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S02.E04: Beryl


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I'm watching this with my fiance.   He has NO idea who any of these people are.   At the party, he thought Margaret was the commoner.    When they were looking at the portrait on the landing, he thought Armstrong-Jones was trying to get her into porn.   I'm all "That's Princess Margaret, sister to the Queen.  HE's the commoner.   And no he didn't get her into porn, he married her and got a title out of it."

But for not knowing a darn thing he figured out Tony's power play in keeping her waiting and banging around upstairs.    Yeah, Margaret might be whiny and spoiled, but Tony was totally gaslighting her and controlling her.   What do we call someone who does that?

Margaret COULD have had a purpose and a cause.   She CHOSE to complain she was always in her sister's shadow and her sister got all the attention.   She liked "slumming" but got pissed if anyone didn't treat her special.   Margaret's problems were of her own making.

The Queen is doing the best she can.   She would love to be everything to everybody.   Her sense of duty demands that.   However, the fact remains, she IS Queen.   That must come first.   Would be nice if her husband and sister, the people she should most trust and be closest to, were a bit more supportive.

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I don't know why, but I could barely understand what people were saying this episode. The accents seemed a lot thicker in this one, I had to guess most of the time.

I put on Closed Captioning. There's an option on Netflix - and it's extremely accurate.

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This episode was pure Mad Men. The music, the staging, the carefree drinking/smoking, the humor with Billy Wallace, the pure sexuality of Vanessa/Margaret brought this couple into the 1960s, while Elizabeth and Philip will be stuck in the 1950s forever. I remember the fairytale wedding, I remember just how swoony they looked as a couple. I didn't like Margaret till this episode. It was so refreshing after the Sturm and Drang of Liz and Phil. Brava Vanessa.

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On 12/9/2017 at 6:36 PM, WatchrTina said:

Nope.  I'm right there with you.  His wandering about knocking over chairs and making random noises, keeping her waiting, struck me as just obnoxious.

Was I the only one who was confused by Margaret's change of clothes?  I don't recall her brining a second outfit (and why would she?) but when she came downstairs for the foreplay by the developing chemicals she had on different clothes than what she wore during the photo shoot.  That was . . . confusing.

The chair and noise thing was both obnoxious and bizarre. I also wondered about the second outfit (and at Tony's statement that she should change - before we see her in the second outfit). 

On 12/11/2017 at 4:18 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

We've seen that Margaret loves being social and the center of attention, so it was strange to see her so awkward at the dinner party. Poor Margaret - she deserves better than someone who, in her own words, "has contempt for her." It appears that Margaret was so desperate to break the rules that she fell for the first pick up artist she met.

Maybe she was so awkward because she wasn't the center of attention. It seemed odd to me too, since she's been shown to be such a party girl. Of course, her parties were made up of people who wanted to kiss up to royalty, and the people at this one seemed unimpressed.

I could see where someone like Margaret, who's been fawned over all her life, could interpret negging as refreshing and sexy. Sadly. 

I was surprisingly impressed to see a woman of a certain age have a guy on the side. I was kind of "you go girl" despite the fact that I disapprove of infidelity. It was just nice to see an older woman shown as having a sex life. Plus, I loved her expressions in the scene with Elizabeth and Phillip.  But when McMillan overheard her on the phone, I didn't care for her as much. I don't know much about him, but it is pretty harsh to hear your wife say that about you to another man, no matter what accommodations you've made in your life.

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On 12/14/2017 at 11:01 PM, GaT said:

I don't know why, but I could barely understand what people were saying this episode. The accents seemed a lot thicker in this one, I had to guess most of the time.

I always watch with the closed captioning on...just in case.

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21 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

The chair and noise thing was both obnoxious and bizarre. I also wondered about the second outfit (and at Tony's statement that she should change - before we see her in the second outfit). 

 

Seriously, all that banging on the floor was ridiculous. I am surprised Margaret didn't walk out. 

