S02.E05: The Rise of David Miscaviage

[Guest]

Quote

Leah and Mike spotlight David Miscavige, the head of the Church, and sit down with his former body men, including the former head of security at Gold Base headquarters, to discuss how Miscavige maneuvered his way into power and how he continues to be untouchable.

[WInterfalls]

I'm so excited for this episode! David Miscavige is one scary dude.  

[Neurochick]

David Miscavige better watch his back.  I can see Tom Cruise taking him down.  Two tiny men fighting for power.  Cruise would win because of his fame and the church needs celebrities more than celebrities need the church.

Edited September 13, 2017 by Neurochick

[Tanner]

Is this the first time the word "cult" was used to describe Scientology? It really stood out to me. That and the fact that Micavige was called a psychopath.

[Guest]

On a shallow note, Leah looked gorgeous tonight.

Miscavige fascinates me. I could listen to them tell stories of his antics for hours.

[LegalParrot81]

I don't know that it's so much the rise of David Miscavige, it's more like the over throw by David Miscavige with his goon squad.  This is a scary being.  

It made me sad when JB talked about Miscavige going after Mike.  At his core, I think Mike's always been a good guy and anyone like that I'm sure Miscavige saw as a threat.  

I truly wonder what he's done with Shelley.

[rhys]

I don't know why Hubbard's name annoys me so. Just call him Ron Hubbard. That "L" floating around looks & sounds so stupid.

Now back to wee Davey.

[WInterfalls]

Wow that was amazing! Miscavige is such a psychopath I can't even explain it. My brother was saying that basically he operates like a mafia boss and he's right (no one tell my brother I said that) but yeah he's scary. I really felt for the second guy that was on as he started breaking down at the end. He's right he did do those things but that doesn't mean he isn't deserving of forgiveness just like Mike. 

[mbaywife123]

Would be nice if Davey gave a billon dollars to all of the people suffering now( in the form of the Red Cross donations ect. and not some BS Co$ charities) from the hurricanes/storms in Texas, Caribbean and Florida ect.

 Yes David even you will die one day and guess what, you can't take it with you. Good luck with that debtors burden, may it tie your soul down for many milenioms.

Edited September 13, 2017 by mbaywife123
Because sometimes a WOG needs spell check.

[Auntie Anxiety]

Wee David Miscaviage and his out-sized ego, suffering from Little Man's Syndrome and trying to compensate by being the Co$ overlord really needs to get taken down. I was glad when Leah called the whole thing a cult because it is. It was painful to watch both guys talk about how their souls were sucked out of their bodies and how much they've come to regret all those years lost to such insanity.

[dcubed]

 I think the most telling thing tonight was when Leah said that yes, David Miscavage is a bad guy but if it wasn't him it would be someone else in his place doing the similar things (paraphrasing) because that's what LRH's teachings are :  lie, conceal, attack rather than defend, disconnect, punish...ultimately that "the end justifies the means". Clearing the planet  and preserving Scientology, however you get there, is perfectly fine. I think DM is evil but from what I've seen and read there are probably dozens of evil people in that organization (and at one time, Mike Rinder was one considered one of them).   Everyone we've heard from that blew were in RPF or The Hole, they went from being an oppressor to being oppressed - that's what shook them back to reality.  Paul Haggis might be the first we hear from that didn't receive physical punishment but instead left over philosophical/theological differences.  Ultimately, I agree with Leah, it is the "teachings" of LRH are the source of the problems.  It isn't just DM that needs to be brought down, it's the whole damn church.

[juliet73]

Tonight's episode (as well as last week) definitely felt like S1. 

My heart broke for that security guard. Not only because of the abortion, but also because he referred to his wife as the love of his life; she left him because of the lies the Co$ was telling her about him. Rindah needs to break down like this guy did and just release all this guilt he is holding inside. Just by looking in his eyes, you can see his pain. It's okay Mike...they forgive you, please forgive yourself.

Edited September 13, 2017 by juliet73

[BabyVegas]

If I weren't already convinced of the truth of what Leah, Mike, and all of the guests say, moments like the end of this episode would convince me. You could see it when they all sat down and it stopped being an interview and started being a group therapy session where they all acknowledged how utterly fucked up the whole thing was. The moment seemed almost private.

