S03.E08: Crisis On Earth-X (4)

[jhlipton]

I had a thought about why Felicity's interruption of the WestAllen wedding caused so much kerfuffle ["Oh God", I hear you say, "not another one!" And "But Nazis!"]

1. The Nazi Crisis was over.  Our Big Damn Heroes had won, and it was Wrap-Up Time (sorry for speaking in caps...)

2.  It was the last scene, which makes it more important than, say. the Rory/Snart scene.

6 hours ago, TDT said:

Maybe it wouldve been better if,since Barry and Iris are now official,they introduce another female  character who turns out to be an evil speedster,and this causes a love triangle..

Bite your tongue!

[GHScorpiosRule]

10 hours ago, Mellowyellow said:

It made Barry look like an idiot. Oliver was awesome for arrowing his evil nazi gangbanger whereas Barry waffled around like usual. 

I agree they are probably trying to show that he's good or whatever but it doesn't make sense and just makes him look stupid.

That was one of my main gripes from this crossover. Let him kill Thawne and then bring him back again if you want to later. I'm sure they can think of some stupid random reason. It made Barry foolish for no good purpose. As someone who actually likes Barry I'm cross!

*putting on flak helmet and jacket*

First, I disagree that Barry looked like an idiot; nor do I think his letting Eobard go, made him look stupid. And when you get right down to it, Barry doesn't find it easy to kill. Not that I'm saying that Oliver does, but Oliver was put in a trial by fire for five fucking years. Tortured, forced to learn how to kill and survive. That's why he was able to kill his Doppelgänger.  It's an apples v. oranges argument for me.

In the heat of battle/war, I'm sure he has killed, but when you get right down to it, he's not a killer.*  I think I mentioned this in one of the other threads, maybe this one, up thread, but to me, Barry letting Reverse Flash go, was like Batman letting Joker go--and I think when Barry did let him go, with their parting words, basically that they would see each other again, to fight again. And I think I saw a look of surprised respect in Eobard's eyes before he took off.

What was a disconnect for me was why he was even working with the Nazis, since he wasn't Earth X version of Reverse Flash Eobard/Wells hybrid.

*Unashamed Barry apologist for now and forever.

[Sakura12]

I don't watch all four shows just Flash and Legends, and now just Legends because I just can't with the Flash anymore. I knew the gist of what was going with the other shows. I didn't mind this crossover I thought it was better than last years. However I'm glad it's over so I can watch a show that focus' on the characters I care about, the Legends. 

[johntfs]

50 minutes ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

What was a disconnect for me was why he was even working with the Nazis, since he wasn't Earth X version of Reverse Flash Eobard/Wells hybrid.

Because in Naziland he can pretty well do any damned thing he wants to, especially if he makes a case for it being good for the war effort.  When Wells speaks about the sound of metal cutting through bone, that's the voice of experience.

[Sakura12]

Where was Barry on Earth X, did he not exist? I suppose he never got his powers but since they used RF and he's obsessed with him he would've made a version of the Flash to mess around with.  I still think it should've been Evil Barry to complete the Evil trio. 

Edited November 30, 2017 by Sakura12

[catrox14]

5 minutes ago, Sakura12 said:

Where was Barry on Earth X, did he not exist? I suppose he never got his powers but since they used RF and he's obsessed with him he would've made a version of the Flash to mess around with.  I still think it should've been Evil Barry to complete the Evil trio. 

Yeah I don't really get why they didn't do Evil Barry. Other than an excuse to use Tom Cavanaugh

Could it be that He was supposed to be an older Barry himself?

[Aeryn13]

Quote

Because in Naziland he can pretty well do any damned thing he wants to, especially if he makes a case for it being good for the war effort.  When Wells speaks about the sound of metal cutting through bone, that's the voice of experience.

That`s what I actually found cartoonish about the character. Sure, he was the - hidden - Big Bad for Season 1 of Flash and by that standard he was evil, certainly ruthless, but he never came across like the "muhahaha, I love their screams when I torture them"-guy. He was villainous but not a deranged sadist.    

Quote

Yeah I don't really get why they didn't do Evil Barry. 

An evil Barry doppelganger right on the heels of Flash Season 3 might have been too soon. Hence, Eobard. But in that case, I would have prefered Earth X-Eobard. Not the Earth 1 version who, for reasons, has set up shop on the Nazi planet.  

[Miss Dee]

Honestly, I think it was because a) Tom Cavanaugh as Eobard was familiar and a treat for fans of that iteration, and b) we just saw an evil Barry as a Big Bad last year.

[phoenics]

15 hours ago, lemotomato said:

I think it's interesting you're blaming Olicity for taking the narrative away from Westallen, but not once have you considered that the real problem was ExOliver/Kara, who had more screentime together and focus than both canon couples. The show could have easily cut out the multiple scenes of two Nazis reaffirming their love for each other (because who the hell wanted to see that?) to give the weddings the time they deserved. 

