S02.E09: Paterfamilias

[formerlyfreedom]

 

Quote

Philip insists that Prince Charles attend his alma mater in Scotland and reminisces about the life-changing difficulties he experienced there.

 

[formerlyfreedom]

Poor Charles*. Philip is trying to recreate the events that made him the man he became, but Charles isn't young Philip. Philip lost a beloved sister, had a bad relationship with his father, had a mother who was fragile; he took his experience at Gordonstoun to become stronger. Charles, while not coming from the greatest family life, at least had some security/stability at home, that Philip never had; sending him to Gordonstoun was an unfortunate choice, IMO, and it seems Charles feels the same way.

The scene where they return after the challenge and Charles was clearly happier to see the staff (the nanny, a footman) then to search out his own mother was really sad.

*In the context of this episode

Spoiler

- not addressing future Charles here, my feelings are much more complex about the man as he is now!

[Roseanna]

5 hours ago, saoirse said:

Poor Charles*. Philip is trying to recreate the events that made him the man he became, but Charles isn't young Philip. Philip lost a beloved sister, had a bad relationship with his father, had a mother who was fragile; he took his experience at Gordonstoun to become stronger. Charles, while not coming from the greatest family life, at least had some security/stability at home, that Philip never had; sending him to Gordonstoun was an unfortunate choice, IMO, and it seems Charles feels the same way.

The scene where they return after the challenge and Charles was clearly happier to see the staff (the nanny, a footman) then to search out his own mother was really sad.

*In the context of this episode

  Reveal hidden contents

- not addressing future Charles here, my feelings are much more complex about the man as he is now!

Because Charles's version has been told before, I feel more sorry for Philip. It's he who has really has hard experiences in life, not Margaret.  He had no home, no country and (practically) no parents. So the school became his home. 

[millk]

My friend did a blog post just last month about the plane crash. Netty is a Dutch royal journalist. https://www.nettyroyalblog.nl/deaths-funerals/80-years-ago-how-a-tragic-plane-crash-changed-history/

[PinkRibbons]

(Preliminary statement: I never followed the modern British Royals so I know very little about Charles as an adult, I comment just based on what is portrayed here.)

I think the problem here is Philip making a mistake that probably all parents do at least a few times -- just most hopefully learn the error of their ways before it permanently scars their child -- thinking of your child as an extension of yourself, and not as a separate human being. If Philip had had any sense he would have taken a harder look at himself at Charles' age and realized that the school didn't "toughen him up" the way he wanted for Charles, but instead gave him a loving home. That the two boys had entirely different backgrounds and challenges to overcome, and most importantly, did not have anything close to similar personalities.

If Philip thought the school made him tough he should have remembered being a scrapper even before he was essentially orphaned. Charles as a child seemed like someone who didn't want to rattle anyone else, which is actually an excellent personality trait in a King. Even if Philip was going to assume that the child is the extension of the parent, why not ever consider that Charles was a version of his other parent, his mother? Honestly in a way it makes me hate Philip even more in his marriage, if the qualities he was so dismissive of were ones belonging to his wife.

My father is affectionate but not hands-on, so he doesn't know much about his childrens' personalities. I have always had the impression that his regard for my older sister is rooted in her being his show-child; looks like him (or even better, his beautiful late mother), thinks like him, racks up the achievements like him. But I have never felt less-loved by him because I am his sweetheart (OMG my sister and I are Pride and Joy), and I've always chalked that up largely to my resembling my mother. His affection for her extends in a way to me, so it works out for all of us.

[CelticBlackCat]

Netflix's "The Crown" version of death of Princess Cecile a "monstrous lie."

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5163451/Netflix-drama-Crown-slammed-Prince-Philip-lie.html

[PinkRibbons]

I think that article is completely missing the point. No one sensible or reasonable would blame Philip for his sister's death. The scene with his father doing so was meant to show what a shit father he had that he would say such a thing, not that Philip was actually directly responsible for his sister's death.

