S03.E09: The Doldrums

[Athena]

Quote

Claire and Jamie leave Scotland, sailing to the West Indies on an urgent quest. But when the superstitious crew looks for someone to blame after a string of bad luck, rescue comes from an unlikely source.

Reminder: This is the No Book Talk topic. No discussion of the books is allowed including saying "in the books..." Book readers are discouraged from posting and liking in this thread. Posts may be removed without warning.

[ElectricBoogaloo]

As someone who gets seasick easily, the only one of Claire's suggestions that would have even remotely worked was ginger tea. Going inside or sleeping in a hammock would never work for me.

Willoughby's story broke my heart.

[NeenerNeener]

I love that they've changed the scenes and the music in the opening credits again to match where the story goes next. Only 4 more episodes left this season, though. It doesn't seem like enough to cover all the quick shots in the new credits.

[ganesh]

Tonight on Outlander: BLACK SAILS! 

I loved Black Sails. The show was nuts. So they're going to do that here for a while? *pushes all chips in* 

So the show first was about the race against Collodeon. Now it's going to be completely bonkers with ships and pirates? I mean, Jamie and Claire basically said at the start of the show, "huh, Jenny and Ian don't know that their son was kidnapped by pirates and we fooled them." Good work there. Convenient. 

15 hours ago, NeenerNeener said:

I love that they've changed the scenes and the music in the opening credits again to match where the story goes next.

This is one of the few shows that I always watch the opening. I sing the song to my dog: "sing me a song of a cat in a tree, oh would that cat have chased there by me". I was very interested in the new scenes in the opener. 

Honestly, the ships looked so gorgeous. I loved how the Chinese guy knew the wind was coming and just opined long enough. Everyone was so rapt with his monologue. 

I think this is the first episode of the season that I actually liked. 

[ElectricBoogaloo]

5 hours ago, ganesh said:

Jamie and Claire basically said at the start of the show, "huh, Jenny and Ian don't know that their son was kidnapped by pirates and we fooled them."

It was such a throwaway line so of course I was like uhhh, so where exactly do they think their kid is?" Last they knew, Jamie had him swimming out to an island to fetch stuff out of a treasure chest. I really want to know what Jamie said to explain the fact that their son never came home and oh, by the way, now he and Claire are going to France - without paying of Leghair off before leaving either.

"Oh, hello there, what's for supper? Oh, youngeen? Well, your son was so excited by the gold and jewels on the island that he decided we should go to France. Claire and I are leaving in a few days but Ian is, uh, booking us passage, yeah, that's it. No, he's not coming back to say goodbye to you or the rest of the family. Don't worry, you'll see him in a few months. I'll send him your love. Now what are we eating?"

I just can't see Jenny letting Ian run off to France without seeing him before he leaves, ESPECIALLY since he just got back from running away the last time. As soon as Jamie went back to Lallybroch without Ian, she would have grilled him nonstop about where the hell her son went.

[morgan]

Toward the end of First Wife, Jenny and Ian gave permission  for Jamie and Claire to  take young Ian off to the coast to the island for the treasure and then on to France to have a bit of parent-sanctioned adventure while they had Jarod help liquidate the treasure.  There was never a plan to return to Lallybroch before heading on (the island is off a remote part of Scotland, not near Lallybroch)  so they assumed he would be gone for quite a while.  

Edited November 13, 2017 by morgan

[terrymct]

Yes, of course, Our Plucky Heroine is desired by everyone and is the only one who can save the day.   

As usual, the secondary characters are much more interesting than either Claire or Jamie.  Mr Willoughby should be the star of his own show.  Start in China and follow the story he told on the ship, then his experiences in Europe and the Americas.  I would watch every second of that show.  I'd also like to see more about the Captain.  He with just a comparatively modest amount of screen time is fascinating.  He's balancing the ship's mission, what's right, and what is bizarre but practical in the culture of a ship.  It's the same way I felt about Dougal and Colum and the traditions and realities they were balancing.  I would have liked more about them, as well.  Any of them is more interesting than Claire or Jamie.  By far.

I was really afraid that the super secret "supplies" from Lollybroch would be Loaghaire.  Her daughter is just slightly better than Loaghaire in that Claire has a chance of winning her over, I guess.  Still, it would have been better to leave that whole stupid "OMG, Loaghaire is Jamie's wife!" storyline back on the shore in Scotland.

[Juliegirlj]

The episode was a remaking of Master and Commander- which is a movie I enjoy, but, come on....

i am not feeling the love between Jamie and Claire and as a whole, am not loving this season. 

[terrymct]

9 minutes ago, Juliegirlj said:

The episode was a remaking of Master and Commander- which is a movie I enjoy, but, come on....

i am not feeling the love between Jamie and Claire and as a whole, am not loving this season. 

 

I was thinking the same thing.  It feels like this season is a straight up romance novel story rather than a good drama that happens to be centered around a romance.

[Auj]

Juliegirlj, I am with you. I am afraid I am going to be an Outlander casualty.

I have seen somewhere else that other fans of the series dropped out in the third season. I am just rapidly loosing interest for lots of reasons. I think it has a lot to do with being so crazy about the first season and the Highlanders and now all that is gone. I just can not seem to get interested in where the series is going. I enjoyed the first part of this season, but I notice as soon as Scotland is gone, that is when my interest fades. 

And you know, I think I also dislike the way Claire is being written. Is it just me? She seems really bitchy or acting superior. Jamie seems very immature and irresponsible. I do not like it when I start disliking the lead characters. Jamie seemed more responsible in the first season to me.‘

Edited November 13, 2017 by Auj
Misspelled a word.

