S35.E04: I Don't Like Having Snakes Around

[tvfanatic13]

8 hours ago, cooksdelight said:

You don’t have to do that anymore. They are all recruited via social media or Youtube. The pitches on Shark Tank are recruited at trade shows and conventions, etc.  It’s a “cast” show now.

That second puzzle wore me out watching it. 

I want to hug Ryan... and sqeeze him, and love him, and call him George. :)

Ashley’s acne is bothering me.

I love you the most Cooksdelight

30 minutes ago, eel2178 said:

It will be two more episodes. When they are down to twelve players, it will split into to tribes of six (if they stay true to form).

Won't it be a merge when they are at 12? 

[piequinn35]

I think 2 tribes at 14 then merge at 12.

[Kelda Feegle]

I am never not going to see Vinnie Barbarino when I look at Devon. yeah I'm old.

[simplyme]

Alan Ball's post-game Hollywood Reporter interview is up. I love reading these. It's here:

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/live-feed/survivor-season-35-alan-ball-exit-interview-1050308

For those wondering why they went after Joe and not Desi, this might explain it:

Quote

You've had a lot of time to do the postgame on what happened to you out there. So, what happened? Have you identified a key reason for why you went home?

Yeah: Joe had to go, or I had to go. It's pretty simple. (Laughs.) I don't think that tribe would have lasted a day longer with both of us there. He's not somebody I could have worked with. I don't think he saw me as someone he could have worked with. I think he was intimidated by me. I was annoyed by him. At the end of the day, one of us had to go. He had more power in the game than I did, especially with that idol. That's why I'm sitting on this couch right now talking to you.

What happened between you two out there? Was it clear quickly that you weren't going to get along?

Yeah. As soon as he got to the camp, he just annoyed me. Some of the things he said and says, his interactions... he's just annoying. He's an annoying person. I don't know whether that was for the show or that's him. I don't know. I know that when he showed up at the camp as soon as we got there, before we could even figure out which direction to go, I was deeply annoyed by him. It didn't take long for me to figure out that Joe has got to go. Sometimes, when something is set on your mind, maybe that's a fault of mine, that when I'm locked into something, I'm locked in. Sometimes, that goes your way and makes you successful, and sometimes it ends in your demise. I was locked into getting rid of him. That was my view of it the entire time. Maybe if I saw things a little differently, things would have played out differently. But I definitely couldn't be on that tribe with him for too much longer.

Reading this, I'm also reminded that as we were watching the episode, when Joe had his TH about how he was going to try to be a jerk and make sure to draw their votes, SimplyMom just went, "Oh my God. You really don't know Alan, do you?" 

[TVFan1]

3 hours ago, piequinn35 said:

I think 2 tribes at 14 then merge at 12.

They are at 14 now, though. They wouldn't do a tribe swap two weeks in a row, would they?

[Superpole2000]

I enjoyed this, and I don't like Joe at all. I just like having fresh people, many of whom are somewhat likable, and none of whom have pre-show alliances in place. It makes for a better game. That said, I dislike the advantage concept that blocks a person from voting. I don't think that is fair in a game where voting is THE thing.

One thing I could really do without is the declaration of confidence from the tribe who ultimately loses the immunity challenge later that episode. I think that has happened three times this season now, and it is too much of a tip-off to leave it in the edit. I think most tribes express their confidence at some point everyday, so when the editors show one of these it feels too obvious that they are doing so as foreshadowing irony.

[KimberStormer]

12 hours ago, RedheadZombie said:

Did you shove them into lockers in high school?  ;-)

Nah, I was the nerd myself in high school, though I wasn't really cognizant of that fact so I didn't make it a part of my self-identity the way a lot of nerds do.

I was clear on the advantage rules, but when Devon showed it and it said SECRET ADVANTAGE, it did confuse me for a minute...seems like a bit of unnecessary cruelty to me, to get his hopes up that way.  (Especially for Devon, who is the only one who knows about Ryan's advantage in the first episode...if I were him I might have suspected Ryan sent it to me, that he was the Russell Hantz of one-time advantages.) 

[jzygayle]

On 10/18/2017 at 9:46 PM, vb68 said:

I'm thinking too many people know about it for it not to come up again. Lauren will tell Devon if she gets any chance.

