S07.E04: The Spoils of War

[KungFuBunny]

18 hours ago, huahaha said:

No, the exact dialogue says, "All the gold's safely through the gates in King's Landing." I don't think it could be more explicit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AQtGZYEvFhA&t=220s (0:18)

Aw man....I really want the gold not to make it to the Iron Bank and therefore the debt is not paid

1) Maybe Tarley Senior lied to Jaime and has the gold with plans to hold on to it for better leverage or maybe he was always on Oleanna's side.

2) If the gold really is at KL - is Cersei responsible for the transport of it to Braavos/Iron Bank before the debt is cleared? I mean if all Iron Bank rep has to do is give her a "receipt" there's no reason to not kill him once she has that paper and keep the gold. Or Iron Bank rep could get killed on the way back across the seas and I don't remember an army with him in KL.

[KungFuBunny]

On 8/7/2017 at 9:49 AM, Hanahope said:

Now that Bran gave Arya the VS dagger, you gotta wonder who/what she'll kill with it.  Certainly I expect at some point, she'll use it against a white walker, but she's gotta be using her faceless man skill again to kill someone.  The question is, who will it be, and will it be under the guise of some annonymous servant again (or soldier), or someone we know?  And what was LF doing in giving the dagger to Bran in the first place?  I kindof like that Bran in no uncertain words told LF he was full of shit by repeating back a phrase to him that LF knows Bran shouldn't have known about.  But what and when will Bran actually give Sansa and/or Arya info they can use, or do we have to wait for Jon Snow to return (which I hope is soon, I so much want to see his reunion with Arya)?

Great battle scene at the end.  It didn't look like Drogon was seriously hurt, just initially shocked at being hit.  I know Jamie isn't dead yet, but I bet he has to lose that heavy gold hand to resurface.

While I think Dany will help Jon Snow out before he "bends the knee", I think she feels she has to do some significant damage, more than what we saw, to Cersei before she commits to going north.

I guess we're going to see the Golden Company.  I'm pretty sure Dany encountered or used them in the books, but I can't recall if she did in the show.

Little Finger is not on Arya's list but I hope she is the one to use the dagger on him while she takes on the face of Ned Stark or Caetlyn Stark

I am also hoping the Unsullied use the Lannister soldiers uniforms to infiltrate King's Landing

[Macbeth]

3 hours ago, iMonrey said:

I keep wondering how the dragons would even do in the cold north. I mean, technically they're giant reptiles, right? Could they even survive in frigid temperatures?

Will no one think of the dragons' well being?

I think a lot of fans worry about the dragons' well being.

I love Bronn and Jaime (well, really NCW's fantastic acting) but I was ready to see both die if it meant Drogon was spared.   I saw Bronn running away from that Dothraki and I was rooting for the Dothraki to kill him.

D&D on their commentary was saying it would be hard for fans to root for one side v. other as both sides have members that fans love.  Not me.  I am on Team Drogon all the way, and I am tired of the Lannisters.

[Spaceman Spiff]

19 hours ago, Blonde Gator said:

The Reach is a gigantic grocery store.  The train of wagons was not even a fraction of the food that is in the reach, and I'm not convinced all of the food that was with the Lannister army was torched.  Randyll Tarly stated as much earlier, that the back of the column was so far away that they couldn't do anything if the head of the column was attacked.

Thank you thank you thank you. 13 pages of "Dany shot the food" (I thought I was playing the old Gaunlet arcade game "The Elf shot the food" reading that over and over). The army and those wagon's were at the beginning of the food supply line being brought to KL. The rest of the food is down the road where Randyll went off to "whip" soldiers into moving faster.

[FnkyChkn34]

44 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

D&D on their commentary was saying it would be hard for fans to root for one side v. other as both sides have members that fans love.  Not me.  I am on Team Drogon all the way, and I am tired of the Lannisters.

I'm tired of Lannisters, but I like Bronn.  I root for Jon and the North, but I can't stand Arya.  I don't like Dany, but I like Tyrion.  So I guess I am one of those fans that D&D was talking about.

[Francie]

59 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

I think a lot of fans worry about the dragons' well being.

I love Bronn and Jaime (well, really NCW's fantastic acting) but I was ready to see both die if it meant Drogon was spared.   I saw Bronn running away from that Dothraki and I was rooting for the Dothraki to kill him.

D&D on their commentary was saying it would be hard for fans to root for one side v. other as both sides have members that fans love.  Not me.  I am on Team Drogon all the way, and I am tired of the Lannisters.

The moment when I stopped being Team Dragon: 

 

So count me as Team Lannister. I've enjoyed watching Peter, Lena, Nikolaj, and Charles Dance. Actors at the top of the game. I could never tire of them. 