[TaurusRose]

I don’t have much to say about this episode. There were some nice moments, but Marseli (sp?) annoyed me, I’m tired of Claire’s “situations” and I have no interest in life at sea. I wasn’t into Black Sails (I won’t even watch that for Rupert Penry-Jones and I think he’s kind of hot) because I don’t like pirates or stories set on the open seas, so having Outlander gleefully going there isn’t hitting the right notes with me. I’m digging Willoughby though. Too right about skanky whores turning up their noses at him.

Edited November 13, 2017 by taurusrose

[FnkyChkn34]

28 minutes ago, taurusrose said:

I don’t have much to say about this episode. There were some nice moments, but Marseli (sp?) annoyed me, I’m tired of Claire’s “situations” and I have no interest in life at sea. I wasn’t into Black Sails (I won’t even watch that for Rupert Penry-Jones and I think he’s kind of hot) because I don’t like pirates or stories set on the open seas, so having Outlander gleefully going there isn’t hitting the right notes with me. I’m digging Willoughby though. Too right about skanky whores turning up their noses at him.

You didn't miss anything with Black Sails, IMO.  I watched it just for Tom Hopper (smokin' hot) and realized I got to within 2-3 episodes of the end of the entire series, but just can't bring myself to finish it.

[Jadzia]

On 11/12/2017 at 8:37 AM, NeenerNeener said:

I love that they've changed the scenes and the music in the opening credits again to match where the story goes next. 

I really miss the original music - it such a dramatic crescendo in the middle of it that has been missing from the other versions.

I am already bored with Pirates of the Caribbean Outlander. I hope this part of the story doesn't last very long.

[RulerofallIsurvey]

Well, so much for thinking Marsali had a shred of sympathy for Claire last week.  Egads, she's as bad as her mother.  And why is Claire, who's always been so outspoken, suddenly letting a whiny, spoiled brat call her a whore without saying anything back?  Time to put that girl in her place, Claire.  How about a 'if you think I'm a whore, let me tell you about your mother when she was your age...'   Bet Marsali would change her tune then.

I don't get the whole 'Claire tore apart our family' bit either.  I think that's way over the top.  I thought Jamie and Laoghaire had only been married two years and lived apart more than half of them?  That's not really enough time, imo, for Marsali, at her age to form some lasting parent/child bond with her second step-dad.  Give me a break. 

And Fergus - oh Fergus.  For the life of me, I can't see what Fergus sees in Marsali.  He knows Claire.  He remembers her from before.  And he just stands there while his 'wife' or fiancee called his surrogate mother a whore, and then offers a measly 'you shouldn't talk about Milady like that'.  I guess we know who's the boss in that relationship.  Fergus, grow a pair.  Or ask Claire for one of hers.  Once she finds them, that is. 

Jamie, let the brat be 'spoiled'.  She ain't your kid. 

The rest?  Oh, they're on a ship and Jamie pukes a lot.  It was nice seeing Jared again. 

[Juliegirlj]

French lothario Fergus has been with plenty of women. He is adorable and loyal, so it is too far a leap of faith to believe he would love Marsali. Booo-sacrifice the character for a stupid plot line. 

[tennisgurl]

Poor Jaime is just having a seriously crappy time of it. His nephew is kidnapped, cant stand on a ship without puking, his adopted son is marrying his bitchy step daughter, his buddy almost gets thrown off the boat, and now he has to go fight pirates or something. 

This episode REALLY makes me want to go back and watch Black Sails again. That show was so freaking awesome. Anyway, I thought it was a decent episode, but I like boats so that helps. 

Wow, Marseli really is a bunny brewer off the old block isn't she? Why does Fergus even like her, doesn't he have other options for women? I do like seeing Jaime in Dad mode, you can almost hear him saying "Damn it Fergus, I will drag your French ass back to Scotland if you dont stop this! Dont think I wont turn this boat around!". 

Claire was being pretty unnecessarily hostile to the captain this week wasn't she? I mean, she was more justified later when the crew was about to make a guy walk the plank, but why was she giving him shit earlier? Yeah its great that shes a 20th century woman of science, but she knows how people are about their cultures and traditions, so why be so judgmental? At that point it wasn't hurting anyone, so who cares? 

[taanja]

On 11/13/2017 at 2:12 PM, FnkyChkn34 said:

You didn't miss anything with Black Sails, IMO.  I watched it just for Tom Hopper (smokin' hot) and realized I got to within 2-3 episodes of the end of the entire series, but just can't bring myself to finish it.

OMG! Are you my twin? LOL I stopped watching Black Sails when they killed Eleanor and never finished the final few eps. and now I will never re-watch that series.

Anyway... yeah. I am losing interest in Outlander too. I fell in love with the Scotland part and the trying to stop of the battle of Culloden but now? I find the 20 year separation contrived and a bit tedious to be honest. It turned me off in the books and it is turning me off in the series. Claire and Jamie don't bug me as characters -- I just feel a disconnect now that the show isn't centered in the 18th century Scotland.

I don't know? 

[FnkyChkn34]

10 minutes ago, taanja said:

OMG! Are you my twin? LOL I stopped watching Black Sails when they killed Eleanor and never finished the final few eps. and now I will never re-watch that series.

Anyway... yeah. I am losing interest in Outlander too. I fell in love with the Scotland part and the trying to stop of the battle of Culloden but now? I find the 20 year separation contrived and a bit tedious to be honest. It turned me off in the books and it is turning me off in the series. Claire and Jamie don't bug me as characters -- I just feel a disconnect now that the show isn't centered in the 18th century Scotland.

I don't know? 

That would be about where I stopped too.  Not that I minded killing her off, because she was annoying, but it seems that was where the writers stopped caring as well.  Everything in the last season was just so disjointed that I was hardly following anymore and don't even care to finish it.  And also, not enough Tom Hopper. ;-)

I'm still enjoying Outlander a lot though.  But I hear ya on the 20 year separation...