[anna0852]

The whole time I was watching this episode my heart nearly broke for Charles. I kept thinking in my head what would have happened if he had simply refused to go? He was clearly about 11 or 12 years old. What was Philip going to do, pick him up and carry him into school? I'm sure the press would have had a field day with that. And on further reflection, if Elizabeth was of a more manipulative personality then I think a few well planted articles regarding the conditions at the school and what the heir to the throne was being subjected to might have been enough to get him out of there. Feeding the information out through her well-adept secretaries so that there was no actual connection back to her and make sure the articles are extremely uncomplimentary about the school and I bet you anything the school would have been asking the royal family to move Charles somewhere else.

[Quilt Fairy]

That is one episode of this show that I won't be watching again.  Too depressing and sad.  I wonder if Uncle Dickie actually took Charles to the tailor for his Eton clothes or if that was wholly fiction.

Edited December 10, 2017 by Quilt Fairy

[JustaPerson]

I kind of love that last season Mountbatten was wrapped in some of the political intrigue of the show, and now he's just "Dickie"

[pivot]

Not a fan of adult Charles but felt terrible for him as he has such shitty parents. Charles wasn't a great parent by any means either but he was better than the Queen and her douche husband. 

[arjumand]

4 hours ago, PinkRibbons said:

I think that article is completely missing the point. No one sensible or reasonable would blame Philip for his sister's death. The scene with his father doing so was meant to show what a shit father he had that he would say such a thing, not that Philip was actually directly responsible for his sister's death.

Exactly! One of the saddest things for me in that episode was realising that Philip, years later, really blamed himself for Cecile's death, instead of brushing off his monstrous father's bullshit. And that he clearly took the wrong lesson from what Mountbatten was trying to tell him.

[PeterPirate]

6 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

That is one episode of this show that I won't be watching again.  Too depressing and sad.  I wonder if Uncle Dickie actually took Charles to the tailor for his Eton clothes or if that was wholly fiction.

I have trouble watching the episode again as well.  But I also find myself thinking that if Charles had gone to Eton and turned out to be more "normal", he would have married a more "normal" person, and not the very un-normal person he did.  Which would, at the very least, make seasons 3-6 of the The Crown a lot less interesting.   

 

9 hours ago, PinkRibbons said:

I think that article is completely missing the point. No one sensible or reasonable would blame Philip for his sister's death. The scene with his father doing so was meant to show what a shit father he had that he would say such a thing, not that Philip was actually directly responsible for his sister's death.

There are a number of Americans who blame the death of John Kennedy Jr. on the investment firm Morgan Stanley. His wife's sister was kept late at a meeting, which led to the three of them leaving late on their flight to Martha's Vineyard, and JFK Jr. had not been certified as ready for flying at night using instruments. "Blame" might not be the best word, but there is no doubt the 2+ hour departure delay was a contributing factor. 

Edited December 10, 2017 by PeterPirate

[Helena Dax]

Man, poor Charles. I can excuse Philip for sending him there because he had been happy in that school and he honestly thought it would be the same for his son. However, once he saw how truly unhappy Charles was there, they should have sent him to Eton.

And I agree that it was sad to see that he was closer to his bodyguard and his nanny than to his own parents. 

You know, now I realize than Philip was recreating his school days: grown up edition aboard the Britannia. 

The scene where Philip was walking between rows of Nazis was stunning and scary at the same time. He seemed to think they were completely crazy in a very frightening way. (Well spotted, Philip). Loved Mountbatten. He really cares for Philip and Charles. He's the Cool Uncle.

[Ina123]

11 hours ago, Quilt Fairy said:

That is one episode of this show that I won't be watching again.  Too depressing and sad.  I wonder if Uncle Dickie actually took Charles to the tailor for his Eton clothes or if that was wholly fiction.

It may have just been a made-up scene as Dickie was featured prominently in this episode with Charles to prepare for what happens to Mountbatten and how it affects Charles.

[Roseanna]

16 hours ago, PinkRibbons said:

No one sensible or reasonable would blame Philip for his sister's death. The scene with his father doing so was meant to show what a shit father he had that he would say such a thing, not that Philip was actually directly responsible for his sister's death.

 

12 hours ago, arjumand said:

Exactly! One of the saddest things for me in that episode was realising that Philip, years later, really blamed himself for Cecile's death, instead of brushing off his monstrous father's bullshit.

I find interesting that despite her sister's fate Philip still wanted to learn to fly and really enjoyed it (as told in S1). He is evidently a person who, when he has some problem or pain, goes towards it and thereby wins it, at least in a way. This episode revealed that he learned this method in Gordonstaun.  

