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S02.E09: Paterfamilias


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47 minutes ago, Hanahope said:

When you think that if Elizabeth had been a man and king, he likely would have made all the decisions including education for the kids, regardless of what the mother/queen wanted.  Philip Ugh.

It's easy for us to judge Phillip. I find myself in sympathy with those who are in sympathy with him. This is what he was saying: "Seriously? SERIOUSLY??!? I want just this one little sliver of discretion over the fate of my son--a sliver you promised me, by the way--and which is important to me to my very core, the thing that as a father matters most to me in the entire world, to see my son turn out well--and you can't even give me THAT???"

Charles suffered for it, of that there is no doubt. But that doesn't undercut the validity of Phillip's need.

Edited by Milburn Stone
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9 hours ago, Milburn Stone said:

It's easy for us to judge Phillip. I find myself in sympathy with those who are in sympathy with him. This is what he was saying: "Seriously? SERIOUSLY??!? I want just this one little sliver of discretion over the fate of my son--a sliver you promised me, by the way--and which is important to me to my very core, the thing that as a father matters most to me in the entire world, to see my son turn out well--and you can't even give me THAT???"

Charles suffered for it, of that there is no doubt. But that doesn't undercut the validity of Phillip's need.

The very essence of patriarchy - even though the Queen is the Queen, her spouse still wants to assert himself. Why couldn't Philip take a back seat and support Elizabeth the way Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon supported George VI?

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12 hours ago, CousinAmy said:

The very essence of patriarchy - even though the Queen is the Queen, her spouse still wants to assert himself. Why couldn't Philip take a back seat and support Elizabeth the way Elizabeth Bowes-Lyon supported George VI?

Because of the age but also because of character and background. 

A woman was raised to support her spouse and some were even capable to manipulate him without him ever realizing that. Philip couldn't either.  

Also, their roles were changed when they had been married some years, so they had already used to their roles.

Cf. Prince Daniel, the husband of the Swedish Crown Princess Victoria who seems to quite happy with his supporting role although he had to abandon his own business. It has likely helped that he has an older sister. But the French husband of the Danish queen has been openly dissatisfied and even refused to participate in representative obligations.   

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Philip knew before they were married - before he met her - that Elizabeth would be the Queen of England. He probably had his eye on her future self when she was a child (he lived in Windsor Castle for awhile - he was well aware of her.) I know all about gender roles - my parents were also young adults at the same time. My father was embarrassed in 1960 that my mother had to go to work to help pay the bills. I just expect more from someone who definitely married way, way up.

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42 minutes ago, CousinAmy said:

Philip knew before they were married - before he met her - that Elizabeth would be the Queen of England. He probably had his eye on her future self when she was a child (he lived in Windsor Castle for awhile - he was well aware of her.) I know all about gender roles - my parents were also young adults at the same time. My father was embarrassed in 1960 that my mother had to go to work to help pay the bills. I just expect more from someone who definitely married way, way up.

I expected more because he knew from the beginning she was going to be Queen. All we really seem him do is whine. Endlessly. For over two seasons he's whined, complained and blamed his wife who he knows very well she never wanted to be Queen either. Its not exactly been a picnic for her either. But she's managing it and with no real support from anyone in her family. Including her husband. Going by the timeline in the show he's behaved this way for a decade.  It took him a decade to grow up and start doing the job he should have been doing from the beginning?    

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1 hour ago, CousinAmy said:

Philip knew before they were married - before he met her - that Elizabeth would be the Queen of England. He probably had his eye on her future self when she was a child (he lived in Windsor Castle for awhile - he was well aware of her.) I know all about gender roles - my parents were also young adults at the same time. My father was embarrassed in 1960 that my mother had to go to work to help pay the bills. I just expect more from someone who definitely married way, way up.

 

15 minutes ago, andromeda331 said:

I expected more because he knew from the beginning she was going to be Queen. All we really seem him do is whine. Endlessly. For over two seasons he's whined, complained and blamed his wife who he knows very well she never wanted to be Queen either. Its not exactly been a picnic for her either. But she's managing it and with no real support from anyone in her family. Including her husband. Going by the timeline in the show he's behaved this way for a decade.  It took him a decade to grow up and start doing the job he should have been doing from the beginning?    