[BitterApple]

On 11/14/2017 at 5:23 PM, tennisgurl said:

PYeah its great that shes a 20th century woman of science, but she knows how people are about their cultures and traditions, so why be so judgmental? At that point it wasn't hurting anyone, so who cares? 

I agree. Just rub the damn horseshoe, Claire. Seriously, what skin is it off her back if a bunch of poor, illiterate sailors have a few harmless traditions? There's moments where I like her and moments where I think, God, you're such an asshole. 

Edited November 17, 2017 by BitterApple

[Auj]

BitterApple, I think it is just the way Claire is being written. She wasn’t snotty like that in Season 1. Claire has often mouthed off and  gotten herself in trouble. But she was kind and compassionate and that was the first thing Jamie saw in her.  I certainly agree with your assessment of her.  Why not smile and rub the horseshoe? Play the game. I expect Gellis would have done so before she went nuts and  killed her farty husband. I just can not get into this Outlander Pirates at all.   Have they got Sam Heughan in some kind of wig? Looks weird. Can he not just have dyed red shorter hair? Where’s the harm in that? Sam’s hair is short now and looks nice. Anyway, I just wanna say to the Producer and author: Stop ruining Outlander!

[nara]

Late to the party, but apparently I'm the only one who enjoyed it!

Some thoughts:

1.  I thought it was an interesting commentary on balancing your convictions (e.g., unscientific things are foolish) with respecting local customs and traditions.  Is touching the horseshoe a harmless nod to the sailors' superstition or a betrayal of your ideals?  Personally, I would have touched it without a fuss,.  However, where do you draw the line?  It might be a different place for different people.  Like Claire, I've traveled a lot in my life, so I'm surprised that she's not more willing to go along with such things.

2.  Willoughby's speech was the best of the season IMO.  What an excellent ode to women, loss, and loneliness.  Well delivered too, and I was moved  (and a little afraid he would jump).  The way he tossed the sheets to the wind was well done too.  It was so poetic that I didn't realize at first that he was stalling and throwing the papers to show the wind had started up again. Probably the only part of the episode I will rewatch.  Now I want to go to the other thread to see if it was in the books.

3.  The Jonah hunt was interesting too.  Witch trials were over, but they found another way to do the same thing.  "plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose" .  I do think it was a missed opportunity to explain to Marsali that  her mother had previously been involved in the witch trial.

4.  With 2 women in the middle of all those men, I was expecting it to get rapey.  Glad that didn't happen.

5.  Good to see that  Jamie  is bad at something--sailing.  Did not need to see him actually vomit.  LOVED the acupuncture!  Someone other than Claire with healing powers!

6.  I wish we'd see the handfasting ceremony --> I'm assuming this was part of Scottish culture back then.  I do enjoy these peeks into the culture of that era.

7.  How old is Marsali supposed to be?  She looks older than a teenager.. They really did a terrific job casting someone who looks like Laoghaire.

8.  I want Fergus to have a bigger role with a true arc of his own.

9.  They could turn that English ship footage into a pro-vaxx PSA!  I am glad that Claire wanted to help.  Her desire to help people is her best instinct.  I was not expecting the English captain to essentially kidnap her.  I'm hoping Jamie and Claire don't get separated for too long because I don't want distractions from finding Ian.  However, maybe the Navy will be grateful and help in the search in some way.

10.  For a second, I expected John Grey to be the captain of the English vessel.  Really glad that didn't happen.

11. So Claire actually misses her daughter.  Good to know!  I feel like that loss should be a much bigger deal than they've made it.

[tennisgurl]

On 11/17/2017 at 4:12 PM, BitterApple said:

I agree. Just rub the damn horseshoe, Claire. Seriously, what skin is it off her back if a bunch of poor, illiterate sailors have a few harmless traditions? There's moments where I like her and moments where I think, God, you're such an asshole. 

Yeah, for some reason they keep writing Claire like shes pissed at people from the past for acting like...people from the past! Not everyone is a well educated 20th century person, Claire, people who dont have years of college and centuries of scientific advances needed things to help them explain stuff they didn't understand or to fix problems. You should have figured that out by now!

Dont get me wrong, I still love the show and I am enjoying the season, but  think there are some issues. 

[ganesh]

To be fair to Claire, her return isn't as romantacized as she thought it was going to be. Then, they lost Ian and were thrown into a crisis on the ships. It's not surprising she's on edge, and I'm not a big Claire fan.

On the other hand, I find that she's lacking a little introspection. She had a conversation with Brianna, but it was more like, "enjoy your life." She certainly was prepared with the dress and supplies, but there wasn't much in the way of "what exactly am I getting into here?"

 

56 minutes ago, tennisgurl said:

Dont get me wrong, I still love the show and I am enjoying the season, but  think there are some issues. 

Now that they're doing Black Sails, I'm much more interested in the show. Overall, I've found this season rather flat. I'm not a book reader, so I'm wondering how strong the source material really is in terms of characterization. 

Maybe I'm colored by my history with starz shows. I've loved them all, largely because the shows were so bonkers. (*blind dracula on fire*) This is tepid in comparison. I really enjoyed the suspense of Claire and Jamie trying to save the highland way of life, only to have it crashing down. Maybe the supporting characters from the scots were just stronger than these new ones. Other than the Chinese guy and Fergus (who we already knew), everyone else is just there. Jenny and Ian are great, but we knew them from before. 

[RulerofallIsurvey]

On 11/18/2017 at 5:40 PM, nara said:

4.  With 2 women in the middle of all those men, I was expecting it to get rapey.  Glad that didn't happen.

Ditto. 

I'm actually surprised, given the show's history, that they didn't go there.  Pleasantly surprised, that is. 

[Lunula]

On 11/13/2017 at 0:11 AM, ganesh said:

So the show first was about the race against Collodeon. Now it's going to be completely bonkers with ships and pirates? I mean, Jamie and Claire basically said at the start of the show, "huh, Jenny and Ian don't know that their son was kidnapped by pirates and we fooled them." Good work there. Convenient. 