[TaurusRose]

Phillip is a dick and how did the royal handlers get past that whole sisters married to Nazis issue?

[irisheyes]

4 hours ago, taurusrose said:

Phillip is a dick and how did the royal handlers get past that whole sisters married to Nazis issue?

He had fought admirably for the Royal Navy in WWII. Plus, I’m pretty sure Elizabeth had her father wrapped around her little finger, and she was determined to marry Philip, royal handlers be damned. So, George VI greased the wheels and made it happen. 

Edited December 11, 2017 by irisheyes

[Empress Josephine]

4 hours ago, taurusrose said:

Phillip is a dick and how did the royal handlers get past that whole sisters married to Nazis issue?

4 hours ago, taurusrose said:

 

 

This has to be said...a lot of German royal houses supported the Nazis in the early days of the party. Kaiser Wilhelm II and his sons thought that Hitler's admiration of Fredrick the Great and the greatness of the past empire was admirable and inspiring. Thus many of the Royals believed that Hitler was interested in restoring the House of Hohenzollern. Hitler was not interested in restoring them and it took a while for many of them to realize they had been duped and strung along. But many royals became members for that reason. But did they all live and breathe the doctrine? Many historians would say that the Kaiser certainly did not and his opinion of Nazism and Hitler was one of disdain. This didn't stop Goebbels from using the Kaiser's funeral for the propaganda machine.

 

I assume those same royal handlers got over it the same way that they got over their own master's many skeletons in the closet, by being hypocrites. Phillip's sisters may have been married to Nazis but at least he never tried to hide the fact or make excuses for them. Unlike the family he married into, Phillip didn't go doing things like 'willingly' changing his last name to erase German roots or go back on promises to rescuing relatives from being butchered by Bolsheviks because of 'public image'. Everything the house of Windsor did was for survival and from a historical perspective very much calculated so that they didn't drop like flies following the example of the rest of their relations after WWI.

Phillip's service to Britain during the War should speak for itself. He chose his side so why should he be punished for his relations choices? No one punished the British Royals for family choices, connections, and relations. 

Edited December 11, 2017 by Empress Josephine

[Roseanna]

19 hours ago, taurusrose said:

Phillip is a dick and how did the royal handlers get past that whole sisters married to Nazis issue?

 

15 hours ago, irisheyes said:

He had fought admirably for the Royal Navy in WWII. Plus, I’m pretty sure Elizabeth had her father wrapped around her little finger, and she was determined to marry Philip, royal handlers be damned. So, George VI greased the wheels and made it happen. 

 

15 hours ago, Empress Josephine said:

This has to be said...a lot of German royal houses supported the Nazis in the early days of the party. Kaiser Wilhelm II and his sons thought that Hitler's admiration of Fredrick the Great and the greatness of the past empire was admirable and inspiring. Thus many of the Royals believed that Hitler was interested in restoring the House of Hohenzollern. Hitler was not interested in restoring them and it took a while for many of them to realize they had been duped and strung along. But many royals became members for that reason. But did they all live and breathe the doctrine? Many historians would say that the Kaiser certainly did not and his opinion of Nazism and Hitler was one of disdain. This didn't stop Goebbels from using the Kaiser's funeral for the propaganda machine.

I assume those same royal handlers got over it the same way that they got over their own master's many skeletons in the closet, by being hypocrites. Phillip's sisters may have been married to Nazis but at least he never tried to hide the fact or make excuses for them. Unlike the family he married into, Phillip didn't go doing things like 'willingly' changing his last name to erase German roots or go back on promises to rescuing relatives from being butchered by Bolsheviks because of 'public image'. Everything the house of Windsor did was for survival and from a historical perspective very much calculated so that they didn't drop like flies following the example of the rest of their relations after WWI.

Phillip's service to Britain during the War should speak for itself. He chose his side so why should he be punished for his relations choices? No one punished the British Royals for family choices, connections, and relations. 

I can't undestand how Philip could be held responsible for his sisters and their husbands? I learned already in the school a poem which emphasized the anciet concept of law: "A wife is not responsible for her husband's deeds." 

Besides, Philip's cosmopolitan background was normal for royals and aristocracy. The British xenophony seems really odd.  