Aside from that, I thought this was a very important episode. First because culture of an organization flows from the top, so who is leading Scientology is a very important facet of the story. Second I thought it did a great job of showing not just how Miscavige influenced Scientology, but how Scientology influenced Miscavige. Leah said that if it wasn't Miscavige, it would be someone else. And if you look at what Jackson did and you look at what Rinder did, we can see how easily they could have become a Miscavige type. It made me wonder whether Miscavige really is a psychopath who found his fit in Scientology or if he was just a garden-variety asshole who became a thousand times worse on Scientology steroids.

[Shriekingeel]

The producers need to learn the difference between "refute" and "dispute". The Church *disputes* the various testimonies on this show, but unless they possess physical evidence that contradicts them, they aren't "refuting" anything. 

[dwarmed]

As bad as I feel for the people who suffered under Miscavige, the plus side to DM being an out-of-control violent monster is that his behavior is hastening the end of this cult like nothing else. He has forced out so many of the top executives by making their lives unbearable. They are then able and willing to expose the public to what really goes on in Scientology. If he forces out everyone who had the highest positions and declares them all SPs, that proves the whole thing is a sham. How can Co$ help anyone when the people at the top are all unsalvagable evil people?

If these were still the LRH days, the top executives would be able to continue attacking critics and oppressing the lower parisioners in comfort. The public didn't know much about Co$ in those days and may have just thought of them as another kooky group. It's only when the exucutives got the same horrible treatment that it all falls apart.

It's sad to me that most of the Sea Org people being interviewed didn't mind the abuse until it was turned on them. Only a few claimed it was the lies or treatment of others that did it for them. I guess the org is successful at conditioning empathy out of people. 

I have to disagree with a few points Leah made:

1) "There are two sides to David Miscavige, one of then charming." Hmmm, I don't know. Even if I had never heard of him or Scientology, one photo of him and his crazy eyes would make me suspect he is a scary psycho. Listening to him talk for a few minutes would convince me he is a psycho and perhaps the devil incarnate. I think you would have to be born into this madness to see a charming side. 

2) "You were just doing what you're taught." I know Leah wants to provide comfort to those ex-members suffering pain and guilt. I don't like to see them suffer either, but some of their guilt is well-earned. I think it's a little gross to completely excuse behavior on those grounds. If adults turn a blind eye to blatant abuse, they need to be held accountable for that, no matter what they've been taught. Otherwise, who's responsible for anything? Even DM could say he's doing what he's been taught. I think the better stance is to say their guilt is understandable, but they are doing something now to make amends and they shouldn't beat themselves up forever. For Leah to try and deny they did anything wrong isn't really helpful, because they know better. 

It's much easier to understand why people who were raised in Co$ as children stay despite all the horrors. They don't know anything else. What I don't get is why the people who joined as adults, like Leah's mom, looking for a bigger purpose, wanting to help, would stay. I assume the policies of the church would have to be given pretty early on, when someone starts auditing. How did they think a group that doesn't allow parisioners to question, criticise or look for information, encourages attacking critics, tells people to disconnect from family members, has punitive reeducation for members, declares enemies, etc. would bring about spiritual enlightenment, world peace, freedom? Were they just that desperate to believe that the bridge would cure all their problems and give them super powers, and that these bad things that happened to others would never happen to them? That's why I don't believe the people who say their motivation for joining was to help others. Only self interest could make people justify the bad treatment of others. 

[andromeda331]

49 minutes ago, dcubed said:

 I think the most telling thing tonight was when Leah said that yes, David Miscavage is a bad guy but if it wasn't him it would be someone else in his place doing the similar things (paraphrasing) because that's what LRH's teachings are :  lie, conceal, attack rather than defend, disconnect, punish...ultimately that "the end justifies the means". Clearing the planet  and preserving Scientology, however you get there, is perfectly fine. I think DM is evil but from what I've seen and read there are probably dozens of evil people in that organization (and at one time, Mike Rinder was one considered one of them).   Everyone we've heard from that blew were in RPF or The Hole, they went from being an oppressor to being oppressed - that's what shook them back to reality.  Paul Haggis might be the first we hear from that didn't receive physical punishment but instead left over philosophical/theological differences.  Ultimately, I agree with Leah, it is the "teachings" of LRH are the source of the problems.  It isn't just DM that needs to be brought down, it's the whole damn church.

