S02.E09: Paterfamilias

[doodlebug]

2 hours ago, Clanstarling said:

Thanks for the article. It doesn't, however, answer the question as to whether the baby was actually born during labor, or was expelled during the crash (either works in the reference to finding the body of the baby). I'm not sure they would have been able to tell in any case. Anyway, now I've thought way too much about that gruesome detail.

Well, the article does say that they diverted to land because the Archduchess was giving birth.  Since there were no survivors of the crash, unless the pilot had specifically radioed the tower that the baby had been born, there was really no way to know.  I would suspect that she gave birth before the crash if only because it would take a pretty significant abdominal injury to force a full term baby out of the womb separate from the mother's body.  That kind of force would seemingly have been enough that the bodies wouldn't have been intact enough to specifically identify the victims.

[kassygreene]

If the baby had been born, it would probably have been swaddled in something (which might not have survived the force of impact), and it almost certainly would have had the umbilical cut.

Frankly, any post-mortem reports are almost certainly unavailable, and official records could and did differ from reality when sparing the feelings of surviving family. 

[IDreamofJoaquin]

Either way very, very sad!!!  

[ae2]

It feels like the show is relying more on ex post facto messages to tell the story rather than finding a way to write a cohesive narrative. It's nice to be told that Charles finished 5 more years at the school and supposedly hated it afterward, but why are you simply telling us that instead of showing us the impact it had on his character? If it had none, then first I must question why you're telling us this story at all, and second, why bother even giving us the post-script?

The same holds true if the important character in the tale is Phillip rather than Charles.

There was no resolution in this episode and the addition of the post-script makes it seem like there never will be. We are left with 3 pivotal characters all teetering at the precipice of some personal revelation. So... what's the point?

[Roseanna]

20 hours ago, ae2 said:

It feels like the show is relying more on ex post facto messages to tell the story rather than finding a way to write a cohesive narrative. It's nice to be told that Charles finished 5 more years at the school and supposedly hated it afterward, but why are you simply telling us that instead of showing us the impact it had on his character? If it had none, then first I must question why you're telling us this story at all, and second, why bother even giving us the post-script?

The same holds true if the important character in the tale is Phillip rather than Charles.

There was no resolution in this episode and the addition of the post-script makes it seem like there never will be. We are left with 3 pivotal characters all teetering at the precipice of some personal revelation. So... what's the point?

I guess they are priming for later seasons the effects on Charles.

Now the point was the different nature of Philip and Charles and their relationship. Which will also continue.   

[jumper sage]

On 12/17/2017 at 12:32 PM, Roseanna said:

In addition she had no knowledge about little boys and Philip was a man. So naturally she believed that Philip knew best.

I think QE2 was madly in love and would do anything to pacify Philip.  You have that attitude and the legacy of not liking the next heir......oh dear.

[JudyObscure]

 I'm shocked to read that Prince Andrew and Prince Edward also went to Gordonstoun.  I wonder if, in the interest of school tradition, they were assigned that bed by the broken  window. Doesn't sleeping in the rain in Scotland  constitute a breach of child abuse laws? I kept thinking of how two of Charlotte Bronte's  sisters  died at boarding school before their father decided to let the other girls stay home.

I don't blame  Philip or Elizabeth because I think they really were doing what they thought was best for Charles, but I do think they might have learned better before the younger boys followed.

 The school years must be hell on the security men, standing in the rain and constantly holding their breath while their young charges do dangerous things.  I was just glad that the body guards, the palace servants and the nanny all seemed to love Charles.  Not that his parents didn't, but the others had the time and ability to show it.

[Jeeves]

22 minutes ago, JudyObscure said:

 I'm shocked to read that Prince Andrew and Prince Edward also went to Gordonstoun.  I wonder if, in the interest of school tradition, they were assigned that bed by the broken  window. Doesn't sleeping in the rain in Scotland  constitute a breach of child abuse laws? I kept thinking of how two of Charlotte Bronte's  sisters  died at boarding school before their father decided to let the other girls stay home.