I think that the show showed some understanding towards Philip in the early stage when all his plans and expectations - living in Clarence Palace, the only home he had ever had, and giving his children his own surname, were crushed by the Quen Mother, Lascelles and Churchill.

On the other hand, it was the question whose advice the Queen would follow - those of her husband or the prime minister. Philip couldn't be allowed to become the gray eminence, especially as he was considered a foreigner.

On the other hand, the Queen Mother and Lascelles didn't convey the least bit the consequences to Elizabeth's marriage. On can undertand Lascelles - he was after all a public servant - but less Elizabeth's mother who had had a happy marriage herself. 

I agree with you both that Philip's constant whining made him unsympathic and was dramatically boring.         

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I also think it is a bit of an age thing. Not excusing Philip and the whining on the show but I can understand that although he knew (sort of) what was coming, expecting to be husband to a Queen and the restrictions that entails seems a lot less daunting when you think it won't happen until you are middle-aged and you might not care so much and have had a chance to make a home for your family.

And he didn't seem to have anyone either to prepare him for his role properly.

They reacted very differently to all this but then, they are very different people.

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On 1/17/2018 at 8:39 AM, Roseanna said:

 

Also, Philip wasn't totally insensitive. He said in the plane that he wasn't angry to Charles for not he succeeding in the competition. It was only when Charles became afraid when the plane bumped and began to cry, that Philip exploded - and the reason probably was not Charles "weakness" but bumping reminded Philip of her sister and her family's death. 

I didn’t get that impression at all. He was dismissive of her sister’s fear of flying and angered by Charles’ very reasonable fear of his father’s erratic behavior.  I think flying was Philip’s one thing to take pride in after the loss of his career. Charles was not admiring but afraid  and Philip couldn’t take that. It’s an odd scene in an episode that seemed to be designed to pai t Philip as a sympathetic  character. 

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19 minutes ago, latetotheparty said:

I didn’t get that impression at all. He was dismissive of her sister’s fear of flying and angered by Charles’ very reasonable fear of his father’s erratic behavior.  I think flying was Philip’s one thing to take pride in after the loss of his career. Charles was not admiring but afraid  and Philip couldn’t take that. It’s an odd scene in an episode that seemed to be designed to pai t Philip as a sympathetic  character. 

I don't think the aim of the episode was to seem Philip sympathetic as a father but to explain why his childhood experiences had made him such a man and father he was. 

However, when Charles and Anne were small, Philip was seen to play with them, unlike Elizabeth. When Charles became bigger, Philip regarded him too "sissy" whereas Anne should have been a boy.

Let's also the remember the age: many fathers who had fought in the war, drank too much, were unable to show positive feelings, beat their wife and children and woke them constantly with their nightmares.  How hard time Charles had in Gordonstoun, he had at least servants to dote him.     

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13 hours ago, Roseanna said:

I think that the show showed some understanding towards Philip in the early stage when all his plans and expectations - living in Clarence Palace, the only home he had ever had, and giving his children his own surname,

I wonder if opinions would be a bit more sympathetic toward Philip if "Paterfamilias" hadn't been the penultimate episode. I get why they put it where it is, but knowing how Philip grew up explains a lot about these issues. The whining about having nothing to do is still all on him, IMO. Heh.

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3 hours ago, Atlanta said:

IMO, it made Philip a more complex character but he's still a whiny and lame husband. Other than looks, what on earth endeared Elizabeth to him? Is it the way Matt Smith plays him?

I don't know if you have ever been a teenage girl, but Philip was handsome, charming, probably quite clever - she was a teenager and had a crush on him. As for the other way around - Elizabeth was pretty, but not a knock-out, not known to be especially clever - what did he see in her?

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14 hours ago, CousinAmy said:

I don't know if you have ever been a teenage girl, but Philip was handsome, charming, probably quite clever - she was a teenager and had a crush on him. As for the other way around - Elizabeth was pretty, but not a knock-out, not known to be especially clever - what did he see in her?

