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S02.E03: Lisbon


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Yay!!! Tommy came back!

I think both Foy and Smith are knocking it out the park this season. I can feel the vibrations going through Elizabeth I every scene. I wasn’t thrilled at the idea of more Phillip, but so far I think it’s added a lot to the story they are telling. On to episode four!

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59 minutes ago, Maire said:

The scene of the investiture was perfect. lol of the blank faces in silence. Did the Queen ask her secretary to shave his mustache? What happened there? 

Yes, I think the Queen did ask him to shave. I thought that it was because Philip had earlier called all the castle/royalty minders, “Moustaches” as a term to denote how stuffy and old-fashioned that they were, and so the Queen, in her continuing efforts to make Philip more comfortable, asked her own secretary to shave as a subtle symbol that her closest bureaucrat was willing to modernize.

I obviously have no idea what the real Prince Philip is like, but Matt Smith and the writer sure make good work of presenting Philip as an utterly contemptible jackass. I know that they have alluded to Philip’s sad childhood as a potential motivator, but the way he treats the Queen is horrid.  He didn’t even apologize to her for the publicity mess, just promptly continued to complain right where he left off.  As written, he is so resentful of his wife’s position and trappings that it makes him actually hate her.  Good moment when he fired Mike, though.

When the Queen was talking to Macmillan and said that “One has to accept one’s own part in any mess,” I guess that she was referring to her marriage (as she the went off to see Mrs. Parker), and I felt bad for her that she apparently feels at fault in her marriage.

Super happy that Mrs. Parker didn’t get bullied into staying with her piece of crap husband, even if I thought that her bitterness towards the Queen was misplaced:  her husband was a slimeball no matter what job he would have taken.  The conversation between the Queen and Eileen didn’t really ring true to me overall:  even in this fantasy world, I cannot imagine the Queen ever going to visit Eileen at her house and talk so openly about the adultry.

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23 hours ago, Helena Dax said:

What Mike said about Elizabeth and Charles was cold. And tbh, I don't think that's true. I mean, I don't know what kind of relationship Charles and Elizabeth have or had in the past, but I doubt she sees her own death when she looks at him.

That scene horrified me because I kept wondering if the British royal family watches this show and how that line would make them feel.  If I had to bet I'd wager that the Queen does not watch, but Charles does.  Poor him.

The scene where Philip goes into the plane and sees Elizabeth for the first time in 5 months . . . damn.  That was one COLD reception.  I had to laugh.

So . . . now that Philip is a prince of the realm as well as the consort of the Queen, does he outrank Charles?  According to Wikipedia, "By (the Queen's) Order-in-Council, the Duke of Edinburgh has "place, pre-eminence and precedence" over all men in the United Kingdom—except, where provided by Parliament, Charles, Prince of Wales."  So I guess that means there are a few state occasions where Charles, as heir to the throne, has precedence over his father but on all other state occasions Phillip has the same level of precedence that a Queen (spouse of the monarch) would have.

Edited by WatchrTina
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On 12/8/2017 at 8:44 PM, Helena Dax said:

What Mike said about Elizabeth and Charles was cold. And tbh, I don't think that's true. I mean, I don't know what kind of relationship Charles and Elizabeth have or had in the past, but I doubt she sees her own death when she looks at him.

Being a huge researcher of royals the world over, thanks to Queen Victoria, I can attest that the feeling between the monarch and his/her heir more often than not exactly that way.  One thing Diana did was break the cycle of the cold monarchy.  It really shows in the relationships Charles has with this sons.  Just look up all the monarchs right back up the line and it always shows that the heir is always thought less of.  We can start with King Edward VIII, King George V, King Edward VII.......................

2 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

That scene horrified me because I kept wondering if the British royal family watches this show and how that line would make them feel.  If I had to bet I'd wager that the Queen does not watch, but Charles does.

It is reported that the royal family enjoy the show.  Here is an article about it.  None of what is shown is any new details anyway.

Prince Charles has always maintained that he was closest to his grandmother the Queen Mother than his parents.  He specifically raised his own sons differently than he was raised because of this.  His father did bully him and called him soft and his mother was distant.  His mother was following the usual royal protocol where the royal children are left for long periods of time and often only see their parents for a few minutes each day.

10 hours ago, Peace 47 said:

I obviously have no idea what the real Prince Philip is like,

You have really missed some great moments!  He is known the world over for his crazy talk.  Enjoy here.