 

On 11/13/2017 at 5:38 AM, ElectricBoogaloo said:

It was such a throwaway line so of course I was like uhhh, so where exactly do they think their kid is?" Last they knew, Jamie had him swimming out to an island to fetch stuff out of a treasure chest. I really want to know what Jamie said to explain the fact that their son never came home and oh, by the way, now he and Claire are going to France - without paying of Leghair off before leaving either.

"Oh, hello there, what's for supper? Oh, youngeen? Well, your son was so excited by the gold and jewels on the island that he decided we should go to France. Claire and I are leaving in a few days but Ian is, uh, booking us passage, yeah, that's it. No, he's not coming back to say goodbye to you or the rest of the family. Don't worry, you'll see him in a few months. I'll send him your love. Now what are we eating?"

I just can't see Jenny letting Ian run off to France without seeing him before he leaves, ESPECIALLY since he just got back from running away the last time. As soon as Jamie went back to Lallybroch without Ian, she would have grilled him nonstop about where the hell her son went.

Claire mentioned to Jamie that they have to tell Ian & Jenny and Jamie tells her it's fine because he "sent them a letter, explaining everything" - implying they would be gone before Jenny & Ian ever found out. I have to say, I found it very odd that Jamie was so flippant about the situation and that once again, they were keeping secrets - and this is a pretty huge secret that Jenny & Ian would want to know. 

I think this all boils down my biggest issue with S3 so far - the stories and writing seem so haphazard compared to S1 and S2. First off, why the hell would Jamie need to pay Laoghaire alimony? She freaking SHOT him. So we go from sending her to jail to having to pay alimony? Which brings up the next random plot - that there is buried clan treasure he can conveniently use to pay her off. Young Ian runs off to go get it straight-away and randomly, a pirate ship just happens to be there at the exact same time. Why? Did they know about the treasure? Did they see Ian swim out there and want to capture him? Totally. Random. Then we randomly find out there is only one ship matching the description and they're "probably" headed home because they "looked laden with cargo" and that "certainly young Ian would be okay" because he was a young, healthy male that could fetch good money. So they hatch a plan to go to Jamaica and luckily find a ship right away and follow. So they will randomly "find him" in Jamaica? And how does it make ANY sense that Fergus & Marsali are on board? They send word to Lallybroch for their things, when everyone there thinks they are headed to France, and Fergus & Marsali show up and don't bat an eye that they are actually heading to Jamaica? With no explanations? How do they know Claire & Jamie are on that ship if they are supposed to be going to France?

Did I miss an explanation of all this? 

The past 2 seasons didn't feel so random to me. I can buy a coincidence here and there, but it's really a cheap & lazy writing technique and to rely on it so heavily is making me lose interest. 

Edited December 5, 2017 by Lunula
Spelling

[ganesh]

Jenny is going to shoot him when he gets back for losing Ian and she's not going to miss.

I can roll with the alimony issue. I think Laoghaire knows well enough that Jamie is with Claire and that's that. So she's basically cast off from her *second* husband, and she's not that old. What social position does that leave her in? I can see her being like, "ok, but you're going to support me for this". 

The tv writing is constrained by the source material to a degree. I said previously that this season is largely just fanfiction level of writing. That doesn't mean that the tv PTBs can't expand beyond the book as long as the main plot is in place, so part of it is on them. The best thing to happen to Game of Thrones was when they surpassed the books and were able to create on their own. 

I have a feeling that this is probably the level the show is going to be for the run though. 

Edited December 5, 2017 by ganesh

[DittyDotDot]

2 minutes ago, ganesh said:

The tv writing is constrained by the source material to a degree. I said previously that this season is largely just fanfiction level of writing. That doesn't mean that the tv PTBs can't expand beyond the book as long as the main plot is in place, so part of it is on them.

I think you'd be surprised how often they do deviate from the source material.

[ganesh]

Probably the good parts of S3 were when they did. They should do a lot more. I think they completely dropped the ball on how they executed the 5 episodes leading up to Claire going back through the stones. 

[DittyDotDot]

18 minutes ago, ganesh said:

Probably the good parts of S3 were when they did. They should do a lot more. I think they completely dropped the ball on how they executed the 5 episodes leading up to Claire going back through the stones. 

That was actually a huge departure from the source material.

[Athena]

I recommend using Ask the Outlanders thread if you are curious about the books and the adaptation. It is a safe thread wherein unspoiled posters can ask specific things about the books and this season. Thank you.

[kwnyc]

We're racing through Season 3 to finish before this weekend! My big question this episode was: are there no ROWBOATS they can take to Selkie Island? And how was Young Ian supposed to swim back with a treasure chest under his arm? 

Also, Claire in doctor mode is Best Claire. She does does her shit, and anyone with half a brain can see she knows what she's doing. 

[Hook75]

This is getting ridiculous. I think the 20!!! years jump was a big, dumb mistake. This show should have stayed about Jamie, Claire and the Highlanders. 

[ganesh]

The books are what they are and the show is adapted from them. I haven't read them and don't care to but that's the show. 

[roundtheworld]

Getting rather annoyed, she can bring metal and her surgical things thru the stones but she couldn't think 'hey, a tiny amount of gold back then would have been incredible, let me see what valuable things I can take with me to help me/us when I'm there' but they can't do that for the same reason a rowboat couldn't be used by YI et all to get the box.

[chaifan]

I really thought that the episode would end with Claire and Marsali marching to the bow of the boat, climbing up on the rail with backs to the crew, facing the water (a la Titanic "king of the world" scene) and opening their blouses to bare their breasts to the sea.  It would have been a bonding moment for Claire and Marsali, it would get the captain and crew off the "women are bad luck" trope, Jamie and Fergus would get a good laugh off it.  And then, miraculously, the wind would blow. 