 

46 minutes ago, juliet73 said:

Tonight's episode (as well as last week) definitely felt like S1. 

My heart broke for that security guard. Not only because of the abortion, but also because he referred to his wife as the love of his life; she left him because of the lies the Co$ was telling her about him. Rindah needs to break down like this guy did and just release all this guilt he is holding inside. Just by looking in his eyes, you can see his pain. It's okay Mike...they forgive you, please forgive yourself.

I really liked that Leah pointed that out. Its so easy to blame David Miscavage for everything that is wrong with Scientology. He no doubt is evil and does horrible things. But that still would have happened if anyone else had ended up in control of the church. And it did happen when Hubbard was alive and running Scientology. I've been worried that so many of the stories and abuses have come since David took over that the blame was all going to be laid at his feet and that people would think things were better under Hubbard when that wasn't the case. Things were just as bad under Hubbard. I want David held responsible for everything he's done, but also Hubbard to get the blame he also deserves too.   

[dwarmed]

28 minutes ago, BabyVegas said:

It made me wonder whether Miscavige really is a psychopath who found his fit in Scientology or if he was just a garden-variety asshole who became a thousand times worse on Scientology steroids.

I think DM is the perfect storm of the teachings of an oppressive, punitive system (born out of LRH's mental illness, paranoia, narcissism), and a sociopathic sadistic personality to amplify all the worst elements of said system. Members has already been brainwashed into accepting a punitive way of life and not questioning church authority. What better place for a power-mad abuser. It's both the conditions and the person. 

[MsTree]

3 hours ago, rhys said:

I don't know why Hubbard's name annoys me so. Just call him Ron Hubbard. That "L" floating around looks & sounds so stupid.

I think the "L" is to remind us that he was a "Lunatic".

[CindyBee]

Another amazing episode.   Jackson telling his story was just brutal as No one should  have to go through pressuring someone they love to abort their child.

I do hope one day soon wee Davey will be in jail where he belongs. 

[TaraS1]

I was kind of surprised to hear Leah say that if it wasn't Miscavige doing all that awful stuff, someone else would be in his place.  I guess I wanted to believe the whole thing would collapse without him because no one else could be that evil and ruthless, but obviously that was a naive perspective.

I love hearing from these people who worked so closely with Miscavige, but I still find some of their affects so strange.  I realize most of their emotions are conditioned out of them with all the years of brainwashing, but it's still kind of jarring to see someone like Brousseau smiling through all those crazy stories.  And I found it especially weird that the security guy's eye-opening moment was when they took his badge away.  Not when they convinced him to pressure his wife into an abortion, but when they tore the stripes off his uniform shirt.  That was just beyond me.

[suzeecat]

What kind of "church" locks up followers in their own prison for their own arbitrary reasons and is allowed to take away a human's basic right to freedom without a government trial?  How is this even legal?  And why doesn't the government - or anybody - try to find Shelley?  Is it seriously OK in the U.S. for people to just disappear and because no one formally declares her a missing person it is not investigated? 

[Pondlass1]

Thankfully the majority of us are fitted out with empathy and a conscience.  The two main assets that are mostly responsible for the continuation of the human race.  That these qualities can be beaten and brainwashed away by a cult  is scary.  Cults are scary.  That innocent people can be imprisoned with all rights taken away is mind boggling.  How is this helping the world?  And how much has the Co$ donated to hurricane relief?

I just can't picture wee Miscavige beating up Mike, tho. Mike's a big guy. 

Edited September 13, 2017 by Pondlass1

[Whimsy]

14 minutes ago, Pondlass1 said:

I just can't picture wee Miscavige beating up Mike, tho. Mike's a big guy. 

I had said this last year too, but you just don't fight back against the person you feel is your leader in whatever capacity.  You just let it happen. 

[Jack Terrier]

1 hour ago, suzeecat said:

What kind of "church" locks up followers in their own prison for their own arbitrary reasons and is allowed to take away a human's basic right to freedom without a government trial?  How is this even legal?  And why doesn't the government - or anybody - try to find Shelley?  Is it seriously OK in the U.S. for people to just disappear and because no one formally declares her a missing person it is not investigated? 