I've been very clear that I thought the issue was poor writing.  Please stop twisting my words.

[phoenics]

14 hours ago, AudienceofOne said:

Barry let Thawne go because he, Barry, couldn't handle the idea of killing somebody. Considering the number of faceless Nazis mowed down by the team, this is possibly the most selfish act in the entire crossover. Thawne isn't somehow less culpable because he's not technically a Nazi and while I don't think murdering somebody is ever the answer, there was nothing Thawne did or said that justified him being spared over everyone else. Oliver, you'll notice, happily killed himself. I'm surprised there isn't an essay on that by somebody on here.

I remember how surprised I was seeing Alex shooting one of the Nazis in the head and blood splatter happened.

I do think that Barry was trying to hold himself to a higher standard - and because he has personal beef with RF he didn't want to become judge, jury and executioner.  When Oliver killed Fuhrer - Fuhrer was going for his bow to kill Oliver - so Oliver ended him.  Honestly in every fight they've had, pretty sure Oliver meant to kill him, so.

But in the end, I think the discrepancy is due to poor writing just like most of the other issues with the crossover.

[phoenics]

13 hours ago, statsgirl said:

I think Barry didn't kill Thawne because the shows keep pushing Good!Barry as opposed to Bad/Immoral!Oliver.   The Flash writers especially keep writing the contrast between Barry who is good and saves Central City, and Oliver who kills people.  I don't think Joe has ever said a good word about Oliver in all four seasons.

So Oliver was fine with killing his Nazi self but Barry was too good and kind-hearted to kill Thawne.

The Flash writers spent a whole season basically punishing Barry for his flashpoint and previous time travel shenanigans.  Finally.  In S1 and 2, I'd agree with you, but a lot of that stopped in S3 and S4 they made him "reborn".

The Flash vs GA thing is a rip off of the very well known dark to light relationship of Batman and Superman - Batman is seen as darker and grittier who will kill (well the dark knight version), while superman is a boy scout.  

I just don't put much credence into the flash vs arrow thing and reject the shows' feeble attempts to make them either good or bad.  Things really aren't black and white like that.

5 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Some tweaking of the episodes might have improved things. Sorry if this is too fan-fictiony, but I think it smooths over a lot of the issues that the eps had IMO.

Supergirl: Alex and Kara are talking much as we saw and preparing to go to the wedding. Suddenly Barry appears. "Hey, we were just about to head to Earth-1" But it's Barry-X, and he's brought Metallo along to ambush Kara. They take her back to Earth-X. Alex checks in with the DEO, and they don't have anything. She goes to Earth-1 to enlist the help of Barry and the gang. We learn that Barry-X is the Fuhrer and married to Overgirl and that he has kidnapped her to save Overgirl from Kryptonite poisoning (like others have said, solar poisoning makes no sense). Guardian-X attempts to get intel and tells the Freedom Fighters that the Earth X Nazis are preparing to strike at other worlds once Overgirl is restored to full strength, but gets taken down by Ollie-X. A strike force of Barry, Alex, Ollie, and some of the Legends go to Earth 1, beat up a bunch of Nazis and superNazis but end up getting captured mostly. Ollie is their only hope.

Arrow: Ollie is trying to work a plan, meets the Freedom Fighters and gets more backstory about Earth-X. He tries the undercover thing, just as before. With the Freedom Fighters' help, he frees the heroes from the work camp and they then rescue Supergirl as Wells-X is in the middle of his procedure. But Overgirl is in play. Barry-X is furious that these weaker beings have beaten him and plans revenge. The invasion of other worlds will start with Earth-1 ASAP.

Flash: All the pre-wedding and wedding stuff happens. The Nazis now have a reason to invade with a bunch of mooks, and attack Barry's wedding first. Barry-X mocks his Earth-1 doppelganger for marrying a schwartze instead of the Aryan perfection that is Overgirl. Superhero fight., much as in Part I, only this time our heroes aren't gawping at the notion of the evil doppelgangers. Waves of these Nazis keep coming and coming, and things look bleak for our heroes until...

Legends: The Legends go to Earth-X to change its history from one where the Nazis won the war to where the U.S. won. They figure out how to get to Earth X and go back in time while Supergirl, Flash and others continue to fight a losing battle on Earth-1. Supergirl, Flash and others get killed in the battle. They do Legendy things, get attacked by Waverider-X, and change history so that Earth-X becomes de-Nazified. Martin gets martyred in the process. With Earth-X de-Nazified, Barry and Iris get the uninterrupted ceremony they deserve, and Ollie and Felicity get inspired to get married as well.  

Wow this is really good.