But, no, instead Claire has to go and get herself kidnapped (again). 

[LilJen]

Slowly working through season 3 now that it's on Netflix.

A haiku in honor of Willoughby's Asian medical techniques:

Barf in a bucket

Poor Jamie might lose his balls

acupuncture, yay!

[parrotfeathers]

3 hours ago, LilJen said:

Slowly working through season 3 now that it's on Netflix.

A haiku in honor of Willoughby's Asian medical techniques:

Barf in a bucket

Poor Jamie might lose his balls

acupuncture, yay!

That is cute!  I'm making my way through it also.

[Camera One]

The Caribbean variation of the theme song was comical.  I am guessing this is how they are going to tie in that random skeleton they threw into the Boston storyline so Claire can have some fore-knowledge like she did with Culloden.  It seems awfully clunky.

Jaime and Claire haven't really worked through any of the major trust issues between them, so I didn't like that they were already getting close again.  

At least the new setting with life at sea and superstitions of sailors was an interesting diversion.  I think the historical exploration of different facets of life is sometimes more interesting than the actual characters.

Leery's daughter was annoying, and I wouldn't have cared if they walked her off the plank.   I don't see what Fergus sees in her.

Dr. Claire and the Case of The Typhoid Infested Ship is more interesting than the "romantic" storyline.

[Cdh20]

12 hours ago, Camera One said:

The Caribbean variation of the theme song was comical.  I am guessing this is how they are going to tie in that random skeleton they threw into the Boston storyline so Claire can have some fore-knowledge like she did with Culloden.  It seems awfully clunky.

Jaime and Claire haven't really worked through any of the major trust issues between them, so I didn't like that they were already getting close again.  

At least the new setting with life at sea and superstitions of sailors was an interesting diversion.  I think the historical exploration of different facets of life is sometimes more interesting than the actual characters.

Leery's daughter was annoying, and I wouldn't have cared if they walked her off the plank.   I don't see what Fergus sees in her.

Dr. Claire and the Case of The Typhoid Infested Ship is more interesting than the "romantic" storyline.

The best parts of this episode were Jamie & Claire’s moments! I loved that “horny “ Claire was mad she would not be sharing a cabin with Jamie, & then their moonlit talk, & their below deck romp were perfection. Good thing they are back on track! 
 

 

[gingerella]

Dear Show, yer tearing me guts out, wi' all these stupid story lines, ye ken?!? So now we're in the Pirates of the Caribbean segment of this thing? Gimme a break!

Let it be said that my heart lept with joy to see none other than Cousin Jared again! He is a Prince among men, and I wish we'd seen more of him in France, as well as after. He always is forward thinking and has good solutions to situations, unlike his cousin, Jamie, who's always in hot water of some kind. Did I hear him correctly when they were talking of Ian that, "A healthy male can be sold for £30"? If so, so he's saying Ian will be 'safe' because he's worth that much money?! How is that safe? Maybe Cousin Jared shouldn't be on my best liked list after all...

The two guys from Ardsmuir are like the new S03 Angus & Rupert, and that entire 'Jonah' situation was just brutal and cruel and really did nothing to advance the story for me, other than perhaps draw more loyalty to Jamie from those two?

The entire Artemis ship sequence was just odd. Firstly, it's enough to have two women onboard, but for Claire to be constantly hugging and cozying up to Jamie publicly in front of a bunch of male sailors just seemed really off, like Claire, read the damn room, or ship as it may be in this case! It was so sad hearing Jamie say "Watching Scotland fall away..." because he really loves Scotland so very much, as do I, and I'm not excited about going to Jamaica or wherever we're headed now. Scrolling back in this thread from 2017 I see I'm very much not alone in that sentiment.

Let's have a wee chat about Fergus and Marsali...first of all, she's just as nasty as her mother is, and Fergus must know Leery is bat shit crazy and Jamie had a bad experience being married to her, so why would he want to marry her, she's his non-blood step sister FFS! On top of that, don't tell me they've been courting for several months because his ass has been in Edinburgh so I call bullshit on that weak plot point! Also, if you're going to stow away with Claire and Jamie then at least be civil to her and not a bitch. And it cannot be said enough, Fergus is pretty worldly for his age and I just do not see him taking up with a provincial bitch from the boonies, I just don't. Sorry Story, not holding water for me at all.

I don't need to see Jamie puke BUT, if it gets us more Willoughby then I'm okay to suffer through that bit! I LOVE Willoughby, he's one of those secondary characters - like Murtagh (where art thou dear Murtagh?!?) and Cousin Jared, whom I adore and wish we'd see more of! I knew he was interesting when first we met him but he has exceeded my expectations in so many ways! A philosopher, a poet, a writer, a romantic, a calligraphy expert, a man tortured by his decision to chart his own life course and stand up to what was expected of him back in China. He is so multi-faceted and so interesting!

Willoughby: "A story told is a life lived...Once I tell it, I have to let it go..."

So profound, really. I loved his notice of the bird flying on the wind, and checking to see how quickly his water calligraphy would dry out, and knowing from those two things that the wind was about to pick up in their favor. And his command of the ship's crew when they stood rapt as he told his life story, then let it go...That was one of the best scenes of this season thus far! It was an arresting image to see swarthy sailors all standing hypnotized by his story, well, his real life story to be honest. Well done show, and I don't even like ship scenes!

And last but not least, when Jamie is telling Claire he likes the gray streaks in her hair and he says, "Your hair...is like silver..." and she tells him, "In my time if you said that you'd be the king of men", I just laughed out loud. It's so corny but also so true and a great line too (so it must be in the books then, haha!).

I don't really have anything to say about the warship situation other than, Claire should have lied and told the guy 'do this and get to the nearest port and you'll be fine', then said "I have to go to my ship and get some medicine for your crew" and sent it back with whomever rowed her over there. She really does not think things through at all, does she?!?