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Leah filed a missing person report on Shelley and the police did do a courtesy check and she (Shelley) was found to be fine.  But...... I still don't understand how she has been out of sight for years.

[gesundheit]

This one was particularly illuminating -- it really does seem like a lot of Scientologists who find out real truths about the abuses can soothe themselves with "this is because Miscavige bastardized our beautiful religion!" This is why some people stay in it long past the point of reason, and also why some folks (like the couple from last week) continue to "practice" Scientology after formally leaving the organization. It's too hard for people to see that it's endemic and easily goes back to LRH. And I find that quite sympathetic.

[AZChristian]

I suspect that - as is common with bullies - they attack those larger than them while surrounded by their own henchmen.  I've read numerous reports of Miss Cabbage smacking people around while others were in the room (to protect HIM).  I don't actively remember anyone saying that they were in a room alone with the little twerp when they were smacked around.

[funky-rat]

2 hours ago, suzeecat said:

 Is it seriously OK in the U.S. for people to just disappear and because no one formally declares her a missing person it is not investigated? 

Kind-of.  A legal adult has the right to disappear and not want to be found, provided they didn't disappear to evade criminal prosecution, or the military.  Many times I've seen updates on missing persons cases where the person is found, and they say they don't want contact from their families or whomever is looking for them, and that's the end.  The police will let their families know they're alive, but they don't want contact, and that's usually where it ends.

55 minutes ago, Jack Terrier said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Leah filed a missing person report on Shelley and the police did do a courtesy check and she (Shelley) was found to be fine.  But...... I still don't understand how she has been out of sight for years.

She did, but it's been alleged from a few different sources that local LEO's are in the Scienos pockets, and that they either accepted someone telling them she was OK, or they trotted her out for a cursory look, and they dropped it from there.

[Carolina Girl]

Did I see one of the "commercials" correct - that this series won the "Best Informational Show" Emmy?  That's gotta make Wee Davey worried. 

[Whimsy]

1 hour ago, Jack Terrier said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Leah filed a missing person report on Shelley and the police did do a courtesy check and she (Shelley) was found to be fine.  But...... I still don't understand how she has been out of sight for years.

 

25 minutes ago, funky-rat said:

She did, but it's been alleged from a few different sources that local LEO's are in the Scienos pockets, and that they either accepted someone telling them she was OK, or they trotted her out for a cursory look, and they dropped it from there.

I thought I had read in Leah's book that they asked David if she was missing and he said no and they stopped looking.  It's probably because of what @funky-rat said- they're in David's pockets.

 

1 hour ago, gesundheit said:

This one was particularly illuminating -- it really does seem like a lot of Scientologists who find out real truths about the abuses can soothe themselves with "this is because Miscavige bastardized our beautiful religion!" This is why some people stay in it long past the point of reason, and also why some folks (like the couple from last week) continue to "practice" Scientology after formally leaving the organization. It's too hard for people to see that it's endemic and easily goes back to LRH. And I find that quite sympathetic.

This is what frustrates me the most.  I've heard from many stories, etc, that I've read from the people leaving $cientology that they left because of Miscavige and basically allude that it wasn't so bad until he came into power.  Don't they READ what LRH wrote?  It's all there, right from the beginning.  Yes, DM is a horrible, disgusting, sociopath but so was LRH.  DM is still following the majority of the orders that LRH initiated.  I almost smacked my forehead right at the top of this episode when the first interviewee was still moon-eyed over LRH.  Saying that LRH really believed the crap he wrote and wanted to help people, blah-blah-blah.  Maybe he did but that doesn't take away from the fact that he was batshit crazy!!  I will never, ever, ever get over the directive that a seven year old should not mind being kissed passionately by an adult (or whatever the exact language was).  NEVER.  He was a freaking pedophile... 

[funky-rat]

15 minutes ago, Whimsy said:

I thought I had read in Leah's book that they asked David if she was missing and he said no and they stopped looking.  It's probably because of what @funky-rat said- they're in David's pockets.