I think Elizabeth was essentially loyal: once she had given her heart and made her marriage vows, she loved Philip whatever he did. Alsom, the ideal of the age for the women was to suffer and forgive. And the show makes clear that she was sexually attracted to him.

As for Philip, to him there were women of the two kind: those who could be bedded and those who could be wedded. Elizabeth would become a good wife: be faithful and give birth to children, admire her husband, let him order all matters and never compete with him. And then all changed when she became the Queen.

The chief point was that Philip wasn't romantic and probably wouldn't marry "downstairs". How many heiresses was there to chose? Why not marry the one who loved him? 

Edited by Roseanna
correcting grammar
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Continueing:

Although Philip's whining is boring, he is the only person who speaks honestly what he thinks to Elizabeth and, if he disagrees with her, argues directly as he did in this episode. Remember how Lascelles has manipulated her in S1 (she couldn't even chose the private secretary she liked best).

Also, when he showed admiration for her standing against Uncle David, she knew that it was genuine. She can never be sure that with anyone else.

Maybe Elizabeth is one of those few people who can simply accept her husband as he is. Her love doesn't change when circumstances change, it's constant.   

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On 1/17/2018 at 4:41 PM, Milburn Stone said:

It's easy for us to judge Phillip. I find myself in sympathy with those who are in sympathy with him. This is what he was saying: "Seriously? SERIOUSLY??!? I want just this one little sliver of discretion over the fate of my son--a sliver you promised me, by the way--and which is important to me to my very core, the thing that as a father matters most to me in the entire world, to see my son turn out well--and you can't even give me THAT???"

Charles suffered for it, of that there is no doubt. But that doesn't undercut the validity of Phillip's need.

Also, Philip had gone to school; remember that Elizabeth hadn't, and felt that lack..  He was in a better position to know what a proper education should consist of.  Charles is better educated than his mother, no?

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On 1/21/2018 at 3:38 PM, Roseanna said:

Continueing:

Although Philip's whining is boring, he is the only person who speaks honestly what he thinks to Elizabeth and, if he disagrees with her, argues directly as he did in this episode. Remember how Lascelles has manipulated her in S1 (she couldn't even chose the private secretary she liked best).

Also, when he showed admiration for her standing against Uncle David, she knew that it was genuine. She can never be sure that with anyone else.

Maybe Elizabeth is one of those few people who can simply accept her husband as he is. Her love doesn't change when circumstances change, it's constant.   

All of these are excellent points and thanks for sharing them. I think it will make him easier to watch. 

I know this is “The Crown” and not “QE II” but i often wish they’d shared a bit more of their backstory as a couple. How did he go from a crush to someone she was determined to marry?  

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5 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

Charles is better educated than his mother, no?

Diana was better educated than the queen, if you're going by a pure metric of having attended school. The queen might have some giant gaps in knowledge, but given her exposure to so many different people and topics, and her diligence in doing her boxes, I'd say she's gotten a priceless education on the job.

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5 hours ago, latetotheparty said:

All of these are excellent points and thanks for sharing them. I think it will make him easier to watch. 

I know this is “The Crown” and not “QE II” but i often wish they’d shared a bit more of their backstory as a couple. How did he go from a crush to someone she was determined to marry?  

I really wish they had done that. Watching two seasons of Philip whining, complaining and blaming his wife. It would have been nice to see them come together as a couple. Flashbacks to why Philip liked her and married her. Why Elizabeth fell in love with him in the past. When she told Philip towards the end of season one. How her life would have been easier had she married someone else but all she ever loved was him. It would have been nice to see why. Its not too often someone develops a crush at thirteen only to go on and marry that person later. What attracted her about Philip? What attracted Philip to Elizabeth?    

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7 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

Diana was better educated than the queen, if you're going by a pure metric of having attended school. The queen might have some giant gaps in knowledge, but given her exposure to so many different people and topics, and her diligence in doing her boxes, I'd say she's gotten a priceless education on the job.

Do you mean Charles?  