That's really all I got, and I normally have a lot to say about an episode. I'm feeling like I don't understand why there is such a huge fandom for the book series unless it's grossly different than the Show because it just feels like two seasons made sense, and then story of Culloden was over in S03E01, and the rest of this season has been half about how both the main characters coped during their 20 year separation, then getting back together, but what now? Where is the story line? Is it just going to be about one DRAMA after the next? Because GoT did that and it didn't work very well IMO...And again I say, we are now 4 episodes gone without any glimpse of 1960's Boston or Scotland and I damn well want to know what's going on with Rog & Bri!

Edited June 12, 2021 by gingerella

[Anothermi]

I actually relaxed into this episode because it wasn't quite as incomprehensible to me as the two previous ones. (And I have to acknowledge that the discussions from you folks has improved my POV concerning some of the crazy-making behaviours of our main characters. So thank you all.)

Without a doubt—Willoughby was the highlight of the episode.  He actually knows Jamie better than Claire at this point, but then so did his counterpart, Murtagh. I often think that Jamie would have been lost without Claire, but he had Murtagh at Ardsmuir prison and Willoughby from whenever. After he returned home from Helswater anyway. Neither of these men would have challenged him the way Claire was able to, but Willoughby—and his "foreign" POV would have come closest. (Claire did bring a "foreign" POV from the future as well as a female one.)

I was delighted to see cousin Jared as well—once I figured out why I should know who he was. Even then, I wondered what he was doing in Scotland? That might have been helpful info.  I guess the Jacobite cause was deemed to be so truly lost—at least by the English—that is was safe for him to be back home. 

The Fergus story? Yeah. Not worth the screen time at this point. I hope it goes somewhere later. We did see that Fergus still admires Jamie and tries to emulate him. That's all I got. 

I did like  New!Angus and New!Rupert—for what is was worth. I was happy with ANYTHING that wasn't Claire and Jamie talking at cross purposes to each other.  When on a long sea voyage? Distraction is the key. The story presented filled the bill for me. 

Willoughby's life story! And letting it go...  Riveting. What a smart man—to figure out what would keep the crew distracted long enough to save the life of New!Angus. And once the wind was revealed? Jamie knew exactly what his friend had done. 

2 hours ago, gingerella said:

That was one of the best scenes of this season thus far!

Agreed.  And such a needed departure from the Claire-or-Jamie-in-Peril storylines. 

16 minutes ago, gingerella said:

Did I hear him correctly when they were talking of Ian that, "A healthy male can be sold for £30"? If so, so he's saying Ian will be 'safe' because he's worth that much money?! How is that safe? Maybe Cousin Jared shouldn't be on my best liked list after all...

Ha! Ha!  I wondered about that statement as well.  But with a bit of time to think about it—and because Jared is a businessman in the 18th century and thinks like a businessman—he probably meant that whoever took Young Ian wouldn't do anything to "damage the goods" given how much they could get for a prime specimen. So he'd be fed well enough, and likely not abused.  A distasteful truth—but a truth no less.

There was a recurring theme in this show—regarding relaying important information—that made me laugh:

• Jamie told Claire that he'd written a letter to Jenny and Ian to explain about young Ian;
• Fergus' girlfriend told Jamie that she will write her mother a letter letting her know she was "hand-fast" wed with Fergus; and lastly
• Captain Thomas Leonard, of His Majesty's ship, the Porpoise, sailing away with Claire and telling her he'd sent a message to the captain of the Artemis explaining his actions and promising to provide accommodation for Claire until she could return to the Artemis. He also mentioned that both ships were headed to Jamaica.

Act first. Explain later. Everybody's doing it. 

The duh, Duh, DUH ending-look on Claire's face seemed out of place to me because I thought the youthful Captain had made the only rational decision of the episode. (aside from Willoughby that is)

[gingerella]

48 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

Without a doubt—Willoughby was the highlight of the episode.  He actually knows Jamie better than Claire at this point, but then so did his counterpart, Murtagh. I often think that Jamie would have been lost without Claire, but he had Murtagh at Ardsmuir prison and Willoughby from whenever. After he returned home from Helswater anyway. Neither of these men would have challenged him the way Claire was able to, but Willoughby—and his "foreign" POV would have come closest. (Claire did bring a "foreign" POV from the future as well as a female one.)

I love this sentiment! He does know Jamie as the man is currently is, better than Claire does right now. Interesting...

48 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

I was delighted to see cousin Jared as well—once I figured out why I should know who he was. Even then, I wondered what he was doing in Scotland? That might have been helpful info.  I guess the Jacobite cause was deemed to be so truly lost—at least by the English—that is was safe for him to be back home. 

I also wondered how Cousin Jared just so happened to be in Scotland and able to help Jamie obtain a ship to sail to Jamaica. I never thought about the Jacobite connection though because Cousin Jared seemed very discreet about that stuff, as opposed to Jamie and Claire who went around Paris like they were assistants to BPC!

48 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

he probably meant that whoever took Young Ian wouldn't do anything to "damage the goods" given how much they could get for a prime specimen. So he'd be fed well enough, and likely not abused.  A distasteful truth—but a truth no less.

Aha, that makes better sense, thank you!

48 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

There was a recurring theme in this show—regarding relaying important information—that made me laugh:

• Jamie told Claire that he'd written a letter to Jenny and Ian to explain about young Ian;
• Fergus' girlfriend told Jamie that she will write her mother a letter letting her know she was "hand-fast" wed with Fergus; and lastly
• Captain Thomas Leonard, of His Majesty's ship, the Porpoise, sailing away with Claire and telling her he'd sent a message to the captain of the Artemis explaining his actions and promising to provide accommodation for Claire until she could return to the Artemis. He also mentioned that both ships were headed to Jamaica.

Act first. Explain later. Everybody's doing it. 