[phoenics]

2 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

*putting on flak helmet and jacket*

First, I disagree that Barry looked like an idiot; nor do I think his letting Eobard go, made him look stupid. And when you get right down to it, Barry doesn't find it easy to kill. Not that I'm saying that Oliver does, but Oliver was put in a trial by fire for five fucking years. Tortured, forced to learn how to kill and survive. That's why he was able to kill his Doppelgänger.  It's an apples v. oranges argument for me.

In the heat of battle/war, I'm sure he has killed, but when you get right down to it, he's not a killer.*  I think I mentioned this in one of the other threads, maybe this one, up thread, but to me, Barry letting Reverse Flash go, was like Batman letting Joker go--and I think when Barry did let him go, with their parting words, basically that they would see each other again, to fight again. And I think I saw a look of surprised respect in Eobard's eyes before he took off.

What was a disconnect for me was why he was even working with the Nazis, since he wasn't Earth X version of Reverse Flash Eobard/Wells hybrid.

*Unashamed Barry apologist for now and forever.

This is a good point too.

But - why couldn't Barry have locked him up?

I do think Barry doesn't kill because he doesn't want to become Zoom or worse - like Savitar.  That's fair - he doesn't have to kill.  Did Barry kill any Nazis?  I wasn't sure if he did.

45 minutes ago, catrox14 said:

Yeah I don't really get why they didn't do Evil Barry. Other than an excuse to use Tom Cavanaugh

Could it be that He was supposed to be an older Barry himself?

Maybe GG was busy - or the writers were using the crossover to give Supergirl/Arrow leads more to do?  The whole point of these crossovers from a business perspective, imo, is to increase ratings for the shows with lower ratings... just guessing.  I wondered when this all happened why they went with evilOliver over evilBarry.  Maybe because they just did that on Flash with Savitar?

Last year, there was significant focus on Barry because of Flashpoint.  This year, the crossover definitely focused more on characters from the other three shows, with the Westallen wedding stuff serving as pretty wallpaper to facilitate the other stories (one of my pet peeves from the crossover but I digress).

[johntfs]

13 minutes ago, phoenics said:

But - why couldn't Barry have locked him up?

Because TV.  Really because in that moment, Thawne was willing to let Barry kill him and take the "victory" of Barry being a murderer (or at least executioner).  He wasn't willing to be captured.  He also a genius from the far future who has recently had the resources of a worldwide evil empire behind him.  Figure he has plenty of countermeasures to defeat/escape capture.  So, if Barry captures him and bundles him into a police van, Thawne will break loose, murder the officers there and escape.

Beyond that, as I've mentioned before, Barry can't help but have some level of mixed emotions where Wells/Thawne is concerned.  Yes, he murdered Barry's mother, but he's also the person who turn Barry into the Flash and mentored him through that first year.  He's also the person who gave Star Labs to Barry, allowing him to continue and expand his work as a superhero.

14 minutes ago, phoenics said:

Did Barry kill any Nazis?  I wasn't sure if he did.

There was a bit in the church where it looked like he pushed a Nazi firing a sub-machine gun in such a way that he shot another Nazi, but honestly I doubt it.  Barry is the type that won't kill unless he feels he absolutely has to and given the advantage he has with super-speed, that's almost never going to happen.

[Bridget]

2 hours ago, benteen said:

Good God, yes.

Russell Tovey was fantastic as The Ray.  Very charismatic in the role.

Am I the only one who absolutely lost their mind (in a good way!) when Snart & The Ray were onscreen together? I thought that their chemistry was palpable. I even thought "hmm...I wonder if they're dating in real life" because Michael Scofield never looked at Sara Tancredi like THAT! Their 1:1 scenes, especially when they kissed, despite the brevity, were written so much better than any of the couples in the *Superlegendflarrowverse and I could feel their love through my screen, especially in their last scene together when Wentworth was telling The Ray he loved him and would be back.

FYI: haven't had much coffee today, so if there's another couple who is written better in the 'verse than Leo & The Ray, my apologies.

*I just made up that portmanteau for the post - is there an official one that I'm simply not aware of? Maybe even simply, the 'Verse? I know Kara & friends are on a different Earth, but I still think they belong in the team  name. I have yet to discover a name that includes all four shows, but if one exists, would someone be kind enough to share the link, page or source?

I love that Berlanti has LGBTQ characters and couples on his shows. I'm a straight female public school teacher (grades 6-12, depends on the year) and sadly, I still see my openly gay/transgender students struggling with life. One reason, that has been shared with me by my students who identify as LGBTQ, is that they themselves are not as widely accepted by their peers, other teachers, parents or friends (even in SoCal) as one would think. I'm not suggesting that watching TV will "comfort anyone", but kudos to whoever opted to continue to create characters that represent more of the world's demographics.

If these shows can continue to create all types of characters that represent the real people of this world, write storylines with authenticity and cast amazing actors, they will not only continue to create awareness and acceptance for parents & family members of those who identify as LGBTQ (or parents who have younger kids who might  later "come out"), but they will also provide a platform to educate audiences and exemplify that these strong, badass characters of all races, genders, religions and sexual orientations aren't only on TV. They can serve as models for people on how to conduct themsdlves. Trust me, my 10th graders last year had to be taught "please" and "thank you."  I couldn't make that one up if I tried.