10 hours ago, Peace 47 said:

When the Queen was talking to Macmillan and said that “One has to accept one’s own part in any mess,” I guess that she was referring to her marriage (as she the went off to see Mrs. Parker), and I felt bad for her that she apparently feels at fault in her marriage.

See quote below.

13 hours ago, ElectricBoogaloo said:

High five to Elizabeth for straight up telling MacMillan that he couldn't blame all of England's current troubles on Eden.

I really enjoyed that too.

I guess I am shocked that hardly anyone is familiar with the lives of the Windsors.

I watch and all the while am talking back to the TV.

When Eden was back from his "rest trip" and he was pretty much told to go (censured) and he was arguing with MacMillan and told MacMillan that it was he that told him to formulate the plan and lie to whoever.  I was saying back to the screen, "And that's why you have to go.  You were in charge and you blew it".

The whole thing between Philip and Mike was so spot on.  Mike was given a plum assignment and his only requirement was that he keep his mouth shut.  He blew it, big time and had to go.  Don't worry it is also rumored that the Queen herself has had dalliances but later on.  The common rule for the aristocracy is that once you have an heir and a spare you can live separate lives but one must be highly discreet.

Loved when Philip went over to talk to Mike who looked like a misplaced husband and when Mike wasn't so keen on sympathizing with Philip he called him sir.  OOh that was good!

2 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

That scene horrified me because I kept wondering if the British royal family watches this show and how that line would make them feel.  If I had to bet I'd wager that the Queen does not watch, but Charles does.  Poor him.

It is reported that the royal family enjoy the show.  Here is an article about it.  None of what is shown is any new details anyway.

Edited by jumper sage
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On 12/8/2017 at 7:44 PM, Helena Dax said:

What Mike said about Elizabeth and Charles was cold. And tbh, I don't think that's true. I mean, I don't know what kind of relationship Charles and Elizabeth have or had in the past, but I doubt she sees her own death when she looks at him. If they had their third child with ulterior motives, I guess it was to show that their marriage was working perfectly fine, thank you. 

I don't think that the motive to have the third child wasn't show the world but Elizabeth had missed most of Charles and Anne's childhood: irl they weren't in Malta and then she became the Queen and had to travel abroad and read papers.

One must remember that this was Mike's opinion and in the show he had been able to observe Elizabeth with her children only in Malta, not afterwards (or at least we have seen him only with Philip). Philip doesn't agree with Mike or at least he defends his wife by saying: she tries her best.    

18 hours ago, jumper sage said:

Prince Charles has always maintained that he was closest to his grandmother the Queen Mother than his parents.  He specifically raised his own sons differently than he was raised because of this.  His father did bully him and called him soft and his mother was distant.  His mother was following the usual royal protocol where the royal children are left for long periods of time and often only see their parents for a few minutes each day.

The show follows mostly Charles's interpretration. Already in S1 the Queen Mother criticizes Philip to Elizabeth for being treating Charles too harsly and Elizabeth looks afar when Charles and Anne are playing with servants but also with Philip (as he did irl). "A few minutes" was much more irl.

All women aren't motherly by nature and then it's easy to flee to work as many men did. Elizabeth's character was so dutiful that she probably read all papers, instead of concentrating only on the most important matters. 

But we must also remember that the time was another and also Elizabeth's position was different and much more demanding than that of Charles and Diana, or William and Kate.  

Mike seems to be universally condemned for being such an awful husband and father. I of course agree.

But it tells much about the values of the time that so long he was formally married although he behaved quite immorally, he was accepted by the court. Only when his wife sued him for divorce and the press made big headlines, that was the ultimate sin for which he had to resign although it had nothing to do with his job.

In short, it didn't matter how you behaved, only how it was seen in public. 

Parker's resignation itself was a good thing as his influence to Philip was bad. But the Court hurt Philip's integrity and pride by ordering him to do it, not to speak of the orders how he should meet Elizabeth in Lisbon. On the other hand, he should have understood those matters himself.     

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Quote

Yea another episode of Philip whining. I don't know why Elizabeth puts up with him. Never ending whining. I did like that was the first thing she brought up in their talk later. 

It's a difficult situation.  I think Philip has behaved terribly, but I can understand feeling lost when you, at best, have an undefined, entirely subservient role to your spouse.  I think even in the strongest of marriages, it would be very difficult to make that work.  That doesn't mean that Philip's actions are justified, only that I see why he acts the way he does.    