[MelineB13]

The actor they chose as Young Philip looks so much like Ryan Phillippe to me that I called him Phillippe in my head in every scene. To the point that I kept missing actual plot points. 

That being said, poor little muffin Charles. I also really enjoy all the end of episode notes about real history. 

[spottedreptile]

On 10/12/2017 at 4:01 PM, anna0852 said:

I kept thinking in my head what would have happened if he had simply refused to go? He was clearly about 11 or 12 years old. What was Philip going to do, pick him up and carry him into school?

But children like Charles lived in the 1950s, not modern day where kids constantly argue and ignore their parents. Children of that era had it drummed into their heads very early that parents were the law, and to disobey them was sinful under God. Charles wouldn't have dreamed of being a rebel. If your parents said you were going to a certain school, you went, especially if you were 11 or 12. And Charles strikes me as a very conformist child who constantly hoped for Dad's approval so the chances of sticking up for himself and taking a stand against his father were zero IMO.

Philip is portrayed as very emasculated in the show, which I find plausible in the light of what I have read and seen about him in my lifetime. So being an authoritarian father probably gave him back some self-respect, but it would have been very hard on sensitive kids like Charles who would have seen very early on he was a disappointment to his father because he amplified all the character traits that Philip was uncomfortable with himself. Philip may have even resented Charles for being who he was, and not the strong masculine figure Philip desperately wanted his son to be so he could feel validated as a man.

[anna0852]

Oh I know it was a completely different time. I guess that was simply more illustrative of me having been raised many many years later and under completely different circumstances. I really feel very badly for poor Charles here. Honestly, no wonder he was so miserable with Diana. He had clearly found happiness with Camilla and would have been understandably upset at having that removed. After that kind of schooling I imagine he would have clung very closely to any sort of love and comfort.

[JustaPerson]

47 minutes ago, MelineB13 said:

The actor they chose as Young Philip looks so much like Ryan Phillippe to me that I called him Phillippe in my head in every scene. To the point that I kept missing actual plot points. 

I thought the same. He doesn't resemble Matt Smith at all. He does look like he might grow to look like the real Prince Philip. Well, more than Matt Smith does. 

[Calamity Jane]

I kept wondering if the writers were trying to get us to see Charles as being on the spectrum, with all the talk of his being "different."  It would explain some things about him, I suppose, but it gets thrown around an awful lot lately, which makes me skeptical.  Shy, reserved, introverted - all that I can buy easily, but it doesn't mean autistic.  I doubt we know enough to conclude anything else.  

No matter what his issues were, I was appalled at the conditions at that school.  British boarding schools are/were notorious for bullying and other abuse, and produced generations of easily blackmailed, mal-adjusted adults.  Poor Charles, living out Lord of the Flies in Scotland with an oblivious? overseer who saw himself as a good person.  Gah.  

[moonb]

I'm surprised that the characters in story haven't pointed out that Charles' temperament and personality resembles dear old George VI. Maybe not in sensitivity,  but in general introversion and reserve. Then again, shy Bertie obviously wasn't groomed for the throne and Charles' parents would likely want him to be confident and assured of his role as heir.

[spaceghostess]

This episode broke my heart. I couldn't help being disappointed in Elizabeth; one of the major rules of parenting is do NOT promise things you can't deliver. Charles knows his dad well enough to raise doubts about whether he'll agree to Eton and Elizabeth goes and hand-waves his concerns. That's on her. Clearly she and Philip don't share very much, but even so, she should know her husband well enough to figure he's not going to bend re: one of the responsibilities designated as "his". Putting aside Philip's apparent determination to exorcise his demons via his son, one could reasonably surmise that he'd stick to his guns about the school just because he's that brand of bloody-minded prick (and it appears he was something of a prick as a kid, as well). I wasn't down with all of that Officer and a Gentleman bullshit, either, since I don't subscribe to the boot-camp philosophy that you need to break someone down to build them up stronger and make them "part of the team". It doesn't work for everybody; as a matter of fact, it destroys some people, a message that everyone, from Mountbatten to Elizabeth to Charles himself, was practically screaming in Philip's dumb face.

Say what you will about some of Charles's hinky choices, he appears to have been a compassionate dad to his boys, and they seem very close with him. At least the apple rolled safely clear of the tree in that respect.