I hope so.  I like Lauren.  She seems to be very much a "Behold the field in which I grow my fucks" sort of person. 

[SVNBob]

16 hours ago, Cutty said:

Dollar Store Tony Vlachos didn't read anyone's face. He was going to play the idol on himself no matter what. It was a stupid move by Alan and Ashley not to put their votes on Desi.

It didn't matter who Joe played the idol for.  Because Devon had been neutralized, as soon as Joe decided to play the idol at all, both he and Desi were guaranteed to be safe.

Let's assume that Alan and Ashley did vote for Desi instead.  That gives us a 2-2 tie.  And Peachy said at the start of the season that tie-breakers are back in play, meaning a re-vote.  Rules of the re-vote are that only the people in the tie are eligible candidates, and that they don't vote.  With Devon still neutralized, that means Ashley and Joe are the only voters, and can only choose from Alan and Desi.  Unless either one flips (Ashley, because Joe won't.), then it's a 1-1 tie again.  Next tie-break is the public discussion, but that's also doomed to fail here.  So we end up going to the PRoD.  By PRoD rules, the people in tie become immune, so Alan and Desi are safe.  But Joe is also safe because of the idol.  So both the former Healers survive.

If the votes had stayed the same, but Joe did play the idol for Desi instead, then everything above still happens, just swapping Desi and Joe's positions.

[Bryce Lynch]

13 hours ago, piequinn35 said:

If Jessica's tribe lost, not delivered though she would just say "Jeff, I'm gonna block <insert name>'s vote"

The second layer of the adv was really confusing, we thought Devon had the "adv" but he was the recipient of the adv of Jessica.

I just watched Jessica reading the secret advantage.  It said that if her tribe went to Tribal Council "you will send this anonymously to someone on your tribe. They will not know its power until the open it at Tribal Council.  If you win immunity and do not go to Tribal Council, you must send this anonymously to someone on the losing tribe.  They will open it at Tribal Council and discover they are not allowed to vote."

So, if Jessica's tribe had gone to TC, it would have worked the same way it did with Devon, except her whole tribe would have known it was coming, thanks to Cole.

It is also clear that Jessica knew she was blocking Devon's vote rather than giving him the advantage to use on whomever he wanted.  However, Jessica did not read that part out loud, I had to freeze the screen to read it on the instructions.  That makes me think the producers/editors deliberately allowed the audience to draw the wrong conclusion.

Edited October 20, 2017 by Bryce Lynch

[Star Aristille]

2 minutes ago, Bryce Lynch said:

It is also clear that Jessica knew she was blocking Cole's vote rather than giving him the advantage to use on whomever he wanted.

You mean Devon, right?

[Bryce Lynch]

12 minutes ago, Star Aristille said:

You mean Devon, right?

Yes, I corrected it.  Thanks.

[Nashville]

21 hours ago, amazingracefan said:

I'm not sure it decided the challenge but it does annoy me when a luck element is put in (whether you choose the right key first or not).

...or grab the right bag of chips....  :)

 

20 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

Did the person who received the Secret Not an Advantage envelope have to open it and "use" it or could they choose not to, before opening it?  I know it could only be used at that TC, but was it required?  I guess normally nobody would turn down a Secret "Advantage" handed to them just before the vote, though perhaps if they were 100% secure in the vote they might.  

The actual choice to open the Someone's Advantage was probably exactly that - a choice, left up to the recipient. I don't recall anything similar in the previous history of Survivor which would lead the recipient to believe something labeled "Secret Advantage" was anything but an advantage for themselves, though, so I think Devon could be excused for such a misperception.  Congratulations, Production - took you the better part of a decade, but you finally came up with an original thought.

 

12 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

Yea this. Initially I was like, 'wait what?' when Devon was blocked from voting, but that's entirely because I don't pay attention to some aspects of the episodes. I don't think the show was trying to mislead viewers in this case. They plainly showed Jessica reading the exact rules. 

Same here - 'twas purely my misperception based on previous season's.  I simply wasn't prepared for the shocking possibility of TPTB doing something, you know, original.  ;>

Edited October 20, 2017 by Nashville

[NDW5332]

13 hours ago, Star Aristille said:

Actually, he picks up Daffy Duck, not Sylvester.

I think the Loony Toons reference actually comes from Of Mice and Men.