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2 hours ago, Roseanna said:

Do you mean Charles?  

The poster is saying that Diana attended schools and Queen Elizabeth didn't, so "technically" that would make the former better educated than the latter. Attending a school, of course, isn't a guarantee of actually learning much, nor is it the whole measure of a person's knowledge. 

I hadn't thought of the angle that Philip went to school and Elizabeth didn't, so why not let him pick out the schools for the kids--that makes sense.

As for why Elizabeth chose Philip, IMO she had a schoolgirl crush that deepened through the years and didn't meet another guy she ended up liking better instead. As they dated, he didn't do anything to ruin the attraction, from her perspective. In terms of their romance, I think the more interesting story on her side of things is how her parents and the courtiers were convinced.

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13 hours ago, Dejana said:

I hadn't thought of the angle that Philip went to school and Elizabeth didn't, so why not let him pick out the schools for the kids--that makes sense.

Plus, Elizabeth had been a girl and had had only a sister but no brother, so she probably thought that Philip naturally knew more about boys  as he had been a boy himself.      

18 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

Its not too often someone develops a crush at thirteen only to go on and marry that person later.   

My sister-in-law was 13 when she came to the same class as my brother who was 14. They began to date and have now been married for decades.

Of course Elizabeth and Philip's case was different as there was an age gap. But one thing might have been common: a new, different person seems probably more attractive and exciting than people one has known since childhood.

Also, British aristocratic boys were propably a little shy to the heir of the throne. It was perhaps only Philip who, because of his royal status and family connections, lacked overdue reverence and that seemed new and refreshing to Elizabeth. 

Porchy seems to be rather like a brother or a best friend to her: they had common interest in horses but there was no spark.

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1 minute ago, Roseanna said:

Of course Elizabeth and Philip's case was different as there was an age gap. But one thing might have been common: a new, different person seems probably more attractive and exciting than people one has known since childhood.

I expect, also, that since she was 13 in 1939, which is when WWII started for them, there was also the heightened emotion of the times, and the fact that Philip went off to war. Very romantic, especially at that age. But also, younger Philip still had a future ahead that he imagined would suit him, so he had no reason to be that whiny.

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4 hours ago, Dejana said:

The poster is saying that Diana attended schools and Queen Elizabeth didn't, so "technically" that would make the former better educated than the latter. Attending a school, of course, isn't a guarantee of actually learning much, nor is it the whole measure of a person's knowledge. 

Exactly; thanks for putting words in my mouth—er, post, @Dejana. ;-)

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I think Elizabeth and Philip exchanged letters during the War years. In the Netflix documentary, it says that the King was unhappy because he wasn't prepared for "the family" - the four of them - to be broken up so soon. (He seems to have been a lovely man who adored his daughters.)

But E & P were well-suited for each other in terms of rank - as fellow royals, they hit the jackpot with each other. He couldn't have done better than E, and she couldn't have done better unless there were other spare princes (handsome, educated, intelligent)  floating around Europe. 

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On 1/22/2018 at 10:40 PM, dubbel zout said:

Diana was better educated than the queen, if you're going by a pure metric of having attended school. The queen might have some giant gaps in knowledge, but given her exposure to so many different people and topics, and her diligence in doing her boxes, I'd say she's gotten a priceless education on the job.

Diana went to school, but didn't do well there. Back then in the UK, there were two sets of exams: Ordinary ("O") levels, and Advanced ("A") levels. O levels were usually taken around age 15 or 16 , and covered standard knowledge of a subject, while the A levels, taken around age 18, were (and are) way more difficult and demonstrated higher knowledge of a subject. Charles took and passed two A-level exams and I think five or six O levels. Diana did not take any A-level exams. That was because she flunked all of her O-level exams - TWICE. 

It's common for students not to take A-level exams, but most pass at least a few O levels. To fail every single O level twice is spectacularly bad; "shocking", as people in the UK would say. The queen never got a chance to take any coursework; while she doesn't seem to be a great intellectual, she works diligently at everything she is asked to do and seems like the type who would be focused and organized enough to pass O-level exams. I think, given the opportunity, she would have done reasonably well at school.