And not for nothing, he wasn't exactly a physical nerd. He was/is an excellent horseman who ruled the polo field for decades.

[PRgal]

That school was abusive to the core.  And the child labour?  *GAH*  I'm sure it's not like that now (I haven't checked the school's website, but it’s likely marketed as an outdoorsy/nature-oriented type place), but there are many kids who THRIVE in very physical type schools.  It just wasn't the right place for Charles.

Edited December 12, 2017 by PRgal

[SWLinPHX]

Can someone refresh my memory who "Uncle Dickie" is?  Philip had a brother?

...oops, never mind.  He was Philip's uncle (Charles's great uncle).

Edited December 13, 2017 by SWLinPHX

[PRgal]

Something I wondered about the school Philip and Charles both went to (Andrew, too, correct?):  At the very last scene when Philip was working on the school's gate, there was one kid who was an amputee.  I didn't think schools like that took in special needs students at that time.  And since the school is so physically demanding, what would they have made him do?  They didn't accommodate kids then like they do now. 

[millk]

27 minutes ago, PRgal said:

Something I wondered about the school Philip and Charles both went to (Andrew, too, correct?):  At the very last scene when Philip was working on the school's gate, there was one kid who was an amputee.  I didn't think schools like that took in special needs students at that time.  And since the school is so physically demanding, what would they have made him do?  They didn't accommodate kids then like they do now. 

Andrew and Edward both went and then Anne's two children Peter and Zara (after it admitted girls.)

[TV Diva Queen]

On 12/11/2017 at 8:10 PM, spaceghostess said:

This episode broke my heart. I couldn't help being disappointed in Elizabeth; one of the major rules of parenting is do NOT promise things you can't deliver. Charles knows his dad well enough to raise doubts about whether he'll agree to Eton and Elizabeth goes and hand-waves his concerns. That's on her. Clearly she and Philip don't share very much, but even so, she should know her husband well enough to figure he's not going to bend re: one of the responsibilities designated as "his". Putting aside Philip's apparent determination to exorcise his demons via his son, one could reasonably surmise that he'd stick to his guns about the school just because he's that brand of bloody-minded prick (and it appears he was something of a prick as a kid, as well). I wasn't down with all of that Officer and a Gentleman bullshit, either, since I don't subscribe to the boot-camp philosophy that you need to break someone down to build them up stronger and make them "part of the team". It doesn't work for everybody; as a matter of fact, it destroys some people, a message that everyone, from Mountbatten to Elizabeth to Charles himself, was practically screaming in Philip's dumb face.

Say what you will about some of Charles's hinky choices, he appears to have been a compassionate dad to his boys, and they seem very close with him. At least the apple rolled safely clear of the tree in that respect.

And not for nothing, he wasn't exactly a physical nerd. He was/is an excellent horseman who ruled the polo field for decades.

I seem to remember that he was always falling off his horse.  It was a running joke, at least in the states it was.  I know NOTHING about polo, which means, that falling off the horse may be common.  

[seahag50]

There is a complete difference in the parent child relationship then as compared to now.  I'm the same age as Anne and my parents words were law.  There was never a discussion regarding anything.  If you weren't working then you better find something to do.....that's the German authority I was raised in.  I had a wonderful childhood and it taught me to be tough....Charles was sensitive and his father was not...he wanted his son to be a reflection of him...and its not gonna happen...Anne should have been his son.

[spaceghostess]

9 hours ago, TV Diva Queen said:

I seem to remember that he was always falling off his horse.  It was a running joke, at least in the states it was.  I know NOTHING about polo, which means, that falling off the horse may be common.  

Ha! I was in my teens and not a royals-watcher, but I remember hearing about him with the polo all the time. It was my British ex-husband who told me he was really good at it, but maybe not? Now I'm wondering whether he was actually the Gerald Ford of the polo set. 

Edited December 14, 2017 by spaceghostess

[PRgal]

14 hours ago, seahag50 said:

There is a complete difference in the parent child relationship then as compared to now.  I'm the same age as Anne and my parents words were law.  There was never a discussion regarding anything.  If you weren't working then you better find something to do.....that's the German authority I was raised in.  I had a wonderful childhood and it taught me to be tough....Charles was sensitive and his father was not...he wanted his son to be a reflection of him...and its not gonna happen...Anne should have been his son.