I liked the contrast between Margaret and Tony with Elizabeth and Phillip. Still, the queen and husband have weathered 10 years of ups and downs, I doubt Tony and Margaret will have that same commitment. 

Thanks to the recappers for explaining the MacMillan situation. I was thoroughly confused. First, I thought he was having an affair and she was leaving her husband. Now I understand they were talking about her ending an affair. I still think they could have explained it better on the show. 

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The actress who plays Margaret is doing an amazing job, and I am thrilled that she got an episode to shine. Margaret rocking out (and then breaking stuff in frustration) to Ella Fitzgerald while drunk and pissed off is now a new season highlight. Much like Philip, I can sympathize with her, but I also tend to roll my eyes at her a lot. She clearly feels trapped in a life she feels confused about, but at the same time, she seems alright with keeping things the way they are, and blaming her sister for things beyond her control. I thought her reaction to being at the bohemian party was interesting. It was hard to tell if she liked the fact that she was basically treated like just another person, or thought it was annoying. Or maybe it was both. 

Matthew Goode? Still dreamy. And looking great in period clothes. I also loved seeing everyone's reaction to the pictures. Of course Uncle Edward and Aunt Wallis are practically high fiving, Philip just looks amused (and maybe relieved that he WONT be the royal everyone is talking about for awhile), and Elizabeth is totally scandalized. I do feel bad for Elizabeth. She is just trying to keep this monarchy together damn it, and all her relatives keep running around causing problems!

Interesting goings on with the Macmillans. I also laughed when Elizabeth kept trying to talk during the new broadcast, while Macmillian kept interrupting her. Then she tells him just actually listen to people every once in awhile. 

Did Margaret and Philip ever have much of a relationship? They both feel stifled by their lives in the palace, and seem to alternately want to find a purpose, but also want to just hang out being rich and complaining about it. 

At least Margaret had the sense to tell that loser Billy to hit the bricks. I know her later marriage ended badly, but a marriage to a drunken idiot who cant even be bothered to wear shoes to a duel couldn't have been any better. 

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DS17 and I are loving the Margaret-centric episodes and thought this one was great. Looks like we may be in the minority from some of these posts. No matter, we will continue to enjoy her character even if it bears little resemblance to the real person. :)

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On 2017-12-10 at 4:26 AM, Eri said:

Margaret's downward spiral was both interesting and sad to watch but the actress is so good! The next day when the Queen Mother was cheerfully trying to set her up with someone else and Margaret's yelling at her to stop to no avail had me in stitches. You can hear her screaming internally just from the facial expressions alone.

I've seen Matthew Goode in other films and he was rather dashing in those too - it's just weird seeing him as a blonde as he always plays the "tall, dark and handsome" role.

As spoiled as Margaret was, she can definitely hold her own - watching her lay the verbal smack-down on Billy Wallace and dumping him was most gratifying. She was definitely born before her time, I can picture her doing so much better had she been allowed to use her intelligence and charm outside of royal duties.

I agree with everything!

Margaret was spoiled and rather stuck up but damn, Vanessa Kirby makes me sympathize with her. She is mesmerizing to watch just in a scene by herself. And that desperate unhappiness she exudes is impossible for me not to feel for. The dumping of Billy Wallace was glorious!

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15 hours ago, ciprus said:

I agree with everything!

Margaret was spoiled and rather stuck up but damn, Vanessa Kirby makes me sympathize with her. She is mesmerizing to watch just in a scene by herself.

I feel the same way about Alex Jennings playing Uncle David.  I should hate these two characters, but I don't. 

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On ‎14‎.‎12‎.‎2017 at 11:13 PM, merylinkid said:

I'm watching this with my fiance.   He has NO idea who any of these people are.   At the party, he thought Margaret was the commoner.    When they were looking at the portrait on the landing, he thought Armstrong-Jones was trying to get her into porn.   I'm all "That's Princess Margaret, sister to the Queen.  HE's the commoner.   And no he didn't get her into porn, he married her and got a title out of it."