People just like Felicity, Snart, Barry, Nate, Sara, Ray, Wynn, and Cisco (along with the rest of the crew) sit next to us every day on planes and trains. They care for our pets and educate our students from pre-school to grade 12. They put out fires, save people from car accidents, and serve us our meals in restaurants. They pour us our drinks, fix our cars and cut our hair.They're our neighbors, colleagues, friends, family members, and anyone other human being with a beating heart.

Many people would do well to remember their fellow man a bit more than they normally do.

[Sakura12]

While I think Sense8 has the best representation of LGBTQ characters. I do appreciate that these shows have LGBTQ characters, if they let WM go with his version then we have a pansexual man with Leo, a gay man with The Ray, a gay female with Alex and a bisexual female with Sara in the Super FLArrowverse. 

Edited November 30, 2017 by Sakura12

[KirkB]

I get they needed an evil speedster to balance out Barry. But instead of using Thawne, again, especially since they're already re-reusing Damien Dark, you know what I would have done? To really mess with Barry's head? Have him fight a speedster Iris.

[Lantern7]

12 hours ago, jhlipton said:

"Embiggen!" has been around a lot longer than that!

I know, it was coined on The Simpsons, because Jedidiah Springfield's grasp of the English language wasn't that great. But that's been Kamala's thing. Also: what version of Atom can grow and shrink body parts? DC-wise, that's more an Elasti-Girl thing.

[Princess Lucky]

Re: Thawne, I have to say, I'm glad he wasn't played by Matt Letscher. I somehow have come to love his version of the RF because of his practically endearing portrayal on Legends last season (his episode with Ray alone, with them bonding, that was enough to earn my love), whereas I see Tom Cavanagh's version of Thawne as a horrendous villain (probably because he killed Cisco). So I'm glad Cavanagh played the Nazi ally, if that makes sense. I can keep hating "that" Thawne and still like the "other" Thawne who was hilarious and even likeable at times. Maybe it's because The Flash is more black&white whereas Legends is based around a group of flawed characters, and sometimes the villains get that same treatment. Either way, though, we didn't get Evil Barry because Savitar was a total dud last season, and they weren't about to repeat that mess.

2 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I don't watch all four shows just Flash and Legends, and now just Legends because I just can't with the Flash anymore. I knew the gist of what was going with the other shows. I didn't mind this crossover I thought it was better than last years. However I'm glad it's over so I can watch a show that focus' on the characters I care about, the Legends. 

I agree. Hell, I only watch Legends and I liked this crossover. I'm not totally unfamiliar with the other shows, of course. I watched S1 of Supergirl (but then Callista left and so did I), I watched the first couple of seasons of Arrow (but then I got sick of it), and I used to watch The Flash until this season (I dropped it and i don't miss it). That's why I liked the "one movie" format. It meant I could follow along and watch the whole thing. I only watched the Legends episode of last year's crossover (which I barely even remember) so it was just a wasted episode for me. This season, I was able to watch this "special" event without having to worry too much about the other shows or even the other characters. Again, I wish we had seen more of the Legends (Amaya, Zari, Ray and Nate in particular, since we got plenty of the others, and I'm glad for that) but I enjoyed this just fine. I'd prefer it if they stuck with this format from now on.

That said, I definitely can't wait to get back to the Legends. Again, I'm familiar with the other characters, and I have my favorites and the ones I dislike (which made certain parts of this crossover a pain to trudge through), but watching this last episode I was struck by my own sense of joy when the Legends showed up. I found myself cheering at their cheesy one-liners and their legitimate badassery and my own surprise that they didn't actually screw anything up this time. None of the other characters from the other shows gave me that happy feeling. I just love my Legends.

[tennisgurl]

I totally feel like Nate planned that "Who needs an army when you have legends" line as the team was flying over, and was just so pumped to say something so cool. 

Nate: "So, when I open the cells, I`m gonna say "Who needs heroes when you have legends!"

Ray: "Thats SO AWESOME!" *high five*

Zari: "You are both ridiculous...you should substitute army for heroes, it sounds cooler."

Nate: "YES!" 

13 hours ago, jhlipton said:

Edward Kitsis and Adam Horowitz probably consider Eva Braun "bold and audacious".

Oh God, you know they do. We know how much they love mass murderers and rapists! I know people complain about how everyone worships Felicity on Arrow, and how much the creators let her get away with everything, but they dont know. THEY DONT KNOW! They dont know the Regina Effect. 

[Miles]

Ugh couldn't they have killed Stein in some half way decent way if they really had to kill him. (Retirement wasn't brutal enough, I guess?) This basically went like this: "Let's split up and sever our nearly indistructable form into two mere mortals, while a bunch of Nazis are fireing at us, so I can perform a task, after a task you permformed only 5 meters away, because we can't perform these tasks simultaniously anyway." "Great idea!"