Quote

Here is an article about it. 

There's something that makes me smile about the idea of the Queen having a Netflix account.  Though I'd like to think she's simply appalled by there being a Full House update in which Michelle refused to participate.     

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26 minutes ago, txhorns79 said:
Quote

 

It's a difficult situation.  I think Philip has behaved terribly, but I can understand feeling lost when you, at best, have an undefined, entirely subservient role to your spouse.  I think even in the strongest of marriages, it would be very difficult to make that work.  That doesn't mean that Philip's actions are justified, only that I see why he acts the way he does.    

Quote

Yes, it was hard for him not to feel emasculated. That probably fueled his fire for other women that he could dominate and who would look up to him. 

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6 minutes ago, MissLucas said:

A lot of criticism of Philip is based on modern perspectives on gender roles. He should have accepted his part without whining etc.etc.etc. - lots of things that for a man of his generation must have been hard to swallow. Let's not forget that even Saint Albert was struggling with his role. And while Philip knew that he was marrying the future Queen of England the general expectation was that the two of them would have more than just a couple of years of relative normalcy ahead. Philip was about to embark on a brilliant career in the Royal Navy when the king died. That an alpha-male like Philip would struggle with such an abrupt end to his aspirations and with his new role of playing second fiddle seems pretty natural to me.

Agreed. And Albert at least got the satisfaction of giving his children his name, including the heir to the throne. Victoria of Hanover became Victoria of Saxe Coburg Gotha after she married him.

 

It was a long while before Mountbatten was instated into the House of Windsor and even then it was more of a choice for Philip and Elizabeth’s children who weren’t Charles.

 

Philip did behave badly and inexcusably at times, but his expectations and disappointments were completely fair for its day. 

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2 hours ago, MissLucas said:

A lot of criticism of Philip is based on modern perspectives on gender roles. He should have accepted his part without whining etc.etc.etc. - lots of things that for a man of his generation must have been hard to swallow. Let's not forget that even Saint Albert was struggling with his role. And while Philip knew that he was marrying the future Queen of England the general expectation was that the two of them would have more than just a couple of years of relative normalcy ahead. Philip was about to embark on a brilliant career in the Royal Navy when the king died. That an alpha-male like Philip would struggle with such an abrupt end to his aspirations and with his new role of playing second fiddle seems pretty natural to me.

Isn't whining a modern habit?

On the other hand, if Philip hadn't made his thoughts and feelings known, nothing could have changed. On the other hand, he would have succeeded sooner with a more constructive method; if one contantly whines or nags, the other party usually ceases to listen. 

Although Philip un doubtly is an alpha male, it wasn't before all against his wife he rebelled, but against the traditionalists in the Court who ordered what the Queen should do.

Parts 1-3 whose private plot tells about Philip's journey and the couple's separation for five months form an unit inside S2.

Unlike we would assume on the basis of the end of S1, the couple's relationship before the journey is quite good, also sexually. Then the unhappy chance intervenes: Elizabeth finds a photo of a ballerina in Philip's portofolio. She suspect that she is his mistress and, instead of asking for an explanation, gives him a cold farewell.

Rescuing a seaman makes Philip ponder the imortance if family and his broadcast Christmas greeting is answered in kind by Elizabeth. The positive circle continues when his film about Antarktis makes her promise him a warm welcome. Again the unhappy chance - Mike Parker's letter to Thursday club - makes Elizabeth to suspect that he has been constantly unfaithful during his journey. She is publicly humilated by the press whereas Philip is angered by the Court's order how to behave in Lisbon in order to show that their marriage is okay.

The result is a ice cold meeting, but after that Elizabeth at last talks with him and although not revealing the reason for her coldness, asks for his terms. Finally, his formal position is secured.

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1 hour ago, MissLucas said:

A lot of criticism of Philip is based on modern perspectives on gender roles. He should have accepted his part without whining etc.etc.etc. - lots of things that for a man of his generation must have been hard to swallow. Let's not forget that even Saint Albert was struggling with his role. And while Philip knew that he was marrying the future Queen of England the general expectation was that the two of them would have more than just a couple of years of relative normalcy ahead. Philip was about to embark on a brilliant career in the Royal Navy when the king died. That an alpha-male like Philip would struggle with such an abrupt end to his aspirations and with his new role of playing second fiddle seems pretty natural to me.