But for not knowing a darn thing he figured out Tony's power play in keeping her waiting and banging around upstairs.    Yeah, Margaret might be whiny and spoiled, but Tony was totally gaslighting her and controlling her.   What do we call someone who does that?

I think that your fiance's interpretation is very interesting because a show should function on its own, without any irl information that many here have. 

Actually, we know only those details which Margaret and Tony's friends or servants has told. Obviously much is left out, especially about their courtship when they were alone at Tony's.

Thus, the show could have described a true romance that turned intoto a nightmare only afterwards, but instead it chose to desribe a power play and manipulation from the beginning. 

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The appeal of Matthew Goode is utterly lost on me. Couldn't understand all the swooning when he was on Downton Abbey, and can't understand it here either. He's just so  . . . chinless. Oh well - to each his (or her) own, I guess.

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On 12/28/2017 at 2:49 PM, iMonrey said:

The appeal of Matthew Goode is utterly lost on me. Couldn't understand all the swooning when he was on Downton Abbey, and can't understand it here either. He's just so  . . . chinless. Oh well - to each his (or her) own, I guess.

Same. He’d have to be a lot less polished and a lot nerdier. 

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On 12/10/2017 at 7:11 PM, rubyred said:

Margaret may have needed a cause/job, but I don't think we've seen any indication that she wanted one.

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When Elizabeth tells her flat out that Margaret liked being a princess to much to give it up, I actually cheered out loud.

Additionally, I would have preferred to have been shown rather than told that she was such a sparkling wit. For me she veers from spoiled brat to rude bitch, barely civil to anyone who doesn't anticipate her every wish. She was fascinated by Tony Armstrong-Jones because he negged her and that turned her on; there's nothing particularly modern or earth-shattering about being a poor little rich girl who runs off on the bad boy's motorcycle.

That said...Vanessa Kirby is really doing an amazing job. While I still don't like Margaret much (and I don't necessarily think the show is trying to make me like her), Kirby really infuses a lot of layers into her performance. I get right to the verge of empathizing with Margaret...and then she says or does something so very...Margaret... and I'm right back where I started. Kirby is killing it. 

I was a little bemused by the amount of time they spent on Armstrong-Jones. Was it just because they got Matthew Goode for the role? He comes across as about as trifling as you could imagine.

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And the sex scenes, I was like, what the hell show am I watching? Not because I don't like sex scenes but because tonally it felt jarring for this show.

Also...this show is about the Crown, I am not as interested in what is going on with the manchildren in this family, please let me watch Claire Foy convey complete emotional devastation without so much as the flicker of an eyelash.

I had trouble following this episode. I prefer the show to focus on the queen. I really enjoy Claire Foy's performance. Vanessa Kirby is doing a fine job, but I'm just not interested in Margaret. Matthew Goode did nothing for me. The character he played was kind of slight and effeminate, which isn't my taste in men. He did have chemistry with Kirby though. 

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On 12/28/2017 at 2:49 PM, iMonrey said:

The appeal of Matthew Goode is utterly lost on me. Couldn't understand all the swooning when he was on Downton Abbey, and can't understand it here either. He's just so  . . . chinless. Oh well - to each his (or her) own, I guess.

I’m not sure what’s going on with him. I’ve always thought him attractive (The Good Wife, Downton Abbey), but I don’t know. Definitely too chinless for my tastes. 

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On 12/9/2017 at 11:40 AM, Helena Dax said:

Elizabeth may be the Queen, but Margaret is my Queen. She was amazing in this episode and I can understand why she feels trapped in her world. Loved her awkwardness at the party, which is interesting because I bet she'd feel more comfortable having dinner in a foreign country with foreign mandataries than having dinner in England with regular English people. And what she did in the end was absolutely awesome, I couldn't stop laughing. Everyone's reaction was priceless. And of course Uncle Edward and Aunt Wallis were delighted, hah. Although, tbh, my favourite one was Philip's. Did he have a good relationship with Margaret in RL? I have the feeling that they would understand each other quite well, they seem to have the same naughty streak. 