I don't blame  Philip or Elizabeth because I think they really were doing what they thought was best for Charles, but I do think they might have learned better before the younger boys followed.

 The school years must be hell on the security men, standing in the rain and constantly holding their breath while their young charges do dangerous things.  I was just glad that the body guards, the palace servants and the nanny all seemed to love Charles.  Not that his parents didn't, but the others had the time and ability to show it.

Taking my response over to History Talk.

[chaifan]

I thought it was a bit hokey that the same window that was broken while Phillip was at Gordonstoun was still broken when Charles went there.  Seriously, what would that be like in the dead of winter?  The whole room would be freezing. 

When Charles came home and Elizabeth was watching from above, I thought it was the Queen Mother than he hugged, not a nanny.  Anyone know for sure? 

This was a sad episode, but I have to admit that while watching it I didn't think it was the best use of an hour's time for this series.  I personally didn't need an hour devoted to Phillip & Charles' struggles as school boys. 

[WatchrTina]

3 hours ago, chaifan said:

I thought it was a bit hokey that the same window that was broken while Phillip was at Gordonstoun was still broken when Charles went there. 

Ditto.  They have the boys do service projects all the time (Philip built the front gate single-handedly).  Surely at some point during the 20 years between Philip's and Charles' tenure someone would have been assigned to fix that window.

 

3 hours ago, chaifan said:

When Charles came home and Elizabeth was watching from above, I thought it was the Queen Mother than he hugged, not a nanny.  Anyone know for sure? 

I don't know for sure but I thought it was a servant -- perhaps his former tutor (who, presumably, is still teaching Anne) or his Nanny (or whoever it is who looks after Anne during the day.)

Edited January 31, 2019 by WatchrTina

[Bunnyette]

On 12/16/2017 at 1:46 PM, Calvada said:

I thought the Queen Mother was the recipient of Charles' anguish about the hell that was Gordonstoun.  I thought it odd they didn't show her, but instead Uncle Dickie.

An inaccuracy that bugs me - Charles and Anne (and I presume Andrew and Edward) did not call Philip Daddy.  They call him Papa.  If you watch the documentary about the Queen at 90, she is shown watching old family movies with Charles and constantly referring to Philip as Papa.

In that documentary, they show a woman Charles refers to as Aunt Tiny (or maybe Teeny?), who was one of Philip's sisters, probably in the mid 1950s.  Her son, Karl, was shown playing with a young Charles.  Karl appeared to be 16-20, somewhere in that age range, a blond kid who looked a lot like the actor playing the young Philip.  So it seems that the Royal Family had some interaction with Philip's family.  Didn't his mother spend her last years at Buckingham Palace?

She did and the Christmas after Cecile’s death, his father took Phillip to Rome.

[swanpride]

Honestly, based on the episode, I think BOTH were wrong. I don't think that Eton is a good place for, well, anyone, because it is too sheltered and upper class. Especially the heir to the throne would be better served in a school which offers a good education but also provides the opportunity to interact with somewhat "normal" people. The idea to send him at a place where he wouldn't be pampered quite so much is sound in my book. Except that the place which was picked fell more on the "abusive" side.

[andromeda331]

3 hours ago, swanpride said:

Honestly, based on the episode, I think BOTH were wrong. I don't think that Eton is a good place for, well, anyone, because it is too sheltered and upper class. Especially the heir to the throne would be better served in a school which offers a good education but also provides the opportunity to interact with somewhat "normal" people. The idea to send him at a place where he wouldn't be pampered quite so much is sound in my book. Except that the place which was picked fell more on the "abusive" side.

That would have been a much better idea. He probably would have been better off going to a more normal school and interacting with normal kids. But it could also be where Elizabeth's blinded by her own past. Its easy to see Philip since the episode's up front about it. But she was never given a proper educating despite being heir. Its easy to see why she'd go with Eton since its suppose to be the best and thinking that her son would end up with the best they could get it him. She doesn't want him to struggle like she had to and had to find a professor to fill in the gaps in her education.