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44 minutes ago, AnnaBaptist said:

The queen never got a chance to take any coursework; while she doesn't seem to be a great intellectual, she works diligently at everything she is asked to do and seems like the type who would be focused and organized enough to pass O-level exams. I think, given the opportunity, she would have done reasonably well at school.

I've known more than one person who wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed, but was diligent and ended up on honor rolls. Some people aren't quick, but as the saying goes (sort of), sometimes slow and steady wins the race.

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10 hours ago, AnnaBaptist said:

Diana went to school, but didn't do well there. Back then in the UK, there were two sets of exams: Ordinary ("O") levels, and Advanced ("A") levels. O levels were usually taken around age 15 or 16 , and covered standard knowledge of a subject, while the A levels, taken around age 18, were (and are) way more difficult and demonstrated higher knowledge of a subject. Charles took and passed two A-level exams and I think five or six O levels. Diana did not take any A-level exams. That was because she flunked all of her O-level exams - TWICE. 

It's common for students not to take A-level exams, but most pass at least a few O levels. To fail every single O level twice is spectacularly bad; "shocking", as people in the UK would say. The queen never got a chance to take any coursework; while she doesn't seem to be a great intellectual, she works diligently at everything she is asked to do and seems like the type who would be focused and organized enough to pass O-level exams. I think, given the opportunity, she would have done reasonably well at school.

Someone please tell me that I'm not the only American, with little to no knowledge of the British education system, who immediately read this and thought, "Ah, O.W.L.s and N.E.W.T.s!"

I appreciate the information given here.

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1 hour ago, ProudMary said:

Someone please tell me that I'm not the only American, with little to no knowledge of the British education system, who immediately read this and thought, "Ah, O.W.L.s and N.E.W.T.s!"

I appreciate the information given here.

As much as I love Harry Potter, my first thought was "wasn't Diana a teacher once upon a time? How did that happen if she couldn't even get her basic schooling qualifications?"

But yes, thank you for the connection to HP! Now I will forever think of O-levels as OWLs and A-levels as NEWTs.

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8 minutes ago, secnarf said:

my first thought was "wasn't Diana a teacher once upon a time? How did that happen if she couldn't even get her basic schooling qualifications?"

Kindergarten assistant, and, daughter of an Earl: the school was called Young England (and still is).

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5 hours ago, Pallas said:

Kindergarten assistant, and, daughter of an Earl: the school was called Young England (and still is).

She may not have had the sharpest mind, but I think over the years she had a kind of emotional intelligence - starting around the time she, shockingly for the time, touched a person with AIDS. Had she lived, I think she would have made a substantial mark on the world. 

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10 hours ago, CousinAmy said:

Had she lived, I think she would have made a substantial mark on the world. 

I would argue Diana has made a substantial mark on the world. If she's remembered for nothing more than shaking hands with a patient who had AIDS, that's gigantic.

One thing many people have said about her is that her empathy was always exceptional, even as a young girl. That empathy worked for and against her at different times, but it was undeniable.

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On 1/31/2018 at 7:12 PM, ProudMary said:

Someone please tell me that I'm not the only American, with little to no knowledge of the British education system, who immediately read this and thought, "Ah, O.W.L.s and N.E.W.T.s!"

I appreciate the information given here.

I have no doubt whatsoever that J.K. Rowling was spoofing the British exams system with O.W.L.s and N.E.W.T.s, much as she was spoofing the old (pre-1971) currency with that ridiculously arbitrary setup of 29 knuts to a sickle, and 17 sickels to a galleon.

(Now can someone please explain "forms" to this American? Is a form what we call a grade? Do you guys have 12 forms as we have 12 grades?)

 

On 2/1/2018 at 2:45 AM, CousinAmy said:

She may not have had the sharpest mind, but I think over the years she had a kind of emotional intelligence - starting around the time she, shockingly for the time, touched a person with AIDS. Had she lived, I think she would have made a substantial mark on the world. 