The duh, Duh, DUH ending-look on Claire's face seemed out of place to me because I thought the youthful Captain had made the only rational decision of the episode. (aside from Willoughby that is)

Great observation re: all the letter writing!

One thing your post made me think about is this - I guarantee that any other ship's medic would have refused to board the Porpoise after hearing the acting captain explain what was going on. Claire is always letting her ego get her into bad situations by always reverting to, "Jamie, I swore an oath, I must help this person/these men". Oy, Jamie has a lot of damn patience.

Oh yeah, and did Jenny and Ian know that Young Ian had been kidnapped by pirates and was being spirited away to Jamaica, or just that they were on their way? Because Jenny would Lose.Her.Shit. if she knew he'd been kidnapped. And considering Ian said to Jamie, 'Take better care of him this time', it isn't going so well is it?

Edited June 11, 2021 by gingerella

[Camera One]

Before rewatching the last episode, I had forgotten that conversation atop the cliff interrupted by the pirate ship's arrival.  Claire was seriously questioning her decision to stay.  This whole kidnapping basically made that a moot point.  I guess all you need for true love are constant danger and life and death scenarios.

22 minutes ago, gingerella said:

Oh yeah, and did Jenny and Ian know that Young Ian had been kidnapped by pirates and was being spirited away to Jamaica, or just that they were on their way? Because Jenny would Lose.Her.Shit. if she knew he'd been kidnapped. And considering Ian said to Jamie, 'Take better care of him this time', it isn't going so well is it?

I question whether Jaime actually told Jenny the truth about Young Ian being kidnapped in the letter.  There's nothing she could do anyway, so maybe it's better if she didn't know.

[Anothermi]

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

Claire is always letting her ego get her into bad situations by always reverting to, "Jamie, I swore an oath, I must help this person/these men". Oy, Jamie has a lot of damn patience.

At least she explained about her (Hippocratic) oath this time! Last time her insistance on saving the life of the man who tried to kill her came across as bonkers.  Jamie, of all people,  certainly understands the imperative of swearing an oath! He swears an oath almost as often as other men just swear!  I'd like to hear how Claire would explain the origins of the Hippocratic oath to Jamie. At least he would understand.

1 hour ago, gingerella said:

Oh yeah, and did Jenny and Ian know that Young Ian had been kidnapped by pirates and was being spirited away to Jamaica, or just that they were on their way?

Given Claire's reaction to Jamie lying to Ian in Edinburgh I think the exchange referencing writing to Jenny and Ian  was to tell the truth—AFTER they'd left.  Claire mentioned that J & I still thought they were headed to France so they wouldn't be worried—yet. That's when sending a letter to explain everything came up. So I think he did tell the truth, just ducked out of facing Jenny's wrath. And Claire seemed on board with that approach!

1 hour ago, Camera One said:

Claire was seriously questioning her decision to stay.  This whole kidnapping basically made that a moot point.  I guess all you need for true love are constant danger and life and death scenarios.

Well, at least that explains the constant use of them. Doesn't make it a good plan, nor good for character building. But you're probably right. 

 

One other recurring theme—that fits well for those of us viewing during a Pandemic—is the recurrence of Claire's vaccinations. Smallpox in S01 and this Season—Typhoid.

Edited June 11, 2021 by Anothermi

[gingerella]

2 minutes ago, Anothermi said:

One other recurring theme—that fits well for those of us viewing during a Pandemic—is the recurrence of Claire's vaccinations. Smallpox in S01 and this Season—Typhoid.

Yes! Before she said it, I was thinking first, NO GIRL don't go over there and put yourself at risk! And then I remembered she'd have been vaccinated and could actually walk amongst them, BUT...again, no other medical officer would have gone aboard because of the risk of infection, they'd have given instructions and told the captain what to do. To go aboard was dumb IMO.

[Camera One]

5 minutes ago, gingerella said:

Yes! Before she said it, I was thinking first, NO GIRL don't go over there and put yourself at risk! And then I remembered she'd have been vaccinated and could actually walk amongst them, BUT...again, no other medical officer would have gone aboard because of the risk of infection, they'd have given instructions and told the captain what to do. To go aboard was dumb IMO.

She's acting like this is someone at another hospital in Boston asking her to visit for a consult in the 1960s.  It's not just disease that's the danger, lady.

Edited June 11, 2021 by Camera One

[gingerella]

Something I forgot to mention above, it was either when I was rewatching First Wife or at the beginning of The Doldrums, on Netflix they do this ‘previously on Outlander’ and show clips leading up to or related to the next episode. Anyway, I think it was on the previously’s for First Wife they showed a clip of Lord John and one of his men from Ardsmuir and they were standing atop the same cliff overlooking Selkie Island, same spot where Jamie and Claire were waiting for Young Ian to swim out to the island from. The convo was something like this:

Lord John: “So this is where he was last seen?”

Red coat: “Yes sir, people saw him swimming out to that island.”

So it made me wonder...the ship that came round the corner of Selkie island just when YI is coming down the hill was way too coincidental, BUT, is it possible not really a pirate ship, but rather Lord John went looking for the treasure? Jamie came back to Ardsmuir and said there was no treasurer but he did give Lord John that sapphire and I cannot remember what he told Lord John about how he got that sapphire. Whatever the story was that Jamie told him, he returned to Ardsmuir with a big ass sapphire so it would stand to reason that more might be there, no? And Lord John eventually decided to take a look too. The timing is still ridiculously convenient but that idea popped into my head and I wondered if it had merit...

Edited June 11, 2021 by gingerella

[Anothermi]

10 hours ago, gingerella said:

Something I forgot to mention above, it was either when I was rewatching First Wife or at the beginning of The Doldrums, on Netflix they do this ‘previously on Outlander’ and show clips leading up to or related to the next episode. Anyway, I think it was on the previously’s for First Wife they showed a clip of Lord John and one of his men from Ardsmuir and they were standing atop the same cliff overlooking Selkie Island, same spot where Jamie and Claire were waiting for Young Ian to swim out to the island from. The convo was something like this:

Lord John: “So this is where he was last seen?”