Edited June 19, 2019 by andromeda331

[dubbel zout]

Eton had/has its own problems of bullying. I think it's just how boarding schools are. Things are likely better today, but there's no school anywhere that has zero problems.

And boarding schools in and of themselves are elitist, though of course there's a hierarchy. 

[PeterPirate]

On 9/6/2018 at 9:25 AM, Roseanna said:

I guess they are priming for later seasons the effects on Charles.

Now the point was the different nature of Philip and Charles and their relationship. Which will also continue.   

I think they are also setiing the table for some fireworks between Phillip and Diana.  Hilarity ensues.

[Umbelina]

When I'm rewatching my DVD's this is one episode I tend to skip over.

It's not that it isn't good, because obviously it is, and obviously it was true, and Charles was stuck there for five years and hated it the entire time.

Maybe because it was just sad all the way around? 

[dubbel zout]

5 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Charles was stuck there for five years and hated it the entire time.

We haven't gotten much about Charles yet, but it shows a certain strength of character that he did stick it out.

14 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

Maybe because it was just sad all the way around? 

It really is. It's hard to be too mad at Philip about how he raised his kids when you know how unsettled and tragic his own childhood was.

[Umbelina]

I don't think Charles had a choice.

[dubbel zout]

45 minutes ago, Umbelina said:

I don't think Charles had a choice.

Maybe not, but there were ways he could have rebelled that wouldn't necessarily have gone public. But given how much Charles wanted Philip's approval, maybe Charles wouldn't have pushed back. But he still sucked it up.

[Umbelina]

I think that would have made Phillip just double down on him staying there, but ...

Phillip wanted a manly child, and he thought that school would do that for him.  Very sad.

I couldn't stand it when he was getting soaked in that bed, in that climate.  Horrible, and then it got worse.

[andromeda331]

4 hours ago, Umbelina said:

I think that would have made Phillip just double down on him staying there, but ...

Phillip wanted a manly child, and he thought that school would do that for him.  Very sad.

I couldn't stand it when he was getting soaked in that bed, in that climate.  Horrible, and then it got worse.

That's exactly what he wanted and Charles wasn't it. Anne was that but not Charles. 

[Clanstarling]

17 hours ago, dubbel zout said:

We haven't gotten much about Charles yet, but it shows a certain strength of character that he did stick it out.

It really is. It's hard to be too mad at Philip about how he raised his kids when you know how unsettled and tragic his own childhood was.

For me, understanding is one thing. This show did make me understand his background, and I felt sorry for young Philip. But older, father Philip. Not so much. I can easily be pissed about the active decisions he made regarding his own children - especially some of the decisions which were not well-meant mistakes.

Edited June 25, 2019 by Clanstarling

[Ame]

On 1/19/2019 at 8:51 PM, JudyObscure said:

 I'm shocked to read that Prince Andrew and Prince Edward also went to Gordonstoun.  I wonder if, in the interest of school tradition, they were assigned that bed by the broken  window. Doesn't sleeping in the rain in Scotland  constitute a breach of child abuse laws? I kept thinking of how two of Charlotte Bronte's  sisters  died at boarding school before their father decided to let the other girls stay home.

I don't blame  Philip or Elizabeth because I think they really were doing what they thought was best for Charles, but I do think they might have learned better before the younger boys followed.

 The school years must be hell on the security men, standing in the rain and constantly holding their breath while their young charges do dangerous things.  I was just glad that the body guards, the palace servants and the nanny all seemed to love Charles.  Not that his parents didn't, but the others had the time and ability to show it.

Princess Anne also sent both her kids to Gordonstoun. I think the broken window thing was make up. 

Edited July 7, 2019 by Ame

[Umbelina]

On 7/7/2019 at 11:04 AM, Ame said:

Princess Anne also sent both her kids to Gordonstoun. I think the broken window thing was make up. 

I don't think the broken window was made up.