Oh, I absolutely agree. Test scores aside (poor kid, some people just don't test well), Diana was no dummy. She had a native intelligence and charisma that really resonated with people, in person and through media, which is why the reaction to her death was so spectacular.

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On ‎1‎.‎2‎.‎2018 at 8:13 PM, dubbel zout said:

I would argue Diana has made a substantial mark on the world. If she's remembered for nothing more than shaking hands with a patient who had AIDS, that's gigantic.

One thing many people have said about her is that her empathy was always exceptional, even as a young girl. That empathy worked for and against her at different times, but it was undeniable.

That might be true, but in the context in The Crown the question is whether Diana acted for her own interests (like the Duke of Windsor and Margaret) or those of the royal house(like George VI and Elizabeth).

It's not only that the individual fame can rise and fall, but that if the status of the royal house is based solely on popularity, it's no more than celebreties.

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21 hours ago, CeeBeeGee said:

I have no doubt whatsoever that J.K. Rowling was spoofing the British exams system with O.W.L.s and N.E.W.T.s

True - "O-Level" in the British system designates "Ordinary Level," just as "O.W.L." designates "Ordinary Wizarding Level."

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God this episode. I felt for Philip, and that funeral march was just impressive in its execution. 

Anyhoo. I didn't care for the Charles bits and I'm sure a big part of his personality was formed at the Child Labour school, and that it must have affected him far more then he'll ever publicly let on.

Distinctly, Philip had already had a rough life and to him it must have been a refuge whereas to Charles (who had led a sheltered existence) it was a prison. I liked that opposition in the stories.

Sort of relates to this episode: Last September, I was in Prague and took one of those city walking tours. The guide was telling us about Prague being used as a good backdrop for movies and tv shows. Also, that they'd shot a movie (his words) involving Nazi flags and a section of town was decorated with them, the people of Prague were vaguely unimpressed etc...

Now I do know that part of the upcoming 4th season of 12 Monkeys was shot there and I saw Nazi flag crap in their teaser trailer. After watching this episode though, I wonder.

Edited by Aliferously
the words "funeral march" and "breathtaking" in the same sentence didn't sound quite right.
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On December 15, 2017 at 12:21 PM, Roseanna said:

Philip did't imply but spoke directly: she had to decide if she wanted or keep her husband or not (overruling him would mean the latter). So it was a threat.  

Thinking anew, why did Elizabeth even speak with Charles's former rector as the children's school was Philip's business? I guess it was only for drama's sake.

I thought Philip was very menacing in that scene about Charles' schooling.  Awful.

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(edited)
On 4/7/2018 at 2:59 PM, Thumper said:

I thought Philip was very menacing in that scene about Charles' schooling.  Awful.

I rewatched this episode and I noticed for the first time that when Phillip was putting that awful sweater on Charles for his school sitting on the window ledge was his teddy bear.  A sly reminder that he is just a child forcing to grow up so quickly...=(

 

Or the fact that Phillip didn't even know that Uncle Dickie was writing to Charles while his mother did....little tidbits like that that I missed the first time around speaks volumes

Edited by Dirtybubble
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(edited)
On 12/10/2017 at 1:21 AM, pivot said:

Not a fan of adult Charles but felt terrible for him as he has such shitty parents. Charles wasn't a great parent by any means either but he was better than the Queen and her douche husband. 

I actually think Charles is and has always been a great father. I liked Diana and feel for Diana and all she went through very deeply, but I’ve been following Charles since years before he married her. He’s a good man with a tortured soul. Even more than Diana, my heart bleeds for him. He met and fell in love with Camilla in 1970, and prior to and after finding  his true love, the only person who understood him, he had extreme pressure to marry the appropriate person. To have to finally marry someone’s he didn’t love is very sad. I think the press adored Diana so much that they made Charles into the villain. When in fact he was a victim too. They both were.

I can’t blame Diana for many of her actions, except for her manipulating the press to make it look like she was the good parent and he was a bad parent. He was as close to his kids as possible, and they adored him and still do. Remember that famous picture of Diana on the balcony running to embrace her kids? The big question was “where is Charles? Absentee father, etc.” then a couple years later a picture surfaces from the same time, same day, of him hugging the boys too. Naturally the press didn’t publish that at the time. How often did this happen?