This is why Elizabeth would probably ha e been better off marrying her old friend from season 1. He had other interests (his stables and land) which it would have been acceptable for him to continue with after marriage. Whereas with Philip, his life centered around the navy and it would have been  impossible for him to return to active duty after Elizabeth became Queen. 

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I felt bad for the guy having to try and tell his queen about the possible infidelity of her husband. That would be really hard to do not to mention awkward. I liked that he did it badly. I'm impressed that he didn't pass the buck to Tommy to do it.

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4 hours ago, PRgal said:

I notice that Eileen is mostly seen in pants - not that typical back in those days for women of her background.  I feel like it's supposed to mean something.  Anyone else think so?

I noticed that too, and they haven't put any of the other women in trousers so it really stands out. Maybe because she chose to wear the trousers in the family by divorcing Secretary Dudebro? Eh, I got nothin'. 

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4 hours ago, PRgal said:

I notice that Eileen is mostly seen in pants - not that typical back in those days for women of her background.  I feel like it's supposed to mean something.  Anyone else think so?

I think it was meant to signify her independence. Katherine Hepburn was photographed in pants a lot, it was a symbol of “power”. From what I gathered though Eileen wasn’t an aristocrat by any means- she was a woman of some means because her husband was in service to the crown and had a career in the navy, but I didn’t see servants at her daughter’s bday party for example. A woman of that station may have work trousers around regularly her home but not out to social gatherings. 

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On 12/9/2017 at 7:23 PM, Atlanta said:

Philip is such a whiny baby. You knew you were marrying the future queen.

He gets on my nerves with his sullen attitude. I do, however, think he didn't expect this life so early in their marriage. Nor did Elizabeth but she certainly is handling it better. 

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5 hours ago, MissLucas said:

A lot of criticism of Philip is based on modern perspectives on gender roles. He should have accepted his part without whining etc.etc.etc. - lots of things that for a man of his generation must have been hard to swallow. Let's not forget that even Saint Albert was struggling with his role. And while Philip knew that he was marrying the future Queen of England the general expectation was that the two of them would have more than just a couple of years of relative normalcy ahead. Philip was about to embark on a brilliant career in the Royal Navy when the king died. That an alpha-male like Philip would struggle with such an abrupt end to his aspirations and with his new role of playing second fiddle seems pretty natural to me.

And really, would anyone - male, female, or otherwise - be all, "Well, the job's the job!" if they were forced to halt their embarking on a brilliant career in (whatever their field is) because their spouse was crowned (or whatever non-royal family obligation might come up) years before it was expected to happen. They're portraying Philip as a whiny ass (and if the real Philip weren't actually a whiny ass, I think that this portrayal is bad writing), and QE's general attitude of "Look, I get that this isn't what we expected but you can at any time please at least pretend to accept this so we can move on together" is also totally fair, given his whiny asseousness. I'd like to think that I could be more gracious in this situation but the reality is that I'd probably be a whiny ass too.

I'm also really not digging their choosing to do the mystery mistress(es) bit. Given that there were only rumors (and really, for what royal isn't there rumors?), nothing confirmed in Philip's actual life, making up stuff is pretty classless IMO. If this were Kennedy or pick your least favorite US president of the last 25 years, whose liaisons are pretty well confirmed, that would be different. I know this is a fictionalized dramatization of real events, but what they choose to include leaves an impression on the viewer of what things might actually have been and the impression "Philip probably had a liaison with a Russian ballerina" hardly seems fairly dramatized.

We've only made it through this one, so maybe this is resolved later.

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10 minutes ago, PinkRibbons said:

I'm rewatching now with my father (we share a love of factually-based historical dramas. And also movies where stuff blows up, but I digress) and have had another impression: Eileen is BADASS. She is the only character on the show to look Tommy Lascelles in the eye and essentially tell him to fuck off. I thought he even came out of their encounter with some respect for her, as opposed to the contempt he shows just about everyone else ("we don't actually care about the Parkers, screw them" etc etc).

Totally agree, and also LOVED when she lambasted Elizabeth for having no clue how her family's needs and demands affected other people's families and lives. Go Eileen! I was so relieved Tommy didn't manage to mess up her divorce proceedings. 