I remember reading a few articles that specifically mentioned that broken window back when I read reviews of this show.  Ditto the showers with no hot water, also true.

[RedbirdNelly]

On ‎12‎/‎17‎/‎2017 at 11:48 AM, SeanC said:

That Charles had a hard time at Gordonstoun is an historical fact, so this isn't per se a critique, but I find it weird that nobody at that school thought that befriending the future king might be a useful social chit.

I was wondering that too. I just assumed people would want to suck up to the future king--or that their parents would make it clear they should. So no bullying--at worst he'd get fake friends.

[RedbirdNelly]

On ‎1‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 6:12 PM, ProudMary said:

Someone please tell me that I'm not the only American, with little to no knowledge of the British education system, who immediately read this and thought, "Ah, O.W.L.s and N.E.W.T.s!"

I appreciate the information given here.

same here--I found myself thinking "oh please just start calling them OWLs!"

[Wordsworth]

Mr. Wordsworth puts this episode as his #1 on a list of "The Crown" favorites...not because he liked it, but because it gave him such a visceral emotional reaction.  I could tell it upset him.  He had to watch a couple of episodes of something funny just to improve his mood.

I think Philip got this idea that many fathers get, "Football made me the man I am today" or "The Army made me the man I am today" and decided that what was good for him was good for his son, without noticing that Charles wasn't him.  If Andrew and Edward did better at the school, it's because they were themselves and not Charles.

One thing I did want to point out since it's been brought up more than once:  why would kids at a boarding school pick on a prince, especially one that is a future king?  Catrine Clay's marvelous book, "King, Kaiser, Tsar" addresses that issue when relating the experiences of young George V and his older brother, Prince Eddy, when they were at sea as lads.  The boys were given little in the way of privilege over their lower-class shipmates.  The other boys took advantage of them, sneaking off ship to buy sweets and letting George & Eddy hold the bag when it came to paying for them.  They assumed that the princes had lots of money, not knowing that Edward VII and Alexandra didn't want their kids to be spoiled and so gave the princes only small amounts of pocket money.  Clay explains that the lower-class boys, far from seeing what the future might hold were they to become close friends of the future monarch, realized that they would never be allowed to bully a prince as adults so made sure to get in as much as they could with George and Eddy while they had the chance.

Likely, anyone who picked on Charles felt the same way, "I'm not going to be able to pick on the heir to the throne forever, right?"

I would also state my agreement to those who refuse to pass judgment on Philip because of the decisions of his relatives.  Few of us choose where we are sent to school or who our siblings marry, especially when these decisions are made when we are children.  Philip did not choose to attend school in Nazi Germany nor did he choose who his sisters decided to marry.  Those who want to attach the stain of Nazism on him because of the decisions of relatives made when he was a child are, in my opinion, unfairly making him guilty by association.   I bristled in the pilot when there were snide remarks made about his Nazi sisters.  All of us have relatives with different political beliefs than we have; would we want someone else to judge us by the opinions of a family member?   

I also agree with statements made on this thread about Philip perhaps blaming himself for his sister's death though it was not really his fault.  I didn't get the idea, though, that he was impatient with his sister's fear of flying...it seemed more to me that he was trying to calm her by gently reminding her that it was just air.  Far different was his admonition to Charles on the later flight.  I could have interpreted that incorrectly, though.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 27, 2020 by Wordsworth

[dubbel zout]

29 minutes ago, Wordsworth said:

I bristled in the pilot when there were snide remarks made about his Nazi sisters.  All of us have relatives with different political beliefs than we have; would we want someone else to judge us by the opinions of a family member?   

I'd argue that being married to a Nazi merits snide remarks. At the very least. 

[Wordsworth]

1 hour ago, dubbel zout said:

I'd argue that being married to a Nazi merits snide remarks. At the very least. 