[ByaNose]

I'm still on the fence with the Secret Not an Advantage twist. In theory, it added drama but it also wasn't an advantage for Devon when he thought it was because it actually said it was an advantage. I guess I would like it explained better somehow next time. I'm not sure how but something needs to be done, right? It will be interesting to see if it's done again next season since they were filmed back to back.

[Guest]

I liked the fake-out of the advantage being a disadvantage.  Anything they can do to keep tribals less predictable, I'm good with.  

I agree that the editing of the 'we have the strongest tribe' comment gave away which tribe was going to lose and go to tribal.  

[ljenkins782]

14 hours ago, iMonrey said:

It matters because I didn't get what the hell happened. I assumed that, like Ryan's advantage, Jessica's advantage would be passed along to someone on the losing tribe who could use it to their own advantage. When it turned out Ryan had been disadvantaged, I was left wondering who the hell Jessica gave the advantage to and who used it on Ryan, and why, if they were all counting on him to be the swing vote. 

Now, if the rest of y'all got it and knew what was going on the second Devon found the paper at camp, bully for you. Maybe I missed something. But I thought it was confusing and the whole episode ended with me going "huh?"

That's why it mattered. 

So you not following along is the show's fault? Okay then. 

Quote

According to Josh Wigler who was present for the first three days of the game none of the Healers or Hustlers saw Chrissy puke after the challenge. Apparently this happened after those other two tribes left. 

I'd read this too. In that case, I wonder what made him pick her over Katrina, who was also in the "older" woman boat. 

[ProfCrash]

14 hours ago, iMonrey said:

It matters because I didn't get what the hell happened. I assumed that, like Ryan's advantage, Jessica's advantage would be passed along to someone on the losing tribe who could use it to their own advantage. When it turned out Ryan had been disadvantaged, I was left wondering who the hell Jessica gave the advantage to and who used it on Ryan, and why, if they were all counting on him to be the swing vote. 

Now, if the rest of y'all got it and knew what was going on the second Devon found the paper at camp, bully for you. Maybe I missed something. But I thought it was confusing and the whole episode ended with me going "huh?"

That's why it mattered. 

I zoned out when she was reading the rules. If you go back and rewatch it, she reads the rules and it is clear that she gets to block the vote of someone from a tribe at tribal. Just because I zoned out when it was read didn't mean that it did not happen. (shrugs) I like that they are forcing advantages to be played and I liked how she played the advantage this time.

[peachmangosteen]

4 hours ago, Nashville said:

The actual choice to open the Someone's Advantage was probably exactly that - a choice, left up to the recipient. 

That is something I am still confused about. So did Jessica, and in turn Devon, have the choice to not use this advantage, like Ryan/Chrissy did with the first advantage? It doesn't seem like there was a choice involved. It seemed like it had to be used.

[peachmangosteen]

15 hours ago, needschocolate said:

We all thought that Devon got an advantage, but that was partly because we all thought Devin had been on the same tribe as the one who got the advantage.

I find this sentence confusing. Is it about that fact that a lot of people seem to be confusing Devon with Cole? This season really is hard to follow! 

[Bryce Lynch]

21 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

That is something I am still confused about. So did Jessica, and in turn Devon, have the choice to not use this advantage, like Ryan/Chrissy did with the first advantage? It doesn't seem like there was a choice involved. It seemed like it had to be used.

This is what the instructions said:

"You will send this anonymously to someone on your tribe. They will not know its power until they open it at Tribal Council.  If you win immunity and do not go to Tribal Council, you must send this anonymously to someone on the losing tribe.  They will open it at Tribal Council and discover they are not allowed to vote."

So, I don't know if it clearly stated that :

a) Jessica had to send the idol to someone on whatever tribe lost.  It says, "You will" send..." which could be taken a making it mandatory.

b) The recipient of the Secret (This is Not an) Advantage was required to take it to TC and open it.    I tend to think the recipient had no choice, but it didn't seem to be clearly laid out in the instructions.

Of course, in Devon's case, he would have no reason to think that the thing inside his "Secret Advantage" envelope was actually a disadvantage, so you'd think opening it would be a no-brainer.  In the case of Jessica's tribe, everybody knew what it was because Jessica blabbed to Mike and Cole and Cole blabbed to Lauren and Ben.  If they had gone to TC, I guess we would have found out if the recipient was required to open it.  