I think after Diana’s death he became even closer to the kids because he tried to make up for their loss in any way he could. I believe Charles is a good man, vilified by the press for years. My heart goes out to all of them, Diana included. I just feel the most heartbreak for him because people don’t see his side.

Edited by MelodyK
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I think Charles is aware of the shortcomings of his upbringing, and has sincerely tried to break the cycle with his own children, especially after Diana's death. The boys do seem close to him. I never had much time for Charles before watching The Crown, but now I can see how horrible his schooling was and how it affected a sensitive boy like him. I too, think he is decent at heart, but like Philip his genes sometimes come out and betray him.  He seems to have a need to prove himself just like his father and aunt Margaret. 

1 hour ago, MelodyK said:

I think the press adored Diana so much that they made Charles into the villain. When in fact he was a victim too. They both were.

This is a very good point you raise. I hadn't realised they had censored pictures of Charles being affectionate towards his sons. Doesn't surprise me tho, media always, always have an agenda. Anyway both William and Harry have turned out ok it seems, and that can't all be down to Diana. 

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I just read a book about the ideals for family in the 19th century. It was told that children were sent from home at early age, to the school or visit relatives for a long time (the habit itself wasn't new). It wasn't even supposed that they should thrived bu to learn self-control and thus build a strong character which could help them to succeed in the world. It was considered to be real parental love.

Thus, it wasn't only Philip's personal qualities and experiences that made him behave towards Charles as he did. It was the ideals in which he was raised and which he knew had helped him and which he therefore thought to be best even for his eldest son. Thus it's not entirely justified to condemn Philip according to the new child care ideals of which he know nothing. 

I am not saying that Philip's methods didn't harm Charles but it's doubtful if Philip could have acted otherwise. All his adult life he had been an officer of navy where he was accustomed to the same dicipline for all, not to take to account people's different character.  

At least Philip was no monster like Patrick Melrose's father in Edward St Aubyn's novels. And Charles had also persons who took care of him.        

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Erm.

When Philip was a child his family had been exiled from Greece and existed on the charity of relatives.  Eventually his mother was committed to an asylum for schizophrenia, his four older sisters married German princes/grand dukes, and his father went to the French Riviera, supported, I recall, by a rich mistress.

Philip was principally brought up by his maternal grandmother (sister of the Tzarina), and by his uncle Louis (Mountbatten), who masterminded his upbringing with a view to maximum dynastic advantage.

Gordonstun was tough; he wanted Charles to be tough.

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One of the more frustrating aspects of "THE CROWN" was its portrayal of Prince Philip.  I don't think Peter Morgan, the showrunner, truly understood him.  Everyone talked about how Philip should have stopped complaining  about his boredom and support the Queen.  He has always supported her, whether he was complaining or not.  Even when he criticized her, he was supporting her.  But Philip had a very good reason to complain.  The Palace courtiers and the Queen Mother, who never wanted him to marry Elizabeth in the first place, did not want him to have any influence upon the Court.  I think their idea of Philip as consort was for him to sit on his ass most of the day, doing nothing - aside from acting as royal stud or escort to major events and state visits.  That's it.  From what I have read about Philip, those first four to five years of the Queen's reign were very frustrating for him.  It wasn't until after his 1956-57 tour that he started establishing his own style and role as consort.  He established the Duke of Edinburgh’s Award and the Commonwealth Study Conferences.  He joined the Queen’s Privy Council for both Britain and Canada.  He served as president of the National Playing Fields Association and The World Wildlife Fund.  He also served as Chancellor of the Universities of Edinburgh and Wales, while at the same time began engaging in more State Visits by himself, on behalf of the Crown.