This is what frustrates me the most.  I've heard from many stories, etc, that I've read from the people leaving $cientology that they left because of Miscavige and basically allude that it wasn't so bad until he came into power.  Don't they READ what LRH wrote?  It's all there, right from the beginning.  Yes, DM is a horrible, disgusting, sociopath but so was LRH.  DM is still following the majority of the orders that LRH initiated.  I almost smacked my forehead right at the top of this episode when the first interviewee was still moon-eyed over LRH.  Saying that LRH really believed the crap he wrote and wanted to help people, blah-blah-blah.  Maybe he did but that doesn't take away from the fact that he was batshit crazy!!  I will never, ever, ever get over the directive that a seven year old should not mind being kissed passionately by an adult (or whatever the exact language was).  NEVER.  He was a freaking pedophile... 

I have no personal knowledge of that, but it was either in one of last season's eps, or something else I watched where people were escaping from the hole, and thought police would help, and were either taken back, or held while COS was called and they were retrieved.

[suzeecat]

47 minutes ago, Carolina Girl said:

Did I see one of the "commercials" correct - that this series won the "Best Informational Show" Emmy?  That's gotta make Wee Davey worried. 

I would hate to be in the same room with him when he watches these shows.  I wonder how many televisions (and even the room it's in) he has destroyed.  We have heard the boy has a temper...

[MaryMitch]

13 hours ago, deaja said:

On a shallow note, Leah looked gorgeous tonight.

Let me join you in Lake Shallow. She was wearing a color for lipstick, rather than that nude shade which makes her look like she just has a hole in her face.  I normally don't care about this sort of thing, but it's so distracting to me. (I tend to watch people's lips when they talk.)

10 hours ago, andromeda331 said:

I really liked that Leah pointed that out. Its so easy to blame David Miscavage for everything that is wrong with Scientology. He no doubt is evil and does horrible things. But that still would have happened if anyone else had ended up in control of the church. And it did happen when Hubbard was alive and running Scientology. I've been worried that so many of the stories and abuses have come since David took over that the blame was all going to be laid at his feet and that people would think things were better under Hubbard when that wasn't the case. Things were just as bad under Hubbard. I want David held responsible for everything he's done, but also Hubbard to get the blame he also deserves too.   

This episode more than any other made me think "something needs to be DONE!", and it's due to Miscavage. But I agree that it was important for Leah to point out that even though Miscavage is a horrible tyrant, it's the CHURCH that needs to be stopped.

[Lugal]

After watching this one, I get the feeling that if things had been slightly different, Miscavage would have had the heads of his rivals mounted on pikes at Gold Base.

On 9/13/2017 at 7:13 AM, Whimsy said:

I had said this last year too, but you just don't fight back against the person you feel is your leader in whatever capacity.  You just let it happen. 

I remember someone in the first season talked about when Miscavage was beating him how he raised a hand to block the blow and that set Davey off worse, telling his security guys that "he was going to hit me!" which resulted in something like a worse beating and a longer time in the Hole.

On 9/12/2017 at 10:52 PM, dwarmed said:

It's sad to me that most of the Sea Org people being interviewed didn't mind the abuse until it was turned on them. Only a few claimed it was the lies or treatment of others that did it for them. I guess the org is successful at conditioning empathy out of people.

That, sadly, is hardly unique to Scientology.  Look out in the world and you'll see the people most eager to advocate for force or violence, are the ones least likely to believe that said force or violence could be turned on them.

On 9/13/2017 at 5:40 AM, TaraS1 said:

And I found it especially weird that the security guy's eye-opening moment was when they took his badge away.  Not when they convinced him to pressure his wife into an abortion, but when they tore the stripes off his uniform shirt.  That was just beyond me.

That actually makes sense to me.  I can't speak for him, but I guess it's like: I've pressured my wife to have an abortion.  This "greater-good clearing-the-planet" stuff has to be right because otherwise what I have done is unforgivable (and from his reaction recounting it now, he knows that).  But when they tore the stripes off his uniform, it was directed at him, he knew there was no getting around it.

Edited September 14, 2017 by Lugal
grammar

[geekgirl921]

4 hours ago, TaraS1 said:

And I found it especially weird that the security guy's eye-opening moment was when they took his badge away.  Not when they convinced him to pressure his wife into an abortion, but when they tore the stripes off his uniform shirt.  That was just beyond me.