I have always been a fan of Margaret (from afar, I doubt we would get along in real life). She was valued by her family (especially her father) not for her considerable talents and abilities but for her charm and diverting qualities--understandably, the family was under enormous stress in the late '30s and through the '40s but still. And she was criminally under-educated--the Queen Mum's blank astonishment on that score (back in S1's episode Scientia Potentia Est) was infuriating. Margaret was raised to do nothing other than to marry well*, and to try to carve out a life within certain strictures and under enormous scrutiny. She would've been a great cabaret performer (she was musically inclined) but of course that was unsuitable for someone of her class. She could've done well at university but she would've had to have worked very hard to catch up--for years, likely. She finally finds a man whom she loves and then she's not allowed to marry him. She has no clear role or function. Of course she's depressed. I find her story terribly sad.

*And even that is a stretch in England. Every match is a social step down--she's a Princess of the United Kingdom. She'd have to go abroad to marry someone in her class. And that really mattered in her set. Some people still look down on Kate Middleton for her middle-class roots.

 

On 12/19/2017 at 6:42 PM, ciprus said:

Margaret was spoiled and rather stuck up but damn, Vanessa Kirby makes me sympathize with her. She is mesmerizing to watch just in a scene by herself. And that desperate unhappiness she exudes is impossible for me not to feel for. The dumping of Billy Wallace was glorious!

Damn, did she put him in his place. Margaret's brutal putdowns were pretty legendary. But this storyline caught me by surprise--I have never heard she had another almost-engagement before Jones, was this based on truth?

 

On 12/17/2017 at 10:16 PM, latetotheparty said:

Closed captioning: it's not just for the hard of hearing anymore. :)

Yes, in the past few years when every show is set to Mumble, I pretty much use it by default.

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@CeeBeeGee yes Princess Margaret was involved with Peter Townsend and it was THE TALK that they weren’t allowed to marry. She was mad about him and he eventually married her look alike.....

 

Vanessa Kirby is rocking the characterization out of the park. 

Edited by Scarlett45
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1 minute ago, Scarlett45 said:

@CeeBeeGee yes Princess Margaret was involved with Peter Townsend and it was THE TALK that they weren’t allowed to marry. She was mad about him and he eventually married her look alike.....

No, no, I know all about Peter Townsend :) I'm asking about the almost engagement with Billy Wallace--I have never heard about this, was that based in fact?

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Just now, CeeBeeGee said:

No, no, I know all about Peter Townsend :) I'm asking about the almost engagement with Billy Wallace--I have never heard about this, was that based in fact?

Oh! Duh! My bad. I am not sure about that. 

 

It could be possible- Margaret was a very attractive and wealthy woman, I’m sure lots of men would’ve wanted to marry her. 

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5 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

Every match is a social step down--she's a Princess of the United Kingdom. She'd have to go abroad to marry someone in her class.

A Protestant princess doesn't have many choices.  I can't see her marrying some boring German prince (still too soon for anything even Nazi-adjacent—the Dutch ladies caught flak for that), and she's not going to end up in Scandinavia. In some ways, a commoner was her only option, but she chose the wrong commoner.

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I refuse to believe that Margaret was this snippy and miserable all the time, just like I refuse to believe that Philip was an insensitive jerk all the time.

 

This series would have done itself better to show just a bit more of the good times.

 

At this early point in the season, despite the fact that Elizabeth is the only one acting like an adult (and I’m including the Queen Mother in there), she’s also feeling pretty much like a doormat, letting them abuse her whenever they feel frustrated or thwarted. I can sympathize with Philip’s position (though his whining is beyond old), but Margaret is portrayed as just a miserable person and I doubt it would be much different if she’d been allowed to marry Townsend, because her jealousy of Elizabeth is palpable.