Edited August 8, 2017 by Francie
The one time autocorrect doesn't change 'fo' to 'of'

[MadMouse]

5 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Wasn't Aemon a disgraced member of the Targaryan family?  I don't recall his entire history, but maybe bringing him up wouldn't win Jon any points?

He was the third son of Maekar and older brother of Aegon the V who was Dany's great grandfather. Aemon was made a maester because at that time there were so many Targs running around. But then war, disease and general Targ crazyness thinned the herd. By then his younger brother Aegon had three sons of his own, so he joined the NW because he didn't want to be used against him. And it was nephew Daeron that the Olenna talks about not wanting to marry. But she was a liar, he was the one who broke the betrothal because he was gay.

[SimoneS]

6 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

It's not Dany if Tyrion isn't mentioning a marriage alliance. And Davos isn't mentioning a marriage alliance. (Hey, gurl, my boy Jon here is single. Why don't we make love not war and we both get what we want?) And Varys isn't mentioning a marriage alliance. And Olenna, that oh-so-famous match-maker (she got her grand-daughter married to not one, but three Kings) isn't mentioning one.

I commented last week that it is annoying plot convenient that none of the people around Dany who have advocated for political marriages at one time or the other have mentioned that marriage is the obvious solution to Dany and Jon's conflict. That Dany would have to enter into a political marriage was the reason given for leaving Daario (who she desperately needs now) in Mereen. 

Jon and Daenerys marrying solves both their problems. Jon would bring the northern lords' oaths and swords whether they want to or not. Daenerys would bring her dragons, army, and fleet. But then all the drama and conflict between them would be gone. 

Edited August 8, 2017 by SimoneS

[Francie]

5 hours ago, Constantinople said:

I'm still not convinced that Randyll Tarly would fight for Cersei instead of Daenerys.

During Robert's Rebellion, the Tarlys fought for the Tyrells/Targaryens.

It's "common rumor", for lack of a better phrase, that Cersei blew-up the Sept of Baelor, see Hot Pie telling Arya at the inn somewhere in the Riverlands.  Thus it's common rumor that Cersei murdered Mace Tyrell, Tarly's liege lord, and his liege lord's children, Margaery and Loras.

Cersei claims the explosion was an accident -- see her chat with Iron Bank rep in a previous episodie -- but the Sept just happens to explode from wildfire on the day of her trial, and she just happens not to be there?  That's one Seven Hells of a coincidence.

Nor is it enough, IMO, to be bribe Tarly by making him Warden of the South.  Tarly could get that anyway from Daenerys since there are no more TV Tyrells around who are men.

So Dany's use of Dothraki just doesn't seem enough reason for Tarly to forgo ancient allegiances in favor of someone with no claim to the throne.

Maybe think of it this way. Tarly's already pissed because his choice is between one of two women.  I get the vibe from him that he has no respect for women. We all get that vibe, yes? 

So, Team Cersei at least has two men aligned with her -- Jaime and Euron.  And Jaime is only absent a missing hand. Otherwise, I can see Tarly respecting him. Because he is a man.

Team Dany, meanwhile, has a eunuch and a dwarf advising her. And, to Tarly, she's a foreigner. 

So, to a prejudiced xenophobe like Tarly, Cersei might seem like the better choice. And it's the 6'' 2' white male who convinces him.  

Edited August 8, 2017 by Francie
Adjectives and nouns are not interchangeable

[SimoneS]

As far I can tell, Tarly betraying Olenna and joining Cersei is a plot device. I can't buy any of the rationale offered up for his treachery. Betraying Olenna who his family served for generations and just when he became her presumptive heir makes absolutely no sense. He didn't even just betray her, he took up arms against her and helped the Lannisters kill her. Also, given that he served the Targaryens and fought for them against Robert, you would think that he would have loyalty remaining to the Targaryen heir. And even if he didn't, he honestly believes that Cersei has some plan that will defeat three dragons and her huge armies and fleets? Tarly should have been at Olenna's side advising Dany on military matters, but then again, he had sided with Dany, the show couldn't rationalize stringing out the conflict with Cersei.

Edited August 8, 2017 by SimoneS

[dragonsbite]

2 hours ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

Thank you thank you thank you. 13 pages of "Dany shot the food" (I thought I was playing the old Gaunlet arcade game "The Elf shot the food" reading that over and over). The army and those wagon's were at the beginning of the food supply line being brought to KL. The rest of the food is down the road where Randyll went off to "whip" soldiers into moving faster.

Exactly!  And when they loaded the wagons at The Reach, I'm pretty sure there was a discussion about farmers not wanting to give up the rest of their harvests -- what's still in the fields and their barns. And that Jaime said something about getting it from them.