[jhummerbird]

I think that Jessica's intentions were much simpler. I bet that she assumed it would be a 4-1 vote against Devon, and she was worried that Devon might have an idol and then be able to vote out either Desi or Joe with one vote. So she blocked his vote to prevent that from happening. 
I was really shocked that both Joe/Desi and Alan/Ashley stuck to the plan after Devon's "advantage" was read. I would have thought they would all swing immediately to voting out Devon. Since they didn't have an idol, I don't know what Alan/Ashley were hoping would happen once they were stuck in a tie. Did they think that Desi would flip? Or were they willing to go to rocks as their best chance? 

I felt bad for Jessica when she was crying. I got the feeling that she had been cheated on or otherwise betrayed by a romantic relationship sometime in the past, because of how she mentioned that she wondered if she was just bad at choosing potential partners, and that Cole's backstabbing had brought up those memories. Maybe she's just a crier, but I got the feeling there was a longer history involved. 

[Xcptnl]

18 hours ago, Star Aristille said:

Actually, Jessica knew that Joe had the idol.  I fully believe that she expected him to play it if she caused a 2-2 deadlock.  And sure enough, he did play it and break the deadlock.  So I don't think she erred at all.  She took a risk, sure, but it wasn't an error.  She probably tried to anticipate Joe's move and did so correctly.

Actually, he picks up Daffy Duck, not Sylvester.

It's a reference from Of Mice and Men.  And then the cartoons used it.  :). 

[piequinn35]

8 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

I just watched Jessica reading the secret advantage.  It said that if her tribe went to Tribal Council "you will send this anonymously to someone on your tribe. They will not know its power until the open it at Tribal Council.  If you win immunity and do not go to Tribal Council, you must send this anonymously to someone on the losing tribe.  They will open it at Tribal Council and discover they are not allowed to vote."

So, if Jessica's tribe had gone to TC, it would have worked the same way it did with Devon, except her whole tribe would have known it was coming, thanks to Cole.

It is also clear that Jessica knew she was blocking Devon's vote rather than giving him the advantage to use on whomever he wanted.  However, Jessica did not read that part out loud, I had to freeze the screen to read it on the instructions.  That makes me think the producers/editors deliberately allowed the audience to draw the wrong conclusion.

The power of pause yay! You are right, I pause the tv sometimes too but not this part, coz I thought it was the same as Ryan-Crissy adv.

13 hours ago, TVFan1 said:

They are at 14 now, though. They wouldn't do a tribe swap two weeks in a row, would they?

Dunno, they could also have 2 tribes at 13, but 1 goes to exile whatever, when he/she comes back it's merge time.

[eel2178]

21 hours ago, piequinn35 said:

I think 2 tribes at 14 then merge at 12.

My prediction is two tribes at 12 and the merge will happen at 10. This follows the pattern of previous seasons.

[eel2178]

10 hours ago, Nashville said:

...or grab the right bag of chips....  :)

It reminded me of the reality show 60 days in. After lunch was served, one of the convicts announced, "I was expecting something in with my chips. If you got it by mistake, you better give it to me." The 'something' was a reefer the kitchen staff was supposed to sneak in for her.

[kikaha]

What would have happened if Devan did not open the secret advantage (which was really a curse)?  Would he have voted?  Was that even an option?

No reason he would have ignored the 'advantage', because he thought it would help him.  But now, going forward, you have to wonder about a so-called advantage that is gifted to you.

Also, what would Survivor have done if Devan opened the advantage before tribal?  Players really have an incentive to do so now, since they don't know if the advantage will help or harm them.  Clever contestants might find a way to open the advantage without the production team knowing. 

[NutMeg]

9 hours ago, ByaNose said:

I'm still on the fence with the Secret Not an Advantage twist. In theory, it added drama but it also wasn't an advantage for Devon when he thought it was because it actually said it was an advantage. I guess I would like it explained better somehow next time. I'm not sure how but something needs to be done, right? It will be interesting to see if it's done again next season since they were filmed back to back.

They could rename the "Advantage" Chance or Fortuna (if Chance is already a trademark because of Monopoly).

[blackwing]

2 hours ago, kikaha said:

What would have happened if Devan did not open the secret advantage (which was really a curse)?  Would he have voted?  Was that even an option?