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4 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

A Protestant princess doesn't have many choices.  I can't see her marrying some boring German prince (still too soon for anything even Nazi-adjacent—the Dutch ladies caught flak for that), and she's not going to end up in Scandinavia. In some ways, a commoner was her only option, but she chose the wrong commoner.

There are various definitions of commoner, but a common (pun intended) one is someone who is not royalty or nobility. Margaret did not have many royal choices, but there were some choices among British and continental European nobility. For example, Princess Diana’s father was only a few years older than Margaret. Obviously, he married someone else, but there were other men like him. The House of Lorde used to have over a thousand members, and the clergy were only a small portion of the membership.

Prince Rainer of Monaco and Jean, Grand Duke of Luxembourg were also within appropriate age range to have been suitors for Margaret. I have no idea if she even knew them, but they are examples of other European royalty beyond Germany and Scandinavia.

However, modern British royals seem to prefer marrying fellow Brits (Philip is technically a Greek prince but grew up in the UK) or Americans so a British nobleman or commoner was the most likely choice for Margaret.

I imagine if Wallis Simpson hadn’t been an American, Margaret might have been interested in an American, I can see her loving the idea of shocking everyone with a cowboy or a movie star!

Edited by Athena5217
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13 hours ago, Athena5217 said:

Princess Diana’s father

Diana's father was an earl (albeit it for one of the older earldoms), which is a bit more than halfway up the aristocracy ladder (baronet, baron, viscount, earl, marquess, duke), but still a pretty big step down for a royal princess

13 hours ago, Athena5217 said:

Prince Rainer of Monaco and Jean, Grand Duke of Luxembourg were also within appropriate age range to have been suitors for Margaret.

Both Catholics, so no way.

13 hours ago, Athena5217 said:

I imagine if Wallis Simpson hadn’t been an American, Margaret might have been interested in an American, I can see her loving the idea of shocking everyone with a cowboy or a movie star!

This I totally buy.

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On 12/31/2017 at 8:11 PM, dubbel zout said:

A Protestant princess doesn't have many choices.  I can't see her marrying some boring German prince (still too soon for anything even Nazi-adjacent...

The Queen Mum didn't seem to think being in the Luftwaffe was a dealbreaker!

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9 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Diana's father was an earl (albeit it for one of the older earldoms), which is a bit more than halfway up the aristocracy ladder (baronet, baron, viscount, earl, marquess, duke), but still a pretty big step down for a royal princess

Baronets are not part of the peerage. As far as an earl being a big step down for a princess, some people might say that. However, an earl is not a commoner, which was my point.  Margaret had choices among British nobility. Perhaps none of them were acceptable choices for her romantically, but they were socially acceptable.

BTW, The only daughter of King George V  married the future Earl of Harewood so apparently an earl was good enough for Margaret’s great aunt. The Earl of Harewood was also a cousin to Alan Lascelles. 

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But Margaret was 2nd, then 3rd, then 4th in line for the throne until Andrew was born. She was higher than her aunt. There must have been some other descendant of Queen Vickie trolling his way around Europe that she could have picked up.

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On 12/31/2017 at 2:32 PM, CeeBeeGee said:

Yes, in the past few years when every show is set to Mumble, I pretty much use it by default.

Tangent, but as someone whose career was making big-time commercials, I'm perturbed by this Mumble trend on a whole other level. My training taught me not to accept a take from an actor or voiceover announcer which wasn't distinctly understandable. If even so much as a consonant was indistinct (a b for a p, or vice versa, for example) I got another take. Trust me, it was possible to achieve this without the actor sounding forced or unnatural, even when playing a character in a naturalistic setting. The same standards were applied in movies and TV shows, for similar and sensible reasons. Well, that's out the window.

Edited by Milburn Stone
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6 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I think the sound mixing has changed, too. On a lot of shows the music seems as loud as the dialogue, so I can't hear either properly. (Or maybe it's my ancient cathode-tube TV.)