Edited August 9, 2017 by dragonsbite
because farmers keep their crops in barns, not bars

[FnkyChkn34]

29 minutes ago, dragonsbite said:

Exactly!  And when they loaded the wagons at The Reach, I'm pretty sure there was a discussion about farmers not wanting to give up the rest of their harvests -- what's still in the fields and their barns. And that Jaime said something about getting it from them.

Right, but it's definitely implied that they got it all now. Bronn was sent to get it, and by the battle, he's back. 

I think their only hope is that the Reach is able to grow more before winter hits them too. 

[Chris24601]

2 hours ago, SimoneS said:

Jon and Daenerys marrying solves both their problems. Jon would bring the northern lords' oaths and swords whether they want to or not. Daenerys would bring her dragons, army, and fleet. But then all the drama and conflict between them would be gone. 

And that bolded bit right there is why Jon wouldn't be interested in a marriage alliance either. His refusal to bend the knee isn't some act of trickery or deception while holding out for a better deal. He's NOT playing THE GAME. His only concern is "How do I best serve the people under my protection?" The answer to that is NOT subjugating himself (which is what a political marriage to Dany would be) to someone who refuses to acknowledge the real danger everyone faces."

Even now Dany is still conditioning her help not just on "once you've bent the knee" but on "after I've won the Iron Throne." Jon knows that help would be much too late so his bending the knee (including marriage) wins his people NOTHING.

A marriage proposal (lets look at how well that worked out for poor Hizdahr) is just another tactic of Dany the Despot's "How do I force a bunch of people to do what they don't want to do because I want to run their lives?"

Edited August 9, 2017 by Chris24601

[Pogojoco]

Just to change the subject from "Dany is the best" to "Dany is a jerk" round and round- 

 

I've re-watched the Field of Fire a few times- I love Jaime's look when he sees/hears Drogon flying over the hill. Especially since N C-W isn't looking at anything, he's just imagining it. From "we got this...." to "Oh.....shit" in 0.5 seconds. I'm obsessed with it. 

The fighting styles demonstrated in that ten or so minutes is some really excellent work. 

I also really liked the bit after Bronn's horse is attacked and he runs around to the scorpion. The low angles, the burning people, the smoke and Drogon flying over- it's hellish and fantastic. 

 

And the sound Drogon made when he gets hit. I love that guy, but it was a cool sound. 

[stagmania]

Saw an interesting analysis of the music that played in the cave scene with Dany and Jon. Apparently, it's a combination of the Dany/Drogo and the Jon/Ygritte love themes.

You can't say they aren't telegraphing it very clearly. 

[Pogojoco]

9 minutes ago, Chris24601 said:

And that bolded bit right there is why Jon wouldn't be interested in a marriage alliance either. His refusal to bend the knee isn't some act of trickery or deception while holding out for a better deal. He's NOT playing THE GAME. His only concern is "How do I best serve the people under my protection?" The answer to that is NOT subjugating himself (which is what a political marriage to Dany would be) to someone who refuses to acknowledge the real danger everyone faces."

Even now Dany is still conditioning her help not just on "once you've bent the knee" but on "after I've won the Iron Throne." Jon knows that help would be much too late so his bending the knee (including marriage) wins his people NOTHING.

A marriage proposal (lets look at how well that worked out for poor Hizdahr) is just another tactic of Dany the Despot's "How do I force a bunch of people to do what they don't want to do because I want to run their lives?"

Yeah, this is the thing that Jon would be thinking. They just put a crown on his head and they also sent him off with "We don't trust the Targs" messaging.  Also, the idea that marriage would end conflict. 

 

Just now, stagmania said:

Saw an interesting analysis of the music that played in the cave scene with Dany and Jon. Apparently, it's a combination of the Dany/Drogo and the Jon/Ygritte love themes.

You can't say they aren't telegraphing it very clearly. 

"Hey kids, remember when both of you were with more interesting partners in earlier seasons?" 

[screamin]

8 hours ago, Tikichick said:

I'm also wondering about what things specifically belonging to Cersei she wants back.  I'm guessing she's referring to Sansa and Tyrion.  We already know it won't be much of a challenge getting past Sansa's guards to attempt to abduct her from WF.  Sure would be a shame if they get thrown off by an "uncanny likeness" and wind up with the wrong sister.

Wouldn't Arya have to cut off Sansa's face to manage that trick?

[benteen]

4 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I'm tired of Lannisters, but I like Bronn.  I root for Jon and the North, but I can't stand Arya.  I don't like Dany, but I like Tyrion.  So I guess I am one of those fans that D&D was talking about.

I didn't want Drogon to be killed but I didn't want Bronn to be killed either.

[Willowy]

I used to love Bronn, finding him refreshing in a world of subterfuge, but he's bitter, greedy, and pretty gross right now. He whines and mopes and spits bile no matter what Jaime asks him to do. Plus, he shot Drogon. Big nope. Take off, hoser.

