV's attention, the tone of the supposed memory of his mother talking about the old country, etc. would have to be different than portrayed on the show.  If GV is going to take an interest, it wouldn't be because someone claims to be from the same region in Italy.  It would be because the person appeared sincere about that claim, and the actor's choices indicated to me that it was all a lie.

2) The interactions with the hotel front desk clerk.  Sometimes it almost feels like the intention of the scene is to show how Andrew got chummy with her, picked on some of the things she was saying and manipulated her into giving him a better room/deal.  But there wasn't enough charm there.  It should have come across as the clerk and Andrew being pals, with her being charmed by him, and him being more gossipy-supportive of her complaints.  Like two best friends gossiping.  Because that's not how it came across, then I'd have to guess the directors/creators wanted it that way.  The dialog wasn't helping either.

3) The interactions with the ex gay escort at the hotel.  Again, the guy is supposed to like Andrew, but most of the time it feels as if he was afraid of /guarded from Andrew.  It would have helped if we had seen Andrew being charming to him and acting friendly when he gave the other guy drugs/money.  We're supposed to infer from context that he did so, giving the last conversation those two had, but we never saw it.  This again, falls under the script and directing choices.

I'm willing to give the actor the benefit of the doubt here (never saw him in anything else, so I have nothing to compare).

To extend on this a little, in the very first episode, Andrew's friend tells him that he doesn't know who Andrew is, because Andrew says he's straight to straight people, gay to gay people, etc.  We were meant to take away form that that Andrew was some sort of chameleon that would take on different personas depending on who he was with.

The problem is that we have not been shown this, so far.  Andrew has been his same arrogant, entitled, envious, pissy self for all three episodes and that may not be the actor's fault.

[sinkwriter]

Listening to the recap right now, and already I have to pause to send Sarah D. Bunting kudos for using an impressive word I've not heard before: ziggurat. If I knew that from school, I've apparently long forgotten it. So I had to look it up. *GRIN*  I like that. Thanks, Sarah!

[Primetimer]

Sarah D. Bunting's old-school recap would like to avoid 'hamming it up' wordplay here, but as American Crime Story investigates Lee Miglin's demise, it does make some melodramatic choices.

View the full article

[candle96]

On 2/1/2018 at 12:25 PM, truthaboutluv said:

Here's the thing though, was it ever a fact that Cuananan was charming? I see this referenced a lot and I wonder if it's one of those things that's been said so much throughout the years when people discuss the case, that it's been taken as fact. We know he was a pathological liar from school, classmates from college said he told outrageous stories, indicating they knew he was lying, then he was basically a hooker to rich gay men, then murdered two people close to him that later spiraled into murdering Lee Miglin, the random guy whose truck he wanted and then Versace. Yes, it's been reported that he was very smart, testing at genius IQ level and that he could change his appearance almost seamlessly. But I honestly don't remember ever reading that Andrew was this super charming guy that fooled so many people. YMMV.

I heard an interview with Darren Criss where he said AC was voted "most likely to succeed" in his high school class. So, at some point in his life, he charmed at least some people.

[truthaboutluv]

9 minutes ago, candle96 said:

I heard an interview with Darren Criss where he said AC was voted "most likely to succeed" in his high school class. So, at some point in his life, he charmed at least some people.

Yes, that was well reported in the news after his murder of Versace. But keep in mind that Cuananan also tested at a genius IQ level and spoke like seven languages and was reported to be very smart and bright in school. So in my opinion, I don't think his being voted most likely to succeed by classmates was necessarily proof of his overwhelming ability to charm. It may have just been because they knew he was bright and assumed he'd do something with his life. They had no idea that he had no desire to work hard for anything and ended up killing people. 

[kassa]

It will be interesting if the final episode (or penultimate) does a "rewind" and shows us the events of the days surrounding the Versace murder as they REALLY (probably) unfolded, and not how AC (might have) perceived them.  For example, wearytraveller pointed out 3 scenes that seemed disjointed: the meeting Versace at the club scene, the hotel clerk scene, and the fellow hustler scene.  I really can't account for how the third guy fits into this story, but the first two scenes showed a completely awkward, clumsy, lame schmoozing attempt on AC's part - you wanted to cringe for how he must appear to Versace and the desk clerk, neither of whom were the least bit impressed with him.  Versace acknowledges his presence then pointedly turns away - MULTIPLE TIMES.  You're waiting for a club goon to step up and manhandle AC out of there Then, all of a sudden, Versace is sending people away to sit one on one with him.  The desk clerk is stopping short (barely) of rolling her eyes at this yuppie loser who is obviously trying to pull something on her -- she cuts him off and tells him all she wants is her $29 bucks for the room. But all of a sudden they have some kind of connection.

I'll go out on a limb and bet this is a director decision and that the beginnings of the scenes are what really happened, and the endings are the spins that AC put on them in his own mind.  And perhaps we will see a replay of the Versace club scene it will unfold very differently.  The guy he knew in the club was cringing as he kept cutting in on Versace -- perhaps he will give a statement to the police that tells what really happened?

[Florinaldo]

1 hour ago, kassa said:

It will be interesting if the final episode (or penultimate) does a "rewind" and shows us the events of the days surrounding the Versace murder as they REALLY (probably) unfolded, and not how AC (might have) perceived them.

In which case we might get confirmation that the opera scene was either greatly embellished or totally invented by AC. Anyone who has been backstage after an opera performance knows that there is no way they would have had the place all to themselves. Especially after opening night and with a world-famous fashion designer present.

[SimonSeymour]

On 2/8/2018 at 10:18 AM, candle96 said:

I heard an interview with Darren Criss where he said AC was voted "most likely to succeed" in his high school class. So, at some point in his life, he charmed at least some people.

I recently bought and then read the book the series is based on because I NEEDED information faster than the show is able to tell  it. 

Anyway, the quote from the yearbook was “most likely to be remembered.” Kind of different than “most likely to succeed.”

[TheGourmez]

18 hours ago, SimonSeymour said:

Anyway, the quote from the yearbook was “most likely to be remembered.” Kind of different than “most likely to succeed.”

And, of course, that's why it was the penultimate sentence of Episode 2. I admire how the dialogue ties in to events we may not yet know, kind of a backward foreshadowing with this timeline. For example,

Spoiler

Andrew telling Miglin he could have been a good partner is echoed in Episode 4, with Andrew telling David what they could have been, if David had only played along.

Edited February 12, 2018 by TheGourmez