To the person who chose to marry the Nazi, yes.  But my point is that Prince Philip has been labeled for decades as having Nazi sympathies based upon who his sisters chose to marry and where his father chose to send him to school, decisions that were made while he was a child and had no control over.  Would you want someone making snide remarks about you as a human being based upon who your adult siblings chose to marry while you were a child?  Prince Philip, despite his flaws, has shown no indication that he has/had Nazi sympathies, yet has had to dodge accusations of such for decades based on who his sisters chose to marry and on where his father sent him to school.  My point is that children do not choose where their schools are located or who their siblings decide to marry.  Neither did Prince Philip.   The snide comments in the pilot were about his worthiness to marry Elizabeth based on his family history.
 

[dubbel zout]

I don't think wondering about whether Philip had Nazi tendencies was misguided given who his sisters married. How do you know it's not a family philosophy? Snide comments are a cheap way to go, but it's a fact of life that people are judged on who their family is. Especially if you're marrying the heir to the throne.

And while Philip may not have Nazi sympathies, he hasn't exactly been the flag-waver for cultural sensitivity.

[Wordsworth]

In that case, he may well have stayed in Germany then and fought for the Reich.  While it is true that we don't know and that Philip has had Open Mouth, Insert Foot incidents in the past, I think the word Nazi is thrown around far too easily these days without any real understanding of what a Nazi actually was.

[Cheezwiz]

As much as Prince Phillip has made appallingly insensitive gaffes throughout his public life, I didn't get the sense that he was a Nazi sympathizer simply because of who his sisters married. They were quite a bit older than him, and it doesn't sound like he was ever particularly close to them.

As pointed out above by @Wordsworth, he made the choice to remain in Britain and wound up joining the British navy. I think if he subscribed to Nazism, he would have remained in Germany, and joined their military instead.

It should also be pointed out that his extraordinary mother Princess Alice sheltered and gave aid to Jewish refugees during the war. 

Was he a typical upper-class aristocratic racist twit? Most likely. Nazi? Probably not. His Uncle-in-law David on the other hand...

 

[formerlyfreedom]

Let's please take further discussion on Prince Phillip and his family history that's not directly related to this episode to the appropriate topic. Thank you.

[Spartan Girl]

Wow, Philip had a fucked-up family.

It’s amazing how you can feel sorry for someone as a child while at the same time disliking who they become as an adult. I’m referring to both Philip and Charles here. Philip clearly repeated his father’s mistakes. But it’s interesting to contrast how his younger self comforted Cecile on the plane with how harsh he was to Charles on the plane. Or even with how much better he was with little Anne. A clear message about the damage of toxic masculinity. Cecile and Anne were girls to be protected, but Charles needs to “toughen up.”

I did love the scenes with Charles uniform shopping with Cool Uncle Dickie, and him later showing up at the school with cookies.

[Roseanna]

On 5/28/2020 at 2:19 AM, Cheezwiz said:

As much as Prince Phillip has made appallingly insensitive gaffes throughout his public life, I didn't get the sense that he was a Nazi sympathizer simply because of who his sisters married. They were quite a bit older than him, and it doesn't sound like he was ever particularly close to them.

As pointed out above by @Wordsworth, he made the choice to remain in Britain and wound up joining the British navy. I think if he subscribed to Nazism, he would have remained in Germany, and joined their military instead.

It should also be pointed out that his extraordinary mother Princess Alice sheltered and gave aid to Jewish refugees during the war. 

Was he a typical upper-class aristocratic racist twit? Most likely. Nazi? Probably not. His Uncle-in-law David on the other hand...

 

I agree. Philip is at bottom a Conservative - all his zeal to "modernize the monarchy" was only meant to preserve it. Instead, Nazis were Radicals who wanted to subject all spheres of society (including private life) to their ideas. 

In addition, only in totalitarian societies a person is estimated (and often penalized) on the basis of his family members' opinions.  

On 2/25/2021 at 3:34 AM, Spartan Girl said:

But it’s interesting to contrast how his younger self comforted Cecile on the plane with how harsh he was to Charles on the plane. Or even with how much better he was with little Anne. A clear message about the damage of toxic masculinity. Cecile and Anne were girls to be protected, but Charles needs to “toughen up.”