Jaime... I thought they missed a great death moment for him there. He could've gone out a-horseback, wielding a lance, in full armor, charging a dragon and slaying a queen. Brienne would've had an orgasm if she heard that's how he died. Instead, he's nothing more that Cersei's fuckboy and he won't be able to control her once this is all said and done any more than he can now. I want him to heroically kill Cersei like he did the Mad King, then himself. Sick of them.

[Snakelite]

Could "Winter is Coming" specifically affect the North? There are lands to the South that are desert lands and the southern part of the 7 kingdoms would not be as cold as those in the north and may still have a growing season. I don't remember being told how long the winter will last or how the past winter affected all the kingdoms. We know it's almost always below freezing at the wall now. A major drop in temperature would make the wall unlivable. The severity of winter should vary depending on how far north a kingdom is, unless it's more than just a seasonal change and is something supernatural, perhaps linked to the Night King coming south of the wall. It has occurred to me that if the Night King is defeated, the impending winter might also be defeated.

[Willowy]

Good thought. Also, Dragonstone might be 'immune' to an attack from the dead and the Night King's power due to all that dragonglass. They could grow/raise their own food there if winter is indeed brought by the Night King, and they are unaffected.

[MarySNJ]

11 hours ago, Constantinople said:

I've also noticed that KL is still Baratheon in the credits.

I would argue that's not right, even though Cersei was married to Robert.  When Qyburn proclaimed her Queen, it was "Cersei of the House Lannister"

Maybe it's meant to reflect that Cersei is not the rightful ruler. The last (arguably) legitimate ruler was Robert Baratheon, and as long as the realm accepted Joffrey and Tommen as his legitimate heirs, the crown stag is the right sigil. In my head canon, she's just keeping the seat warm for Gendry - 1st of his name. 

More likely the show runners had other things to spend money and attention on than updating the opening credits.

[rmontro]

7 hours ago, KungFuBunny said:

Little Finger is not on Arya's list but I hope she is the one to use the dagger on him while she takes on the face of Ned Stark or Caetlyn Stark

I'm pretty sure she has to have an actual dead face to wear to pull that trick off.  Ned and Caetlyn would be too decomposed at this point.  There's a process for preserving the faces, which we saw in Braavos.  That's why they can select whichever one they want from their inventory.  

[MadMouse]

Jon's biggest problem is he sounds like the drunk on the corner with cardboard sign saying The End is Here. His other one is a cynical person could think he's making it up to justify breaking his NW vows and making himself legitimate. What I don't think the show has gotten across is how absurd the idea of the WW returning is to most people, even in a world with dragons and magic. I really wonder how many people who weren't at Hardhome or the Fist truly believe him and that's including all the other Northern lords. And if they do, I doubt they grasp the enormity of the threat they bring.  Its going to take something massive for people to truly believe him like the wall falling and by then it will almost be too late. 

[Raachel2008]

23 hours ago, MrsR said:

GRRM is a fool for not hiring ghost writers. He knew the ending when he started.  Just take some of your huge Scrooge McDuck heap of money and come up with an iron clad contract and spend it on some ghost writers. It's such a joke that he hasn't finished these books.

You kidding? Stephen King would have finished the books 12 years go, wrote four different spin-off sagas and found a way to link the NK to the clown in It. Just saying.

 

22 hours ago, iMonrey said:

We know this show only has nine more episodes to go. It's not really going to have time to delve into a protracted winter where people begin to starve for lack of provisions. So I don't really think food shortages are important, big-picture wise. It would of course be of concern within their reality but I don't get a sense that the writers are giving it much thought beyond filler dialogue so they can pay lip service to this long winter that's been forecast for the last seven years.

I disagree. This is what can realistically happens due to food shortages in the next nine episodes:

- Dany needs to feed the Unsullied and the Dothraki; the Unsullied are disciplined and easier to control; while the Dothraki are a bunch of savages and rapists who need their adrenaline high. If there is no food, or they have to start rationing, the Dothraki either leave Westeros (if they can) or they start pillaging. Pillaging = social chaos.

- Cersei needs to feed King's Landing. We've already seen people rebelling - against Joffrey, joining the High Sparrow, etc. If there is  no food, people will start leaving King's Landing or looting. Again, social chaos.

- The North needs to be fed. Winter is there again. But differently than the last time (when Robb and Jon were kids and before Bran was born), this time the North has been through a war that used its men and ressources; it also spent years without a common leader to organize the logistics necessary to make sure everybody gets enough to survive through winter. Ramsay sure wasn't saving grains for winter. This time, they WW are coming, too. As soon as they pass the wall, people will start running  and they won't have time to bring whatever food they have with them. Castle Back, Bear Island, Karhold, they will all go to Winterfell/South putting more pressure on places already streched thin, not to mention the fact that some of those houses were battling against each other until Jon was 'elected' KITN.