A lot of cultures are STILL like that.  Hey, even *I* feel guilty for not listening/obeying and have fallen into A LOT of pressure.  My parents loved me and still love me, but it's their advice.  Still, in the context of this episode, I really felt badly for him and really wanted to give him a nice, big hug - especially when he looked like he was going to cry in that car with Uncle Dickie.  Because no one should be crying while eating cookies!!  

[WatchrTina]

Okay, I could not figure out why "Dickie" was at the funeral so off I went to Wikipedia.  It says of him:

Quote

 His siblings [included] Princess Alice of Battenberg (mother of Prince Philip, Duke of Edinburgh)

Okay so Uncle Dicke was there because Philip's mother is Dicke's sister and Philip's sister who died in the crash was Dickie's niece.  Got it. 

Well, that was a depressing hour of television I won't ever need to watch again.  It's episodes like that that remind you that being a "royal" can really suck.  

[dubbel zout]

On 12/10/2017 at 1:47 PM, Helena Dax said:

Man, poor Charles. I can excuse Philip for sending him there because he had been happy in that school and he honestly thought it would be the same for his son. However, once he saw how truly unhappy Charles was there, they should have sent him to Eton.

Especially because this was the second school Charles had been miserable at. Maybe it's not about you anymore, Phil. Though I have to say, I'm not entirely sure Eton would have been all rainbows and puppies. Just because Charles would have been around boys with more similar backgrounds doesn't mean he'd have thrived there.

I was slightly annoyed that the end titles said Charles sent his sons to Eton. By all accounts it was Diana who strongly wanted William and Harry to go there, as was traditional for the men in her family. Charles likely didn't disagree because of his own miserable schooldays.

On 12/10/2017 at 4:03 PM, Roseanna said:

I find interesting that despite [his] sister's fate Philip still wanted to learn to fly and really enjoyed it (as told in S1).

As did Charles, interestingly.

On 12/10/2017 at 10:31 PM, Empress Josephine said:

Hitler was not interested in restoring them and it took a while for many of them to realize they had been duped and strung along.

Hitler was acutely aware of the propaganda value of the various German royal houses. When a grandson of the Kaiser was killed in action in 1940, public grief was so intense it worried him, so he issued a decree forbidding them to join or participate in the armed forces.

Say what you want about how grasping, ambitious, meddling, etc., that Dickie was, but when the chips were down, the guy was an emotional rock for his nephew and grandnephew. After Cecile was killed, Dickie tried to give Philip some semblance of home life when he (Dickie) was able to. I think there was also some financial support in terms of school fees and such. And with the Queen Mother, I think he was one of Charles's closest family confidants.

[WatchrTina]

13 minutes ago, dubbel zout said:

I think there was also some financial support in terms of school fees and such. 

Why would Charles, son of one of  the richest woman in Great Britain -- if not THE richest woman -- need help with school fees?  That just doesn't seem right.

But I do love the idea (which I've heard asserted in more than one place) that Mountbatten was a source of emotional support to both Philip and Charles and that Charles, in particular, was devastated by his death.

[Athena]

59 minutes ago, WatchrTina said:

Why would Charles, son of one of  the richest woman in Great Britain -- if not THE richest woman -- need help with school fees?  That just doesn't seem right.

I believe @dubbel zout meant Philip's school fees. Philip was an exile and stateless person who was more or less orphaned. Dickie gave him some stability in Britain including a last name. When someone asked Philip what his last name was, he really didn't have one after Prince Andrew of Greece was exiled. I think Dickie encouraged Philip to take his mother's family name / his name as a result.

Charles wouldn't necessarily have loved Eton but it was on the doorstep of Windsor so he could have gone home most weekends. That would have been more bearable than a remote part of Scotland.

[Cheezwiz]

This was a very sad episode. Had no idea that Phillip had a large portion of his family wiped out in a plane crash.

Clearly Phillip did not understand that what worked for him as a youngster, might not necessarily work for his offspring. I remember seeing news footage of Gordonstoun, and it was a really grim looking place in the middle of nowhere. Apparently when Charles went, they were still forcing students to take cold showers every morning.

A shame the Queen didn't overrule Phillip when Charles began having difficulties at school.