I don't think that's what he was saying. I think when they were interrogating him and especially his wife is when he realized that he was done and announced that he was done; that's when they ripped his badge and stripes off his shirt.

[AZChristian]

It might have been interesting to have Miss Cabbage's father, Ron, on last night's episode.  The way he was treated by his own son was unbelievable.

[iMonrey]

Quote

I just can't picture wee Miscavige beating up Mike, tho. Mike's a big guy. 

So far they have recounted several stories of Miscavage beating up on men about three times his size. It does make me wonder if maybe some of these stories are exaggerated. I don't care how deeply brainwashed you are about your religion, when there's testosterone involved somebody's going to take a swing back at this guy.

I really wonder why Miscavage and/or the Co$ hasn't sued A&E over this show for slander. They're bringing on all these people to talk about how abusive he is and how abusive the church is, and we know the church doesn't shy away from litigation. So why haven't they sued? Is it because they don't want this brought into court where witnesses might corroborate the accusations? Or do they think the show is getting so little attention they don't have to worry about it? Suing would only draw more attention to the show. 

Quote

Did I see one of the "commercials" correct - that this series won the "Best Informational Show" Emmy?  That's gotta make Wee Davey worried. 

I don't see the show listed anywhere in the creative arts Emmy winner list; I believe the show has been nominated for Outstanding Reality Show - Informational, but I don't know if that was included in the Creative Arts category or if they award that during the televised awards this weekend.

There is something wonky about the episode numbering. This episode was preceded by a bumper that said "Episode 4 starts now" but this was episode 5. And the promos for last week were all for this episode, so somehow it looks like 4 and 5 were switched.

Edited September 13, 2017 by iMonrey

[dcubed]

Did I see one of the "commercials" correct - that this series won the "Best Informational Show" Emmy?  That's gotta make Wee Davey worried. 

 

Yes, it's in the Media thread and on Tony Ortega's site.  She won at the Creative Arts Ceremony.

[Guest]

20 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

So far they have recounted several stories of Miscavage beating up on men about three times his size. It does make me wonder if maybe some of these stories are exaggerated. I don't care how deeply brainwashed you are about your religion, when there's testosterone involved somebody's going to take a swing back at this guy.

I think he's protected by his bodyguards at all times.  More than brainwashing, I think knowing (or thinking) that everyone in the room would gang up on you to protect him keeps people from fighting back.

The first guy on the show last night seemed to have more of an axe to grind against DM (not without reason!) so while his story was very powerful in the facts he had, it didn't resonate with me the way Jackson's did. Jackson losing his baby and his wife to Scientology just broke my heart.

[KHenry14]

First, it was just so sad to see those 4 women being interviewed by Anderson Cooper flat out deny everything that we know actually happened. Pathetic  in a way.

 

Funny, to me there wasn't anything new in this episode. Frankly we all know what an animal Miscaivage is, this ep just confirmed more of what we know. 

 

Thirdly, IMO there should be enough for a search warrant to investigate "The Hole". Holding people against their will like that has to be illegal. 

[CindyBee]

I guess I need to dig around on Tony's site to see if he has any information on Jackson as I'm curious to know if he has found "happiness" since leaving---I put happiness in quotes as I'm not sure if that's even possible once you have gone through what he has. 

[trow125]

4 hours ago, Jack Terrier said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe Leah filed a missing person report on Shelley and the police did do a courtesy check and she (Shelley) was found to be fine.  But...... I still don't understand how she has been out of sight for years.

Tony Ortega has written extensively about Shelley over the years, including where she is and credible news of a recent sighting.

[Lugal]

55 minutes ago, iMonrey said:

I really wonder why Miscavage and/or the Co$ hasn't sued A&E over this show for slander. They're bringing on all these people to talk about how abusive he is and how abusive the church is, and we know the church doesn't shy away from litigation. So why haven't they sued? Is it because they don't want this brought into court where witnesses might corroborate the accusations? Or do they think the show is getting so little attention they don't have to worry about it? Suing would only draw more attention to the show.

Partially fear of corroborating witnesses, and partially because they don't want anything about the CO$ entered into the public record.  Also they tend to use lawsuits as a way to wear people down by outspending them.  A&E is partially owned by Disney, so there is no way the CO$ can outspend them.