What people don't understant about food shortages is that they don't have to last more than a couple of weeks to create havoc within a group, city, society. All you need is a few short food shortages creating a domino effect. Very few things scare people more than famine and create more panic than famine.

Dany can't aford not being able to feed her troops, Cersei can't afford not being able to feed King's Landing. But both of them have other priorities right now, and when food becomes an issue - and it wil  - Dany will have a huge problem with the Dothraki and Cersei will have to use whatever army she has left to control the common folks. 

Edited August 9, 2017 by Raachel2008

[spottedreptile]

1 hour ago, MadMouse said:

Its going to take something massive for people to truly believe him like the wall falling and by then it will almost be too late.

It's a lot like F'lar trying to convince Pern that threads would be falling. Hardly anyone believed him until they actually started to fall, and then of course they were under-resourced and ill-prepared and people died. I think we tend to forget in the age of instant communication that the majority of the populace just don't know what is happening, unless they have access to ravens or are on the spot themselves. Jon can't show them a youtube video as proof, unfortunately. I think this point has been quite well made this season. 

2 hours ago, Snakelite said:

unless it's more than just a seasonal change and is something supernatural, perhaps linked to the Night King coming south of the wall.

I thought that was pretty much established, it's the NK and the Walkers who bring the cold with them. 

[dr pepper]

13 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

Wasn't Aemon a disgraced member of the Targaryan family?  I don't recall his entire history, but maybe bringing him up wouldn't win Jon any points?

Aemon was a possible heir to the throne who went to the wall so the succession would be clear.

[dr pepper]

11 hours ago, KungFuBunny said:

Aw man....I really want the gold not to make it to the Iron Bank and therefore the debt is not paid

One of the court ladies is walking beside the keep when she comes upon The Mountain lying face down on the paving stones, surrounded by blood and shards of glass. Two storeys up is Cersei's bower. The window is broken. The lady rushes up to Cersei's room, past a trail of dead guards, maids, and lanniboy toys. She bursts into the room and sees Cersei there, cleaning a knife. "My queen, what happened?" the lady exclaims. "A queen is not here", replies Cersei, before ripping off her face. Underneath is the face of the lady. Switch scenes to that lady on board a ship, watching King's Landing recede in the distance. Bells begin to ring.

[Oscirus]

16 hours ago, Katsullivan said:

t's not Dany if Tyrion isn't mentioning a marriage alliance. And Davos isn't mentioning a marriage alliance. (Hey, gurl, my boy Jon here is single. Why don't we make love not war and we both get what we want?) And Varys isn't mentioning a marriage alliance. And Olenna, that oh-so-famous match-maker (she got her grand-daughter married to not one, but three Kings) isn't mentioning one.

So unless, we're arguing that every character on the show is suffering amnesia or forgetting the way this world works - and not just Dany even though she clearly knew that when she banished Daario to Mereen a few days ago (which is how long the Narrow Sea crossing takes) - then it's the writing, not the characters. 

How would either side benefit from a marriage? Even if Jon was a game player, Jon would get grief from the north for marrying a targ and Dany gets nothing from the arrangement either since Jon's army is more concentrated on the white walker threat and could care less about Dany's birth right. She'd basically be getting all the benefits she already has while giving up one of her most valuable commodities.

[Chris24601]

9 hours ago, stagmania said:

Saw an interesting analysis of the music that played in the cave scene with Dany and Jon. Apparently, it's a combination of the Dany/Drogo and the Jon/Ygritte love themes.

You can't say they aren't telegraphing it very clearly. 

That one of them will end up dead, probably killed by the other?

Its not like EITHER of those relationships had any sort of happy ending to them. I'd find the odds of them lasting a lot better if they'd created a new piece for them instead of rehashing "music of the dead lovers."

5 hours ago, Raachel2008 said:

I disagree. This is what can realistically happens due to food shortages in the next nine episodes: ... Dany can't aford not being able to feed her troops, Cersei can't afford not being able to feed King's Landing. But both of them have other priorities right now, and when food becomes an issue - and it wil de - Dany will have a huge problem with the Dothraki and Cersei will have to use whatever army she has left to control the common folks. 

Speaking meta-textually, there's a reason Martin chose Sansa to be a main character despite no talent for magic, fighting or even being all that great at politics beyond using courtesy as armor. All she's really got going for her are courage and the common skills of a Westerosi noblewoman. What she does have, both in the books due to her position in the Vale and now on the show, is access/control over a sizeable food supply.