Good points. But Anne didn't need to be protected - she had just the character that Philip would have loved in Charles.

[Roseanna]

Rewatching I began to wonder Philip's claim in giving the cup to the winner team that Gordonstoun teaches to put the community before the individual. 

What we earlier saw in Charles' case was just the opposite: he was continually bullied and in the composition his team left him behind. Yes, Charles was a lousy athlete who maybe shouldn't have taken part in the competition at all. But it's equally that but bullying is allowed in the school. Evidently it's even thought that it's a good upbringing method.

I just watched a Finnish reality program "Female soldiers" where the head of the reserve officer school says before the team march competition: "In the war, not the winner of this competition is needed but a team that brings all members to the finish." And when there is a member who has trouble with her ankle, her package and finally even her gun is carried by others. (Of course I realize it's an ideal that isn't always reality.)   

[Lonesome Rhodes]

What a tough episode to watch.  I found it wholly ironic that on the surface, Philip is cold-hearted and arrogant, but he actually was truly compassionate and showed vulnerability as never before to his son.  

I loved the scene at the awards assembly.  It had to be killing Philip that Charles had not returned, implying he had quit.  He was also made to endure great embarrassment in that community.  He put on a fantastic public face and was winning with those lads.   Well done, Prince.

Foy's choice to have involuntary darting of eyes as Philip showed an unbreakable backbone to her was brilliant.  That was most certainly the only moment with her husband I have seen where The Crown was not in charge.  She was genuinely frightened.  Philip had taken control, if only for those moments.  Fantastic acting.

The execution of the filming of the funeral march was breathtaking.  The Nazis were evil as can be and they sure knew how to design symbols and state/military uniforms.  Whoa.  There was one shot/perspective from a heightened camera position looking back towards the entrance to that plaza.  In it was a rank of gleaming troopers with those iconic helmets doing one heckuva imitation of Imperial Stormtroopers in black, instead of white.  The power and the menace of that whole sequence was mesmerizing and chilling.  Kudos to all who created it.

I was deeply touched as Philip was being incredibly patient and kind with Charles in the cockpit coming home.  Did he ever light into him as I am certain his gut wanted to do?  Nope.  His tone was one of understanding.  When he admitted that he, himself, struggled mightily, in much the same way Charles was, it was to me his greatest moment as a dad.  Unfortunately, the exigent circumstances meant that there was no shot that Charles could absorb his father's generous revelation of youthful weakness.  What could have been a wonderful bonding moment was lost forever when exasperation set in.  Tragic, imo.

So much has been written as to the best way to raise a boy into a man.  I believe boys must be significantly tested, if not broken, as military training does.  This is especially true for those who grow up in plenty.  It is in struggle that a lad discovers who he really is and that if he perseveres, he has what it takes to win.  A man must know that, imo.  Robert Bly wrote extensively about such testing through journey.  I believe he got it right, as did Philip.

How on earth could a Charles learn such lessons as an HRH in a palace environment?  Impossible, and Philip knew it.  Charles needed physical toughening and to learn how to largely fend for himself and Philip knew of a place that could happen in relative safety with a headmaster whom he knew and trusted utterly.   

I felt pity for the footman who came through the door and was severely rebuked for just doing his job.  Yikes.  We've not seen many such outbursts in a palace setting.  This gave that scene added power, imo.  Not much happened but a lot was said.   Good choice, Morgan.

 

[Bunnyette]

This episode was pure fiction.  Phillip was sent to live with his maternal grandmother at 8,then started at Cheam when he was 9 or 10.  Then went to Gordonstoun from there.  While close to his sisters, it was his grandmother who organized his education. He started in Germany but moved to Scotland when it’s headmaster was forced to leave Germany.  His father never blamed him for his sisters death.

[Fool to cry]

The recent news makes me really hope Gordonstoun really did end up strengthening Charles.