[cardigirl]

Wow, all I could think of during this episode, was poor Philip.  This gave me more sympathy for him, with such a tough row to hoe.  And he overcame it and figured out how to be egalitarian, well, at least at school.  

I think it's interesting that to many viewers, Gordonstoun seems like child abuse, but the idea of the school was to teach the boys to be self-reliant, that everyone has worth, and to be tough. Running in all kinds of weather, cold showers, there are a lot of people today who could benefit from a regimen like that.  When Philip first got there, his attitude was that he was royalty, he shouldn't have to do labor.  

It is interesting to me that although Charles has said he was miserable there, his two brothers also attended Gordonstoun, so I guess the Queen felt the school was of some worth. 

[WatchrTina]

16 hours ago, Cheezwiz said:

A shame the Queen didn't overrule Phillip when Charles began having difficulties at school.

Wasn't it strongly implied that, for Phillip, the choice of school for his son was "a bridge too far"?  My take-away from that conversation he has with Elizabeth is that if she overrules him on this, a private matter regarding the upbringing of their children -- if he cannot have final authority in at least that sphere of his life -- then the promises he made when they were aboard the Britannia were off the table.  He would no longer be "in and not out."  He didn't say it explicitly but I got the distinct sense of a credible threat from him in that scene.  His ego (and a big part of his identity) were caught up in holding the line on this one point.  And since Andrew and Edward were sent there as well it appear he never seriously questioned the correctness of his position.

What I find most interesting is that Phillip and "Dickie" were so completely at odds on this one.  I thought they were very close, with Mountbatten being almost a surrogate father for Phillip.  So it's surprising that they came down on such opposite sides of the fence on this topic.

Also, much as I loved the montage with Charles getting kitted out for Eton, I find it hard to believe that that would take place without the matter of his choice of school being completely settled within the family.

Edited December 15, 2017 by WatchrTina

[dubbel zout]

13 hours ago, Athena said:

I believe @dubbel zout meant Philip's school fees.

Yes, I meant Dickie helped with Philip's school fees. Sorry that was unclear.

13 hours ago, Athena said:

When someone asked Philip what his last name was, he really didn't have one after Prince Andrew of Greece was exiled.

Philip was born into the House of Schleswig-Holstein-Sonderburg-Glücksburg, but that's kind of a mouthful.

2 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

What I find most interesting is that Phillip and "Dickie" were so completely at odd on this one.  I thought they were very close, with Mountbatten being almost a surrogate father for Phillip.  So it's surprising that they came down on such opposite sides of the fence on this topic.

I wasn't surprised. Dickie was always acutely aware of his place in British society, and it would make sense he'd support Charles going to a school that was in the very heart of it. Philip, on the other hand, was thinking that his son needed to get away from that sort of coddling (as he likely saw it) and learn to fend for himself. We saw that play out rather hilariously in the scene where a footman cut Charles's toast into soldiers for him at breakfast.

2 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Also, much as I loved the montage with Charles getting kitted out for Eton, I find it hard to believe that that would take place without the matter of his choice of school being completely settled within the family.

This I totally agree with. Morgan does love his dramatic license.

Whatever you think of Charles, I think it's clear he's been a very good father to William and Harry. And it also seems that Philip is a pretty good grandfather, though that's always the easier job. Philip seems to have decent relationships with all of his grandchildren.

[Roseanna]

3 hours ago, WatchrTina said:

Wasn't it strongly implied that, for Phillip, the choice of school for his son was "a bridge too far"?  My take-away from that conversation he has with Elizabeth is that if she overrules him on this, a private matter regarding the upbringing of their children -- if he cannot have final authority in at least that sphere of his life -- then the promises he made when they were aboard the Britannia were off the table.  He would no longer be "in and not out."  He didn't say it explicitly but I got the distinct sense of a credible threat from him in that scene.  His ego (and a big part of his identity) were caught up in holding the line on this one point.  And since Andrew and Edward were sent there as well it appear he never seriously questioned the correctness of his position.

Philip did't imply but spoke directly: she had to decide if she wanted or keep her husband or not (overruling him would mean the latter). So it was a threat.  

Thinking anew, why did Elizabeth even speak with Charles's former rector as the children's school was Philip's business? I guess it was only for drama's sake.