One the show they had enough for everyone already gathered at Winterfell for a year (which per the books should already include a good chunk of the Northern smallfolk who come there as soon as winter hits and also the 'fewer than 10,000 soldiers) BEFORE Sansa started centralizing the North's grain stores there. All those people who will be fleeing the Night King are already sending most of their food stores (while the population of the North has been devastated by the wars, the actual fighting wasn't in the North so much of the food would not have been targeted and destroyed like it was in the Riverlands... ironically that means there's more food available to feed fewer people) there well ahead of the Army of the Dead.

Since Bran is out of the picture as Lord of Winterfeel and Arya doesn't have any interest in ruling, what I think we're seeing set up is Sansa's purpose and endgame... she's going to feed the survivors during the winter as the Lady of Winterfell.

[stagmania]

1 minute ago, Chris24601 said:

That one of them will end up dead, probably killed by the other?

Its not like EITHER of those relationships had any sort of happy ending to them. I'd find the odds of them lasting a lot better if they'd created a new piece for them instead of rehashing "music of the dead lovers."

That they're going to be romantically involved. I don't think it says anything about the chances of success for such a union (I tend to think every romance on this show is doomed). Interesting theory about one killing the other, though. Inadvertently or otherwise.

[YaddaYadda]

8 hours ago, Snakelite said:

Could "Winter is Coming" specifically affect the North? There are lands to the South that are desert lands and the southern part of the 7 kingdoms would not be as cold as those in the north and may still have a growing season. I don't remember being told how long the winter will last or how the past winter affected all the kingdoms. We know it's almost always below freezing at the wall now. A major drop in temperature would make the wall unlivable. The severity of winter should vary depending on how far north a kingdom is, unless it's more than just a seasonal change and is something supernatural, perhaps linked to the Night King coming south of the wall. It has occurred to me that if the Night King is defeated, the impending winter might also be defeated.

We know from WOIAF that there was a winter that lasted 6 years. And we also know that they got the year of the false spring before winter returned to the land and Aerys used his pyromancers and wildfire to try and drive it off. In the six year winter, Egg sent grain to the north because there was a famine. So for sure the more north a kingdom is the more severe winter will be. But snow also falls in the desert. 

But the long night should be entirely different. It's not an ordinary winter like the people are used to. The Others bring the cold with them. Tormund and Val in ADWD describe how difficult it is to breathe when the wights and Others are nearby. It burns the lungs it gets so cold. And from Old Nan's stories, we know that the long night lasted a generation where Westeros was essentially plunged in darkness. Can't grow much of anything if the sun doesn't peak at all. 

This is going to be devastating on all fronts.

[CloudySky]

There were a few reasons I hate the battle scene and it will forever be my least favorite, despite the awesome dragon action:

- Dany burning the food. Whyyyyy? She was complaining that she couldn't feed her dothraki horde 5 minutes ago. Why not fly her dragon to the front of the supply line, burn a row of fire across the road so they are forced to stop (a coupld of carts going up in flames here is inevitable I suppose) and then have the dothraki fight those soldiers while they are shocked and unorganized and secure the food

- Meanwhile she can fly back and crisp those soldiers and archers forming neat lines without burning her Dothraki army and

- scouts are scouting from the sidelines for noble hostages like Jaime, Tarly,... who can be easily surrounded and taken by

- Dothraki who far outnumber the Lannisters who are being burned to a crisp anyway.

 

But I guess being logical is out the window. As well as every character being fair game to die. GoT has become so predictable that I had zero fear Jaime or even Bronn would die and that's the worst crime of all. Where's the show that killed the main character in s01e09??

I feel zero chemistry between Jon and Dany and I hate that this is a storyline we are forced to endure because it's a romance that was always planned. All these BIG MOMENTS are just things I have to endure between small gems (heartbreaking or heartwarming) like unappreciated Meera, Brienne smiling at the Starks,...I've watched that Brienne/Arya fight scene twenty times already not just because of the awesome choreography and humor, but because it feels earned. Not, Jon and Dany are supposed to fall in love so we will put them in a cave, dim the lights, have them stand real close together and there you go...chemistry!

[Normades]

3 hours ago, Oscirus said:

How would either side benefit from a marriage? Even if Jon was a game player, Jon would get grief from the north for marrying a targ and Dany gets nothing from the arrangement either since Jon's army is more concentrated on the white walker threat and could care less about Dany's birth right. She'd basically be getting all the benefits she already has while giving up one of her most valuable commodities.

I think Dany would benefit by gaining control of the lands that Jon is ruling.  I know he holds the north, but doesn't he also hold River Run and the Twins, too?  I'm a little unclear on what his exact holdings are, but either way she gains territory.  Jon benefits from Dany's army, dragons and the small holdings she has: Dragonstone.  Both their armies and territories increase.  Of course, Jon just wants unity and help to fight the WW, but I can definitely see benefit on both sides.  That said, I agree that the north would be quite angry at the alliance and probably see it as a betrayal.