That's definitely a problem - and I have a brand spanking new TV (though ever aging ears).

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6 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

I think the sound mixing has changed, too. On a lot of shows the music seems as loud as the dialogue, so I can't hear either properly. (Or maybe it's my ancient cathode-tube TV.)

The audio issues are worse on on new style TVs because there's no space for decent speakers.  The sound on almost all current TV shows is awful.  I have no problems with old stuff on MeTV or old movies on TCM, but every modern drama has the mumbling issue across all networks and platforms.  I think it's supposed to be some kind of artistic style or some other nonsense excuse.

Edited by Magnumfangirl
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22 minutes ago, Clanstarling said:

That's definitely a problem - and I have a brand spanking new TV (though ever aging ears).

 Sometimes it depends on the brand of TV. One of our three TVs is a Vizio, and I constantly have to adjust the SAP setting because the background music is too loud if I don't. 

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On 12/10/2017 at 11:12 AM, dubbel zout said:

I had to laugh at the Queen Mother's pearl-clutching "She looks naked!" Not really; bare shoulders in a portrait wasn't unusual.

Not just unusual in a portrait, but it seems that we often see Margaret at parties or official occasions wearing dresses that not only bare her shoulders but are quite low-cut. If photos were taken of her in these dresses, she would look just as naked! So the shock expressed not just by the QM seemed ridiculous.

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On 2017-12-10 at 8:12 AM, dubbel zout said:

I had to laugh at the Queen Mother's pearl-clutching "She looks naked!" Not really; bare shoulders in a portrait wasn't unusual.

I thought the exchange about "looks naked" was between Philip and Elizabeth.  They were each given a copy of the paper.  Philip is smiling and seems to like the picture. Elizabeth is looking at it but not speaking. Finally there is an exchange, the only part I can remember being Philip, speaking tentatively, saying "She looks... " and Elizabeth firmly completing the sentence with "naked!".

Was there another scene where that was said?

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21 hours ago, Anothermi said:

Finally there is an exchange, the only part I can remember being Philip, speaking tentatively, saying "She looks... " and Elizabeth firmly completing the sentence with "naked!".

Yes that's what it was because I lol'd and said "just wait a few years, your grandson is going to show you what naked really looks like!"

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You can read "naked" in a different way. I'm sure Elizabeth chose the obvious bare shoulders to put words to why the photo was so alarming, but perhaps she accidentally voiced a different meaning: it's also Margaret being quite emotionally naked, and that was very unexpected and probably disturbing to a family that has always been about keeping their feelings to themselves.

Edited by PinkRibbons
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There was a tiny, tiny, moment in this that I watched several times:  When Elizabeth was being undressed, and her dresser got to the crown.  The camera was looking to Elizabeth from Phillip's room, and Claire Foy did a tiny backward bend and dip for a second -- a delicate quick move that someone who wears a crown regularly would know how to make.  A very queenly royal gesture. 

About the bare shoulders -- it was fairly common for portraits to be done that way.   My high school was still doing bare-shoulder senior photos (for girls! to be clear!) a long time after this period.  Yes, I thought it was a little creepy even back then.  (Some schools still do this, I learned from the Internet.) 

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It's one thing to be photographed wearing a strapless dress that leaves the shoulders bare, but the dress is obviously there. The way that the photo of Margaret was framed, you couldn't see that she did have clothes on, so with only the shoulders showing, it looked like she could have been naked.

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1 hour ago, ombelico said:

It's one thing to be photographed wearing a strapless dress that leaves the shoulders bare, but the dress is obviously there. The way that the photo of Margaret was framed, you couldn't see that she did have clothes on, so with only the shoulders showing, it looked like she could have been naked.

Yes, and that is what a lot of portraits looked like in the 1960s; the high school seniors were given smocks or drapes that left their shoulders completely bare -- my point was that this is not an uncommon way to take all sorts of portraits then, so not shocking.  But not how the Royal family tended to be photographed! 

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