[Guest]

14 minutes ago, KHenry14 said:

Thirdly, IMO there should be enough for a search warrant to investigate "The Hole". Holding people against their will like that has to be illegal. 

I think that they addressed this last week.  If police came to investigate, the participants (wrong word, but I can't think of  a better one) said they didn't want to leave.  Due to their brainwashing, they by and large think they deserve to be in there.  Same with Shelley.  They said she's such a true devotee to the cause that even if she's of RPF, she likely would say to the cops that she didn't want to leave, it was her choice.

[2727]

Not sure why Miscavige thinks that JB being in a non-executive position in Scientology would be a slam to his credibility. Doesn't mean the man didn't see what he saw and hear what he heard. 

Scientologists are trained to show no reaction when being shouted at (those bull baiting drills!) and as others have said, show little empathy or sympathy (which is very low/bad on the emotional tone scale). They're also thin skinned and REALLY smug and demeaning towards every person on earth who isn't a Scientologist. Rather than helping others, most are startlingly selfish, as shown by their casual willingness to give up their children, parents and spouses in hopes of attaining their own god-hood.

Whatever innate goodness and caring they originally had is killed off by Scientology. On purpose.

Edited September 14, 2017 by 2727

[Rlb8031]

1 hour ago, iMonrey said:

So far they have recounted several stories of Miscavage beating up on men about three times his size. It does make me wonder if maybe some of these stories are exaggerated. I don't care how deeply brainwashed you are about your religion, when there's testosterone involved somebody's going to take a swing back at this guy.

I really wonder why Miscavage and/or the Co$ hasn't sued A&E over this show for slander. They're bringing on all these people to talk about how abusive he is and how abusive the church is, and we know the church doesn't shy away from litigation. So why haven't they sued? Is it because they don't want this brought into court where witnesses might corroborate the accusations? Or do they think the show is getting so little attention they don't have to worry about it? Suing would only draw more attention to the show. 

I forget the guy's name (he was the production guy from Golden Era films), but he said that when he was attacked the Miscavage bodyguards were present. My guess is that Miss Cabbage always has 1-2 guys in the room with him at all times. As for the lawsuit question, remember back to the one case that actually went to trial, CO$ pulled out when the case actually got to court because they didn't want to have their people testify under oath or run the risk of DM being called to testify. Much like the threats of "freeloader contracts" they only pull those tactics on people without deep pockets who they can cower into submission. Nothing submissive about the Mouse & Co.

[3girlsforus]

13 hours ago, dwarmed said:

As bad as I feel for the people who suffered under Miscavige, the plus side to DM being an out-of-control violent monster is that his behavior is hastening the end of this cult like nothing else. He has forced out so many of the top executives by making their lives unbearable. They are then able and willing to expose the public to what really goes on in Scientology. If he forces out everyone who had the highest positions and declares them all SPs, that proves the whole thing is a sham. How can Co$ help anyone when the people at the top are all unsalvagable evil people?

If these were still the LRH days, the top executives would be able to continue attacking critics and oppressing the lower parisioners in comfort. The public didn't know much about Co$ in those days and may have just thought of them as another kooky group. It's only when the exucutives got the same horrible treatment that it all falls apart.

It's sad to me that most of the Sea Org people being interviewed didn't mind the abuse until it was turned on them. Only a few claimed it was the lies or treatment of others that did it for them. I guess the org is successful at conditioning empathy out of people. 

I have to disagree with a few points Leah made:

1) "There are two sides to David Miscavige, one of then charming." Hmmm, I don't know. Even if I had never heard of him or Scientology, one photo of him and his crazy eyes would make me suspect he is a scary psycho. Listening to him talk for a few minutes would convince me he is a psycho and perhaps the devil incarnate. I think you would have to be born into this madness to see a charming side. 

2) "You were just doing what you're taught." I know Leah wants to provide comfort to those ex-members suffering pain and guilt. I don't like to see them suffer either, but some of their guilt is well-earned. I think it's a little gross to completely excuse behavior on those grounds. If adults turn a blind eye to blatant abuse, they need to be held accountable for that, no matter what they've been taught. Otherwise, who's responsible for anything? Even DM could say he's doing what he's been taught. I think the better stance is to say their guilt is understandable, but they are doing something now to make amends and they shouldn't beat themselves up forever. For Leah to try and deny they did anything wrong isn't really helpful, because they know better. 