But for some reason, the series never really established or hinted this.  Season One had established his earlier frustration at being prince consort, but didn't really follow through in the second season.  Instead, it continued to speculate on whether he cheated on the Queen or not.  What made this even more annoying is that the idea of him having an affair with a Soviet Union ballerina who was 11 years his senior is ludicrous.  Chances are they would not be hanging around in social circles and she would have been monitored by MI-5 during her tour of Britain.  As for his connection to the Promfumo Affair . . . like Princess Margaret and several other members of the Royal Family, Philip was a patient of Dr. Stephen Ward.  There has been no real evidence or anything of women being procured for him by Ward.  And yet, Morgan seemed to be stuck in this obsession over whether Philip had committed adultery or not.  That's it.

By the way, I think sending Charles to Eton would have been a bad idea.  I'm not saying that he should have went to Gordonstoun.  But I feel that Eton was a bad idea, considering that it was next door to Windsor Castle.  Charles would have benefited from an easy escape route if things got tough.  And Eton, like many other English public schools (private schools) could be rather tough, if not at the same level as Gordonstoun.  His worse problem was that none of the students were willing to befriend him, due to fear of being accused of sucking up to royalty.  And it was Princess Theodora, Margravine of Baden, who was responsible for placing Philip with Kurt Hahn, not Princess Cecile.

 

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That's true. Although was it just a coincidence: because he went to school in Britain that it was natural to him to fight for it? If he had stayed in Germany, maybe it would have been just as natural to fight for it. Or maybe he would have been retained as an enemy alien?

Around age 17 or 18, Philip made the choice to remain in England and join the Royal Navy.

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On ‎20‎.‎7‎.‎2018 at 9:25 PM, CTrent29 said:

One of the more frustrating aspects of "THE CROWN" was its portrayal of Prince Philip.  I don't think Peter Morgan, the showrunner, truly understood him.  Everyone talked about how Philip should have stopped complaining  about his boredom and support the Queen.  He has always supported her, whether he was complaining or not.  Even when he criticized her, he was supporting her.  But Philip had a very good reason to complain.  The Palace courtiers and the Queen Mother, who never wanted him to marry Elizabeth in the first place, did not want him to have any influence upon the Court.  I think their idea of Philip as consort was for him to sit on his ass most of the day, doing nothing - aside from acting as royal stud or escort to major events and state visits.  

Of course Philip had ample cause to be dissatisfied with his role. But constant complaining doesn't help a person at all - instead it makes people detest him.  

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I wonder if his sister's baby was expelled from her body after her death.  Instead of her delivering on the plane and then crashing.  Would they be able to determine that back then? Or bother?

 

I assumed the father blaming Philip for her death was just him being a dick.  I never got the impression Netflix was trying to blame Philip.  I found quite a few articles about this and I am surprised. 

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18 minutes ago, IDreamofJoaquin said:

I wonder if his sister's baby was expelled from her body after her death.  Instead of her delivering on the plane and then crashing.  Would they be able to determine that back then? Or bother?

I assumed the father blaming Philip for her death was just him being a dick.  I never got the impression Netflix was trying to blame Philip.  I found quite a few articles about this and I am surprised. 

I wondered that about the baby, but then I just didn't want to think about it too deeply, it was disturbing enough as is.

I'm surprised too, I can't imagine why anyone would blame Philip for her death (other than his awful father).

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I seem to recall that it was generally believed that she'd gone into labor during a rough flight, and they attempted an emergency at Ostend in bad weather, due to which they crashed and all on board were killed.  The imaginings of Philip as he dreams walking through the wreckage seem to reflect the conclusions of whatever inquiries were held.  A contemporary newspaper article also seems to confirm this.

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1 hour ago, kassygreene said:

I seem to recall that it was generally believed that she'd gone into labor during a rough flight, and they attempted an emergency at Ostend in bad weather, due to which they crashed and all on board were killed.  The imaginings of Philip as he dreams walking through the wreckage seem to reflect the conclusions of whatever inquiries were held.  A contemporary newspaper article also seems to confirm this.

Thanks for the article. It doesn't, however, answer the question as to whether the baby was actually born during labor, or was expelled during the crash (either works in the reference to finding the body of the baby). I'm not sure they would have been able to tell in any case. Anyway, now I've thought way too much about that gruesome detail.

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