[JustaPerson]

I did like that they actually had Philip's German brother-in-law, and Philip himself, speaking German while in Germany. They could have easily just had him speaking accented english (which he did do) the whole time. 

[PRgal]

16 hours ago, Athena said:

I believe @dubbel zout meant Philip's school fees. Philip was an exile and stateless person who was more or less orphaned. Dickie gave him some stability in Britain including a last name. When someone asked Philip what his last name was, he really didn't have one after Prince Andrew of Greece was exiled. I think Dickie encouraged Philip to take his mother's family name / his name as a result.

Charles wouldn't necessarily have loved Eton but it was on the doorstep of Windsor so he could have gone home most weekends. That would have been more bearable than a remote part of Scotland.

 

I don't think boarding schools had weekday boarding options back then.  They also likely required kids to stay most weekends regardless - many had Saturday morning classes (with short days one day a week).  

[Athena]

1 hour ago, PRgal said:

 

I don't think boarding schools had weekday boarding options back then.  They also likely required kids to stay most weekends regardless - many had Saturday morning classes (with short days one day a week).  

True, but even Elizabeth told Charles he could come home for visits on weekends by running a couple of hills. I think Charles definitely would have preferred it to going farther away.

[Roseanna]

On 12/10/2017 at 9:31 PM, Empress Josephine said:

This has to be said...a lot of German royal houses supported the Nazis in the early days of the party. Kaiser Wilhelm II and his sons thought that Hitler's admiration of Fredrick the Great and the greatness of the past empire was admirable and inspiring. Thus many of the Royals believed that Hitler was interested in restoring the House of Hohenzollern. Hitler was not interested in restoring them and it took a while for many of them to realize they had been duped and strung along. But many royals became members for that reason. But did they all live and breathe the doctrine? Many historians would say that the Kaiser certainly did not and his opinion of Nazism and Hitler was one of disdain. This didn't stop Goebbels from using the Kaiser's funeral for the propaganda machine.

I assume those same royal handlers got over it the same way that they got over their own master's many skeletons in the closet, by being hypocrites. Phillip's sisters may have been married to Nazis but at least he never tried to hide the fact or make excuses for them. 

Cecile was married in 1931, so it's not clear if she married a Nazi or if her husband became a Nazi after January 1933. I think that the show dealt the matter too easily ("oh, those horrible Nazis"). 

During the Weimar republic, many Conservative member of former elites never accepted Democrary. They were afraid of Communists and unwilling to cooperate even with Social Democrats. The crux of the matter wasn't that the Nazis had about third of votes but that only the minority supported Democracy.        

After Hitler came to power, if you were an ambitious man who wanted to make a successful career (at least outside the army), you had to became a Party member (just like in the Soviet Union).

On 12/10/2017 at 9:31 PM, Empress Josephine said:

Phillip's service to Britain during the War should speak for itself. He chose his side so why should he be punished for his relations choices? 

That's true. Although was it just a coincidence: because he went to school in Britain that it was natural to him to fight for it? If he had stayed in Germany, maybe it would have been just as natural to fight for it. Or maybe he would have been retained as an enemy alien?

In any case, he isn't responsible for her sisters's husbands.   

[dubbel zout]

2 minutes ago, Roseanna said:

Although was it just a coincidence: because he went to school in Britain that it was natural to him to fight for it? If he had stayed in Germany, maybe it would have been just as natural to fight for it. Or maybe he would have been retained as an enemy alien?

After Cecilie was killed, Philip lived mainly in England, bouncing around from family member to family member, so that probably added to his feelings of loyalty toward the country. I don't think he had the same close relationship with his other sisters, likely because they were quite a bit older than he. (Though Cecilie wasn't the youngest of his four sisters; Sophie was.)

[Cheezwiz]

1 minute ago, dubbel zout said:

After Cecilie was killed, Philip lived mainly in England, bouncing around from family member to family member, so that probably added to his feelings of loyalty toward the country. I don't think he had the same close relationship with his other sisters, likely because they were quite a bit older than he. (Though Cecilie wasn't the youngest of his four sisters; Sophie was.)

I think that's correct - from what little I've read, Phillip wasn't especially close to his sisters due to the age gap. Once he moved back to England, he didn't have much to do with them. I'm assuming he probably felt more loyal to England, because it provided him some stability when he was essentially a stateless person.