The correct response would have been: "Are you crazy?! If we stay together this will take a maximum of 5 seconds longer and we'll be save!".

Edited November 30, 2017 by Miles

[Princess Lucky]

3 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

I totally feel like Nate planned that "Who needs an army when you have legends" line as the team was flying over, and was just so pumped to say something so cool. 

Nate: "So, when I open the cells, I`m gonna say "Who needs heroes when you have legends!"

Ray: "Thats SO AWESOME!" *high five*

Zari: "You are both ridiculous...you should substitute army for heroes, it sounds cooler."

Nate: "YES!"

Oh my God, YES. That's what I'm talking about.

And that's why I love the Legends. I was looking at the promo pics for the next episode, and I swear I was more entertained by that handfull of still pictures than I was while watching the crossover (and I liked the crossover!). They just bring me such joy.

Edited November 30, 2017 by Princess Lucky

[Chicago Redshirt]

2 hours ago, KirkB said:

I get they needed an evil speedster to balance out Barry. But instead of using Thawne, again, especially since they're already re-reusing Damien Dark, you know what I would have done? To really mess with Barry's head? Have him fight a speedster Iris.

Probably couldn't sell an African-American Nazi. Not so good for racial purity. I could see a speedster version of Caitlin (Flash-Freeze?) or Nora or something possibly being workable.

[HunterHunted]

14 hours ago, jhlipton said:

"Embiggen!" has been around a lot longer than that!

"A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man."

--Jebediah Springfield

Edna Krabappel: I had never heard the word embiggens until I moved to Springfield. 

Ms. Hoover: I don't know why; it’s a perfectly cromulent word.

Actually, the first use of embiggens was in an 1884 edition of the British journal Notes and Queries: A Medium of Intercommunication for Literary Men, General Readers, Etc. by C. A. Ward, in the sentence "but the people magnified them, to make great or embiggen, if we may invent an English parallel as ugly. After all, use is nearly everything." The most famous use was the 1996 Simpson's episode "Lisa the Iconoclast."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisa_the_Iconoclast?wprov=sfla1

[statsgirl]

11 minutes ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Probably couldn't sell an African-American Nazi. Not so good for racial purity. I could see a speedster version of Caitlin (Flash-Freeze?) or Nora or something possibly being workable.

Maybe.  But Thawne wasn't a Nazi, he was someone working with them and they thought they were using him.  Both EvilOliver and Overgirl were giving him orders and cutting him down when he argued with them.  So he was outside the Nazi party itself.  It might have been more problematic having an African-American in the role but I think they could have done it because they thought she was their tool.

[Sakura12]

They were ordering him around but he still joined the Nazi party and was a white male. I don't think they'd accept anyone that was not white into their inner group. If they didn't go with Nazi and just made them evil versions of the heroes they could've done that. It could've been like Doomworld on Legends when it was a world run villains and Sara and Amaya worked for the villains. They could've just made it a mirror world where most of the heroes were bad and the bad guys were good. 

Edited November 30, 2017 by Sakura12

[GHScorpiosRule]

Oh, hey there @Princess Lucky! {waving} Too bad you gave up Arrow, cuz this season they have EVUHL FINCH!!!

[Trini]

16 hours ago, ItCouldBeWorse said:

I think it's kind of weird that people care so much which show each specific event happened on, or which episodes were light-hearted or moody.  I get that the weddings were a long time coming, but....   Didn't all four episodes have the same introduction?  I watched them as if they were just 4 parts of a mini-series.

It's fine if you watched the whole thing in order; I think this format worked well for keeping things cohesive this year. It's a problem (or going to be a problem) for the casual viewers who only watch one out of the four shows. And for the DVDs and and future binge-watchers. Especially when major milestone events for characters from one show happen on a different show.

The next episode of each show will have a recap, I guess; but it's not ideal.
 

10 hours ago, darkestboy said:

Some characters were a little shortchanged (Wally for example) but other than that, this was an excellent crossover and I can't wait to see how they top this next year, 10/10

TPTB always want to top themselves, and I'm want to see how they top this, too! We can probably rule out alternate universes or aliens.
 

9 hours ago, DearEvette said:

I haven't weighed in on the Barry not killing Thawne thing.  I understand the philosophy behind having Barry not kill him.  He's Barry he isn't an in-your-face killer.  So I get it.

But on the other hand, I hate Thawne so much.  Like, a LOT.  I was so happy when Sara let Black Flash have him.  I was thrilled when he dissolved into bits and his stupid face was so surprised.  So Barry not killing him bums me out.  It is also a huge missed opportunity.  This whole season Barry's been about closure.  He's finally at peace about his mother's death.  So getting rid of Thawne once and for all would have been the capper on that.  It would have been real closure. I hate that the writers didn't give either Barry or us the audience the credit to understand that getting rid of Thawne wouldn't have been some terrible blight on Barry's character.