No reason he would have ignored the 'advantage', because he thought it would help him.  But now, going forward, you have to wonder about a so-called advantage that is gifted to you.

Also, what would Survivor have done if Devan opened the advantage before tribal?  Players really have an incentive to do so now, since they don't know if the advantage will help or harm them.  Clever contestants might find a way to open the advantage without the production team knowing. 

I believe there was an article somewhere, maybe it was even posted here, where Jeff said that Devin had to open it.  So, no choice.  Like I've said earlier, it wasn't his advantage.  It was Jessica's advantage and she exercised it to negate Devin's vote.  He didn't have a choice to refuse to open it.  

[peachmangosteen]

12 minutes ago, blackwing said:

I believe there was an article somewhere, maybe it was even posted here, where Jeff said that Devin had to open it.  So, no choice.  Like I've said earlier, it wasn't his advantage.  It was Jessica's advantage and she exercised it to negate Devin's vote.  He didn't have a choice to refuse to open it.  

Did Jeff make it clear whether or not Jessica had to use the advantage?

Edited October 21, 2017 by peachmangosteen

[Nashville]

10 hours ago, peachmangosteen said:

That is something I am still confused about. So did Jessica, and in turn Devon, have the choice to not use this advantage, like Ryan/Chrissy did with the first advantage? It doesn't seem like there was a choice involved. It seemed like it had to be used.

That's kinda the question of the hour.  :)  

We all saw Devon take the Secret Advantage out of his pocket and present it at TC - and given past Survivor history, from Devon's perspective there was absolutely no reason why he should NOT do so.  

The question is whether Devon ever had any option not to, and IMHO Production did not adequately address that question; probably because since Devon did put the SA into play, TPTB didn't feel any pressing need to explore or explain alternate options.  If any existed.

[MissEwa]

26 minutes ago, Nashville said:

...from Devon's perspective there was absolutely no reason why he should NOT do so.  

On the other hand, he knew he was the swing vote and probably felt pretty safe. So he also had no reason to play it, really - and honestly he would be guessing it would be either an II or an extra vote - which he doesn't need, and if it's an II it potentially puts a target on his back - or a vote steal/bloc - which he also doesn't need but could also make him enemies - so he did have reasons *not* to play it. 

I'm mostly curious from a production point of view what happened if he didn't. Would Jeff just be like 'hold up! Devon, do you have something to share with the group?' or would they stop filming and instruct him? For all we know - maybe it's been addressed in interviews, I don't know - he wasn't going to play it, so they stopped filming and production told him he had to. 

[Lady Writer]

Really liking this season so far. I started watching again last season after a hiatus of many years. Are all the old-style challenges gone? Last season I noticed there was no auction (one of the very best parts of Survivor!), and I seem to remember there being a lot more intellectual and psychological challenges and not just endless physical ones. There were memory games, and ones where you had to solve clues to find things in the woods, and problem-solving ones that required more elevated strategizing than "Here's a thought: Why not get the heavier people to lift the light person to the top of this tower we're stacking?" Last season seemed to be about 70% swimming challenges, and 30% how long can you stand on this stump challenges. (With the obligatory puzzle or maze here and there, but how about giving the intellectuals more love?) Wasn't there once one where you had to be able to recite facts about your tribemates or something, to show how well you'd gotten to know them? More variety, please, CBS.

Maybe they only did the less-physical challenges back then because everyone was starving all the time? Which doesn't seem to be the case anymore (which is a good thing -- no reason anyone should die for a TV show). I do miss the drama about who wasn't getting water enough and such, though. And whatever happened to Tree Mail? I'm old-school. (Yes, I remember the Conch Shell of Truth, or whatever it was.) Didn't they get riddles about what their next challenge would be or something and implements to practice for it? THAT'S what they should do. Tribes should have to solve a riddle to find out where one of the challenges will be, and if they don't make it in time they're automatically disqualified. Or any extra time they spend getting there compared to other teams gets subtracted from the time they have to complete the physical challenge.

I love the creativity with the advantages this season, including strictly limited time frames, mandated passing on to other tribes, and secret placements in things like bags of chips. I feel like they're doing the quick expirations to avoid the advantage/idol Tribal Council overload of last season that resulted in things like the Cerie boot.

Another cool part of this season is that the fallback policy of keeping strong guys around does not seem to be happening at all! Even all the "alpha" males pretty much seem to be allying with women or less-physically imposing men instead of each other.