It's much easier to understand why people who were raised in Co$ as children stay despite all the horrors. They don't know anything else. What I don't get is why the people who joined as adults, like Leah's mom, looking for a bigger purpose, wanting to help, would stay. I assume the policies of the church would have to be given pretty early on, when someone starts auditing. How did they think a group that doesn't allow parisioners to question, criticise or look for information, encourages attacking critics, tells people to disconnect from family members, has punitive reeducation for members, declares enemies, etc. would bring about spiritual enlightenment, world peace, freedom? Were they just that desperate to believe that the bridge would cure all their problems and give them super powers, and that these bad things that happened to others would never happen to them? That's why I don't believe the people who say their motivation for joining was to help others. Only self interest could make people justify the bad treatment of others. 

I "liked" your post but I also wanted to reply to it concerning this particular portion. I understand what you are saying here and in a way I agree. But I don't think that Leah truly believes he didn't do anything wrong. After all, she's called Mike out for his past deeds. She accepts that he's horrified by what he's done but she doesn't pretend he didn't do it. I think what she was trying to do is help Jackson see that he isn't inherently a bad person and he does have the desire and ability to be a good person in the future. I got the feeling that Jackson thinks he is bad because he did those things rather than he did bad things. I'm not sure if I'm making sense in this post but oh well. To me this is a big difference between Jackson (or Rinder or these other guys) and Miscavage. They did bad things that they were raised to do and came to see it was horrible. They left and are trying to do whatever they can to make amends. They aren't denying their deeds or dismissing them. They have consequences. You can see the guilt eating them up. Accountability comes in various forms. Moving forward and finding value in yourself doesn't negate accountability. Miscavage, on the other hand, continues to defend his horrible acts. He wasn't raised in Scientology and then decided 'yikes this is crap'. He was raised in Scientology and decided 'I like power, fear, and money so I will used COS to get it for me'. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if he doesn't believe most or all of the teachings of COS. He's in it to be a little dictator. 

[Quilt Fairy]

The story of how Miscavaige came to power reminded me eerily of how Warren Jeffs took over that fundamentalist Mormon group from his ailing father.  He inserted himself between the other top leaders and his father and one by one got them out of the way.  In the end, although he wasn't necessarily his father's pick to inherit the top position, there was no one left willing to challenge him for it.  And under his leadership, what was already a crazy cult became super-bat-shit-crazy.

[andromeda331]

4 hours ago, MaryMitch said:

Let me join you in Lake Shallow. She was wearing a color for lipstick, rather than that nude shade which makes her look like she just has a hole in her face.  I normally don't care about this sort of thing, but it's so distracting to me. (I tend to watch people's lips when they talk.)

This episode more than any other made me think "something needs to be DONE!", and it's due to Miscavage. But I agree that it was important for Leah to point out that even though Miscavage is a horrible tyrant, it's the CHURCH that needs to be stopped.

Yes exactly. Its the church that needs to be stopped. 

[Carolina Girl]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I really wonder why Miscavage and/or the Co$ hasn't sued A&E over this show for slander.

Because of a process in the law called DISCOVERY.  CO$ would have to start producing documents, records and everyone can be deposed under oath.   I hope they DO sue A&E.  Because I know who A&E's lawyers are.

[ketose]

17 hours ago, rhys said:

I don't know why Hubbard's name annoys me so. Just call him Ron Hubbard. That "L" floating around looks & sounds so stupid.

Now back to wee Davey.

Although LRH existed far beyond his physical form, being called "Lafayette" was too much for him.

 

17 hours ago, mbaywife123 said:

Would be nice if Davey gave a billon dollars to all of the people suffering now( in the form of the Red Cross donations ect. and not some BS Co$ charities) from the hurricanes/storms in Texas, Caribbean and Florida ect.

 Yes David even you will die one day and guess what, you can't take it with you. Good luck with that debtors burden, may it tie your soul down for many milenioms.

I beseech Lord Xenu to imprison his soul in a smelly volcano for 10 billion years.