They made a big deal of killing him off last season on Legends; he just didn't need to come back. I'm good with Barry not killing, though.

Edited December 1, 2017 by Trini

[phoenics]

1 hour ago, statsgirl said:

Maybe.  But Thawne wasn't a Nazi, he was someone working with them and they thought they were using him.  Both EvilOliver and Overgirl were giving him orders and cutting him down when he argued with them.  So he was outside the Nazi party itself.  It might have been more problematic having an African-American in the role but I think they could have done it because they thought she was their tool.

Having an African American in the role would water down the Nazis (more than they already were) and be worse than problematic imo.  It would make them look "inclusive" and create a mess, completely contradicting the actual history of the Nazis as race-eliminating miscenegists who believed they were superior to every other race of people.  You cannot take that out and have a fair depiction of Nazis.  It would make them more into "anyone can be one as long as they are strong" which wasn't their thing.  If they were going to do that, then don't use Nazis.  You can't take out the racist part and still have Nazis.

I feel triggered at the thought actually.

As it is, these Nazis only barely scratched the surface and kept using "weak" when what Nazis would have said was "genetically inferior" due to race.  And having an evil Iris speedster as an actual Nazi just doesn't make sense and would bring up so many problematic racial issues I cannot even begin to parse them out.  I would be beyond livid if they wrote that.

I liked someone else's idea of just having an evil mirror world - but I kinda think the show was making a statement given the current political climate.

Edited December 1, 2017 by phoenics

[RedVitC]

Haven't read all 8 (!) pages, so sorry if I repeat points!

I'm working my way back, starting with my comments on the last episode. lol. I'd probably rank this episode 2nd of the 4 eps (1st being the first crossover episode, Supergirl). But I'm not sure if that isn't entirely because of the last part of the episode. 

I thought the weddings were beautiful. Sure there was an interruption, which was kind of shocking at first (I knew the double wedding was coming, just that particular interruption was unexpected), but I can't bring myself to get upset at it. I just can't. I just thought it all was so sweet, and the 4 of them kissing, Diggle being happy with his hands in the air, it was all so cute. And very welcome emotionally. Barry and Iris' vows were beautiful. I haven't made it a secret how much I love WestAllen, so I was looking forward to their vows and they didn't disappoint. I teared a few times during this crossover, and two of those were: during Iris' walk down the aisle and during Barry and Iris' vows, specifically when Iris' voice broke when she said she was happy, excited and honored to be Barry's wife. (the other moments I teared up had to do with Stein, but more on that later).

Anyway, the ending was beautiful and that's what I'm sticking with. Congrats to all the WestAllen and Olicity fans :)

 

Other things in this episode, 

Stein :(, I'd already been spoiled by those leaks a while back so I knew it was coming, but it was still hard. And then that scene where Jax has to tell Clerissa and Lily :(

The big battle scene was good, but I don't actually know if I think it was the best one of this crossover. The ending of the battle felt a bit...like it needed a little something more. At one point I was like, wait, the battle's over? And what happened to the soldiers from Earth X, were they sent back or imprisoned?

What's with Barry letting Thawne go? While I do like that Thawne is back because he's Barry's biggest foe, but having him work with/for nazis? (and what was his goal? he's always out for himself so what was he trying to accomplish, why was it so important to him that Earth 1 was conquered?).

Why was it a good idea to have Iris walk through the facility alone to close ??the time vault, I don't remember what?? while there were still soldiers walking around? While the evil people were still there and fighting? Why was it so important that that door be closed? I get that they wanted to have the moment that followed and have it be just Felicity and Kara, but they could have come up with something better.

Speaking of that moment, I'm glad they gave Felicity a moment to say something and take a stand. As a Jewish character she needed a voice in this. And I think her romance/romantic journey having a central plot in this crossover story made sense to me. A strong relationship of a Jewish woman getting focus during a storyline where Nazis attack as a sort of defiance of those attackers. idk I'm not saying it correctly,not sure how to say it.

I don't know what they were going for with Evil Oliver an Evil Kara being together. When she said she'd make sure he'd have no choice but to choose duty over her I thought they were setting up a sort of The Mummy 2 situation.

Spoiler

In that movie you have the good couple and the evil couple. And both couples love each other. but when it comes down to it, the girl from the good couple risks her life to save her husband, but the girl from the evil couple runs away and tries to save herself

 

But that ended up going nowhere. I still wish they hadn't chosen to give nazi villains faces of our heroes. As for evil Barry, I was glad we didn't also see a nazi with Barry's face. Maybe it was too close to the Savitar arc. This crossover must take place after the animated series since Overgirl and Dark Arrow (?) died in the crossover even though they were there in the promo for the animated series. So maybe something happened to Earth X Barry and Thawne took his place (since Grant did voice a character in the promo)

 

I have to go for now, so probably more later.