Red coat: “Yes sir, people saw him swimming out to that island.”

So it made me wonder...the ship that came round the corner of Selkie island just when YI is coming down the hill was way too coincidental, BUT, is it possible not really a pirate ship, but rather Lord John went looking for the treasure? Jamie came back to Ardsmuir and said there was no treasurer but he did give Lord John that sapphire and I cannot remember what he told Lord John about how he got that sapphire. Whatever the story was that Jamie told him, he returned to Ardsmuir and a big ass sapphire so it would stand to reason that more might be there, no? And Lord John eventually decided to take a look too. The timing is still ridiculously convenient but that idea popped into my head and I wondered if it had merit...

I frequently skip the previouslies—old habit formed due to the marathon that was GoT—so I had to go back to see what you were referring to. I think you're on to something. The "previously" for First Wife showed the old fellow who John Grey had Jamie interpret for—and who spoke of la Dame Blanche only he used the Gaelic term meaning the same—speaking of gold and the Silkie from the sea*. The addition of the snippet of John Grey's minion telling/showing him the last place they saw Jamie wasn't necessary unless there is a tie-in. 

Jamie gave John Grey the sapphire claiming he found a box on the island that was empty except for it. So, Lord John Grey knew where the island was and that Jamie got a sapphire there. It's not a far leap for him to suspect Jamie was not telling the whole truth.  It's a long time since that conversation (more than 7 years for sure which only takes us to when Jamie left Helwater), but John Grey may have a reason for searching again now. OR—John may have told the story to someone else who's willing to mount a search.  OMG! John Grey may have told this story to wee Willie, bastard son of... uh... Alexander MacKenzie! He should be a young man now, no?

Still, that ship must have already been sitting behind the island when Jamie, Claire and Ian arrived in order for them to launch a skiff so quickly to capture Ian. Otherwise the coincidence is just too much. 

 

* There is an old Scottish song (maybe not as old as the 1800s, but folk-song old) about the Silkie/ Selkie (both spellings used)—which is someone who is a man when on land and a seal when in water. I am most familiar with the version sung by Joan Baez.  Here is a link to her version:

 

[gingerella]

12 hours ago, Anothermi said:

The "previously" for First Wife showed the old fellow who John Grey had Jamie interpret for—and who spoke of la Dame Blanche only he used the Gaelic term meaning the same—speaking of gold and the Silkie from the sea*. The addition of the snippet of John Grey's minion telling/showing him the last place they saw Jamie wasn't necessary unless there is a tie-in. 

Jamie gave John Grey the sapphire claiming he found a box on the island that was empty except for it. So, Lord John Grey knew where the island was and that Jamie got a sapphire there. It's not a far leap for him to suspect Jamie was not telling the whole truth.  It's a long time since that conversation (more than 7 years for sure which only takes us to when Jamie left Helwater), but John Grey may have a reason for searching again now. OR—John may have told the story to someone else who's willing to mount a search.  OMG! John Grey may have told this story to wee Willie, bastard son of... uh... Alexander MacKenzie! He should be a young man now, no?

Still, that ship must have already been sitting behind the island when Jamie, Claire and Ian arrived in order for them to launch a skiff so quickly to capture Ian. Otherwise the coincidence is just too much. 

I'm glad you're seeing what I'm seeing. I agree, there's no reason to mention the John Grey snippet, nor the old Scotsman, if there isn't a tie in. I don't think though, that Willie is old enough to be on that ship, he was only about 6 or so when last we saw him, still not old enough to be on a ship, he'd still be in school since he has to be educated as he's from a wealthy family. Maybe John Grey found himself in need of funds, perhaps he lost a lot of money somehow and now he needed some quickly and he remembered this treasure and the island...but again, the timing is...suspicious!

The thing is, there's no way that ship could have seen Young Ian swimming out to, nor clamboring up the island to the top. They were completely obsured behind that island, which is quite small as islands go to hide a big ship like that. Again, I'm giving a massive side eye to the show runners about this part. I'm wondering if Young Ian blabbed to someone about this and that's how word got out? Ian and Jenny know better than to mention anything about this...unless Fergus told Marsali and she blabbed about it, and Leery told someone to get back at Jamie. THAT I could buy, because crazy doesn't fall far from the crazy tree. Basically someone knew that they were going to the island to get the treasure.

On 6/10/2021 at 5:27 PM, Camera One said:

Before rewatching the last episode, I had forgotten that conversation atop the cliff interrupted by the pirate ship's arrival.  Claire was seriously questioning her decision to stay.  This whole kidnapping basically made that a moot point.  I guess all you need for true love are constant danger and life and death scenarios.

I know, right?!? Is that a conversation that is moot now? Did they just forget about that? Because it seemed so when they were getting it on in the ship's hold or wherever they had their quickie below deck. I'd like to hear the rest of that conversation, or maybe the "we're mated for life Sassanach" made Claire STFU...

By the way @Anothermi, it hasn't escaped me that this episode is called The Doldrums, and we, as two new Viewers, find ourselves stranded with our newly expanded crew nowhere to be seen on the horizon (except for @Camera One who is nearby!)...I wonder if @SassAndSnacks, @Beeyago, @Cdh20, @QuinnM & @Scarlett45 have all boarded the ship and are sailing away to Jamaica as we speak, or perhaps they're working for Sir Percival and are undercover...time will tell...

Edited June 12, 2021 by gingerella

[Cdh20]

Needless to say the back 1/2 of this season is not a favourite for me, I get seasick! I am still enjoying seeing you tying pieces together, and look forward to revelations & disappointments!