How are people just noticing that Devon's hot?

Then again, I think I'm just noticing for the first time that there's someone named Roark. I literally was like, who the hell is that?

I do think it seems fundamentally unfair to present a disadvantage as an advantage. I think for Devon the outside should have read something like "Another player has exercised their secret advantage on you." It still wouldn't have given the game away, but it would have kept the label from being fundamentally dishonest, which I think it was.

So far I'm loving Lauren's play, and pretty much all the ladies'. I was pleasantly surprised that the woman allied with Allen was so easily able to overcome their differences and be pragmatic about the benefits of sticking together. He was growing on me despite his bumpy start, and I think he exited gracefully despite his obvious shock.

Loved Cole folding sheepishly with, "I did tell Ben," after Jessica simply stared at him accusingly for a bit. I don't think she should necessarily give up on him on a personal level -- he doesn't seem to be a practiced liar, which is certainly a positive when it comes to men.

If I were her I might start treating him as counterintelligence -- feeding him info that was advantageous to have spread around and only telling him what he needed to know on the way to Tribal. 'Cause now that he's known as so loose-lipped, people are probably automatically going to believe everything he says. Hmmm, maybe that could be a good strategy for him if he decided to start lying. He'll be like the anti-boy-who-cried-wolf. Maybe he PLANNED THIS ALL ALONG . . .

Joe definitely isn't my favorite -- especially after having lobbed that potato away last episode that someone was offering to eat because he was pissy about how it was prepared; I would have been PISSED! -- but so far he's no Hantz-level villain; just comical, and it's good to have variety. I haven't seen some of the seasons with the people other posters have been comparing him to, but with his penchant for sowing discord by making up lies about other people and trying to keep people off balance, he reminds me of a much clumsier and less-sophisticated Sandra. A Clouseau to her Sherlock.

[ByaNose]

I think Joe is more of a Russell/Tony clone then a straight Tony clone. I don’t think Joe isn't as erratic as Tony was in of either of his seasons. I could see him making the Final 3 and maybe getting some votes but not winning. Of course, there’s a lot of game to be played but if Tony & Desi can hang tight they might be in good standing come merge. 

I agree that the (Dis)advantage wasn’t explained to the audience clearly enough. That said, I think production only cares that the contestants understand it clearly. I think I just misunderstood or misheard the rules when Jessica read the instructions. Even when Devon “found” the clue I still thought it was a great thing for him. And, then when he read it at Tribal Council I was like, “What??????”. Overall, it wasn’t a horrible twist but it just wasn’t explained to the viewers (at least, me) at home we’ll enough. 

[SVNBob]

2 hours ago, Nashville said:

We all saw Devon take the Secret Advantage out of his pocket and present it at TC - and given past Survivor history, from Devon's perspective there was absolutely no reason why he should NOT do so.  

Doubly so since he was aware of the other Secret Advantage (thus far).  Remember, Ryan shared the information about the TC1 Super Idol with Devon, including the part about having to give it away if their tribe didn't go to said TC.  So when Devon saw the (dis)Advantage note in his bag at camp, he would logically assume that it was something similar; a gift from an existing ally or a potential ally.

[peachmangosteen]

12 hours ago, Nashville said:

The question is whether Devon ever had any option not to, and IMHO Production did not adequately address that question ...

Someone upthread said that Jeff said in an interview that Devon indeed did not have a choice. He had to use the advantage he received. But I want to know if Jessica was also forced to use it or if she could have decided not to like Ryan and Chrissy were able to do. I'm assuming she was forced to use it though. This advantage was very different from the first one. I kinda like that and hate it at the same time.

Edited October 21, 2017 by peachmangosteen

[fishcakes]

15 minutes ago, peachmangosteen said:

But I want to know if Jessica was also forced to use it or if she could have decided not to like Ryan and Chrissy were able to do. I'm assuming she was forced to use it though.

I don't think she had a choice. From the note she got that was posted above:

23 hours ago, Bryce Lynch said:

"You will send this anonymously to someone on your tribe. They will not know its power until they open it at Tribal Council.  If you win immunity and do not go to Tribal Council, you must send this anonymously to someone on the losing tribe.  They will open it at Tribal Council and discover they are not allowed to vote."