Edited December 1, 2017 by RedVitC

[mac123x]

That was pretty enjoyable bot WOW were the special effects shoddy, especially the final showdown between Supergirls.  Laughably bad, like a 90s era console game bad. 

[jhlipton]

9 hours ago, GHScorpiosRule said:

Barry letting Reverse Flash go, was like Batman letting Joker go

We had discussions about this in the Gotham forum, and I was one of several who argued that Batman is a fool for NOT killing the Joker, but letting him go so he can murder more people.

4 hours ago, tennisgurl said:

We know how much they love mass murderers and rapists! I know people complain about how everyone worships Felicity on Arrow, and how much the creators let her get away with everything, but they dont know. THEY DONT KNOW! They dont know the Regina Effect. 

They just DON'T KNOW!!!

[KirkB]

3 hours ago, Chicago Redshirt said:

Probably couldn't sell an African-American Nazi. Not so good for racial purity.

Yeah, I realized that a few minutes after I wrote it. I was thinking more about the showrunners wanting to mess with the audience and Barry, but in hindsight there is no way Nazi's would allow someone like Iris to have that kind of power if they could help it. I doubt they could even stand working alongside her even if they did intend to kill her when it was over.

[Lugal]

1 minute ago, KirkB said:

Yeah, I realized that a few minutes after I wrote it. I was thinking more about the showrunners wanting to mess with the audience and Barry, but in hindsight there is no way Nazi's would allow someone like Iris to have that kind of power if they could help it. I doubt they could even stand working alongside her even if they did intend to kill her when it was over.

NaziLance said to Sara that he had a daughter like her, a flower of the Aryan race but he killed her because she loved men and women. Even Overgirl said that Supergirl was the pinnacle of the Aryan ideal, so they definitely would not have accepted anyone like Iris.

Personally, I love the poetic justice that Zari (if they make her Iranian like Tala Ashe is) would have a better claim to being Aryan than anyone else.

[AudienceofOne]

5 minutes ago, Lugal said:

Personally, I love the poetic justice that Zari (if they make her Iranian like Tala Ashe is) would have a better claim to being Aryan than anyone else.

I personally would have liked somebody to point out that if you're looking for Aryans, you're better off looking in India.

[Perfect Xero]

I think I missed when they explained why Supergirl X was sick/exploded during the big fight at the end, can someone fill me in?

[KirkB]

2 minutes ago, Perfect Xero said:

I think I missed when they explained why Supergirl X was sick/exploded during the big fight at the end, can someone fill me in?

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I believe they said Nazi Kara's cells were oversaturated with solar energy, somehow, and it basically caused her to explode like an oversized battery.

Edited December 1, 2017 by KirkB

[call me ishmael]

I think Barry was dumb in not figuring out some way to confine Thawne.  But I'm relieved he didn't kill him.  This way we are spared months of angsty Barry dealing with the implications of choosing to kill.  It would make Bruce Wayne on Gotham seem like a calm and collected person.

[legaleagle53]

8 hours ago, Bridget said:

People just like Felicity, Snart, Barry, Nate, Sara, Ray, Wynn, and Cisco (along with the rest of the crew) sit next to us every day on planes and trains. They care for our pets and educate our students from pre-school to grade 12. They put out fires, save people from car accidents, and serve us our meals in restaurants. They pour us our drinks, fix our cars and cut our hair.They're our neighbors, colleagues, friends, family members, and anyone other human being with a beating heart.

I get what you're saying in general, but Felicity, Barry, Nate, Winn, and Cisco aren't gay or even bisexual. I'm not sure why you included them in the context of LGBT issues.

[ottoDbusdriver]

1 hour ago, KirkB said:

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I believe they said Nazi Kara's cells were oversaturated with solar energy, somehow, and it basically caused her to explode like an oversized battery.

I'm still not sure exactly how a heart transplant would have fixed Supergirl-X's problem -- because even if they did complete the operation, every part of her body BUT her heart would still be saturated with solar radiation.

Edited December 1, 2017 by ottoDbusdriver

[Jacks-Son]

Being honest here, and I know that others feel very differently about the Crossover episodes, but this was the best fucking crossover EVER!  This shit was awesome!! The Legends' episode  was everything we expected. Stein's death was shattering and I felt saddened by the loss of a fictional character. Sure, everyone knew that the Heroes would win in the end, but the execution was beautiful to behold. The only complaint I have was that the aftermath was a bit abbreviated and could have been longer, but they did what they could within an hours time. I waited for this and hoped it would meet my expectations, but IMHO, they knocked this crossover out of the park. It just doesn't get any better than this.

[johntfs]

8 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

I'm still not sure exactly how a heart transplant would have fixed Suerpgirl-X's problem -- because even if they did complete the operation, every part of her body BUT her heart would still be saturated with solar radiation.