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Racked my brain... the actor who portrays Vice-Admiral Conolly Abel Smith in this and the previous episode is Adrian Lucas.

He was Mr. Wickam from the 1995 Pride and Prejudice.

The Crown can get ANY actor they want...but happy to see the ones from beloved British movies and BBC series of yore.

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48 minutes ago, PinkRibbons said:

She is the only character on the show to look Tommy Lascelles in the eye and essentially tell him to fuck off. I thought he even came out of their encounter with some respect for her, as opposed to the contempt he shows just about everyone else ("we don't actually care about the Parkers, screw them" etc etc).

When Tommy said that they don’t give a flying fig about the Parkers (in his veddy dry inimitable way), and then Adeane promptly agreed, I thought Tommy, in pausing to share a slightly contemplative look with Adeane, might have felt a twinge of guilt for being so cold about his statement.  It was a passing flicker, though, and maybe I read too much into it, because it didn’t amount to anything.  

There was a lot of emphasis on the symbolism of facial hair in this episode.  The beards of Mike and Philip on the royal tour were an implicit rejection of their London society life (Margaret calls them “shifty” when she sees them).  Eden trims his moustache before going off the plane to reconnect himself with the establishment.  The Queen gets Adeane to shave to try to show Philip that things around the palace can change.

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4 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

If we saw Philip trying to be proactive about his role—suggesting ideas for himself—instead of constantly whining, I’d have more sympathy for him.

So would I. It would be more sympathetic if he really was trying or suggesting ideas and getting shot down.  But all he does is whine. The remark about being out ranked by his eight year old son probably should have made me sympathetic but all I could think was well that sounds right place for you. Even an eight year old is more mature then you are. His childish remarks when Elizabeth's listing her complaints. Nothing is his fault. He's being infantilized.  Really? The entire Court is forcing you to be have like a baby? They don't at all want you to act like an adult?  

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13 hours ago, JessDVD said:

I'm also really not digging their choosing to do the mystery mistress(es) bit. Given that there were only rumors (and really, for what royal isn't there rumors?), nothing confirmed in Philip's actual life, making up stuff is pretty classless IMO. If this were Kennedy or pick your least favorite US president of the last 25 years, whose liaisons are pretty well confirmed, that would be different. I know this is a fictionalized dramatization of real events, but what they choose to include leaves an impression on the viewer of what things might actually have been and the impression "Philip probably had a liaison with a Russian ballerina" hardly seems fairly dramatized.

I'm okay with them alluding to Philip's alleged affairs without actually confirming them. But strongly implying that Galina Ulanova had sex with him? That's another story.

Unless there's some reason to believe they actually slept together in real life - and I'm not aware of any - that seems like a really bizarre way to take a crap on her memory.

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19 hours ago, humbleopinion said:

The camera QE gifted Phillip was a wind up camera.

He could shoot a few minutes at a time...the duration of the amount he wound up the camera....

Thank you! It’s the little things that I wonder about ?

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49 minutes ago, Blakeston said:

I'm okay with them alluding to Philip's alleged affairs without actually confirming them. But strongly implying that Galina Ulanova had sex with him? That's another story.

Unless there's some reason to believe they actually slept together in real life - and I'm not aware of any - that seems like a really bizarre way to take a crap on her memory.

Yeah, that part was problematic - which is something that makes me occasionally feel uneasy about the show: the mix of fact and fiction is so seamless that there's a real danger people take it as documentary (on a subconscious level). That's not going to happen with 'Victoria' - for better or worse.

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15 hours ago, JessDVD said:

 what they choose to include leaves an impression on the viewer of what things might actually have been and the impression "Philip probably had a liaison with a Russian ballerina" hardly seems fairly dramatized.

Elizabeth evidently thought that the photograph was a proof enough. But was it? Maybe Philip was only a fan? (Also, as I already said. Ulanova was a Soviet citizen. Was Philip such a fool that he would have given the Soviets a means to blackmail him?)

Thinking anew, I don't think that Mike Parker's letter would have accepted as a proof in the divorce court as there were no details. He could have claimed that it was only boasting such as men used to do.  

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1 hour ago, Roseanna said:

Thinking anew, I don't think that Mike Parker's letter would have accepted as a proof in the divorce court as there were no details. He could have claimed that it was only boasting such as men used to do.  

In oneof the fact checking articles it was said that the letter was made up for the show. In real life she had witnesses and was granted tge divorce.

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