"You will send this" to someone on her own tribe sounds like there might be some wiggle room, but "you must send this" to someone on the losing tribe is pretty clearly mandatory. But really, I think if Jessica's tribe had lost and she'd wanted not to use it, some PA would probably have said, OH NO YOU WILL BE USING IT. So I guess that's my issue with it; whether to use or not use an advantage is a strategic decision that should be left up to the player. Otherwise it's not an advantage, it's just a game twist that could potentially disadvantage the player who gets it because it forces her to make a move she might not necessarily want to make.

[needschocolate]

On 10/20/2017 at 8:09 AM, peachmangosteen said:

I find this sentence confusing. Is it about that fact that a lot of people seem to be confusing Devon with Cole? This season really is hard to follow! 

I can't remember anyone's name (common problem for me) I just went with what someone else called him.  I was talking about the guy who couldn't vote because he got the disadvantage.

[legaleagle53]

1 hour ago, fishcakes said:

I don't think she had a choice. From the note she got that was posted above:

"You will send this" to someone on her own tribe sounds like there might be some wiggle room, but "you must send this" to someone on the losing tribe is pretty clearly mandatory. 

"You will send this" is just as mandatory as "you must send this."  They're both commands to do something -- no wiggle room whatsoever.  If the intent had been to leave the use of the (dis)advantage to the discretion of the holder, the note would have expressly indicated this by saying "you may send this" or "you should send this."

[Guest]

1 hour ago, fishcakes said:

I don't think she had a choice. From the note she got that was posted above:

"You will send this" to someone on her own tribe sounds like there might be some wiggle room, but "you must send this" to someone on the losing tribe is pretty clearly mandatory. But really, I think if Jessica's tribe had lost and she'd wanted not to use it, some PA would probably have said, OH NO YOU WILL BE USING IT. So I guess that's my issue with it; whether to use or not use an advantage is a strategic decision that should be left up to the player. Otherwise it's not an advantage, it's just a game twist that could potentially disadvantage the player who gets it because it forces her to make a move she might not necessarily want to make.

But in this case, what would be the incentive to not use it?  Didn't the note say it was fully anonymous, so whoever she targeted would have no idea who did it to them?  She doesn't even suffer any potential blowback.  Though if it served her later to own up to it for some reason, she could choose to.  

[himela]

On 20/10/2017 at 2:26 AM, LanceM said:

According to Josh Wigler who was present for the first three days of the game none of the Healers or Hustlers saw Chrissy puke after the challenge. Apparently this happened after those other two tribes left. 

It's interesting to find out why the editors made it seem like both of the other tribes were there to see Chrissy puking. Did they want to justify why Ryan chose to give the idol to Chrissy so they make him seem smarter in the future when his decision will have an impact to the game? Or is it something else?

Edited October 21, 2017 by himela

[fishcakes]

4 hours ago, legaleagle53 said:

"You will send this" is just as mandatory as "you must send this."  They're both commands to do something -- no wiggle room whatsoever. 

Maybe. The intent of production in writing that clue is exactly what people are trying to figure out. "You will send this anonymously to someone on your tribe" could be taken as an explanation of how the advantage works, whereas "you must send this anonymously to someone on the losing tribe" is clearly a command. If they wanted to be clear that both were commands, they would have said "you must" in both sentences. You're a lawyer; think of this as a hypo in your most annoying law school class.

4 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

But in this case, what would be the incentive to not use it?  Didn't the note say it was fully anonymous, so whoever she targeted would have no idea who did it to them?  She doesn't even suffer any potential blowback. 

Oh, I must have blanked the fact that the note said it was anonymous, probably because everyone on her tribe knew about it. That makes it less risky, but just regarding advantages in general, I do think it should be up to the player to decide if it's more advantageous to use it or not use it.

Edited October 21, 2017 by fishcakes

[legaleagle53]

9 hours ago, fishcakes said:

Maybe. The intent of production in writing that clue is exactly what people are trying to figure out. "You will" could be taken as an explanation of how the advantage works, whereas "you must" is clearly a command. If they wanted to be clear that both were commands, they would have said "you must" in both sentences. You're a lawyer; think of this as a hypo in your most annoying law school class.