It's probably best to assume that Overgirl would occasionally drop into Nazi Kryptonian and that the Nazi Kryptonian word for "liver"and/or "kidneys" is "hart." 

[KirkB]

10 minutes ago, ottoDbusdriver said:

I'm still not sure exactly how a heart transplant would have fixed Suerpgirl-X's problem -- because even if they did complete the operation, every part of her body BUT her heart would still be saturated with solar radiation.

 

Just now, johntfs said:

It's probably best to assume that Overgirl would occasionally drop into Nazi Kryptonian and that the Nazi Kryptonian word for "liver"and/or "kidneys" is "hart." 

The only way I can see this whole thing making even a lick of sense is if a Kryptonian's heart is where all the solar radiation they absorb is stored, in which case they are essentially swapping out an overloaded battery for a new one before it explodes.

Now, if bad Oliver had instead said their wanted to put bad Kara's brain in good Kara's body to save her the whole storyline might have been a bit more logical, at least from a comic book perspective.

[legaleagle53]

8 minutes ago, johntfs said:

It's probably best to assume that Overgirl would occasionally drop into Nazi Kryptonian and that the Nazi Kryptonian word for "liver"and/or "kidneys" is "hart." 

Which is also German for "hard" or "tough."  I did notice that there were some signs in German on Earth-X (or Erde-X, as it was actually called in one scene.  I thought the use of its German name was a nice touch).

[johntfs]

59 minutes ago, KirkB said:

 

The only way I can see this whole thing making even a lick of sense is if a Kryptonian's heart is where all the solar radiation they absorb is stored, in which case they are essentially swapping out an overloaded battery for a new one before it explodes.

Now, if bad Oliver had instead said their wanted to put bad Kara's brain in good Kara's body to save her the whole storyline might have been a bit more logical, at least from a comic book perspective.

Figure brain transplants are the stuff of silly 1950s B films and liver/kidney transplants aren't fatal enough.  Fuck it, presumably the heart of Kyrptonians do something else aside from simply pushing the blood through the body which is all hearts do for humans.

[VCRTracking]

I like the nice touch of Kara and Ollie being too weirded out by their Nazi counterparts being married so they just go for the fistbump instead of a hug!

[Starfish35]

6 minutes ago, VCRTracking said:

I like the nice touch of Kara and Ollie being too weirded out by their Nazi counterparts being married so they just go for the fistbump instead of a hug!

Haha yes I noticed that too.  Awkward! :)

[kismet]

16 hours ago, Sakura12 said:

I think for an actor a big death scene is a better way to go out then just walking away. They want to actually act for their last scene.  

Usually I would agree for the most part. But they set up all these red herring plotlines about Stein trying to return to his family. I thought for once I might actually get a happy ending. If their intention was to kill him from the outset of the season, I wish they had never wasted my time with setting up the other plot lines.

I knew I would lose Stein/VG, I just thought I would have it be for the Legends and not some over bloated Xover. And I think he deserved to have everyone there for the funeral not just a few random members of Flarrowverse.

[Sakura12]

That's the typical tv trope. character gets killed when they were this close to retirement. I meant more VG would want to do a big death scene as an actor over just walking away happy.  He would want to show off his acting chops, and did he ever. I actually didn't start getting teary eyed until they showed the team and his family's reactions

7 hours ago, kismet said:

I knew I would lose Stein/VG, I just thought I would have it be for the Legends and not some over bloated Xover. And I think he deserved to have everyone there for the funeral not just a few random members of Flarrowverse.

Who wasn't there for the funeral? The Legends were all there, his wife, daughter and grandson were there, Team Flash was there (since they did know him too). That's pretty much all his family, friends and team members.  Then they showed the ones that were closest to him putting the dirt on his casket, his wife, Jax, Sara, Barry and Caitlin. 

Edited December 1, 2017 by Sakura12

[johntfs]

10 hours ago, kismet said:

I knew I would lose Stein/VG, I just thought I would have it be for the Legends and not some over bloated Xover.

Stein was a Jewish man who was mortally wounded saving his friends and family from actual Third Reich fucking Nazis.  Then he died so that his "adopted" son, Jax, could live.  That's about as heroically awesome a death as one could wish to have.

[Jack Kerouac]

On 11/28/2017 at 10:09 PM, cambridgeguy said:

It's a good thing those Nazis were too dumb to realize that the entire point of having a gun is not needing to walk right up to your enemies.

Thank you. That must have happened dozens of times throughout the four shows. The unpowered heroes would be dead ten times over if someone remembered to shoot their guns. And it's ESPECIALLY egregious considering some of the heroes were shooting their guns. All it would have taken is ONE Nazi to stand twenty feet back and spray-and-pray and fourty per cent of the characters are dead.

They need to find a better way to explain why people don't just shoot unpowered heroes.