On another point, just gotta say I really loved the battle.  I still think I liked the Battle of the Bastards best, but my favorite part of this one was when the Dothraki rode in and got up on the horses and shot arrows.  I was in complete awe.  I mean, we've heard about them learning to shoot from horseback from childhood, but actually seeing it was incredible!!  I've watched that bit over and over!!

[Macbeth]

8 hours ago, rmontro said:

I'm pretty sure she has to have an actual dead face to wear to pull that trick off.  Ned and Caetlyn would be too decomposed at this point.  There's a process for preserving the faces, which we saw in Braavos.  That's why they can select whichever one they want from their inventory.  

And she has proven the ability to use the faces of those she kills like Walder Frey.

[Normades]

11 minutes ago, Macbeth said:

8 hours ago, rmontro said:

I'm pretty sure she has to have an actual dead face to wear to pull that trick off.  Ned and Caetlyn would be too decomposed at this point.  There's a process for preserving the faces, which we saw in Braavos.  That's why they can select whichever one they want from their inventory.

I'm not clear on that rule because didn't Jaquen at one point appear with Arya's face?

[Tikichick]

11 hours ago, screamin said:

Wouldn't Arya have to cut off Sansa's face to manage that trick?

We don't know that much about how that magic works, or specifically how the magic Arya is using works since a girl is Arya Stark, trained by No One.     

[Drogo]

8 minutes ago, Normades said:

I'm not clear on that rule because didn't Jaquen at one point appear with Arya's face?

Yes.  Right before she went blind.

[jeansheridan]

20 hours ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

He should write faster.  Or, he shouldn't have sold the rights to it to be made into a show yet, because he had to have known that it would pass him.  I hope he changes his mind and starts writing again.

I think it be like The Wheel of Time series. Jordan died and they got Sanderson to finish it based on notes. Not ideal but if the publishers get a good medieval fantasy author, could work. There are some solid children fantasy authors who write fast and may be willing to suppress their egos to finish it in the right way. Kevin Anderson is also a workman fantasy author. Or Salvatore. 

[jeansheridan]

1 hour ago, CloudySky said:

Not, Jon and Dany are supposed to fall in love so we will put them in a cave, dim the lights, have them stand real close together and there you go...chemistry!

I don't feel chemistry (they have more in Emilia's instagram). I feel we are watching two young leaders figure it out. Dany has not had her equal since, well ever. And Jon has never seen a woman in power other than Caitlyn. 

[jeansheridan]

On 8/8/2017 at 11:08 AM, Constantinople said:

So Dany's use of Dothraki just doesn't seem enough reason for Tarly to forgo ancient allegiances in favor of someone with no claim to the throne.

Tarly is also really prejudiced. Look how he treated Gilly just because she came from North of the Wall?  I can imagine him quite easily being so outraged his liege lined herself up with foreigners. Also does Tarly respect a woman ruling? He banished his firstborn for being too weak. Man had some rigid ideas.

Edited August 12, 2017 by jeansheridan

[FnkyChkn34]

22 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

I think it be like The Wheel of Time series. Jordan died and they got Sanderson to finish it based on notes. Not ideal but if the publishers get a good medieval fantasy author, could work. There are some solid children fantasy authors who write fast and may be willing to suppress their egos to finish it in the right way. Kevin Anderson is also a workman fantasy author. Or Salvatore. 

I've never heard of any of these people that you mention, or the book series, but it's not a bad idea.  I think your example is similar to the Girl with the Dragon Tattoo series and author - he passed away and someone else continued the series and wrote a fourth book.

[Drogo]

For such a floghappy horse's ass himself, Lord Tarly sure has some sweet kids.

[Tikichick]

7 minutes ago, jeansheridan said:

I don't feel chemistry (they have more in Emilia's instagram). I feel we are watching two young leaders figure it out. Dany has not had her equal since, well ever. And Jon has never seen a woman in power other than Caitlyn. 

In the interest of full disclosure, I am not in favor of a Dany/Jon romance.  I just don't think it's the most interesting story they could tell with these characters.

In any event I wouldn't expect instant chemistry.  They are simply too different , coming into this with such different experiences, and expectations.  I expected them to be at cross purposes in the beginning, no matter what the end plan may be for them.  There was the expected sense of clash, along with curiosity.  They're steadily measuring the other up, each apparently finding things to respect in the other.  Granted, I think the foreshadowing this week was rather heavy handed trying to show us blossoming romantic chemistry.  Jon rather definitively brushed the idea away when Davos brought it up, seemingly acknowledging he's aware she's attractive -- yet indicating his concern about the NK and WW on the move was still controlling him.  I have less confidence in Danaery's putting her goal as her number one priority without getting distracted.