Ex-paralegal, actually (I now read, interpret and process bank-record subpoenas, court orders, and search warrants for a living), but I know the difference between mandatory and permissive or advisory language in law. Any statute, rule, or court order that contains the words "shall" or "will" is mandatory or directory in nature -- no discretion is given regarding how to act or even whether to act.  Permissive or advisory language (which does give the person to whom the statue, rule, or court order is directed discretion as to whether to act) would be words like "may" and "should."  In fact, I once helped write a brief wherein our side made the exact argument that "should" is just as mandatory as its present-tense form "shall" is -- and the court rejected our argument.

Edited October 22, 2017 by legaleagle53

[Lady Writer]

On ‎10‎/‎19‎/‎2017 at 7:06 AM, plurie said:

She really did Devin a favor; now he could claim that he would have voted with either side and there's no way to prove otherwise.

That was my first thought after the vote too.

Edited October 21, 2017 by Lady Writer

[green]

13 hours ago, fishcakes said:

I don't think she had a choice. From the note she got that was posted above:

"You will send this" to someone on her own tribe sounds like there might be some wiggle room, but "you must send this" to someone on the losing tribe is pretty clearly mandatory. But really, I think if Jessica's tribe had lost and she'd wanted not to use it, some PA would probably have said, OH NO YOU WILL BE USING IT. So I guess that's my issue with it; whether to use or not use an advantage is a strategic decision that should be left up to the player. Otherwise it's not an advantage, it's just a game twist that could potentially disadvantage the player who gets it because it forces her to make a move she might not necessarily want to make.

 

11 hours ago, Winston9-DT3 said:

But in this case, what would be the incentive to not use it?  Didn't the note say it was fully anonymous, so whoever she targeted would have no idea who did it to them?  She doesn't even suffer any potential blowback.  Though if it served her later to own up to it for some reason, she could choose to.  

But she does because you told her alliance on her new tribe, the two other "Healers".  And one of them was named Cole.  Now members from the other two original tribes ("Heroes" and "Hustlers" know she did it too.  So if she makes it to merge then EVERYONE will know she targeted Devon.  Even if it worked out for Devon that was not her intent. 

So yeah there can be some very serious blowback.  Especially since Devon has a strong ally in fellow "Hustler" Ryan who has now made a connection with the other tribe ("Heroes") in Chrissy as well. 

It could even possibly end up with the other two tribes ganging up on the "Healers" come the merge as a result since the move showed all the "Healers" were still working together basically.  That is low percentage this move results in that but there is still a possibility it could impact down the line on both her and her allies thanks to Cole, the Mouth That Roared.  At the very least there will be the need to do damage control because of Cole.

[Guest]

Well, I meant in the theoretical scenario, not in this exact instance where she'd already screwed up by telling Cole.   I was arguing that production isn't really screwing a player by forcing them to use this particular advantage, in my opinion.  If a player screws himself, I think that's on them.   

[SVNBob]

Going back to Joe's idol play for a moment:

I've come to realize that since that play protected all of his alliance, it's actually a lower level version of Parvati's Double Idol Play.  Her move is still better, because she need to read someone (Amanda) and it didn't rely on an unexpected assist from another twist to make it fully work.

[ByaNose]

I am curious to see if Joe & Ryan make it to the merge and how they will interact. Devon is tight with Ryan & now knows what Joe is like. Joe and Ryan are polar opposites but both are smart.  Will Joe be super aggressive? or Will he be different with Ryan then he was with Dr. Mike? It should be interesting.

[jay741982]

On 10/20/2017 at 5:06 PM, eel2178 said:

My prediction is two tribes at 12 and the merge will happen at 10. This follows the pattern of previous seasons.

Merge has happened at 13 to 11 in the most recent previous seasons

[KimberStormer]

22 hours ago, green said:

It could even possibly end up with the other two tribes ganging up on the "Healers" come the merge as a result since the move showed all the "Healers" were still working together basically.  That is low percentage this move results in that but there is still a possibility it could impact down the line on both her and her allies thanks to Cole, the Mouth That Roared.  At the very least there will be the need to do damage control because of Cole.

Now I wonder if Jessica picked Devon to make it less obvious that a Healer used the advantage.  Theoretically, nullifying Devon's vote makes it certainly not a Hustler, but could be either a Hero or a Healer.  Though I doubt that was it because that seems like overthinking it.  But I really want to hear from Jessica what her thought process was, because I find that move interestingly perplexing!