[FnkyChkn34]

1 hour ago, Normades said:

I think Dany would benefit by gaining control of the lands that Jon is ruling.  I know he holds the north, but doesn't he also hold River Run and the Twins, too?  I'm a little unclear on what his exact holdings are, but either way she gains territory.  Jon benefits from Dany's army, dragons and the small holdings she has: Dragonstone.  Both their armies and territories increase.  Of course, Jon just wants unity and help to fight the WW, but I can definitely see benefit on both sides.  That said, I agree that the north would be quite angry at the alliance and probably see it as a betrayal.

I don't think so - the Freys controlled the Twins, and now that Arya killed him, I think it's unknown who controls anything in that area.  I think that was the point of Ed Sheeran's group of soldiers; they were going to scout it out.  The Tullys controlled Riverrun, but the last we knew, Edmure was a prisoner.  The only area other than the North that Jon could arguably control is the Vale, and he doesn't really control it either.  The Vale is still under Robin Arryn, who for the time being is just aligned with the North under Littlefinger.

[Macbeth]

5 minutes ago, Drogo said:

For such a floghappy horse's ass himself, Lord Tarly sure has some sweet kids.

They have a great mother.  I really loved Sam's mother and sister as well. 

[domina89]

1 hour ago, CloudySky said:

I feel zero chemistry between Jon and Dany and I hate that this is a storyline we are forced to endure because it's a romance that was always planned. All these BIG MOMENTS are just things I have to endure between small gems (heartbreaking or heartwarming) like unappreciated Meera, Brienne smiling at the Starks,...I've watched that Brienne/Arya fight scene twenty times already not just because of the awesome choreography and humor, but because it feels earned. Not, Jon and Dany are supposed to fall in love so we will put them in a cave, dim the lights, have them stand real close together and there you go...chemistry!

I'm not feeling it, either, but I am willing to give it time.  I think Kit and Emilia can bring it, but the writing and directing are causing missed opportunities.  Example- in the cave, when Dany is looking at the cave paintings and Jon is talking about Westeros history, instead of having Dany just stare wordlessly at the paintings, they should have had a close shot of them both with Dany staring at Jon while he was explaining with a look of respect and increasing attraction on her face, then the second he looks at her, have her glance back at the wall so he doesn't see her interest.  Those kind of slow burn, humanizing moments are what we need more of if this is going to be a believable romance, imo.  The build up is everything.

20 minutes ago, Drogo said:

For such a floghappy horse's ass himself, Lord Tarly sure has some sweet kids.

I'm glad someone mentioned this.  I find that highly amusing, too.  Lord Tarly wants tough as nails kids, but they all turned out compassionate and sweet.  I love that Dickon is rattled by attacking his former companions.  He can't confide that to his father, but he tells Jaime and Bronn.  Jaime and Dickon have (or had, in Jaime's case) similar fathers with similar expectations for them both.  Dickon is just a younger version of Jaime, really.

[Heckler52317]

2 hours ago, CloudySky said:

Dany burning the food. Whyyyyy?

I think the proximity to KL is why. Wagons are too slow and they'd be harried all the way to their beachhead by Lannister forces. I see the dothraki/dragon action there to be a raid- destroy and kill then extract. 

[Normades]

33 minutes ago, FnkyChkn34 said:

I don't think so - the Freys controlled the Twins, and now that Arya killed him, I think it's unknown who controls anything in that area.  I think that was the point of Ed Sheeran's group of soldiers; they were going to scout it out.  The Tullys controlled Riverrun, but the last we knew, Edmure was a prisoner.  The only area other than the North that Jon could arguably control is the Vale, and he doesn't really control it either.  The Vale is still under Robin Arryn, who for the time being is just aligned with the North under Littlefinger.

Thanks!  It's been hard to be sure exactly where those areas (River Run and the Twins) stand.  I guess even they're not quite sure.  Either way, the original question was what would Dany gain from an alliance or possible marriage to Jon.  I had forgotten the Vale, which is a pretty sweet prize, too.  So, I think they both still have much to gain from alliance.  It will be interesting to see if it happens and how they navigate the negatives like Jon with a Targaryan and Dany having Jon push her toward fighting the WW and not taking the Iron Throne right now.  

[All That Jazz]

2 hours ago, jeansheridan said:

I think it be like The Wheel of Time series. Jordan died and they got Sanderson to finish it based on notes. Not ideal but if the publishers get a good medieval fantasy author, could work. There are some solid children fantasy authors who write fast and may be willing to suppress their egos to finish it in the right way. Kevin Anderson is also a workman fantasy author. Or Salvatore. 

GRRM said in an interview a few years ago that his estate is arranged so that no one can ever finish any of his unfinished works. It's him or it's no one.